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DoctorEvil
12-01-2009, 09:07 PM
OK, after buying two boxes of AoBR, picking up miscellaneous pieces when game stores go out of business, and random impulse purchases, I find that I'm now an owner of a Space Marine army.

And I have no idea what to do with it.

So, I've been puttering around with some list concepts and realized I have more questions than answers when it comes to Space Marines (I'm primarily a Guard guy). So in an attempt to try to build a competitive list.....I have some questions for the Space Marine veteran players out there..... as follows;

Are Scouts worth it? What's their role?
I have a couple of units of Scouts (& Sgt Telion), but everytime I kit them out I think to myself "For a few points more you can just go with a Tac Squad". I love the idea possibilties that a unit with Inflitrate and Scout USR,yet I seldom see competitive lists that use them. What's the correct way to use Scouts? Are they just meant to be a distraction to your opponent or can they be a serious threat?

I also have 4 Scout Bikers....love the models, but again their role alludes me.

The Land Speeder Storm seems like it would be a good match with the Scouts, but again I seldom see them used in competitve lists.

How many Tactical Squads
In a Guard list, I like to try and fit in about 6 scoring units, 6 Tac Squads seem like a bit too much. Is there an optimum number? The lists I toying with have 3, but I feel like that isn't enough. Then again Tac Squads are far more durable than Guard....but are they that durable?

The Land Raider
I like Terminators. I like Land Raiders. It seems to me that a Terminator Assault Squad (with a Chaplain) and a LR Redeemer compliment each well. An Assault Squad needs to get in close and the Flamestorm cannons help clear some space. Likewise since a normal Terminator squad is a bit shooty, a plain old Land Raider is a good match.

But what about the Crusader? Where does it fit in? A twin-linked AC is a very nice option, but the Hurricane Bolters seem pale in comparison to the twin-link Lascannons of a LR or Flamestorm cannons of a Redeemer, and a transport capacity of 16 seems like overkill. What am I missing here?

Space Marine Heavy Support
What's the prefered Hvy Support Choice of the SM player? I like the Vindicator as it seems like a scaled down version of the Leman Russ Demolisher that I'm use to. Land Raider is expensive. Whirlwind is kind of blah to me. So what's the consensus?

HQ - Characters or Vanilla
I really like some of the special characters. Lysander and Vulkan intrigue me. I like the idea of Lysander attached to a Terminator Squad in a Land Raider and trying to get the most out of Bolter Drill. Likewise, since I think I'll have a number of Thunderhammers, Meltas, and Flamers, Vulkan He'stan seems like a natural choice.

But Special Characters are expensive. Do you limit them to higher point total lists (2000 or so points) and jsut use vanilla Captains or Chapter Masters for lower point builds? Vulkan seems like he could be justified at lower point totals because his abilites are such a good enhancement to the whole army, but I have trouble justifying Lysander at lower point totals.

Maybe I should just forget SC's altogether and use the points elsewhere......




OK..... that's it for now.......it appears that I'm leaning towards a Salamanders, or Imperial Fists theme (or maybe two 1500 point lists of each.....)

Orminah
12-01-2009, 09:59 PM
Where to begin..... Well.... You see, scouts can be useful, but it takes alot to peg them down in the right place and use them correctly. I would advise using them as firesupport in a Drop Pod list, but that's just me. As for Scout Bikers, it should be obvious. Turbo-boost on Turn 1 and use their homers on Turn 2. It can be very funny to see Terminators drop down on the board about 12" from the enemy. Also the traps are pretty useful against certain armies. Tactical squads are tricky. They are nessecary, but as you noticed, they are pricey. I would advise taking at least two at full strength. As far as Land Raiders go, the LRC is a wonderful vehicle in the fact that it's bolters are S4, and therefore, defensive. I prefer the LRR, but that's in a Salamanders list, of course. :) When I play SM, which is rare, I like to use Vindicators and Devastators with Multi-Meltas. With all the deepstrike and whatnot these days, it seems logical to take short-range tank-busters. And far as the SCs go, I love Vulkan. He's worth the points for sure, and yes, he is high in points, but rerolls for meltas? Ouch.

Chumbalaya
12-01-2009, 10:54 PM
Scouts: I typically use scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks. They sit in cover on an objective and hold it. 3+ cover is not something to scoff at. Otherwise, with infiltrate they can spread out and block movement, deep strikes, or protect more static tanks (stay 6" away from it to prevent meltas from hitting the sweet spot and block assaults). Combatty scouts are ok, but WS3 really hurts them.

Scout Bikes are meh. They're too soft and don't have a real way of making the most of their scout move. 1 melta bomb doesn't cut it.

The LSS is also meh. Av10 and open-topped kinda sucks, and 5 scouts aren't going to do much themselves.

Tactical Squads: If I bring Scouts, I usually have 2-3 Tac Squads. They're cheap and primarily built to sit in Rhinos and either cap objectives or provide fire support for assaulty/mobile elements. Don't go overboard on weapons, use the free stuff (multi-melta and flamer for me) and don't bother with combat weapons (unless you are stubborn or have no combat tactics). Their low cost is their biggest advantage.

Land Raider: I prefer the Crusader for it's superior midrange firepower and larger capacity, but the Redeemer is plenty good on its own. Throw TH/SS Termies in either and it's party time. Considering how much of a big target Land Raiders are, it's better to double up on them in case you roll badly and one gets popped. Since everything else is so cheap, this often isn't difficult.

Heavy Support: Predators for me. Autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons for only 85 points. Cheap support tank and one of the few ways marines can cheaply nail light armor (others being Typhoons or dual TLAC Dreads). Other than that, Land Raiders are always good, Vindicators are nasty, Whirlies are underwhelming, Thunderfires are too fragile, and Devastators are too expensive.

HQ: I like combat tactics and I like cheap HQs. Generally all I field is a Librarian to protect and support my Terminators. SCs lend themselves to particular builds and take up a chunk of points. Lysander works best in a unit of Sternguard to benefit from bolter drill, but assault Termies benefit most from stubborn, so both fit together nicely. Since they're expensive, throw in cheap Tacs, transport cracking Speeders and Preds and you're set. Vulkan lends himself to flamery/meltay death plus more thunder hammers. Just don't skimp on the long range firepower, relying only on meltas leads to problems.

I find marines work best when you don't trick them out. Keep things cheap, bring redundant units, and use that to whittle your opponent down with fire, outmaneuver him, and use your flexibility to keep from getting penned in or trapped.

DarkLink
12-01-2009, 11:52 PM
The best use of scouts I can think of is using them as a cheap pestering sniper unit. Sitting in cover, they're pretty tough, but not so dangerous that your opponent will waste time going after them. I could see how that could be useful, but still not exactly ideal.

2-3 Tactical squads is all you need, in all probability. Thanks to combat squads, you can split them into all the scoring units you need. And while units of 5 Marines aren't too durable, with practice enough will live to claim an objective or two, while you can contest the rest. It's all you need. Just make sure to give them transports.

On a side note, a combat squad with a heavy weapon sitting in cover does pretty much the same thing as a scout squad in cover, so they might be redundant. Experiment a little, to see what you like.


Land Raiders are fantastic, especially when you can hide them behind a couple Rhinos for cover. Like Chumby said, take two in larger games. Fill it with something dangerous, like Assault Terminators.

As to which type of Land Raider, it depends on how much other long range firepower you have. If your tac squads have missile launchers of lascannons, stick with a Crusader or Redeemer. If you don't, though, I'd take one Godhammer patter Land Raider. It gives you some long ranged firepower, which is very, very helpful sometimes. I would recommend a Crusader for the second Land Raider, though.*

As for HQ's, I'd agree that a Librarian or Chaplain is a good choice, if you want to keep things cheap. Neither need any wargear, really, or at least very little.

*As a Grey Knight player, I take at least 2 Land Raiders in every game above 1000pts, and sometimes even in 1000pt games. While Crusaders are fantastic, I've found that having a couple TL lascannons is priceless.




I also have 4 Scout Bikers....love the models, but again their role alludes me.


I think you mean elude, not allude:p. To elude is to avoid, to allude is to hint at something.

deadmanwade
12-02-2009, 06:34 AM
Land Speeder Storms with a multi melta, transporting a squad of scouts with a combi-melta sarge can be VERY threatening to your opponent if they are outflanking. They're there as a distraction unit. In one game my opponent moved half his army to deal with them letting my main force mop him up.
Tac Squads are a must. Always take 2. If you have 90 points kicking around free take a 5 man squad and keep them in reserve so they can come on mid game and secure any close objectives. Combat Squads and free guns are awesome.
Librarians with Termie Armour, Vortex of Doom and riding in a drop pod with sternguard can assassinate almost any target you choose. Chaplains running with assault units make them very potent. Its important to choose units that will compliment your HQ and vice versa.

There are no truly bad units in the codex, you just need to have a clear goal for them and choose the right unit for the job.

Cryl
12-02-2009, 07:25 AM
Ok here goes

I don't like or use scouts. There are in game uses for them but personally I don't think of them as marines and don't want them in my army, also the models are really ugly.

I run 3 tactical squads in a 1750 point army. It seems to be enough so far. Two are in rhinos and 1 in a drop pod.

The LRC is amazing. A regular land raider just isn't killy enough and if you're using it for delivering termies (likely TH/SS ones!) then it's getting closer than it's weapons suggest it needs to. As someone else mentions the hurricane bolters are S4 and at less than 12" they're rapid fire which is 6 twinlinked shots per sponson, combined with a twin linked assault cannon and the pintle MM I always take, you're killing stuff with this tank.

Heavy Support is a tricky one for me, the way I play my marines I don't use heavy support. The vinidicator is nasty but that means it'll take fire and you only need a single weapon destroyed to take it out of the game mostly.

Special Characters are one of those areas where you'll get serious division of opinion. Personally I don't mind them but I prefer to run with a vanilla librarian in termie armour and SS with a TH/SS squad in a LRC. The psychic hood is worth every penny against Eldar or Chaos Marines.

What's good about the book is that you can play it in quite a few different and yet effective ways, let us know what you come up with

Anaximander
12-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Scouts

Tried them often. Nowhere near as survivable as tac squads. Don't use them anymore.

Heavy support

200 points buys you a vindicator AND a razorback. I use both. They complement each other well. I dont waste any points on upgrades.

The vindicator has some serious short range punch, good at killing terminators, nob bikers and meganobs. Even with a cover or invulnerable save, enough of the squad dies to weaken it enough for something else to finish it off. It also acts as a fire/assault magnet, which gives the rest of your army a chance to survive.

The whirlwind is good at smoking out IG infantry in cover, huge boyz mobs and such like. In most games I play it lasts well because it is not seen as much as a threat as other things. However, in the last game I played it was responsible more than anything else for forcing a 30-strong boyz mob off an objective. It got them below 10 and then they failed their leadership test - bye!!

HQ - I use vulkan. I have flames and melta weapons galore. If you are going to take a special character then look at their bonus abilities and maximise them, otherwise you are wasting some of their cost.

If you want a cheap HQ, a bare bones chaplain, or captain with just a relic blade are good choices.

DoctorEvil
12-02-2009, 05:57 PM
Thanks guys, ....some excellent comments so far. Which of course has generated some more questions, but I think at this point I need to start putting together a "strawman" of what my list will look like, one Force Org slot at a time :)

TROOP CHOICES
For some reason all of the lists I toy with end up have two 10 man Tactical Squad with Meltagun & Multi-Melta in a plain old Rhino. I have one squad (& Rhino) already built in this configuration . I have another squad un-assembled, but I'll have to pick up a 2nd Rhino (no big deal).

The question is do Meltas and Multi-Meltas compliment each other? It seems like a stupid question, I'm sure, because "D'uh they're both Melta", but 12" v. 24" range doesn't seem like a good match. Is this a good match? They definitely go a long way to filling my anti-heavy armor role.

So....tenatively my list starts out as

TROOPS 1 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 2 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

But I really need more scoring units. So next we come to the much maligned Scouts :)

I like the Inflitrating Sniper role for these guys, but I also like the Heavy Bolter with Hellfire shells & Sgt. Telion. But is Telion worth points? While Voice of Experience seems like a cool ability, adding 50 points to a small, 100 point unit does not seem like a good idea, so ultimately I've answered my own question :)

TROOPS 3 (100 points)
Scout Squad - 4x Sniper Rifle, Heavy Bolter (w/ Hellfire Shells), 5x Camo Cloaks

We'll add on one more plain old Tactical Squad for good measure. It gets the AoBR load out, since that what it has.

TROOPS 4 (170 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Flamer, Missile Launcher

TOTAL POINTS (so far) - 690 points

Ulitmately TROOPS 4 will probably need a transport of some type (I have two Drop Pods built), I want to see how the rest of the list turns out.

I realize that the effectiveness of these choice will be dependent largely on how the rest of the list choices go, but based on what I have so far, am I on the right track?

DarkLink
12-02-2009, 06:54 PM
I'd probably put one of the squads with melta's in the drop pods, rather than the flamer and ML squad. Drop pods will come in very early, while enemy troops are still in their transports, making the flamer potentially useless. Do drive-by flamings with the flamer, while the ML sits on an objective thanks to combat-squads.

You might also want to try out PFists on the Tac squads. Not everyone likes them, but a lot of people swear by them.

DoctorEvil
12-02-2009, 09:25 PM
DarkLink, that's another issue I've been wrestling with.....the Drop Pod.

I've got two of them built. Nice cheap transport. 1 or 2 DPs would fit nicely as it give me an easy 1st turn Deep Strike, and possible objective claiming unit later in the game with the 2nd.

The question is what is the best thing to put in a 1st turn Drop Pod? The Melta Tac Squad was my 1st thought too. But then I was concerned that I'd have one of my few scoring units out in the open without much support. So then I starting thinking a nice old fashion Dreadnaught might be the trick. I've been flip flopping back and forth on this.

DarkLink
12-02-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm personally a fan of Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods (though I don't use them, as I play Grey Knights).

Dreadnoughts make a good distraction for a few turns, letting the rest of your army move up behind. Go with either venerable or ironclad. The extra durability will make a big difference. If you take a pair of Dreads, drop them together, and use the Pods for cover. It can be hard for an enemy to deal with multiple Dreads on one flank with good cover.

Sternguard also make a good drop pod unit. You can get a bunch of combi-melta's for the first turn, then let them do their thing afterwards.

Because of the weakness of the Drop Pod Assault rule, don't take too many Drop Pods. Two would work fine. There was also a good article about mixing a few drop pods into normal SM lists not long ago. Here's a link: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/11/40k-tactics-hybrid-drop-pod-lists.html

Cryl
12-03-2009, 02:22 AM
Dreads in pods can be really good. Like DarkLink I'm a fan, I use 3 pods, 2 with dreads arriving on turn one to do bad things to the enemy lines whilst I drive rhinos and an LRC towards them. If you're using dreads with MMs then I'd suggest podding them in, you can probably pop open a couple of transports then charge the contents if you're lucky. Also venerable dreads last a LOT longer than a normal dread and benefit from WS / BS 5 as well. The upgrade has been worth the points in almost everygame I've played.

Anaximander
12-03-2009, 03:05 PM
I use a single drop pod with an ironclad dread. The dread carries a meltagun, heavy flamer and 2 rockets. ( The meltagun is twin-linked because of Vulkan ).

On the first turn I usually drop the dread right in my enemy's lines. If I can place it by the side or rear armour of an expensive tank, the rockets and meltagun usually kill it. If I can get the rear armour, the twin-linked heavy flamer ( Vulkan again ) gives me another chance at killing the tank.

If there is an infantry squad in cover I fire the heavy flamer and meltagun, saving the rockets for later.

By carefully placing the pod I can avoid it scattering off table. Don't forget the storm bolter. My opponent usually is too busy dealing with other threats to kill the pod, so it survives to kill 4-6 infantry models, which helps tip the balance.

I can usually kill something valuable when the pod drops. My opponent then has a difficult choice. If they ignore the dread to face the rest of my army, the dread runs riot in their lines. If they deal with the pod, it diverts attention from the rest of my army. Even if the dread+pod don't kill their own number of points, the disruption to the enemy is well worth it.

DoctorEvil
12-03-2009, 07:33 PM
Ok....with that in mind, I'll head on to.....

HQ/ELITE CHOICES
As I said earlier, I like Terminators and I like Land Raiders, so a Terminator Assault Squad in a Land Raider Redeemer is in the list. And I kind of like the Chaplain in HQ for his Liturgies of Battle ability. It would seem to work well with Terminator Assault Squads. But it is PRICEY!!!!!

Then the question become Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield or Lighting Claws. I like Lighting Claws, especially combined with the Chaplain, but that darn Storm Shield is a pretty nice option to help the survivability of an expensive unit.

I've also got to add a Drop Pod Dread at this point, because it does seem like an excellent threat.

So, the list starts to look like this.....

HQ 1 (130 points)
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor & Storm Bolter

ELITES 1 (450 points)
Terminator Assault Squad - w/ TH/SS. Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-Melta

ELITES 2 (140 points)
Dreadnaught - w/ Drop Pod

TROOPS 1 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 2 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 3 (100 points)
Scout Squad - 4x Sniper Rifle, Heavy Bolter (w/ Hellfire Shells), 5x Camo Cloaks

TROOPS 4 (170 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Flamer, Missile Launcher

TOTAL POINTS (so far) - 1410 points

90 points left for a 1500 point list. A Predator with Heavy Bolter Sponsons comes out to 85 poiints and would give me some much needed crowd control. The problem then becomes the 3rd Tac Squad still doesn't have a Transport option. So what's more important Scout Squad or Predator? Probably the Predator.

So the Scout Squad probably needs to come out. At an even 100 points it might be a nice option to take the list from 1750 points to 1850 points when needed, if I can get to a 1500 base list (I'll add a Land Raider to take it up to 1750 points).

So if I add a Rhino to Tac Squad #3, I'd have 70 points left, which is even more troubling as I don't see many choice to fill 70 points other than;
* Land Speeder with Multi-Melta (60)
Scout Bike Squad (70)
Plain Jane Predator (60)
or I could update the Dreadnaught to Veneralbe for 60 points or an Ironclad for 30 points (or more).

Hmmmm....decisions......

DarkLink
12-03-2009, 08:07 PM
As I said earlier, I like Terminators and I like Land Raiders, so a Terminator Assault Squad in a Land Raider Redeemer is in the list. And I kind of like the Chaplain in HQ for his Liturgies of Battle ability. It would seem to work well with Terminator Assault Squads. But it is PRICEY!!!!!

Then the question become Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield or Lighting Claws. I like Lighting Claws, especially combined with the Chaplain, but that darn Storm Shield is a pretty nice option to help the survivability of an expensive unit.

Mix the THSS with a couple Lightning Claws. I'd say 3 THSSs, and 2 LCs. You could reverse that if you wanted. Either way, you get the protection of str 8 attacks and 3+ invulnerable saves, but still get some hits in at a decent iniative.

As for cost, don't worry about it, other than to make sure that LR stays alive. I play Grey Knights; my army is made up of 250pt squads using 250pt Land Raiders as transports. I don't suggest doing that with your whole army, but one big, expensive unit isn't a problem.



HQ 1 (130 points)
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor & Storm Bolter

ELITES 1 (450 points)
Terminator Assault Squad - w/ TH/SS. Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-Melta

ELITES 2 (140 points)
Dreadnaught - w/ Drop Pod

TROOPS 1 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 2 (210 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 3 (100 points)
Scout Squad - 4x Sniper Rifle, Heavy Bolter (w/ Hellfire Shells), 5x Camo Cloaks

TROOPS 4 (170 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Flamer, Missile Launcher

TOTAL POINTS (so far) - 1410 points

90 points left for a 1500 point list. A Predator with Heavy Bolter Sponsons comes out to 85 poiints and would give me some much needed crowd control. The problem then becomes the 3rd Tac Squad still doesn't have a Transport option. So what's more important Scout Squad or Predator? Probably the Predator.

So the Scout Squad probably needs to come out. At an even 100 points it might be a nice option to take the list from 1750 points to 1850 points when needed, if I can get to a 1500 base list (I'll add a Land Raider to take it up to 1750 points).

So if I add a Rhino to Tac Squad #3, I'd have 70 points left, which is even more troubling as I don't see many choice to fill 70 points other than;
* Land Speeder with Multi-Melta (60)
Scout Bike Squad (70)
Plain Jane Predator (60)
or I could update the Dreadnaught to Veneralbe for 60 points or an Ironclad for 30 points (or more).

Hmmmm....decisions......

Looks pretty good to me.

You will need a transport for that Tac squad, especially if it's the one with the flamer. A dreadnought upgrade would be nice, too. I'd drop the Scouts and get a Rhino and a Ven. Dread upgrade. After playing with it a little, you can always decide to fit the scouts back into the list later.

Rixnor
12-04-2009, 09:35 AM
So if I add a Rhino to Tac Squad #3, I'd have 70 points left, which is even more troubling as I don't see many choice to fill 70 points other than;
* Land Speeder with Multi-Melta (60)


Consider adding a heavy flamer to the Land Speeder. For the extra ten points it will allow your land speeder to be viable against a non-mech army. It is also great at flushing out some guys in cover (for comparison it would murder a unit like your scouts).

Rix

Gotthammer
12-04-2009, 10:14 AM
Get extra armour for your Land Raider - it's primary mission is to get close to the enemy and a stunned result costs 12" of move a turn. I always take Armour on my Dreads, as even if they can't shoot they can still assault.

mercer
12-04-2009, 10:54 AM
Drop the Scouts for another Dreadnought. The lone Dreadnought will pod in and then get raped the next turn. It needs some supoprt.

Other tactical squad needs a transport.

Rest looks ok ;)

DoctorEvil
12-05-2009, 06:55 AM
OK....I think i do need a Predator & a Transport for the 3rd tac squad, so the Scouts are out, and I'll use the remaining points to upgrade Sgts and add a Termie.

HQ 1 (130 points)
Chaplain w/ Terminator Armor & Storm Bolter

ELITES 1 (490 points)
Terminator Assault Squad - 6 Terminators w/ 3xTH/SS, 3xLC. Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-Melta

ELITES 2 (140 points)
Dreadnaught - w/ Drop Pod

TROOPS 1 (225 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Sgt w/ Power Sword, Meltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 2 (225 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Sgt w/ Power SwordMeltagun, Multi-Melta w/ Rhino

TROOPS 4 (205 points)
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Flamer, Missile Launcher w/ Rhino

HEAVY SUPPORT 1 (85 points)
Predator with Hvy Bolter sponsons

TOTAL POINTS - 1500 points

The extra Terminator and the Power Swords on the Sgts give me some flexibility when expanding the list to 1750, 1850 or 2000 points. (although I'll have to make up 2 versions of each Sgt, with and without PS). I'm already thinking that I will be adding a Land Raider Crusader with Multi-Melta to the list (I'll have to drop a Power Sword to fit it in). I can also bring the Terminator Assault Squad up to 10 Termies (or split it into two 5 man squads) and add a 2nd Predator if need be. The 100 point Scout Sniper Squad can be on stand by for the odd 1850 point game. Hmmmm........Solid list or not?

Cryl
12-05-2009, 07:46 AM
looking at your latest list I'll offer a few opinions (your milleage may vary)

Chaplains are one trick ponies... you get to reroll on the charge. Take a termie librarian with a storm shield and you get a much more versatile HQ and one that comes with that lovely psychic hood that will make Eldar and other psychic armies alot easier to deal with.

I'd drop the predator and the power swords on the tactical squads and take another dread, drop a termie from the 6 if you need to, 5 are still very killy. Put your third tactical squad (one with meltas preferably) into a pod instead of a rhino then you can drop both dreads on turn one and have a tactical squad in reserve for late objective grabbing. If your opponent holds everything back you can drop the tacticals on turn one if it suits better.

My personal opinion on landraiders is still that LRC > LRR. The redeemer just feels like it has to get too close to be usefull and 6 rapid fire twinlinked bolter shots can do bad things to hordes, you can also fire the bolters after moving. The MM is a great idea on the pintle mount for those moments where you want the machine spirit to kill a vehicle whilst the crew kill a unit. Like Gotthammer says take extra armour on the LR if you've got the points available as it's a big benefit

Duke
12-05-2009, 09:08 AM
My suggestions are simple, change the hq, (even though the chappie termie model is sick!) I would also combat squad the tacticals and change the rhinos for razorbacks. Razrohqcks are great and give you a lot of options with the simple TL hvy bolters

Duke

Valhallan42nd
12-05-2009, 12:04 PM
An army I played against did the following @2500:

Pedro and Assault Termies in a LRC, Two tacs in a rhino, two assault squads in a Rhino, Vindicators and scouts with powerfist in a LSS.

Everything move forward 12, the scouts shot, and I pretty much ignored them since I had bigger fish to fry. Then next turn, they all moved forward 12 again. Nothing could assault, except for the scouts from the open topped storm (The LRC was blocked by the rhinos/storm to provide a mobile coversave). Pedro gave them all a bonus attack from his perch in the land raider. They tied up my mm attack bikes gunning for the LRC. Most of the scouts died, but the LRC got to run rampant in my lines.

It's not a bad use of 150 some points.

MarshalAdamar
12-06-2009, 02:59 PM
Are Scouts worth it? What's their role?
Scouts are tricky. You can use them as front line troops against certain armies like guard where even your scouts are far better than guardsmen.

Mostly Scouts are used to snatch objectives or hit vulnerable units with out flank.

As for the storm, I think that a couple of those would be great for swooping in and snatching objectives late in the game.

A use for biker scouts eludes me too. Though the booby trap thing is pretty cool VS weak troops.

Great use is to put the booby traps in a piece of cover that holds your dev squad, so when the baddies come to get them they get blowed up real good. Same goes for sniper squads.


How many Tactical Squads
6 space marine TAC squads is WAY too many.

TAC squads are stupidly resilient, and with “And they shall know no fear” even if they break they just regroup and come back. So a little goes a long way. I would look for 2-3 (leaning towards 3) just in case.

Your TAC squads are going to roll up supporting the “assault” element to help blow away either whatever is left of a squad or soften up a target for a dedicated assault unit.

The Land Raider
Terminators should be used sparingly (IMO) 5 terminators will get killed way faster than you think they will.

The Crusader is a unit with one true calling. That being hauling massive amounts of troops to a battle and putting them in the enemies face.

As for Hurricane bolter, it depends. But think of this, USUALLY you can only hit any given unit with ONE flame storm cannon and it only has about an 8” range so until your on top of your enemy you can’t use it. The Hurricane bolter puts out 6 twin linked shots for about 5 hits a round and 2.5 wounds on MEQs. Or 5 wounds if you’re with in 12” and that’s not too shabby.

Now consider you find say a unit of IG vets out in the open after their ride gets toasted. Even at 24” you get 5 hits, 3-4 DEAD plus the assault cannon for another 3 dead. And with in 12” you get the whole squad. So it depends, its not designed to mow down T4 guys with a 3+ save. But it can do it.

But to get the most from the Crusader you have to really be either Black Templars (creators of the Crusader) OR space wolves both of them can take 15+ man units

For regular Marines its best used to take large units of Terminators to the enemy. The Crusader can hold 8 terminators and 8 assault terminators = ouch

The Redeemer and the regular Raider can only take 6 The Redeemer is king against horde armies or vs. MEQ if you can get it into range.

The difference between the Redeemer and the Crusader is what is there secondary role (the first role is to move as fast as possible and drop off their cargo.) But after that you should have a plan for what they are going to do.

The Crusaders secondary function is to move 12” and have the PotMs fire a flame storm cannon. I say this because it’s the weapon with the most “umph”

Where as the regular Raider is best suited to sit still and blast away.

Here’s an idea, after the Raider has dropped off its cargo have it go and sit on an objective. Then when your out flanking scouts arrive have them run over and hop in. The Raider can sit still and blast away with two las cannons AND a multi melta AND some heavy bolter! While you’re scoring units eat cucumber sandwiches in comfort.

And so long as no on scores a wrecked or destroyed result on the vehicle you own that objective


Space Marine Heavy Support
Vindicators are pretty great, but you have to watch the side armor 11. With all the out flanking units out there a unit of flanking sentinels with auto cannons will ruin your day. (I know) But S10 AP1 is just gross. It will insta kill Ork war bosses, IC of all kinds, wounds just about anything on a 2+ and ignores all armor saves but Invul.

The down side is the range, if you have to move up and get the enemy you had better be deployed on the front line.

Whirl wind is good and CHEAP! 80 pts (I think) And you can have a large blast that wounds marines on a 3 or fire the large S4 blast with no cover saves. (Think about that and a unit guard in some ruins) Good against hordes where you can’t really miss.

Predators are a good cheap source of fire power rather than a dev squad heavy bolters X2 and an auto cannon. That’s a lot of shooting.

If you’re thinking about an all las predator (Don’t) just take a land raider.

HQ - Characters or Vanilla
SC are a matter of choice. They are very expensive Lysander will buy you just about a whole TAC squad. So if you take on you better tailor your whole army around the abilities they grant you or they’