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Forteller
11-23-2009, 04:40 PM
Lo guys,

Read the IG codex the other day after a player fielded them in my last tourney and i ve been wondering, IG right, ignore the Russes,the Basilisks the 50 or so conscripts,hell ignore everything, Deploy 3 squads of 2 Vendettas which each have three twin linked lass cannons,assorted sponsors and transport capacity,then drop the vets/command squads from in there via immediate deep strike, Or simply rush in,take +4 cover due to flat out speed,next turn deploy infantry from within and fire lets see,18 twin linked lass cannons and assorted heavy bolters and firepower from 50ish veterans, i know i am not the first person to think of this, and i know for some reason its a bad idea i just cant put my head around it.

Please post feedback and i appreciate your effort...

The AKH
11-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Veteran Air Cav (preferably with lots of Melta) is a perfectly viable tactic. Essentially, it's mech with wings.

The real kicker is that the Valks/Dettas can Scout/Outflank too. Running them 24" on from a short edge and them blowing things up can be brutal.

Shadoq
11-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Problems I see with it:

-You're in squadrons. Damage results are distributed and immobilized=wrecked. Very bad.

-Your max AV is 12 and on the rear 10. With the proliferation of melta and power fists and considering the size of the model it can be a bad day very, very quickly.

Nabterayl
11-23-2009, 05:22 PM
Depending on how the units in question are equipped that can certainly be a viable list. It sounds like you're just looking for some of the structural weaknesses in a list like that, though, so here's a few I can think of:

Vendettas in squadrons are easier to kill than single vehicles, thanks to the squadron damage rules.
Because Vendettas operate in squadrons, they have to move in squadrons. A list that has six Vendettas in two squadrons has only two maneuver units. Even a list that has six Vendettas in three squadrons has only three maneuver units.
Vendettas are slow once they start to shoot. They can only move 6" and fire all three weapons. If they move faster than that, they can still fire one, but that's a very expensive twin-linked lascannon.
Because of their relatively slow combat speed, a Vendetta's surprise deployment options are actually fairly limited. It can move 24" when it deploys (and probably should), but after that, it's either 6" and good firepower or 12" and bad firepower. Stay away from the 30" danger zone and they're just big AV12 skimmers with no hope of getting a cover save.

Forteller
11-23-2009, 05:34 PM
But do ya play them in a mixed army or ya build an army around the fact that they deploy vets,shoot at the dangerous targets,and try to cover the disadvantages of that tactic?

Nabterayl
11-23-2009, 05:37 PM
Either approach works, in my opinion.

Forteller
11-23-2009, 05:40 PM
I guess 3 Basilisks,4 Vendettas and 40 Veterans could be some sort of a working solution,i ll put everything in the front,and if you ignore one of the two threats the other will getcha......

Nabterayl
11-23-2009, 05:48 PM
Presenting multiple threats is always a good thing. The key to a good "feint" in my opinion is not to have any. That is, each separate threat the enemy identifies must be a genuine threat. Otherwise you're counting on your opponent not to see that your feint will actually cause little damage even if left alone. If you have multiple independent real threats, though, each of which in its own way is difficult to counter without committing serious resources, even a smart opponent can be forced into ignoring a unit that will cause him serious harm.

Forteller
11-23-2009, 05:52 PM
Again if considering that the above strategem is correct,do you hold the valkyries/vendettas in reserve and have nothing but 3 basilisks/manticores in the field and wait for deep strike gods to approve or simply have the vendettas at the edge of the table/move flat out get a 4 cover save,and next turn unleash the fury of heavens?

Nabterayl
11-23-2009, 06:05 PM
Depends on what I might be facing once my enemy deploys (of course if he's already deployed, that's much easier to predict!). If I start on the board, am I likely to lose a skimmer or two to long-range enemy fire or drop pods? Because if so, I'm definitely starting off the board. Basilisks might be able to hide behind terrain, but Valkyries can't hide behind much of anything.

Forteller
11-23-2009, 06:12 PM
It does bring out the beauty of an all out "Deep strike" army,you gonna have to force your opponent to come out from hiding before you come out,you deploy when theres nothing on the table but the opponent,as soon as you do you disembark your passangers and open fire with all ya got..............has a bit of an "Obliteratey" feel to it......

Mobious
11-24-2009, 02:10 AM
Problems I see with all those Valks are:

1.) What happens when you hit horde? Lascannons are great and all but they don't do much to covered infantry.

2.) Eggs basket syndrome. We can all see what your theme is and they are technically only three targets so . . . I will punish them with anti-tank and then all your fragile troops are out in the open.

3.) Squadrons can be a pain. Imagine attack bikes in your face turn one, 3+ to hit, 2d6 = 2+ to penetrate (basically), and 3+ to kill. Picture that with Vulkan.

4.) Deep strike? So now you can only shoot one TL-Las (threat nulled), and you will not come in together )most likely). Sure you can dump out and get two melta shots and a single TL-Las but thats not as scary since those are your only troops we are talking about.

5.) Outflank? Go for it, I will wait in the middle of my deployment and watch as you either try to deep strike disembark or what?

Not saying Valks do not work, on the contrary they are amazing. But you need an army to back them up. The way I would run an Air Force alpha strike is with two Vendettas sitting back, and two separate Valks packed with Demo Vets. This way I can scout my Valks 24", pop tanks with TL-Las fire from my lines, pound the discharge with Valk fire and whatever I have behind them, and multi charge whatever stationary tanks are left. Do this and your opponent will be in tears real soon. If your opponent survives that tide, he/she has to deal with the Vets that just caused him/her so much pain, and the Valks still looming around before advancing on to the rest of your force.

I think this would be best. Airplanes are great and all but if you limit yourself to 4 instead of 6, you can buy something like 4 Hydras, giving you a more balanced force. After all who doesn't like balance. Plus if you max out on planes you will not have any money left to bribe your wife, girlfriend, or mother into letting you buy some more toys. Thats like $500-$600 Warren Buffett!! :D

Let me know what you all think.

Forteller
11-24-2009, 02:49 AM
So i guess the trick here is to provide three threats to the enemy, Artillery,Air Squadrons or disembarked Vets, he can choose at max 1-2 out of 3 and that may not bring it down completely. Basilisks for Hordes, Vets for multipurpose,3 Vendettas for monstrous,heroes and vehicles,and 2 Valks for all around gritty work.......i guess it could work nicely in a 1500 point army....

weeble1000
11-24-2009, 09:47 AM
I've seen air cav armies work, but for me, Valks/Vendettas work best in a supporting role rather than the focal point of an army. I usually run two, one valk (rocket pods and multilaser) and one vendetta (3 TL lascannons) and I deploy them very aggressively. Their large profile, prominent flying base, and expansive threat bubble makes them very attractive targets. Additionally, if you put them on opposite sides of the board, your opponent has to start making tough choices.

I run an infantry heavy list, so the valks provide cover and mobility for an otherwise exposed and slow-moving force, and it doesn't take more than a couple to achieve that goal.

The vendetta is slow-moving once you start firing, but with first turn and a scout move you can line that sucker up for nice, side armor shots and force your opponent to take the hits, move away, or deal with the threat. In any case, it helps to keep your opponent off balance.

The Valk is perfect for zipping in, delivering a payload of veterans, and hunting infantry. Rocket pods are defensive weapons, so you can move the Valk 12 inches and still fire everything, although you've only got a 24 inch range. This makes it mobile and dangerous, as long as your opponent has some infantry on the table.

And if you run Valks, remember that extra armor comes with them automatically. Because they'll almost always be out in the open, your Valks can get hammered pretty hard. But if you're transporting vets, shaken isn't that bad of a result on the damage table. Even if you can't fire, you can still drop off your vets AND move flat out for the cover save.

If your Valk has lost its teeth (weapon destroyed results, disembarked passengers) thay are still very useful on the field. They can be used for late game redeployment in a pinch, but I like them best for last minute objective contests. A wounded Valk with no passengers is a much less attractive target, especially if you move it well away from the action. This lets you keep it alive and kicking so you can zoom in on an objective on the last turn or so.

Essentially, I like to see Valks zooming around the battlefield and distressing my opponent while the meat of the army does its work.

zealot
11-24-2009, 01:59 PM
I use a Valk w/MRP's and Heavy Bolters for support. I do what weeble does but usually with no passengers. It just shoots a ton.

RocketRollRebel
11-24-2009, 02:06 PM
I've seen air cav armies work, but for me, Valks/Vendettas work best in a supporting role rather than the focal point of an army. I usually run two, one valk (rocket pods and multilaser) and one vendetta (3 TL lascannons) and I deploy them very aggressively. Their large profile, prominent flying base, and expansive threat bubble makes them very attractive targets. Additionally, if you put them on opposite sides of the board, your opponent has to start making tough choices.

I run an infantry heavy list, so the valks provide cover and mobility for an otherwise exposed and slow-moving force, and it doesn't take more than a couple to achieve that goal.

The vendetta is slow-moving once you start firing, but with first turn and a scout move you can line that sucker up for nice, side armor shots and force your opponent to take the hits, move away, or deal with the threat. In any case, it helps to keep your opponent off balance.

The Valk is perfect for zipping in, delivering a payload of veterans, and hunting infantry. Rocket pods are defensive weapons, so you can move the Valk 12 inches and still fire everything, although you've only got a 24 inch range. This makes it mobile and dangerous, as long as your opponent has some infantry on the table.

And if you run Valks, remember that extra armor comes with them automatically. Because they'll almost always be out in the open, your Valks can get hammered pretty hard. But if you're transporting vets, shaken isn't that bad of a result on the damage table. Even if you can't fire, you can still drop off your vets AND move flat out for the cover save.

If your Valk has lost its teeth (weapon destroyed results, disembarked passengers) thay are still very useful on the field. They can be used for late game redeployment in a pinch, but I like them best for last minute objective contests. A wounded Valk with no passengers is a much less attractive target, especially if you move it well away from the action. This lets you keep it alive and kicking so you can zoom in on an objective on the last turn or so.

Essentially, I like to see Valks zooming around the battlefield and distressing my opponent while the meat of the army does its work.

This is the exact same set up I use except in a mech vet army and it does wonders. It almost guarantees that your opponent is going to loose an important vehicle or two on turn one.

weeble1000
11-24-2009, 02:34 PM
@Zealot - I don't like to use hvy bolters on my valks. I think it looks cool, and I modeled mine with gunners, but it seems like too much of a point investment to me. In order to use the bolters, you've got to limit the valk's movement to 6 inches, and I like the rocket pods because they allow greater mobility. The pods are the real killers on a Valk, in my opinion, and they need a 12 inch move to keep their threat bubble nice and big. I don't think I'd use the bolters enough to justify the added point investment.

j-orge-287
11-24-2009, 02:39 PM
I got a vendetta and I just use one. Drop it in on the flank-pop open the side armour of the nearest vehicle etc.
Some times I even have stormtroopers jumping out verses horde

DakkaVulture
11-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Why hide if you can dakka something? I bring a ForgeWorld Vulture with TL Punishers and it eats 'stealers and warriors for breakfast :D

RocketRollRebel
11-24-2009, 05:56 PM
The valk is one of the many new things that make the new IG codex shine all around. It gave the guard ridiculous mobility, even more dakka and made it cheap. I'm not sure how well an all air cav list would work since it seems to me that squading up you valks/vendettas hurts mobility since you are going to need a lot of room to maneuver them around the table.

All in all a great accessory to your army but it needs other parts to be truly optimized.

mercer
11-26-2009, 06:48 AM
One good tactic is when you get first turn. Using the scout rule turbo boost the valkyrie, then in your first turn move again and drop in melta vets. If you move 6" you can still fire, if its a vendetta you and wreck two tanks a turn including the melta vets. If you feel lucky, perhaps the melta vets charge and may give a unit a good kicking in close combat too.