Cauldron of Blood clarifications

[Wildeybeast]

1) If I make a Death Hag my BSB, they can still be mounted on a CoB right?
2) What units can the cauldron of blood join? The rules say it joins units in the same manner as a character, but the character rules say characters riding chariots can't join units. I'm assuming that rule is overridden, but how? Can it join the units normally allowed to characters (e.g. can I put it in with my cold one knights?). As a chariot, can I also join it to other chariots?

[Mr Mystery]

1) If I make a Death Hag my BSB, they can still be mounted on a CoB right?
2) What units can the cauldron of blood join? The rules say it joins units in the same manner as a character, but the character rules say characters riding chariots can't join units. I'm assuming that rule is overridden, but how? Can it join the units normally allowed to characters (e.g. can I put it in with my cold one knights?). As a chariot, can I also join it to other chariots?

1. Would need to check me book, but yes. BSB normally only has restricted magic item access if they take a magicky flag.

2. Any unit in the same manner as a character, meaning if the bases don't quite fit, it would have to sit off to one side on it's own, and thus not only look rubbish, but be in a vulnerable position.

2 a) It can't join Chariots, as they don't come in a unit.

[Wildeybeast]

2. Actually it goes in the centre of the front rank according to the cob rules. I'm assuming that overrides the normal rules on character base sizes.

2a. But a chariot on its own is a unit and characters can join units even if they consist of one model can't they? Normally characters can't join chariot units but the cob seems to overrule the normal 'unit joining' rules as it is a character riding a chariot which can join units. Also it is a chariot. Hence my confusion.

[Kevin Boyd]

Think it is treated the same as a Skaven Furnace or Bell

[Chronowraith]

Yes and No. Skaven Bell and Furnace aren't chariots and are made a little easier because they have their wording spelled out more specifically in their text and in the unbreakable portions of the BRB.

As for the Cauldron it attaches to standard units like a character (standard being infantry, monstrous infantry, cavalry, and monstrous cavalry). Characters can't join chariot units if I recall so therefore it can't join chariot units.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm sorry if I'm being thick here, but I still don't understand how it works. You're are correct chrono in saying characters can't join chariot units, but surely a character riding a chariot can (which is what the cob is) can join chariot units? Furthermore, if we hold to the restriction that characters can't join chariot units, surely we have to hold to the other restrictions about characters riding chariots not being able to join units, which would mean that the cob can't join any units. The cob rules say that it joins units in the same fashion as a character, but they don't mention anything about what sort of character type we treating it is. Are we assuming it is an infantry character (as the character rules do) or does it remain a character riding a chariot?

[Chronowraith]

A character riding a chariot cannot join a chariot unit because a character cannot join chariots. The ONLY exception to this are TOmb Kings who have explicit rules that cover this in their rulebook.

A character riding a chariot can join other units as there is no restriction about chariots joining units, just the other way around (no characters joining chariots).

So a Cauldron of Blood, being treated as a character, can join Cavalry, Infantry, Warbeasts and their monstrous varieties but not other unit types like chariots, war machines, monsters, or unique units. Furthermore... non-character units can't join units which is why you can't take two chariots out of a WoC or DE book and run them as a single unit. Units must adhere to the unit sizes that constrain them in their rulebooks. If the unit size is 1... then that is the maximum and minimum size.

[Wildeybeast]

Ok, I didn't realise tk had a special rule for that. But the rules explicitly state that characters riding chariots cannot join other units (p97), so raw would mean it in fact can't join any units. So is it a chariot, a character riding a chariot or a character?

[Chronowraith]

Army books trump basic rulebook though. The DE book says it can join units as if it were a character so I'd interpret that as, "for the purposes of determining whether it can join a unit don't consider it a chariot, consider it a character". So it wouldn't be a chariot, or a character riding a chariot, it would be a character and thus could join infantry, cavalry, warbeasts, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, and monstrous warbeasts (do these even exist?)

The Tomb King special rule is pretty comical... a Tomb King riding a chariot can join a chariot unit and then, if his chariot is destroyed, can stay in the chariot unit. I'm sure the king would be happy that his minions are riding around in their undead pimp-mobiles while he's hoofing it towards the enemy. I'd say heads would roll but... that's just terrible.

[Wildeybeast]

I guess that makes sense. The rules are pretty badly written for it, which is kind of surprising given everything else in the book is fairly straightforward.

Edit: another question that came up the other day; does it count as a model for rank purposes? So if I have two models on both sides of it, do I have 5 models and thus a rank? I would if it were an infantry character, so I'm assuming yes, but I'm not sure. If it does, would it count for every rank it fills or just the first one?

[Chronowraith]

Since the placement rules say to treat it like a character... I'd say, "yes, it counts as having been filled in by rank and file troops for the entire base of the cauldron". This is even stated on page 98 of the BRB under "different sized bases" Since the chariot base fits nicely in with 20mm base footprints then you should be good to go.

Nonetheless, I agree that it's poorly worded and leaves too much room for misinterpretation.

[Wildeybeast]

Those were my thoughts too. Thanks for the help Chrono.

[Mr Mystery]

Army books trump basic rulebook though. The DE book says it can join units as if it were a character so I'd interpret that as, "for the purposes of determining whether it can join a unit don't consider it a chariot, consider it a character". So it wouldn't be a chariot, or a character riding a chariot, it would be a character and thus could join infantry, cavalry, warbeasts, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, and monstrous warbeasts (do these even exist?)

The Tomb King special rule is pretty comical... a Tomb King riding a chariot can join a chariot unit and then, if his chariot is destroyed, can stay in the chariot unit. I'm sure the king would be happy that his minions are riding around in their undead pimp-mobiles while he's hoofing it towards the enemy. I'd say heads would roll but... that's just terrible.

Mostly stops him being auto-ejected from the unit, which can leave your very expensive, and somewhat crumbly boss man out on his own. Also prevents him be launched out of a combat mid-pagga. So it's a slightly clunky rule, but arguably the best way to resolve it overall.

[Wildeybeast]

Having read the CoB rules again, I don't think it does count as a model for rank purposes. The rules state it does use any other character rules, it only joins them like a character, so the character rules about different sized bases counting as models for ranks wouldn't apply. I think it just sits there getting in the way.