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Regnir
04-29-2013, 01:12 PM
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/ - Google 404, site not found "that is all we know"

http://natfka.blogspot.com/ - Blog does not exist. Name is not available for blogs.

Uhhh... WHUT?

Defenestratus
04-29-2013, 01:17 PM
They both run on blogger IIRC.

I wonder if there's a wider issue going on.

chaoslord
04-29-2013, 01:46 PM
Hey def, chaoslord3436 here from faeit came here to find out what is going on, faeit hasnt been shut down has it?

Baron.roboto
04-29-2013, 02:09 PM
Bizarre coincidence if nothing sinister... Looks like every other blogspot site is up, so why these two; aside from the connection of Faeit posting rumours on both sites?

Defenestratus
04-29-2013, 02:24 PM
I asked BigRed and he says its a blogger outage.

Baron.roboto
04-29-2013, 02:33 PM
I asked BigRed and he says its a blogger outage.

Ah, well that's a relief! Still don't get the selective outage, but glad it's only temporary...

Baron.roboto
04-29-2013, 02:56 PM
Erm...

http://chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=928410

Zweischneid
04-29-2013, 03:05 PM
Yeah. Apocalypse40K is gone too.

That said, Blogger Blogs that didn't post pics (www.fritz40k.com) are still up.

http://pinsofwar.com/games-workshop-files-dmca-complaint-to-google-faeit212-down/

Defenestratus
04-29-2013, 03:47 PM
Erm...

http://chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=928410

Welp.

glayvin34
04-29-2013, 03:54 PM
Welp.
Soooo...
Did GW just directly attack their most enthusiastic fans for showing early pics of White Dwarf? I don't think that's going to prevent folks from seeing those pics or generate more fans.

Rich_B
04-29-2013, 04:57 PM
Soooo...
Did GW just directly attack their most enthusiastic fans for showing early pics of White Dwarf? I don't think that's going to prevent folks from seeing those pics or generate more fans.

Seems more likely an overreaction by the service provider, pulling the sites rather than just removing the comments. It's a fairly standard reaction that we've seen before when legal notices start flying. They don't ask for the sites to be taken down anywhere in there, just for the specific material to be removed.

Of course, if they didn't ask the blog owners nicely first and get refused before throwing legal notices around then yeah, that makes them dicks ;-)

GordPotts
04-29-2013, 05:13 PM
Could be a case of someone interpreting "remove the content" to be remove the page the content was on. Still, it should be possible for the pages to come back with either a new host or the same one without the aforementioned copyrighted materials. Unless I'm missing some of the finer points of web hosting...

Zweischneid
04-29-2013, 05:39 PM
Of course, if they didn't ask the blog owners nicely first and get refused before throwing legal notices around then yeah, that makes them dicks ;-)

Actually, they do.

Apocalypse40K got a DMCA (http://chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=918221), but his blog is still up. Only had to scrap the one post.

Faeit212 was given the same treatment the last, dunno-how-many-times.

I remember his Fantasy Warriors of Chaos post going down in January (http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=786609)

Even older DMCAs : http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=668987

Right or wrong, this one wasn't the first, or out of the blue. Faeit212 had those letters before and he knew GW was taking action (and Google non to pleased).

The Madman
04-29-2013, 05:43 PM
GW need to get with the times already and start revealing their future releases online and not in a monthly magazine that only their most dedicated fans are going to buy. seriously, I've only bought the most recent White Dwarfs because of sites like Faeit212 have shown me what's coming up. White Dwarf should be an extension of the hobby not a method to bring in more customers because I'm pretty sure people today aren't going to throw £5.50 at a hobby magazine they know nothing about (and hell the magazine is written for the more seasoned hobbyist) rather then look at their website.

those 30+ pages they wasted having a model w*** could go towards actual hobby articles about making terrain or new rules for variations like Chapter Approved.

Defenestratus
04-29-2013, 05:51 PM
Soooo...
Did GW just directly attack their most enthusiastic fans for showing early pics of White Dwarf? I don't think that's going to prevent folks from seeing those pics or generate more fans.

Pretty much. GW trying to put the internet in a box again.

The kicker is that these pics are FREE ADVERTISING for GW.

The only things posted are the model pics. The model pics are available at pre-order date at the GW website - there's nothing here that's against GW's best interests.

What a ****ty company that treats its biggest fans like this. In one year I've turned from the biggest GW fanboy to holding nothing but contempt for them. How much good have Natfka and BoLS done for the hobby that is GW's lifeblood - all for little to no return.

I'm just waiting until the usual GW apologists trot out and dole out the party line. Mr Mystery and Eldargal are first in line. Batter Up!

DanTheGameMan
04-29-2013, 06:10 PM
And to think, we were JUST on the cusp of Eldar-rumor season....

Rules rumors are all well and good, but the loss of pics is a big downer :(

Loken
04-29-2013, 06:14 PM
Yeah. Apocalypse40K is gone too.



Nope. My site is not down and hasn't been. See my post.

Alec

Bigred
04-29-2013, 06:20 PM
Hi guys,

A formal heads up.

We are working with Blogger to figure out what's up with the frontpage.

The domain is fine, and the Lounge is (obviously) in fine shape.

We are still proceeding under the impresison that we are dealing with an internal Google IT issue.

We have received no takedown requests, or any emails from any parties regarding any IP related issues.

We are treating this outage as out top priority and working on it round the clock.

I can not speak to the outages of any 3rd party sites, or the timing involved with them.

Thanks and feel free to visit the Lounge even more in the hours ahead.

-Larry

Loken
04-29-2013, 06:21 PM
http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2013/04/bols-and-faeit212-down-faeit212-out.html


I just spoke to Larry, did a little research, and posted an article.

Alec

natfka
04-29-2013, 06:28 PM
the notices I have received from Blogger are for individual posts, and declares that those particular posts are removed to draft status. Nothing from either Games Workshop or Blogger about the removal of the blog itself.

I will continue posting, and things will continue. so stay tuned.
until then I will be posting up on my youtube channel.

Ender
04-29-2013, 06:40 PM
this may be what brought Faeit 212 down

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=928410

MarneusCalgar
04-29-2013, 06:47 PM
the notices I have received from Blogger are for individual posts, and declares that those particular posts are removed to draft status. Nothing from either Games Workshop or Blogger about the removal of the blog itself.

I will continue posting, and things will continue. so stay tuned.
until then I will be posting up on my youtube channel.


Good news then!

Which is your youtube channel?

daboarder
04-29-2013, 08:04 PM
the notices I have received from Blogger are for individual posts, and declares that those particular posts are removed to draft status. Nothing from either Games Workshop or Blogger about the removal of the blog itself.

I will continue posting, and things will continue. so stay tuned.
until then I will be posting up on my youtube channel.

Nafka, You run on australian servers correct?

If so please send this to GW with a giant F*CK OFF! sign

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/


Fair dealing for purpose of reporting news
(1) A fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, or with an adaptation of a literary, dramatic or musical work, does not constitute an infringement of the copyright in the work if:

(a) it is for the purpose of, or is associated with, the reporting of news in a newspaper, magazine or similar periodical and a sufficient acknowledgement of the work is made; or

(b) it is for the purpose of, or is associated with, the reporting of news by means of a communication or in a cinematograph film.

(2) The playing of a musical work in the course of reporting news by means of a communication or in a cinematograph film is not a fair dealing with the work for the purposes of this section if the playing of the work does not form part of the news being reported.

CARNUSCAEDES
04-29-2013, 09:38 PM
Nafka, You run on australian servers correct?

If so please send this to GW with a giant F*CK OFF! sign



God Bless, the Lucky Country.

Alvarius
04-29-2013, 10:54 PM
GW need to get with the times already and start revealing their future releases online and not in a monthly magazine that only their most dedicated fans are going to buy. seriously, I've only bought the most recent White Dwarfs because of sites like Faeit212 have shown me what's coming up. White Dwarf should be an extension of the hobby not a method to bring in more customers because I'm pretty sure people today aren't going to throw £5.50 at a hobby magazine they know nothing about (and hell the magazine is written for the more seasoned hobbyist) rather then look at their website.

those 30+ pages they wasted having a model w*** could go towards actual hobby articles about making terrain or new rules for variations like Chapter Approved.

But that's exactly what WD has turned into since the new editor took over...
White Dwarf isn't really a hoby magazine any more. The few pages of articles are there only to give the impression that it is. It has been turned into a catalogue of buy-us-now products and nothing else. Call me old fashioned, but to me, after the new team steped in, WD has died. I miss the old, characteristic logo on the front cover... the drawn art just below it... the old battle reports with maps, "arrows" and markers... the witty comments, or narrative style.... I miss things like "A tale of four gamers", modeling advice etc.... the "Paint splatter" is a good idea.. but the rest... I want WD back to way it was when Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer was behind the wheel... or even Guy Healey... Now it's just become a marketing w**re.... "buy our s**t" and not much else.... gone is the passion for the hobby, replaced with the love of money. I understand business, but they don't seem to understand that their business is largely fueld by hobbyst passion...

In the last 2 years or so, GW has been killing everything we loved about it on an emotional level.... true, the quality of the products hase gone up (from a technological point of view) but the quality of service in relations to the fans, has gone down below sea level... The first signs of things going wrong were when WD editors started to change rapidly, and many of the iconic faces have left the studio (Alesio Cavatore & Pete Haines anyone? ). I've been in this hobby for over 15 years now... and it just pains me and burns, watching how something that was so fascinating, full of joy and passion has been draged down and suffocated by the greed and the only people that are trying to keep the old "hobby boat" afloat are being drowned in lawsuits...
Somebody there in GW HQ has been listening to "I am the one and only..." for far too long, and far too loud and is missing the point that it was / is / will be possible only if they start once again being a HOBBY COMPANY in all the aspects of the word, and not just a miniatures manufacturing company.

daboarder
04-29-2013, 11:19 PM
But that's exactly what WD has turned into since the new editor took over...
White Dwarf isn't really a hoby magazine any more. The few pages of articles are there only to give the impression that it is. It has been turned into a catalogue of buy-us-now products and nothing else. Call me old fashioned, but to me, after the new team steped in, WD has died. I miss the old, characteristic logo on the front cover... the drawn art just below it... the old battle reports with maps, "arrows" and markers... the witty comments, or narrative style.... I miss things like "A tale of four gamers", modeling advice etc.... the "Paint splatter" is a good idea.. but the rest... I want WD back to way it was when Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer was behind the wheel... or even Guy Healey... Now it's just become a marketing w**re.... "buy our s**t" and not much else.... gone is the passion for the hobby, replaced with the love of money. I understand business, but they don't seem to understand that their business is largely fueld by hobbyst passion...

In the last 2 years or so, GW has been killing everything we loved about it on an emotional level.... true, the quality of the products hase gone up (from a technological point of view) but the quality of service in relations to the fans, has gone down below sea level... The first signs of things going wrong were when WD editors started to change rapidly, and many of the iconic faces have left the studio (Alesio Cavatore & Pete Haines anyone? ). I've been in this hobby for over 15 years now... and it just pains me and burns, watching how something that was so fascinating, full of joy and passion has been draged down and suffocated by the greed and the only people that are trying to keep the old "hobby boat" afloat are being drowned in lawsuits...
Somebody there in GW HQ has been listening to "I am the one and only..." for far too long, and far too loud and is missing the point that it was / is / will be possible only if they start once again being a HOBBY COMPANY in all the aspects of the word, and not just a miniatures manufacturing company.

Please! WD is better than it has been in years. Its not the same as the glory days that are now a decade old but the latest reboot really managed to breath new life into the rag. Every issue has had large showcases of community contributed work that have seriously worked up my hobby fervour.

Alvarius
04-29-2013, 11:31 PM
Please! WD is better than it has been in years. Its not the same as the glory days that are now a decade old but the latest reboot really managed to breath new life into the rag. Every issue has had large showcases of community contributed work that have seriously worked up my hobby fervour.

As with every product, there are as many opinions as there are people involved. I just stated mine. True enough that WD has been given an "overhaul"... but to me, the only thing the only fact is that it has changed, and change (in the last period before it occured) was needed. I won't argue here. But to me (and in the eyes of all of my gaming friends) it has become a dry marketing tool instead of a hobby passion source complimented by product advertisement. That's why I've said that I want it to be back to how it's been when "Fat Bloke" was the editor. Back then it was "Look at how many awesome fun things you can do, and here are the materials you can buy to do them".Now it's "Here are things that you should buy...and here are some ideas how you can use them". To make it short and clear, in the past it was 70% Hobby + 30% advertisement. Now it's 70% advertisement + 30% hobby. And the new graphics layout... to me it's too boring and sterile. But like I've said, that's just the view me and my friends have (and I'm talking about my friends from different countries, not just my local club).

either way, you can't argue that the current GW politics are pissing off more and more people and killing all the sympathy in hobbyists... and GW will at one point have to aknowledge the fact that having good looking miniatures isn't something that will keep them afloat on its own.

eldargal
04-29-2013, 11:37 PM
either way, you can't argue that the current GW politics are pissing off more and more people and killing all the sympathy in hobbyists... and GW will at one point have to aknowledge the fact that having good looking miniatures isn't something that will keep them afloat on its own.
Yes you can, that is a highly arguable statement. More and more people seem to be pissed off because they are on the internet moaning constantly instead of actually taking responsibility for their own hobby.

WD has improved dramatically and I think it is continuing to improve, though slowly. The evolution of crisis suits in the April issue was a good step forward in my opinion and the terrain features, army showcases and kit bash sections are all very good in my opinion. As is the 'what's happening around the studio' section in the back. The paint splatter articles are also a very big hit with many of the more inexperienced or less confident painters in my games club and combined with the new paint range we are seeing them paint a lot more than ever before.

There is still a lot of room for improvement, I'd like to see things like terrain workshops where they show you how to build larger terain pieces in detail, scenario and narative campaigns included in the magazine in instalments rather than in campaign books like Crusade of Fire (though they are good too) and so forth. But it is far more than just a dry marketing tool now.

AnEnemy
04-29-2013, 11:45 PM
WD's just a rag most people read on the toilet. The only reason it's still around is that some people don't mind paying $9 for a catalog.

Psst...Forgeworld will send you one for free. Plus, they spare you the indignity of reading battle reports where codex authors screw up with their own armies.

T-bud
04-30-2013, 12:56 AM
I wish WD would start painting master class again, old style battle reports with maps and put the number back on the cover!

I do like the interviews with BL, FW and what the WD teams up to this month. Also thought the crisis suit history was good and would like to see more articles like this.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 01:19 AM
Yes you can, that is a highly arguable statement. More and more people seem to be pissed off because they are on the internet moaning constantly instead of actually taking responsibility for their own hobby.
In some cases that's prolly true... xept that here it's kind of missed... since I've started going deeper into the hobby I've created 3 different gaming clubs and have been involved in a multitude of different projects to expand the knowlegde and popularity of wargaming in my own area as well as helping my friends in different countries.... sad thing is that in most cases people tended to shift from GW games to things like Infinity, Hordes, Warmachine..even SW miniatures... why? 2 reasons: 1 (obviously) GW prices which are becoming more and more ridiculous (when a battleforce / batalion costs about 25% of your monthly pay and you're a kid who doesn't work, or are working but have to pay your bills and support your family, that's a big thing). 2. people getting pissed at GW going more and more for profit instead of being "for the people". Like I've said, I understand business, but they have been going a bit too far recently


WD has improved dramatically and I think it is continuing to improve, though slowly. The evolution of crisis suits in the April issue was a good step forward in my opinion and the terrain features, army showcases and kit bash sections are all very good in my opinion. As is the 'what's happening around the studio' section in the back. The paint splatter articles are also a very big hit with many of the more inexperienced or less confident painters in my games club and combined with the new paint range we are seeing them paint a lot more than ever before.

Again, I've said that Paint Splatter is a good thing. I'm not saying that WD has nothing to offer from the hobby-passion point of view. Just that since the editor changed, the main focus has been on marketing and the hobby part became an add-on. As an example take a random WD from 4-5 years back and compare it to one of the "new" issues. I'm not even gonna start about the "Golden Age" issues ( Armageddon 3rd / Storm of Chaos campaigns anyone? ). Also the new Battle Reports are... dry... for lack of a better word. The comments of the spectators are all nice and fine ( a good idea), but the rest... the army lists have been "confidential" points wise, so untill you buy a given codex you can't be sure if the army that "performed so well" in the BR, wasn't for instance 200pts bigger than the oposing one, or that it's composition was illegal / messed up. That wasn't the case with the BRs from the past. True, there were some mistakes (happens), or custom army lists, but every time it was either explained, or clear for all to see... but then again... if you had the full loadout and points cost right there in WD.. you didn't have to buy the codex / army book and could just play using the units / set up from WD... Many times in the past I've read the BRs like an extract from a good book. I watched the maps, saw the logic behind different tactics and learned new tricks... now... it's just empty and dry... only sometimes I come across something that makes me go "ok, that's good to know", while in the past it was not only informative, but it was fun and gave me plenty of laughs ( Chris byrne's Iron Warriors / Salamanders BR with Vathek clanging his head agains the bunker wall after an epic fail turn - something nice for all the veterans to remember ). not to mention the full story-like BRs that came out from time to time ( again, Armageddon 3rd ultra big multiplayer BR... pure epicness ). How about things like "A tale of 4 gamers" / or the Building an Army series? People could follow one of their own through the process of creating a whole army from the start. Some nice ideas for the vets, and a great guide for the newcommers. Another example? Look at the dev article when Dark Eldar came out, and look at the one about the Tau from the recent WD... read through the info you're getting about these armies... compare the actual info about the army and the process and thought behind it, to how much space the miniatures advertising part takes up. We got some info about some army specific rules... not all, but a few of them that gout us saying "wow. these rules make them really good"...example: "Dark Eldar are great, because they gather pain tokens that can give them feel no pain, make them fearless and provide other bonuses. Splinter weapons are all poison 4+. You can bring your troops in through the portal that your Archin can carry, thus your units can enter the battle closer to the enemy" etc. etc. now... a few hints, nothing solid xept "our models are AWESOME... and can do great stuff on the table, because they are awesome in their awesomness. Why? Because they are awesome.". True enough, there was mention of "overcharging the Riptide" and a "genestealer killing forcefield" on the Tau commander, which is an improvement from the previous new issues, but still, that's nothing compared to the old ones.
(just to make it clear to all the possible haters: the examples of rules given for the DE & Tau were not quotes... just a general compilation of the info presented in the articles )


There is still a lot of room for improvement, I'd like to see things like terrain workshops where they show you how to build larger terain pieces in detail, scenario and narative campaigns included in the magazine in instalments rather than in campaign books like Crusade of Fire (though they are good too) and so forth. But it is far more than just a dry marketing tool now.

I fully agree on all the improvements that you have mentioned. 100% The final sentence tho... When I've said "dry" I just reffered to (and I have indicated that at the start of my previous post) my personal opinion... because that's how it feels to me COMPARED TO THE WD IN THE PAST (sorry for the caps, but I just wanted to make that part clear for all the people that have trouble with understanding what they're reading - there's always some of them roaming the great Webway ;) ). I've mentioned it before: it's not 100% marketing... but when the past WDs were 70% hobby + 30% marketing, then new ones are 70% M + 30% H.....
And I really don't like the new logo and cover design... the ilustrations in the past were far more interesting to me... I just hope they don't do the same thing with the Codexes...codicies...you know.... and Armybooks.
( again, a drawing / ilustration makes you think of a book / comics... something with a story... narrative... a picture of a miniature....gives the impression of a catalogue. Not much else ).

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 01:20 AM
I wish WD would start painting master class again, old style battle reports with maps and put the number back on the cover!

I do like the interviews with BL, FW and what the WD teams up to this month. Also thought the crisis suit history was good and would like to see more articles like this.

I'm all for that.

Eupackardia
04-30-2013, 01:41 AM
Ah man, these types of news really takes the fun out of your day... and I JUST bought some new paint today to finish off the three terminators i started... Now it really sucks the enthusiasm i had all of a sudden to be honest. Still, I guess we have to see what comes out of all this.

My take on it is' GW's gone Heretic. The emperor has fallen into the hands of the Chaos Lords (the shareholders). We must take Terra back and cleanse this corruption! WHO'S WITH ME? (yeah why not start by writing a lil message to their customer service? Ya know, politely. as a mature community should) It probably won't do anything and ya won't get a reply, but maybe, just maybe they'll notice the Storm coming about them.

DeadPanda
04-30-2013, 01:43 AM
Soooo...
Did GW just directly attack their most enthusiastic fans for showing early pics of White Dwarf? I don't think that's going to prevent folks from seeing those pics or generate more fans.

I'm a bit of a GW fan, but in this instance I think they have gone too far. I can understand why but I think their missing the point that blogs like Faeit don't harm them in anyway but only promote their products in a generally positive way. The leaked pictures do nothing but excite the fans and the rumours keep us interested between WD issues. I also think GW maybe overstating just how many of their customers actually look at these types of forums and blogs. Out of my gaming group I'm the only one and I'm guessing as a rule its true that the majority of their customers only use WD Daily as their online gaming resource.

Anggul
04-30-2013, 01:51 AM
I would just buy the paint splatter page if I could, and maybe a couple of the other things in there.

And yeah, GW will continue to be afloat because they have right to 40k and Fantasy. If, somehow, another company had those rights as well, I'm pretty sure nearly everyone would move to said company and leave GW in the dirt, assuming they weren't even worse.

To be honest though, it's just the suddenly exorbitant pricing of the big monster kits and some of the finecast that gets me and I believe a lot of others. The other moaning people do just seems to stem from that. I mean, we all know that this is an expensive hobby, it always has been, but recently there have been monster kits costing £50. My Trygon cost me about £30, there's no reason for the Riptide to be £20 more than that. Also the Slaughterbrute/Mutalith, which don't look great and are also bad in-game, assuring that very few people will buy the kit. Some might have done so anyway to give them a go, but at that price it isn't something you'll just add to your cart.

Other than that they have, if anything, improved massively I think. The new codices and army books are flowing at a lovely rate and the rules are much better and more balanced. Yeah there's the occasional hiccup here and there but generally they're doing very well indeed. This is a minor thing considering how quickly things are being released anyway. Not so long ago we would have seen those pictures and assumed we would be waiting a very long time before we saw the models on the GW site. As of the last few months we can generally be quite confident that their release is imminent. Good things my friends, good things indeed.

Thus I have a good view of GW, peppered by the occasional insulting price tag on big beasties and finecast things (I'm looking at you, Dark Eldar Wracks :P).

Oh, and Forgeworld... them tags be crazy.

Zaphod Beeblebrox
04-30-2013, 01:57 AM
Sorry to spam with my own blog link here, but I wrote this before I found this thread.

This is for Gary. I loved Faeit 212. (http://masterminis.blogspot.de/2013/04/gws-legal-department-strikes-again-rip.html)

doogansquest
04-30-2013, 02:07 AM
Well, GW has grown in volume of sales, not just profit, when compared to PP the last 2 years. As for their prices: every miniature game is expensive. Walking through Adepticon booths for awhile made me miss GW prices - for far better miniatures at that. Hmm, do I want Mulg? Or for the same money buy a Hive Tyrant kit that's bigger, more detailed, easier to assemble and/or convert, and makes 3 different variants? It also won't shatter if it ever tips over. A Stormwall? Or a Baneblade PLUS a squad of Guardsmen? A squad of stupid looking Retribution cavalry? Or 3 squads of Chaos Knights?

Both companies have expensive books, so that's a wash.

"But...but...start up costs..." Yup, it's true. One is a game about a caster and his friends, the other is about freaking armies doing battle. Yet the basic infantry of said armies still look better than the unique characters of the other.

Encouraging their fans in the hobby? Like how Press Gangers at every turn at Adepticon were telling me how stupid and poorly written every other system is? How a judge at a PP tournament or painting competition will disqualify a player or painter if so much as one bit from another system is recognized? Meanwhile, GW encourages such conversion (while the base of the model is GW's) and has turned the bulk of their tournaments over to independent organizers so that the people have more input? How they have released new armies at an absurd pace for a year now? How FAQ's come bi-monthly? How the 6th ed rules set borrowed missions, tables, and adjustments from TO feedback? How they designed the 6th ed codices together so their rules would be balanced against each other? How they corrected oversights like Power Scroll, made splash releases, and continue to expand their universe into other genres? Man...they NEVER think of the customer's happiness. Their steady increase in sales (no, not short-term price increase gains...which would still imply people are buying anyway) says they are totally sinking!

Also, this is a hobby (miniatures) within a niche (table top) within a niche (gaming). Why should a kid who doesn't work be able to afford it? GW is never going to turn a profit thinking like Wal Mart with a product that will never be the biggest in gaming, let alone among the general public. Every single miniatures company is focused on profit. If you think any of them are customer-first and foremost, you are delusional. Profit is how a company can innovate, expand, create jobs, and adapt. No business survives otherwise, and no charitable contributor is going to view miniatures as a worthwhile cause (to slip the "non-profit organization" comments sure to follow).

White Dwarf is far closer to 35% adverts, 65% hobby now. Has been for a while. But guess what? Every miniatures magazine in the world focuses on...guess what? Miniatures for sale. GW has a larger volume of minis than the next 3 competitors combined, with far bigger releases and thus has to focus attention on them. And yes, I have issues of the mag from 5+ years ago. The current ones are far more enjoyable to read. The only reason there was less time spent on new models was because we often waited 6 months without anything new. Hardly reasonable in today's impatient society. There's really no valid argument against the current mag from anyone viewing it through non-jaded lenses.

People have been deciding, with their wallets, that the "GW sucks" view is in the slim, slim minority. Those people chanting it just happen to be the loudest.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 02:08 AM
I would just buy the paint splatter page if I could, and maybe a couple of the other things in there.

And yeah, GW will continue to be afloat because they have right to 40k and Fantasy. If, somehow, another company had those rights as well, I'm pretty sure nearly everyone would move to said company and leave GW in the dirt, assuming they weren't even worse.

To be honest though, it's just the suddenly exorbitant pricing of the big monster kits and some of the finecast that gets me and I believe a lot of others. The other moaning people do just seems to stem from that. I mean, we all know that this is an expensive hobby, it always has been, but recently there have been monster kits costing £50. My Trygon cost me about £30, there's no reason for the Riptide to be £20 more than that. Also the Slaughterbrute/Mutalith, which don't look great and are also bad in-game, assuring that very few people will buy the kit. Some might have done so anyway to give them a go, but at that price it isn't something you'll just add to your cart.

Other than that they have, if anything, improved massively I think. The new codices and army books are flowing at a lovely rate and the rules are much better and more balanced. Yeah there's the occasional hiccup here and there but generally they're doing very well indeed. This is a minor thing considering how quickly things are being released anyway. Not so long ago we would have seen those pictures and assumed we would be waiting a very long time before we saw the models on the GW site. As of the last few months we can generally be quite confident that their release is imminent. Good things my friends, good things indeed.

Thus I have a good view of GW, peppered by the occasional insulting price tag on big beasties and finecast things (I'm looking at you, Dark Eldar Wracks :P).

Oh, and Forgeworld... them tags be crazy.

Well I've said before, their products - from a technological point of view - have improved. The quality of the miniatures (xept for the "failcast" hiccups) is better than ever. The books are getting better quality-wise as well.
The prices are "strike 1"... throwing lawsuits agains people and websites that are helping expand the comunity, bu giving what GW doesn't (how's about an official GW message board?) is "strike 2" ... Both of these have gone up to ridiculous levels recently... so I just wonder when "strike 3" will happen and what it will be.

And yes, previously we saw the pictures of minis and had to wait for them to come out longer... because we were getting info much sooner, and in more detail... so people knew that it would be worth to start saving up cash for a given army...
To me GW is going for a more "people are for us" instead of "we are for the people" approach. Contact and working with the comunity should be the most important thing for this kind of company. Not just posting pics of people's minis on flickr or showing them in WD... but really interacting with the entusiasts... every day, not just durring events like Games Day. that's just my take on things.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent
04-30-2013, 02:20 AM
This thread is far too much tl;dr.

doogansquest
04-30-2013, 02:25 AM
Well I've said before, their products - from a technological point of view - have improved. The quality of the miniatures (xept for the "failcast" hiccups) is better than ever. The books are getting better quality-wise as well.
The prices are "strike 1"... throwing lawsuits agains people and websites that are helping expand the comunity, bu giving what GW doesn't (how's about an official GW message board?) is "strike 2" ... Both of these have gone up to ridiculous levels recently... so I just wonder when "strike 3" will happen and what it will be.

And yes, previously we saw the pictures of minis and had to wait for them to come out longer... because we were getting info much sooner, and in more detail... so people knew that it would be worth to start saving up cash for a given army...
To me GW is going for a more "people are for us" instead of "we are for the people" approach. Contact and working with the comunity should be the most important thing for this kind of company. Not just posting pics of people's minis on flickr or showing them in WD... but really interacting with the entusiasts... every day, not just durring events like Games Day. that's just my take on things.

It is just your take, and not the facts. Strikes by your account aren't going to be reflective of what's really happening. Protecting IP is nothing new, there's just more readily available coverage of it now.

As far as people saving up for a release based on knowing ahead: that is grade Q bologna and hasn't been reflected by any measure of market research or trends. Seeing as how GW's sales have gone up dramatically since tightening the lid, I don't even know how an argument can be made the other way. People are going to spend what they want to spend. Regardless of whether it is now or in three months. What far reaching rumors did do was kill the excitement as people knew about a release months in advance. Now everyone sees it and gets excited (positive or negative) and can immediately buy it within five days or so. If saving up is an issue...save up. Set aside a "gaming budget" every month. When something comes out you like, buy it. If not, stash it away and then you'll be able to buy a lot more later on. That's called being responsible with money.

Their customer service is pretty much spot on. Problem with a mini? Call and a new one will be on it's way before the conversation ends. They are currently building a community forum (shh...secret), and expanding their software to the better platform which will also include army building apps updated AA regularly as the books and FAQ's hit.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 02:31 AM
Well, GW has grown in volume of sales, not just profit

No it hasn't. Their own figures released in the CH dispute show volumes fell while profits rose.

kyfer
04-30-2013, 02:32 AM
Nafka, You run on australian servers correct?

If so please send this to GW with a giant F*CK OFF! sign

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/

Hobby Fascism :P

eldargal
04-30-2013, 02:39 AM
No it hasn't. Their own figures released in the CH dispute show volumes fell while profits rose.
Sales volume/revenue grew massively from 1999-2005, crashed in 2005/6 then was growing again 'til 2008 since then it has been declining. Probably due to European sales slowing considerably.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 02:42 AM
Indeed, but he said it had grown in the last two years. It hasn't.

eldargal
04-30-2013, 02:43 AM
Huh, read that as 12 years lol. I need to sleep more.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 02:47 AM
Doesn't everybody?

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 03:25 AM
I started playing before this new fangled interwebs took off, I got all my hobby news from white dwarf. I don't really care whether the rumour mongers get cease and desist personally, they are not essential. People are spoilt these days and like to whine. On the other hand, once the models go up for pre-order on GW, taking down white dwarf pics is a bit silly, but who knows, maybe they need to protect stuff for some legal reason.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 03:26 AM
Why are people getting thier panties in a bunch blaming GW when Natfka himself has said they asked him to remove pages and he's done that. GW were right and correct to set a DMCA for this, he posted pictures of their magazine!

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 03:30 AM
It is just your take, and not the facts. Strikes by your account aren't going to be reflective of what's really happening. Protecting IP is nothing new, there's just more readily available coverage of it now.

As far as people saving up for a release based on knowing ahead: that is grade Q bologna and hasn't been reflected by any measure of market research or trends. Seeing as how GW's sales have gone up dramatically since tightening the lid, I don't even know how an argument can be made the other way. People are going to spend what they want to spend. Regardless of whether it is now or in three months. What far reaching rumors did do was kill the excitement as people knew about a release months in advance. Now everyone sees it and gets excited (positive or negative) and can immediately buy it within five days or so. If saving up is an issue...save up. Set aside a "gaming budget" every month. When something comes out you like, buy it. If not, stash it away and then you'll be able to buy a lot more later on. That's called being responsible with money.

Their customer service is pretty much spot on. Problem with a mini? Call and a new one will be on it's way before the conversation ends. They are currently building a community forum (shh...secret), and expanding their software to the better platform which will also include army building apps updated AA regularly as the books and FAQ's hit.

From my first post in this thread I've been underlinig the fact that everything that I'm saying is BASED ON HOW I FEEL AND THE FEEDBACK I'M GETTING FROM MY FRIENDS AND PEOPLE IN THE LOCAL GAMING CLUBS. Besides, you seem to be missing two main points talking about the price tags:
1) the price - income relation is different in different countries. To somebody living in the UK a bump up of 5 quid isn't that big of a deal... but for people in another country that turns out into too much, and even if they love the hobby, they can't afford buying new stuff.
2) while it's true that wargaming is a niche, and thus can and is more expensive than many other kinds of hobbies, it doesn't justify the prices going up every year at such a rate. There was a "crisis-related" price boost (transport prices have gone up because of fuel prices going up, etc, etc.) and there were reasons for that based on what was happening (more or less) all over the world. Understandable...but then why the hell are the prices still going up at such a rate? Bigger kits, better technology.. all nice and fine.. but look at it long term... what will happen when this keeps going? Normal GW kits having the same price tags as Forge World sets? 50$ for a SM Tactical squad? If GW plans to become the provider of miniatures and games for a really limited select few, really wealthy people, then ok, it makes sense. But if they plan to expand and draw in new people then their current politics will only get them so far.

Either way, we have gone far from the main issue: GW throwing lawsuits all over the place. Where I could understand (a bit) when it happens to a company making cheaper "versions" of their miniatures... doing it to people who make and sell "custom conversion kits" is bull****. Not everything that GW makes is what people like, and not everybody is skilled to make a conversion on their own, to represent the concept that they came up with. Here come the "little helpers" with their kits... but GW says "NO! You either buy our stuff or gtfo." They aren't losing here as these companies make and sell stuff that is compatible, but different to what GW is making.... and I could understand some of it if for instance GW would release their own counterpart of such a set soon afterwards (suckerpunch, but the "need" for a given produc has been sattisfied ), but they don't. GW just goes "NO! there won't be anything like that.". And don't tell me that it's different, because they haven't touched for years on many concepts that they busted, even tho people were displaying genuine interest in them.

And going against non-profit websites which basically provide EXTRA FREE ADVERTISEMENT and help keep the interest in their products high is a giant WTF moment...
GW are working on a comunity forum? (you seem to be really well informed.. that would explain some things... ) Nice... it only took them some 10 years to notice what a powerfull tool it is... for an inovative company that's kind of a slow process... You know how many people see it? GW didn't have their own forum, because they wanted to avoid people pointing out how pissed they are about what the company has been doing. Having such entries on their official website would require them to react to it, because simply deleating them would just make the people that much more furious. Is that the truth? Who knows. but that's how many people think and they can't just ignore that fact.

Customer service? I agree 100%. It is really good and exept the fact that my friend had to do a multiple intervention once, because when he reported in with a messed up redeemer frame, they sent him another messed up one in return...twice. True enough, the 3rd time he got a full new kit.

I'm not saying GW is 100% bad. I am saying tho that in many aspects they ignore people, make stupid mistakes and get more and more profit orientated not through giving people passion and motivation, but by going "LOOK, we have something shiny".

Am I dilusional? To you perhaps. I will admit that I'm an idealist. I dream about a company that would be created by the people and for the people. Free? No. We live in an age where money and profit are just as important to survive as breathing... But a company who will be getting to the customers through passion and love of the hobby, working with the comunity on a regular basis, interacting with it all the time, day to day.Something that will be created and driven by other hobbyists not just marketing experts. You want a good example? Look at the Warzone Resurection project. Sure it's a different scale, but there you can see how it's done right.
As for GW... I'll just say this: When me and a few other people started asking "difficult questions" (in a polite and gentleman-like manner) on GW facebook pages... all our posts have been deleted within a day, along with all the related posts of other people who agreed with us. Is that a way to treat your customers?

eldargal
04-30-2013, 03:35 AM
I started playing before this new fangled interwebs took off, I got all my hobby news from white dwarf. I don't really care whether the rumour mongers get cease and desist personally, they are not essential. People are spoilt these days and like to whine. On the other hand, once the models go up for pre-order on GW, taking down white dwarf pics is a bit silly, but who knows, maybe they need to protect stuff for some legal reason.
Exactly, the hobby was healthy before rumourmongers, the idea that they are essential to the hobby is ridiculous. I enjoy keeping up to date with rumours as much as the next person (more so possibly given that I actively scout around for them to report them here) but if I can no longer do that it makes zero impact on my hobby enjoyment.


Why are people getting thier panties in a bunch blaming GW when Natfka himself has said they asked him to remove pages and he's done that. GW were right and correct to set a DMCA for this, he posted pictures of their magazine!
Because people are addicted to whining and they think GW have done some genuinely silly/overzealous things in the past that everything GW does is silly/overzealous.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 03:41 AM
Idk you could argue that the years the hobby were in expansion coincided with the roll-out of cheap pc and internet access.
And the declining sales volumes mean they've passed the optimum price point, but that's another argument...

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 03:42 AM
Why are people getting thier panties in a bunch blaming GW when Natfka himself has said they asked him to remove pages and he's done that. GW were right and correct to set a DMCA for this, he posted pictures of their magazine!


You know... while the law / regulations might allow them to do so.. try to looking at it from a logical point of view:
- he doesn't get any profit from it ( he's not selling it / charging people for looking at them)
- he posted a few example images, if you want to read the articles / know the details you still need to buy it
- he gave their product free advertisement ( look at this awesome stuff. you can see more of it in WD = go buy it )

In the same manner GW should sue everybody talking about anything they haven't released it. Whatever name they have TM'ed, you should pay them every time you say it... because it's their property. What about fan art? People who include their drawings / paintings / animations in their portfolio's and get jobs as artist based on that? As stupid as it sounds, in some countries the law makes it possible for GW to sue these people for using copyrighted images. While understandable in some cases, recently GW has started throwing lawsuits and claming copyright enfrenchment at a ridiculous rate.

Eric French
04-30-2013, 03:43 AM
3959omg new WD!

3960...we'll boycott GW cuz weer smarder then thim!

3961....more of the same.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 03:45 AM
I did a price comparison between average (median) reported income and the price of the tactical squad for the countries that GW sells to directly and while there is some variation, it is largely of a similiar ratio especially when one considers extral factors such as local tax and £/other value fluctuations (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29346-Price-Comparisons&highlight=wolfshade+cost+poland)

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 03:59 AM
You know... while the law / regulations might allow them to do so.. try to looking at it from a logical point of view:
- he doesn't get any profit from it ( he's not selling it / charging people for looking at them)
- he posted a few example images, if you want to read the articles / know the details you still need to buy it
- he gave their product free advertisement ( look at this awesome stuff. you can see more of it in WD = go buy it )

In the same manner GW should sue everybody talking about anything they haven't released it. Whatever name they have TM'ed, you should pay them every time you say it... because it's their property. What about fan art? People who include their drawings / paintings / animations in their portfolio's and get jobs as artist based on that? As stupid as it sounds, in some countries the law makes it possible for GW to sue these people for using copyrighted images. While understandable in some cases, recently GW has started throwing lawsuits and claming copyright enfrenchment at a ridiculous rate.

It doesn't matter if he's doing it for profit, he's doing it and they're asking him not to, they're within their rights to do that as they own it.

Say you drew a great picture and you were really proud of it and couldn't wait to show it off once it was finished? Then a blog showed everyone else the picture before you were ready, you'd be annoyed and ask the blog to take down the picture, same thing really. Doesn't matter if its "free advertisment", it wasn't asked for and they've specifically asked him to stop before, I love Natfka and I read his site and I still would if all the rumour mill stuff disappeared becuase he does interesting things like blog shares and guest articles now.

At the end of the day, GW is a business, if you can't afford GW games, thats not their problem and they have no requirement to cater to you. They do let sites make resin bits, why would they mind that, if someone sells resin helmets for space marines, they have to buy some space marines to put them on, what they do mind, and what chapter house studios did, was delibertly infringe on what GW saw as its IP, by copying their army insignia and style and also by using the trademarked names of their units.

As much as you want to believe that GW is the big bad, they're not, they're a hobby company making cool models for us to collect, you're not happy because you can't afford all the models you want, but newsflash, you'd never be able to afford all the models you wanted, if Tactical Squads were $5 you'd still complain because you wanted 3 whole chapters but could only afford 2. Their business is about making you want thier stuff, you'll always want more and they need to make sure you're never saited in that desire otherwise you'll stop buying.


They're entitled to do this, people buy White Dwarf to see the new units, its one of the reasons it still sells, so doing this has a genuine financial impact on GW

lattd
04-30-2013, 04:06 AM
Actually the law doesn't allow him to comment on a product not out yet. The comes from a common law perspective where a journalist got hold of a film before release and said it was rubbish because he had seen the unfinished version. So yes once the WD has been released and so have the miniatures feel free to discuss but until then the law won't help you.

Desaster
04-30-2013, 04:11 AM
I guess one of the issues is that the blogs featured advertisements, too - it is easy for GW to argue that they used leaked images to generate traffic they profited from.

Anyway, if you post leaked pictures you have to be aware that it can have repercussions.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 04:11 AM
I did a price comparison between average (median) reported income and the price of the tactical squad for the countries that GW sells to directly and while there is some variation, it is largely of a similiar ratio especially when one considers extral factors such as local tax and £/other value fluctuations (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29346-Price-Comparisons&highlight=wolfshade+cost+poland)

Well then I can just say one thing: (at least in my country) "average" is about 3 times (and often even more) as much as most people earn. If I earn some 400 quid a month and have to pay bills + buy food / clothes and other every day expences then even a single tactical box starts to become a big deal... not to mention a battleforce / batalion.

True enough, as my mentioned in that post.. it's much more difficult for people from my country to afford GW products... Some people here have missed that point... the fact that I've been repeating in each one of my posts, I'm saying how things look from my / my friend's perspective. If the people in the US / UK don't have a big problem with how GW acts, good for them.. too bad that they can't understand that others have it much harded and that's where the bitter comments come from.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 04:14 AM
Idk you could argue that the years the hobby were in expansion coincided with the roll-out of cheap pc and internet access.
And the declining sales volumes mean they've passed the optimum price point, but that's another argument...

No it doesn't, because declining sales with increased profits means they're moving towards the optimum price point, they're makinf more money at less cost, thats the optimum, why would they care if gamers are buying fewer models if they're making more money from those gamers?

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 04:15 AM
Well then I can just say one thing: (at least in my country) "average" is about 3 times (and often even more) as much as most people earn. If I earn some 400 quid a month and have to pay bills + buy food / clothes and other every day expences then even a single tactical box starts to become a big deal... not to mention a battleforce / batalion.

I think you're confused about that the word average means?

Its not GWs fault you can't afford their space mans, they're making more profit selling space mans to people who can afford it than they did making sure you could buy space mans. Do you really think they should drop the price of space mans and make less money so that you can afford to buy more space mans? If you can't afford a box of space marines every month, buy one every 2 months.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 04:20 AM
No it doesn't it suggests they've passed it. As there's a point were you will make far more through volume sales at a lower price point, eg minecraft and terraria when they were at a reduced price on steam, sales were reported to have gone up tenfold but they weren't a tenth of the price, -> more profit.

I'd respectfully suggest that's a translation issue, and he probably means the average is artificially skewed by a small pool of high earners.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 04:23 AM
I think you're confused about that the word average means?
Or it might be a matter of language barier. English (obviously) isn't my first language, and having a gf from the US we came up across plenty of words that while used as equivalents, are understood differently. Here the average pay is calculated:
desk worker - 1000$
CEO - 9000$
avg pay = 5000$

Its not GWs fault you can't afford their space mans, they're making more profit selling space mans to people who can afford it than they did making sure you could buy space mans.
true enough. At the same time, doesn't mean that I have to be happy or even remain unfazed when I see that my fav hobby, which I was able to afford for years, is now moving more and more out of my reach year after year.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 04:24 AM
I'd respectfully suggest that's a translation issue, and he probably means the average is artificially skewed by a small pool of high earners.

Exactly. Thx for understanding my broken English :)

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 04:25 AM
I think you're confused about that the word average means?

Its not GWs fault you can't afford their space mans, they're making more profit selling space mans to people who can afford it than they did making sure you could buy space mans.

No, no. He could be quite right, if the average were a mean and not a median. In employment stats very high salaries quite often significantly effect the average salary.

E.g. (from 2003-04 UK stats) median salary for 50-54 £17.2k, mean salary for 50-54 £24.5k.

IIRC though the OECD uses the median

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 04:28 AM
Exactly. Thx for understanding my broken English :)

No worries. Just apply common sense :D

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 04:28 AM
No, no. He could be quite right, if the average were a mean and not a median. In employment stats very high salaries quite often significantly effect the average salary.

E.g. (from 2003-04 UK stats) median salary for 50-54 £17.2k, mean salary for 50-54 £24.5k.

IIRC though the OECD uses the median


Oh i know, I was just being faesitious because of the way he phrased it.

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 04:30 AM
true enough. At the same time, doesn't mean that I have to be happy or even remain unfazed when I see that my fav hobby, which I was able to afford for years, is now moving more and more out of my reach year after year.

I agree with this bit, I haven't bought any models for months now.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 04:34 AM
No it doesn't it suggests they've passed it. As there's a point were you will make far more through volume sales at a lower price point, eg minecraft and terraria when they were at a reduced price on steam, sales were reported to have gone up tenfold but they weren't a tenth of the price, -> more profit.

I'd respectfully suggest that's a translation issue, and he probably means the average is artificially skewed by a small pool of high earners.

Thats exactly my point though, in their business, the lower price point hasn't lead to higher profits, more sales, yes, but not higher profits.

Using games isn't a good analogy for volume sales, once a computer game is written, its done, making new copies of games that only exist as data (like the 2 examples you mentioned) has negligable costs, so selling at any price will lead to a profit, and then if you increase sales ten fold, you will get an increase, there are no logisitics to take into account, so anything that generates sales is still going to lead to a profit.

GW operates its own manufacture supply and retail chain, an increase in sales actually costs more in logistics to supply those products to customers, so a ten fold increase in sales wouldn't equate to a ten fold increase in profits.

They're found an optimum for them, not for the customer. They're making more profits than ever before even though they're selling fewer products.

More profit is the optimum situation for the business.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 04:35 AM
No, no. He could be quite right, if the average were a mean and not a median. In employment stats very high salaries quite often significantly effect the average salary.

E.g. (from 2003-04 UK stats) median salary for 50-54 £17.2k, mean salary for 50-54 £24.5k.

IIRC though the OECD uses the median

In your survey you showed that for a tactical box we have to work an everage of just over 5 hours.. Here's a reality check (in a pure friendly way ;) ) in most cases people here earn between 1-2£ per hour.. so that puts us at a point when you have to work for 10-11 hours for a single tactical squad. this is why so many people here are pissed by the prices going up.


No worries. Just apply common sense :D

Trying, but sometimes it's really hard and frustrating when you're hitting a "wall" :/


Oh i know, I was just being faesitious because of the way he phrased it.

I phrased it as best as I could since english isn't my first language and it's not always easy to get a point through clearly, especially when it comes to economic issues.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 04:37 AM
I'll accept you couldn't reduce as low for fixed costs reasons but, there will be an optimum point that will be a peak on a graph, and by being in decline they have passed that point.
You can't continue though as if sales continue to decline, prices will have to go up again, possibly hastening the decline and it becomes a vicious cycle, sustainable profit is surely the optimum for a business, not a short term profit for a limited time?



Trying, but sometimes it's really hard and frustrating when you're hitting a "wall" :/

I meant I was applying it, don't worry my polish is awful...(none existent;))

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 04:41 AM
I'll accept you couldn't reduce as low for fixed costs reasons but, there will be an optimum point that will be a peak on a graph, and by being in decline they have passed that point.

No they haven't, they're making more profits than before they increased prices. thats the optimum situation! I really don't understand how you're failing to grasp this. The point on the graph where they want to be is where the profits are highest, thats where they are now, sale volumes don't matter to a company like this, they make a high end luxury product, not cheap, disposible stuff, they want to make as much money as possible and thats what they're doing.

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 04:43 AM
yes but selling each box for maximum profit does not automatically mean they make more money than if they were to sell more boxes for less profit each.

I used to work for a brewery that shared your mentality, 'times are good, put prices up! times are bad, better put prices up!' doesn't mean healthy sales.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 04:45 AM
No they haven't, they're making more profits than before they increased prices. thats the optimum situation! I really don't understand how you're failing to grasp this. The point on the graph where they want to be is where the profits are highest, thats where they are now, sale volumes don't matter to a company like this, they make a high end luxury product, not cheap, disposible stuff, they want to make as much money as possible and thats what they're doing.

That's a mixture of greed and short termism

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 04:45 AM
In your survey you showed that for a tactical box we have to work an everage of just over 5 hours.. Here's a reality check (in a pure friendly way ;) ) in most cases people here earn between 1-2£ per hour.. so that puts us at a point when you have to work for 10-11 hours for a single tactical squad. this is why so many people here are pissed by the prices going up.
I try to use only the countries officially published figures or oecd data rather than peoples experainces so as to avoid any selection bias of peoples experiances, as generally, people have friends and live near people who are in the same socio-economic group, i.e. people in similiar employment status.

For instance if I did the survey of people living london oand the same in the north east (of England) the average salary difference is somewhere in the region of 7/8k, then narrow that down to towns/areas within those differences become even larger.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 04:56 AM
yes but selling each box for maximum profit does not automatically mean they make more money than if they were to sell more boxes for less profit each.

I used to work for a brewery that shared your mentality, 'times are good, put prices up! times are bad, better put prices up!' doesn't mean healthy sales.

Thats not what GW have done though, they've worked out how many customers they can lose by increasing prices and still increase profits, this has worked for them and the earnings reports show that.


That's a mixture of greed and short termism

Thats what capatalism is.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 04:59 AM
The only issue is that Games Workshop continues to operate as if they are the only game in town. They don't accept that there is competition. They don't accept that technology has changed. They don't want to believe that they are NO LONGER making a luxury item. Wargaming has always gone in cycles. Games Workshop broke in when the cycle was at a low. They were producing what amounted to luxury products and were the only reliable source. Once a market was perceived to exist, more people got into it. The technology now allows other people to quickly get to the level of quality it took Games Workshop years to do. These problems aren't going to go away. I've got my popcorn and find it all very entertaining.

*What is beyond all doubt is that Games Workshop has a public relations problem. It is silly to blame that on the nameless faces of the internet. Companies that have a bad image bring it on themselves. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Do I think they can fix it? Sure. Do I think they will fix it? No. They have shown time and time again that they believe that you can force a square peg into a round hole. They are firm believers in the notion that they just need a bigger hammer. :)

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 05:00 AM
Surely the optimum price from your argument would have seen a stabilisation of volume, and higher increase in profit.

eldargal
04-30-2013, 05:00 AM
Remember GW is making a healthy profit at a time when most retail is not. If they keep this up then as the economy recovers people should be in employment and hopefully being paid more and they will have more disposable income.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 05:02 AM
Just a gentle nudge that this is rapidly dissolving into a GW pricing discussion, there are plenty of threads on that topic.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 05:05 AM
The only issue is that Games Workshop continues to operate as if they are the only game in town. They don't accept that there is competition. They don't accept that technology has changed. They don't want to believe that they are NO LONGER making a luxury item. Wargaming has always gone in cycles. Games Workshop broke in when the cycle was at a low. They were producing what amounted to luxury products and were the only reliable source. Once a market was perceived to exist, more people got into it. The technology now allows other people to quickly get to the level of quality it took Games Workshop years to do. These problems aren't going to go away. I've got my popcorn and find it all very entertaining.

*What is beyond all doubt is that Games Workshop has a public relations problem. It is silly to blame that on the nameless faces of the internet. Companies that have a bad image bring it on themselves. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Do I think they can fix it? Sure. Do I think they will fix it? No. They have shown time and time again that they believe that you can force a square peg into a round hole. They are firm believers in the notion that they just need a bigger hammer. :)

Except no other company has show they're capable of mass producing miniatures to the same scale with a quality anywhere near GWs, they're aware of competition but the competition is currently tiny compared to their market, and isn't capable of competiting on anything like their scale, so they don't need to worry, McDonalds isn't worried about Shake Shack, even though Shake Shack make better burgers, they don't currently have the infastructure in place to take much from McDonalds.

The 3D renders of products on Kickstarter aren't the same as a company making actual models and selling them around the world, PP is their biggest competitor and they're still making mixed plastic and metal kits, which shows how far behind they are in the technology.

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 05:06 AM
Thats not what GW have done though, they've worked out how many customers they can lose by increasing prices and still increase profits, this has worked for them and the earnings reports show that.

well you don't know that, the price has gone up steadily each year.

as EG says, they have done incredibly well in the current climate, though a lot of similar hobbies that might be stereotypically viewed as big boys toys, such as Hornby, airfix, radio controlled vehicles etc. have all proven fairly recession proof at the moment. middle aged, middle class men with disposable income have driven a lot of sales. I was in my local hobby store just after Christmas a a guy was looking at a radio controlled helicopter, he asked how much it was, staff said £450. wife walks out looking horrified, man nods and goes 'hmm very nice, might get one of those.'

Privateer Press' plastic models are resin too. technically, chemically etc. yes they are plastic, but a very different thing for hobbyists, and not nearly as good to work with as GW plastic.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 05:06 AM
Surely the optimum price from your argument would have seen a stabilisation of volume, and higher increase in profit.

Not when their business plan was about stabalising costs not volume of sales.

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 05:08 AM
Just a gentle nudge that this is rapidly dissolving into a GW pricing discussion, there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Well what are we meant to talk about when GW goes around shutting down our sources of news and rumours? ;)

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 05:08 AM
I try to use only the countries officially published figures or oecd data rather than peoples experainces so as to avoid any selection bias of peoples experiances, as generally, people have friends and live near people who are in the same socio-economic group, i.e. people in similiar employment status.

For instance if I did the survey of people living london oand the same in the north east (of England) the average salary difference is somewhere in the region of 7/8k, then narrow that down to towns/areas within those differences become even larger.

I know exactly what you're trying to say. as an anthropologist I understand these schematics all too well :P
Still, the sad fact remains that when you look at the standard "grey bloke" while pulling out all the high paid CEO's / managers etc. in every time GW bumps the price here, more and more people leave the hobby. Especially if you consider that GW is doing something strange in my country:
after many years they have decided to open a hobby center ( 1.. ONE... even tho we have more independent stockists than most similar sized countries)... most of the gamers (for at least a decade) have been highschool kids / students (guess how high their income is ) and at the same time they are raising prices... so where's the sense of expanding the market in a coutry where you're killing your own business by increasing the prie tags above the reach of the main target group?

pauljc
04-30-2013, 05:14 AM
I don't know why this is so hard for so many people.

1. GW are not the Devil. Seriously, can we just get this one.
2. Every publication has a copyright notice at the bottom that tells you it is forbidden to reprint or repost parts or wholes of the publication unless given express permission. This goes for My Little Pony colouring books too. And I'm pretty sure Hasbro sends out DMCA's to offending websites.
3. GW is not the Evil Mega-Corp so many of you so desparately want it to be.
4. Posting photographs or pages of Codices, FW books, or WDs is simply not allowed. It's not p*ssing on your audience, it's basic copyright protection.
5. People keep whining, but they keep on buying.

I hear so many people whining that GW need to get with the times. But they have gotten with the times. Wargaming is not a niche anymore. It is a multi-million pound industry. And that requires - as much as you hate it - strict IP protection.

It's not GW who needs to get with the times, it's 'you' - the crusty old gamer that still thinks we should be sittingin dark corners slapping Humbrol oil paint on naff-looking tin soldiers.

And yeah, as has been said, if I created something cool, which was posted online before I was ready to show off, I would be damn annoyed as well, and would seek retribution.

Posting WD pictures is not free advertising for GW. It is stripping away their own abilities to market their product. THEY control the marketing for their products, not YOU.

Grow up, get with the times, have a little respect for basic laws, and take some damn responsibility for what amounts basically to re-printing copyrighted media. It's not cool.

Also, GW is not the Devil you want it to be.

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 05:18 AM
They're not the Evil Mega-Corp we want, they're the Evil Mega-Corp we deserve?

Tzeentch's Dark Agent
04-30-2013, 05:20 AM
I don't know why this is so hard for so many people.

1. GW are not the Devil. Seriously, can we just get this one.
2. Every publication has a copyright notice at the bottom that tells you it is forbidden to reprint or repost parts or wholes of the publication unless given express permission. This goes for My Little Pony colouring books too. And I'm pretty sure Hasbro sends out DMCA's to offending websites.
3. GW is not the Evil Mega-Corp so many of you so desparately want it to be.
4. Posting photographs or pages of Codices, FW books, or WDs is simply not allowed. It's not p*ssing on your audience, it's basic copyright protection.
5. People keep whining, but they keep on buying.

I hear so many people whining that GW need to get with the times. But they have gotten with the times. Wargaming is not a niche anymore. It is a multi-million pound industry. And that requires - as much as you hate it - strict IP protection.

It's not GW who needs to get with the times, it's 'you' - the crusty old gamer that still thinks we should be sittingin dark corners slapping Humbrol oil paint on naff-looking tin soldiers.

And yeah, as has been said, if I created something cool, which was posted online before I was ready to show off, I would be damn annoyed as well, and would seek retribution.

Posting WD pictures is not free advertising for GW. It is stripping away their own abilities to market their product. THEY control the marketing for their products, not YOU.

Grow up, get with the times, have a little respect for basic laws, and take some damn responsibility for what amounts basically to re-printing copyrighted media. It's not cool.

Also, GW is not the Devil you want it to be.

Amen to this guy.

Herald of Nurgle
04-30-2013, 05:31 AM
Ohhh this is troubling... Faeit was my only link newswise to the hobby anymore... and with Tabletop Fix taking preemptive measures, that's even MORE worrying. Seems like a massive shot in the foot by GW so far.

eldargal
04-30-2013, 05:34 AM
Well what are we meant to talk about when GW goes around shutting down our sources of news and rumours? ;)
Breasts?

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 05:36 AM
Breasts?

sounds good to me, PMs are best though, don't want the boys involved :p

eldargal
04-30-2013, 05:37 AM
Good point.

Magpie
04-30-2013, 05:38 AM
Amen to this guy.

+1

Magpie
04-30-2013, 05:41 AM
sounds good to me, PMs are best though, don't want the boys involved :p

Most probably wouldn't have all that much new to say about them anyway I'm guessing.

Mr Mystery
04-30-2013, 05:41 AM
Ohhh this is troubling... Faeit was my only link newswise to the hobby anymore... and with Tabletop Fix taking preemptive measures, that's even MORE worrying. Seems like a massive shot in the foot by GW so far.

Not really no. GW's property, their right to defend it.

I wonder how many staff members have been sacked for leaking info? I bloody nearly was... and yup, my own stupid fault, on account of having been told 'leaking' stuff to the Interwebs is a sackable offence. But hey ho, worked out well for me.

Alvarius
04-30-2013, 05:42 AM
Breasts?
YES!!! :D

sounds good to me, PMs are best though, don't want the boys involved :p
DAMN.... =_=''''

that's just damn sexist... TT^TT

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 05:43 AM
Breasts?


sounds good to me, PMs are best though, don't want the boys involved :p

I can dig it :cool:

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 05:46 AM
YES!!! :D

DAMN.... =_=''''

that's just damn sexist... TT^TT

yes it is


I can dig it :cool:

excellent

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 05:46 AM
Breasts?


sounds good to me, PMs are best though, don't want the boys involved :p


Good point.

:p

Herald of Nurgle
04-30-2013, 05:50 AM
This is all very true, but i'm lamenting the loss of the hobby material more than anything. I'm perfectly fine with GW defending their IP etc, especially against those dumb enough to still be poking the trigger happy giant in the eye and expecting to get away with it. Still quite worried with Faeit though. BoLS at least seemed to have enough clout or something in the blog community to outlast this sort of thing - self sufficient just from the forum, even before the blog itself. Faeit's quite diddy by comparison. :(<br>Btw - christ its been a long time since I posted here... I've forgotten how to make new paragraphs!

Mr Mystery
04-30-2013, 05:55 AM
Meh. Brought it on themselves I'm afraid.

To stretch a metaphor (and to be fair to Faiet, I've not seen him playing the martyr anywhere) it's akin being expected to give sympathy to say a white supremacist who has just walked into the Black Panthers all-in wrestling competition, and hurled abuse. There was only one way it was going to end, and that's being splatted. Now, bear in mind, I did say I was stretching the metaphor (for comic affect).

GW feel it's beneficial to restrict rumourage. Nobody here has the numbers they do, and as such, idle speculation is idle.

It's also akin to claiming they are only losing gamers. Prove it. There is anecdotal evidence at best. Yes, sales volumes are down. Significantly down? Dunno. Not seen the data. Does that data take into account other changes, like previously '5 to a box' metal/finecast going to '10 to a box' plastic? Dunno. I've not seen it. And ultimately, nor has anyone else.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:00 AM
The 3D renders of products on Kickstarter aren't the same as a company making actual models and selling them around the world, PP is their biggest competitor and they're still making mixed plastic and metal kits, which shows how far behind they are in the technology.

I'd say Wyrd is doing pretty well with their 3D renders and high quality plastics.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 06:03 AM
sounds good to me, PMs are best though, don't want the boys involved :p

Good job I am a man not a boy.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 06:07 AM
This goes for My Little Pony colouring books too. And I'm pretty sure Hasbro sends out DMCA's to offending websites.


There's MLP colouring books? Why are we still discussing GW. Where can I get these magical things?

Arkhan Land
04-30-2013, 06:10 AM
I read the Prometheus script while it was in production and it didn't stop me from going to see it in theaters.
I read the most recent Batman script while it was in production and I didn't stop me from seeing it eventually at home from a torrent...

leak info on a product can go both ways, considering the smaller market and greater cost of GW products I understand their viewpoint, but...

BOLS is a site that has done a great deal for maintaining interest in an analog game still chugging in a digital age, and I think GW owes it some money

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 06:12 AM
There's MLP colouring books? Why are we still discussing GW. Where can I get these magical things?

http://www.hasbro.com/mylittlepony/en_US/play/browse.cfm


Wolfie, it's "the boys", not boys ;)



Not surprised Faeit got taken down, he's been posting huge slabs of rules and scans lately, you could probably piece together the High Elf army book to a playable standard with the info up there recently.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 06:16 AM
http://www.hasbro.com/mylittlepony/en_US/play/browse.cfm



OMG!
I need some crayons...

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:17 AM
Grow up, get with the times, have a little respect for basic laws...

Also, GW is not the Devil you want it to be.

Basic laws like Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use)? It is news that GW is releasing a new item. News is covered under Fair Use in the US (and other similar laws worldwide). Now I'm sure some of Faeit's posts go beyond fair use, but most don't.

And GW is not the devil, they are a company, not some anthropomorphic thing. They just are there to make a profit. But that doesn't mean that they are all good and righteous either. They have repeatedly been shown to go beyond "IP protection" to the realm of copyright bullying (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/trademark-bully-thwarted-spots-space-marine-back-online).

Is GW abusing Google's implementation of DMCA notices that automatically remove content from the web? Probably, but they aren't the only ones. Google itself acknowledges that they get plenty of "inaccurate or unjustified" (http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/removals/copyright/faq/#compliance_reasons) take-down requests. It wasn't that long ago they created the DMCA counter-notification form so DMCA take-down recipients could respond.

GW knows that they can just pound away at the DMCA form and remove content. They also know that many of the small bloggers don't have resources to fight a Fair Use suit. Does it make GW the devil? No. Does it turn away a portion of their audience each time they do? Yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect).

Docmani
04-30-2013, 06:27 AM
GW definitely has the right to file a DMCA complaint with Google.

I would be more ticked off at Google for being so spineless.

These sites would be better off hosting off-shore and pay for the hosting with bitcoin. At least make GW work for it....

In any case, GW is definitely harshing my rumor-buzz.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 06:31 AM
Wolfie, it's "the boys", not boys ;)

It's discrimination and I sha'n't stand for it! Unless you agree that I don't count as "the boys".


Basic laws like Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use)? It is news that GW is releasing a new item. News is covered under Fair Use in the US (and other similar laws worldwide). Now I'm sure some of Faeit's posts go beyond fair use, but most don't.

USA & English & Welsh "fair use" law is startlingly different.
You can report something without showing it, for instance we can report that a French magazine has published photographs of the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge topless without showing those images.

As soon as you start reproducing any copyrighted material you have to be very careful that you do not overstep reporting the story and start reproducing the story.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:42 AM
It is kinda funny that we are all assuming this is a copyright/take-down when I don't think that has been definitively shown. (BoLS doesn't have any notices listed at chillingeffects.org, so taking down the site seems harsh for a first offender.)

@Wolfshade, True, but assuming it is copyright, blogspot.com is organized in the US and subject to their copyright laws, so English and Welsh laws don't come into play. And the mechanism most discussed is a DMCA take-down, which isn't an English or Welsh law.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 06:44 AM
True but under the Benre convention you can hold people accountable to your own law.
It is similiar to the way the GW & CHS case was held under English & Welsh law by an US judge in the US.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 06:48 AM
I'd say Wyrd is doing pretty well with their 3D renders and high quality plastics.

Thanks for cherry picking parts of what I wrote that you think you can counter.

Anyway, as I said, they don't have the infastructure to compete on any serious level. And their 3D renders look nothing like their plastics. Its ridiculous, they even show the renders on the box, and inside are plastic lumps that looking rubbish in comparison, no company out there can make plastic kits that even begin to compare with GW.

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 06:50 AM
It is kinda funny that we are all assuming this is a copyright/take-down when I don't think that has been definitively shown. (BoLS doesn't have any notices listed at chillingeffects.org, so taking down the site seems harsh for a first offender.)



DMCA takedown issued by GW to Google (http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=928410) about Faeit.



1. Complainant's Information
Name:
Company name: Games Workshop Limited
Full legal name of the copyright holder: Games Workshop Limited
Country of residence: GB

2. Your copyrighted work
Location of copyrighted work (where your authorized work is located):

The copyrighted work is the contents of the
unreleased 'White Dwarf' magazine (ISSN: 0265-8712) produced by Games
Workshop Limited and due for release on 27th April 2013.

Description of the copyrighted work:

The magazine content and images are
protected by copyright and Games Workshop Limited does not give permission
for it to be displayed on the Faeit212 Blog. The blog is displaying
photographic copies of the pages of the magazine. The 19 photos of magazine
pages in the body of the blog post infringe.


I believe BoLS current stance is technical issues, as last thing stated was there has been no communications - DMCA or otherwise - about the outage.

Docmani
04-30-2013, 06:50 AM
It is kinda funny that we are all assuming this is a copyright/take-down when I don't think that has been definitively shown.


Its been over 12 hours. Other Blogger sites are working. If it quacks like a duck.....

Battle Brother Cain
04-30-2013, 06:51 AM
At the end of the day, GW is a business, if you can't afford GW games, thats not their problem and they have no requirement to cater to you. They do let sites make resin bits, why would they mind that, if someone sells resin helmets for space marines, they have to buy some space marines to put them on, what they do mind, and what chapter house studios did, was delibertly infringe on what GW saw as its IP, by copying their army insignia and style and also by using the trademarked names of their units.


I love this bit... If you really knew what you were talking about, paragraphs like this would not reach the page. If the Chapterhouse controversy were cut and dry, it would not still be in court after 2 years. GW periodically throws its weight around and bad things happen. Look at the Space Marine controversy. GW does have rights, the problem is that they seem to not want to deal with real problems when protecting their rights. Naftka is a small blog with a decent following. He did not take those pics; he just posted them.

If GW was really interested in protecting their IP, they would look at the printers and figure out who is snapping unreleased book pics. Or maybe not release a book in a different country a week before the rest of the world. This is just a bullying tactic, much like the Chapterhouse case was when it was started. The difference there is GW thought they wouldn't get a fight, and boy were they wrong. This WILL come back to bite them. Tactics like this does nothing to garner support, and since the ONLY marketing GW has is through their WD magazine AND word of mouth, its is a stupid marketing decision to remove the word of mouth sources that generate more word of mouth.

I can honestly say that I have not been able to introduce one new player to the game, that has played longer than a couple months, in the past couple years. Between the expense of the models, lackluster rulesets, and a genuine disgust with the endless parade of attacks on both private and commercial interests, I just cannot push their product anymore. The game just isn't fun anymore.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:52 AM
True but under the Benre convention you can hold people accountable to your own law.
It is similiar to the way the GW & CHS case was held under English & Welsh law by an US judge in the US.

In a courtroom, yes, but GW using another county's law to file a DMCA request? Last I checked, you can't mix and match laws; DMCA specifies what it can be used for and I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "according to the laws in any country". :)

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

Why anyone would still be on blogger is amazing to me.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 06:53 AM
I love this bit... If you really knew what you were talking about, paragraphs like this would not reach the page. If the Chapterhouse controversy were cut and dry, it would not still be in court after 2 years. GW periodically throws its weight around and bad things happen. Look at the Space Marine controversy. GW does have rights, the problem is that they seem to not want to deal with real problems when protecting their rights. Naftka is a small blog with a decent following. He did not take those pics; he just posted them.

If GW was really interested in protecting their IP, they would look at the printers and figure out who is snapping unreleased book pics. Or maybe not release a book in a different country a week before the rest of the world. This is just a bullying tactic, much like the Chapterhouse case was when it was started. The difference there is GW thought they wouldn't get a fight, and boy were they wrong. This WILL come back to bite them. Tactics like this does nothing to garner support, and since the ONLY marketing GW has is through their WD magazine AND word of mouth, its is a stupid marketing decision to remove the word of mouth sources that generate more word of mouth.

I can honestly say that I have not been able to introduce one new player to the game, that has played longer than a couple months, in the past couple years. Between the expense of the models, lackluster rulesets, and a genuine disgust with the endless parade of attacks on both private and commercial interests, I just cannot push their product anymore. The game just isn't fun anymore.

Bye then

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:54 AM
Its been over 12 hours. Other Blogger sites are working. If it quacks like a duck.....

Normally DMCA take downs are only specific posts and Google notifies the owner. This doesn't fit the patterns of existing DMCA take-downs, so maybe it is a different kind of duck or maybe it is a crow. (I've always thought they kinda sound like ducks.)

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:55 AM
Bye then

Funny that BBCain created a new account just to post that, eh?

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 06:56 AM
Normally DMCA take downs are only specific posts and Google notifies the owner. This doesn't fit the patterns of existing DMCA take-downs, so maybe it is a different kind of duck or maybe it is a crow. (I've always thought they kinda sound like ducks.)

The DMCA take down that GW filed was for the specific post, GW haven't done anything to close down the blog, Google may have in the face of repeated DMCA requests every time he posts up scans of White Dwarf

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 06:56 AM
The CH is blatant infringement, it's dragged out this long due to lawyers incompetence and geography.

The other stuff is heavy handed on GW parts and again incompetence, like you say if they're that concerned they should be plugging the leaks at source.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:57 AM
DMCA takedown issued by GW to Google (http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=928410) about Faeit.

This happens a lot. Google/Blogger takes the page in question to Draft status.

What doesn't usually happen is that the whole site disappears.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 06:58 AM
The CH is blatant infringement...

Tell me more about your law degree and expertise in international copyright law. :rolleyes:

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 07:00 AM
The CH is blatant infringement, it's dragged out this long due to lawyers incompetence and geography.

The other stuff is heavy handed on GW parts and again incompetence, like you say if they're that concerned they should be plugging the leaks at source.

No no, everything GW does is evil!

You can legally just take the name of someones product and use it to sell yours without asking them, its fine, and you can copy what their models look like, and its style and if they've drawn some pictures of that a model would look like, you're fine to just use that and make and sell your own model of it.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 07:01 AM
In a courtroom, yes, but GW using another county's law to file a DMCA request? Last I checked, you can't mix and match laws; DMCA specifies what it can be used for and I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "according to the laws in any country". :)

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

Why anyone would still be on blogger is amazing to me.

We all know Google's taken down procedure is a bit skewy, like wiping several YouTube channels, or other occassions where it has been over zealous.

There is no mix and matching, the file is in accourdance with the US law. If that fails, then they can argue fair use using a favourable law system either US or E&W.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 07:02 AM
Tell me more about your law degree and expertise in international copyright law. :rolleyes:

Or his eyes

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 07:05 AM
This happens a lot. Google/Blogger takes the page in question to Draft status.

What doesn't usually happen is that the whole site disappears.


True, but it could be that Blogger has disabled his site due to repeated infractions violating ToS - they close YouTube channels for similar reasons and other (non-wargaming) blogs have also gone dodo for multiple breaches. To quote Blogger's ToS page:


We respond to notices of alleged copyright infringement and terminate accounts of repeat infringers according to the process set out in the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

magicstorm
04-30-2013, 07:05 AM
Quote for truth!


I don't know why this is so hard for so many people.

1. GW are not the Devil. Seriously, can we just get this one.
2. Every publication has a copyright notice at the bottom that tells you it is forbidden to reprint or repost parts or wholes of the publication unless given express permission. This goes for My Little Pony colouring books too. And I'm pretty sure Hasbro sends out DMCA's to offending websites.
3. GW is not the Evil Mega-Corp so many of you so desparately want it to be.
4. Posting photographs or pages of Codices, FW books, or WDs is simply not allowed. It's not p*ssing on your audience, it's basic copyright protection.
5. People keep whining, but they keep on buying.

I hear so many people whining that GW need to get with the times. But they have gotten with the times. Wargaming is not a niche anymore. It is a multi-million pound industry. And that requires - as much as you hate it - strict IP protection.

It's not GW who needs to get with the times, it's 'you' - the crusty old gamer that still thinks we should be sittingin dark corners slapping Humbrol oil paint on naff-looking tin soldiers.

And yeah, as has been said, if I created something cool, which was posted online before I was ready to show off, I would be damn annoyed as well, and would seek retribution.

Posting WD pictures is not free advertising for GW. It is stripping away their own abilities to market their product. THEY control the marketing for their products, not YOU.

Grow up, get with the times, have a little respect for basic laws, and take some damn responsibility for what amounts basically to re-printing copyrighted media. It's not cool.

Also, GW is not the Devil you want it to be.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 07:08 AM
Hating GW makes you cool, because its cool to go against the mainstream, even when the mainstream is pretty small and niche itself.

shakespear
04-30-2013, 07:08 AM
I love this bit... If you really knew what you were talking about, paragraphs like this would not reach the page. If the Chapterhouse controversy were cut and dry, it would not still be in court after 2 years. GW periodically throws its weight around and bad things happen. Look at the Space Marine controversy. GW does have rights, the problem is that they seem to not want to deal with real problems when protecting their rights. Naftka is a small blog with a decent following. He did not take those pics; he just posted them.

If GW was really interested in protecting their IP, they would look at the printers and figure out who is snapping unreleased book pics. Or maybe not release a book in a different country a week before the rest of the world. This is just a bullying tactic, much like the Chapterhouse case was when it was started. The difference there is GW thought they wouldn't get a fight, and boy were they wrong. This WILL come back to bite them. Tactics like this does nothing to garner support, and since the ONLY marketing GW has is through their WD magazine AND word of mouth, its is a stupid marketing decision to remove the word of mouth sources that generate more word of mouth.

I can honestly say that I have not been able to introduce one new player to the game, that has played longer than a couple months, in the past couple years. Between the expense of the models, lackluster rulesets, and a genuine disgust with the endless parade of attacks on both private and commercial interests, I just cannot push their product anymore. The game just isn't fun anymore.


its just control, thats all. They want to control every single aspect of their game/company. Thats why I fully expect them to be mail order only in less than 5 years.

We find it so strange because for the most part, other companies dont act like this. Why would you want to restrict online sales? or make it difficult for stores to carry your product? Can you imagine if apple "defended its IP" in the same way?

I cant believe this doesnt hurt profits. (notice I didnt say sales) People quit over this stuff and I cant imagine who has the money to buy into GW stuff nowadays. It cant be kids.

I agree with you Cain, I havent seen more than 2 40k players in a long time. People have shifted to other games and find the experience cheaper and more enjoyable.

The GW apologists though, are getting as bad as EA apologists....

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:08 AM
True, but it could be that Blogger has disabled his site due to repeated infractions violating ToS

Ok, that could explain naftka.blogspot.co.uk, but what about BoLS? BoLS isn't a repeat DMCA take-down recipient.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 07:09 AM
Tell me more about your law degree and expertise in international copyright law. :rolleyes:

It's blatantly obvious. If you look and see it's a copy isn't that how it's applied?

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:10 AM
The GW apologists though, are getting as bad as EA apologists....

Another account created just to post this.

Herald of Nurgle
04-30-2013, 07:13 AM
An account created just to post this.
FTFY. BBCain did at least create the account in <2010>

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 07:14 AM
its just control, thats all. They want to control every single aspect of their game/company. Thats why I fully expect them to be mail order only in less than 5 years.

We find it so strange because for the most part, other companies dont act like this. Why would you want to restrict online sales? or make it difficult for stores to carry your product? Can you imagine if apple "defended its IP" in the same way?

I cant believe this doesnt hurt profits. (notice I didnt say sales) People quit over this stuff and I cant imagine who has the money to buy into GW stuff nowadays. It cant be kids.

I agree with you Cain, I havent seen more than 2 40k players in a long time. People have shifted to other games and find the experience cheaper and more enjoyable.

The GW apologists though, are getting as bad as EA apologists....

What are these games that are cheaper than GW games? can you let me know so I can join in? Because all the other games I've seen are around about the same price for what you get,

Kids can't afford GW games, kids could never afford GW games, kids can't afford much, they don't tend to have money, parents though, parents will pay out the nose to make their kids happy. thats who they sell to.

Also, you obviously don't know about Apple and its IP protection or you wouldn't even begin to compare it to GW, they're not even in the same league. Apple sued people for using the word Pod. for using the letter i, for making square phones with no buttons. Its laughable to compare asking someone to take down scans of a magazine your publish and try to sell that were posted before the magazine was released and this.

Battle Brother Cain
04-30-2013, 07:16 AM
Funny that BBCain created a new account just to post that, eh?
Funny how you are unable to see that Ive had my account since 2010, and just choose not to post on this ****ty site. I only chose to post now because of the content of this thread.

Oh, and OrksOrksOrks dismissal of my argument just justifies my position. He truly doesn't know what he's talking about half the time.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:17 AM
isn't that how it's applied?

Obviously not, since ChapterHouse is still selling them after the court case.

It is allowed to create compatible parts. Like if the hard drive fails on your iMac, you don't have to buy a new hard drive from Apple. Or if you wreck the bumper on your auto, buy a new one from many sources. Even a "compatible" one with new and stylistic differences. Same for shoulder pads compatible with GW Space Marines.

Ragnar Black
04-30-2013, 07:17 AM
Hmm, it is interesting the way of law. I am not against that. But I also wouldn't survive without that pictures out before the GW did. I think it was just a plus for the players which may look on the models before they arrived. We have at home almost all WD, which came out. The sad part is that from WD becomes something like propagation material for new releases. With the most terrific painting tips ever.

Maybe you stone me. But it is sad that they try to stop good mod projects and things like that just to protect something. I always thought that WARHAMMER was mainly for fans. And yes I am hard core fan. But this is sad. The whole new policy of GW is shame.

It was kind a same thing when in my country we was doing fan translation of Harry Potter final book, because we cannot wait for official book in CZ. Was that against the law? Yes it was but anyway all of us buy the book after that...The point is that one day theirs actions destroy an legacy..

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:18 AM
Funny how you are unable to see that Ive had my account since 2010, and just choose not to post on this ****ty site.

Touché.

I claim laziness? Short-term blindness? Mental incapacity?

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 07:19 AM
We find it so strange because for the most part, other companies dont act like this. Why would you want to restrict online sales? or make it difficult for stores to carry your product? Can you imagine if apple "defended its IP" in the same way?


The GW apologists though, are getting as bad as EA apologists....

Apple does defend it's IP in a similar manner, the same as samsung and google do in the tablet/phone wars.

No one is bad as anyone defending simcity...

Gotthammer
04-30-2013, 07:19 AM
@ RealG - as our glorious overlord Bigred stated on the front page of this thread: "We are still proceeding under the impression that we are dealing with an internal Google IT issue. We have received no takedown requests, or any emails from any parties regarding any IP related issues."

So no idea! Could be that BolS got hit due to Naftka's weekly roundup? But that's pure speculation on my part.


Another conspiracy theory is all this IP tightening is the company getting ready for sale. They're dropping the non-plastic & non-finecast lines (http://epicaddiction.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/the-death-of-specialist-games/) (ie Specialist Games) entirely, and clamping down hard on anything that might make a buyer wary - potential IP problems in the future, content control etc. Shaving the fat and cutting off corporate infections as it were to look fresh and healthy for market.
Well, that's the theory at least, take with plenty of salt.

Lars Von Panzerbjørn
04-30-2013, 07:21 AM
Kids can't afford GW games, kids could never afford GW games, kids can't afford much, they don't tend to have money, parents though, parents will pay out the nose to make their kids happy. thats who they sell to.

When I was 15 I bought all my GW models for my own money that I earned by having a newspaper route after school.
Just because *you* can't/couldn't afford it, don't think it's the same for everyone.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 07:21 AM
Obviously not, since ChapterHouse is still selling them after the court case.

It is allowed to create compatible parts. Like if the hard drive fails on your iMac, you don't have to buy a new hard drive from Apple. Or if you wreck the bumper on your auto, buy a new one from many sources. Even a "compatible" one with new and stylistic differences. Same for shoulder pads compatible with GW Space Marines.

That's a false analogy, those are parts that add function to the object. The model is the object it's self. Totally different concept. In fact apple don't even make hdd, they use off the shelf 3rd party components.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 07:24 AM
When I was 15 I bought all my GW models for my own money that I earned by having a newspaper route after school.
Just because *you* can't/couldn't afford it, don't think it's the same for everyone.

I am talking generalisations because thats what Games Workshop bases its business model on, get kids hooked, get their parents to pay for it, its what they go for

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 07:26 AM
Funny how you are unable to see that Ive had my account since 2010, and just choose not to post on this ****ty site. I only chose to post now because of the content of this thread.

Oh, and OrksOrksOrks dismissal of my argument just justifies my position. He truly doesn't know what he's talking about half the time.

You didn't have an arument, you were just whining about Games Workshop in general, if you don't like the game or the company, why do you care?

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:29 AM
Another conspiracy theory is all this IP tightening is the company getting ready for sale.

I've heard this a lot lately, a lot since Adepticon (Funny that each claims "you heard it here first"). An interesting twist would be, if I were a big company like Hasbro buying GW, wouldn't you want to also gobble up the big web presences related to that purchase? First, they'd be available for relatively cheap (compared to GW) and second you'd basically have big control of the blogosphere for your new company.

<tin foil hat mode>Maybe Faeit and BoLS are being bought be the big company buying GW and they are down while they transition to the new owners?</tin foil hat off>

Another conspiracy theory I heard at Adepticon was in regard to the outgoing GW CEO. His shared only vest after a certain time after his departure. So running up to his departure he shut down all the new releases. Now that he's gone, the release pipeline is chock full of new products, creating massive releases that drive up profits and sales, raising the stock price right at the time the old CEO can cash out his shared for maximum profit.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:30 AM
That's a false analogy

The courts obviously disagree.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 07:36 AM
Well no or the case would have been thrown out.

eldargal
04-30-2013, 07:39 AM
The 'GW is preparing for imminent sale' theory has been popping up frequently ever since the big revenue drop in 2005/6. I guess the principle is if you say it often enough one day it might be true.:rolleyes:

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 07:41 AM
The 'GW is preparing for imminent sale' theory has been popping up frequently ever since the big revenue drop in 2005/6. I guess the principle is if you say it often enough one day it might be true.:rolleyes:

There is going to be a plastic land train for the Squats...

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:45 AM
There is going to be a plastic land train for the Squats...

Nooooooooooo! Will no one think of the Squat Clock?! :)

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 07:47 AM
Quote for truth!

This post is literally full of fail.

If you want to talk to someone who actually knows what they're talking about Sean_OBrian on dakka actually has laid out exactly why GW's legal has gone outside the box and might be liable to be sued by the sites that were taken down.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/524002.page#5560736


No, not an image - the entire work. The leaked images might be a violation of an internal employment contract between the employee who manages to get the pre-release image and the company who owns the image...but that is not a violation on its own. The issue with it being a specific crime under Section 506 only if it is 1) Software/AV Works or 2) A Movie - and then only if it is a complete release, not a limited excerpt for purposes of review, new or criticism. That particular section is very limited in scope and relates to the criminal activity of releasing bootlegged videos (from prescreenings) and late Beta test software or other AV work:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506

(3) Definition. — In this subsection, the term “work being prepared for commercial distribution” means —

(A) a computer program, a musical work, a motion picture or other audiovisual work, or a sound recording, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution —

(i) the copyright owner has a reasonable expectation of commercial distribution; and

(ii) the copies or phonorecords of the work have not been commercially distributed; or

(B) a motion picture, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution, the motion picture —

(i) has been made available for viewing in a motion picture exhibition facility; and

(ii) has not been made available in copies for sale to the general public in the United States in a format intended to permit viewing outside a motion picture exhibition facility.

There is no inclusion for literary works - which is what books and magazines fall under. Regarding the Eldar Scrolls issue...lots of huffery goes into DMCA requests, and lots of sites will roll over on them as they either don't know the law or don't want to fight the fight. Just because something is taken down and people broadly comply - it doesn't actually mean that there are any grounds to do so.



See above, and further below...

In journalism, "journalists" receive broad protections under the law. If a journalist uses a leaked image they are not required to abide by laws and contracts which a company might implement in order to keep things confidential (See Johns-Byrne Co. v. TechnoBuffalo). It is quite common to have various prerelease leaks of all manner of products - from cars, to phones and even software and videos. These are all protected aspects of journalistic reporting. If they were posting a complete video or copy of software...or even somehow posting a 3D scan of a model - there might be some aspect with which GW could grasp at. However, the early posting of images from a magazine which is largely a product catalog does not amount to damaging to the product that GW is attempting to sell and is protected.

The illegal use by GW goes to this point here...quoted from their DMCA take-down request:

Sworn Statements
I have a good faith belief that use of the copyrighted materials described above as allegedly infringing is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. [checked]

I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. [checked]


Because of the nature of the DMCA, attorneys and companies who use it are expected to make a sworn statement that what they are targeting is in fact illegal - they also must sign the document under penalty of perjury that they have done their due diligence in ensuring that the law is actually being broken. The above quoted statutes (both the FAIR Act and the refutement of the pre-release issue) should make it clear that Nafka is a news site performing a news function - which is legal. Because it is authorized by law explicitly and does not infringe on any exclusive rights of GW...it would in fact be an illegal use of the DMCA. Either GW's legal team is not doing their due diligence in research or they are but are perjuring themselves - both of which are illegal uses.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 07:47 AM
There is going to be a plastic land train for the Squats...

Really?
I've waited ages for that.

scadugenga
04-30-2013, 07:53 AM
What are these games that are cheaper than GW games? can you let me know so I can join in? Because all the other games I've seen are around about the same price for what you get,

Kids can't afford GW games, kids could never afford GW games, kids can't afford much, they don't tend to have money, parents though, parents will pay out the nose to make their kids happy. thats who they sell to.

Also, you obviously don't know about Apple and its IP protection or you wouldn't even begin to compare it to GW, they're not even in the same league. Apple sued people for using the word Pod. for using the letter i, for making square phones with no buttons. Its laughable to compare asking someone to take down scans of a magazine your publish and try to sell that were posted before the magazine was released and this.

Really?

I was a kid in tyre 80's. I afforded 40k just fine. As a broke college student in the 90's I was still able to afford it.

As a well paid professional now with kids a mortgage the pricing is beyond ridiculous.

Darkseer
04-30-2013, 07:54 AM
This post is literally full of fail.

If you want to talk to someone who actually knows what they're talking about Sean_OBrian on dakka actually has laid out exactly why GW's legal has gone outside the box and might be liable to be sued by the sites that were taken down.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/524002.page#5560736

One of the blogspot T&Cs is that Google owns your blog, all of its content and can do whatever it wants with it.
The same goes for YouTube channels.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 07:58 AM
Well no or the case would have been thrown out.

I just checked the thread on Dakka and the court just set a date for the start of the trial (June 3rd for jury selection). And May 7th is the deadline for the status report on the deadline of specifying infringing products.

So things are quickly coming to a head; it seems like we should either have a jury result or settlement by the end of June.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 08:00 AM
Really?
I've waited ages for that.

I remember playing Epic with the small-scale Land Train. A big, plastic one would be awesome.

mathhammer
04-30-2013, 08:02 AM
so table top fix (http://ttfix.blogspot.com/) has dumped it's GW coverage.

I wonder if more mixed company blogs/forums will decide to dump GW coverage because of their actions?

http://ttfix.blogspot.com/2013/04/public-service-announcement_30.html

Public Service Announcement
As a precaution I pulled all articles dealing with GW, Forgeworld, Warhammer Forge, WH40K and WHFB from the blog.

I will no longer feature any news directly related to GW or Forgeworld on TTFix for the forseeable future.
Posted by Tabletop Fix at 3:08 AM

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 08:02 AM
I just checked the thread on Dakka and the court just set a date for the start of the trial (June 3rd for jury selection). And May 7th is the deadline for the status report on the deadline of specifying infringing products.

So things are quickly coming to a head; it seems like we should either have a jury result or settlement by the end of June.

Woohoo then we can argue over the result.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 08:03 AM
Really?

I was a kid in tyre 80's. I afforded 40k just fine. As a broke college student in the 90's I was still able to afford it.

As a well paid professional now with kids a mortgage the pricing is beyond ridiculous.

So now that you have no disposible income because you have kids and a mortgage, the price is ridiculous? I'm shocked. All your money goes on your family, when you're a kid or a student, all your money goes on you, so you can indulge your hobbies, thats what GW wants

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 08:03 AM
One of the blogspot T&Cs is that Google owns your blog, all of its content and can do whatever it wants with it.
The same goes for YouTube channels.

No, Google owns your blog and your YouTube channel, but you own (retain intellectual property rights of) all the content. See "Your Content in our Services" at http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/terms/

However, Google does not need to make your content available on their services. But they don't own your content-- the author does.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 08:04 AM
Woohoo then we can argue over the result.

But then will there be anything to argue? :)

Of course, fingers crossed for an appeal, right?

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 08:09 AM
of course, jury bias towards an american company, the correctness of the result, if jurys work, or know what they're doing.
I'm pretty sure most of the arguments will be the same, except the first.

RealGenius
04-30-2013, 08:13 AM
I see you're getting a head start!


of course, jury bias towards an american company

That's GW's own fault for suing in the US.


the correctness of the result

Doesn't matter if the result is correct or not (only the legally binding result matters).


if jurys work

Juries don't work for cases like this, no real argument there.


or know what they're doing.

Juries don't know what they are doing most of the time because they aren't knowledgable in IP laws. I'd prefer a judge or expert panel.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 08:29 AM
lmao.

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 08:34 AM
One of the blogspot T&Cs is that Google owns your blog, all of its content and can do whatever it wants with it.
The same goes for YouTube channels.

Note the part in that post where most hosts will just not bother looking into whether or not its a valid request before doing the take down. Reference the whole Amazon Space Marine thing (which I'm sure that the endless GW crusaders around here are still defending GW for) where Amazon pulled the "offending" book before actually looking into the nature of the request and whether it was valid or not.

In this case Google clearly has an automated process for dealing with this and I really doubt a human ever read the DMCA complaint before action was taken on Natfka's blog.

After the initial takedown request has been processed, the "offender" has the opportunity to challenge the request, and if they do, GW has I believe 2 weeks to file an official lawsuit otherwise the content is made available again.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 08:35 AM
@Psycho: So if GW loses the case, it was just because of American bias? :)

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 08:36 AM
@Psycho: So if GW loses the case, it was just because of American bias? :)

GW can't ever be wrong. Remember that if GW's upper management went around and started pimp slapping babies' faces along the street, there is *justification* for their ways.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 08:37 AM
Clearly, a small US company been sued by a British multinational? GW don't stand a chance with a Jury, it could only be worse if they held it in Boston...

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 08:38 AM
gw can't ever be wrong. Remember that if gw's upper management went around and started pimp slapping babies' faces along the street, there is *justification* for their ways.

rotfl

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 08:39 AM
GW can't ever be wrong. Remember that if GW's upper management went around and started pimp slapping babies' faces along the street, there is *justification* for their ways.

If you'd notice I criticise them where I think they're wrong. (Babies had it coming always crying)
When it comes to CH I don't think they are...
The website takedown in this instance they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 08:42 AM
Clearly, a small US company been sued by a British multinational? GW don't stand a chance with a Jury, it could only be worse if they held it in Boston...

I think you give the average American way too much credit for brand identity. Remember, our people don't riot and destroy the town after a sporting event. Americans get jingoist in matters of war. The average American doesn't give a rat's patootie when it comes to business. We are used to (and like) getting our crud from all over the world at cheap prices, so much so that we let a ton of our own industries die (and there were court cases there too).

The outcome of the Chapterhouse case won't be due to Americans still channeling the war of Independence. To most Americans today the U.K. is just this quaint old Aunt who serves tea and bisquits and has a Monarch for tourism purposes. I'm not saying that to be rude. It is just a fact. We don't see you the way you imply.

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 08:44 AM
Clearly, a small US company been sued by a British multinational? GW don't stand a chance with a Jury, it could only be worse if they held it in Boston...

Contrary to the popular perception of us yanks - we actually *like* our mistaken forefathers or "the old country".

Boston at the moment, sadly has a much more focused target of visceral hatred and loathing that isn't due to something that happened 243 years ago.

Psychosplodge
04-30-2013, 08:49 AM
I think you give the average American way too much credit for brand identity. Remember, our people don't riot and destroy the town after a sporting event. Americans get jingoist in matters of war. The average American doesn't give a rat's patootie when it comes to business. We are used to (and like) getting our crud from all over the world at cheap prices, so much so that we let a ton of our own industries die (and there were court cases there too).

The outcome of the Chapterhouse case won't be due to Americans still channeling the war of Independence. To most Americans today the U.K. is just this quaint old Aunt who serves tea and bisquits and has a Monarch for tourism purposes. I'm not saying that to be rude. It is just a fact. We don't see you the way you imply.

lol those wacky Canadians.
I genuinely got the impression most americans are barely aware we exist ;)


Contrary to the popular perception of us yanks - we actually *like* our mistaken forefathers or "the old country".

Boston at the moment, sadly has a much more focused target of visceral hatred and loathing that isn't due to something that happened 243 years ago.

True kinda forgot about that.
And every American I've met in real life has been friendly.

bfmusashi
04-30-2013, 09:00 AM
Clearly, a small US company been sued by a British multinational? GW don't stand a chance with a Jury, it could only be worse if they held it in Boston...

Everything's worse in Boston.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 09:02 AM
Note the part in that post where most hosts will just not bother looking into whether or not its a valid request before doing the take down. Reference the whole Amazon Space Marine thing (which I'm sure that the endless GW crusaders around here are still defending GW for)


I don't think i saw anyone try and defend that, that was a supid mistake.

This isn't.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 09:07 AM
I don't think i saw anyone try and defend that, that was a supid mistake.

This isn't.

Actually, I could have sworn I recalled YOU defending it not so long ago. :) I'll have to go back through the posts and reread.

The Girl
04-30-2013, 09:08 AM
I believe BoLS current stance is technical issues, as last thing stated was there has been no communications - DMCA or otherwise - about the outage.

This is accurate as of this posting.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 09:12 AM
Actually, I could have sworn I recalled YOU defending it not so long ago. :) I'll have to go back through the posts and reread.

Be my guest, I've never defended the idea of GW wanting to sue over Spots the space marine, I may have said it was an error or mistake due to defending IPs, but never that it was right to sue or claim infrigement, obviously if you've enough spare time to go back over all my posts, feel free, but thats really sad and pathetic.

Cap'nSmurfs
04-30-2013, 09:17 AM
This thread so far has been a hilarious exercise in jumping to conclusions. Would anyone else like to see some actual, you know, evidence before talking about what's happening, or is rampant sepculation the order of the day.

Also: is this making people more aware of the horrific piece of legislation that is the DMCA? Because that's what I'd be annoyed about. Feel free to hate the player, so long as you make sure to hate the game, people.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 09:20 AM
Be my guest, I've never defended the idea of GW wanting to sue over Spots the space marine, I may have said it was an error or mistake due to defending IPs, but never that it was right to sue or claim infrigement, obviously if you've enough spare time to go back over all my posts, feel free, but thats really sad and pathetic.

It doesn't take much time. There is a search engine for it. I do stand corrected though, and I'm happy to eat crow on the issue. When the whole Spots the Space Marine thing came up you had gone kind of belligerent and were attacking some guy and accusing him of being a racist because of his name. Then you went uncharacteristically quiet for awhile. As a result, you were pretty much absent from the debate.

scadugenga
04-30-2013, 09:31 AM
So now that you have no disposible income becalook rational by comparisob.you have kids and a mortgage, the price is ridiculous? I'm shocked. All your money goes on your family, when you're a kid or a student, all your money goes on you, so you can indulge your hobbies, thats what GW wants

You really aren't very capable are you. ..

That's how you respond when you claimed kid can't afford the game?

Please stop posting. You make even the most vehement of the apologists look rational in comparison.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 09:33 AM
You really aren't very capable are you. ..

That's how you respond when you claimed kid can't afford the game?

Please stop posting. You make even the most vehement of the apologists look


You said you can't afford to buy things for yourself. Because you have kids, you buy the kids toys, if they were GW fans, that would include GW things.

Loken
04-30-2013, 09:58 AM
http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2013/04/larry-email-re-bell-of-lost-souls-site.html

Update with email from Larry Vela.

Alec

3962

bfmusashi
04-30-2013, 10:00 AM
I'm amused **** is in the filter.

OrksOrksOrks
04-30-2013, 10:09 AM
I'm amused **** is in the filter.

I wasn't saying **** I was saying ****

Bigred
04-30-2013, 10:09 AM
UPDATE:

Thanks for the concern and the kind words,

As you can tell, the BoLS frontpage is down and we are actively working the issue.

We are working this issue up the chain with Google via multiple channels and making plans to avoid any such service interruptions in the future. BoLS has not received any IP notices, DMCA alerts, or violations from anyone, so at this moment we are still treating this as an IT issue on Google's side, but it is looking mighty suspicious by the hour. I'll let you all connect the dots.

There is a possibility that BoLS temporarily got caught in the crossfire between GW and other 3rd party blogger sites - we shall see.

In the meantime, all your favorite writers, are submitting their columns as new threads on the Lounge and we will be getting out links to them via Facebook, Google+, etc... Your BoLS content isn't going anywhere and if you poke around you will find lots more.

We will be back fullly operational shortly - My first priority is ensuring that BoLS keeps on delivering the news on all the game systems we cover to the wargaming community and we will do so, come Hell or high water (or any other bad actors)...

We will be moving to a more robust and secure blogging platform in the weeks ahead. We simply cannot allow this type of potential danger from 3rd parties to endanger BoLS ever again.

For our fans and readers - we love delivering the news and opinion on our beloved hobby to you day in and day out, and have been for over 7 years. Please stand with us during these trying times and tell your friends. Blog about us, and enjoy the BoLS Lounge where your favorite authors will be publishing during this time of need, and we will be back shortly.

Best regards and my deepest thanks,

-Larry Vela

Loken
04-30-2013, 10:10 AM
http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/20...ouls-site.html

Update with email from Larry Vela.

Alec

Arkhan Land
04-30-2013, 10:38 AM
thank you Larry

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 11:31 AM
Guess I'm late to the party...

Just wanted to say that the only real problems I have with GW are some egregious errors in quality (finecast) not being commensurate with cost and their stubborn refusal to enter the 21st century proper.

I really can't blame them for not having an official public forum. Believe it or not there was a short window of time when they did have an official public internet forum, and like all niche fandoms it was filled with the utmost dregs of humanity, all mewling and spewing vitriol over anything and everything. Kind of like the World of Warcraft forums are today. You get very little out of maintaining an official forum, and honestly I think it was probably the right decision to kill that monstrosity in its infancy.

All that being said what I really want from GW is a bit more product transparency and more logical pricing in certain areas. What I mean by that is give us tentative release schedules, let us know when armies are being updated and what models are being released. I really don't see anything negative about that other than it gives you deadlines, which honestly GW could use a little of considering how long it tends to sit on certain projects. Public disclosure has a way of setting a fire under people's buns, and that's what you really want in your workforce regardless of the industry.

I'm not sure what percentage of their income is based on publications, but I'd wager that whatever it is, it is dwindling in the digital age. To me having information only available in hardcopy (or at hardcopy prices) is asinine in the modern age. I realize that they do have digital copies of all their books, but why do they charge the same prices as hardcopy? Anyone can see the disparity there. They should charge reasonable prices for digital downloads, then I can assure you that sales would skyrocket and since the infrastructure cost of dispensing digital product is nearly 0 (its not 0, but its certainly very cheap) its very nearly all profit. If you reduced the prices of digital codices to, say 10 bucks a pop, I'd have purchased all of them in addition to the hardcopies just for the sake of convenience, and you'd get a lot more impulse buys from people who are just curious, and hell whats 10 bucks anyways? Either a new codex or the latest Justin Bieber album.

They should also really work on developing digital army building tools. I mean that should have been a no brainer back when home PC ownership reached a majority in your target audience, which I'm quite sure was well over a decade ago.

AnEnemy
04-30-2013, 12:05 PM
Leaks happen in every industry. Remember when Gawker got their hands on an iPhone before release? Apple didn't sue. Apple didn't even demand that Gawker remove their story. "Legal right" seems to be a favorite term thrown around by the apologists. Didn't Apple have a legal right? Yeah, they could have raked Gawker over the coals because they had a solid case against them. Receiving stolen property to name the most layman charge. They didn't do anything about it. A product that's gone on to make billions and they let Gawker have their pictures. How about you admit that Apple knows a lot more about "business" than GW? How about you stop acting like GW is savvy for doing this?

The video game industry goes through this on a weekly basis. Even sites like Amazon will occasionally post info that companies haven't officially released. Most of the time, not all the time, but the overarching majority of the time...companies will ignore it. They'll write it off as damage done. They understand that attacking your fans with a baseball bat to get them off your lawn doesn't help sales.

The difference here is GW is either insane or...more likely...they understand their fanbase has been conditioned to accept what they do. If, say, Epic had their next GoW game spoiled what do you think they'd do?

Sue a dude with a private blog that caters to a couple thousand people a day? No. They're not morons. They understand that those two thousand people will distribute the story throughout the internet and turn a couple pictures that a few thousand might have seen into multiple millions of people laughing at their company.

How many people in this 19 page thread actually saw the HE scans? I'm willing to bet it's fewer than the number of people that are disappointed in this whole debacle.

GW made a horrible decision. And they are being thanked for it by people that frequent daily one of the very sites effected by their actions. It's appalling to watch so many people patch over their own self interest with loyalty to a brand. Humans usually reserve such reverence for political and religious matters.

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 12:31 PM
I think perhaps the people you are deeming "apologists" (HA!) are something far more mundane. The apt word would be apathetic. There are no victims here, no real injustice has been done. Maybe GW's actions are peeving some people off, but generally speaking some people are just always in a hurry to be peeved off. Being indignant is a great American pastime, I'm sure it similar in other parts of the developed world.

I tend to save my righteous indignation for things that actually matter personally. Being a wargames hobbyist is just something that I do because I am a big old nerd. I also enjoy building computers and BMWs, because I am a big old nerd with a decent job. None of these things really amount to much of anything in the course of human endeavor however. If GW shuttered its doors forever tomorrow I guess I'd be a little bummed out, but honestly it doesn't affect me or the world enough to get up in arms about it.

So yeah, I really feel that apologist is far too grandiose a term to be waving around in such an insignificant context.

I don't give GW my money out of religious devotion or anything like that. I give them my money because Orks is da best, and sometimes my wife lets me go shopping.

Nurglitch
04-30-2013, 12:46 PM
I think the notion is in the Apologia, or the explanation of why this isn't a big deal. One site was posting material in contravention of their user agreement and got taken down for it. Life goes on. I mean, have you noticed the little disclaimer everyone posting here signed onto when we registered? We post in the forum at the leisure of the BOLS owners, and they can delete or ban accounts however it strikes them. In other words, if you're going to promulgate other people's stuff, don't do so in collusion with an unwilling partner who made you sign a contract saying you wouldn't.

Denzark
04-30-2013, 01:54 PM
Breasts?

I'll buy that for a dollar...

The Girl
04-30-2013, 04:01 PM
And we are live: http://www.belloflostsouls.net

Front page is back up. If you aren't seeing it, give it some time for everything to synch up again. Every network will take a different amount of time to register the new redirect.

Bigred
04-30-2013, 05:21 PM
UPDATE:

We are back up and running - full steam ahead! We are working with google to determine exactly what occurred over the last 24 hours with the BoLS frontpage, but I would like to clear up a couple of things for the record:

1) BoLS was never targeted by any DMCA, IP, or any other violation notices. While other 3rd party sites on blogger may or may not have been targeted by Games Workshop and/or Google, BoLS never was.

2) We take our security and availability seriously. Steps are being taken to prevent such an occurrence from ever happening again. BoLS job is to provide you with wargaming news, opinion, and entertainment day in and day out - and we will do exactly that.

On a personal note, I would like to thank each and every one of you who showed up during the frontpage outage and got to see and explore the BoLS Lounge. We are very proud of our great wargaming forum community and hope many of you return.

Look for regular posts, columns and commenting as usual on the frontpage as of now.

Best regards and my deepest thanks,

-Larry Vela

confoo22
04-30-2013, 06:50 PM
Leaks happen in every industry. Remember when Gawker got their hands on an iPhone before release? Apple didn't sue. Apple didn't even demand that Gawker remove their story. "Legal right" seems to be a favorite term thrown around by the apologists. Didn't Apple have a legal right? Yeah, they could have raked Gawker over the coals because they had a solid case against them. Receiving stolen property to name the most layman charge. They didn't do anything about it.

Uh, there was a full on criminal investigation into how they acquired the phone including warrants issued, the searching of one of Gawker's editor's homes, questioning of the person who found and sold the phone, and ultimately Apple asked for the device back, which Gawker gave to them. The only reason that Apple didn't sue, which I take it is what you mean by "didn't do anything" is because it was determined that someone at the company had lost it and therefore it was not "stolen property," so therefore there was no criminal activity. It's seriously laughable that you would act like Apple is some kind of PR whiz considering they recently sued Samsung for $2.5 BILLION over the Galaxy SIII, with one of the complaints being that their phones were similarly shaped to an ipad.

And PS: GW isn't suing Natfka, they sent a takedown notice to Google asking them to remove a single post on Natfka's site. It was Google who made the ultimate decision to take down the site.

DarkLink
04-30-2013, 08:24 PM
There's a very, very big difference from a potentially stolen piece of expensive technology like a new Iphone, and posting a couple of pictures. Someone steals an Iphone, and they can reverse engineer it and do all sorts of legitimately illegal stuff with it. If you think posting a picture of an upcoming release is the same thing as stealing said release, you wouldn't make a very good lawyer.

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 08:29 PM
There's a very, very big difference from a potentially stolen piece of expensive technology like a new Iphone, and posting a couple of pictures. Someone steals an Iphone, and they can reverse engineer it and do all sorts of legitimately illegal stuff with it. If you think posting a picture of an upcoming release is the same thing as stealing said release, you wouldn't make a very good lawyer.

If you could get someone else to believe that they are the same thing however, you'd make an excellent lawyer.

daboarder
04-30-2013, 09:05 PM
It's seriously laughable that you would act like Apple is some kind of PR whiz considering they recently sued Samsung for $2.5 BILLION over the Galaxy SIII, with one of the complaints being that their phones were similarly shaped to an ipad.


Lets be fair,

The S3 is a FANTASTIC phone. I'm half convinced that apple sued because they wished they'd released it.

AnEnemy
04-30-2013, 09:40 PM
Uh, there was a full on criminal investigation into how they acquired the phone including warrants issued, the searching of one of Gawker's editor's homes, questioning of the person who found and sold the phone, and ultimately Apple asked for the device back, which Gawker gave to them. The only reason that Apple didn't sue, which I take it is what you mean by "didn't do anything" is because it was determined that someone at the company had lost it and therefore it was not "stolen property," so therefore there was no criminal activity. It's seriously laughable that you would act like Apple is some kind of PR whiz considering they recently sued Samsung for $2.5 BILLION over the Galaxy SIII, with one of the complaints being that their phones were similarly shaped to an ipad.

And PS: GW isn't suing Natfka, they sent a takedown notice to Google asking them to remove a single post on Natfka's site. It was Google who made the ultimate decision to take down the site.

Didn't say Apple was amazing at PR. I just said they were better at it than GW. Which was my backhanded point. I mean, Apple's sued a Chinese noodle company over Trademark infringement. Why do you think I chose them as an example? They're notoriously litigious and yet...similar situation and they didn't sue. They tried criminal charges and that failed. Civil charges might have stuck because it's generally easier to convict in a civil trial, but they didn't pursue it.

Still, you're right. It's not a great example.

Zaphod Beeblebrox
05-09-2013, 05:41 AM
Gary (Naftka) just released a video on his youtube channel, stating that the Faeit 212 will be back within a week. (http://masterminis.blogspot.de/2013/05/faeit-212-update-back-within-next-few.html)

He states that it will be - as expected - a stand-alone blog site so as to avoid future 'easy takedowns' by DMCA claims against Google/Blogger.

Also, he explains that the site will be 'bigger and better' and going above and beyond the quality content we already came to enjoy.

Faeit 212 'on steroids' - take that GW!

DarkLink
05-09-2013, 12:03 PM
Does that mean he'll start using complete sentences when posting rumors?