Blood Claws and Land Raiders...

[Creative Carnage]

I am looking to start a Space Wolves army in the near future, but I want to build a list first and then buy just the models I need to play that list.

I am thinking about building the force around the following combination:
Wolf Priest + 15 Blood Claws in a Land Raider Crusader. (probably two sets of this combo with varying wargear)

I like the combination of Oath of War and the +2 attacks on the charge with Blood Claws... the LRC has enough room for everyone and provides a relatively safe way of getting the unit into assault.

Am I crazy to think about basing an army around this?

[Confuddled]

Yeah, since you’d get a LOT more mileage out of fully-tricked out Grey Hunter units with the Wolf Standard. ;)

10 Grey Hunters, 2 plasma/melta guns, power weapon, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, 1 optional attached Wolf Guard (power fist and combi-weapon) and a Wolf Priest

Trick is:
a) You don’t need the capacity of a Crusader when a Redeemer will do – apart from the increased capacity, the Redeemer is the better tank (flamestorm cannon trump hurricane bolters anytime!)

b) You might lose out on quantity, but you gain quality.
- You have the option of shooting before you charge in.

- 10 Grey Hunters with an attached Wolf Guard can still dish out a very respectable number of attacks on the charge (24 standard S4, 3 S4 power weapon, d6+2 S4 rending and 3 S8 power fist attacks).

- The real killer would be the Wolf Standard. A Wolf Priest allows you to re-roll misses, but the Wolf Standard lets you re-roll ALL 1s (number of attacks for the Mark of the Wulfen, rolls to wound, armour saves etc…)


That’s usually quite enough to take down anything short of a maxed-out Nob Biker/Assault Terminator squad (which Bloodclaws would struggle with anyway – you might kill 3-4, but the return attacks are really going to hammer the Claws...pun intended)


It would also give you the option of unloading, letting rip with rapid fire (especially useful if you’re packing plasma guns and/or you’re jumping out in front of an enemy unit that has no ranged attack such as Assault Terminators, for instance) and then dare the survivors to try and charge you, reminding him that you’ve still got the Wolf Standard in play…


Total only(!!!) comes to about 1015 points before buying Wolf Priests, leaving you SOME points for other stuff … … Dreads, Speeders, one more Wolf Guard, garrison unit, Fenrisian Wolves to set up skirmish screens so melta-toting units coming out of pods can’t easily nuke your Raiders on turn 1 etc.


Its still going to be a challenge, though – you’re still going to be very tight for points, and anyone who can bust up those Raiders early (Tau and Dark Eldar in particular) are going to have a field day taking you down…


Of course, ONE such unit (Redeemer, 10-man Grey Hunter pack, attached characters and Wolf Guard to taste) could work very nicely in an otherwise balanced list. :D

[Unholy_Martyr]

I will agree with Confuddled, basing an army around a Land Raider Crusader filled with utter Blood Claw destruction would not be a wise move. However, don't count those crazy kids out. Later on, they can come in rather handy especially if used as a mop up force or if you just really need the numbers in close combat.

Given the above with the Grey Hunters, add these numbers in as well:
13 Standard Blood Claws = 52 Standard Attacks on the charge
Wolf Priest = 4 Power Weapon Attacks
1 Blood Claw w/ Power Fist= 3 Power Fist attacks
1 Wolf Guard = 3 Power Fist Attacks
Total=62 Attacks (6 S8, no save; 4 S4, no save; 52 S4 with save)

Combine that with with the Grey Hunters above and you get (Best Case Scenario):
Total= 100 Attacks (9 S8, no save; 7 S4, no save; 8 S4 Rending; 76 S4 with save).

Will you ever see this abomination? Maybe in a 2,000 point game...still something to consider for further down the road

[Dwarflord17404]

The advice i give to any one starting an army is this.. Never base your purchases around sexy trend of the day or in this case 3rd edtion. I like the story of blood claws but compared to Grey Hunters they don't compare. It is hard to argue that Grey hunters are the best basic trooper in the game with 2 attacks, 2 special weapons. There only draw back is they can't take a heavy weapon . That being said. I would build my list around 4 squads of 9 grey hunters eachled by wolf guard in a rhino with max special weapons and a Fist. For HQ I would take a Runic priest ( the wolf psycker) or Wolf Priest then maybe a pack or two of long fangs in razorbacks with t/l las cannons and 5 heavy weapons. Another advantage of this build is that as trends and edtions change you will still have a viable army and could even stand in as a vanilla marine list if they get a better rules set.

[Creative Carnage]

Generally speaking I would agree that the Gray Hunters are a better choice than the Blood Claws...

However our local events tend towards CC armies, particularly masses of Orc mobs.
I already have Eldar and Orc armies, so I am looking for something with a very different feel.

I would plan on using the LRC + Blood Claws as a first strike and holding group to bog down some of the other CC troops. While their lower WS means that they will get hit more often, it will rarely effect their ability to score hits... 4+, rerolling misses... 60 attacks on the charge from the blood claws... with the Wolf Priest attached to the group I can shoot the pistols first... this should allow me to cause some heavy damage as a first strike...

I am hoping that the Blood Claws will be a big enough distraction that it will give me more freedom in maneuvering the rest of my army.

... the value of the Crusader vs. Redeemer has more to do with how they are being used than any inherent value of the unit...

[Confuddled]

However our local events tend towards CC armies, particularly masses of Orc mobs.
Here’s the thing –
Blood Claws are great for chewing through big 30-man Ork mobs.

Trouble is:
1) They’re uncompromisingly armed for close combat – good luck in the event that the Land Raider(s) get busted early on.

When it comes to shooting (say at T4 targets):
a) Using pistols, the two units’ performance is almost identical:
- Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard - 11 shots, 7.3 hits, 3.67 wounds
- Bloodclaws - 15 shots, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds
Works out to 4 wounds total.

b) Using bolters? (NOT an option for Blood Claws)
Grey Hunters + Wolf Guard – 14 hits, 7 wounds
Throw in a pair of plasma or melta guns and the Grey Hunters are a lot more dangerous to a wider variety of units.


2) Same thing applies in combat – Blood Claws are great for beating up on lightly-armoured troops. Ork boyz, regular Guardsmen and the like.

15 Blood Claws are going to throw out 60 attacks, 45 hits and 22.5 wounds.
If you’re beating up on regular Ork boyz, that works out to about 18.75 failed wounds – more than enough to gut any given Ork mob.

If, however, you find yourself confronted by a harder unit (Nobz, Meganobz, Assault Terminators and the like), you’re going to take a lot more damage in return.

And that’s assuming his units are standing out in the open for you to assault – if he’s in a transport of one form or the other, you’re only going to have a couple of chances to bust up the transports before your assault phase rolls around.


The key difference is that Grey Hunters are almost as good when it taking down the cannon fodder, but for almost exactly the same point cost, they’re a LOT more effective against a wider variety of units.

At the same time, a Redeemer is a lot better-suited to providing close-in support for the disembarking squad than a Crusader.

Fair enough if you ONLY expect to face nothing but 180 Ork boyz on the table across from you, but a Redeemer or two stuffed with Grey Hunters is going to be a lot more viable (ie flexible) in the event that you actually run into a list that does NOT rely purely on masses of regular Ork boyz.





I am hoping that the Blood Claws will be a big enough distraction that it will give me more freedom in maneuvering the rest of my army.
Whaddya mean “rest of your army”? ;)

What sort of point value are you looking at?

Two Crusaders (extra armour and multi-melta), 30 Bloodclaws and 2 Wolf Priests are gonna cost you 1200 points before any further upgrades (ie power weapons, power fists etc)!

Still pretty fair if you’re running a 2000-point list, not so hot if you’re using anything in the 1500-1850 range.


As for providing distractions, well, its not JUST the Blood Claws – if you’re going to invest 250+ points in a Raider, you’d better make sure it can serve as a distraction as well!




... the value of the Crusader vs. Redeemer has more to do with how they are being used than any inherent value of the unit...
Here’s the thing about Crusaders and Redeemers.

Considering they’re both assault Raiders with relatively short-ranged sponson weapons and above-average passenger capacities, I’d say that the roles are almost identical, especially given all your talk about “first-strike” units using standard-size infantry models - drive at full speed straight down the middle, unload your cargo and start causing havoc.

Trick is, once you get there, the flamestorm cannons on a Redeemer are a lot more threatening to a wider variety of units compared to a Crusader’s hurricane bolters – the real threat is the cargo. Once the Crusaders deliver their payload (ie Bloodclaws), they are more of an annoyance than a real threat, making it that much easier for the other guy to concentrate on the Blood Claw units standing around.

With the Redeemer’s 2 Flamestorms, however, he’s going to have 4 threats he simply can’t ignore, since you can theoretically engage up to 6 targets once you get into his face.

(Will concede that engaging up to 4 units would probably be more realistic – drive up, slew sideways and jump out a side door.
One Flamestorm and the Grey Hunters hit one mob, second Flamestorm maybe fries a second mob of Boyz on the other side of the Raider…repeat for each Land Raider in play.)

It helps that Flamestorms aren’t too shabby against other armies and units either!



About the only time there’s a real qualitative difference between the two assault Raider variants would be if you’re using them to transport Terminators, since those extra 2-4 models represent a significant increase in survivability and offensive capability (call it 6-8 models in Terminator armour and 0-4 models in power armour, depending on your exact mix).

[Chumbalaya]

I would prefer WG or GH to BCs in a Land Raider, the WS4 and increased versatility is most welcome.

I would also prefer a LRC to a LRR. The LRC is more versatile and capable of doing damage outside of flamer template range. Getting immobilized pretty much makes it useless, but the LRC is still viable even if it can't move (so much dakka).

To back up dual Raiders, Speeders, Preds, and cheapo scoring units would be a must.

[Frozen Tiger]

im not really a fan of blood claws or crusaders i'd much prefer the grey hunters and redeemer but thats perosnal preference more than anything. if you throw Ragnar into a unit of Grey Hunters then you ahve a killer combination

[Confuddled]

The LRC is more versatile and capable of doing damage outside of flamer template range. Getting immobilized pretty much makes it useless, but the LRC is still viable even if it can't move (so much dakka).
HUH?

The twin-linked assault cannon and pintle-mounted multi-melta are the same for both variants, so that's a wash, leaving the sponson weapons.


Now, if you're talking about a Godhammer, then yeah, I could see the twin-linked lascannon on the sponsons still presenting a very credible threat.

But an extra 2x3 bolter shots at 24" (2x6 at 12") split evenly between 2 sponson mounts with limited arcs of fire?! THAT's "so much dakka"? Really!? :rolleyes:

[Chumbalaya]

Because sitting at midfield unable to use your awesome flamers is so useful? Bolters can stick wounds on things and force saves, much like the assault cannon. It would basically be an immobile Terminator squad :P

[Confuddled]

Sure. The hurricane bolters give me some extra dice to roll, but that's not exactly much of a contribution with regards to versatility or viability. It sure as heck ain't worth the extra 10 points!

If anything, the extra dice could well be a liability, especially if you're shooting at a single small squad - mixing bolter and assault cannon fire gives the opposing player the chance to assign multiple assault cannon shots to a single model.


Also, a immobile Raider (of any variety) carrying troops pretty much has a 12" (give or take) exclusion zone around it - odds are you don't want to get jumped by the troops inside.


An immobile empty Raider, however, is another matter entirely.

Godhammer? Yeah, those lascannon can still reach out and touch someone.

Redeemer? No one is going to want to wander into range of the flamestorms, so you've still got some impact on the game, especially if you're already parked in midfield - you've still got 8" of reach on either front corner, forcing him to go aroundl.

Crusader? Whatever - the bolter shots are an annoyance, especially if you're up against a horde of infantry. If anything, an opponent is more likely to use an empty Crusader as cover and a LOS blocker rather than avoid it!


If you really want versatility, it would be a toss-up between the Godhammer (long guns are nice in a Space Wolf army, though the 10-man capacity sucks wet dog poop) and the Redeemer (shorter range, decent capacity, good hull-mounted weapons), with the edge going to the Redeemer - bigger capacity, better hull-mounted gun and cheaper.


Where Crusaders really shine would be as Terminator transports, since you'd really get the most out of the increased transport capacity AND full benefit from the assault launchers.


edit
To put it another way:

If you absolutely must have that 16-model (or equivalent) capacity, then yeah, the Crusader is the go-to tank, and you just make do with its weapons mix as best as you can - take your shots where you can and hope for the best.

end edit

[Purple]

as a rule of thumb, most units can withstand a couple of bolter shos but nobody except temrinators will want to go need a redeemer.

In a SW army i dont see any need to take a LRC as i woudlnt be using any unit with more than 12 models in it. Wolf Guard and grey Hunters FTW. A massive temrinator squad in a LRC woudl be nice but who woudl do thatthats jsut asking for it

[Creative Carnage]

Thank you to everyone who posted... I may still consider this unit as the army gets up into the 2000+ point range... however I will more likely be running with Grimnar/Wolf Guard list or Rune Priests/Gray Hunters as the core of my army if I decide to build Space Wolves...

[DarkLink]

Sure. The hurricane bolters give me some extra dice to roll, but that's not exactly much of a contribution with regards to versatility or viability. It sure as heck ain't worth the extra 10 points!

edit
To put it another way:

If you absolutely must have that 16-model (or equivalent) capacity, then yeah, the Crusader is the go-to tank, and you just make do with its weapons mix as best as you can - take your shots where you can and hope for the best.

end edit

I've recently switched to using Crusaders instead of Godhammers (Grey Knights), and my Crusaders absolutely brutalize everything they touch. Now, admittedly, Grey Knight Crusaders are one of the few things that we have that are better than new Crusaders (we can always fire Hurricane Bolters, and get free Extra Armor and Multi-Melta), but I wouldn't trade the 24" firepower of a Crusader for an 8" effective range on my "good" guns.