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exoduster18
11-30-2009, 08:42 AM
I was wondering, what is the general consensus on Devastator Squads? I've heard that they pretty much just suck with focus being on Melta and Vehicles, especially since (generally) Devastator Squads are played as a static force.

My thoughts are to just use 5 Marines (1 Sergeant and then the 4 Heavy Weapons Specialists) and possibly stick them with a Razorback or just leave them without a Transport. I don;t really know what to do, so I am asking for your thoughts.

I would like to do a Marine "Gun Line" list and I think that for the most part I have it utilizing what models I already have. These are kind of the final piece.

SombreBrotherhood
11-30-2009, 09:21 AM
In rare instances, Devs can be pretty cool. I've found, however, that their armament should only very rarely be anything other than heavy bolters or missile launchers. I go with ML when I do field them (which is rarely). MM are too short-ranged to ever be useful. The other weapons are simply too expensive, and if you want them that badly, buy them in a 10-man tactical and combat squad them.

Although I've had at least one shining moment with my Devs, I rarely bring them anymore because of their cost and lack of mobility. Taking a 5-man squad in a Rback sounds good, but I think you'll notice some shortcomings right off.

a) no ablative wounds. We all know that the sergeant is going to die first, but even he has the nifty grant a re-roll ability, so he's valuable. And the heavy weapon guys are the reason for the squad, so they're valuable too. The 5-man squad can be reduced to marginal very very quickly.

b) Dawn of War kills their usefulness. I know it's only one of the three types of mission deployment, but in any game where they're bottled up inside their Rback, that's a turn lost. My local tourneys generally use all 3 deployments in their course, so it does come up... Any turn they disembark is another turn lost. So, at best, you'll get 3-4 turns of shooting from them, which just isn't enough to defray their high cost. If you take a Rhino instead, you can at least bunker up and get two shots when you're standing still, which still isn't a deal.

So, my consensus is leave them at home. If you've already got the models, though, give them a try. I simply think that you'll get more mileage out of an AC/2xHB Predator for the money - heck, you can buy 1 and a half for the cost of 5 Devs with their least expensive loadout.

Denzark
11-30-2009, 09:47 AM
Reckon long fangs are a different matter - thinking about Logan G in big games to make them relentless for poos and giggles...

BuFFo
11-30-2009, 11:38 AM
As an IG and DE player, static Heavy Squads, like Devs, scare the crap out of me. Stick them in a bunker for that 3+c save, and its a waste trying to root them out for 3 turns, while they turn my Raiders and Russes into piles of rubble.

More importantly, these units tell me "hey! You come within 48" of this spot, and your dead!" They can be used to funnel the enemy's deployment.

redrio
11-30-2009, 12:05 PM
I painted up a 10 man sqd with 4x Lascannon and the Sgt has a Power Sword. It's an expensive unit at 325 pts but my local scene lets me get good mileage outta them as people tend to load out with CC heavy MCs etc. To date, I haven't failed to get my points back then some.

It really depends on yout local meta...

For tournaments, the Predators are a far better choice.

DarkLink
11-30-2009, 02:51 PM
I had a good game where i proxied Space Wolves, and used a Long Fang squad with HB's. They did a pretty good job, and were mostly ignored next to my Land Raider full of Wolf Guard and squads of Grey Hunters.

Brother Tibirius
11-30-2009, 03:11 PM
For my part ,i love them and i pretty much always put at least a 5 men dev squad of a sarg and 4 missile launchers , wich are good against troops or armor wich mean's versatility and if i upgrade to a 10 men ,split in combat squad it gives me another 5 marine to support my tac squad.

exoduster18
11-30-2009, 03:21 PM
What I was thinking of running was a 5 man squad with 2 MLs and 2 HBs. They get put in some ruins or in the central part of the battlefield to be better utilized. To go with them, would be a Razorback with the twin linked HBs (I have anti-tank in spades elsewhere in the army). These guys would primarily be ant-infantry with the MLs providing anti-tank if need be.

I also thinking of running a full 10 man squad just for the extra 5 Marines as bullet shield to those with the heavy weapons.

The other option would be to combat squad, leave the heavy weapons all with one squad in the center and use the other as essentially another Tac Squad to back those up on the board. Both teams would be transported in Razorbacks with HBs (are two transports for one unit entry even allowed?)

I like the last option better, but the first one is good to.

Chadmack
11-30-2009, 03:40 PM
10 man squads work well in 2000 point games or more. At Battle in the vines this year I ran 2 x 10 man devastator squads to back up 60 tactical marines. This worked because it added more bodies to the field. I won 3 out of 5 games. I ran one with 4 missile launchers and a second with 3 plasma cannons and a heavy bolter. They were capable of taking out entire squads and didn't take much fire because I had 30 marines in rhinos barreling down on my opponent

5 man squads work well in small games of 1250 or less. I play in a progressive league that over 10 weeks grows from 750 points to 2000. In earlier games I find that 2 squads are better than other options such as vindicators because you need to take out 5 guys instead of 1 tank/dread. In short they are more resilient.

The other thing is that they should improve your comp score because they are theoretically easier to kill and cost more points.

In short
- Great for fire supporting horde/large gun lines
- Great bang for buck in small games
- More shots = more wounds = more failed saves

Just_Me
11-30-2009, 03:47 PM
I have had some sobering confrontations with them on the other side, they are tough and reliable (like all Marines) and can reach out and touch almost anyone on a small (re. normal) board. They will draw fire, but put them in cover and they are going to weather at least a turn or two of even the most concentrated fire, during which time not only do they get to return fire, but the rest of your army is unhindered.

Personally I recently reworked mine with mixed HBs and Plasma Cannon and a full ten guys. I haven't taken them out for a spin since then, but the theory is they can threaten heavy/elite infantry (PCs are tailor made for that, and HBs have respectable strength and force lots of saves) or obliterate small groups of basic infantry (HBs with a Marine's BS are going to put a lot of hurt on these dudes while PCs will just vaporize them) depending on what I need, all for the not exactly prohibitive cost of 230pts. It remains to be seen if they work like I hope, but I have a good feeling about them.

tjkopena
11-30-2009, 10:22 PM
Prompted by the start of this thread earlier today, I wrote down some of my thoughts on Devastators in a blog post:

http://rocketshipgames.com/blog/?p=110

Long story short, I run 2xPlasma, 2xHB with 2--5 extra Marines in every game, and never leave home without the unit. It's expensive, but it's always worked well for me. In the blog are some notes, many echoing comments above, about why I think they work well and advantages versus other units.

I'd love to hear any other comments or thoughts.

Thx

SombreBrotherhood
11-30-2009, 11:48 PM
Well written blog, sir. I applaud you! It gave me a few other things to think about, and might lead to some Devastator-love to make its way back into my chapter...

Anaximander
12-01-2009, 05:24 PM
If you take a 10-man devastator squad and split off the 5 bolter guys, they will be a non-scoring unit because they are heavy support.

I thought of breaking a 10-man devastator squad into 2 combat squads, with 2 lascannons in each. BUT you are paying 60 points extra for the second lascannon in each combat squad over 1/2 a tactical squad with just one lascannon. Over both halves of the devastator squad, that costs me an extra 120 points for two more lascannon shots. And the devastator combat squads cannot claim objectives. For 120 points I can take 2 attack bikes with multimeltas, and have some points spare for wargear here and there.

I take 2 full-size tac squads with razorbacks. I split off the lascannons with ordinary bolters and leave these combat squads on my baseline holding objectives and providing fire support. The mm attack bikes can then rush forward and take armour in the flanks, or turboboost for contesting objectives later in the game. This is IMO a much better use for the points.

toomanyarmies
12-01-2009, 06:23 PM
if i'm going to take devastators i usually take three squads, 2 for antitank, and 1 for anti personel work. Ive recently started this set up with my Space Wolves. 1 squad with heavy bolters, and 2 squads with 2 lascannon and 2 MLs. It's working great so far.

RocketRollRebel
12-01-2009, 07:16 PM
5 man dev squad with 4 ML's is pretty cheap and great for pegging transports, and MC's with a 3+ armor save. In a pinch 4 frag missiles can even help with hordes if you don't have any other hard targets. Too bad BA dev squads cost waaay too much other wise I'd use this set up.

SombreBrotherhood
12-02-2009, 08:31 AM
My brief, shining moment with 4xML Devs came against foot-slogger orks - 4 frags in a densely packed formation (he was going 'tween impassable terrain pieces) plus the bolters netted me 30+ wounds. Glorious. But mostly they shoot a couple of turns, then get assaulted. :(

RocketRollRebel
12-02-2009, 08:36 AM
with 48" range they should be able to be deployed far enough back. 3+ turns of shooting out of them isn't really bad either, especially considering that they are a pretty cheap squad at only 155pts. In an army with Lysander they are stubborn and you can plop them down in some nice 3+ cover just to make them even more obnoxious... hmmm (runs to write up an Imp Fist list now):p

EmperorEternalXIX
12-02-2009, 12:03 PM
The problem I've always found with the SM devastator squad is that while more of what people say in this thread is true, what is often NOT true is that the rest of the marine army is threatening. There are LOTS of things in this game that kill marines out of cover. Every weapon upgrade almost in the entire game is either a template that gives you mass extra hit spam or a higher strength+lower AP weapon that ignores armor. When you use a horde army, melta, lascannons, and AP2 plasma are not so devastating. When you use a MEQ army, those things hurt a lot more and being forced to roll many saves by flamers and blast weapons is more costly to MEQ as well (since every guy who dies is a huge percentage of your force).

Combine this with the Marines' lackluster offense (other than the land raider and the terminators, everything in the codex except maybe the sternguard has easily weatherable offense and isn't even close to a true threat for another army with numbers or vehicular advantage), and you have the reason why Devastators suck: Nothing else in your army except your land raider will be worth sparing bullets on to most opponents, and the Devastators will be blown away.

Nevermind the fact that we are talking about spending 320+ points for 4 heavy weapons and 6 worthless, never-going-to-fire, non-scoring bolters like it's a good idea.

tjkopena
12-02-2009, 05:28 PM
I'm not so sure that Devastators are an overwhelming target for enemy fire. When I started playing and the Devastators and some Terminators were the clear marquee units in my army, they did indeed receive an awful lot of enemy attention. Now though, and particularly in large games, I've got a fair amount of targets, all of whom are threatening enough to the enemy that fire gets spread around. I think a lot of that is situational. If a squad of Devastators are the only unit taking fire in a battle, then the other units in the army are not being threatening enough.

MarshalAdamar
12-02-2009, 05:38 PM
I love devastator squads but I find them too fragile to assaults unless you take las cannons and put them in a back corner somewhere. But with my wolves I was thinking. I could take 6 Longs fangs in a razor back and put them in some cover and put a regular dread with twin liked heavy bolters and a DNCCW with heavy flamer with them.

You could screen at least 51% of the razor back with the Fangs and the dread and give it a 4+ cover save in case someone takes a pot shot at it. And you have two twin linked heavy bolters and 5 heavy bolters that can split fire. So you put one twin linked HB and 3 fangs on one target and one HB and two fangs on the other or all 21 HB shots on one poor unit.

Then if the scary assault units comes at you; the dreadnought can intercept it and you heavy flamer it, hit it with 21 heavy bolter shots and have the dread charge it and mop up or at least tar pit it while the fangs continue to blast away or pack up in the razor back and move to a better location.

Nabterayl
12-02-2009, 06:20 PM
Pardon my ignorance (not a marine player, and there are surprisingly few in my group), but is there a reason you couldn't do that with regular marines?

tjkopena
12-02-2009, 06:48 PM
Mostly. I haven't read the new Wolves book yet, but my understanding is that Long Fangs, as compared to Devastators, are cheaper. They can also split fire, targeting multiple units.

Nabterayl
12-02-2009, 06:55 PM
Ah, I see. Yes, long fangs are cheaper - 15 points apiece as opposed to an effective unit price of 18 apiece - and their weapons are cheaper too - 5 points for a heavy bolter as opposed to 15. Splitting fire is nice, but I don't think it's really relevant in a pure heavy bolter setup.

MarshalAdamar
12-02-2009, 08:05 PM
It works well with regular devestators but since Long fangs are cheaper you can do the squad the razor back AND the dreadnought for over watch for cheap.

RocketRollRebel
12-02-2009, 08:46 PM
The problem I've always found with the SM devastator squad is that while more of what people say in this thread is true, what is often NOT true is that the rest of the marine army is threatening. There are LOTS of things in this game that kill marines out of cover. Every weapon upgrade almost in the entire game is either a template that gives you mass extra hit spam or a higher strength+lower AP weapon that ignores armor. When you use a horde army, melta, lascannons, and AP2 plasma are not so devastating. When you use a MEQ army, those things hurt a lot more and being forced to roll many saves by flamers and blast weapons is more costly to MEQ as well (since every guy who dies is a huge percentage of your force).

Combine this with the Marines' lackluster offense (other than the land raider and the terminators, everything in the codex except maybe the sternguard has easily weatherable offense and isn't even close to a true threat for another army with numbers or vehicular advantage), and you have the reason why Devastators suck: Nothing else in your army except your land raider will be worth sparing bullets on to most opponents, and the Devastators will be blown away.

Nevermind the fact that we are talking about spending 320+ points for 4 heavy weapons and 6 worthless, never-going-to-fire, non-scoring bolters like it's a good idea.

Marine offense isn't so bad its just not as assaulty as other armies. Marines are good are close range offensive firepower. As for 320+pts for dev squads, just take 5. Again 5 with 4 ML is a mere 150pts. They sit in cover, shoot transports and can weather a good amount of shooting. Yeah they are bad in cc but you should be able to deploy them far enough back to help keep them out of close combat for a while. ML devs are the next best thing for light armor since SM don't have the magic of auto cannons.

SombreBrotherhood
12-02-2009, 11:37 PM
The only dowside to the Long Fangs is that you can only EVER have six long fangs...there's not any fat to the unit at all, and it stinks to start losing important chunks of a unit immediately.

CrimsonFist1149
12-03-2009, 12:31 AM
theyre pretty useful for me. I run them with 2 missile launchers and 2 lascannons and thats pretty devastating to any armor ive come up against. i just stick em in cover which makes them pretty hard to dislodge. dont take the multi meltas, devastators aren't meant to move at all. unfortunately i also made the mistake of giving the sergeant a power fist and a plasma pistol which is a complete waste of points. also against horde armies like orks taking plasma cannons or heavy bolters can really hurt those big mobs of infantry