PDA

View Full Version : Tau tactics



Rustbucket3437
11-26-2009, 01:31 PM
This is how kroot should be run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5vIIUwnvs

and unless you have 9+ vehicles running at them on your first turn, chances are you won't be tank shocking them when facing a properly built Tau list.

Thoughts?

slxiii
11-26-2009, 04:38 PM
I love Kroot. This isn't how I would ever use them. It's a very restrictive tactic, and it assumes your opponent is unable to circumvent it.

DarkLink
11-26-2009, 06:02 PM
It would work well against some armies, not so much against others. IG couldn't care less about a wall of Kroot.

slxiii
11-26-2009, 06:48 PM
It would work well against some armies, not so much against others. IG couldn't care less about a wall of Kroot.

IG shoot over them or template them to death. Eldar/Tau/Dark Eldar fly over them and ignore them. Space marines tank shock through them with mass rhinos or a land raider. The idea that this screen will stop any assault is a bit laughable, as half the damn kroot are hanging out of the forest.picture two squads of ork boyz zip up and disembark as close to the kroot as possible, one on the left and another on the right. ork boyz on right attack closest squad, the kroot must pile in towards them 6", leaving a gap for the other orks to assault on the left. neither squad of kroot strikes first because no difficult terrain will be necessary for the orks to assault the exposed half of the squad. kroot are wiped out before striking, leaving the Tau army relatively defenseless, and at least 140 points down the sink with min squads of kroot.

DarkLink
11-26-2009, 08:34 PM
IG shoot over them or template them to death. Eldar/Tau/Dark Eldar fly over them and ignore them. Space marines tank shock through them with mass rhinos or a land raider. The idea that this screen will stop any assault is a bit laughable, as half the damn kroot are hanging out of the forest.picture two squads of ork boyz zip up and disembark as close to the kroot as possible, one on the left and another on the right. ork boyz on right attack closest squad, the kroot must pile in towards them 6", leaving a gap for the other orks to assault on the left. neither squad of kroot strikes first because no difficult terrain will be necessary for the orks to assault the exposed half of the squad. kroot are wiped out before striking, leaving the Tau army relatively defenseless, and at least 140 points down the sink with min squads of kroot.

All attacker's assault moves are concluded before the defenders react, so what you propose is impossible for orks to do. You would have to either manage to sneak a squad past the front line of kroot to be able to assault the second line, or to wait until next turn.

Rustbucket3437
11-26-2009, 08:56 PM
Good points about some armys not caring. But the point though is for them to stop assaults, not something I'd really be worried about when facing IG/another Tau/Dark Eldar (unless fighting a wytch cult army where those would be the first raiders to go.) Facing those armys makes the game become a shooting match.

Try getting 2 land raiders to the kroot, there are usually 4 railguns and 2 pirahnas with your name on them for 2 turns of shooting and even deathrain suits shoud be enough to take care of rihnos.

The point is for them to be out of the woods. That's how they stop assaults.

It's definetly not the end all of stoppings assault tactics but it works rather well once you get it down.

Old_Paladin
11-26-2009, 09:21 PM
kroot are wiped out before striking.

I don't see how that'll happen from orks; as kroot and charging orks are equal init.
In fact, a smart kroot player will pack in some hounds for the pair of attacks at init.5 that each have.

slxiii
11-26-2009, 10:39 PM
All attacker's assault moves are concluded before the defenders react, so what you propose is impossible for orks to do. You would have to either manage to sneak a squad past the front line of kroot to be able to assault the second line, or to wait until next turn.

ah, my mistake. Don't have my rulebook on me at the moment. Regardless, any time orks get that close to the bulk of your army, you're not doing too hot.

Chumbalaya
11-27-2009, 09:29 AM
Any time Orks get close to a Tau army, something has gone horribly wrong (poor rolling or play on the Tau player's part typically). Kroot murder Orks on the charge, or when they sit pretty in cover.

Kroot and Piranhas are all about delaying the assault, keeping the enemy away for another turn so they can keep shooting. As a delaying tactic, it works pretty well. If it isn't applicable to your army, they can block DSers, block assaults other ways (sitting 1" away from vehicles) or just be annoying on objectives with 2+ cover.

toomanyarmies
12-01-2009, 06:30 PM
Not too bad a tactic. It'll buy the Tau a little time. That's all. I like to use my Kroot on kamikazi outflanking runs. They're allies, they're meant to die.

pacopaco
12-09-2009, 11:01 PM
Kroot can put you in a world of hurt. It's been done to me. If you don't have any Kroot. Stand back and shoot. Broadsides are good too. I've Land Raiders blown up along with everyone inside it. :mad: it sucks.

BuFFo
12-10-2009, 01:01 AM
Eh, its an alright tactic. Waaaay to situational.

eagleboy7259
12-10-2009, 04:18 PM
The most common use I've seen for Kroot is Kroot Circles. For 70pts you take 10 of them and literally just circle them up in coherency near the center of the board. Forces all enemy infiltrators to the sides. Then send them to ground and they become a nice little 70pt speed bump.

Mobious
12-11-2009, 11:09 PM
Superb tactic, its actually the reason I am dying to create a Tau army. I am confused with a couple replies though.

How exactly is this being circumvented?
Why is it situational?
How are those Eldar/DE skimmers landing in that 3/4 inch window?

The way I see it, two walls of Kroot stop a hell of a lot. Adding on to what Chum said, Deep Strikes, Assaults, and Melta ranges are all denied to the enemy. Not once but twice. No only that but the effects of those cute disruption pods are exploited even further now, because if you place your Kroot correctly, you will not be able to get in that 12' range. Tanks shocking through and dropping meltas doesn't really work either because the second wall of Kroot can be placed to stop you from disembarking within melta range.

Along with protecting vehicles, Kroot stand in front of your suits, forcing you to shoot through and grant them a 4+. If you choose to fire on the Kroot then good for the Tau, now the suits are safe and you'll have to get through the 2+ save on the Kroot. The tactic is still very much valid without woods too.

How do you expect to beat a Tau army that has some of the best anti-tank/anti-infantry options while they are protected by expendable Kroot. I my opinion, these tactics are what make Tau one of the game's strongest armies.

10 Fire Knives
34 Kroot/Hounds
12 Pathfinders
1 Piranha squad
2 Railheads
1 Broadsides squad

That kind of firepower and mobility when combined with the correct tactical use of bubble wrap Kroot, is a recipe for competitiveness.

DarkLink
12-12-2009, 12:21 AM
Tanks shocking through and dropping meltas doesn't really work either because the second wall of Kroot can be placed to stop you from disembarking within melta range.


Tank Shocks can go straight through both lines, especially if the lines are as close together as this tactic requires. In addition, this is only really useful against certain assaulty armies. Any shooty army, like IG, will just lob barrages over the kroot. Most assault armies can tank shock through, or have at least a little shooting to blow gaps in the first line of kroot, allowing them to assault the second squad as well. The kroot then have to consolidate inwards, so next turn the Tau are unprotected. It's not a useless tactic, but it's certainly not unbeatable.

Lerra
12-12-2009, 12:57 AM
This is just one tool in a big toolbox. Kroot are one of the more tactically flexible units in the game - a cheap scoring unit with infiltrate that can provide a speedbump or a screen. Hounds make pretty decent marine killers, too. Locally, there are a lot of drop pods, assault daemons, infiltrators, etc, and Kroot are a great way to make those player's armies a bit less effective.

Mobious
12-12-2009, 01:41 PM
Tank Shocks can go straight through both lines, especially if the lines are as close together as this tactic requires. In addition, this is only really useful against certain assaulty armies. Any shooty army, like IG, will just lob barrages over the kroot. Most assault armies can tank shock through, or have at least a little shooting to blow gaps in the first line of kroot, allowing them to assault the second squad as well. The kroot then have to consolidate inwards, so next turn the Tau are unprotected. It's not a useless tactic, but it's certainly not unbeatable.

The thing with tank shocking to disembark and shoot meltas (or whatever else), is this. You need to drive through far enough to stop the Kroot from just circling your access port and stopping you from getting out. And if the second Kroot wall is in the right position then you still can't do that. Rhinos are 5" long, so you need get 3" of it through, then disembark 2" and do that without being with 1" of the second wall. So if my Kroot are about 5" apart; and if the back line is 4"/5" away from my vehicles then how exactly are you delivering your meltas? Especially when you have to declare how far you are moving first.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that only certain assault armies are affected by this. You aren't tank shocking and disembarking like I already said, and if you just sit in your transport and wait for the next turn to get out and assault then that won't work either. Kroot and firepower all around you, plus thats just another round your are not shooting. If you shoot at the Kroot then good for you, they are taking shots for the Suits/Sides/Pathfinders. And the casualties I take will be from my table edge, still leaving the wall intact.

Most shooting armies don't have IG rules and not every IG vehicle has barrage rules. And those that do will definitely be targeted--4 pathfinder supported Railguns (2 TL) are going to hurt.

The whole idea is the Kroot to eat shots/assaults while the rest of the army unloads. It definitely is not unbeatable and there are ways to of getting around it. But the point is that it is extremely effective, adapts to different circumstances, and is what makes Tau great.

Old_Paladin
12-12-2009, 06:30 PM
The thing with tank shocking to disembark and shoot meltas (or whatever else), is this. You need to drive through far enough to stop the Kroot from just circling your access port and stopping you from getting out. And if the second Kroot wall is in the right position then you still can't do that. Rhinos are 5" long, so you need get 3" of it through, then disembark 2" and do that without being with 1" of the second wall. So if my Kroot are about 5" apart; and if the back line is 4"/5" away from my vehicles then how exactly are you delivering your meltas? Especially when you have to declare how far you are moving first.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that only certain assault armies are affected by this. You aren't tank shocking and disembarking like I already said, and if you just sit in your transport and wait for the next turn to get out and assault then that won't work either. Kroot and firepower all around you, plus thats just another round your are not shooting. If you shoot at the Kroot then good for you, they are taking shots for the Suits/Sides/Pathfinders. And the casualties I take will be from my table edge, still leaving the wall intact.

Most shooting armies don't have IG rules and not every IG vehicle has barrage rules. And those that do will definitely be targeted--4 pathfinder supported Railguns (2 TL) are going to hurt.

The whole idea is the Kroot to eat shots/assaults while the rest of the army unloads. It definitely is not unbeatable and there are ways to of getting around it. But the point is that it is extremely effective, adapts to different circumstances, and is what makes Tau great.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.
The Kroot will almost never be able to surround a vehicle after the tank shock; unless you're done a really poor job of it, and the shortest path out of the way is to be near the only exits.
Against orks or dark eldar (whose vehicles are both fast and open-topped), they can get 12-13 inch tank shocks (with the proper upgrades), and deploy anywhere within 2 inches of any part of the vehicle; they will almost always be able to break or hop the kroot walls and still charge into combat with whatever target they desire.
Most people won't shot the kroot even if the wall is in the way (most Tau targets have a 3+ or 2+ armour anyways, 4+ cover doesn't matter). Rhinos have 3 potential exits (left/right/back) most marines will be able to deploy on the opposite side that the kroot were forced to shuffle to.

I'm not trying to say Kroot are bad, or this tactic will never work; I'm just saying that most armies have methods to over-come it.
Those tactics won't work all the time; if I've misguessed the distance, it's easy to become stuck within the two lines. Not everyone will have fast, open-topped, shockable transports with assault troops.

Mobious
12-12-2009, 08:06 PM
Its hard to describe what I mean without actually showing everyone, but I'll do my best and then you can tell me if I am wrong or not.

Lets say you place your two walls of Kroot 5" away from each other and the back line is 4" away from your vehicles and suits. If they are tank shocked and pass, they have to take the shortest route out of the way, either making a semi circle around the front or back. If you don't move far enough through the Kroot (at least 3" which is half of the Rhino). To avoid this you tank shock half your rhino through them (at least 3"). Then you have to disembark 10 men within 2" and still be 1" away from the second wall--which is impossible because the Kroot are 5" apart so you can''t get out.

And as far as Ork trukks go, you need the upgrade to tank shock and then you needs to dump out 12 boyz in coherency. Meaning they cannot get out on the front or back because thats where the two Kroot are, so you have to pick either the right or left. Not sure if yo can fit 12 models on one side of a Trukk without being with 1" of the Kroot, but I would figure you cannot. Even if you do, you are still only assaulting Kroot, wiping them out and getting torrented next turn. In the end this is all assuming your AV 10 open-topped Trukks even make it through massed S 6/7 shots without dying horribly.

As far as DE go, why are they close to me? How are they going to live the incoming fire? And once again you can't Shock and get out with my lines.

"Most Tau targets have a 3+ or 2+ armour anyways, 4+ cover doesn't matter."

You mean having a 4+ against the high strength low AP weapons that instant kill Tau two wound models is not good? What happens when Lascannons/Battle Cannons or anything like them hit my suits?

"Rhinos have 3 potential exits (left/right/back) most marines will be able to deploy on the opposite side that the kroot were forced to shuffle to."

I am not sure where they are getting out when--like I said-- there are Kroot in front and in back. You can't fit 10 models on one side of the tank without being within 1" of the Kroot. And if its less than 10 men, then I'll expect it and tighten the Kroot up.

If I am wrong, I am wrong, but I don't see how tanks are Shocking and getting through when their are either some of the 34 Kroot or 10 suits on the front lines.

Old_Paladin
12-12-2009, 10:34 PM
I think you're also assuming someone being a little stupid and tank shocking right into the middle of your set up; instead on hitting you in the side (ie. a flank attack). In which case, a lot of your measures or theories don't work.
Or Multi-shocking; If I tank Shock you with one tank, then tank shock you with a second one a little further down your line then your kroot either have to move further on down the line to make room [pulling you off that first tank] (or I could also come up behind my own vehicle; I automatically stop with one inch; but you have to move totally out of the way (by shortest distance) while maintaining consistancy). And most mech builds are going to have enough tanks to pull this off.
I think those trukks are going to make it; I mean, a upgraded trukk with boyz and a Nob is less then 150 points it's not going to be hard to pack in several of them, plus some bigger squads in Wagons and Nobs in wagons and they'll have the 4+ save from the KFF.

Again, I'm not saying that these is a worthless tactic; it will buy you an extra round of shooting. But its not like it's going to gain you the three extra turns of protection.
Now, if the Shaper could pack an eveserator or powerfist (or krootox were cheaper); you might stand a chance at blocking a tank shock.

DarkLink
12-12-2009, 11:32 PM
The thing with tank shocking to disembark and shoot meltas (or whatever else), is this. You need to drive through far enough to stop the Kroot from just circling your access port and stopping you from getting out. And if the second Kroot wall is in the right position then you still can't do that. Rhinos are 5" long, so you need get 3" of it through, then disembark 2" and do that without being with 1" of the second wall. So if my Kroot are about 5" apart; and if the back line is 4"/5" away from my vehicles then how exactly are you delivering your meltas? Especially when you have to declare how far you are moving first.


Land Raiders. Anyways, if the two lines are 5" apart, then there's room to deploy between them. While this won't get melta in range, it does mean that someone can drive up with their first wave and break up the Kroot in order to let the second wave through.



I am not sure what you mean when you say that only certain assault armies are affected by this. You aren't tank shocking and disembarking like I already said, and if you just sit in your transport and wait for the next turn to get out and assault then that won't work either. Kroot and firepower all around you, plus thats just another round your are not shooting. If you shoot at the Kroot then good for you, they are taking shots for the Suits/Sides/Pathfinders. And the casualties I take will be from my table edge, still leaving the wall intact.


I'm not saying they aren't effected at all, just that they have means of getting around it that aren't too far-fetched.



The whole idea is the Kroot to eat shots/assaults while the rest of the army unloads. It definitely is not unbeatable and there are ways to of getting around it. But the point is that it is extremely effective, adapts to different circumstances, and is what makes Tau great.

I don't disagree with anything here.

Mobious
12-13-2009, 12:42 AM
Not sure what you mean by shocking the "side" cause the way I would set up, the measurements would all be consistent. I am not saying there is no way through it. My point is that its a pain to deal with, thus distracting opponents, eating shos/assaults or utterly stopping people who don't know how to deal. Once again this is why tau are so great; like Guard they can use bubble wrap tactics, but unlike guard they can have two of these units which infiltrate and are decent at CC. Ultimately, Kroot can stop any opponent from getting into assault, melta range, and within disrupt pod range for at least ONE turn. After which all guns are blazing!!

And thats why I love Tau. No other army can pull off the tricky **** they do. Name one other race that can delay SOME opponents from reaching their line for up to 3 turns:

Piranhas

First Kroot

Second Kroot

MarshalAdamar
12-15-2009, 05:38 PM
There is one thing to think about in this situation, dedicated assault troops will not be held up by this tactic and may indeed be accelerated in some instances.

You’re also assuming that murdering 300 points of Kroot is not a worthy objective for a unit of assaulter? Stripping away any and all assault cover from your army.

I play Black Templar’s and my favorite thing in this world is a poorly placed bait unit.

Assault units of substantial size don’t need to get through the line, assault the first rank and murder it, then take your cover save against any shooting that might by pass your 3+ armor since there are another row of kroot in the way, murder them and move on to the next line. They have to either charge you (and lose more than likely) then run away leaving the door open to a massacre move or wait and get charged and definitely lose.

Let’s use the Land raider example and some Templar’s

Here's the best case scenario the Kroot are in the middle of the field using infiltrate I would assume.

So starting at the front of the deployment zone there is only 24 inches to the opponent’s deployment zone

Templar turn one move Raider 12 “(Now they are half way across the board)

Disembark 2” and assault 6” now we’ve covered 20 of the 24 inch buffer.

The templar’s will have 45 attacks +/-, hit 30 and wound 15 to 20 depending on kroot toughness. That’s 15 to 20 dead kroot, they’ll either fail ld and run or be wiped out and give the assault guys ANOTHER d6” movement which could put them on your door step 7 to 12” closer than they would have been had there not been a unit to assault.

I write this because I’ve played against Tau in tourneys and on several occasions’ attempts to tar pit the larger crusader squads with Kroot met with disaster.

Here’s the math hammer on it. IF you put a speed bump unit out there it’s supposed to form a barrier in front of your static troops so that the assaulters have to get shot, assault the speed bump and then get shot again before they can assault.

BUT using the Kroot that far forward the tactic is not very effective FOR THAT PURPOSE. I can’t reach the fire warriors on turn one, so the speed bump doesn’t slow me down, it gives me extra movement. And for assault based armies movement is everything.

As an assault based army I’ll assault just about anything to gain extra movement so just know that the unit you put out there to tie up your opponent could end up helping him.

Heaven forbid the Kroot survive and stick around another turn, the assault guys are safe from Tau shooting and Kroot will certainly be wiped out in the Tau assault phase.

So it’s a good tactic for some but not for units like blood claws, Crusader squads or Death Company that can deal out massive damage that the 6+ armor Kroot just can’t take.

Your tactic is still a viable tactic just be aware when playing an army that can exploit it. Also with the pile in rule, it may be that your Kroot cannot get with in 2” of a model that is in BTB with the attacker if they are spread out all over the board. Meaning even less attacks for the unit that is not going to inflict much damage as it is.

DarkLink
12-15-2009, 06:23 PM
BT's are a good example of an Assault army that can beat this tactic. They're almost helped by it. Thanks to Righteous Zeal and some of their special abilities, they'll probably be able to assault the Kroot by the end of the first turn, if they went second, or at the top of the second turn. They'll easily wipe out all the Kroot, and the rest of the Tau army ends up trapped in a corner, unable to run. It's hard to kill enough of the BT's with only two rounds of shooting, and giving them anything to assault only helps them get in your face faster than they otherwise could.

Mobious
12-16-2009, 12:43 AM
I don't know why you are assuming that the Kroot will be 20" away from you if I see Land Raiders lined up on your deployment edge. Also since when are the Kroot supposed to tarpit you or even assault you? The way I see it is if my Kroot can't kill the unit in front of them, then they don't charge. I let you assault me, and then laugh as you wipe the Kroot and leave yourself out and exposed.

Not sure why you think you are getting cover. The second line of Kroot won't do it for you, seeing as Suits can fly over/Vehicles see over/Pathfinders laugh at cover.

You won't last to 20 AP 2 Plasma shots and 20 missle pods that are backed by two groups of Pathfinders--not only eliminating any chance of a cover save, but increasing my chance to hit.

If something lives then the second Kroot encircle you (only assaulting if you are too weak to survive and only if there isn't a second unit I need to slow), forcing you to assault them in order to get through and repeating what just happened. And as far as losing 300 points of Kroot, its only 200 points and yes I am willing to lose 200 victory points if it leaves you exposed to the full weight of my fire power. If you rejoice in wiping my Kroot then you are delusional.

I WANT them to die to assault. Wiping them out does not help you, it hurts you. Contrary to want you guys think, I think that this tactic works best against BT's and armies of the like. I play BA and I don't want to see two walls of Kroot used to crap on my Assault.

Turn 1: You are not assaulting. Against BT (or the equivalent), I line up on my edge keeping the Kroot and everything else as far away from your assault as possible. Then on my turn the Kroot run forward to wait for your assault, and leave some extra space for my army to move around.

Turn 2:You assault the expendable Kroot because you cannot get to the rest. You proceed to wipe out the 6+ save Kroot because they are not supposed to survive. Then my turn comes and you are facing massive amounts of fire power from the Suits/Heads/Fish/FW. At the end I run my remaining Kroot to encircle whatever you have left (not assault).

Turn 3:If you magically got to my second line of Kroot and are now in the face of my Suits and vehicles with the dwindling amount of units you have left (due to superior firepower), then Tau mobility comes into play. A 12" jetpack move to get 12" away from you on a flank, followed by rapid fire, and a 6" assault, keeps me out of assault range next run.

And thats all assuming you rolled first turn, and are somehow able to disembark in the 2"/3" you have between the Kroot.

I'll say it again, the Kroot are 4"/5" away from each other, leaving you only able to disembark from one side of their transport--as I explained earlier on. Now please educate me on how you are getting an entire squad to get out in that 2"/3 window. It just doesn't work, plus the suits will probably also be in that 4"/5" window. Leaving them 1" from the sides of your desperate transport, and stopping your ability to get out.

If what I am saying isn't clear then it never will be and I will stop. I have put all of the information here. You cannot assault my firepower, because of the 34 Kroot in front. You cannot assault the second Kroot because you cannot get out within the two lines. The only hope is that you can fry the Kroot with shots, hope they run, then have some other units get through to the second wall. Do this and you reduce the delay, but now you are killing my Kroot (what I want you to do) and not killing my Suits (the real threat).

Have you played against a list like this, using these tactics?

DarkLink
12-16-2009, 03:44 AM
I don't know why you are assuming that the Kroot will be 20" away from you if I see Land Raiders lined up on your deployment edge. Also since when are the Kroot supposed to tarpit you or even assault you? The way I see it is if my Kroot can't kill the unit in front of them, then they don't charge. I let you assault me, and then laugh as you wipe the Kroot and leave yourself out and exposed.


I once saw a BT unit with first turn get within 9" of the enemy board edge by their second movement phase, thanks to Righteous zeal and all that. And that was a footslogging unit. The only reason why they didn't get to assault the units on the back board edge was due to a failed difficult terrain test that assault phase.

And I never said anything about Kroot tarpitting or assaulting. What we said is that sometimes, a speedbump unit can actually be used to slingshot forward faster than the unit could normally go. Getting to make that assault move effectively adds 6" + d6 (consolidation) on to the unit's normal movement. The first squad of Kroot aren't slowing the BT down at all. They're speeding them up.

Mobious
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
What I was saying is that the extra movement you get does not matter, because its not letting you get into assault. You wipe out the first Kroot second turn, then you get smacked by Plasma. Whatever squad lives will only righteous zeal into the second Kroot, and not into the real force of the army. Then on your turn you wipe out the second Kroot, and are in the open again and facing Plasma and other ridiculous fire power AGAIN.

I don't care if you get extra movement because you are not assaulting my Crisis Suits/Broadsides/Pathfinders with it, only my Kroot. No one has addressed how they plan to avoid wiping out the Kroot and leaving themselves open to all of this firepower.

MarshalAdamar
12-21-2009, 03:47 PM
Your plan seems to be predicated on being assaulted with one unit of assaulters.

One unit of assaulters assaults the far end of one kroot squad; this pulls that unit 6" away leaving a hole to charge another unit of assaulters into the second line of kroot.

And you’re assuming that the assaulters don't shoot up the kroot lines to get them to break

20 marines with BP shoot = 20 shots> 15 hits = 10 dead kroot who have to make a test or run so you do that with both squads and you have the front whole kroot line down Turn 2, assault the other kroot with one unit and I'm into your army on templar turn 2 or 3.

Also remember that zeal with a chaplain attached can zeal towards ANY enemy unit so you can use it move sideways as long you end up "closer" to the enemy than you started.

so you Zeal left to get ready to assault the units behind the kroot, the other unit shoots (maybe breaking) the kroot then assaults, pulling the kroot out of the other units way so they can assault behind them.

I've SEEN this tactic used, it’s just another version of the speed bump tactic. But you HAVE to keep all your units nice and close or the assaulters go around you’re screening your whole army so you’re open to being mulit assaulted

Believe me when I say that marines and BT in particular can take the punishment for two rounds and have plenty left over to scrap a Tau army. 20 man crusader squads are brutal to try and shoot up.

MarshalAdamar
12-21-2009, 03:54 PM
I would have to agree with DarkLink. I play BT and I have fought just about every variation of the Tau. And he's what it comes down to.

In a 1500 point game, I’m going to field a land raider crusader full of assault troops and run two 20 man squads of crusaders, one led by a chaplain with three cenobite servitors and a drop pod dread with mm and HF

So let’s say I get the first turn.

There is a 24” buffer to your deployment zone, and lets say you stay back from that just in case.

TEMPLAR TURN 1

LR moves 12 and pops smoke (for BT that’s all pens downgraded to glances)

Chaplain’s crusader squad and the Emperor Champs squads move 6” run 3” so they are 15” away from your deployment zone.

TAU TURN 1

You shoot at the LR (good luck) it will more than likely survive and be mobile
(Smoke + extra armor)

You shoot the crusader squads for some casualties, and they zeal. The Champs squad moves another 4” to be only 11” away and the chaplain’s squad moves 7” to be only 8” away.

TEMPLAR TURN 2

LR moves 12” and threatens anything with in 8” of the front of your deployment zone so unless your forces are 4” from your board edge kroot unit one is dead and I have an average consolidation of 3” to threaten anything in your deployment zone.

LR opens up with AC on whatever is convenient.

Chaplain’s squad and Champs squad move 6” and run 3” and are now at or in your deployment zone

Squad one with emperors champ is 5” from the deployment zone and Chaplains squad is 1” inside the zone

TAU TURN 2

Tau can inflict some damage but there is a trade off, FW need to rapid fire to heap on the damage but that puts them in assault range so if they do they die. Battle suits would have scooted out of range (maybe), Suits fire with plasma and missiles. I take plasma on neophytes and servitors and save 3+ vs. missiles and get another set of zeal moves

EC unit Zeals 4” to threaten whatever needs killing in the Templar turn

Chaplain uses 7” zeal move to move to assault the battle suits (or whatever).

TEMPLAR TURN 3

All hell breaks loose.

Even if you have killed 28 models in two turns (that’s 84 wounds roughly)

There are 30 + assault troops in your deployment zone killing everything they can get their hands on. Depending on where you deployed the Tau are getting backed into a corner, the templar squads are spread out to the max to make sure the skimmers can’t move over them because they can’t land on the other side of the crusader squads.

Drop pod with dread is likely to land and wreak even more havoc.

Chaplain’s squad charges and destroys some fire warriors or even some suits that just can’t get far enough away.

EC squad destroys the pathfinders and whatever else I can multi assault

If you have two full kroot units and two full fire warrior squads AND path finders AND a hammer head I’ve killed just about everything in your army.

The path finders if they are marking for the army would either have to leave or laz targets to the bitter end (for them Turn 2 most likely, killed by the LR squad but they might make it to turn 3)

But by the beginning of your turn 3

Both Kroot squads are dead, one or more of the FW squads are dead

And maybe a unit of suits or a tank are dead too.

TAU TURN 3

Most significant resistance is dead or fleeing, some suits still hop around roasting marines with plasma.

Devil fish are floating around shooting at stuff. But the Tau force is gutted; now it’s just a matter of can I destroy the devil fish with melta guns and power fists and just massed attacks?

But the Templars are in no position to lose the game.

Now there are casualties, no doubt, marker lights would bump up the tau shooting or lower cover saves let say you go BONZO and Kill 25 models and the Land raider by your turn 3 (that’s two turn of Tau shooting) not likely. BUT if you did.

That leaves you face to face with 30 assault marines that reroll all failed rolls to hit in CC AND a dreadnought in your deployment zone killing every thing.

Not to knock your or the Tau, I’ve lost to the Tau (OK well I’ve tied with the TAU) because they are fast and maneuverable (if they can slip the noose early) not because I couldn’t weather the rain of fire. Cause the BT can and then some, heck marines in general can.

But out of 10 battles with the Tau I have tied once? And crushed them utterly 9 times.

I play Tau as well. And they can win, they can inflict damage but static Tau have but one fate in 5th edition, and that is to die a horrible, screaming, convulsing, grisly, gory, tortured death. Tau must stay on the move and you’re right about the theory, you need speed bump units to keep assaulters at bay and give the Tau another round of shooting.

But some assaulters like assault troops, or BT are just too fast, they only give you 1-3 round of shooting at the most and the tau just can’t inflict enough casualties in that time to stop the slaughter, they HAVE to move. The old adage “Stick and move, stick and move” That is my Tau Mantra.

DarkLink
12-21-2009, 04:32 PM
Your plan seems to be predicated on being assaulted with one unit of assaulters.

One unit of assaulters assaults the far end of one kroot squad; this pulls that unit 6" away leaving a hole to charge another unit of assaulters into the second line of kroot.

And you’re assuming that the assaulters don't shoot up the kroot lines to get them to break

20 marines with BP shoot = 20 shots> 15 hits = 10 dead kroot who have to make a test or run so you do that with both squads and you have the front whole kroot line down Turn 2, assault the other kroot with one unit and I'm into your army on templar turn 2 or 3.

Also remember that zeal with a chaplain attached can zeal towards ANY enemy unit so you can use it move sideways as long you end up "closer" to the enemy than you started.

so you Zeal left to get ready to assault the units behind the kroot, the other unit shoots (maybe breaking) the kroot then assaults, pulling the kroot out of the other units way so they can assault behind them.

I've SEEN this tactic used, it’s just another version of the speed bump tactic. But you HAVE to keep all your units nice and close or the assaulters go around you’re screening your whole army so you’re open to being mulit assaulted

Believe me when I say that marines and BT in particular can take the punishment for two rounds and have plenty left over to scrap a Tau army. 20 man crusader squads are brutal to try and shoot up.

Well, all attacker's assault moves are done before the defenders react, so you can't use one unit to open a hole for the second one. Aside from that, I agree with how you present the way a game might play out, in general with these two armies.

And you have a good point. A well placed drop pod or two can mess up the whole Tau plan, giving the rest of the army the turn or two it needs to get past the Kroot Line.

Otherwise, it really comes down to too many different factors to say what will happen. The exact composition of each armylist matters, the layout of the board, the deployments, the first turns of movement, etc. With so many factors, anything can happen. It can go either way, depending on the situation.

MarshalAdamar
12-22-2009, 10:48 AM
You're right about the assault moves. I should have said that it pulls the kroot 6" away opening a hole for assaults on the next turn. Once a unit of kroot is assaulted it can no longer effectively screen for the troops behind it.

I like the speed bump tactic and I use it as a last resort for my Tau. But a dedicated screening unit just hasn't worked for me. Mostly because their ld is so crappy.

Kroot have what? An 8 ld and Drones have a 7? So your cheap screeners can get shot; fail ld and run GREAT, and it doesn’t take much to overcome the 4+ drone save (Heavy bolters?) Or the Kroot save of 6+

So trying to keep them in place if your opponent has ANY kind of med/long range fire support is just about impossible.

It does work when you keep a small unit of drones behind your FW and just when you think you're going to be assaulted you jump them out in front shoot the assaulter and use the jump pack move up and spread out.

The drones might get lucky and take out a few bad guys. The assaulter can shoot the drones but then they can’t declare an assault against the FW.

You’ve moved your drones up (hopefully) about 8-10 inches in total so the assaulters can take their move phase to go forward, only around.

So even if a separate unit shots them to pieces and they run or are destroyed since the assaulters couldn’t move forward they are STILL out of assault range.

So the Tau have one more turn to shoot them up or get another speed bump in their way.

Mobious
12-22-2009, 01:37 PM
Here we go again :D

So far I agree with most of the points made against the screening tactics, but I think the point has been missed. The Kroot alone do not dismantle opponents, but the entire army working as one does. The sole purpose of the Kroot is to slow you down and divert attention/death from other units. Thats the same purpose that the Piranhas serve. You place them in front of imminent threats (Your LRC) and slow their movement next turn. Add this in with some elite firepower, and good mobility (Tau have both) and you have a deadly combination.

Now there are Army Builds and Tactics you can use to prepare for it, but in the end no matter what you do the Tau will slow your Movement/Firepower/Assault for at least a couple of turns. In my opinion, when a properly built Tau army can do their job undisturbed for the first two maybe three turns, other armies are going to have their hands full.

Go ahead and use your LRCs, if you DON'T get first turn you are in deep ****, and if you do then Piranhas are there to slow you down. Along with a couple walls of Kroot.

I do not think many armies have much left after 3 turns of Tau firepower.

Power Armor is not as tough as most people make it out to be.

And remember that two squads of Pathfinders are sitting and waiting for you. Twelve of them average 6 markerlight hits per turn. Which can be distributed to lower the Ld of two squads from 10 to 7 (You think Ld 8 is bad?) If you are Mech, pop smoke and watch it fade.

I also think that your assessment of how fragile Kroot are is a bit off. Twenty Bolt Pistols only kill 6, and thats if the Kroot were dumb enough not to seek cover. In most cases, they will be sitting in some sort of cover (hopefully for you it is not a forest). With a 4+ normally and a 3+ for going to ground, they can pretty much take as much damage as marines can. Yes Flamers hurt bad, but that is what target priority is for.

I don't know maybe I am off the mark, but from what I see the list I mentioned before is hardcore. Its an Al-Comers list, has mobility on its side, has plenty of expendable units to support its heavy hitters, and packs a horrific punch (especially against Mech).

I don't want to be on the other side of that table unless I am Guard, or some other build that can either match the fire power at range, or offer enough targets that something is getting through.

Once again, has anyone gone against a build like this with these sort of tactics?