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DarkLink
10-18-2009, 09:36 PM
I rather enjoyed Chumbalaya's Necron thread, so I figured I'd rip off his idea and apply it to my area of expertise (oh, and this is a Holocron (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Holocron)):

Grey Knights (err, Daemonhunters)

A few things first:

Way of the Water Warror (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214): A tactica on Bolter and Chainsword. If you've never read it, do so. Even if you don't play an army that directly benefits from the tactical advice, it will be a very good read. Note, though, that it was written in 4th ed, so some of the stuff doesn't quite match up anymore.

Disclaimer: I haven't played every unit in the army. I play Pure Grey Knights, occasionally with allied sisters. I know how Grey Knights play, and I have a good idea of how other units in the army work. But I won't claim to be an expert on, say, assassins.

Wargear and Rules

Psycannons: You'll notice shortly that I only mentioned psycannons on terminators and inquisitors. That is because psycannons on anything else is a waste. Grey Knights in Power Armor loose their Nemesis Force Weapon and storm bolter when they take a psycannon. And that costs at least 25pts. Way, way too expensive. Two plain Grey Knights is better than one wimpy Grey Knight with a psycannon.

Grey Knight Special Rules: Generally, they suck. Grey Knights pay a lot of points for their special rules, and the rules don't deliver.

Shrouding works like nightfight, but worse. The average enemy roll is 31.5”, meaning you might, if you're lucky, be able to stay out of range of the enemie's heavy support, such as Devestator squads. But how many people take Devestator squads? The point is, with all the close range fighting that goes on in 5th ed, shrouding will fail you again and again.

True Grit is ok, but now everyone and their brother gets a Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW, so Grey Knights have fallen behind the curve. Don't forget that Terminators don't benefit from True Grit (they'd be overpowered if they did, though).

Aegis: Nice little built in psychic hood. Used rarely, and doesn't matter too much, as you could always buy an unlimited range, Ld 10 psychic hood for your GK Hero that can affect ALL enemy psychic powers instead of just ones targeting your units. That's a cheap upgrade, too.

Rites of Exorcism, Daemonic Infestations, etc: Basically, completely worthless. Daemons (but which ones?) count as assaulting into cover against Grey Knights. If you play Daemons a lot, it's ok, but I don't know what GW was thinking making all these Daemon and Chaos specific rules. Grey Knights pay points for rules that are completely worthless against, what, 14 out of 16 armies in the game? No wonder the Codex is so weak.

Units

Grey Knight Hero
A must have. Two ways to go; a hardcore Grand Master (5 str 6 force weapon attacks on the charge on a 3 wound, initiative 5 model) or a cheap Brother Captain. If you need a hard hitting close combat unit, take a Hero with a Terminator Retinue in a Land Raider. If you don't, take a cheap Brother Captain. Now, I only take a Grand Master when I need the Initiative 5. If I don't need the initiative, then you can buy three GK Terminators for the price of a GM. Both have 3 wounds, but the 3 Terminators get a lot more attacks (albeit at I 4).
Here's a useful tip for a Brother Captain; give him a psycannon when he's on his own. He can deepstrike thanks to the Terminator Armor, so if you see the chance to do so, go for it. He's cheap enough to sacrifice, and he has a decent chance of killing something by hitting the rear armor, or being annoying enough to distract your opponent for a little while.
Note: Too much of your other stuff is too expensive to waste may points on wargear here, especially when most of the wargear only works on Daemons or Chaos. Maybe a psychic hood, or a psycannon or incinerator, but keep it cheap. Take advantage of the fact that the Terminator retinue prevents the Hero from being picked out in close combat.

Inquisitor Lord
Rule number 1: Never do a CC-oriented Inquisitor. Rule number 2: Never do a CC-oriented Inquisitor. Rule number 3: Never do a... ok, I think you get it. Grey Knight Heros are better than an Inquisitor lord in CC in every way, shape and form. Anytime you think, “hey, I could do a CC Inquisitor”, smack yourself to bring you back to your senses. You're better served with a normal GK Hero.
Now that we've got that out of the way, there is a way to use Inquisitors. The shooty Inquisitor. Take some warriors with Heavy Bolters, maybe a plasma cannon or multi-melta. Give the Inquisitor a Psycannon. Add mystics, sages, etc as needed. The unit has good firepower for a not-too-horrible price.

Elite Inquisitor
Just a cheaper version of the Lord. There are two additional use here, though. A lone Inquisitor with a psycannon or incinerator is cheap, and can make for a decent addition to another unit, or can be used on his own (like the cheap Brother Captain deepstriking in with a psycannon).
Secondly, take an Inquisitor, two mystics, and stick them in a vehicle. Instant anti-deepstrike area, for cheap.

Daemonhosts
Daemonhosts are... interesting. I've never used them. They're really, really random. So much so, that not only does your opponent not know how to handle them, but neither do you know how to use them. They can deepstrike, and can be pretty good in CC, and are fairly tough. But the unpredictablilty keeps them from being good. That said, I can see how they'd be good for messing with your opponent. Deepstrike one or two in, put them in your opponent's face, and let them run wild. Not too competitive, but I'd imagine it'd make for a fair bit of fun.

Assassins
Five types.
Deathcults: Basically little dudes with power weapons that run around like crazy. They're a lot like Lone Wolves, but not nearly as good. They're only T 3 with a 5+ save. One turn of shooting with one unit and your assassin is gone. Even if they're cheap, I don't think they're worth the tiny distraction they'd cause your opponent. If they were as good as Lone Wolves, sure, but they're not.

Vindicare: Looks great on paper, but tough to use in game. Hitting a 2+, wounding on a 4+, AP2 means he can kill a few models dead, but remember he only gets 5-6 shots the whole game, of which only 2-3 will wound. Even with the special ammo and the ability to pick his targets, it'll be tough for him to get his points back. He can be useful for messing with your opponent's plan, though. Your opponent won't be too happy if you get one of his tactical squads stuck in with a Dreadnought, then pick off his Power Fist. So, theoretically useful, but rather luck-based in-game.

Culexus: Enemy taking tons and tons of psykers? Great, go ahead with this guy. Otherwise, not so useful. The only other way to use him is thanks to his pistol. Str 5 AP 2 assault 2, with +1 shot for every psyker within 12”. Put him next to a Psyker Battle squad, and he's suddenly Assault 10 or so. That's very much a one-trick pony, though, and not worth the effort.

Callidus: Has some cool rules. Lets you mess with the deployment of one of your opponent's squads, jump in and out of combat and has a Str 4 power weapon that ignores armor and invulnerable saves. Rather expensive, though. Used well, I've heard she can be fairly good. But overall, I'd say other units are more worthy of the points you spend.

Eversor: Great against Wraithlords and similar, high toughness monstrous creatures. Always wounds on a 4+, with up to 10 attacks on the charge. Of all the assassins, this is probably the one I like best. Between Infiltrate and the 12” charge range, he'll probably be able to get into combat. Haven't played with him, but I might try him out sometime, now that I look at his stats.



Grey Knight Terminators
These guys are your hard hitters. Best unit in the codex. A squad of these jumping out of a Land Raider will kill almost anything, especially if you can afford a pair of Incinerators for the squad. They are fragile, though. Our storm shields only work on one enemy model in cc only, and a 5+ invulnerable won't do so well with how expensive these guys are. With dual Incinerators, these guys brutalize hordes, and with so many Str 6 power weapons, they can kill just about anything else, so long as it doesn't hit first and kill half the squad (use lascannons on Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes).
Note: I wouldn't deepstrike these guys. They're too expensive. Everything in the list is too expensive. You can't afford to have a couple hundred points not show up until turn 5. And when they do show up, they won't be able to assault (where GK Terminators need to be), and they die to plasma, melta, etc. Remember, they're fragile.
Now, you can take psycannons with these guys, as they can move and shoot 36” with them. I've done that before. Thing is, these are your assault guys. You want them in assault. And that means they should be in a Land Raider. Which means you'll probably only get one, maybe two turns of shooting with those oh-so-expensive psycannons. You can make it work, but I've shied away from this. I learned my lesson when I played a game with 3 terminator squads (one as an HQ), three GK troop squads and three Land Raiders. The Terminators had psycannons, so I kept them back to shoot stuff. In the meantime, my GK squads rushed forward in LR's, tearing apart the enemy Plague Marines. Ultimately, though, I didn't have enough Grey Knights, and one squad of Plague Marines lived, causing me to loose the game. After the battle, I realized that if I had charged with the Terminator squads instead of the power armor Grey Knights, I would have won (nothing kills Plague Marines better than Grey Knight Terminators, except Bloodcrushers).

Grey Knights
The core of your list. Every single Daemonhunters army should have at least one squad of Grey Knights. Beyond two, you might be better served with allied Sisters of Battle (for the numbers and melta), but Grey Knights are devastating if used correctly.
If you can, always take 8 Grey Knights. Anything less is too small and fragile. You need the bodies. Anything more, and you can't fit your Grey Knight Hero into the Land Raider (still has a transport capacity of 10). If your Hero has a Terminator Retinue, go ahead and take 10 Knights if you can. But 8 is the magic number the majority of the time. Of course, I used to play a Khorne Berzerker army, so I might be biased.
Grey Knights are good at shooting, but not great. Moving and shooting with a bunch of bolter shots is a great way of whittling enemy units to manageable sizes. But it is the dual Incinerators that really shine. Stick the squad in a Land Raider, tank-shock an enemy unit, and cover them with templates.
Grey Knights are good at assaults. Good but not great. Str 6 and WS 5 are very nice, especially on the Justicar (who has a power weapon). You don't get bonus attacks on the charge (you should), but Grey Knights are just about the shootiest assault unit in the game.
Note that Grey Knights are, in the classic sense of the term, jacks of all trades but masters of none. They are good at just about everything, but not the best. This is their strength and weakness. They are extremely flexible, but very difficult to play well. Kite assault units, whittle them down, then assault. Rush forward in Land Raiders to get to grips with more mobile or shootier units, which you can beat in CC.
On numerous occasions I've stated “I could kill X unit on the charge with my Knights.” Someone from my group will then say, “but that unit would slaughter the Grey knights in close combat”. Well, that's true. Or at least it is until you remember that my Grey knights are charging out of a Land Raider, so the unit it getting a face-full of bolter rounds and a couple of Incinerator templates, all before any attacks are done. Anything that's left gets killed. Have a 10 man squad of marines sitting on an objective? Drive up, shoot and assault. I've done this without loosing a single Grey Knight before. Works great. Grey Knights and Land Raiders are a match made in heaven.


Stormtroopers
Useful insomuch as they give you the ability to take a cheap pair of melta guns in a rhino. Or possibly plasma, if your local meta-game calls for that. Frankly, though, anti-tank is the Daemonhunters weakness, not anti infantry.
It is also important to note that stormtroopers do only one thing better than allied sisters of battle; 5 man suicide squads. If you're taking a 10 man, decked out Stormtrooper squad, you WILL be better served with a 10 woman Sister squad.

Purgation Squads
Grey Knight special weapons are already overpriced, why would I pay even more than normal just so I can get 4 in a squad? Grey Knights are good because they are good at everything; they can shoot well, move well and assault well. Purgation Squads only shoot well, and they cost much, much more than a standard Grey Knight squad. The only two ways I would ever consider taking a Purgation squad would be with 4 Incinerators jumping out of a Land Raider (just for the coolness of it), or 4 psycannons sitting back behind shrouding range. The problem is, the first role is better filled by a normal unit of Grey Knights (or better yet, Terminators) as the unit will be stuck in assault quickly, and the second role is very situational. Against some enemies, sitting back works well, but now everybody is so fast or has some form of deepstriking or outflanking that your unit won't be able to stay hidden behind the Shrouding, negating the only reason to even consider the unit in the first place.
All in all, Purgation Squads can fufil certain roles, but each of those roles are better filled with better, cheaper units elsewhere in the codex. And that's not even mentioning the fact that you NEED all three heavy support slots for Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts.

Orbital Strikes
Kinda, sorta useful. Basically, you buy the strike. Then you pick a piece of terrain just before you an your opponent puts down your models for deployment. The rest of the game, you get to put a Large blast template on that terrain, and hope it scatters and kills something. You can take one and key it in on an enemy objective (as objectives are placed before deployment), and hope it annoys your opponent enough to do some damage. Just don't forget about it.
All in all, your heavy support slots are better used with Land Raiders and Dreadnought.

Land Raider/Crusader:
Mech is the way of 5th edition, and LR's are the only way to mechanize Grey Knights. Every single Daemonhunters list should have at least one Land Raider, just as it should have at least one Grey Knight squad. You get up to 3 Land Raiders from the heavy support, and Inquisitors with LR dedicated transports are almost useless (Daemonhunter transports follow the old “only useable by the squad that purchased them” transport rules). Another thing to note; Land Raiders, Crusaders and Dreadnoughts are the only decent anti-tank aside from stormtroopers with meltas (or allied sisters of battle). This means you'll probably need to use all 3 heavy slots, every single game. I routinely take 3 LR's, and wish I could take 4.
LR's and Crusaders are fairly exchangable. I used to use only normal LR's, but now I've tried out Crusaders. GK Crusaders can move 12” and shoot their Hurricane Bolters, and get free extra armor, so I'd say they're better now. You do need a few Lascannons though, so I'd mix LR types. Try and see what works best for you.
Here, I'll mention one of the great weaknesses of Daemonhunters. Not only do they lack of anti-tank, but they lack transports. Mechanized armies >>> non-mechanized armies in 5th, and daemonhunters need LRs to mechanize Grey Knights. Land Raiders are expensive, and Grey Knights are expensive, meaning your army will be very, very small. My 1000pt list has 13 infantry and 2 Land Raiders. In 1500 pts, I normally take 3 LR's, 2 8 man Grey Knight squads and a 5 man Terminator squad (with the Brother Captain as a Hero). Land Raiders are a vital part of the Grey Knight list, but with the abundance of melta these days, they aren't that intimidating. Your very small infantry numbers can get exposed in a turn, leaving them open to be cut down ruthlessly. This is almost impossible to avoid, except by switching your army to something more competitive.

Dreadnought
Yes, Grey Knights are so bad at Anti-tank, we have to rely on Dreadnoughts sometimes.
All in all, Dreadnoughts are pretty good. WS 5 is nice. The main weapon pretty much needs to be an anti-tank gun, meaning a Multi Melta, TL Lascannon or Autocannon. Due to the need for anti tank, replacing the DCCW with a missile launcher is very popular amongst Daemonhunters players. I'm not a fan of that option, though. I'd keep the DCCW, give it a MM or Lascannon and maybe a Heavy Flamer, then keep it hidden behind my LR's unit I get a chance to pop out and shoot/assault something.


Allies
Ah, the saving grace of competitive Daemonhunters. I can't think of a case when a pair of allied Sisters of Battle squads in Rhino's isn't a good idea. It gives you cheap bodies, melta guns, Rhinos, etc. Now, if you take too many allies there's no point in playing Daemonhunters, just switch to sisters. But a pair of allied SoB with Meltas and Rhinos, and maybe a SoB cannoness, is a good addition to any Daemonhunters army. I'd stick with the allies troops, with maybe cannoness if you have the points. Seraphim are pretty good, too, if you know how to use them.

Similar thing for IG platoons. You get cheap bodies, and some anti-tank. IG also lets you get Sentinels and Leman Russes, if you take enough troops. A few Land Raiders full of Grey Knights behind a row of Chimeras, with a flanking squad of Sentinels has some potential. I mention Sentinels because they let you outflank. Alternative forms of deployment is rare in the Daemonhunters, and having a suicide unit or two coming in from unexpected angles is never a bad thing. Your opponent will probably be focused on your Land Raiders and Knights, letting your Sentinels pop in and blow something up. If they die after that, who cares?

I won't say anything about Space Marine allies. You can't take Grey Knights if you ally in SM's, and if you're playing Pure Inquisition, god help you.


General Advice:
Grey Knights are fragile. Very fragile. They'll make up the core of your list, so use them well. Make sure you get the charge (that's what the LR's are for). Make sure you will win on the charge. That's easier said than done.

Most games will follow one of two patterns. Either the enemy army is better at shooting than you are, but worse at close combat. In that case, work your way towards them, and crush them beneath your boot. Of course, this isn't exactly easy. You'll come to LOVE large LOS blocking terrain that you can sneak you LR's up behind.
In the second case (also the majority of games, in all likelyhood), the enemy will rush you. He'll have Rhino's filled with meltas, assault troops rushing you from every direction, or just a massive green tide surging across the table towards you. When this happens, don't panic. Just run away. No, literally. Kite them as long as you can. Fall back, and use your ability to move and shoot to whittle them down. Then, when they eventually catch up (they will eventually do so, sometimes on the first or second turn), steal their assault. If you're lucky, you'll have blown up key transports, exposed important squads, and can jump forward to do massive damage in one big assault. If you're not lucky, then you're screwed. Good luck.

Allies and other units, like Stormtroopers, are there to support your core of Grey Knights. Rush the sisters forward, blow up stuff with melta guns, rapid fire everything you can, and generally make a ruckus. All the while, your Grey Knights and Land Raiders will be sitting just out of enemy charge range, whittling away with lascannons, hurricane bolters and storm bolters. Then, when the time is just right, rush your Grey Knights forward and smash your opponent.


Sample list:
GK Grand Master (Like I said, don't take much wargear, if any at all)
Cannoness w/ Book of St Lucius, Blessed Weapon, Inferno Pistol
2x8 Grey Knights, 2 Incinerators (Justicars are required in all GK squads)
2x 10 Sisters of Battle 2 Meltaguns Veteran w/ Book of St Lucius, Eviscerator, all in a Rhino
2x Land Raiders Extra Armor,
Grey Knight Dreadnought Multi Melta, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers

That comes out to just over 1800. This is a good time to point out how expensive Grey Knights are. I haven't even bought a Terminator Squad yet.
Anyways, you've got 4 scoring units, and an HQ that can take on almost anything in the game, so long as it isn't I 6 or more. Stick the GM with one of the Knight squads, the Cannoness with the other (only because you can't fit her in one of the Rhinos). Keep the Land Raiders behind the Sisters, and let the Sisters act as your front screen. Then move forward and assault with the Grey Knights and Dreadnought as needed.
I always take Eviscerators on my sisters, as they almost always see combat. Sisters aren't good offensively in combat, but they won't fold easily. Plus, if they can tie up that unit of bikes that was turbo-boosting forward to melta my LR's, that's cool with me. I'm no Sisters expert, though.

If I were to bump this list up to 2000pts, I'd drop the Dreadnought, upgrade it to a Land Raider, and give the Grand Master a Terminator Retinue.

I haven't played much with a list like this (my group normally does 1500pt games), so this list and the tactics used could use some refinements. And, of course, different people play differently, so if you have your own way of doing things, go with it.

Chumbalaya
10-19-2009, 05:53 AM
Very cool. I don't play Inquisition, but GKs have always interested me.

DarkLink
10-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Yeah, I started with a Khorne army, but got tired of only CC after a while (and having my entire army killed by a single unit of Genestealers, which I still despise to this day). I picked up Tau, and had fun with them, but didn't care for their lack of CC. I then picked up some Grey Knights thanks to the awesome models, and started playing about the same time 5th ed came out. I haven't touched my other armies since.

Zman
10-23-2009, 10:56 PM
I have a pure Daemonhunters army, and i almost have the same opinion than you.
This army is like a hammer blow. You must kill your enemy in one and hard strike, and pray for survive after that. :D
Actually this army is much more for fun than for win matches.

DarkLink
10-24-2009, 04:50 AM
I have a pure Daemonhunters army, and i almost have the same opinion than you.
This army is like a hammer blow. You must kill your enemy in one and hard strike, and pray for survive after that. :D
Actually this army is much more for fun than for win matches.

In one of my other threads (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=29032#post29032), one of the repliers asked why I played Grey knights, because I seemed to mention how weak the rules are a lot. I told him "go on the Inquisition section of Bolter and Chainsword and start reading around, and you'll see that every Grey Knight player does exactly this."

I play Grey Knights because I love the models and fluff, and how the units play (good at moving, shooting and assault). But I'm constantly playing uphill battles against stronger codecies. It's hard not to get jaded.

It is wicked cool when you do win, though :D

And Grey Knights are actually really good at Planetstrike