Adepta Sororitas Operations

[Nabterayl]

So, this is a question that's been on my mind for a while, and I'd love to poll the community's collective knowledge about it. What do we actually know about the sort of operations conducted by the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas?

We know a fair amount about the way space marines prefer to fight, and what they can and can't do. Rapid response and short, hard-hitting operations seem to be the space marine specialty. Their equipment has some glaring holes in it - no heavy artillery (except for orbital bombardment, which has its limitations), no heavy armor*, a low vehicle count per chapter**, no air superiority fighters***. What space marines do have are a lot of mobility options - jump packs, bikes, drop pods, Thunderhawks, teleporters, and very fast vehicles - and superior infantry. They are equipped for, and described as preferring, commando operations - hard-hitting direct assault against high-value targets using their superior mobility to dictate the terms of engagement, after which the marines withdraw**** or turn over operations to forces better equipped to hold ground or fight large-scale conventional battles, such as the Imperial Guard.

What about the Sororitas? What examples do we have of actual battles they've fought that describe the role they play in a battle? What can we say about how they are and are not equipped to fight? What can we say about how often they are seconded to Imperial Guard or marine forces, how often Imperial Guard or marine forces are seconded to them, and how often they fight alone - and under what circumstances?

I'd love to have actual examples to discuss, although in the absence of actual examples, generalized statements in the fluff will do too.

So how about it, Loungers? I'd love to know what you know.

* Yes, they have Land Raiders, but Land Raiders aren't really tanks per se. They're more like glorified infantry fighting vehicles - rock hard, yes, but they function as transports as much as tanks.
** For instance, we know that your typical space marine chapter maintains between 20 and 30 Predators for the entire chapter - a drop in the bucket compared to the number of tanks an Imperial Guard tank regiment fields, and even a small number compared to the number of tanks some infantry regiments field.
*** Yes, Thunderhawk gunships are tough enough to serve as air (and space) superiority fighters. But given the few numbers of Thunderhawks a space marine strike force fields, and their importance to maintaining the strike force's mobility, a force commander will often refuse to contest the skies rather than put his Thunderhawks at risk, as the Avenging Sons' experience on Taros demonstrates. Of course, the Imperial Guard doesn't have any air superiority fighters either, but I think it's fair to say that the independent nature of space marine operations means that space marines operate without air cover more often than do guardsmen.
**** Even during extended operations during which they are operating alone, as Imperial Armour 2 tells us, space marines will typically withdraw to their starship(s) after each individual engagement to rearm and refit. Space marines are not the types to hold ground, and don't even seem to have any logistical support vehicles except for Thunderhawk transporters.

[Aldramelech]

I don't know much about them really, but my perception has always been that they are the Inquisitions SWAT force?

[Scoops]

I thought they fought with other imperial forces, namely, the imperial guard. They're not only warriors, they're symbols of imperial faith, and would be immensely inspiring to the common soldier. They even have rules for their "Acts of Faith". From their lore, it seems that they, unlike space marines, are not entirely dedicated to war. Even those not in the non-militant orders, I'd guess they would spend plenty of time being used as bodyguards for imperial high-ups and the like. So basically -

The Sisters are effective soldiers, but aren't an effective army. They provide supplemental forces to give forces such as the imperial guard more punch and an enormous morale boost.

Plus, they do sting operations for the ecclesiarchy and the inquisition.

[Nabterayl]

So what do we know about the so-called "Wars of Faith?" Who conducts those? With what forces?

I don't know much about them, really, except that I think the Ecclesiarchy declares and prosecutes them. What I don't know is who they prosecute them with. As far as I know the only troops under the Ecclesiarchy's direct control are the Orders Militant. If a "War of Faith" is conducted primarily with Sororitas troops, that would suggest a) that Wars of Faith are fairly small-scale, and b) that Sororitas OMs have more of an ability to engage in pitched battle than do marine chapters, both of which would be interesting facts. But if a "War of Faith" is conducted primarily with "borrowed" Imperial Guard regiments, with the Sororitas providing specialized capabilities, that raises the question of what capabilities they provide or enhance (e.g., would they conduct primarily commando-style operations, as marines would, and/or would they be used to stiffen a battle line, as marines wouldn't?).

[Lord Anubis]

I can't quote anything to back this up, but for some reason I always got the sense the Sisters were the "big guns" the church called in if there was a heretical/ church-threatening situation. They only show up for religous purposes, but they're still far more common than seeing Space Marines.

Your city has an odd little cult that's drawing people away from the local church of the Emperor? Maybe have the arbites look into it. They may call on the local junior inquisitor or maybe even the PDF if the cult is particularly large or well-armed. If it turns out they're really well-armed and maybe having some success with demon-summoning, you declare a War of Faith and call in the local representatives of the Orders Militant. I think they probably act on their own if they are very local (same planet) and probably under Cardinal/ Inquisitional order within a given system or sector.

Calling on Space Marines has always seemed like the absolute last-resort thing, to me. They're the genie in the bottle that can't be controlled once they're unleashed, and I think most of the folks who have the power to call them know this. Yes, they'll wipe out your cultist infestation in 72 hours or less. They'll also level 90% of your hive city in the process, and then maybe kill every fourth person in the hive as a lesson against allowing such deviant behavior on your world.

But the cultists will be dead...;)

[Aldramelech]

We need Melissia to jump in here......

[Emperorsmercy]

Yeah. On the threads that arent discussing sisters of battle melisia comes, but on ones actaully discussing them melisia doesn't.:)

[Melissia]

Hey... I have a life you know...


What do we actually know about the sort of operations conducted by the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas?

Page 7 of C:WH lists several of these. Not gonna do a direct quote, obviously. From the codex, lexicanum, GW's website, and so on, here's what I have found. Note, four of the six founders of the orders participated in their own crusades, leading huge forces of Sisters, Guard, and Astartes until they were finally killed. The other two were less militant in nature, with one, IIRC, actually being a pacifist of sorts (but then, there's so little information about them that I'm really unsure).


1000 Sisters of the Order of the Bloody Rose liberated 100 worlds from a tyrant, supposedly by themselves. I think the impression was that they were supposed to fight on each world one after the other, but I'm not sure, it doesn't go into detail. This order fought alongside the Black Templars during the Vinculus Crusade.


The Order of the Sacred Rose besieged and destroyed the defenders of a "Palace of Radiance", some kind of fortress-temple of a schismatic cult. This was the Order that participated in Soulstorm, although that isn't really canon (even Relic has sort of disowned the storyline in Soulstorm for the most part).


The Order of the Argent Shroud completely wiped out a large mutant population on Charak. They were also present on Armageddon as well. The Flesh Tearers have a bad history with this Order, as during the Battle of Armageddon they slaughtered the militia because of their bloodlust, and the Sisters withdrew rather than try and fight their allies, then reported it to the Inquisition, demanding the destruction of the chapter.


The Order of Our Martyred Lady has a long history of being GW's whipping girls, almost to the point of them becoming the Lamenters of the Sisters of Battle. They took heavy losses attempting to defend shrine worlds against Hive Fleet Leviathan as the populations of those worlds evacuated (probably evacuating slower than normal because of the Ecclesiarchy's nature to want to hold on to ancient relics). They also fought against the Orks on Armageddon, where their numbers went from whatever they were (hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands? The book doesn't say, it gives a fairly large range) to mere hundreds of noviciates.


The Order of the Ebon Chalice has almost no information about it. This is rather peculiar to me, considering it was founded and led by Alicia Dominica, the founder of the Adepta Sororitas. The only mention I could find is in the Dark Heresy rulebook, where the Order of the Ebon Chalice guards the Abby of the Dawn, the primary Sororitas holding in the Calixis sector, and even then there are only twenty five fully fledged Battle Sisters present in that sector (with a far larger number of non-militant Sisters).


The Order of the Valorous Heart have a similar problem with information. They purged Hive Tumulus on planet Fargium, but how or with what resources it doesn't say.


Supposedly, an entire order of Sisters participated in the Therrix Suppression (which seems as likely to me as an entire chapter of Marines, but that's GW for you). While I can't find which order had forces on Sanctuary 101, my guess is that it would be the Order of Our Martyred Lady-- but it's still speculation. An unknown order had forces present during the Gallilenus Heresy, guarding the planet and coming into conflict with Inquisitor Dag. Sororitas of a few orders participated in the 13th Black Crusade and continue to guard Cadia. An unknown order participated against the Tau's latest expansion. The Sisters, of course, participated in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, much like any other crusade led by a living saint, but at the moment I can't find information about which orders (Lexicanum is surprisingly a poor source of information on the Sisters, being extremely vague and often forgetting to mention them at all even if they made major contributions to a battle). Members of several orders participated in the Second Siege of Perlia, but this battle isn't really that useful in determining how the Sisters deploy because most of the forces were mind-controlled, while the rest of the Sororitas presence consisted of a single Battle Sister and a few Noviciates in aged power armor in need of repair. In a note of questionable fluff, a "force of celestians" were completely wiped out by the remnants of the Sons of Malice (which to me smacks of bull****, because that's like having a large force of Sternguard being wiped out... how exactly are you going to put together such a large force of battle-hardened veterans when there's only a few million Sisters at most in the galaxy?), but again, how they fought wasn't stated-- they were just used as a scratching post to make the Sons of Malice seem stronger, so they were probably the Order of Our Martyred Lady :P.




So... that's about all I can find. It's not much, but make of it what you will.

[Just_Me]

The biggest problem in answering this question, to my mind, is that when considering how the Sisters function in battle we have to put them into context with the other forces of the Imperium. Unfortunately we have little or no information on how the sisters are organized, suggestions indicate that at least the main Orders are far more numerous than Space Marines, but are not deployed in numbers as large as the guard. This seems to be because they are very decentralized, any given Order is spread across the galaxy in many different shrines and cathedrals, each such unit lead by a Canoness or Sister Superior (probably depending on the size and prestige of the posting). Each of these units seems to function almost as a Space Marine chapter in miniature in that they represent a discrete and self-contained fighting force. There is little indication that each great Order has any centralized leadership (although there are some suggestion to the contrary), rather it seems that individual units take their orders directly from the Ecclesiarchy.

I think Nabterayl is on the right track looking at the equipment for clues to deployment, we have already noted that the Space Marine and Guard equipment reflects their stated strategic and tactical roles, so it should not be a big step to apply the same logic in reverse to the Sisters. For starters the sisters are even less equipped with armoured support than the Marines they have only two fairly thin skinned tanks and a handful of APCs. Secondly the Sisters are extremely deficient when it comes to long ranged weapons (virtually nothing they have is greater than 24” range). Thirdly they are very heavily armoured by in-universe standards. Fourth while they lack ranged capabilities they are devastatingly well equipped for close ranged firefights, and are particularly adept at defeating technically or numerically superior forces at that range. Finally their acts of faith combined with their highly decorative appearance (you think Astartes are stylized? Take a look at the Exorcist!) makes them very flashy and inspirational.

Given these facts we must conclude that their role, whatever it is, is very specialized and very limited. All things considered it seems that the Sisters would be best suited to defense; mechanized support would be secondary and their short reach would not be a disadvantage as the enemy would be forced to enter their threat range where the Sisters firepower and heavy armour have the overwhelming advantage, finally they would serve as an inspirational and object lesson to all troops fighting with them. This makes perfect sense for their role as the defenders of Ecclesiarchy’s holy sites. On the offense the Sisters would have to be employed as direct assault “storm-troopers” in situations where they would be able to get close to their opponents as fast as possible, especially if supported by some of the Ecclesiarchy’s “disposable” weapons like Penitent Engines and Acro-Flagellants. Therefore while the Guard is designed to dominate the battlefield through massive ranged firepower and have the manpower to undertake holding actions, and the marines are designed to fight ultra high mobility hit-and-fade actions against strong-points, the Sisters function best in defensive low maneuver environments or storm operations.

In wars of faith the sisters would likely function as the spear-tip of offensive operations and the lynchpin of defensive ones. They would not be the line units and foot-soldiers, but would act in support of the Guard and the unreliable Fratris Militia, strengthening their resolve and combat abilities (after all, the Fratris Militia are nothing more than common citizens whipped into religious zeal by the Ecclesiarchy, not professional soldiers).

[RogueGarou]

The type of operation will probably be determined by the Order and by the needs of the situation or mission. For example, there are many non-militant orders who can and do provide assistance to the militant chambers of the Sisterhood and other Imperial forces. I would imagine the Battle Sisters would then try to protect those non-combatants as well as shrines and artifacts of significance to the Ecclessiarchy and modify operations and tactics accordingly. The Sisters seem to me to be a bit more flexible in some ways than other armies because their tasks are often more varied than other forces. For instance, Sisters don't seem to have the naval elements available to a Space Marine force commander. In the Sisters novel a couple of years ago, the Sisters open the novel transporting a dangerous and wanted psyker aboard a non-Ecclissiarchy vessel. Those Sisters were not members of a group dedicated to hunting and eliminating or incarcerating psykers so their equipment and transport was not tailored for that task. However, there are Sisters who fulfill the role of psyker management and are equipped appropriately. There are the Sisters of Silence who come to mind as operating in such a role. Or the Sisters who are guarding the crew of the Eisenstein upon their eventual arrival in Terran space.

If the Sisters are being seconded by an Inquisitor then they may be provided different resources and will carry out operations differently. If they are working with Arbites or in a similar role or perhaps in a more urban environment, they have access to different APCs than a Rhino. They carry out operations against everything from full-blown wartime operations to squad-level skirmishes with cells of heretics. From the fluff, they seem to deploy, arm, and conduct their operations as seen fit by the commander of the operation.

Again, going back to the Sisters novel, when the commander of the convent eventually decides there is a problem requiring the intervention of the Soroitas, it is a total deployment of all resources at her command and is pretty much a fight to utterly destroy the enemy. Until she realized what they were dealing with, the operations to discover the enemy and investigate the circumstances around the psyker escape, it is up to a single, under strength squad of Sisters who had just been mauled by the enemy.

Sometimes a group of Sisters is garrisoning a Shrine or other installation and are limited to just themselves to fight. Those Sisters will use whatever is at hand to fight. Other times that small contingent of Sisters may have a sizable force of militia to assist them or even planetary defense troops.

From artillery to flagellants to penitents to boltguns, the Sisters will use whatever is needed, whenever it is needed. They will deploy whatever is required and act in a fashion that the commander feels is appropriate. They do not seem to have a playbook like the Guard or the Astartes but instead play it by the seat of their pants, err... habits. Or power armor or something.

[Nabterayl]

1000 Sisters of the Order of the Bloody Rose liberated 100 worlds from a tyrant, supposedly by themselves. I think the impression was that they were supposed to fight on each world one after the other, but I'm not sure, it doesn't go into detail.

This is the sort of thing that makes me wish Imperial Armour would do a Sororitas-focused book at some point. Did they liberate 100 worlds through a single strike at the Tyrant of Denescura, whose pocket empire fell apart after Saint Aspira and her brave 1,000 slew him? Did they literally conquer 100 worlds (and if so, against what sort of opposition)? Even granting that this is supposed to be one of the high points of the Bloody Rose's history and that their opposition may have been little better than street rabble, it's almost unbelievable to imagine that 1,000 women could literally fight and win 100 sequential battles, so presumably the true story is somewhat more complicated than that - but we don't get to know.

One thing I note we do know is that the liberation of Denescura is called a "War of Faith." So apparently Wars of Faith can be very small in nature - at least as small as 1,000 sisters.


The biggest problem in answering this question, to my mind, is that when considering how the Sisters function in battle we have to put them into context with the other forces of the Imperium. Unfortunately we have little or no information on how the sisters are organized, suggestions indicate that at least the main Orders are far more numerous than Space Marines, but are not deployed in numbers as large as the guard. This seems to be because they are very decentralized, any given Order is spread across the galaxy in many different shrines and cathedrals, each such unit lead by a Canoness or Sister Superior (probably depending on the size and prestige of the posting). Each of these units seems to function almost as a Space Marine chapter in miniature in that they represent a discrete and self-contained fighting force. There is little indication that each great Order has any centralized leadership (although there are some suggestion to the contrary), rather it seems that individual units take their orders directly from the Ecclesiarchy.
This is certainly the impression I get as well, which actually raises some very interesting questions. Since the Sororitas do not have their own fleets, how are these detachments supplied? We have, to my knowledge, no mention of Sororitas logistical vehicles. Surely they must have some manner of resupplying their sistren in the field (if nothing else, we know that bolt weapons are very low endurance weapons, and given the size and weight of their ammunition, keeping a bolt-equipped unit supplied with ammo must be a non-trivial task). Do they always rely on other arms of the service for logistical support?


For starters the sisters are even less equipped with armoured support than the Marines they have only two fairly thin skinned tanks and a handful of APCs.
Surprisingly, this is untrue. The Immolator's fluff stats are in line with a Razorback's, but it has a slightly lower profile, a slightly slower off-road speed (by 5 kph), and slightly heavier armor (an extra 10mm of armor on the turret). It is also half a ton lighter than the Razorback, which suggests that there's no material difference in the armor technology, either, so an Immolator actually seems to be very slightly tougher than a Razorback. The Exorcist is the real shocker, though. Compared to a Predator, an Exorcist 23% more superstructure armor and 82% more hull armor (54% more hull armor than even a Vindicator). It's also a lot slower - 55/35 kph as opposed to 68/50 kph. And it has a lot less battlefield endurance (48 missiles as opposed to 120 autocannon or unlimited lascannon rounds). Oh, and the Exorcist is twelve tons lighter than a Predator.

The Exorcist has always confused me. It's never been clear to me whether, fluff-wise, it's supposed to be a rocket artillery vehicle a la the MRLS, or whether it's supposed to be a direct-fire missile carrier. If the latter, then its far superior armor compared to a Predator or Vindicator suggests that, in some senses at least, Sisters are better equipped for frontal attacks than are marines.


Secondly the Sisters are extremely deficient when it comes to long ranged weapons (virtually nothing they have is greater than 24” range). Thirdly they are very heavily armoured by in-universe standards. Fourth while they lack ranged capabilities they are devastatingly well equipped for close ranged firefights, and are particularly adept at defeating technically or numerically superior forces at that range. Finally their acts of faith combined with their highly decorative appearance (you think Astartes are stylized? Take a look at the Exorcist!) makes them very flashy and inspirational.
These facts make me wonder whether the Sisters are, in a sense, more like marines (or whatever your national equivalent of the USMC is) than are space marines (who are better analogized to, say, Army Rangers, or whatever your national direct action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action_%28military%29) specialists are). Nobody ever says as much, but I think we must conclude that sisters are an infantry-focused force - their lack of a main battle tank pretty much requires that. Yet compared to marines sisters have several features which imply to me that they don't shy away from conventional engagements as much as marines do. The Exorcist is one. The fact that sisters are more numerous and not as institutionally afraid of death (and thus better able to absorb casualties) is another. And then there's their personal weaponry, which is clearly designed for brutal short-range firefights.

And then there's the mobility issue. Clearly a canoness who as willing to leave her Exorcists behind could match space marines for ground-based speed. But she lacks a Thunderhawk or Valkyrie equivalent to give her force air mobility, and doesn't have access to dedicated assault starships like marines do. Thus, a mechanized Sororitas force lacks the mobility that a mechanized space marine force could have. What about drop pods, though? I know there's some fluff out there somewhere regarding Sororitas and drop pods.


Given these facts we must conclude that their role, whatever it is, is very specialized and very limited. All things considered it seems that the Sisters would be best suited to defense; mechanized support would be secondary and their short reach would not be a disadvantage as the enemy would be forced to enter their threat range where the Sisters firepower and heavy armour have the overwhelming advantage, finally they would serve as an inspirational and object lesson to all troops fighting with them.
I actually come to the opposite conclusion. A defending force with short-range weaponry is at the mercy of an attacker unless the attacker is spectacularly poorly prepared. The attacker can bring up whatever long-range weaponry he wants, and the defender will have no choice but to either accept an indefinite period of shelling or leave her prepared positions to bring the long-range guns under threat. Either response is advantageous to the attacker. The short range and seemingly low endurance of sisters units (as another example, a heavy flamer armed Immolator only carries enough fuel for 20 bursts - compare to the 98 shots a Hellhound carries) suggests to me that they are essentially assault troops, intended for short, fierce offensive engagements that rely heavily on shock.


In wars of faith the sisters would likely function as the spear-tip of offensive operations and the lynchpin of defensive ones. They would not be the line units and foot-soldiers, but would act in support of the Guard and the unreliable Fratris Militia, strengthening their resolve and combat abilities (after all, the Fratris Militia are nothing more than common citizens whipped into religious zeal by the Ecclesiarchy, not professional soldiers).
This I agree with, for the above reasons.


Again, going back to the Sisters novel, when the commander of the convent eventually decides there is a problem requiring the intervention of the Soroitas, it is a total deployment of all resources at her command and is pretty much a fight to utterly destroy the enemy. Until she realized what they were dealing with, the operations to discover the enemy and investigate the circumstances around the psyker escape, it is up to a single, under strength squad of Sisters who had just been mauled by the enemy.
To an extent I agree ... it doesn't seem that Sororitas doctrine is as codified as that of some space marine chapters. On the other hand, they clearly accept some significant restrictions that one would think fits with their battlefield role - for instance, they never seem to use plasma guns, though you would think that plasma guns are a natural complement to meltas.

As for this novel, that is a subject I am keenly interested in. What sorts of operations do we see the Sororitas conducting in Faith and Fire?

[entendre_entendre]

well just looking at their standard equipment upgrades, flamers, and meltas, as well as having rhinos, transports designed for getting to the enemy's face as soon as possible, i would say that the sisters serve as a speartip for other imperial forces (mainly the guard) when the astartes aren't around. with the flamers and meltas, they are perfect for clearing bunkers and fortifications (planetstrike anyone?) while being covered by the guns of the imperial guard. this just seems most likely as they don't have the long range capabilities to out shoot their enemies at long range and have to get close to do the damage. fluff wise, they charge, guard follow. also, they could lead/inspire the guard, but this would only be in small numbers as this would probably be the most effective use of them.

[Melissia]

Do they always rely on other arms of the service for logistical support?

We don't know. That's really the only answer to this. GW has not deemed it important enough to expand upon-- we don't know the answer to any of these questions, and my only speculate. For that matter, for the most part we don't even know how Sororitas are going to get from planet to planet, and from orbit to planet once they arrive, and can only guess that either the Ecclesiarchy has the influence to be able to order Naval units around (which seems unlikely to me) or the Ecclesiarchy is rich enough to pay them off (which is likely... but it just seems like a cheap cop-out IMO).

[Nabterayl]

We don't know. That's really the only answer to this. GW has not deemed it important enough to expand upon-- we don't know the answer to any of these questions, and my only speculate. For that matter, for the most part we don't even know how Sororitas are going to get from planet to planet, and from orbit to planet once they arrive, and can only guess that either the Ecclesiarchy has the influence to be able to order Naval units around (which seems unlikely to me) or the Ecclesiarchy is rich enough to pay them off (which is likely... but it just seems like a cheap cop-out IMO).
The resupply bothers the heck out of me, but I agree we just don't get to know. Both solutions seem equally weird to me - for instance, if you have a fortress convent on Planet X garrisoned by 100 sisters, it would seem weird that you also have some PDF stationed at the same place to provide logistical support. But if the sisters do their own resupply, what do they do it with? Some cargo-carrying Rhino variant? Borrowed Trojans? Yet some operations, such as Saint Aspira's War of Faith, certainly seem to have been conducted without outside support. Sigh.

As for getting from planet to planet, and from orbit to surface, I actually think that's less weird than it first appears. The Guard can't get anywhere without the Navy either, after all, which means Guard operations must be organized at the level of the Departmento Munitorum. I'm not sure it's a question of the Ecclesiarchy ordering the Navy around (although on a small scale I'm sure that happens from time to time) so much as it is the Ecclesiarchy getting one of its own appointed as supreme commander of a particular high command, or convincing the Munitorum to put some naval assets at its disposal for a particular operation. I get the impression that there's enough politicking whenever a high command is established that the Ecclesiarchy could pull something like that off on a semi-regular basis.

[Aegis]

Based on the discussion points already brought forth, it would strike me that the Sister's primary military role (besides defending the faith, of course) would exist as Urban engagement. Evidence of this is the lack of large mechanized resources, and what they have seem designed to either bust bunkers/buildings, or incinerate the insides of them, combined with the serious amount of short/mid ranged weapon that reeks of anti-personal (though, no plasma for some odd reason).

As far as space transportation, considering their working relationship with the Inquisition, and they positions of defenders of the Faith, they probably have no problems calling in favours/pulling strings with the ecclesiarchy, arbites, or munitorium.

[Melissia]

They don't have to pull strings with the Ecclesiarchy... they ARE the Ecclesiarchy :P And noone within the Ecclesiarchy is outside of their authority if they are deemed to be heretical, from the lowliest priest to the Ecclesiarch himself.

Don't forget, the Sisters have always been the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost. Even in C:WH, this much is obvious-- they have an agreement to assist the Inquisition, but their primary duties are towards the Imperial Creed.

[Nabterayl]

Based on the discussion points already brought forth, it would strike me that the Sister's primary military role (besides defending the faith, of course) would exist as Urban engagement.

This seems likely to me - I imagine their role as defenders of the Faith actually results in a lot of urban operations all on its own. A lot of deviant cults either start or end up taking refuge in urban areas, I would think.

[Just_Me]

Surprisingly, this is untrue. The Immolator's fluff stats are in line with a Razorback's, but it has a slightly lower profile, a slightly slower off-road speed (by 5 kph), and slightly heavier armor (an extra 10mm of armor on the turret). It is also half a ton lighter than the Razorback, which suggests that there's no material difference in the armor technology, either, so an Immolator actually seems to be very slightly tougher than a Razorback. The Exorcist is the real shocker, though. Compared to a Predator, an Exorcist 23% more superstructure armor and 82% more hull armor (54% more hull armor than even a Vindicator). It's also a lot slower - 55/35 kph as opposed to 68/50 kph. And it has a lot less battlefield endurance (48 missiles as opposed to 120 autocannon or unlimited lascannon rounds). Oh, and the Exorcist is twelve tons lighter than a Predator.

While I will agree that the in absolute terms Sisters and Space Marines vehicles are roughly equivalent or even favor the Sisters (kudos for going all the way back to IA2 for that data by the way), I was thinking more in terms of the overall flexibility of their motor-pools. In this sense the Immolator can be seen as a rough equivalent to the Razorback rather than the pseudo-battle tank role it seems to fill for the Sisters (for which it is very thin skinned). Despite its heavier armour, the Exorcist is a rough equivalent in role to the Whirlwind. There is no equivalent in the Sister’s motor-pool to either of the Predator variants or to the Vindicator. So while the Sister’s do have vehicles that are at least the equal of those used by the Astartes they lack the versatility of Astartes options .


The Exorcist has always confused me. It's never been clear to me whether, fluff-wise, it's supposed to be a rocket artillery vehicle a la the MRLS, or whether it's supposed to be a direct-fire missile carrier. If the latter, then its far superior armor compared to a Predator or Vindicator suggests that, in some senses at least, Sisters are better equipped for frontal attacks than are marines.

Given the randomness factor in its fire-rate, I always assumed that it was rocket artillery.


I actually come to the opposite conclusion. A defending force with short-range weaponry is at the mercy of an attacker unless the attacker is spectacularly poorly prepared. The attacker can bring up whatever long-range weaponry he wants, and the defender will have no choice but to either accept an indefinite period of shelling or leave her prepared positions to bring the long-range guns under threat. Either response is advantageous to the attacker. The short range and seemingly low endurance of sisters units (as another example, a heavy flamer armed Immolator only carries enough fuel for 20 bursts - compare to the 98 shots a Hellhound carries) suggests to me that they are essentially assault troops, intended for short, fierce offensive engagements that rely heavily on shock.

I suppose I didn’t explain that conclusion properly, while it is true that having no long ranged weapons would be a disadvantage in a siege, where the primary exchanges will be long ranged artillery duels, the same is not true for urban warfare. Given that the Sisters are most likely to be defending a shrine or cathedral, which will most likely be inside a city, their lack of long ranged weapons makes perfect sense.

[Aegis]

They don't have to pull strings with the Ecclesiarchy... they ARE the Ecclesiarchy :P And noone within the Ecclesiarchy is outside of their authority if they are deemed to be heretical, from the lowliest priest to the Ecclesiarch himself.

Don't forget, the Sisters have always been the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost. Even in C:WH, this much is obvious-- they have an agreement to assist the Inquisition, but their primary duties are towards the Imperial Creed.
if only the Inquisition in all things fantasy, reality, and science were always directly tied to, if not a part of, some large, faith based organization

[Nabterayl]

While I will agree that the in absolute terms Sisters and Space Marines vehicles are roughly equivalent or even favor the Sisters (kudos for going all the way back to IA2 for that data by the way), I was thinking more in terms of the overall flexibility of their motor-pools. In this sense the Immolator can be seen as a rough equivalent to the Razorback rather than the pseudo-battle tank role it seems to fill for the Sisters (for which it is very thin skinned). Despite its heavier armour, the Exorcist is a rough equivalent in role to the Whirlwind. There is no equivalent in the Sister’s motor-pool to either of the Predator variants or to the Vindicator. So while the Sister’s do have vehicles that are at least the equal of those used by the Astartes they lack the versatility of Astartes options .
I'm not sure the Exorcist is a Whirlwind equivalent, actually. Has it ever had a direct-fire option, in any codex? I think it might be more like a TOW carrier.


I suppose I didn’t explain that conclusion properly, while it is true that having no long ranged weapons would be a disadvantage in a siege, where the primary exchanges will be long ranged artillery duels, the same is not true for urban warfare. Given that the Sisters are most likely to be defending a shrine or cathedral, which will most likely be inside a city, their lack of long ranged weapons makes perfect sense.
Ah, well, that's fair enough. By the same token though, I imagine they'd make good shock troops if one was attacking an urban center.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Sisters are indeed excellent Shock Troops, in the classical definition of the word. I think in the new codex we will see a return to roots if you will, where they are a far more offensive force than and inquisitor's army.

[Sitnam]

Well I'm not sure is the BOLS codex is anyting to go off of, but if it is fluffy wouldn't that mean they are also used with some regularity to cleanse loyal marines from going traitor by the Inquisition?

[Nabterayl]

There's certainly been fluff to that effect, yes. The forces used to hunt down rogue marine chapters vary - sometimes Sisters do it, sometimes other marines. I get the impression that when Sororitas are used to hunt down rogues it's often in aid of an inquisitor (while I believe a canoness would consider herself justified in hunting down a rogue marine chapter on her own initiative, rogue marines marines are a big enough deal that they typically attract the attention of the Inquisition), and when dealing with inquisitorial forces, anything's fair game. I wouldn't be surprised if the exact forces used would end up being dictated by political concerns such as who feels whose honor is at stake, who has favors to call in with whom, and that sort of thing, more than specific operational concerns.

[RogueGarou]

In Faith and Fire we see the protagonist Sisters squad conduct prisoner transfer and guard duty, investigative functions, dignitary protection, close quarters and ranged combat operations, point defense, assault and room/building clearing, and finally the infiltration and frontal assault on the antagonists complex. Logistical support would seem to come from the Adeptus Ministorum and/or Munitorum. From various snippets here and there it also appears that the amount of naval or fleet support may also depend on the commander of the vessels involved. Some may be more under the sway of the Ecclessiarchy than others and would offer more or less support on those grounds. It has been over a year since I read the book but I seem to recall some of the Arbites they dealt with during the investigation were less than pleased about the Sisters stepping on their toes. Perhaps we will see more if there is another Sisters novel or if they can make a significant appearance in another series. Also, it was never really explained in great detail how missionaries are transported about the galaxy. I think they probably would use similar means, ie a vessel seconded to their use.

The Sisters of Silence or other Sisters serving more closely with the Ordo Hereticus have also been shown to use the Black Ships as transport. Given their nature, the Black Ships can be quite formidable warships but they are tasked to more pressing duties than transporting an army of Sisters and Frateris militia to a crusade.

[imperialsavant]

I'm not sure the Exorcist is a Whirlwind equivalent, actually. Has it ever had a direct-fire option, in any codex? I think it might be more like a TOW carrier.


:rolleyes: Before the WH Codex was printed & playtesting was being done it was considered to give the Exorcist both Direct & Indirect fire capabilities but when the Codex was finally released GW had removed the indirect capability.
This was confirmed by one of the playtesters from the Yahoo Sisters Group.
It now must have line of sight to shoot. In view of the GW model indirect fire would have been sensible.

[imperialsavant]

;) For those wanting some Sisters "fluff" from BL Novels try "Crossfire", the Grey Knights novels plus "Cains Last Stand".
All 3 give varied background to what the Sisters do.

[Gotthammer]

It's severely out of date, but the Rogue Trader blurb on Sisters does have some tidbits:

Rogue Trader, pg 268: "As the power of the Adepus Ministratum has grown, so a multitude of sub-organisations have developed within the compass of the Ecclesiarchy. An interesting example of this is the Adepta Sororitas [note female gendering of Adeptus], an order of devotional warrior women. The Adepta is organised along similar lines to the Space Marines. The Sisterhood, as it is generally known, is led by an Abbess and includes many lesser ranks and offices in a similar way to the Adeptus Astartes.

[Describes convent fortresses on Earth and Ophelia 4 - then the only two bases]

The personnel and fleets of each fortress are commanded by a Prioress under direct supervision of the Abess on Earth.

[Describes hardship, devotion and ritual]

Unquestioned loyalty to the Imperial Cult is vital because the Sisters are expected to maintain a close eye upon all servants of the Imperium. Every single day, squads of battle sisters descend upon unsupecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrong doers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of battle-sistsers travel out to warzones, to the fortress-monastasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."


So they have their own fleets, and the power to test anyone for impurity. They number is not really given however, as though organised like marines, they have two bases worth patrolling the whole Imperium, so I'd say they were always intended to be more numerous. This is of course rather old, but the genetic testing on everyone could easily be done with Inquisitorial mandate under current fluff.

[Crevab]

If the Sisters got as many codex revisions as Marines, their motor pool would be plentiful and diverse too.

[Sitnam]

;) For those wanting some Sisters "fluff" from BL Novels try "Crossfire", the Grey Knights novels plus "Cains Last Stand".
All 3 give varied background to what the Sisters do.

Also dont forget the second Soul Drinkers novel, they got some good playtime. They went head to head in assault with the Soul Drinkers iirc.

[Melissia]

The Sisters also did a good job against the Tyranids when fighting in one of the Cain books, and I mean hand to hand combat using their Bolters+Sarissas as the Tyranids got into close combat. Sisters are, despite their tabletop stats, much, much stronger than any human could hope to be-- their power armor allows them to do amazing things like hold a military-grade heavy bolter and fire it from the hip with the same accuracy as an Astartes would.

It would be no surprise that, unlike normal humans, the Sisters would at least hold their own against Astartes in melee and stand somewhat of a chance, even if they Marines had an obvious advantage due to their biology. The Astartes would probably win, but the Sororitas would certainly stand a better chance than any other human forces except for possibly the Ogryn.

[Just_Me]

I'm not sure the Exorcist is a Whirlwind equivalent, actually. Has it ever had a direct-fire option, in any codex? I think it might be more like a TOW carrier.

it is a Whirlwind equivalent in so far as it is a mid-ranged artillery piece. And I agree that it’s an enigma of sorts, physically the model (the GW one at least, the Forge World one just looks like a Whirlwind) would appear to be a vertical launch missile or rocket system. This would imply either (very) indirect fire “dumb” rockets or guided missiles of some kind. The random impacts suggest rockets to me, but either rockets or missiles launched vertically should be indirect fire, and the launch system does not seem to show any way to alter the launch trajectory. This is has always bugged me about the Exorcist :confused:.

[Nabterayl]

it is a Whirlwind equivalent in so far as it is a mid-ranged artillery piece.

Well, that's just it ... is it a mid-ranged artillery piece? I mean, yes, obviously the Prioris pattern's missiles are fired off-bore, but if the missiles were guided and sufficiently maneuverable they could still be a direct-fire weapon (that would be stupid, but so is making an AFV look like a pipe organ). It takes more than the ability to fire a projectile in an arc to make an artillery piece. Do we have concrete evidence of actual indirect fire?

As imperialsavant says, the 3rd Edition codex, at least, isn't a barrage weapon (does anybody know about the 2nd edition codex?).


The Sisters also did a good job against the Tyranids when fighting in one of the Cain books, and I mean hand to hand combat using their Bolters+Sarissas as the Tyranids got into close combat. Sisters are, despite their tabletop stats, much, much stronger than any human could hope to be-- their power armor allows them to do amazing things like hold a military-grade heavy bolter and fire it from the hip with the same accuracy as an Astartes would.
As I recall, Mel, the sarissa is something of a personal favorite of yours. What can you tell us about it? Is it more than a bayonet? To what extent do the Sororitas view it as a primary weapon?

And speaking of strength, what kind of fluff depictions of Sororitas power armor and bolters do we have? I know this is something that's kind of all over the map on both counts. Simple logic suggests that bolters would actually be lighter (and quieter) than conventional firearms, except that the fluff insists they're large and heavy (and loud, though some writers have tried to retcon that as the sound of the bolt detonations). Sororitas power armor is depicted as anywhere from a 20% increase in strength at the low end to ... I don't even know what at the high end.

[imperialsavant]

Well, that's just it ... is it a mid-ranged artillery piece? I mean, yes, obviously the Prioris pattern's missiles are fired off-bore, but if the missiles were guided and sufficiently maneuverable they could still be a direct-fire weapon (that would be stupid, but so is making an AFV look like a pipe organ). It takes more than the ability to fire a projectile in an arc to make an artillery piece. Do we have concrete evidence of actual indirect fire?

NO, the Codex says you must have "Line of Sight".
As I said in a previous post it was originally intended to give it both Direct & indirect (like the Basilisk) but it got downgraded before the Codex was finally printed. :rolleyes:

[Melissia]

Here's a Boltgun+Sarissa from the Dark Heresy: Inquisitor's Handbook supplement.

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/MkIIScourgeBoltgun.png


Sororitas bolters are depicted as very similar to Astartes bolters. The main difference is that the Sororitas bolters are actually longer, more rifle-like, while having handles made to fit the power-armor clad human hand. The Astartes bolter is kinda short and stubby in comparison, as the Astartes themselves are more easily able to absorb the recoil with their strength.

[Nabterayl]

The Astartes bolter is kinda short and stubby in comparison, as the Astartes themselves are more easily able to absorb the recoil with their strength.
So, nobody bite my head off about this, but does the fluff force us to have bolters with a high recoil? I mean, think about it - it's essentially a .75 caliber Gyrojet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet). Rocket-propelled shells exert less recoil than equivalent conventionally propelled shells (this is easy to understand - a conventional shell expends all of its propellant in the barrel at the instant of firing; a rocket-propelled shell, by definition, expends its propellant over the flight of the shell). Even the bolter fluff specifies that bolts are ejected from the barrel by a small conventional charge, after which the rocket propulsion kicks in - in other words, none of the rocket propulsion is felt by the user as recoil.

The only recoil felt by the user of a bolt weapon is that of a charge only large enough to propel the bolt out the barrel. That would indicate a low-recoil weapon by itself, and the mass of a bolt weapon itself indicates a lower recoil still. In fact, one of the major advantage of rocket-propelled shells is precisely that they have a low recoil and are thus easier to handle (desirable traits in a weapon that's going to be used by forces that are routinely out-numbered).

Given all that, I wonder if it isn't preferable to have a different explanation for the physical characteristics of bolt weapons. The SMG-like form factors of the Astartes boltguns always struck me as in keeping with their role as super-commandos, whereas the slightly longer form factor of the Godwyn-Diaz (which would give it better pointing characteristics) always struck me as being more in keeping with the Sororitas' role as elite but conventional infantry.

[AirHorse]

Sisters power armour is hinted at being pretty damn powerful despite not being able to accomodate the full range of systems that astartes power armour does. It doesnt say if it enhances strength much or not, but it says that it is lacking the advanced strength enhancing and life support systems that astartes power armour has because that requires the black carapace implant to operate. It does however makes it clear that their power armour alone makes them a threat that the majority of imperium armed forces would find very difficult to match.

Their bolters are also refered to as "superior to other weapons of its class" which seems to imply their bolters are pretty damn well made compared to the average boltgun.

Based on the information in the codex(3rd edition) about their basic wargear its quite clear that sisters are definately seriously elite because of their ability to absorb damage that other infantry just couldnt stand up to. They also get access to pretty high quality weaponry, melta weapons and flamers seem to be widely available for them as well as top of the range boltguns, making them just outclass even the likes of stormtroopers in equiptment.

From the rest of the codex it is made pretty clear in the they are the most able warriors an inquisitor to call upon(and by that I assume it means actually give orders to). Im gonna dig out my copy of the older sisters of battle rule book and read through it see if I can find anything to add to this for you guys, but as it is they seem to a heck of alot more than just girls with guns, and from re-reading the information in the context of the discussion it reinforces how damn elite the astartes really are if sisters are leagues above even stormtroopers...

also wanted to add that little link to the gyrojet page was pretty interesting read, cheers for enlightening me :P

[eldargal]

Power armour is power armour, the main difference is that Adepta Sororitas can not fully interface with it due to their lack of certain Space Marine implants. I forget where I read this, sorry, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Melissia]

No, you're right Eldargal. The Black Carapace allows Marines to directly interface with their power armor as if it were part of their body. The Sororitas likely use a much less sophisticated method, perhaps cybernetic implants at most, which isn't as efficient.

As for bolter recoils? Actually, Bolters are a combination fo both traditional guns and gyrojet. Gyrojet weaponry is inherently flawed by itself, as it is near-useless at short range. However, unlike gyrojet weapoinry, bolters are depicted as ejecting casings. So it seems to me that the bolter fires a multi-stage shell-- first, as a traditional shell or slug, and then activating as a rocket after the shell leaves the barrel of the gun.


Nabterayl: The last Cain book depicted a Celestian (a veteran Sister, though this one hadn't taken to the field in a while as she was in a teaching position) in power armor literally jumping over peoples' heads with little effort, launching herself over a heavy weapons position. Sororitas armor is fairly powerful in most depictions, certainly much moreso than it is in the tabletop.

[imperialsavant]

As imperialsavant says, the 3rd Edition codex, at least, isn't a barrage weapon (does anybody know about the 2nd edition codex?).


The original Sisters of Battle Codex from 1997 (yes folks we had our very own codex then!) did not list the Exorcist. The only Sisters Vehicles were the Rhino & Immolator.

If memory serves me correctly the first mention of the Exorcist was in either a Chapter Approved book or Imperial Armour. Forge World then had the Conversion kit plus the Repressor which could be used by either Sisters or Arbites. Unfortunately the Repressor never made it into the WH Codex. :rolleyes:

[AirHorse]

Thats exactly what I just said... they have power armour but lack the full systems because that requires the black carapace....and you read it in the witch hunters codex which is where I said I was reciting this from :/

And power armour isnt just power armour, it comes in lots of different variants which have different effectiveness or capabilities. The armour used by techpriests is very different to that used by astartes and different again to that used by sisters(because of their lack of the black carapace).

[Melissia]

And all of these are very different from the varieties used by civilians-- and even civilian power armor is a world apart from the carapace armor worn by stormtroopers (which itself is military-grade carapace armor, and thus some of the best armor around). Even basic civilian power armor increases strength to the level of an Ork boy. Military-grade (IE, worn by Sororitas, Inquisitors, and Astartes) has a much greater effect.

[Cryl]

Yup power armour the likes of which is issued to the Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas is the be all and end all of power armour, it's the best the Ad Mech can create or maintain (the later in most cases) the only difference in functionality is the Astartes extensive genetic modifications that allow for black carapace interface - I suspect this is what gives the Astartes their interface for auto sense capability.

I wonder what Inquisitors use? I suspect they get the same sort of things as the SoB i.e. no black carapace but would an Ordo Malleus inquistor get an aegis suit for example?

EDIT: I realise this has gone a little off topic but it's still interesting :)

[Faultie]

The original Sisters of Battle Codex from 1997 (yes folks we had our very own codex then!) did not list the Exorcist. The only Sisters Vehicles were the Rhino & Immolator.

If memory serves me correctly the first mention of the Exorcist was in either a Chapter Approved book or Imperial Armour. Forge World then had the Conversion kit plus the Repressor which could be used by either Sisters or Arbites. Unfortunately the Repressor never made it into the WH Codex. :rolleyes:

I really, really wish the Repressor would make it into a GW book (Sisters? =I=? Forces of the Imperium? Something...)
It's such a cool, fun model to have and put together (and paint!) and I really like the rules. Simple, but effective.

[Nabterayl]

As for bolter recoils? Actually, Bolters are a combination fo both traditional guns and gyrojet. Gyrojet weaponry is inherently flawed by itself, as it is near-useless at short range. However, unlike gyrojet weapoinry, bolters are depicted as ejecting casings. So it seems to me that the bolter fires a multi-stage shell-- first, as a traditional shell or slug, and then activating as a rocket after the shell leaves the barrel of the gun.
Yes, exactly. That's how bolts have always been depicted (I note that, though nobody says it, the casing would probably help protect the rocket exhaust nozzles from getting clogged, too). The point is that the conventional propellant charge is always depicted as being small - just enough to get the bolt clear of the barrel (presumably the rocket propellant is mostly expended immediately, since otherwise it's hard to see how the bolt would have the velocity to be effective at short range, and we know that bolts are effective at short range). Hence, we should expect bolt weapons to have very low recoil.

There's still plenty of reasons for bolt weapons not to be used except by power-armored troops, though. First among them is the weight. We know from real-world experience that soldiers hate having heavy weapons, even if they are more powerful. Heavier weapons introduce all sorts of problems - they're harder to fire, particularly while standing, they increase soldier fatigue, you can carry less ammunition, etc. Power armor mitigates a lot of those problems.


Nabterayl: The last Cain book depicted a Celestian (a veteran Sister, though this one hadn't taken to the field in a while as she was in a teaching position) in power armor literally jumping over peoples' heads with little effort, launching herself over a heavy weapons position. Sororitas armor is fairly powerful in most depictions, certainly much moreso than it is in the tabletop.
That's very interesting ... thanks!


The original Sisters of Battle Codex from 1997 (yes folks we had our very own codex then!) did not list the Exorcist. The only Sisters Vehicles were the Rhino & Immolator.
Okay ... so am I correct in saying we have no fluff describing the Exorcist as an indirect-fire weapon, then? That suggests rather strongly to me that it isn't self-propelled artillery, fluff-wise.

[Melissia]

Yup power armour the likes of which is issued to the Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas is the be all and end all of power armour, it's the best the Ad Mech can create or maintain (the later in most cases) the only difference in functionality is the Astartes extensive genetic modifications that allow for black carapace interface - I suspect this is what gives the Astartes their interface for auto sense capability.

I wonder what Inquisitors use? I suspect they get the same sort of things as the SoB i.e. no black carapace but would an Ordo Malleus inquistor get an aegis suit for example?

EDIT: I realise this has gone a little off topic but it's still interesting :)

The suit used by Inquisitor Vail was powerful enough that she was able to toss a car onto some genestealers. It was considered a master-crafted work of art, a one of a kind piece of equipment and a relic of a long-forgotten age. She had her own personal techpriest dedicated pretty much to maintaining that one piece of equipment.

[Just_Me]

Okay ... so am I correct in saying we have no fluff describing the Exorcist as an indirect-fire weapon, then? That suggests rather strongly to me that it isn't self-propelled artillery, fluff-wise.

In point of fact artillery in no way implies indirect fire capability; in fact historically quite a lot of battlefield artillery has been fairly direct fire. Artillery weapons are defined by their role on the battlefield, that of providing heavy long ranged supporting fire to infantry and armour. With this in mind it is hard to see the Exorcist as anything but artillery.

[Melissia]

Excuse me, don't get caught up in aged military definitions of artillery. Because by the miltary definition of artillery, a grenade launcher is arty. A battle cannon is arty. An autocannon is arty. A hand-held missile launcher is arty. A boltgun would be considered artillery by that vague and outdated definition. Don't even start that discussion.

[Nabterayl]

In point of fact artillery in no way implies indirect fire capability; in fact historically quite a lot of battlefield artillery has been fairly direct fire. Artillery weapons are defined by their role on the battlefield, that of providing heavy long ranged supporting fire to infantry and armour. With this in mind it is hard to see the Exorcist as anything but artillery.

Fair point, and thank you for the correction. My apologies; I try not to make mistakes like that.

Let me rephrase the question, then - am I correct that we have no fluff describing the the Exorcist as an indirect-fire weapon?

I'm trying to get a sense of how the Exorcist is used. "Fire support" seems like an obvious answer, but I wonder if we can go deeper than that. For instance, does it ever lead armored attacks (where the infantry plays a supporting role, rather than the other way around), the way Predators and Land Raiders sometimes do? Does it ever roam as a tank destroyer (which, is certainly a role I'd be tempted to use it in, were I a canoness)? Does it ever operate in close support of infantry squads, which is the main role of Predators and Vindicators? Or is its job simply to operate at some remove from the front, lobbing missiles from afar?

[Melissia]

I have not read any fluff about how the exorcist is used. Ever. Not even the codex describes its machinations, in fact, it specifically and blatantly avoids describing them by claiming not even the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how it works.

[Emperorsmercy]

So it seems like SoB are similair to a PDF of shrine worlds, and some are led and called up for holy wars.

[RogueGarou]

Bolt weapons used to be described and depicted as caseless munitions. The casing was consumed as the round was fired and provided the propellant and fuel for the propellant allowing the bolt weapons to operate in various atmospheres, even the lack of an atmosphere. There used to be the odd painting or drawing of a bolter having cases flying out of a non-existent ejection port which kind of ruined some of those depictions. The older bolters were modeled without ejection ports or even cocking handles. I believe it was the 3E Marines that were first modeled with ejection ports and cocking handles.

Bolters are also equipped with small capacity magazines and used to be described as semi-automatic contrary to many depictions with a stream of cases flying out of the weapon or the automatic fire shown in Dawn of War. The opening sequence to Fire Warrior depicts the Marines firing single small rocket type projectiles from their bolters. Standard bolt rounds are .75 calibre rounds and are essentially gyro-jet rounds or shotgun shells. It is entirely plausible that the rounds have a small charge to begin their acceleration and propel the round from the chamber and barrel of the weapon prior to the miniature rocket motor igniting. Depending upon the acceleration of the round from either the possible initial propellant or the gyro-jet, the round may have limited penetrative potential at certain ranges and varying ballistic properties at different ranges. For example, as the gyro-jet expends its fuel, the rounds weight would be altered and this could alter its performance. Additionally, once the fuel is expended it very well may bleed inertia very quickly due to the shapes that have been illustrated for some of the rounds not being terribly aerodynamic.

But that is mostly speculative and based on the performance and function of both the gyro-jet rounds developed in the 1960's and modern shoulder-fired missiles which have a similar booster charge that launches the projectile prior to the rocket motor firing. Who knows what 30,000 years of weapons development will bring us in the realm of caseless munitions and gyro-jet technologies.

For trivial interest, there were also sound suppressed shotgun shells developed in the 1960's. When fired, the shell casing kind of inverted to capture the gasses generated by the propellant igniting. From what I recall of the design there was a plate in the base of the cartridge that would impact the shotshell payload and impart that kinetic energy to the payload while the gasses were trapped within the shell casing until the casing was ejected. Useless trivia but someone recently mentioned seeing a movie called "No Country For Old Men" and said the main villain had a silenced shotgun in the movie. I have not seen it but he was surprised when I told him about the CIA's sound suppressed shotgun shells. Might be a fun factoid to toss out at a party or game table someday.

[Nabterayl]

So it seems like SoB are similair to a PDF of shrine worlds, and some are led and called up for holy wars.
Well ... kind of? Shrine worlds do have their own PDFs, so PDFs are the PDFs of shrine worlds.

Sisters are deployed on at least some shrine worlds, and forces so deployed use those shrine worlds as a base of operations, and would of course defend them if invaded. But their mission roles are very different from a PDF.

Speaking of which, since hard data on the Exorcist seems to be thin on the ground (though I'm personally inclined to think it's more like a heavy tank or tank destroyer than self-propelled artillery), what do we know about the sisters and special operations missions such as direct action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action_%28military%29)?

Let me give an example: say you want a surface-to-orbit missile silo, a hundred kilometers behind the front, destroyed, and you don't want to wage a full-scale battle to do it. Long-range bombardment is out of the question for whatever reason. So you mount a commando operation. Who do you call?
Space marines, if you can get them. They have the most ways to get at the missile silo - foot troops can be inserted via Thunderhawk or drop pod, and even armored vehicles can be inserted via Thunderhawk. Terminators can assist via teleport attack.
Storm troopers, if you've got any available. They can be inserted via Valkyrie.
What about the Sororitas? How likely are they to have the proper tools for this sort of thing? I know there's some fluff describing Sororitas conducting a drop pod attack, but I don't know anything more about it, such as how common that is.

By way of contrast - and perhaps this will illustrate my point about different mission roles to Emperorsmercy - suppose you're at the climax of a siege. You have created a breach in the curtain wall of the defending fortress, but repeated attempts by the Guard to penetrate that breach have been defeated by the defenders. You need a force that can enter the breach and hold the defenders back to buy time for the Guard to break through in force. Who do you call?
Space marines, if you can get them. They're well-equipped for close quarters battle with their power armor, bolters, and prowess in hand-to-hand combat. They've got lots of ways to get their troops to the breach in the curtain wall without having to traverse no-man's land to do it.
Sororitas, if you can get them. They're also well-equipped for close quarters battle with their power armor, bolters, and prowess in hand-to-hand combat. They don't have as many ways to by pass no-man's land, but they're trained and equipped for crossing it rapidly, and their supporting armor is tougher than space marines'.
By contrast with the missile silo scenario, you don't call the storm troopers - this sort of stand-up fight is not what storm troopers are for.

[Nabterayl]

Bolters are also equipped with small capacity magazines and used to be described as semi-automatic contrary to many depictions with a stream of cases flying out of the weapon or the automatic fire shown in Dawn of War.
The small ammunition capacity is something that people tend to forget. Modern depictions of bolters (e.g., Wargear (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Wargear)) describe at least some patterns as having a four-round burst. Bolts are big, and when every magazine has enough capacity for only five bursts, you know right away that bolters are not well suited to sustained firefights. I can well believe that a space marine would fire single shots whenever he could, just to conserve his limiited ammunition.

On the other hand, one thing I do like about Dawn of War is the very slow rate of fire they show bolters as having - roughly 200 rounds per minute. For a .75 cal weapon, that feels about right to me.

[imperialsavant]

What about the Sororitas? How likely are they to have the proper tools for this sort of thing? I know there's some fluff describing Sororitas conducting a drop pod attack, but I don't know anything more about it, such as how common that is.


There was an Inquisitorial Strike Force listed in Citidal Journal No 67 if I remember correctly which had the Sisters Deep Striking by Drop Pod. Incidently this issue had the details & John Blanche Art for a Sister Repenter & she really looked like a Repenter! Thin from fasting etc etc.

BoLS have fairly recently redone a Mini Dex for this Force with Drop Pods. Take a look in the Archives.

My take is if an Inquisiter deems it necessary, he will contact the Cannoness of a suitable or close by Priory & arrange Pods & other special equiptment required for the job. :)

[Melissia]

However, more important than anything inquisitorial is what the Sisters do in their everyday warfare. The vast majority of battles the Sisters participate in have nothing to do with the Inquisition (in the sense that the Inquisition didn't order them to do anything), because quite frankly the Inquisition does not often have use of the Sisters, whom are bout as overt a military force as one can get.

[RogueGarou]

Yep. Even not all Grey Knight operations involve Inquisitors. The Deathwatch would be much more likely to almost always involve Inquisitorial oversight for their missions since they are Marines seconded to the Inquisition's Ordo Xenos. Sisters and Grey Knights are totally separate organizations which happen to have very good working relations with some of the Holy Orders.

I just thought about something. I have never heard of Sisters being part of a Rogue Traders entourage. Guardsmen, aliens, and the occasional Marine but I don't recall reading about Sisters or members of the Ecclisiarchy joining a Rogue Trader. Maybe it has something to do with diplomacy and trade at the barrel of a flamer? It would make some sense that there could be some Sisters traveling with a Rogue Trader and founding or protecting a new shrine or mission in the far reaches of the galaxy.

[Nabterayl]

So, do we hear of non-Inquisitorial drop pod assaults? Or more than just the one? I'm not aware of any, but perhaps others are?

The reason I ask is because this is one area of information where the official Sororitas armory is not likely to produce reliable information. Yes, the pods would have to be provided by the Navy (as would the ships that launched them), but it doesn't follow from that the Sororitas wouldn't use pods on a regular basis. After all, storm trooper Valkyries have to be provided by the Navy, but storm troopers use Valkyries on a regular basis.

[Melissia]

There are no examples of drop pod assaults by Sororitas in the fluff aside from what has been mentioned before in this thread.


RogueGarou: Probably because GW is a lazy **** of an organization and just forgot to mention them. But quite frankly, the non-militant orders are far, far more likely to be involved with Rogue Traders than the militant orders.

[Kahoolin]

Just to add something I don't think anyone has mentioned yet - in the Caiaphas Cain novels, Cain thinks of the Sororitas as brutal and effective warriors, but not really soldiers. I think he says they are usually quite keen to martyr themselves if necessary and don't employ many tactics beyond rushing the enemy and overwhelming them at close range, like beserkers with guns.

It's hard to get across, but what I'm saying is that Sororitas in this depiction aren't stupid or unskilled; they are well-trained, brave and dangerous warriors. They just don't place much importance on things like seizing objectives. The only thing they care about is slaughtering as many of the Emperor's enemies as they can before being killed themselves.

I imagine them as being deployed by priests or senior sororitas in one of two ways:

Defensively - a world is under attack from traitors, heretics, or xenos, and the sororitas are there or nearby, so they fight to the death using all the methods at their disposal.

Offensively - a senior sororitas or ecclesiarchy priest mobilizes them with a rousing sermon to go on a sort of crusade. They throw themselves at the enemy with the sole aim of wiping them out with bolter and flame.

What I don't see is them being mobilized for petty in-world squabbles/civil wars where there is no heretical involvement. In these cases they would simply garrison churches and massacre anyone who tried to dispute their authority. I think for for example if IG regiments had come to a world with a convent on it to depose a Planetary Governor who had stopped paying his tithe, the sororitas would think it was none of their business and ignore requests for aid from the guard unless some spiritual reason for them to fight became apparent. I don't see them as being just a part of the regular imperial war machine in any way like the guard or even the astartes. They are purely defenders of the faith.

[Melissia]

And none of that matters when you have xenos or heretics banging on your doors. Sororitas have a long history of fighting against Orks and Tyranids, in fact quite frankly there's more information about the Sisters' actions on Armageddon than any other single conflict, and both of those are extremely common enemies in the 41st and 42nd centuries.

[Kahoolin]

Well yeah... xenos are unholy by definition ;)

[Nabterayl]

So I finished Faith and Fire yesterday, and came away with a couple of interesting data that I'm not sure I've seen discussed explicitly in this thread. These are:

Exorcists
The Order of Our Martyred Lady has more than one Exorcist on the planet Neva. The Exorcists are always spoken of in the plural, and at one point Miriya speaks of them in the same breath as bolters when thinking about the wargear of the Sororitas. This suggests (doesn't prove, but we'll work with what we've got while acknowledging the weaknesses in our sources) that Exorcists are not all that rare. They are clearly "rare" - many sources state as much - but there's a lot of wiggle room in that word. We don't have numbers for Our Martyred Lady on Neva, but we do know that there's a single convent, and the largest number of transport vehicles we ever have a definitive count on is a dozen, including Immolators. This is consistent with the Nevan convent being about the size of a commandery. This suggests that Exorcists are, for instance, more common than terminator armor.

It also suggests (though this is starting to get very tentative) that Exorcists would be common enough to be used as tanks in most armored Sororitas attacks of any size; i.e., that Sororitas would not routinely have to rely on their Rhinos and Immolators alone.

Ammunition
Ammunition usage in this book seems dictated more by the law of dramatic tension than by careful attention to how much ammo a Sororitas carries (Miriya's plasma pistol in particular - either (i) her gun has a way higher capacity than the five-shot patterns we see space marines using, (ii) she is absolutely festooned with power packs, or (iii) she has as much ammo as Jim Swallow needs her to have ;)). However, if we're willing to put on our fanboy hats and scrape the bottom of the data barrel, we notice that Miriya's squad runs completely out of ammunition after, at most, (i) the attack on the city of Metis, (ii) the fight with the priests in the Null Keep, (iii) fighting their way up to the engine, and (iv) a firefight with daemons, all in the course of a single day.

The interesting thing about this fact pattern is that they all take place in a single day, and the celestians presumably loaded for bear at the outset since they were attacking a city-state with orders to level it. Yet during the attack on Metis itself the squad was presumably mostly mounted (seeing as their sister superior spent virtually the entire battle manning an Immolator turret). The fight with the priests in the Null Keep was sharp, but short. The passage up to the engine is not described completely, but it's certainly implied that they don't meet heavy resistance. And in the firefight with the daemons, which is also short, they run out of ammunition.

Thus, I think it is fair to state that Faith and Fire backs up the deduction that a full load of ammunition for a Sororitas would not see her through even a single day's heavy fighting.

Power Armor
We know from IA3 that simple autocannons can knock a power-armored Astartes off his feet and even wound him beyond his ability to continue to fight (if not necessarily kill him). We see in Faith and Fire power-armored Sororitas killed by simple autocannon as well (which implies that it's just Astartes physiology which allows them to survive crippling autocannon wounds). We also see an armored celestian injured by a stake crossbow that pierces her shoulder. All of this, I think tends to support the position that power armor does not let a warrior ignore cover (indeed, we see armored Sororitas routinely making use of cover against both superior and inferior forces), even against small arms.

We also see a power-armored celestian overpowered in a hand-to-hand struggle by a psyker of unknown talent who is not depicted as using any powers (although we could infer that this is a limitation on the character's knowledge). I tentatively suggest that this is in line with the Inquisitor depiction of military power armor. Inquisitor is the only rule set we have which explicitly describes the strength-enhancing effect of military power armor, and is about over-the-top action hero characters - and still only says power armor enhances Strength by 20% (this is, for what it's worth, consistent with the depiction of civilian power armor in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader). This suggests that a power armored Sororitas, while stronger than an unarmored human being of equivalent strength, does not have her strength greatly enhanced by her power armor. Miriya is clearly a strong, fit woman (at one point she pulls herself up a sheer rock wall using nothing but a pair of improvised pitons and her arm strength, in full power armor), but she's also clearly not superhumanly strong, even in armor. I'm aware that this might be a question of inconsistent fluff, but does anybody have any examples to cite of regular power armored humans performing feats of great physical strength?

[Duke]

@Nab, great research... Sure gives us a lot to think about. As far as power armoured feats, what can we take from the DH codex when talking about Inquisitors in power armour?

Duke

[Melissia]

Inquisitor is the only rule set we have which explicitly describes the strength-enhancing effect of military power armor
Not quite. Dark Heresy provides rules for civilian power armor.

To explain... the average human has 30-40 strength in Dark Heresy . In comparison, an Ork nob might have around 50-60. Civilian model power armor increases the wearer's strength by 20-- IE, a human's strength could very well go from average to that of an Ork nob by stepping in it. Military-grade power armor is going to be at least equivalent to that, if not better.

This conflicts with the Inquisitor, but I would actually go with DH over Inquisitor myself. DH has rules for multiple types of Power Armor that each have different levels of strength enhancement.


Also, Sororitas are capable of firing military-grade heavy bolters from the hip with the same accuracy as that of an Astartes Devastator squad. Their armor must be able to enhance their strength pretty damned well to do that.

[Nabterayl]

Also, Sororitas are capable of firing military-grade heavy bolters from the hip with the same accuracy as that of an Astartes Devastator squad. Their armor must be able to enhance their strength pretty damned well to do that.
I think it's more a question of manhandling the thing around to aim it than it is of controlling the recoil. Admittedly, a weapon that weighs close to 90 pounds unloaded would require a fair amount of strength even to manhandle around to aim.

Heavy bolter recoil ought to be pretty controllable. Deduction:

At one point in Faith and Fire, an unarmored sister hospitaller ends up using a bolt pistol in a firefight (a celestian's bolt pistol, lent to her for the fight), and the recoil jars her frame with every trigger pull.

That's really interesting to me, because by most accounts a bolt pistol fires the same bolts as a boltgun. Which tells us two things. One, the ejection charge for the bolt, though small, is powerful enough, relative to the mass of the boltgun, to jar the frame of a regular woman. I suppose I can buy that given that these are snub-nosed 19mm rounds. Two, the recoil on a boltgun is less than the recoil on a bolt pistol (a little less than half as much, using the bolt weapons in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader as guides).

Heavy bolters fire heavier-caliber shells, so the ejection charge would be proportionately more powerful. However, the shells are only 33% to 167% larger (depending on whether you're using old fluff, which has 25mm heavy bolt shells, or newer fluff, which has "fist-sized" heavy bolt shells). However, a heavy bolter is 571% as massive as a boltgun. So I think there's reasonable warrant to assume that heavy bolters have the least recoil of the four classic bolt weapons.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I think it's more a question of manhandling the thing around to aim it than it is of controlling the recoil. Admittedly, a weapon that weighs close to 90 pounds unloaded would require a fair amount of strength even to manhandle around to aim.

Heavy bolter recoil ought to be pretty controllable. Deduction:

At one point in Faith and Fire, an unarmored sister hospitaller ends up using a bolt pistol in a firefight (a celestian's bolt pistol, lent to her for the fight), and the recoil jars her frame with every trigger pull.

That's really interesting to me, because by most accounts a bolt pistol fires the same bolts as a boltgun. Which tells us two things. One, the ejection charge for the bolt, though small, is powerful enough, relative to the mass of the boltgun, to jar the frame of a regular woman. I suppose I can buy that given that these are snub-nosed 19mm rounds. Two, the recoil on a boltgun is less than the recoil on a bolt pistol (a little less than half as much, using the bolt weapons in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader as guides).

Heavy bolters fire heavier-caliber shells, so the ejection charge would be proportionately more powerful. However, the shells are only 33% to 167% larger (depending on whether you're using old fluff, which has 25mm heavy bolt shells, or newer fluff, which has "fist-sized" heavy bolt shells). However, a heavy bolter is 571% as massive as a boltgun. So I think there's reasonable warrant to assume that heavy bolters have the least recoil of the four classic bolt weapons.


He has analyzed it..... with science.

[Nabterayl]

In comparison, an Ork nob might have around 50-60. Civilian model power armor increases the wearer's strength by 20-- IE, a human's strength could very well go from average to that of an Ork nob by stepping in it.
Can you quote a source for that? The ork freebooter on page 377 of Rogue Trader is pretty clearly describing a boy, I think, and he has a Strength of 50. I know that "nob" is a pretty loose term, as much social as physiological, but 50 Strength seems on the low side for a nob to me in the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader system.

[Melissia]

Can you quote a source for that? The ork freebooter on page 377 of Rogue Trader is pretty clearly describing a boy, I think, and he has a Strength of 50. I know that "nob" is a pretty loose term, as much social as physiological, but 50 Strength seems on the low side for a nob to me in the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader system.

Dark Heresy: Creatures Anathema supplement, pages 96-103.

These numbers are not set as concrete universals mind you, as that is up to the GM as usual.

Also, military heavy bolters are at such size and power that it takes two men to carry and operate them without power armor. With power armor, one person can operate it with ease. Even "civilian" grade heavy bolters are almost impossible to use unless braced or unless you have massive strength AND a specific trait.

[Nabterayl]

Dark Heresy: Creatures Anathema supplement, pages 96-103.

These numbers are not set as concrete universals mind you, as that is up to the GM as usual.
Ah, thanks. Aren't CA boyz S46 or something like that, though? That would suggest that an S49 nob is rather on the runty side for a nob, wouldn't it?

Not that "as strong as an ork" is anything to sneeze at, so that point is well taken.


Also, military heavy bolters are at such size and power that it takes two men to carry and operate them without power armor. With power armor, one person can operate it with ease. Even "civilian" grade heavy bolters are almost impossible to use unless braced or unless you have massive strength AND a specific trait.
"With ease" might be stretching it a bit. Even space marines generally can't fire the things on the move, after all. All the instances I'm aware of of heavy bolters being fired by troops on the move are extraordinary in some way, whether it's technology (suspensors), the presence of a legendary hero (e.g., Grimnar), or extraordinary religious fervor (Holy War).

While we're on the subject, how sure are we that the weapons we have DH and RT stats for are materially different from military-issue ones? I know that's an old saw among fluff junkies, but consider:

A DH/RT heavy bolter weighs 40kg, give or take, which is a little bit heavier than an M2 heavy machinegun - a very heavy weapon for a two-man crew, especially considering that the ammunition is heavier than .50 cal (though admittedly, the heavy bolter probably has a much lower rate of fire). Even 40kg is a big difference in a weapon compared to an M2's 38kg. It's hard for me to imagine a two-man IG crew carrying a heavier weapon than that into battle.

This being the case, doesn't it make sense that a Sororitas heavy bolter would also weigh around 40kg, given that one woman (plus power armor) has to carry both the weapon and the ammunition? I mean, granted, the woman in question might be as strong as an ork, but she's doing the job of two men. I find it hard to believe that a 40kg DH/RT heavy bolter is that far off the mark, if it's off the mark at all.

EDIT: When I say "materially different from" I mean in their gross physical dimensions. We know that the Godwyn De'az, at least, performs better than other weapons of "its class" (whatever that means), but as we know from real firearms, there's plenty of room for weapons to vary wildly in their performance characteristics while still weighing the same.

[Melissia]

While we're on the subject, how sure are we that the weapons we have DH and RT stats for are materially different from military-issue ones?[

Look at the difference between the rounds fired by the Angelus bolt carbine and those fired by other bolt weapons-- the Angelus bolt carbine fires Astartes rounds, which do the same damage as a civilian model heavy bolter. The Scourge pattern boltgun-- a civilian model based off of the Godwyn-Deaz-- is three kg heavier than the standard boltgun, as well.

[Nabterayl]

Ooh, good catch. Thanks. What do we know about the comparison of the Godwyn De'az to the Godwyn, then? The Angelus carries three "Astartes caliber" bolts, and weighs 11kg, though it also carries them in the stock of the weapon, so it's not clear that an unloaded Astartes boltgun would weigh any more. But scaling that up linearly gives us 63kg Astartes heavy bolters, and the thought of two Guardsmen carrying a 63kg weapon strains even my this-is-40K credulity. And power-armored Sororitas don't really seem to have a carrying capacity of more than two men in any rules system (though I admit I've just browsed through the DH books, so please correct me if I've missed something).

[Just_Me]

As to the strength enhancing effects of power armour, it suspect that any strength increase would be limited less by the capabilities of the armour itself and more by the stress limits the human body inside can withstand. Consider, modern programs to develop powered exoskeletal armor are limited by two main concerns; 1) a sustainable high energy power source that is light enough not to require the entire resources of the armor just to transport it, 2) to develop motion-feedback systems refined enough that the enhance the wearer’s movements only to the degree that they need, and not so fast or powerfully that they break the wearer’s bones or overstress his/her joints.

The first problem seems not to be an issue in the 41st millennium, whatever power sources they routinely use (and there seem to be a variety) can apparently be as light as they need them to be. The solution to the second is less easily apparent, though the Imperium is demonstrably capable of impressively subtle machinery there appear to be limits outside of the very highest levels of their technology, which are prohibitively expensive and rare.

One solution is evident in the Astartes, they are genetically engineer for the purpose of being meshed with their armour, and their physique is robust enough to withstand stresses WELL outside of human norms. In addition the fact that they interface with their armour directly on a neurological level means that their own engineered and conditioned nervous systems regulate the responses of the armour, meaning that their control is much finer. In fact it is not unreasonable to suppose that the Astartes are engineered expressly with their power armour in mind, making them essentially cyborg soldiers.

Outside of the Mechanicus and perhaps some Inquisitors with very extensive resources there is no indication that other wearers of power armour are similarly linked to their armour, and even if they are it is certainly not to the same degree of the Astartes. The power armour worn by the Sororitas and those handful of “civilians” who possess it (always an amusing thought to me, as if imperial citizens can just go to their local hardware store to pick up a suit of power armour… :p), most likely has built in limitations to prevent it from destroying its wearer.

The question of bolt gun weight and recoil in general, and of heavy bolters in particular, is a complex one that really deserves its own dedicated discussion, but several points come to mind pertaining to what has been discussed here. Let us for the sake of this discussion first assume that bolt weapons are rocket-assisted reaction driven rounds (as I am personally inclined to believe), rather than truly rocket-propelled rounds, otherwise this discussion point is moot. As I am nearly certain has been mentioned here before, bolt pistols may fire rounds of the same caliber as boltguns, but not with the same charge. Consider the difference in modern fire-arms, a pistol and a rifle may both fire small .22 caliber ammunition, but the rifle rounds will have greater range and power than the pistol rounds because they have longer casings with more powder, hence the existence of .22 “long” ammo and .22 “short” ammo (I do not make this stuff up…). Visual inspection of the magazines of boltguns vs. bolt pistols frequently seems to show that the rounds must indeed be shorter.

To the next issue, as a target marksmen myself I can say that there is always an equilibrium for weight in firearms. A heavier gun will absorb more of the recoil and have less muzzle rise. Many marksmen attach additional weight to the barrel of their rifle to further off-set any instability and particularly over-powered firearms like .45 and .50 pistols (or any gun chambered with Magnum or similar ammo) are also equipped with counter weights to alleviate their disproportional kick. On the other hand a gun that is too heavy cannot be aimed very easily, and in combat situation cannot be brought to bear quickly enough to by useful. Therefore in military firearm design there is always a balancing act between stability and mobility.

This brings us to the heavy bolter. While it is true that the heavy bolter is a proportionally more massive compared to its ammunition size than the bolter, and so should be more stable, it also has a markedly higher rate of fire. High rates of fire exacerbate and accentuate the muzzle rise of the weapon in question. To cope with this most modern weapons with a very high rate of fire have very small caliber ammunition, while heavy machineguns are literally as well as figuratively heavy and are almost always anchored in some fashion. In 40k power armour offers an alternative solution, a single soldier can carry a very massive weapon and set themselves to anchor the recoil and muscle it onto the correct aim. By contrast the heavy bolters used by unaugmented soldiers are vehicle or tripod mounted. A simple visual inspection shows that the crew served tripod mounted weapons employed by average humans tend to be even more massive than the already large one-person portable versions employed by the augmented Astartes and Sororitas, once again likely intended to absorb recoil forces and improve "aimability" which a power armoured soldier can overcome with their augmented strength.

The tripod versions employed by the Imperial Guard may be so massive and cumbersome as to only technically be portable, more in the sense of light field artillery than squad support weapons (the autocannon and lascannon certainly seem to be more light artillery than support weapon). The presence of blast shields and the fact that a number of regiments (notably the Death Korps and the Mordian Iron Guard) mount these weapons on wheeled limbers with attendant caissons in a manner similar to old field artillery seems to be more in keeping with this role. The role of squad support weapon actually seems to fall to “special weapons” like grenade launchers and plasma guns. I certainly have trouble seeing Guardsmen humping the massive heavy weapons depicted by the models around the field of battle, even in two person teams (except maybe for mortars and missile launchers).

…sigh… why can’t I ever write a post that’s not trying to be a dissertation? :o

[Nabterayl]

... and, as somebody was no doubt about to remind me, military heavy bolters are S5. That could be from better explosives, but in general, improving lethality by improving quality rather than improving size doesn't feel very Imperial to me. So okay, I guess I have to accept that military (or tabletop, at least) heavy bolters are probably larger than "civilian" heavy bolters, which probably means that they're heavier too. My credulity will recover, given time :o

And before we sidetrack this any further, I'll just start another thread for bolters :p

So for purposes of the strength of a power armored Sororitas, does "about as strong as an ork" seem like a reasonable synthesis of our various sources?

[Just_Me]

So for purposes of the strength of a power armored Sororitas, does "about as strong as an ork" seem like a reasonable synthesis of our various sources?

Well, assuming we aren't talking about a warboss, then yes, that seems to be a reasonable conclusion :D.

[Nabterayl]

Well, to be fair, "boy," "nob," "warboss," and "warlord" are all sociopolitical rather than biological terms. Physiology and the Waaagh! ensure that rank is correlated with size, but only relative size. In one tribe, an ork who is merely the size of a space marine might be warlord. In another larger, more successful tribe, an ork might be a ten-foot tall killing machine who weighs half a ton, and only be a nob (and, were he to walk into the first tribe, would probably instantly be acclaimed warlord).

So I guess I should have been more specific, and said "about as strong as an ork that is the same size as or not that much larger than a human being."

[Just_Me]

Well, to be fair, "boy," "nob," "warboss," and "warlord" are all sociopolitical rather than biological terms. Physiology and the Waaagh! ensure that rank is correlated with size, but only relative size. In one tribe, an ork who is merely the size of a space marine might be warlord. In another larger, more successful tribe, an ork might be a ten-foot tall killing machine who weighs half a ton, and only be a nob (and, were he to walk into the first tribe, would probably instantly be acclaimed warlord).

Well, that's the thing about Orks, due to their unique adaptive biology sociopolitical terms are synonymous with biological ones, though still relative I suppose.


So I guess I should have been more specific, and said "about as strong as an ork that is the same size as or not that much larger than a human being."

As definitions go, it works for me :D.

[Sitnam]

So for purposes of the strength of a power armored Sororitas, does "about as strong as an ork" seem like a reasonable synthesis of our various sources? That is shwon perhaps in tabletop as well. Both Ork Boys and Battlesisters are same strength as Guardsmen, who they are obviously stronger than. But their other abilities, such as carrying heavy weapons by one person, represents their in-fluff strength.

[Melissia]

Orks also carry heavy weapons on one person, as well-- their rokkit launchaz and big shootaz aren't much weaker than Imperial versions to be sure. Course, never underestimate an Ork under an adrenaline rush-- such an Ork can easily rip a man limb from limb.

[Sitnam]

Orks also carry heavy weapons on one person, as well-- their rokkit launchaz and big shootaz aren't much weaker than Imperial versions to be sure. Course, never underestimate an Ork under an adrenaline rush-- such an Ork can easily rip a man limb from limb.

Not only can they shoot them, they can do it on the run. Hell, there are few of the Orks big'ol guns that they cant shoot on the run. Even Flash Gitz and their shootas can do it.

[Just_Me]

Not only can they shoot them, they can do it on the run. Hell, there are few of the Orks big'ol guns that they cant shoot on the run. Even Flash Gitz and their shootas can do it.

Yeah, but thats more because Orks have never really cared about the little things, like aiming...

[Melissia]

Which is why they can move and shoot. Sororitas and Astartes choose not to do so, and instead want to actually aim :P

[Sitnam]

Which is why they can move and shoot. Sororitas and Astartes choose not to do so, and instead want to actually aim :P

Thats quite unorky of them. Some nob needs to bash all over the head, and teach them how to make real dakka.

[Nabterayl]

Also, it's not clear how heavy your "average" ork assault weapons really are compared to their Imperial equivalents. Certainly most rokkit launchaz appear to be little more than a stick, a blast shield, and an ignition system. Imperial missile launchers are a bit more ... robust than that :p

[Melissia]

Depends on how you define "robust". Ork Rokkit Launchers are capable of being used as clubs and maces and then firing immediently afterwards. The average Ork shoota is comparible to a crude bolter, and a slugga comparible to a bolt pistol, with the main reason that said weapons are inferior being that the munitions fired are inferior rather than the guns themselves, for the most part. Not to mention they are intended for Ork physiology...

[Sitnam]

Depends on how you define "robust". Ork Rokkit Launchers are capable of being used as clubs and maces and then firing immediently afterwards. The average Ork shoota is comparible to a crude bolter, and a slugga comparible to a bolt pistol, with the main reason that said weapons are inferior being that the munitions fired are inferior rather than the guns themselves, for the most part. Not to mention they are intended for Ork physiology...

IIRC, didn't the Ork codex state that their weapons are actually propelled by some sort of Orky telekinesis that makes them work.If so, then wonder they can be used as clubs! I believe that telekinesis is the reasons the reds ones actually do go faster.

[Nabterayl]

The new ork codex, in keeping with GW's new policy of only pinning down what they absolutely have to, is quite vague on that matter. What it states is that some tech-priests think that some ork wargear might work because of the Waaagh! Not that even the best-informed tech-priest is exactly a reliable source of information about how things really work.

My personal pet theory is that ork technology is a combination of engineering that the Mechanicus doesn't understand and psychoactive technology, similar to the way a lot of eldar technology works. Wraithguard, for instance, "shouldn't work" in the sense that the machine doesn't make sense without psychic input. You probably could not, for instance, place a sufficiently sophisticated computer inside a wraithguard and make it operate.

Similarly, my personal pet theory is that a lot of ork technology uses psychic input to fill in the gaps, but in fairly subtle ways. For instance, there's no reason you couldn't build a 20mm automatic rifle with a barrel made of riveted sheet metal ... except that the pressure of the propellant charge would burst the barrel. Orks build 20mm automatic rifles with barrels made of riveted sheet metal, and the pressure doesn't burst the barrel. Why? Psychoactive technology is my personal pet theory.

But GW has clearly moved away from issuing definitive statements on things like this.

[Just_Me]

IIRC, didn't the Ork codex state that their weapons are actually propelled by some sort of Orky telekinesis that makes them work.If so, then wonder they can be used as clubs! I believe that telekinesis is the reasons the reds ones actually do go faster.

Ork tech is all kinda like Rube Goldberg machines; their engineering principles are iffy and in a lot of ways they shouldn't work, but the Oks sincerely believe that they should work, and it is this Ork collective psychic belief that makes it happen. Their tech doesn't literally run on psyker-power, but rather it pushes their fuzzy-engineering into the realm of the functional.

Soooo, in short Red 'uns DO go fasta'.


The new ork codex, in keeping with GW's new policy of only pinning down what they absolutely have to, is quite vague on that matter. What it states is that some tech-priests think that some ork wargear might work because of the Waaagh! Not that even the best-informed tech-priest is exactly a reliable source of information about how things really work.

My personal pet theory is that ork technology is a combination of engineering that the Mechanicus doesn't understand and psychoactive technology, similar to the way a lot of eldar technology works. Wraithguard, for instance, "shouldn't work" in the sense that the machine doesn't make sense without psychic input. You probably could not, for instance, place a sufficiently sophisticated computer inside a wraithguard and make it operate.

Similarly, my personal pet theory is that a lot of ork technology uses psychic input to fill in the gaps, but in fairly subtle ways. For instance, there's no reason you couldn't build a 20mm automatic rifle with a barrel made of riveted sheet metal ... except that the pressure of the propellant charge would burst the barrel. Orks build 20mm automatic rifles with barrels made of riveted sheet metal, and the pressure doesn't burst the barrel. Why? Psychoactive technology is my personal pet theory.

But GW has clearly moved away from issuing definitive statements on things like this.

Basically, what he said...

[Melissia]

Keep in mind that humans also can use Ork equipment. Cain and his group used Ork vehicles and heavy weapons on the "March of the Liberator", for example. Dark Heresy has a system where Ork weapons are unreliable in non-Ork hands, but Reliable when held by an Ork. Note that this also applies to their choppas IIRC-- they're balanced in the hands of an Ork, but unbalanced in human hands.

[Nabterayl]

As an ork player, one of my favorite things to needle my Imperial-playing friends about is that orks are not actually a low-tech race. Any race that can build functional personal weapons, bionics, armored fighting vehicles, force fields, teleporters, and interstellar warships in a cave (with a box of scraps!) is pretty damn high-tech in my book compared to the Imperium.

So (and again this is only my personal pet theory), I don't actually fall back on the Waaagh! explanation every time the Imperium comes across a piece of ork technology whose function they can't understand. It could be psychic tech (which isn't an evidence of low technology in my book any more than it is when the eldar use it to make their "fuzzy engineering" work). Or it could be that it works fine without any psychic input at all, and the Mechanicus doesn't know what the hell it's talking about in this case ;) From the Imperial point of view, pretty hard to distinguish between those two.

[Melissia]

I feel similarly, myelf. And though the bolter is the basis for most Ork weapons, Ork weaponry is very individualistic. Some ork weaponry use overpowered lasrifles, while others use multibarreled LMGs, and others use more exotic weaponry, depending on the taste of the individual Ork.

[Nabterayl]

In what sense are you saying that the bolter is the basis for most ork weapons? The "typical" ork weapon in all the sources I'm familiar with is a large-caliber solid projectile weapon - it doesn't fire rocket-powered shells and its shells aren't explosive, which are the two characteristics I think of when I think of bolt weapons (though of course, any given ork weapon could have either or both characteristics). And judging by the models we've got, at least, your "typical" shoota is a lot bigger than a boltgun.

These facts, combined with the fact that on the tabletop sluggaz, shootaz, and boltguns are all S4, have always led me to believe that the "typical" ork shoota was simply an automatic rifle of small cannon caliber, in roughly the 20mm range.

[Duke]

I don't think the fluff in any way points to sluggas/ shotas are anything like bolt weapons.

[Melissia]

I don't think the fluff in any way points to sluggas/ shotas are anything like bolt weapons.Ciaphas Cain series describes them as exactly that, including the explosion. Ork weaponry varies too much to really give them a generalization like that, but it IS true that Ork equpment tends to be only slightly below bolters in effectiveness (if only they'd aim).

[Duke]

Ciaphas Cain series describes them as exactly that, including the explosion. Ork weaponry varies too much to really give them a generalization like that, but it IS true that Ork equpment tends to be only slightly below bolters in effectiveness (if only they'd aim).

I had always seen that they were more like slugs, and less like mass reactive bolts

[Melissia]

As I said, it dpeends on the individual Ork, as well as the Mek that produces the weapon. Some Orks may use large conventional bullets, some may use explosive rounds, some may use shotgun slugs, others might use overpowered laser weaponry, etc.

[Duke]

That much is true... The statline and rules cover a wide variety of different style of ork weapons. The problem and beauty of Orks is that they are orks

[Melissia]

The one common rule amongst all Ork weaponry is you can't have enough Dakka.

[Duke]

Lol! Spot on! It doesn't matter if t shoots mass-reactive bolts or just plain old nuts an bolts... So long as it makes a great dakka!

[Melissia]

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/th_Dakka.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/melissiablackheart/Dakka.jpg)
NEVER ENOUGH.


And now that I've thoroughly derailed this thread, shall we get back on topic?

[Duke]

Lol on both points... I think that is the first time I have ever seen Melissa derail a discussion that was actualy supposed to be about sisters, who would have thought!

[Melissia]

I'm also a fan of Orks and Imperial Guard. Sisters are just my primary focus. Orks fascinate me from a sociological and cultural perspective, and the Imperial Guard is totally badass (far moreso than any Marine at any rate, but that's a discussion for another thread).

So, Adepta Sororitas operations.

My own Sisters typically function as either the tip of the spear, shattering the enemy line, or they hold the flanks, performing the roles of cavalry in the US Civil War period and earlier (that is the one fought between north and south USA, not the one between US and UK :P), rapid response and flanking. If they have to operate alone, they use surprise attacks, ambushes, and traps. They aren't too proud to use camoflage-- for example, one squad uncamoflaged holding a roadblock, while two tohers hide camoflaged on the flanks, and a squad of Seraphim is ready to jump onto the rear. If all goes to plan, the enemy attacks the most obvious target, the flanks advance in, and the seraphim land on the retreating enemy. If not, then the Seraphim are there to assist whichever squad is most hard pressed.

[Duke]

Here is the problem, assuming you are deployed in a flanking posistion, how do you handle denied flank? Most generals break under it and I often find it the queens gambit of 40k (meaning an experimced general will k ow how to respond, but an inxperinced one will be crushed.

[Melissia]

When I say this, I'm imagining a grand battle with a large mechanized Guard force in the middle, and a sizeable Sororitas force split with half on each flank-- how they'd handle a denied flank would be dependant on how the battle itself is going. Essentially, I'm describing from a fluff standpoint, not an in-game standpoint.

[Duke]

Maybe it's just me but I see the sisters more as spearheads than flank holders... Their battelfield personality doesn't scream "wait here just in case," it more seems like they would want to be I. The thick of it.

From a game standpoint I am curious how you would handle it though.

[Melissia]

Assuming it was an apoc sized game, I'd probably not even bother to play to begin with. Sisters are at a sizeable disadvantage in such games because of the lack of useful long ranged anti-tank, datafaxes, and etc. compared to everyone else. And I do mean EVERYONE else, even the Grey Knights have at least an official formation.

But, simply put... I would do with the Sisters what they do best. Get them in close and set every damn thing on fire that wears the enemy's colors (and a good number of things that don't). The Sisters in the tabletop game don't do subtle.

[DarkLink]

Lol! Spot on! It doesn't matter if t shoots mass-reactive bolts or just plain old nuts an bolts... So long as it makes a great dakka!

It makes me wonder why orks have never invented this:

http://www.fototime.com/E4012A0E4893DAB/orig.jpg

[Nabterayl]

Flank holders maybe not, but flanking seems like quite a proper use of sisters from a fluff standpoint. Spearhead seems proper as well, but only because the common thread - what sisters "really are," if I can venture to be so bold - is shock troops. Using them to hammer the flank of an enemy once fixed seems just as appropriate to me as using them as a brick to the face.

[Duke]

I could see them smashing a flank, but I don't see them being assigned to hold a flank... It just seems like a huge waste.

[Melissia]

The Sisters are inherently offensive in nature. They use high-impact short-ranged weaponry which often does not have long ammunition supplies-- bolters, flamers, meltaguns.

[Nabterayl]

@Duke:

My point was that Melissia probably meant "flanking" in the sense of offensive action against a flank. It sounded like you interpreted it to mean holding a flank.

[Melissia]

And you are right. When I said "flanking" I was intending for the traditional cavalry role of actually going around the battlefield and attacking the rear or side of the enemy position, crashing into it like a tidal wave of fire and bolter shells.

[Duke]

...My own Sisters typically function as either the tip of the spear, shattering the enemy line, or they hold the flanks, ...

@ NabI hope you can see why I thought she was talking about their flanking function being that of holding.

Duke

[Duke]

And you are right. When I said "flanking" I was intending for the traditional cavalry role of actually going around the battlefield and attacking the rear or side of the enemy position, crashing into it like a tidal wave of fire and bolter shells.

I agree that Sisters would be more comfortable in this manner of flanking, almost attempting a double envelopment. I think the original posistion of holding the flanks just wasn't fleshed out as a whole idea yet.

Duke

[Valkerie]

I think that the change from caseless to cased ammo came more because a picture of someone firing their weapon on full auto looks much more dramatic if you have empty cartridges flying through the air.

On the Exorcist being a rare vehicle. I think they mean that they don't have enough of them to issue to anyone but the Sisters. Just like how the Imperial Army used to have Land Raiders. After the changeover to Imperial Guard, they realized they couldn't make more so they consolidated all Land Raiders in the Space Marine chapters, and replaced them with Leman Russ MBTs.

[Nabterayl]

Agree on both points. Also, caseless ammo fell out of vogue over the course of the '90s. Back in the '80s and early '90s you couldn't step into a gritty sci-fi setting without tripping over caseless ammo. Given how sensitive 40K is to riffing off of popular SF tropes, I can't help but feel that played a factor in an indirect sort of way.

[RogueGarou]

Also, take a look at the Witch Hunters Codex art. I forget which page but there is a drawing early in the Codex on the bottom of a page. The one where the Sisters are standing over the fallen Kroot. One Sister is firing her bolter and there are a couple of dozen bolter casings flying from the non-existent ejection port on her bolter. The sister on the left is firing and there are no casings flying through the air and still no ejection port on the weapon. Sure, GW takes stuff from other genres and media but a lot of the artwork is done by folks who are going for a dramatic look rather than really knowing the mechanics of what they are creating. And, it seems there are precious few new ideas floating around out there. Take a look at Hollywood movies and you can see the same thing over and over and over again.

The Exorcist rarity may also have to do with its creation. As I recall from the 2E Sisters Codex, the Immolator was a design discovered within a Sisters holding and the Adeptus Mechanicus build the tanks for them in exchange for having been provided with the designs. Unbeknownst to the Sisters, the Mechanicus took that design and modified it heavily to create the Hellhound tank which they produce for the Imperial Guard. The Exorcist and its multiple missile launcher array may be a similarly discovered piece of archeo-tech that is produced in limited quantities for the Sisterhood. There is not much fluff on the origins of the vehicle since the Witch Hunters Codex was created while GW was still saying no to fluff. Old Codicii were loaded with fluff, and pretty poorly organized. 3E was pretty well organized but sorely lacking on fluff. 4E was bringing fluff back but still sensibly organized. Now 5E has fluff but is again losing the organization, like the 2E Codicii. Everything old is new again and I do like the new Codicii but I really liked having everything relating to a unit in one place and not having to thumb between two or three sections of a book to see all of the rules for a unit.

[Melissia]

Unbeknownst to the Sisters, the Mechanicus took that design and modified it heavily to create the Hellhound tank which they produce for the Imperial Guard.
Yeah, uh... that's obviously a piece of bad fluff. The Immolator is, essentially, a Razorback with a slightly different design. If the Mechanicus could turn a rhino into a chimera, why not just do so?

[Nabterayl]

Do you have a source for that, RogueGarou?

[Valkerie]

Page 46 of the 2nd Ed. Sisters of Battle codex. Actually, it says the Ad Mech later developed the Hellhound, but the source of its design has been kept secret from the Ecclesiarchy. Since the Ministorum laid exclusive claim to any new tech discoveries from the original design, this points to some definate tensions between the two organizations.
BTW, it's kind of fun reading the old codices and seeing how the fluff has changed over the years.

[Nabterayl]

So ... does it actually say, straight out, that the Hellhound was developed from the Immolator?

Even if it did, there's a relatively easy retcon/gloss here, I think. The Immolator's STC data was only half complete, and its flamer turret is arguably better than most heavy flamer turrets. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to gloss "developed from" as "inspired by."

[Valkerie]

So ... does it actually say, straight out, that the Hellhound was developed from the Immolator?

Even if it did, there's a relatively easy retcon/gloss here, I think. The Immolator's STC data was only half complete, and its flamer turret is arguably better than most heavy flamer turrets. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to gloss "developed from" as "inspired by."
GW say anything straight out? Don't expect much, do you? lol. That being said, I agree with you, 'developed from' or 'inspired by', I guess it really depends on what you want it to be. Given the differences in capabilities of the two weapons, I feel that the Hellhound was probably 'inspired by' instead of 'developed from'. Personally, however, I like the idea that the AdMech pulled a fast one on the Ministorum, after all, in this kind of political system, every organization would be jockeying for more power and influence, and attempting to shank everyone else.

[Valkerie]

We don't know. That's really the only answer to this. GW has not deemed it important enough to expand upon-- we don't know the answer to any of these questions, and my only speculate. For that matter, for the most part we don't even know how Sororitas are going to get from planet to planet, and from orbit to planet once they arrive, and can only guess that either the Ecclesiarchy has the influence to be able to order Naval units around (which seems unlikely to me) or the Ecclesiarchy is rich enough to pay them off (which is likely... but it just seems like a cheap cop-out IMO).
I can't find the reference right off hand, but somewhere I remember reading that each of the Adepta Sororitas Orders have their own fleets under the control of the Canoness. This would simplify their logistics problems. Of course, I could be remembering this incorrectly, or GW could have changed the fluff.

[Melissia]

If you can cite a source that'd be awesome. It would make sense, but I don't remember reading it, ever.

[Valkerie]

If you can cite a source that'd be awesome. It would make sense, but I don't remember reading it, ever.
Just found it. Page 39 of the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis. "Each Convent has its own fleets and runs its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters". Granted, we're talking 17 years ago, so that may not be accurate anymore, but, still.

[Melissia]

Considering it's literally the ONLY thing that's been said about the subject, it's all we have to go off of.

[Just_Me]

There is also the fact that a Sororitas ship actually makes an appearance in the Daemonifuge comics (it's pretty coll looking too).

[Nabterayl]

A "Sororitas ship" in the sense that it carries Sororitas? Or in the sense that it's captained by Sororitas?

[Just_Me]

A "Sororitas ship" in the sense that it carries Sororitas? Or in the sense that it's captained by Sororitas?

Strictly speaking it is identified as an Ecclesiarchy battleship, but it was carrying sisters and their equipment into battle (though that didn't really go so well...).

[Melissia]

There is also the fact that a Sororitas ship actually makes an appearance in the Daemonifuge comics (it's pretty coll looking too).

I'm not sure if I made this clear, but I consider Daemonifuge to be something of a non-entity.

[Cryl]

I'm not sure if I made this clear, but I consider Daemonifuge to be something of a non-entity.

Can I ask why? I'd never heard of these but a quick google gave me the gist. Are they particularly badly written or just very out of date?

[Melissia]

Because it contradicts the codex in a few places and I didn't really enjoy it to be honest, it's not that well written.

I don't rank Black Library books very high in canonicity to begin with mind you.

[Faultie]

Because it contradicts the codex in a few places and I didn't really enjoy it to be honest, it's not that well written.

I don't rank Black Library books very high in canonicity to begin with mind you.

I don't generally dismiss Black Library books out of hand, but I consider them (and the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trade RPG books) supplementary to what I call "True-Canon", which is the fluff in the Rulebooks. Where contradiction occurs, the Rulebooks are always right.

[imperialsavant]

Because it contradicts the codex in a few places and I didn't really enjoy it to be honest, it's not that well written.

I don't rank Black Library books very high in canonicity to begin with mind you.

:eek: Actually "daemonfugue" is a Graphic or Comic novel & really does not equate with the great BL Novels.
Have you read any of the Dan Abnett books Melissa?
Also Faith & Fire was a pretty good Sisters book.
For a fun take on 40k plus good action the Caiphus Cain novels are hard to beat. ;)

[Melissia]

Yes yes, there's some occasional decent stories. Doesn't change the fact that most BL books are crap, nor does it change the fact that BL books regularly contradict the codices, especially ones involving Sisters.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Yes yes, there's some occasional decent stories. Doesn't change the fact that most BL books are crap, nor does it change the fact that BL books regularly contradict the codices, especially ones involving Sisters.

yeah, most of them feel like hollywood CGI action films put into book form. It aint no arthur c clarke or olaf stapledon. prefer to stick to codex fluff as well.

[Cryl]

I dunno, I think there's a time and a place for pulp sci-fi as well as the decent stuff... I was complaining on a similar vein that the BL books didn't really measure up to people like Iain M Banks, my friends response was "yeah but sometimes you don't want to read something like 'Use of Weapons', some days you just want to read about genetically engineered killing machines using those weapons". I guess those days are BL days :)

In case people aren't familiar with Banks, Use of Weapons is arguably the best of his 'Culture' sci-fi novels (imo anyway)

[Melissia]

Dunno, I never liked that kind of fiction. if I wanted that I'd go play an FPS game....

[druchi]

Hey there I read through most of the pages and I just have to add my own view to this.

I have a rather large IG force and i always take a squad of sisters with it, so alot of what you where saying about sisters being seconded to units I can see happening. Not just that but I do believe that sisters are not exactly meant for large front line combat (Apocalypse) and are more speartip units or used to increase other units E.G Guardsmen as they are a unit multiplier increasing the effectiveness of other troops and being a huge morale boost.

Not to say sister cannot be devastating on the offensive (I learned this all to well) they really can be nasty all those flamers and melta's but as with space marines on the table top, is this the way they would act on a real battlefield?

Another unit I would compare them too is the Waffen SS (overdone I know) but before the invasion of Poland where they where still an independent organisation from the army commanders and where very eager for combat. (too eager as Cain said?)

So we have an extremely fanatical unit of warrior nuns that perhaps hasent got the greatest tactical thinking (spare me Melissa) but far more likely to run forward and burn as many things as possible, defence of shrine worlds would probably make them foam at the mouth as they martyr themselves to defend their holy relics. Independent of Guard high command but often seconded to them as a force multiplier, although on their own they are elite commando units operating as speartip or flank takers as well as a tough (Power armour) and with an extremely high damage output at mid to close range but lacks in the long range AT making them unsuitable for holding ground for prolonged periods without support.

Although I tend to stick em in a valk and let fly with the flamer love being a good objective holder/taker for their points.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Did anyone mention the Palatine Crusade?

[Melissia]

Not to say sister cannot be devastating on the offensive (I learned this all to well) they really can be nasty all those flamers and melta's but as with space marines on the table top, is this the way they would act on a real battlefield?

Yes, actually. In smaller conflicts and urban warfare especially. Nothing matches the Guard's ability in huge planet-wide conflicts, but deploying a massed Sisters formation is like deploying a warhammer to shatter a glass trinket.

And the warhammer is made of fire.

[Nabterayl]

Another unit I would compare them too is the Waffen SS (overdone I know) but before the invasion of Poland where they where still an independent organisation from the army commanders and where very eager for combat. (too eager as Cain said?)

So we have an extremely fanatical unit of warrior nuns that perhaps hasent got the greatest tactical thinking (spare me Melissa) but far more likely to run forward and burn as many things as possible, defence of shrine worlds would probably make them foam at the mouth as they martyr themselves to defend their holy relics.
I think we are all in agreement that the sisters' religious zeal will sometimes override their tactical judgment. I think that's a better way to phrase it, though - all the evidence points to sisters having better training as soldiers than most. Of course, giving a moron the best training in the Imperium still won't make her a tactical genius, but I think we are justified in saying that sisters, on the whole, have better-than-average tactical judgment. As for whether they follow that judgment ... as we've all said at various points in this thread, sometimes they don't, for religious reasons. Sometimes (as in Faith and Fire) they even recognize that they're allowing religious motives to override tactical sense, and they do it anyway.

[Duke]

I think we are all in agreement that the sisters' religious zeal will sometimes override their tactical judgment. I think that's a better way to phrase it, though - all the evidence points to sisters having better training as soldiers than most. Of course, giving a moron the best training in the Imperium still won't make her a tactical genius, but I think we are justified in saying that sisters, on the whole, have better-than-average tactical judgment. As for whether they follow that judgment ... as we've all said at various points in this thread, sometimes they don't, for religious reasons. Sometimes (as in Faith and Fire) they even recognize that they're allowing religious motives to override tactical sense, and they do it anyway.

Such is the basic nature of faith.

Duke

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Yes, actually. In smaller conflicts and urban warfare especially. Nothing matches the Guard's ability in huge planet-wide conflicts, but deploying a massed Sisters formation is like deploying a warhammer to shatter a glass trinket.

And the warhammer is made of fire.

Who's going to hold it then?

[Nabterayl]

If you care about getting burned by the warhammer, you weren't worthy to hold it anyway.

[Melissia]

Who's going to hold it then?

Sisters have a long history of defensive operations, even if they tend to function best doing it in an irregular way (Praxedes delaying an entire hive fleet with a hit and run campaign comes to mind).

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Sisters have a long history of defensive operations, even if they tend to function best doing it in an irregular way (Praxedes delaying an entire hive fleet with a hit and run campaign comes to mind).

I meant the fiery hammer.

[Melissia]

Duh, the Sisters.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Who's going to hold it then?
Maybe I will?
OH CRAP I'M AN ENT!

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Duh, the Sisters.

Fire isn't solid, so to weild it as a solid must require some form of manipulation through supernatural means, meaning:



WITCHCRAFT




You of all people know that you must be purged.

[Subject Keyword]

Fire isn't solid, so to weild it as a solid must require some form of manipulation through supernatural means


Like, an Avatar? They're made of Lava...

[Magos]

Its the Eldar...we dont question what the Eldar can do.
Or something, honestly, the Avatar is the power of a god or something.

Which doesnt make it immune to a Baneblade
I love Dawn of War

[Melissia]

I'll hold my fire by punching you in the face if all else fails. With a power armored fist. Which is on fire.

[Duke]

I'll hold my fire by punching you in the face if all else fails. With a power armored fist. Which is on fire.

What if you could set your fire.... On FIRE!

Duke

[Valkerie]

Because of their faith, Sisters have a partial immunity to psychic powers. Any psychic power used on a Sisters unit is negated on a 5+ on the gametable. One of the things I didn't like about 'Faith and Fire' is that every time a psyker uses his or her powers on the Sisters, they take the full effect. I realize this is for dramatic purposes, but, still, it would have been nice to have something like, "The psychic attack was powerful enough to affect the Sisters, despite their faith in the Emperor's protection."

Otherwise the book was pretty good and dealt with not only the military actions, but also with the politics involved in getting anything done. Kind of a nice change of pace where the Inqusition just comes in and runs roughshod over the locals.

[Nabterayl]

I dunno, Valkerie. In Dark Heresy, sisters don't have some kind of always-on partial immunity to psychic powers either. This leads me to believe that the tabletop exaggerates the effectiveness of Shield of Faith in order to make it something that has tabletop relevance.

[Melissia]

Actually they do, in a sense, it's just different and mostly focuses on daemons; they are immune to the effects of daemonic presence, and have other abilities that can be activated with fate points, spent or burnt. My Sororitas character used one of those abillities to exorcise a daemon with nothing but a quick prayer and a glare.

I would agree that the tabletop game exaggerates it for gameplay purposes, but even in DH faith is indeed a buffer against the warp and psychological effects, as well as psychic powers.

[Valkerie]

[QUOTE=Nabterayl;35678].

Ammunition
Ammunition usage in this book seems dictated more by the law of dramatic tension than by careful attention to how much ammo a Sororitas carries (Miriya's plasma pistol in particular - either (i) her gun has a way higher capacity than the five-shot patterns we see space marines using, (ii) she is absolutely festooned with power packs, or (iii) she has as much ammo as Jim Swallow needs her to have ;)). However, if we're willing to put on our fanboy hats and scrape the bottom of the data barrel, we notice that Miriya's squad runs completely out of ammunition after, at most, (i) the attack on the city of Metis, (ii) the fight with the priests in the Null Keep, (iii) fighting their way up to the engine, and (iv) a firefight with daemons, all in the course of a single day.

The interesting thing about this fact pattern is that they all take place in a single day, and the celestians presumably loaded for bear at the outset since they were attacking a city-state with orders to level it. Yet during the attack on Metis itself the squad was presumably mostly mounted (seeing as their sister superior spent virtually the entire battle manning an Immolator turret). The fight with the priests in the Null Keep was sharp, but short. The passage up to the engine is not described completely, but it's certainly implied that they don't meet heavy resistance. And in the firefight with the daemons, which is also short, they run out of ammunition.

Thus, I think it is fair to state that Faith and Fire backs up the deduction that a full load of ammunition for a Sororitas would not see her through even a single day's heavy fighting.

Power Armor
We know from IA3 that simple autocannons can knock a power-armored Astartes off his feet and even wound him beyond his ability to continue to fight (if not necessarily kill him). We see in Faith and Fire power-armored Sororitas killed by simple autocannon as well (which implies that it's just Astartes physiology which allows them to survive crippling autocannon wounds). We also see an armored celestian injured by a stake crossbow that pierces her shoulder. All of this, I think tends to support the position that power armor does not let a warrior ignore cover (indeed, we see armored Sororitas routinely making use of cover against both superior and inferior forces), even against small arms.

QUOTE]

In Faith and Fire, the Sisters have Rambo's Hollywood Everfull Magazine, aka the Infinity Clip. They only run out when it's dramatically necessary. This also allows them to fire their machine guns constantly without having the mechanism jam or the barrel melt. I've been trying to find these for my company IRL, because I hate carrying ammo. So far, no luck.

On the power armor, if the enemy can see you, they can shoot at you. If they shoot enough, they can bring you down. Sisters, being highly trained (and expensive) troops, would not want to waste themselves anymore than was necessary. After all, if you're dead, you can't purge any heretics.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I am pretty sure an Autocannon (depending on the author) ranges from a .50cal equivalent to a real no **** cannon equivalent. So dont put to much stock in it. Power armor DOES allow you to operate without cover, thats its purpose, you can still die though, thats just math.

[Nabterayl]

I am pretty sure an Autocannon (depending on the author) ranges from a .50cal equivalent to a real no **** cannon equivalent.
The "autocannon" as used in the Gaunt's Ghosts books I've read is pretty clearly a medium machine gun. At one point in Necropolis Corbet is carrying an "autocannon" with several thousand rounds on his loader (I forget the exact figure; don't have the book with me) and estimates that that's good for three minutes of sustained fire. In the same book, "autocannons" are mounted on bipods, while heavy stubbers (which are roughly .50 cal) are mounted on tripods. Those two facts make it pretty clear that an "autocannon" to Abnett is an MMG, not a man-portable Bushmaster. The projectiles are explosive, so an Abnett autocannon is a "cannon" in the sense that it fires explosive shells, but in caliber it's seems to be closer to 7.62mm, or possibly even 5.56mm, than anything we see on the tabletop.

The autocannons I'm citing, on the other hand, pretty clearly are self-loading light cannon (i.e., 25mm and up, firing explosive shells). The autocannons from Missile Silo Decima are explicitly the familiar S7 A4 heavy 2 weapons from the tabletop, as they are mounted on a Hydra turret. The autocannons defending the walls of Metis from Faith and Fire aren't quite so specific, but they threaten Sororitas armored vehicles, which also places them in the "true autocannon" range. Both sources provide good solid evidence that neither space marine nor battle sister can take a direct hit from a 25mm+ explosive shell and expect to continue to fight. The armor may be fine, but the occupant may well be put out of action, even with an Astartes physiology (though the Astartes will probably live to fight another day).


Power armor DOES allow you to operate without cover, thats its purpose
This seems to me to be overstating the case. Body armor has so far not been intended to allow a fighter to operate without cover; why would better body armor change that? As you point out, the unanimous testimony of our sources is that even a power-armored space marine can be killed by a lasgun. You don't survive several dozen combat drops by ignoring the basic principles of a firefight just because your kit is better than your opponent's. Power armor certainly increases a soldier's chances of surviving fire in the open, and expands a soldier's range of non-suicidal options in desperate situations, but I cannot imagine any armorer ever thinking to himself, "This invention of mine is so good, soldiers will no longer ever want to take cover!"

[DarkLink]

This seems to me to be overstating the case. Body armor has so far not been intended to allow a fighter to operate without cover; why would better body armor change that? As you point out, the unanimous testimony of our sources is that even a power-armored space marine can be killed by a lasgun. You don't survive several dozen combat drops by ignoring the basic principles of a firefight just because your kit is better than your opponent's. Power armor certainly increases a soldier's chances of surviving fire in the open, and expands a soldier's range of non-suicidal options in desperate situations, but I cannot imagine any armorer ever thinking to himself, "This invention of mine is so good, soldiers will no longer ever want to take cover!"

What Power Armor really does is provide near-complete protection from small arms fire and shrapnel. When the majority of bullets headed your way aren't powerful enough to penetrate your armor, you gain the ability to maneuver without impedance. The enemy has to hit you with a big gun to take you down. You effectively ignore 3/4 of the enemies force, and once that's gone you can mop up the rest at your leisure.

Now of course, that depends on the level of protection the armor offers, but it'd be near impossible to pin down a unit of Sisters or Space Marines without heavy weapons, and if you can't pin them down they can get up in your face where their superior weapons, training and armor will win them the day. It's no wonder why Space Marines focus so heavily on close quarters combat. If you can grab them by the belt, they'll be too busy dying to be able to bring heavy weapons to bear, or get in a really lucky lasgun shot.

[Melissia]

Before anyone says anything, note that the third edition (and thus most recent) codex states that the armor the Sororitas wear provides the same level of protection as that the Astartes wear.

[Fellend]

Yes but without the boosting abilities of the Astartes version (see DH corebook)

The autocannon is a weapon much like many others in the 40k universe. It varies from planet to planet, some being able to fire a devastating amount of bullets with smaller (less?) caliber while others fire less shots but more powerful ones.

Even though the power armor of the adeptus astartes are able to turn away autocannon fire and worse there are chinks in the armor. where the flexibilty of the armor makes it impossible to add full protection
(soul drinker series) (horus heresy series) (space wolves)

It's mentioned in soul drinker that they learn to target the soft areas in the armor to kill their traitor opponents, I assume these to be the parts the joints

Also in a gaunts ghost a las sniper kills a dreadnaught by targeting the eyes. So power armor might turn away powerful shots, it still has it's weak spots.

[Nabterayl]

Even though the power armor of the adeptus astartes are able to turn away autocannon fire and worse there are chinks in the armor. where the flexibilty of the armor makes it impossible to add full protection (soul drinker series) (horus heresy series) (space wolves)

This seems to me to be the critical thing about power armor. Certainly there are situations when it's to a warrior's benefit to be able to charge through a hail of small arms fire, as DarkLink points out. The fact that such a maneuver is even in a sister's or a marine's toolkit is a big deal, and surely has an important psychological impact.

However, I can't imagine any power armored warrior doing this sort of thing on a regular basis and surviving for long. Surely both marines and sisters are keenly aware of the fact that it only takes one lucky shot to bring them down, despite their armor, and are good enough soldiers not to tempt fate like that when they have other options. Why charge across open ground and run the 5% risk that you get popped when you can have your squad mates lay down covering fire and then charge across open ground?

Superior kit isn't about allowing you to be sloppier, it's about allowing you to kick even more *** than you did before. A sister or a marine doesn't get issued power armor and say, "Oh, now I don't have to bother with all that nonsense about fire and movement and the use of cover and supporting fire. I can ignore all that stuff and still come out with the same margin of victory, thanks to my magical power armor." They say, "Oh, now that I have power armor and I know all about fire and movement and the use of cover and supporting fire, it's even more unfair for my opponents!"

[Cryl]

Superior kit isn't about allowing you to be sloppier, it's about allowing you to kick even more *** than you did before. A sister or a marine doesn't get issued power armor and say, "Oh, now I don't have to bother with all that nonsense about fire and movement and the use of cover and supporting fire. I can ignore all that stuff and still come out with the same margin of victory, thanks to my magical power armor." They say, "Oh, now that I have power armor and I know all about fire and movement and the use of cover and supporting fire, it's even more unfair for my opponents!"

Exactly Nabterayl, it's about adding extra options. Clearing a building is no longer the traditional room by room, entering through the door business that it is for 'regular' forces. Autosenses now provide exact positions of the enemy within the building, power armour aided strength allows troops to make their own entrances through walls rather than going in through the door etc. These options improve the situation on the battlefield for the power armour wearing units and make it worse for their opponent.

Sure the strength enhanced wall punching trick may be limited to Astartes rather than Sororitas but the Sororitas still gain extra options from having the equipment.