PDA

View Full Version : GW's Behavior Already Backfiring



Bigred
04-30-2013, 11:42 AM
This morning Tabletop FIX issued this (http://ttfix.blogspot.com/2013/04/public-service-announcement_30.html):


Public Service Announcement
As a precaution I pulled all articles dealing with GW, Forgeworld, Warhammer Forge, WH40K and WHFB from the blog.

I will no longer feature any news directly related to GW or Forgeworld on TTFix for the forseeable future.

So already folks are beginning to move away from covering Games Workshop. Just remember folks, less coverage of GW products is good - right??? As far as I can tell, this entire tempest in a teacup is about protecting that paragon of publishing - White Dwarf.

Have at it folks!

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 11:45 AM
Saw that post this morning and chuckled a little bit.

Lets just say this GW,

I've been playing the game of 40k for 20 years now. I'm more inclined to give up the hobby entirely and move on to one of your competitors' products (Maybe then I could actually play against someone other than one person at my LGS too) than I would be in getting my news from WD.

Stuff it in your pipe and smoke it. I'm perilously close to blowing the $1000 I have saved away for the Eldar release on parts for my boat instead.

Panxer
04-30-2013, 11:50 AM
These are market principle at work. Excellent! GW likes money? Simple rule, DON'T F&^K WITH YOUR MARKET BASE.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Many people attribute the quote, "there is no such thing as bad publicity," to Barnum, although there is no proof he is the author. Games Workshop apparently never heard it or chooses not to believe it. I agree that all this nonsense on their part is about their White Dwarf magazine, but I think it is more about "covering their arses" because the magazine isn't really competitive in the market.

It goes like this:

BIGGER BOSSES: "I thought you geniuses said this magazine was going to make some money and work as a good advertisement. You pushed all these stupid revamps that cost us even more money and we aren't seeing any damn return on it."

IDIOTS & BAD MANAGERS: "We were correct sir. It isn't bad managment or bad ideas. It is these parasites on the internet. The magazine would be doing great if everything in it wasn't leaked beforehand. People would be standing in line to buy it."

BIGGER BOSSES: "What about these complaints about it lacking any real content and it being nothing but a catalog we ask the consumer to pay for on a monthly basis? Is there any merit to that?"

IDIOTS & BAD MANAGERS: "Of course not Sir. It is all these nameless, faceless criminals on the net. They have nothing better to do than demonize us. All we have to do is crack down on them and the process will work the way it is supposed to do. The magazine has plenty to draw people to it... the best stuff just keeps getting stolen."

BIGGER BOSSES: "Ok, I guess that sounds reasonable. What about the fact that magazines and print in general is taking a hit? Could it be that we should just cut this magazine out altogether? We don't actually need it do we? Couldn't we do all this on a website for less? I mean even paying you guys to run/create this magazine is a total waste of money if you don't actually provide some kind of return in good publicity, let alone pay for yourselves?"

IDIOTS & BAD MANAGERS: "Perish the though Sir. Our magazine brings countless new players into the game. We are the heart and soul of the hobby! Our numbers (places in house generated numbers before them) show how important the magazine continuing are in fact to the very survival of the company. That is why we need to double down on it!"

BIG BOSSES: "Again that sounds reasonable. It sounds much better to tell the stockholders that criminals are hurting sales than to admit that we hired you idiots and bad managers... which in turns shows we are also idiots and bad managers. Call legal. Release the hounds!"

Justus Ackermann
04-30-2013, 11:56 AM
That is i-n-s-a-n-e! People are not allowed to talk about GWs products in unrelated Blogs? Ridiculous. If a WD would not be 8 bucks a piece, maybe I would be inclined to get one once in a while...

ElectricPaladin
04-30-2013, 11:58 AM
Saw that post this morning and chuckled a little bit.

Lets just say this GW,

I've been playing the game of 40k for 20 years now. I'm more inclined to give up the hobby entirely and move on to one of your competitors' products (Maybe then I could actually play against someone other than one person at my LGS too) than I would be in getting my news from WD.

Stuff it in your pipe and smoke it. I'm perilously close to blowing the $1000 I have saved away for the Eldar release on parts for my boat instead.

I hate to say it, but I'm starting to agree with you. You know, I can tolerate a lot of cr@p from a company, unless it effects me directly. Charge too much? That's ok, I'll just buy less. Your magazine mostly sucks? That's ok, I just won't read it. Sue left and right and act like a big copyright bully? To a certain extent, I can blame it on a hyperactive legal team. To a further extent, I can tolerate a certain degree of a$s-hattery from a company, because every corporation has its sins.

The thing is that this hobby is fun because its full of user-driven media and user-created content. I like being able to read up on stuff before its released. GW's behavior is starting to seriously crimp my style.

isotope99
04-30-2013, 12:04 PM
Look up King Canute (the king who thought he could turn back the tide through sheer force of will). That pretty much seems to sum up GW's approach at the moment, although it's worth pointing out that they are not alone in this, lots of companies are struggling with digital age. I really like GW's products (at least most of them the new daemon khorne chariot is a notable exception) and all the people connected with the company I've actually met have been great but sometimes they seem to be just deluded.

Controlling the leaks out of the company is one thing (and I actually like the new release schedule now that I am used to it) but trying to put the digital genie back in the bottle once the pics are out is pretty laughable. As has been stated before, most companies would kill for the kind of active fanbase GW has.

Denzark
04-30-2013, 12:09 PM
Either GW is being the big corporate bully everyone knows and loves... Or all those people who are 'internet personalities' and highlight their importance because they manage to get a copy of WD/latest release early, and have a good crow and spoil the surprise for people who are 'mere mortals' and get their stuff on release day, have cocked it up for the rest of us.

Somewhere inbetween methinks.

Dalleron
04-30-2013, 12:09 PM
How available is the WD outside of GW stores? Over here (Canada) it was pulled from a bookstore for reasons which don't matter to my question/point. If you intend the mag to sell your miniatures and the hobby in general, does it do any good to prevent it's features from being available online. Sure I play GW's games, do you really need to sell the product to me. No, I know whats what. I know the mag isn't that great.
Having it available in only one place has to cut into your sales. And if people don't have a glimpse of the product from anywhere, are they more inclined to come into your stores and buy it.

Nightfoxll
04-30-2013, 12:09 PM
Saw that post this morning and chuckled a little bit.

Lets just say this GW,

I've been playing the game of 40k for 20 years now. I'm more inclined to give up the hobby entirely and move on to one of your competitors' products (Maybe then I could actually play against someone other than one person at my LGS too) than I would be in getting my news from WD.

Stuff it in your pipe and smoke it. I'm perilously close to blowing the $1000 I have saved away for the Eldar release on parts for my boat instead.

I am switching over to other games, like Ambush Alley Games Force on Force or Alien Dungeon's All Quiet on the Martian Front. www.martianfront.com (http://www.martianfront.com) or http://aliendungeon.blogspot.com definitely different and high quality minis.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 12:12 PM
Have you checked out the Kickstarter for All Quiet on the Martian Front Yet? www.martianfront.com (http://www.martianfront.com) or http://aliendungeon.blogspot.com its definitely different.

Looks promising.

canadainbeaver
04-30-2013, 12:12 PM
Ford should follow GW, and shutdown NBCNews.com

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/spy-photos-reveal-details-2015-mustang-6C9692324

GrauGeist
04-30-2013, 12:18 PM
I've gone from playing 4+ GW-related games a week down to maybe once every other month. Not so much from GW being toolish recently, but just a long, steady building of corporate and design decisions that I just can't support. And the only way to show that is by doing something else.

I actively dislike the current edition of Fantasy, and I no longer feel particular excitement at the prospect of playing the current edition of 40k. I fully anticipate that recent notion of bad Allies rules and Army composition, along with the addition of random tables of tables for random table's sake will see me stop playing Fantasy entirely.

Thing is, I do just fine playing other games and such. When I'm playing BattleLore, I don't miss Fantasy one bit. Not even the slightest.

I probably ought to clear out the closet.

canadainbeaver
04-30-2013, 12:19 PM
If it is about white dwarf sales, then they need to address their production / delivery problems. I cancelled my subscription to white dwarf because I was unsatisfied with getting the magazine three weeks after it's release.

I voted with my dollar!

gcsmith
04-30-2013, 12:27 PM
What has them leaving the GW news got to do with White Dwarf?

DrLove42
04-30-2013, 12:38 PM
Jesus, people need to stop over reacting.

GW have ordered a website to stop publishing illegal copies of their public material.

Thats like Empire Magazine refusing to cover movies from Paramount because Paramount tried to get a Torrent website to stop.....

Deus_Morte
04-30-2013, 12:38 PM
I really think it might be time for us to collectively boycott them until they change their policies.

Graham Judd
04-30-2013, 12:39 PM
Hey, dont post ever - this perked my interest because i actually had somthing to add. Some news was posted on the times and npr way back when, on how spoilers made people go see more movies then they turned away. GW should do more research you guys previewing leeked content gets people excited. Shoot i dont even play anymore and im excited about eldar!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2012/07/26/157430614/it-was-all-a-dream-or-turns-out-spoilers-are-good-for-you

gcsmith
04-30-2013, 12:41 PM
I really think it might be time for us to collectively boycott them until they change their policies.

Change their policies about not wanting their stuff leaked before they want it. Right.... lets boycott them for wanting to keep things private.

madival
04-30-2013, 12:44 PM
I have to ask, isn't the problem with bell of lost souls on googles end? Also, who actually knows what has happened with naftka? If naftka did get taken down by GW, it wasn't without blatent reason. The very last blog post I read from them had pictures of pages from the new high elf army book or the white dwarf that hadn't been released yet. Not a summary, but actual pictures. Everyone knows that GW is jumping on peopels back. Why would you do that when you know GW is ontop of things that might (or in this case, blatantly are) copy write infringement.

On a side note, why is Bell of lost souls fanning the fire? The Bell of lost souls problem is with google. I have heard so much speculation about naftka from GW to Chinese Spam bots that I have no clue what is right. The thing is, this is really destructive to the hobby. There are people in this thread that have had enough with this little incident that they are jumping the ship from the hobby altogether. As much as GW hurts the hobby, and yes I will admit that they often hurt the hobby, things like this entire thread that are meant for a flame war will do more damage for no real reason.

okenobi
04-30-2013, 12:46 PM
I have been playing GW products for about 20 years now. I have not bought a WD for about five years now. I just joined BoLS about a year ago. I think their magazine sucks for what you pay for. And I didnt sign up to this web site to see future releases or white dwarf content. I signed up because to know your enemy in the gaming world, you read his diary on his tactics and how he thinks. This web site has mad me a better gamer. Not a copy of WD.

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 12:48 PM
I will admit that I kept buying white dwarf long after it's glory days, likely out of a sense of nostalgia to some extent (also being a financially irresponsible single guy in his early twenties.)

But there was a certain point where I just didn't like it anymore, and I figured if anything its a waste of my time if not money. It's been a few years since I've purchased an issue and I don't see that trend changing anytime soon. Of course I don't purchase print magazines in general much these days. Its a dying medium and for good reason.

Sadly corporate interests will always seek to control information to whatever extent is possible. They will push the legal limits and sometimes they'll go beyond them until some government watchdog reels them back in (hopefully.) Instead of embracing the new information paradigm they choose to cling tightly to the older methods as long as possible for fear of losing revenue. Ironically it is the small footprint of GW that allows it to cling so long. I am pretty certain that the majority of major corporations would have loved to have continued doing business the same way they've done things since the 50s. They didn't want the internet or instant media publishing, they didn't want a 24 hour news cycle or an involved and educated consumer. The problem is that those things happened despite their wishes, and they simply had to adapt to remain in business. GW is affected at a much slower rate due to its small size and entirely niche market segment. They can go on living in a world without transparency for a very long time because, honestly, nothing they do is that important.

I mean hell, if the music industry can still pull half the shenanigans it still pulls I doubt we will ever see GW embrace the information age with anything more earnest than embittered resignation after many long battles.

canadainbeaver
04-30-2013, 12:48 PM
The speculation is that GW told google to shutdown the website, because posting pictures of the white dwarf before it's been release causes a reduction in sales of the white dwarf. The admin pulled all the GW content related info in the forum, before they shut form down too.

I said "If it is about white dwarf sales".

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 12:51 PM
gw have illegally ordered a website to stop publishing legal excerpts of their public material.

fify

DrLove42
04-30-2013, 12:51 PM
As has been pointed out people are letting their "personal" vindictions against GW get in the way

BoLS is down for technical reasons and have recieved no C&D from GW. Maybe its because Natfka was writter for BoLS weekly....BOLS is NOT down because of GW

Faeit is down because they published pictures and scan from un released documents. Its basically piracy. Don't get me wrong, I like Faeit and what they post but there was a line crossed

Def above me ^^^. WRONG. How is it illegally ordered? They issued a proper C&D through the correct channels. And how are the excerpts legal? It material taken from a thus far unreleased document belonging to a company. It'd be no different to putting up chunks of the new Star Trek movie on Youtube

canadainbeaver
04-30-2013, 12:52 PM
Jesus, people need to stop over reacting.

GW have ordered a website to stop publishing illegal copies of their public material.

Thats like Empire Magazine refusing to cover movies from Paramount because Paramount tried to get a Torrent website to stop.....

It's more like Paramount apply an injunction, without the court, on Empire Magazine for publishing a behind the scenes photo of a movie about to be released.

But then Empire would have permission to do so first

Defenestratus
04-30-2013, 12:53 PM
Faeit is down because they published pictures and scan from un released documents. Its basically piracy. Don't get me wrong, I like Faeit and what they post but there was a line crossed

You should REALLY go educate yourself about the limitations and uses of the DMCA before you say such things.

DrLove42
04-30-2013, 01:08 PM
You're right I'm not an expert on online legality. But everything I've seen and heard has said Faeit has ignored multiple requests to not or withdraw illegal/leak scan and images and GW took the final action one stop higher with google, and that google over reacted and pulled the entire blog, not just the offending articles, in a similar way that Amazon Knee Jerked and pulled that Space Marine book

NockerGeek
04-30-2013, 01:15 PM
You should REALLY go educate yourself about the limitations and uses of the DMCA before you say such things.

Here's the actual DMCA infringement takedown request: http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=928410

Magazine has a street date of April 27th. Takedown request was issued on April 22nd, on the grounds that the material was from a as-yet-unreleased product. GW, as copyright holder, was within their rights to issue a takedown request to Google, and Google, as an Online Service Provider, was obligated under Title II of the DMCA to honor that request. Now, Google could have just taken the offending post down/put it in "draft" status/etc., but instead took down the entire site (probably due to past requests aimed at the same blog for posting leaked info).

This is basically a lose/lose situation for Games Workshop - issue a legally proper takedown request and look like bullies to the wargaming community, or do nothing and risk losing their IP's protections by not defending it. As a company that depends on its IP to make money, they really can't do the latter, but they're drawing a ton of heat by doing the former. And of course, the Faeit212 blog isn't really the originating source of the infringement - it's wherever the leak in the distribution chain is, so that someone could snap pics of the magazine early and send them along to Natfka. When it comes down to it, the core cause of all of it is the tiny preview window that GW allows these days, making sites like Faeit212 that much more popular for the news-and-previews-hungry market that is the gaming corner of the internet. This is just the fallout from the legal repercussions of following through with that plan.

GW loses fans' respect (and inadvertently creates more ammo for the war between GW fans and GW haters), the fans lose a popular rumors site (and a popular news site through collateral damage), and everyone ends up just being that much more tense - all because of perfectly legal, valid action that, honestly, had to be taken.

DarkLink
04-30-2013, 01:16 PM
Jesus, people need to stop over reacting.

GW have ordered a website to stop publishing illegal copies of their public material.

Thats like Empire Magazine refusing to cover movies from Paramount because Paramount tried to get a Torrent website to stop.....

No. It's like if Paramount shut down Youtube so no one could watch the trailers for upcoming movies. Trailers that, for some stupid reason, Paramount only ever releases the day before opening.

NockerGeek
04-30-2013, 01:24 PM
No. It's like if Paramount shut down Youtube so no one could watch the trailers for upcoming movies. Trailers that, for some stupid reason, Paramount only ever releases the day before opening.

Well, more accurately, it'd be like Paramount complaining to Youtube about a Youtube channel that posts trailers before Paramount wants to release them, and Youtube shutting down that channel/user's account. Now, while we would agree that Paramount's one-day trailer policy would be stupid, it's still their property and their legal right to release trailers whenever they'd like.

And it's like that here. I think we can all agree that GW's one-week preview window is a bad policy for all involved. It's still their right to have that policy, because it's their content and they have the right to release it in the manner they see fit. Just because someone else decides to circumvent that policy and leak stuff early doesn't make it legally right (even though we all love seeing the info ahead of time).

DarkLink
04-30-2013, 01:26 PM
You're right I'm not an expert on online legality. But everything I've seen and heard has said Faeit has ignored multiple requests to not or withdraw illegal/leak scan and images and GW took the final action one stop higher with google, and that google over reacted and pulled the entire blog, not just the offending articles, in a similar way that Amazon Knee Jerked and pulled that Space Marine book

Those requests are not court orders. GW never went to a judge and said 'hey, this guy is doing something illegal'. Which, unless Nafka himself had signed an NDA, I'm pretty sure there's absolutely nothing illegal about what he's doing. There's no legal basis upon which GW shut down Faeit's site.

Google can shut down any of their sites at a whim, simply by no longer linking to that site. Companies send requests to Google for this sort of thing on a fairly regular basis, but it's certainly not some formal legal process. In fact, recall SOPA and PIPA? Those were basically laws designed to formalize this exact process, where a company could request Google or whomever to take down X website for almost any arbitrary reason and Google would have to do it, and the company would be legally protected from any recourse. This is exactly that same scenario. GW decided to censure speech for no better reason than they didn't like it. It's not necessarily illegal for GW and Google to do this, but it's certainly counter-productive bullying.

And, no, it's not comparable to torrenting movies. Nafka wasn't posting the entire codex. He wasn't reselling material. He wasn't claiming ownership. In fact, he was basically providing marketing services for free, because GW refuses to even announce what their next codex is, let alone try and promote or market it until like the day before release. Posting sneak preview pictures is pretty well covered in most countries as fair use, though Britain has pretty crappy free speech laws compared to the USA so I don't know what they're like there. Australia, where Nafka's based, has some form of protection, someone linked to it in another thread.

Hokiecow
04-30-2013, 01:28 PM
Jesus, people need to stop over reacting.

GW have ordered a website to stop publishing illegal copies of their public material.

Thats like Empire Magazine refusing to cover movies from Paramount because Paramount tried to get a Torrent website to stop.....

Right.

A lot of people are letting their dislike for GW corporate blind them to the fact they are within their legal rights. Other blogs and forums have not impacted by this. I'm assuming it's because they have taken GW IP more seriously.

Kirsten
04-30-2013, 01:29 PM
There's no legal basis upon which GW shut down Faeit's site.


probably why GW didn't shut down the site :rolleyes:

olberon
04-30-2013, 01:33 PM
to a certain extend the hunt of the GW gestapo (can i use gestapo and GW in one sentence or even in public??) was amusing. now they are just getting annoying. to quote electric:


I can tolerate a lot of cr@p from a company, unless it effects me directly. Charge too much? That's ok, I'll just buy less. Your magazine mostly sucks? That's ok, I just won't read it. Sue left and right and act like a big copyright bully? To a certain extent, I can blame it on a hyperactive legal team. To a further extent, I can tolerate a certain degree of a$s-hattery from a company, because every corporation has its sins.

The thing is that this hobby is fun because its full of user-driven media and user-created content. I like being able to read up on stuff before its released. GW's behavior is starting to seriously crimp my style.

thundrchickn
04-30-2013, 01:35 PM
The real question now is if BOLS will do the same thing. I think it would be hilarious if BOLS removed all mention of GW products from their site and youtube channel for the rest of the year. Lets see if their is a correlation to quarterly statements. I'd love to see some more focus on the star wars x wing game, warmahordes, dystopian wars, infinity, etc.

Slacker
04-30-2013, 01:37 PM
This is basically a lose/lose situation for Games Workshop - issue a legally proper takedown request and look like bullies to the wargaming community, or do nothing and risk losing their IP's protections by not defending it. As a company that depends on its IP to make money, they really can't do the latter, but they're drawing a ton of heat by doing the former. And of course, the Faeit212 blog isn't really the originating source of the infringement - it's wherever the leak in the distribution chain is, so that someone could snap pics of the magazine early and send them along to Natfka. When it comes down to it, the core cause of all of it is the tiny preview window that GW allows these days, making sites like Faeit212 that much more popular for the news-and-previews-hungry market that is the gaming corner of the internet. This is just the fallout from the legal repercussions of following through with that plan.

GW loses fans' respect (and inadvertently creates more ammo for the war between GW fans and GW haters), the fans lose a popular rumors site (and a popular news site through collateral damage), and everyone ends up just being that much more tense - all because of perfectly legal, valid action that, honestly, had to be taken.

I still feel like there has to be some way GW can still enforce their IP and not come off like bullies, but that would be what a competent PR department would be used for...

Denzark
04-30-2013, 01:39 PM
I like GW even better - I never knew they had the power to close down websites on other people's servers. I may even get shares.

Oh what - its not actually GW, but Google over-reacting? And everyone is ranting at GW? Well I never.

Ordo Septenarius
04-30-2013, 01:42 PM
The real question now is if BOLS will do the same thing. I think it would be hilarious if BOLS removed all mention of GW products from their site and youtube channel for the rest of the year. Lets see if their is a correlation to quarterly statements. I'd love to see some more focus on the star wars x wing game, warmahordes, dystopian wars, infinity, etc.


If they did that, would this site be around? BoLS touts itself as a wargaming site, but really, there's one game in particular that I believe MOST people come here to read about.

Nurglitch
04-30-2013, 01:43 PM
http://jpegy.com/images/uploads/2012/03/once-you-hate-someone-everything-they-do-is-offensive.jpg

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 01:44 PM
I'd love to see some more focus on the star wars x wing game, warmahordes, dystopian wars, infinity, etc.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I don't believe you.

Places like this would vanish like a fart in the wind if they unilaterally stopped covering all GW products. GW products are basically the only reason blogs like this exist. I mean, it'd be great if somehow some other dark horse miniature company seized the moment and used all that extra free publicity for a big market segment grab, but that's not really how these things work.

NockerGeek
04-30-2013, 01:44 PM
I still feel like there has to be some way GW can still enforce their IP and not come off like bullies, but that would be what a competent PR department would be used for...

Get the IP protection laws changed so that companies don't have to be so kneejerk when it comes to defending their property. However, there's way too much money on the Hollywood and recording industry side of that equation for the laws to change, so GW is just playing in the pool that the bigger boys created.

In this instance, though - a longer pre-release and info cycle would do wonders to making situations like this particular one disappear.

confoo22
04-30-2013, 01:47 PM
because GW refuses to even announce what their next codex is, let alone try and promote or market it until like the day before release.

Actually, GW has a daily blog (except weekends) and the week before releases they make regular posts of models that they'll be releasing along with links back to preorder pages. It may surprise people to know this though as most people don't go to the GW site to view the models because so many other blogs post the leaked pictures, therefore severely limiting a possible marketing stream for GW.

This situation seems to sit more with Google taking Natfka down as a "serial offender" because if you look up the DCMA complaint (which you can view at chillingeffects.org), GW lists only the High Elf picture dump from last week as infringing on their rights to "first release," which is all they ask them to take down. Google is the one who decided to pull the entire site, probably because they receive complaints like this once a month or so.

So just because they don't market their stuff in a time frame that most people would prefer doesn't mean that they should lose their right to be able to post their copyright material first.

That being said, I do hope that Natfka's site comes back up soon as it's definitely one of my favorite on the web, but let's stop with the idea that GW is somehow running rough shod over some poor innocent here when anyone paying attention knew the risks at hand here.

Ordo Septenarius
04-30-2013, 01:48 PM
I don't mean to be confrontational, but I don't believe you.

Places like this would vanish like a fart in the wind if they unilaterally stopped covering all GW products. GW products are basically the only reason blogs like this exist. I mean, it'd be great if somehow some other dark horse miniature company seized the moment and used all that extra free publicity for a big market segment grab, but that's not really how these things work.


Specifically, 40k. Like I mentioned, that's the reason most people come here. BoLS is simply a 40k info site (and I love it).

Mr Mystery
04-30-2013, 01:50 PM
It wouldn't though.

Going back a few years, GW was more forthcoming with the upcoming. And there were more leaks and stuff to boot.

Where has all the hush hush come from? Hard to say exactly. None of us here know, though of doesn't stop people slagging off such decisions, and posting up ludicrously paranoid theories they are quick to pass off as truth.

As for back firing? Not at all sure it has. Take steps against a few, and more clam up? Saves time and money, greater success..... I'd say its worked pretty well, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good idea.

thundrchickn
04-30-2013, 01:56 PM
Beasts of War seems to do just fine with a broader range of coverage. Maybe if BOLS spent this downtime catering to other games, those games could make some more money to reinvest and really give GW a run for its money after producing better models. We can almost unilaterally agree GW makes the best models but maybe these other companies could get in their if they get the right funding to advance their production abilities. I admit that I come here mostly for 40k news articles but that doesn't mean I dont check out these new games that get a blurb or read strategy/introduction articles for other games. I'd love dystopian wars to become more popular because it's a better game imo compared to 40k. The rules are horribly laid out but it's much better with the rule summaries that are available on Spartan Games forums.

Denzark
04-30-2013, 01:58 PM
I thought it was widely agreed that a lot of GW policy is linked to their deal with New Line for LotR bollocks - ie no sales, no big box deals (Leman Russ Companies) and no early previews. Maybe it don't apply to 40K and maybe GW (a profit making retailer in a recession) have assessed that it is better to apply the restrictions across the entire range.

italyrox3
04-30-2013, 01:58 PM
Are people really serious about this?

Lets see, FEIT knows that the products they are "spoiling" are guarded IP, they have been warned before by GW. Then GW sent the DMCA to Google who owns Blogger (what FEIT uses) and GOOGLE shut down FEIT because google wont risk being sued over one stupid site that has been warned plenty of times.

People who want to blame GW for protecting there information clearly dont have any understanding of business or the law for that matter.

And the people who are planning on leaving the game or making there own models over this are crazy as well. All that will do is hurt your FLGS, wont be hurt one bit by a few angry people leaving the game, but your FLGS WILL BE. You dont have to agree with everything that GW does, I know I think the price increase gets nuts some times. But to get mad at them for protecting there own property?

I really hope that the people who are mad about this some day get to the point where they produce some IP that people are willing to pay for and then someone steals it from you! Then come crying to the masses!

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 01:58 PM
I guess you could call this a (very mild) conspiracy theory, but at this point I'd assume it was more like common sense. The reason GW doesn't release any information on its new products until the 11th hour is because the Eye of Sauron is fixed on Rivendell... I mean impulse buys.

They are really into this marketing tactic all the way. They're not terribly interested in promoting products very far out, they don't want you to know whats coming. They don't want you saving your money for the stuff you really want and know is coming in a few months, they want your money right now. They want those pre-orders. They want a big flashy image on their website with a "BUY NOW DO IT" button on it.

I really can't fathom how this is supposed to affect long term sales in the slightest, but I guess they're all in on this tactic and they don't seem keen on changing it.

This is likely just an offshoot of their target demographic. Its for the same reason that we inexplicably have 17 different flavors of Space Marine, because kids love that shiz yo. They figure they've all ready got all the old timers in the bag and whatever money we'll fling their way will come regardless, what they're really focused on is the initial impulse buy in that happens around Christmas time. The recent rapid fire releases with little to no lead up time are just extensions of that, in effect they're trying to reproduce Christmas every month.

There's really no downside for them I guess, since there's really no competition. You can go on about the merits of the other wargame manufacturers, but no matter how bad it gets you'll never get me to play warmahordes for the same reason you'll never see me sporting a Zune. It might be better in certain respects, but ultimately what you're faced with is something wholly derivative and less supported due to its lack of popularity. If I've got to put up with BS, I'd rather have that BS straight from the original Bull.

Mr Mystery
04-30-2013, 02:03 PM
Makes sense.

After all, this is a hobby where impulse is King. A single purchase can lead to an army for many Hobbyists, old and new.

Showing stuff off early means the impulse fades. That equates to lost sales opportunities.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 02:09 PM
If "impulse" buys are truly their concern, they need to hire some more reputable firms dealing with sales consulting. The prices on Games Workshop products lodge them firmly in the luxury range. Only a select few people "impulse buy" luxury items. Most of us have to think long and hard about dropping the kind of coin their product requires. In short, their product is not good for impulse sales in the first place.

If you doubt me, go to your local store (any level from Walmart to Boutique) and look at the items placed by the register. These are the ones intended as "impulse" purchases. You will find that these are the cheaper items that particular store sells. By contrast, most companies that sell luxury items start an advertising campaign which hits the public long before the item itself is available. This is because they want people drooling over it and thinking about it and working it through in their minds.

I find the whole notion of "impulse" buys laughable, but sure let's go with that. Explain how seeing a picture of an elf on a bird a week early will allow this person to change his/her mind? :D

Maelstorm
04-30-2013, 02:10 PM
The real question now is if BOLS will do the same thing. I think it would be hilarious if BOLS removed all mention of GW products from their site and youtube channel for the rest of the year. Lets see if their is a correlation to quarterly statements. I'd love to see some more focus on the star wars x wing game, warmahordes, dystopian wars, infinity, etc.

Take a look over at Beasts of War - They have gone from 75-80% Games Workshop content on their front page down to 10-20% GW content. This occured almost immediately after the last bone-head move by GW - the one that caused Mini-Wargamming to close down their storefront.

DrLove42
04-30-2013, 02:10 PM
I know that to be a fact. I stopped a lot of my new Tau plans the second I heard Eldar were soon

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 02:16 PM
I guess I just don't see GW merch as luxury priced. Sure its a "luxury item" in the same sense that video games and movies and Kanye West are luxury items, they don't really do anything but waste your time (hopefully pleasurably.) but the price point is not that crazy. Like, I wouldn't impulse buy a 7 series, that's 6 figures and all that. But a hundred or so bucks here and there on a few boxes of plastic crack? Its not that far out of the picture. I'd spend that money on something else if it wasn't toys, and it would be equally as useless.

So really your definition of luxury item is purely subjective and largely dependent on your income, and if your income isn't sufficient to consider GW merchandise as a viable impulse buy then I posit you are not the target demographic, which ostensibly is the genesis of a lot of the hate swirling around GW in the first place.

daboarder
04-30-2013, 02:17 PM
I know that to be a fact. I stopped a lot of my new Tau plans the second I heard Eldar were soon

And I know for a fact that hearing tyranids were getting redone had me staying in the hobby.

Stop with anecdotal evidence please.

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 02:19 PM
As to how having a longer period of time to think about a purchase before actually throwing money at it can negatively impact the impulse to buy...

well uh... yeah. That's kind of like one of those questions that answers itself don't you think?

Inquisitor Hate Machine
04-30-2013, 02:20 PM
I wonder how long people will say "if they don't stop, I'll leave!" Before they actually leave...

Nurglitch
04-30-2013, 02:24 PM
I did that. I got all self-righteously fed up with the early 4th edition and left. Then I tried to get other people to leave, wrote my own game, and tried out various thirdy party games. Finally, I got back in because my game had flopped and I wanted to play games that people played. And I enjoyed it. I think I needed the perspective.

confoo22
04-30-2013, 02:25 PM
I wonder how long people will say "if they don't stop, I'll leave!" Before they actually leave...

As long as there's an internet where you can post anonymously so people won't know that you were at your local FLGS the next weekend looking through the GW section.

Power Klawz
04-30-2013, 02:28 PM
I stopped playing for quite a few years, not because of any dissatisfaction with the product or anything though. I was just preoccupied for a few years trying to get girls to like me. Also being in the military.

I was kind of surprised that after so many years that GW was still in business. Not really sure why, I guess I just sort of figured that video games would have killed the whole market by that point in history.

End of the World
04-30-2013, 02:44 PM
Beasts of War seems to do just fine with a broader range of coverage. Maybe if BOLS spent this downtime catering to other games, those games could make some more money to reinvest and really give GW a run for its money after producing better models. We can almost unilaterally agree GW makes the best models but maybe these other companies could get in their if they get the right funding to advance their production abilities. I admit that I come here mostly for 40k news articles but that doesn't mean I dont check out these new games that get a blurb or read strategy/introduction articles for other games. I'd love dystopian wars to become more popular because it's a better game imo compared to 40k. The rules are horribly laid out but it's much better with the rule summaries that are available on Spartan Games forums.

This is what I sincerely happens.

I like the BOLS team's coverage and would like to see some of their creativity and style being dedicated to other games. I realize beasts of war already covers a varied spectrum but they are more of a news outfit whereas BOLS is more of a blog and shows off the more creative aspects of the game they are discussing. I feel like this unique flavor can be applied to other games to produce some amazing content. ^__^

Slacker
04-30-2013, 02:50 PM
Get the IP protection laws changed so that companies don't have to be so kneejerk when it comes to defending their property.

Takedown request was issued on April 22nd, the site goes down April 29/30th. There was plenty of time to communication to the public (in a social manner not just a DMCA) on the actions that were in progress. Does GW have to explain themselves in regards to their legal actions? No. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't.

There is a subtle difference between what GW is doing and how they are doing it that I'm getting at here. From a public perspective, the punishment is being doled out and then the reason is given for the punishment so the initial reaction is punishment for some unknown reason that is given later.

Caitsidhe
04-30-2013, 02:57 PM
If I believed Games Workshop actually had a public relations department, I would suggest sacking them. Whether we agree with their actions or not, nobody can dispute the fact that Games Workshop really, absolutely, completely sucks at public relations. I normally hate adverb abuse but in this case it is warranted. :)

GrauGeist
04-30-2013, 03:13 PM
I was just preoccupied for a few years trying to get girls to like me.

Getting tail trumps pretty much other "guy" activity, including any flavor of "playing toy soldiers".

In the immortal words of Alpa Chino: "I love tha *****, hell yeah!"

NockerGeek
04-30-2013, 03:31 PM
Takedown request was issued on April 22nd, the site goes down April 29/30th. There was plenty of time to communication to the public (in a social manner not just a DMCA) on the actions that were in progress. Does GW have to explain themselves in regards to their legal actions? No. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't.

There is a subtle difference between what GW is doing and how they are doing it that I'm getting at here. From a public perspective, the punishment is being doled out and then the reason is given for the punishment so the initial reaction is punishment for some unknown reason that is given later.

Of course, attempting to open up a dialog or make a comment of any sort draws out all the people who hate GW for whatever reason and it ends up turning into a lot of people arguing, but no one really discussing - and let's face it: a PR department's job isn't to discuss things with the public. It's to try to project a particular image for the company, and at this point I don't think anyone would buy a kinder, gentler GW trying to explain why it had to issue a takedown of a particular site. Too many people have their emotions tied up in the issue, and see these kinds of actions as personal slights, whether they are or not.

Of course, GW's communications department tends to take its ball and go home at the first sign of discontent, which isn't a winning strategy either. Both sides - and yes, I'm including all the people here who are up in arms - need to learn to chill out and think things through and figure out how to communicate without looking like *****. For the company, it means being willing to open up to discussion with the fanbase more. For the fans, it means putting down the torches and pitchforks, laying off the vitriol, and learning to act like reasonable people when such an opportunity arises. That doesn't mean you can't be angry with a decision, but it does mean learning to choke down the indignation, righteous or otherwise, and talk through something calmly and not take things personally.

AnEnemy
04-30-2013, 03:46 PM
I should think, "controlling our own employees and not releasing WD weeks ahead of time in some markets," would take precedence as a rational attempt at a solution.

Apparently, others like you think that shutting down three websites is the solution.

Use some critical thinking please.

Harmonious Borealis
04-30-2013, 03:49 PM
I just want to chime in as someone who left the WHFB/40k community over a year ago.

Possibly a reason that sites like BoLS don't cover as much Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, Infinity, etc. is because those companies openly discuss their products and upcoming releases on a regular basis?


The price increases drove GW product out of my price range, and the clamming up just rubbed me the wrong way, especially when I was doing my level best to sell the damned models, which I happen to still really like. I'm sure many local stores only start turning to selling other games when the product they have is no longer meeting their needs, like sales targets. Dedicated gaming customers can be fickle beasts when "new-shinies!" suddenly present themselves.

Especially so when the players, retailers, and even the company itself presents itself with an enthusiastic, open, "I'm-just-a-gamer-like-you" attitude. Most of my experience now is with Privateer Press, who run their own forums which all the upper levels of the company participate in, to some degree.

Now look at GW's PR strategy. It can be hard to tell if anyone above the design levels even like their product.

In the case of these takedowns, it sounds like GW is not particularly in the wrong. But it seems to be the same way that you would punish your dog for tearing up furniture when he had already done so dozens of times before, even though you didn't see it this time and may have been the cat after all.

I don't like the GW hate myself, but I also don't like the way GW treats its customers.

rabscutle
04-30-2013, 04:14 PM
Takedown request was issued on April 22nd, the site goes down April 29/30th. There was plenty of time to communication to the public (in a social manner not just a DMCA) on the actions that were in progress. Does GW have to explain themselves in regards to their legal actions? No. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't.

There is a subtle difference between what GW is doing and how they are doing it that I'm getting at here. From a public perspective, the punishment is being doled out and then the reason is given for the punishment so the initial reaction is punishment for some unknown reason that is given later.

Said perfectly. It doesn't help that the DMCA is a terrible law anyway, but I'll leave you to go read The Verge or CNet at the length of that reality.

Just... It isn't what GW is doing. It is how. I love me some Orks. I am currently reading Betrayer and I'm blown away at how much I love that series. But they keep being just kind of jerky about how they treat people who should be their business partners. They should be working with sites and helping push out buzz and make their products grow and grow. An example of doing this right: Macklemore and Ryan Lewis. They hit #1 mainly from the buzz they were able to create on social media. Their music is out there for people to get free... and yet people bought it in droves. This is the modern world.

GW continues to want to make it harder to buy their products (no online sales but from their website) and harder to find out about what is coming out (poop storms like this one).

Why do you want to make it harder for me to be your customer GW? Why?

NockerGeek
04-30-2013, 04:17 PM
I should think, "controlling our own employees and not releasing WD weeks ahead of time in some markets," would take precedence as a rational attempt at a solution.

Apparently, others like you think that shutting down three websites is the solution.

Use some critical thinking please.

Oh, I absolutely think that GW needs to try to figure out where the leaks in their distribution system are and quash those if they want to fix this problem. Alternately, I think they need to go back to a longer pre-release window, where there was a good month or more of information on a release before something went up for sale. One or both of these would have prevented a situation like this. The former would have prevented the leak in the first place, and the latter would have made the leak unnecessary, or at least far less important.

I do not like that Faeit212 and BoLS are down (and I'm unaware of a third site involved, but please keep me informed), possibly permanently in Faeit's case. That said, I cannot blame GW for taking the legal action that they are obligated to take to protect their copyrighted materials, nor can I blame Google for responding to that action in the manner that they are obligated to do so by the current law. I don't like current IP law, and I would love for it to be less restrictive, but both companies are playing in the legal pool that exists, not in the fantasy one I would like to see. As I've said earlier, this was a lose/lose decision for GW - no one was going to come out of this happy. However, anyone who thinks they were going to err on the side of not protecting their IP hasn't been paying attention.

Short version: it sucks all around, but it sucks the way the law says it has to suck.

Wolfshade
04-30-2013, 04:38 PM
Look up King Canute (the king who thought he could turn back the tide through sheer force of will).
That is quite a common misconception, in fact he was proving the opposite. His stunt is showing that despite all of his powers he cannot affect the tides. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13524677)


Oh, I absolutely think that GW needs to try to figure out where the leaks in their distribution system are and quash those if they want to fix this problem. Alternately, I think they need to go back to a longer pre-release window, where there was a good month or more of information on a release before something went up for sale. One or both of these would have prevented a situation like this. The former would have prevented the leak in the first place, and the latter would have made the leak unnecessary, or at least far less important.

I do not like that Faeit212 and BoLS are down (and I'm unaware of a third site involved, but please keep me informed), possibly permanently in Faeit's case. That said, I cannot blame GW for taking the legal action that they are obligated to take to protect their copyrighted materials, nor can I blame Google for responding to that action in the manner that they are obligated to do so by the current law. I don't like current IP law, and I would love for it to be less restrictive, but both companies are playing in the legal pool that exists, not in the fantasy one I would like to see. As I've said earlier, this was a lose/lose decision for GW - no one was going to come out of this happy. However, anyone who thinks they were going to err on the side of not protecting their IP hasn't been paying attention.

Short version: it sucks all around, but it sucks the way the law says it has to suck.

It is a consequence of the law, and as you say they are in a loose-loose situation, like when they had to take down the largest Warhammer Online forum.

Slacker
04-30-2013, 04:41 PM
let's face it: a PR department's job isn't to discuss things with the public. It's to try to project a particular image for the company

Public image of a company, and in a situation such as GW's where they have a reputation of being the big bag meanie that doesn't care about it's fans and is solely motivated by the almighty dollar, one would think they could be more pro-active in protecting the image of the company than being silent until forced into responding to allegations (if they even bother to do that)


For the company, it means being willing to open up to discussion with the fanbase more. For the fans, it means putting down the torches and pitchforks, laying off the vitriol, and learning to act like reasonable people when such an opportunity arises.

Pretty much what I was getting at, though you state it much better as I had neglected to mention that the communicantion needed to be a 2-way street.

gendoikari87
04-30-2013, 07:47 PM
yeah, how's that profit only motive working now?

DarkLink
04-30-2013, 08:34 PM
I do not like that Faeit212 and BoLS are down (and I'm unaware of a third site involved, but please keep me informed), possibly permanently in Faeit's case.

GW had nothing to do with why BOLS was down. Pure coincidence that BoLS had technical difficulties the same time Google took down Faeit.



That said, I cannot blame GW for taking the legal action that they are obligated to take to protect their copyrighted materials, nor can I blame Google for responding to that action in the manner that they are obligated to do so by the current law.

Why do people keep thinking that Nafka was violating GW's IP/trademark/whatever? Nafka wasn't selling or profiting off of GW's products, or even distributing their products in a way that would hinder GW's profits. If Nafka was claiming ownership, or if they leaked actual pdfs of the new codex, sure, but I've yet to see anyone point out what actual law Nafka was breaking, and I have seen some people point out that multiple countries legally protect what he was doing as fair use. So why do people keep assuming that this is like the Chapterhouse case where GW had to act in order to protect their trademarks? This and that have very little in common. And, no, Google is not obliged to do any of this. SOPA and PIPA were, based on my understanding, both designed to allow companies like GW to do exactly this with impunity, and those were both shot down.

In fact, unless you're an IP lawyer, none of us here should be laying down any judgement either way, because none of us actually knows what the hell we're talking about.


Now, Nafka might have violated his terms of use policy with google. That's very different from doing something illegal.

Nefarius Drapesh
04-30-2013, 08:53 PM
I don't really know. But I can't see the fan blogs dying out. What I can see is nearly all blogs going to be readable for registered users only soon...

AnEnemy
04-30-2013, 10:34 PM
Oh, I absolutely think that GW needs to try to figure out where the leaks in their distribution system are and quash those if they want to fix this problem. Alternately, I think they need to go back to a longer pre-release window, where there was a good month or more of information on a release before something went up for sale. One or both of these would have prevented a situation like this. The former would have prevented the leak in the first place, and the latter would have made the leak unnecessary, or at least far less important.

I do not like that Faeit212 and BoLS are down (and I'm unaware of a third site involved, but please keep me informed), possibly permanently in Faeit's case. That said, I cannot blame GW for taking the legal action that they are obligated to take to protect their copyrighted materials, nor can I blame Google for responding to that action in the manner that they are obligated to do so by the current law. I don't like current IP law, and I would love for it to be less restrictive, but both companies are playing in the legal pool that exists, not in the fantasy one I would like to see. As I've said earlier, this was a lose/lose decision for GW - no one was going to come out of this happy. However, anyone who thinks they were going to err on the side of not protecting their IP hasn't been paying attention.

Short version: it sucks all around, but it sucks the way the law says it has to suck.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't aiming my comment at you. I understand and agree, to a certain extent, with what you've been saying. I should quote more often.

Uncle Nutsy
04-30-2013, 10:47 PM
In fact, unless you're an IP lawyer, none of us here should be laying down any judgement either way, because none of us actually knows what the hell we're talking about.

Exactly. Threads like these are pure speculation from people who have no clue about the legal system, yet they feel compelled to comment.

NockerGeek
04-30-2013, 11:17 PM
GW had nothing to do with why BOLS was down. Pure coincidence that BoLS had technical difficulties the same time Google took down Faeit.

True. The timing was quite unfortunately coincidental. I'm glad the two are unrelated.


Why do people keep thinking that Nafka was violating GW's IP/trademark/whatever? Nafka wasn't selling or profiting off of GW's products, or even distributing their products in a way that would hinder GW's profits. If Nafka was claiming ownership, or if they leaked actual pdfs of the new codex, sure, but I've yet to see anyone point out what actual law Nafka was breaking, and I have seen some people point out that multiple countries legally protect what he was doing as fair use. So why do people keep assuming that this is like the Chapterhouse case where GW had to act in order to protect their trademarks? This and that have very little in common. And, no, Google is not obliged to do any of this. SOPA and PIPA were, based on my understanding, both designed to allow companies like GW to do exactly this with impunity, and those were both shot down.

This has nothing to do with whether or not Natfka was making money on GW's work or not. It's that the blog was distributing content from a GW product that GW hadn't released for sale yet. Fair use doesn't cover it because it wasn't released to the public at the time it was posted. That means that, at the time, it was still considered confidential material and not subject to fair use protection. The DMCA notice was served several days before the White Dwarf street date. As I've pointed out elsewhere, it would be like distributing a segment of a movie for free before the movie had opened without the producers' permission, or releasing a chapter of a book online before it was on shelves without the publisher's permission. Whether you do it for free or not has no bearing in this instance. At the time, no one had permission to distribute the contents of White Dwarf to the public besides GW, which makes it a copyright infringement. And again, GW didn't pull down Natfka's site. They requested that Google take down the post in question, which they're obligated to do if they want to remain a safe harbor under Title II of the DMCA. Google just decided to take it a step further than that.


In fact, unless you're an IP lawyer, none of us here should be laying down any judgement either way, because none of us actually knows what the hell we're talking about.

You don't have to be an IP lawyer to figure this one out. The law is relatively cut and dry on this one, and a quick read of Title II of the DMCA (which isn't all that long, really) shows that GW's legal team pretty much followed their end of it to the letter. Is it good law? Eh, I'm not a fan of how current US copyright laws are skewed towards content owners (not necessarily creators) far more than originally intended, but at present, it is what it is. GW played their part, Google played their part. It's easy to be mad at GW for taking an action that led to the shutdown of a somewhat popular blog, but this is really a case of, "Don't hate the player; hate the game."


Now, Nafka might have violated his terms of use policy with google. That's very different from doing something illegal.

By posting material which infringes someone else's copyright, or at the very least draws multiple DMCA takedown requests over time, probably so.

And let me be clear about one thing: I'm not a fan of what happened. I happen to like Faeit212 a lot; I checked it at least once a day, if not more, and as a beginning High Elf player, I liked seeing the previews. I liked seeing the scans from Issue 400 as well, where the new Tau models were revealed - images which also disappeared off of Faeit212 a few days later (so I suspect another DMCA notice). I don't think what Natfka did was particularly wrong or
should be considered a violation, but what I think and what I'd like aren't the same as what the law is. Everyone lost on this one: GW lost some good faith among its fanbase (even though it was from doing something they were perfectly within their rights to do), the community lost a great rumors site, and more ammo was thrown into the pro/anti-GW fight that always tends to erupt when things like this happen. If I had to make a judgment, it's that we all lost because of current IP law.

Schmorgen
05-01-2013, 02:38 AM
It's 12 in Australia. And our money's worth more internationally

Desaster
05-01-2013, 03:32 AM
Brueckenkopf-online, the most influential german site for Tabletop News, announced that they will no longer feature any rumors and leaks from GW:
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=80856

OrksOrksOrks
05-01-2013, 04:57 AM
I don't know how the hobby will possibly survive without blogs.

Defenestratus
05-01-2013, 06:27 AM
You don't have to be an IP lawyer to figure this one out. The law is relatively cut and dry on this one, and a quick read of Title II of the DMCA (which isn't all that long, really) shows that GW's legal team pretty much followed their end of it to the letter.

Natfka is a journalist and afforded certain rights thereof.

Go read someone who knows what he's talking about on Dakka, Sean_Obrien:

No, not an image - the entire work. The leaked images might be a violation of an internal employment contract between the employee who manages to get the pre-release image and the company who owns the image...but that is not a violation on its own. The issue with it being a specific crime under Section 506 only if it is 1) Software/AV Works or 2) A Movie - and then only if it is a complete release, not a limited excerpt for purposes of review, new or criticism. That particular section is very limited in scope and relates to the criminal activity of releasing bootlegged videos (from prescreenings) and late Beta test software or other AV work:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506

(3) Definition. — In this subsection, the term “work being prepared for commercial distribution” means —

(A) a computer program, a musical work, a motion picture or other audiovisual work, or a sound recording, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution —

(i) the copyright owner has a reasonable expectation of commercial distribution; and

(ii) the copies or phonorecords of the work have not been commercially distributed; or

(B) a motion picture, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution, the motion picture —

(i) has been made available for viewing in a motion picture exhibition facility; and

(ii) has not been made available in copies for sale to the general public in the United States in a format intended to permit viewing outside a motion picture exhibition facility.

There is no inclusion for literary works - which is what books and magazines fall under. Regarding the Eldar Scrolls issue...lots of huffery goes into DMCA requests, and lots of sites will roll over on them as they either don't know the law or don't want to fight the fight. Just because something is taken down and people broadly comply - it doesn't actually mean that there are any grounds to do so.


See above, and further below...

In journalism, "journalists" receive broad protections under the law. If a journalist uses a leaked image they are not required to abide by laws and contracts which a company might implement in order to keep things confidential (See Johns-Byrne Co. v. TechnoBuffalo). It is quite common to have various prerelease leaks of all manner of products - from cars, to phones and even software and videos. These are all protected aspects of journalistic reporting. If they were posting a complete video or copy of software...or even somehow posting a 3D scan of a model - there might be some aspect with which GW could grasp at. However, the early posting of images from a magazine which is largely a product catalog does not amount to damaging to the product that GW is attempting to sell and is protected.

The illegal use by GW goes to this point here...quoted from their DMCA take-down request:

Sworn Statements
I have a good faith belief that use of the copyrighted materials described above as allegedly infringing is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law. [checked]

I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed. [checked]


Because of the nature of the DMCA, attorneys and companies who use it are expected to make a sworn statement that what they are targeting is in fact illegal - they also must sign the document under penalty of perjury that they have done their due diligence in ensuring that the law is actually being broken. The above quoted statutes (both the FAIR Act and the refutement of the pre-release issue) should make it clear that Nafka is a news site performing a news function - which is legal. Because it is authorized by law explicitly and does not infringe on any exclusive rights of GW...it would in fact be an illegal use of the DMCA. Either GW's legal team is not doing their due diligence in research or they are but are perjuring themselves - both of which are illegal uses.

Basically, if it was a music track, a computer program or a movie, making it available in portions before the release date would be subject to DMCA takedown. A printed image excerpt from a magazine/catalog publication is none of those things and therefore GW has made use of DMCA takedown illegally.

OrksOrksOrks
05-01-2013, 08:16 AM
You keep posting that quote up, but it doesn't actually pertain to this issue.

And Natfka being a journalist and being covered under those rules is highly suspect.

DarkLink
05-01-2013, 12:25 PM
There's also this, from another IP lawyer: http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2013/05/bols-faeit212-takedown-attorneys.html


So what is the legal fallout from the Faeit212 take-down?

A friend of mine is both an accomplished 40K player and an attorney with IP experience. We have been chatting about all of this as I am an attorney (though I am smart enough not to practice!) and he sent me this email:

As you're aware (I've read through the posts on your blog), they're seriously over-reaching in most of these takedown requests.

"Fair use" allows for news reportage and commentary, and nearly everything that I've seen would fall squarely into those areas.

Even Natfka's notice *claimed* that he was publishing photos taken of a WD that had not been released yet. But the problem with that is that's not completely true -- the photos HAD been released, albeit in Germany.

It's not like Natfka snuck into GW's offices and took some spy-camera photos of the WD; some 3rd party had the magazine and took pictures. That's a lapse on GW's part, not on the blogger/journalist/reporter that uses the images.

I don't know what you posted from IA12, but -- again -- that book was released in the UK before Adepticon, and was available for purchase there. If you put up limited images for commentary, you're within the ambit of Fair Use.

I really want GW to step too far over the line and get slapped. Copyright actions are one of the few areas in American jurisprudence where a successful defense can shift attorney fees. They have it coming!


His feedback is pretty much right on and while GW is probably overstepping their bounds, avoiding problems with them is pretty easy. You won't find me posting photos of their books and White Dwarfs anymore unless it is secondary to commentary about those items.








You don't have to be an IP lawyer to figure this one out.

Hmmm.... apparently you do, because the actual IP lawyers that Defenstratus and I all seem to say pretty much what I was speculating, that Nafka was protected under fair use, and that GW is overstepping their legal bounds, despite what all the other speculators (and trolls like Orks) were saying. Now, maybe other lawyers will step in and say "but...". Either way, my point that basically no one here is qualified to speak on this issue and we should all stop being a bunch of ignorant, judgmental finger-pointers is validated.

NockerGeek
05-01-2013, 01:09 PM
Hmmm.... apparently you do, because the actual IP lawyers that Defenstratus and I all seem to say pretty much what I was speculating, that Nafka was protected under fair use, and that GW is overstepping their legal bounds, despite what all the other speculators (and trolls like Orks) were saying. Now, maybe other lawyers will step in and say "but...". Either way, my point that basically no one here is qualified to speak on this issue and we should all stop being a bunch of ignorant, judgmental finger-pointers is validated.

I hope you're including yourself in that group. :)

In seriousness, though, it does seem that even lawyers are split on the issue. I won't just repost what I posted in the Rise and Fall thread, but if it does turn out that GW overreached, then I hope they do get slapped down for doing so. Lone bloggers fall into a big legal grey area, though, so who knows? And, as I've said several times already, even if GW didn't overreach, they still didn't really "win" this fight.

Wolfshade
05-01-2013, 02:47 PM
I don't know how the hobby will possibly survive without blogs.

I know, GW never sold a model until Sir Berners-Lee invented the interweb.

Power Klawz
05-01-2013, 03:39 PM
I know, GW never sold a model until Sir Berners-Lee invented the interweb.

It was Al Gore, it was initially conceived as a series of tubes...

Wolfshade
05-01-2013, 03:53 PM
It was Al Gore, it was initially conceived as a series of tubes...

That is like saying that Steve Jobs invented the computer...

Power Klawz
05-01-2013, 08:07 PM
That is like saying that Steve Jobs invented the computer...

No its much sillier than that!

DarkLink
05-01-2013, 08:11 PM
Not if you remember that computers are like televisions, with little people inside them who do what you tell them to when you tap them on the head while typing.

Mr Mystery
05-02-2013, 12:37 AM
Who then attach the message to specially trained micro hamsters, who run down the tubes to their destination.

Hence why a slow service is known as a 'Hamster Jam'

White Tiger88
05-02-2013, 01:16 AM
*Sigh* I really don't want to buy anymore GW but i need 3 models to have a playable army for tournaments........Mind you the level of how stupid they are acting as a company now day's might prove its a bad idea to buy anything from them. (They might just go down if they keep this crap up)

Wolfshade
05-02-2013, 01:33 AM
Who then attach the message to specially trained micro hamsters, who run down the tubes to their destination.

Hence why a slow service is known as a 'Hamster Jam'

E-mails are delivered by snails

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7458531.stm

gendoikari87
05-03-2013, 09:38 PM
*Sigh* I really don't want to buy anymore GW but i need 3 models to have a playable army for tournaments........Mind you the level of how stupid they are acting as a company now day's might prove its a bad idea to buy anything from them. (They might just go down if they keep this crap up)

Do what I did, quit until GW straightens up, sell your army, buy Magic: the gathering. You'll be much happier.

jgebi
05-03-2013, 10:16 PM
if anyone buys magic I'll hunt you down and slay you with bolter, chainsword and flame

Caitsidhe
05-04-2013, 08:37 AM
*Sigh* I really don't want to buy anymore GW but i need 3 models to have a playable army for tournaments........Mind you the level of how stupid they are acting as a company now day's might prove its a bad idea to buy anything from them. (They might just go down if they keep this crap up)

What do you need? I find you can scratch build, use Ebay, Bartertown, or someone local will have what you want. There is always prize support. Just win some and get what you want on Games Workshop. I just finished scratch building a VTOL Helldrake out of some Heresy Jump Packs, parts of a Hellbrute, and parts of several Dust Models. Came out great.