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Lindargo
10-20-2009, 11:33 AM
Ok so these dont have exact wargear, but you can mainly guess. (snipe = with snipers, close range = melta's flamers):

Company Command Squad:
Carapace Armour
Snipers
Banner
Chimera (pretty blank)

Platoon Cmd: Sniper
2x Infantry Squads: Snipe

Platoon Cmd: Close Range
2x Infantry Squad: Close Range (1 includes commisar)

2 Armoured Sentinels (lascannons)

Closed Basilisk OR A Heavy Weapons team with Lascannons + something else (chimerafor other squads?)

Hellhound: smoke & doezer blade

Ok, so the idea is, one group sits forward and try's to keep the enemies at bay (Comissar will hopefully stop them from running). The other group sits back and snipes away.

What do you guys think?
Lindargo,

Lord Azaghul
10-20-2009, 01:12 PM
OK - a few problems here. So what point level are you going for?
CCS: Wha’ts the point in putting them in a chimera? They aren’t troops, and they are probably more survivable in cover. Drop the Carapace armour, the points would be better spent on an advisor.
PCS: No. Snipers at a bs of 3 is a serious waste. And 1 shot sniper squads are also a waste. The only snipers you should have on the field should be BS4 (ratlings/vets/ccs)

PCS2: so is in flamer? Or melta? Commisar – drop him.

Basilisk. I love my basilisk – never play agame with out one

Armour Sentinels: This is basicly a 75pt lascannon. I prefer scout sentinals outflanking (multilaser or autocannon). And again the BS is too low for this gun. IF you really want heavy sentinals take the plasma cannon

Hellhound: the hellhound is fun depending upon your enemy.

Other thoughts Consider taking 1 squad of vets (melta/plasma) in a chimera and dropping the 2nd platoon. Use the spare point to through in a few hw teams.

Lindargo
10-20-2009, 02:40 PM
OK - a few problems here. So what point level are you going for?
CCS: Wha’ts the point in putting them in a chimera? They aren’t troops, and they are probably more survivable in cover. Drop the Carapace armour, the points would be better spent on an advisor.
PCS: No. Snipers at a bs of 3 is a serious waste. And 1 shot sniper squads are also a waste. The only snipers you should have on the field should be BS4 (ratlings/vets/ccs)

PCS2: so is in flamer? Or melta? Commisar – drop him.

Basilisk. I love my basilisk – never play agame with out one

Armour Sentinels: This is basicly a 75pt lascannon. I prefer scout sentinals outflanking (multilaser or autocannon). And again the BS is too low for this gun. IF you really want heavy sentinals take the plasma cannon

Hellhound: the hellhound is fun depending upon your enemy.

Other thoughts Consider taking 1 squad of vets (melta/plasma) in a chimera and dropping the 2nd platoon. Use the spare point to through in a few hw teams.

So you would lose the snipers altogether, keep the CCS on foot and take HW teams instead of the sentinels. Right? Sounds fine to me.

Lindargo.
(and about the Hellhound, ill probably change it depending on what type of opponent im facing.)

SlavesToDarkness
10-20-2009, 03:11 PM
CCS - In my opinion, this is the best Command Squad there is: 3 x Plasma gun, medic in Chimera w/Multilaser and Heavy Flamer.

Chimeras - ALWAYS should have Multilaser and heavy flamer. Sometimes, however, you can switch it up and swap out the Multilaser for heavy bolter.

Platoon 1 - Sniper weapons are useless on BS 3. Cut them. Go with Autocannons instead. Platoon Command, 2 x Squads all w/ Autocannons is only 160pts.

Platoon 2 - Platoon Command w/ Flamers, Squads with Meltaguns.

Sentinels - Disagree. Lascannon Sentinels can be effective. However, Scout Sentinels are better since they're only 50pts with a lascannon that fires as it moves. That's a bargain.

Basilisk vs. Heavy Weapon Squads = Basilisk wins. Better than that: 2 Basilisks. Better than THAT: 3 Basilisks.

Your army is not mobile at all. It will struggle really hard during objective grabbing scenarios. Bring in some valkyries or more chimeras.

TSINI
10-20-2009, 06:02 PM
i too would like to know what points value you're going for here, as this has a huge effect on what your army can achieve - and what you will be facing off against.

for example, in a 500point game, you can go for squads in chimeras bombing about doing grenade "drive bys" or you can go for 500points of infantry loaded up to the 9's with autocannons and hiding behind conscripts

either way has its merits and its downsides. one is fast, but poses only a few targets and can't kill much. the other is static and slow, but can kill lots.

when you hit 1000 points, you need armour, leman russ tanks, executioners, medusas, stormtroopers maybe, valkyries and veterans. you need to pulverise on turn 1 and 2, move in on turn 3 and 4, and drop in more troops to hold objectives on turn 5 and 6.

when you're into 1500points, step up the mobility and increase the armour.

at 2000points, you need to be spending at least 1000points on armour alone, just to truly make your opponent suffer under the big guns, literally kick then enemy army into the floor for trying to assault your frontlines (which nearly every other army is better at than you - except necrons and tau...)

Chumbalaya
10-21-2009, 07:22 AM
Snipers suck, Lascannons Sentinels suck (single BS3 lascannon shot, big whoop), Basilisks suck (huge minimum range forces you to fire direct, then you may as well use a Russ, no AP2, any arty variant is better).

Needs more mobility. Shooty infantry should have autocannons, close up infantry should have meltas, optional power weapons. Vets in Chimeras are cheap and effective vehicle killers and objective nabbers. Vendettas to carry your PCS and blast at long range are great. Medusas are the superior artillery unit.

Grimwar
10-21-2009, 07:35 AM
Ok so these dont have exact wargear, but you can mainly guess. (snipe = with snipers, close range = melta's flamers):

Company Command Squad:
Carapace Armour
Snipers
Banner
Chimera (pretty blank)

Platoon Cmd: Sniper
2x Infantry Squads: Snipe

Platoon Cmd: Close Range
2x Infantry Squad: Close Range (1 includes commisar)

2 Armoured Sentinels (lascannons)

Closed Basilisk OR A Heavy Weapons team with Lascannons + something else (chimerafor other squads?)

Hellhound: smoke & doezer blade

Ok, so the idea is, one group sits forward and try's to keep the enemies at bay (Comissar will hopefully stop them from running). The other group sits back and snipes away.

What do you guys think?
Lindargo,

Carapace armor is a little bit of a waste, especially when you either use cover or use other models to provide cover. That offers the same exact save of 4+.


Basilisks are nice. If you read, you can direct fire anything you see. When indirect firing, it has a minimum range. Either works, and it is a great value for its use. Model it without its big fat blast shield. Remember gun barrels are not considered part of the vehicle as par the model rules of being shot at.


Armored sentinels offer a close combat deterrent for units like marines without a powerfist, and so on. Great if you give them a weapon to get close with, because they will want to move in the way of the oncoming enemy. Give them cheap guns, like heavy flamers.

If you go with scout sentinels, then outflanking a good set of medium guns like autocannons would be prime to hit side armor of things or harass a rear unit or artillery vehicle of sorts. Great harassment unit to charge devistators and the like.


Sniper rifles are a bit of a lesser gun. You will have lots of vehicles and few men, so you cant bring out the sniper rifle's ability with few of them on the table. If you mass them, then it can be of use but otherwise don't bother so much. Grenade launchers will do you better justice here. If you are a static line of lots of men then flamers are better as your men run from a melee combat and you can fire on the enemy your next shooting phase. Having 5+ flamers cover them will wipe them out with the added lasgun fire and the orders that make them shoot more.


Hellhounds are nice. Less killpoints to use for the killy-ness. But, they are short range to an extent and may need to get in the way of your other guns to get the shot. They work best on the flank when you can manage it. But if all you do is use it for its shooting and not take out stuff in cover, or go in after something then your better off getting two chimeras for the same points cost. They are harder to remove as two models, and also hits from longer range with added benefits of being a transport.


Chimeras are among the top end of guns-to-cost ratio for imperial guard. Great for putting heavy weapons teams inside to shoot out of it. Put it in the back, and shooting out of it see's over your other models except for other vehicles. You fire from the top hatch after all, great line of sight value there.


If you run short range command squads, melta or flamer, and best used with vendettas. (I say vendettas because they can move and fire with their missile pods)


Hope that helps enough.

Lord Azaghul
10-21-2009, 07:38 AM
Snipers suck, Lascannons Sentinels suck (single BS3 lascannon shot, big whoop), Basilisks suck (huge minimum range forces you to fire direct, then you may as well use a Russ, no AP2, any arty variant is better).


always helpful and considerate as always! And spoken in such a friendly, instructuctive and patient tone...

BTW: Baslisk and snipers are both ridiuclasly awesome. Indirect fire is very useful, espcially if you're playing dawn of war or table courners, And snipers can take out almost anything.

Lindargo
10-21-2009, 08:40 AM
oh ok, thanks guys!

Chumbalaya
10-21-2009, 10:48 AM
always helpful and considerate as always! And spoken in such a friendly, instructuctive and patient tone...

BTW: Baslisk and snipers are both ridiuclasly awesome. Indirect fire is very useful, espcially if you're playing dawn of war or table courners, And snipers can take out almost anything.

Sorry, some times the truth hurts.

Snipers are terribad, especially if it's just 1 per squad. No kiling power. Maybe Ratlings can see a use, but they aren't scoring and run off the board once you drop 25% of the unit.

Bassies are bad, I'm pretty sure I already covered it. Indirect fire doesn't work when you have a gigantic minimum range.

Lindargo
10-21-2009, 11:05 AM
What about two Griffons then Chumbalaya?

SlavesToDarkness
10-21-2009, 11:54 AM
I just started fielding 2 Griffons, but I don't have enough experience with them yet to have a solid opinion. Work great on Orks though and are very cheap.

I totally disagree with Chumbalaya about the Basilisk. I have totally pounded units who I otherwise would not have been able to reach. Remember: Ordnance Barrage causes pinning AND hits side armor.

In the end, this will be a personal choice for you. Field the artillery piece you enjoy playing with the most and it will perform the best. There is literally NOT a bad artillery choice in the IG codex (except maybe the Deathstrike).

Lord Azaghul
10-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Sorry, some times the truth hurts.

Snipers are terribad, especially if it's just 1 per squad. No kiling power. Maybe Ratlings can see a use, but they aren't scoring and run off the board once you drop 25% of the unit.

Bassies are bad, I'm pretty sure I already covered it. Indirect fire doesn't work when you have a gigantic minimum range.

1 sniper is a squad - yes horrible I agree.

Bassies aren't bad -they just aren't the best in the ordanace battery. S9 Ap3 in never anything you can ignore.

Grimwar
10-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Basilisk in a corner or arriving from reserve to pick your corner, lose one shot, be sure to have a psyker relay dude.

They can direct fire. Even more so, they can move 6" and fire the cannon directly. That much is clear. Indirect fire beyond 36" and thats fine. Personally, I would say direct fire it so you get the -3" to the scatter roll. I see lots of people do that and let it die to fire because its cheap and attracts attention.

Lindargo
10-21-2009, 01:23 PM
oh and its 1000pts.
Lindargo,

Chumbalaya
10-21-2009, 02:45 PM
Griffons are dirt cheap and put out a lot of firepower, I'm a big fan.

S9 AP3 is good for killing marines, that's it. IG have a million ways of doing this better. It doesn't reliably pop AV14, doesn't kill Termies, only stick 1 wound on MCs, and anything worth being shot at it will typically have cover. Griffons wound MEQs on a 2+ like Bassies, but they double the number of hits, forcing more saves and consequently seeing more failed. Griffons also have a very short minimum range and get to re-roll scatter. Bassie has to fire direct from turn 2 and onward, exposing its lovely open-topped AV12. You know what else has to fire directly with AV12? A Medusa, which is better.

Lord Azaghul
10-21-2009, 04:14 PM
Nope.

If you really want to dedicate a heavy support squad to something that can only kill infantry, go right ahead.
Double the shots? Only if you take two griffons - and we all seem to agree that squadroning vehs isn't terribly benefitial. Griffons look fun, but for points I'd rather have a mortar squadron - they kill MEQ with volumn (and I'm sure you don't like mortars either)

No the basilisk isn't a medusa, but nor it is the medusa, its right in between the medusa and the griffon. Neither of those guns are all purpose - the baslisk is. Its basicly S9 vs side armour or S10 Vs front armour - sounds pretty equitable to me. The difference is range, both are opened toped, true the basilsk can't bypass armour 2, but that's why you have plasma or the demolisher - not everything in a guardsman list needs to be AP2.

One of the best things about the new book is that there are so many good, viable options. I'm my opinion only two things really suck in the whole book 1: instant death on hw teams 2: the price of Stormtroopers.

Lindargo
10-22-2009, 10:16 AM
One of the best things about the new book is that there are so many good, viable options. I'm my opinion only two things really suck in the whole book 1: instant death on hw teams 2: the price of Stormtroopers.

Yh i was thinking the other day, both of those suck!

Chumbalaya
10-22-2009, 10:54 AM
Squadroning is a risk, but in certain cases it can be well worth it. Cheap units like Hydras and Griffons can be stuck together easily. Griffons can hide all game since they have such a short minimum range and re-roll scatter.

Mortars are bleh. It's a frag missile, big whoop.

Bassie is jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, but do you need one? Medusas kills infantry just as dead and has plenty of range, but it also pops tanks reliably. In order for the Bassie to hit side armor it has to be indirect, so outside its huge minimum range and it has to not scatter, and you can't reduce scatter by 3 since you're firing indirectly. Medusa wins out unless you have a 10 ft wide board.

The only truly terrible things in the book are Conscripts, Fail'Rahem, Crapkov, Nork, Enginseers, Rough Riders and Ogryns. Stormies are overpriced and overhyped, but workable (suicide melta DS, scouting Chimera), and HWS need to be taken en masse to be effective.

Lord Azaghul
10-22-2009, 03:20 PM
Mortars are bleh. It's a frag missile, big whoop.

Bassie is jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, but do you need one? Medusas kills infantry just as dead and has plenty of range, but it also pops tanks reliably. In order for the Bassie to hit side armor it has to be indirect, so outside its huge minimum range and it has to not scatter, and you can't reduce scatter by 3 since you're firing indirectly. Medusa wins out unless you have a 10 ft wide board.

HWS need to be taken en masse to be effective.

Mortars: that's three frag missiles mister! Hiting in a bunch of Marines a tightly clustered crater 'cause my basilisk just blew up the rhino!

The beauty of mortars is the ability to 6-12 wounds on a 4-6 man MEQ squad - mortars are cheap and they kill by volumn.

Indirect fire: if you have LOS and your using this option you'll be rolling against side armour AND subtracting your BS. That is one benifit the medusa doesn't have. Do your really need a medusa? No...(guard don't need valk's/vend either...)

I don't think one is better then the other they both just have different uses. I'm just waiting to get my next basilisk kit so I can build a medusa.

HW: yes I agree, that's why I take 4 hw squads

SlavesToDarkness
10-22-2009, 04:47 PM
If everything else is equal, I'd still rather have a Griffon than a mortar squad. A Griffon is only 15pts more expensive after all!

However, if your Heavy Support slots are already packed, then the question is a little more tricky.