Balancing out the "broken" armies.

[Kefka]

So we have our big three: Deamons, Dark Elves, and Vampires. Not every build is broken (except deamons..) and certain things get spammed, etc etc. But my question is, what would make these balanced?
For Dark Elves, I think it's simple:
raise the points of Hydras to at least 200
Pendant of Kalneth needs to not exist or cost 70+ points
boost the points of all the infantry by a few points to account for hatred.

Vampire counts is hard, as it's just a few builds that make them top tier. Summon spam vamps IS how they are supposed to be played, I guess, but it still seems unfair. I'm at a loss here.

And demons. I cannot express my hatred enough for this army. Everything needs to cost more. Perhaps put restrictions on units based on other unit choices (IE Tzeentch hates Nurgle, so you can't have troops from both Gods or something).

What do you guys think?

[Mike X]

So we have our big three: Deamons, Dark Elves, and Vampires.

And Daemonhunters...

[Ajjaxx]

I feel the best way to deal with vampire counts "broken" builds is raise the basic casting value of the "broken spells" up by 2 points. I notice whenever I go against a vamp counts player it is them rolling one dice repeatedly on invocation because they have +1 for vamp ability and +1 for staff and +1 for buying games workshop products and +2 because I have a Von in my name. So I need to roll a -2 to fail my casting roll. Make it where its casting value 6 and they MIGHT have to use 2 power dice instead of 1 and IF they use one even with +2 to casting, they only have a 50/50 chance of getting each spell off. Either way leaves them strong and balances the real problems with the list. Oh and make it where only skellys and zombies can be raised above what you originally paid for.

Dark elves- Hydra is awesome, so awesome I would pay 200+ points for it! SO make it 200+ points! Even doing something as simple as making it no longer a skirmisher would fix that. The reverse ward save ammy needs to be scrapped and replaced with a generic ward save of any sort, and the ring of miscast on any double needs to be either raised to 50+ points or make it where its only double 1 2 or 3's (similar to daemons something or rather) Other than that I can honestly say they are just powerful, not broken. My friend plays them WITHOUT those 2 pieces of gear and the hydra, and hes just a solid player that has a solid army.

Daemons- Add 5 points per model to each core troop, add 20 points per special and 100 points per hero and 150 per lord and 200 for each named character! Then they will only be moderately broken! All joking aside this is the WORST army book EVER to be conceived and I can think of nothing that does not need to be changed. The entire army book needs a re-write and the author summarily executed for heresy by the nearest commissar. I play against daemons, and must say that they are only fun to fight due to the fact that I love a challenge and there is no greater challenge than this army book. Nothing is balanced, nothing is bad, everything is good. They are fast, they are strong, they are durable, they have the best magic in the game, as well as an effective shooting phase. Only way to beat them is to break them fast as possible and magic resistance plus a great armor save is a great start! Vote daemons for a re-write ASAP. Forget the ones that need buffs, these need a debuff.

[Randroid]

I predict this thread will spiral into insults in 3... 2... 1...

[Lord Azaghul]

I feel the best way to deal with vampire counts "broken" builds is raise the basic casting value of the "broken spells" up by 2 points. I notice whenever I go against a vamp counts player it is them rolling one dice repeatedly on invocation because they have +1 for vamp ability and +1 for staff and +1 for buying games workshop products and +2 because I have a Von in my name. .


Just remember the lowest successful cast is an unmodified 3. Per the brb. But you're correct - that ability is lame.

[Ajjaxx]

Just remember the lowest successful cast is an unmodified 3. Per the brb. But you're correct - that ability is lame.

I do remember, had to double check that one on my first match with a VC player, it did not seem logical he would pass quite so easily. :) Thanks for the reminder

[Jesse]

Vanhels should not be recastable, that would fix vc.

Demons should lose thier ward save if not within 12 inches of the general and hit by a magical attack, and should have lower LD across the board.

Hydra should be 230ish points, hotek 50, harpies 0-2, shades should cost more and be capped at 10 models, and assasins limited to 1 per lord choice available, any taken after that take up a hero slot.

For LM engine should be 0-1.
Empire steam tanks should be 0-1

[elrodogg]

i predict this thread will spiral into insults in 3... 2... 1...

jerk!

[Kefka]

I predict this thread will spiral into insults in 3... 2... 1...

NERD!

(p.s. it'sbiteninja from the stronghold!)

[Randroid]

Howdy biteninja aka Kefka.

Well I was wrong about the insults I guess.

Personally I don't think VC is unbalanced. They have some really crappy troops and some good characters.

I'm with Jesse - you should not be able to recast Vanhels and the casting cost should be increased by a point as well. That would go a long way towards balancing the VC.

[Bean]

I play Daemons, and I'm honestly not sure what it would take to balance them out. A simple points-hike across the board wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be quite right, either.

Heralds providing significant buffs to core units they're in is an interesting mechanic, but basically unnecessary and excessive. The units don't need those buffs to be good, and the Heralds' costs are easily justified by the rest of what they do.

Daemonic gifts should probably be treated like magic items, with duplication disallowed. I mean, seriously: the High Elves have only made one Blade of Sea Gold, but Tzeentch gives out Master of Sorcery to every single one of heralds? I mean, I play Tzeentch, and I do give all of my Heralds Master of Sorcery 'cause I'd be a fool not to--but it's something that probably shouldn't be possible, given the way other codices handle their armories.

Greater Daemons should probably be slightly worse. Not worse by a lot, but dropping, say, the strength and toughness of the Lord of Change to five, the Bloodthirster's attacks to six instead of seven, perhaps. Some of the gifts are clearly too good, like Immortal Fury for 25 points or Power Vortex for 30 (if it seems like I keep hitting on Khorne and Tzeentch stuff, that's because I play Khorne and Tzeentch and haven't really bothered to look at the Nurgle or Slaanesh that much.)

Unfortunately, the core problems of the daemon book are the ubiquitous ward-save, fear, immune to psych, and the pseudo-unbreakable rule. These items are pretty much at the core of the daemon book, and would be difficult to alter without seriously changing the effectiveness of the army. Even making the ward save work the way it used to--i.e. not against magic--would be a massive blow to the army, probably a greater one than is warranted.

A more reasonable overall change would be to slightly increase the cost of the core choices--13 or 14 points instead of 12--cut back on some of the gifts, remove the heralds' unit buffs, tone down the greater daemons, and selectively increase the cost of some of the more excessive rare and specials like flamers and flesh-hounds.

[Pael]

How DE, Daemons, and VC go against each other? I see that GW is planning on buffing out all the armies across the board so that each army is unique unto themselves.
I have played OandG against VC many times and love it. The VC continuously raise the dead and I continuously grind them back down till a challenge between one of my heroes and a vamp to decide the outcome. Either I destroy the vamp and lessen the pressure on my troops or the vamp eats my orc and my forces are overwhelmed.