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Atrotos
12-05-2009, 09:14 AM
Believing this unit to be ineffective and terminally boring I wrote alternate rules for them (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3798). It was not long before the thread was choked with gamers exclaiming the very real usefulness of the unit but, slow witted mammal that I am, I have completely failed to see how this unit could ever be more than a mediocre choice thoroughly outclassed by the Last Chancers of the previous edition.

Can someone please relate to me how this unit is worth the glossy paper its rules are printed on? Specifically I would like the opinions of older IG players who can compare the merits of the new Penal Legion with that of the old but anyone is welcome to take a swing at it.

Melissia
12-05-2009, 10:50 AM
Probably better off asking here if you want older IG players.

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi

Valhallan42nd
12-05-2009, 11:39 AM
A troop unit that can outflank, and might turn out to be low-rent genestealers? All for 80 points?

Heh, my boys in orange jumpsuits killed a carnifex in one turn of close combat. There's nothing to fix.

And before you respond in the manner you resonded in the last post, the penal legion is a unit that, more than anything else, splits your opponent's attention. It's a troops unit that can get back field via outflank. In an objectives game, he has to pay attention to it.

When you have an assault army coming at you, you can use the outflank/stubborn to draw off an element of his assault force and hold it for a few turns weakening his assault. And you're missing out on the fact that the second roll (furious charge/counter attack) allows them to get in place as a screen, and then when they get charged, they can use their counter attack ability to use furious charge.

It sucks to not have rocket girl, etc. I understand that. I'd just make Schaffer's Last Chancers count as a veteran squad with a comissar lord...

Chumbalaya
12-05-2009, 01:01 PM
"Hey guys, I want to keep using the models that got invalidated by the new book and the bone I got tossed isn't quite what I was looking for. What do you think of introducing these rules for friendly games and one off scenarios."

"STFU NoOb they are t3h pwnz0r and I haet u and they will totally be 1337sauce pr0 haxx0rz sn1p3r"

What a well reasoned response OP got, bravo people.

Penal Troops are a fun unit, they aren't great, just kinda there. There's a reason people don't field them or even totally forget about them, they are a non-entity in the codex. They're like possessed, only slightly less crappy so people think that makes them good, it just makes them less terrible. I think it's a real shame, it's a neat concept with poor execution.

Kahoolin
12-05-2009, 07:36 PM
"Hey guys, I want to keep using the models that got invalidated by the new book and the bone I got tossed isn't quite what I was looking for. What do you think of introducing these rules for friendly games and one off scenarios."

"STFU NoOb they are t3h pwnz0r and I haet u and they will totally be 1337sauce pr0 haxx0rz sn1p3r"

What a well reasoned response OP got, bravo people.This is the BoLS Lounge. It was more like:

*Swivels around in chair and steeples fingers* "Ah, I'm sorry OP. I didn't see you there, hiding in the shadow of my enormous intellect. Your post was amusing, but I'm sorry to have to say that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. You may try to argue with me if you like, but be warned I take such displays of defiance from fools badly and the only result will be a war of cruel sniping for several days, getting more and more fixated on tiny details of each other's responses until everyone has forgotten what was originally at issue, and all that is left is the eternal battle to see WHO IS THE SMARTEST."

Mind you the OP seemed like he'll fit right in ;)

Old_Paladin
12-05-2009, 08:09 PM
This is the BoLS Lounge. It was more like:
*Swivels around in chair and steeples fingers* "Ah, I'm sorry OP. I didn't see you there, hiding in the shadow of my enormous intellect. Your post was amusing, but I'm sorry to have to say that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. You may try to argue with me if you like, but be warned I take such displays of defiance from fools badly and the only result will be a war of cruel sniping for several days, getting more and more fixated on tiny details of each other's responses until everyone has forgotten what was originally at issue, and all that is left is the eternal battle to see WHO IS THE SMARTEST."

Bang. On.
That really is how most of us see ourselves; I won't deny that I've been like that more than once. Wait... what was this thread about...?

The only thing I would do with your rule is this:
Keep the normal Penal Legion and say 0-1 squads may upgrade to "Legendary Status" (such as the Last Chancers or the Savlar Chemdogs), using some of your rules; I'd also trim back on so many options (such as the med-kit; a unit that big and complex doesn't need FNP). I would add an option for a psyker/blank. The black gives the unit a 5+ save vs. psykic powers, and the psyker gets toned-down versions of the Primis powers (like 1d3 lighning bolts and can grant the night-fight rules when targeting the psykers unit).

DarkLink
12-05-2009, 10:42 PM
This is the BoLS Lounge. It was more like:

*Swivels around in chair and steeples fingers* "Ah, I'm sorry OP. I didn't see you there, hiding in the shadow of my enormous intellect. Your post was amusing, but I'm sorry to have to say that you clearly don't know what you're talking about. You may try to argue with me if you like, but be warned I take such displays of defiance from fools badly and the only result will be a war of cruel sniping for several days, getting more and more fixated on tiny details of each other's responses until everyone has forgotten what was originally at issue, and all that is left is the eternal battle to see WHO IS THE SMARTEST."

Mind you the OP seemed like he'll fit right in ;)

Hmm, now I need a white cat...


Anyways, there are uses for almost any unit in the game (with a few exceptions, like Retributors). Penal legion just suffers from "doesn't really fill a vital role" and "other stuff does its job better, or negated the need for its job". They're not a horrible unit, there are just better things to spend points on.

And Possessed aren't that bad. They're not quite as good a Berzerkers, and are a little more expensive, but anyone who thinks they're the worst unit in the game (I've heard people claim it) needs to try playing Retributors or WH Priests, or other units that actually are horrible.

Sam
12-06-2009, 12:51 AM
And Possessed aren't that bad. They're not quite as good a Berzerkers, and are a little more expensive, but anyone who thinks they're the worst unit in the game (I've heard people claim it) needs to try playing Retributors or WH Priests, or other units that actually are horrible.

Glad somebody finally said it. Possessed are a little overpriced and need grenades. That said, they've treated me very well. Last thursday they survived a full 3 rounds with 2000+ pts of units shooting at them and still managed to get me a kill point before they died. A couple weeks ago they took on around 1k pts of nids in assault, complete with a CC tyrant and 2 CC fexs. They killed 24 genestealers and 2 warriors, wounded another warrior, wounded one of the carnifexes, and took the tyrant down to 1 wound. In both cases it was a 560pt squad of possessed (20 models with an Icon of Tzeentch).

In other words: there are better units in the CSM dex competing for that elite slot, but I would take possessed over penal legionnaires any day.

crazyredpraetorian
12-06-2009, 01:16 AM
All I have to say is if you are disagreeing with me, it is only because your wrong.

BTW, I really enjoy using the Penal Legion and they have been fairly useful. An extra scoring, outflanking unit is always nice to have. However, comparing the Penal Legion to The Last Chancers is like comparing a BB gun to a shotgun.

Melissia
12-06-2009, 02:38 PM
Hmm, now I need a white cat...


Anyways, there are uses for almost any unit in the game (with a few exceptions, like Retributors)

You mean Repentia. Retributors are actually pretty good, certainly one of the most efficient ways to output heavy bolter fire that can hurt any kind of unit in the game (including 3+ saves or better with Divine Guidance). Repentia, on the other hand, just blow, except by abusing apocalypse rules or against incredibly weak army lists or stupid opponents...

Lord Anubis
12-06-2009, 02:57 PM
I can explain the problem very easily.

The Penal Legion squad is not the Last Chancers.

Complaining that the Penal Legion squad is "not worth the glossy paper it's printed on" and "a mediocre choice thoroughly outclassed by the Last Chancers of the previous edition" is the same thing as whining that Space marine scouts don't get to carry the same amount of firepower as Sternguard vets. It's apples and oranges.

Personally, I loved the Last Chancers. I thought it was a brilliant, very characterful idea for a squad. But it is not the current Penal Legion. They're two entirely different units.

If anyone asked me if they could use the old Last Chancers in a game, I'd have no problem with it. If they wanted to show me their updated rules for the Last Chancers, I think that would be awesome.

If someone wants to whine because a completely different unit is not the Last Chancers, and condescend to anyone who likes the new unit... well, there I'm going to have a problem.

Atrotos
12-06-2009, 09:26 PM
Lord Anubis, you're right. The previous edition had set a wrong example with the 'Last Chancers' and so I was disappointed by what I believe to be another 'afterthought unit' courtesry of GW.

I have to be clear on one thing and I really hope you read this: I am bitter, and condescending and pissed off but none of these petulant emotions are directed to anyone on this forum. My complaint rests with GW's frequent rules blunders that render units with a rich history and/or background unplayable and boring. You may say that Penal Legion =/= Last Chancers but I believe that GW did mean to replace Schaffer and the boys with this codex's 'lost unit.' They simply didn't care to create sophisticated rules for them (for reasons only they can know) so they called them 'Penal Legion' instead.

Like Chumbalaya said they "tossed me a bone" and though better Guard players than I might swear by this unit I can't seem to see past mediocrity in the face of their previous iteration and current choices in the new 'dex.

grimm
12-06-2009, 10:33 PM
I will admit that I didn't use Last Chancers in the old codex, but I do like to use the penal legionnaires in the new one. Why?

Old last chancers were a clunky unit that operated best off of the use of an Armory - this no longer exists.

At present, the penal legionnaires are a streamlined unit that operates (unfortunately) off effectively a d3 roll at the start of the game. But what do they give you?

Excluding a squad in a dedicated transports, they are the most mobile of the troops choices. With access to scout without requiring a pricey ride, they can outflank into your opponents backfield and raise hell until the flak runs out. Lacking a heavy weapon, it rarely hurts to not move them, and with fleet option, you can many run and then assault with them. And as a previous poster said, 1/3 of the time they're a cheap genestealer-esque squad.

Next, very few scoring units in the IG codex babysit an objective as well as a penal legionnaire squad. Even terminators might need to think twice about nearing a unit of the legionnaires with rending, especially if their unit is back in area terrain for your 4+ cover save.

Lastly, my favorite thing about them is their synergy with veteran armies. In lieu of officers which are not afforded to you by veterans squads, you need to have units that can be effective independently. Penal legionnaires carry all of their coolness in a 80 point package, which can easily be plunked into a list (far easier than a vet squad, which reaches an effective package at about 95 points minus transport), or a platoon, which weighs in at a minimum of 130 points.

MasterSlowPoke
12-08-2009, 03:57 AM
"Hey guys, I want to keep using the models that got invalidated by the new book and the bone I got tossed isn't quite what I was looking for. What do you think of introducing these rules for friendly games and one off scenarios."

"STFU NoOb they are t3h pwnz0r and I haet u and they will totally be 1337sauce pr0 haxx0rz sn1p3r"

What a well reasoned response OP got, bravo people.

Nobody responded like that.

Nabterayl
12-08-2009, 08:02 PM
I was disappointed by what I believe to be another 'afterthought unit' courtesry of GW.
My personal suspicion is that their motivation was more complex than this. The old IG codex didn't have penal legionnaires at all, only the Last Chancers (who are hardly your typical penal legionnaires). The new IG codex does have penal legionnaires, but doesn't have Last Chancers.

The way I look at it, this is a question of losing special characters. An IG player can now play an honest-to-goodness penal legion if he wants to, with his own rules that support a penal legion playstyle (all the penal legionnaire abilities boil down to "throw these men at the enemy as directly as possible").

I'm not an IG player, but the old Last Chancers look to me essentially like veterans with two special characters (Kage and Schaeffer). So it seems to me like the old situation was that you couldn't play a penal legion unless you wanted to count them as regular guardsmen and/or conscripts, but could include a unit of action heroes, and the new situation is that you can play a penal legion but can't play a unit of action heroes, unless you wanted to count them as veterans.

Looking at it that way, to be honest, the current situation looks to me like the better design decision. I always prefer flexibility in my army list that doesn't depend on taking special characters. It looks to me less like a matter of nerfing the Last Chancers and throwing those players a bone than of stripping out the pre-packaged famous regiments and expanding what types of regiments the codex's vanilla units can represent.

Atrotos
12-08-2009, 09:13 PM
I see what you're saying Nabterayl but aren't there some inconsistencies to that trail of thought?

As you mention Penal Legion did not exist before. The only Penal Legion that had any background, any reason for someone to want to field them was the 13th Penal Legion or Last Chancers. The Last Chancers have several books and a long-standing history of having rules for them available in the dex. Is it just coincidence that in the same codex that does away with the Last Chancers we get Penal Legion - a unit type that, bedsides the 13th, has never been featured before? Doesn't that prove that they were meant to replace the Last Chancers?

You mentioned that now players have the ability to field their own Penal Legion army. While this was true and a great option in the last codex it is an option no longer. You cannot field an "All Penal Legion" army any more than you can field an army of Gretchin. There's no Penal HQ choice as there once was (besides using a Commisar Lord and your imagination). There is no versatility as there once was as all your Penal Legion get the same lame skills. Unless you field other good units you will never win in assault, never win in a shootout and never hold your own in a combination of the two. "Action heroes" were great at being a tiny number of guys that were great at everything.

"But that's not what Penal Legions are about" you'll say and I agree. The Last Chancers are the Dirty Dozen of the 41st millennium: an unlikely collection of heroic villains or villainous heroes. But how does GW do any better at making believable and interesting rules? The Penal Legion don't have rules to represent their expendability, nothing showing their contempt for authority, not enough numbers to be believable (there's no way there's a custodian for every 9 guys) nothing at all to convince you that theyre inmates other than a totally out of place set of random rules, the inexplicable Stubborn and the equally inexplicable Scouts.

Nabterayl
12-08-2009, 11:59 PM
I see what you're saying Nabterayl but aren't there some inconsistencies to that trail of thought?

As you mention Penal Legion did not exist before. The only Penal Legion that had any background, any reason for someone to want to field them was the 13th Penal Legion or Last Chancers. The Last Chancers have several books and a long-standing history of having rules for them available in the dex. Is it just coincidence that in the same codex that does away with the Last Chancers we get Penal Legion - a unit type that, bedsides the 13th, has never been featured before? Doesn't that prove that they were meant to replace the Last Chancers?
No, I don't think it does. I think that "replacing" Last Chancers was one thing that the Penal Legion is meant to do. But I don't think the inclusion of the Penal Legion and the dropping of the Last Chancers proves any intent to replace, no. That line of argument amounts to claiming that GW wanted to nerf the Last Chancers, and this doesn't look like a nerf to me. If it were a nerf, I'd expect Col. Schaeffer to be in the special characters section, at least.

What this looks like to me is just a move away from the Imperial Guard novels, and units that are explicitly designed to ape the characters from books.