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Kahoolin
12-09-2009, 02:29 AM
So I was reading my WH codex the other day and in the bit about Karamazov it tells the story of him arresting, torturing and executing a popular preacher while ignoring repeated demands from the Ecclesiarch to stop. Supposedly the ecclesiarchy now seriously has it in for the little man in the big angry chair.

This got me thinking, what would have happened if Karamazov had requested some sisters to fulfill their oath as the chamber militant, and the preacher had also called them to his aid? Or what happens any time a Hereticus Inquisitor calls on his or her chamber militant when they want to, you know, arrest well-armed heretics within the ecclesiarchy? The sisters have sworn an oath to the Ordo Hereticus, but they are also the defenders of the faith and I'm pretty sure it's been established in fluff that they serve as bodyguards for Cardinals and pilgrims and guards for cathedrals. Fluff seems to be full of corrupt priests, they seem to be a major target for the OH. Does this mean sisters fighting sisters happens a lot?

Seems to me these responsibilities would quite often put the sisters in a bit of a pickle...

Cryl
12-09-2009, 02:42 AM
Good question. I suppose this applies to almost anything where the inquisition (particularly Ordo Hereticus) gets involved... who do you believe, the people you work with or the Inquisitor?

I'd assume that the Soroitas would obey the Inquisition (much like a marine chapter asked to hunt down a rogue chapter or a guard unit asked to help deal with traitor guard) but that they'd be very much on the look out for the fact that the supposed heresy was in fact real and not a slightly over zealous inquisitor getting carried away.

An inquisitor in this situation might well use ISTs rather than SoB just to avoid any potential conflict.

As for sisters fighting sisters, that's very unlikely. As likely as Ultramarines from the same company coming to serious blows in the same situation. The sisterhood has been played before during the age of apostasy and I doubt they'd let it happen again on any scale.

EDIT: I've just thought, what level of independance does the Sororitas have? Marine Chapters have been known to refuse to participate, even when asked by the inquisition; can the Sororitas do this when they believe the situation warrants?

Nabterayl
12-09-2009, 02:46 AM
Sisters feel a duty to purge heresy just as much as the Ordo Hereticus does (probably one of the reasons they get along so well - I mean, if you think about it, any two Imperial organizations cooperating is pretty rare), so I imagine they're fairly used to purging heretic clergy. In Faith and Fire, Miriya doesn't waste a second agonizing over the decision to kill the ranking clergyman on the planet once she determines to her satisfaction that he's a heretic.

As for what would happen if an inquisitor and his target both called on the same sisters to aid them? I think the sisters would pick one over the other, or else sit it out until and unless they felt comfortable picking one over the other. I don't think sisters fighting sisters happens all that often. The impression I got from Faith and Fire is that the Adepta Sororitas' first loyalties, like all other organizations in the Imperium, are to themselves. Well okay, to the Emperor, and then to themselves - but I'm pretty positive that the Adepta Sororitas ranks above the Ecclesiarchy in your average sister's hierarchy of loyalties, and if above the Ecclesiarchy, then definitely above the Ordo Hereticus.


EDIT: I've just thought, what level of independance does the Sororitas have? Marine Chapters have been known to refuse to participate, even when asked by the inquisition; can the Sororitas do this when they believe the situation warrants?

Politically speaking, I think the answer has to be that we just don't know. We don't know any details about the Convocation of Nephilim - just that it says the Sororitas will aid the Ordo Hereticus when asked. We conspicuously don't know how it's enforced - i.e., what happens if the Sororitas say no, in violation of the Convocation.

Practically speaking, I think the answer is almost always going to be that the inquisition can't push around the Sororitas without a good deal of preparation. Invoking the Convocation is a pretty nuclear option for an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor; it's their equivalent of calling in the Grey Knights, or the Deathwatch. If an inquisitor is in that position, it's probably because he feels like he doesn't have enough military power already on his side to get the job done.

So if an inquisitor who doesn't have enough military power goes to an organization that has the military power he lacks ... and if that organization tells him to go jump in a lake ... what's he gonna do about it?

Eventually the spurned inquisitor might be in a position to retaliate, if his connections are good enough. There are lots of ways an inquisitor could make life nasty for a recalcitrant canoness - he might be able to pressure her superior, or the local ranking ecclesiarch, or he might be able to muster a force of storm troopers, Guard, and/or space marines to punish the "rogue" sisters - but all that would take time, and depend very much on the connections and persuasiveness of the inquisitor in question. In the short term, I'm pretty sure that in 90% of the cases an inquisitor who is turned down by a canoness can't do anything about it.

Cryl
12-09-2009, 06:07 AM
Sounds like I need to read Faith and Fire

I'd guess that this situation is going to be incredibly rare. If an inquisitor is calling in the Sororitas to deal with a traitor in the clergy then he's going to be very sure of the heresy and it's got to be fairly blatant otherwise a couple of IST squads should be sufficient, the Sororitas, like you say Nabterayl, are the nuclear option for the Ordo Hereticus and would only be employed where the heretic in question was entrenched in a place that the Inquisitor couldn't just walk into with his regular entourage. If the heresy is that obvious then the Sororitas are likely to be keen to be involved rather than refusing!

Kahoolin
12-09-2009, 06:29 AM
Hmm, I read the situation as being more that the sororitas were the default option for the Hereticus inquisitor who needed military aid, rather than the last resort. If an Inquisitor needed to arrest a clergyman and didn't call on the sisters, surely the clergyman would call on them to defend him?

It almost seems like the sisters are in a pretty powerful position for resolving disputes between the Ordo and the clergy, being the main military arm of both organizations.

Cryl
12-09-2009, 06:39 AM
Aren't ISTs the default option for an Inquisitor (of any Ordo) who needs military aid and the Deathwatch, Grey Knights or Sororitas are the next step where the alien, daemon or heretic really needs to be seriously told to behave itself!

The situation where an Inquisitor turns up to arrest a Cardinal with some ISTs and the Sororitas turn up to stop them would be so rare as to be unheard of I'd imagine. An Inquisitor would either advise the sisters beforehand or bring enough force to ensure that their well intentioned but ill fated protection of the heretic was short lived. If the later didn't happen then the next step would probably be very messy as a heretic in that position of power would either have to get rid of the sisters who had protected them or die at their hands when they realised their error (and I'm sure they would realise)

Given the events of the Age of Apostasy where the sisters were misused by the clergy to continue the heresy I suspect they're pretty much on the ball when it comes to spotting heretics and as well as protecting high ranking clergy they also watch them for signs of it.

Melissia
12-09-2009, 07:37 AM
Sisters are loyal to the Emperor first and foremost. Inquisitors may become rogues, preachers may become apostates-- only the Emperor's truth is divine, only the Emperor's light burns eternal.

B_Steele
12-09-2009, 08:03 AM
Sisters are loyal to the Emperor first and foremost. Inquisitors may become rogues, preachers may become apostates-- only the Emperor's truth is divine, only the Emperor's light burns eternal.

While pretty and poetic, your response lacks an answer to the OP. The Sororitas would back whomever they feel was in the right based on their faith. In one of the Ciaphas Cain novels (I'm not sure which one, but it is the one dealing with tyranids and cultists), the local Sisters were following what they believed to be the Imperial Truth but it turned out that they pretty much screwed the pooch and made things a whole lot worse. They are not infallible, just like everything else in the 40k grimdark, their mistakes/failures/falls-from-grace are tragic and story-worthy.

As to the OP's question...In the end, it would make for an interesting story either way. The Sororitas tend to be rather bland (IMO) when it comes to what they do whenever they appear in 40k stories (although I love them on the miniature battlefield), so I think that would be a great story. A story that shows them the enormous block of grey in between their narrow view of black and white answers to everything. Something that shows them as being the humans they are, not some kind of autonomous wind-up-toys for their religion.

But hey, who am I to question the Emperor? I'm just a human...

;)

Melissia
12-09-2009, 08:10 AM
No, they aren't infallible, noone is. Even the Grey Knights can be misled and make mistakes. I merely stated that they follow their faith first and foremost, not the Inquisition and not the Ecclesiarchy-- faith transcends such loyalties, because the two organizations both have their bad eggs amidst all the good they do.

And I agree, most of GW's tellings of what the Sisters do tends to be bland. But then, I don't expect anything more out of Black Library. Good authors are the exception, not the rule.

B_Steele
12-09-2009, 08:17 AM
But then, I don't expect anything more out of Black Library. Good authors are the exception, not the rule.

Well Mel, I have been trying to get a gig there for 2+ years now with a Blood Angel/Sororitas crossover that I think you would really like. You might not like some of how things end up for the ladies in black, but you'd be proud of what they do, I'd say.

Also, writing about Pennie Engines is fun. :)

Cheers,
Bry

Just_Me
12-09-2009, 08:33 AM
I had always understood that the Convocation gave the sisters quite a bit of agency of their own; not only are they responsible for serving the Ecclesiachy and the Hereticus, but they are responsible for watching out for and punishing hersey in their own right. With this in mind I suspect that they would at the very least be unwilling to directly oppose the OH if they accused a priest of hersey unless they had a VERY good reason to believe that the priest was pure. I don't see them having much trouble believing that the accused priest as guilty either, they pretty much see everyone who isn't the Emperor as defaulting to "heretic" anyway :p. At the most they might prevail upon the OH to take the priest for questioning so that the full extent of his hersey could be known.

I would like to point out that as much as the different organizations of the Imperium are at odds with each other, their actually coming to blows over it seems much rarer than people seem to believe. All of the evidence suggest that as a whole these organizations do work together, and simply try to oh so politely screw each other over behind the scenes rather than actually entering a shooting war.

Melissia
12-09-2009, 11:12 AM
As a corollary to the above post, just as no Inquisitor wants to earn the ire of an Astartes chapter, even fewer Inquisitors would want to earn the wrath of the Sororitas. Astartes chapters might very well just choose to ignore the Inquisitor and treat him as a non-entity and irrelevant (as opposed to working with the Inquisition, a they usually do), but Sororitas would likely hunt him down and kill him. Furthermore, the Sisters have access to the Ecclesiarchy's unfathomable resources to spread word of an Inquisitor's heresy.

Nabterayl
12-09-2009, 11:21 AM
I'm sure that clergymembers do sometimes call on the Sororitas to defend them from "rogue" Hereticus inquisitors, but I'm equally sure that sometimes they don't. This could be because:

The clergyman in question really is tainted by Chaos, and wants nothing to do with the Sororitas
There aren't any Sororitas on hand
The clergyman, whether he believes himself innocent or guilty, thinks that the Sororitas would side with the inquisitor, so calling them in would simply make things worse.

Just_Me
12-09-2009, 11:54 AM
As a corollary to the above post, just as no Inquisitor wants to earn the ire of an Astartes chapter, even fewer Inquisitors would want to earn the wrath of the Sororitas. Astartes chapters might very well just choose to ignore the Inquisitor and treat him as a non-entity and irrelevant (as opposed to working with the Inquisition, a they usually do), but Sororitas would likely hunt him down and kill him. Furthermore, the Sisters have access to the Ecclesiarchy's unfathomable resources to spread word of an Inquisitor's heresy.

Very true, unlike the Astartes who are weapons primarily aimed against the "enemies without," the Sororitas are primarily aimed at the "enemies within." They are tasked with policing the faith of the Imperium as a whole, they may lack some of the resources and subtlety of the Inquisition proper, but can be potentially just as dangerous to those within the Imperial structure that they see as threats. In sort, as you said, while Astartes are unlikely to persecute a specific individual (they really do have much better things to do and can't be bothered), the Sororitas are perfectly capable and willing to do so, it is part of their job description.

If the specific circumstances arose where the Sororitas were guarding an apostate clergyman, then the OH operative would most likely approach them and prevail upon them to hand him over. Their entire order was founded on this precedent; when they executed Gore Vadire for being what certain British comedian would call a "genocidal f*ckhead." If they failed in this, or believed that there was too much risk involved they would be perfectly willing and capable to use other methods (the Officio Assassinorum comes to mind), or to just make a clean sweep and kill everyone involved (Sororitas included).

I doubt it would ever actually come to Sororitas fighting Sororitas because a) if they Inquisitor had a bunch of their fellow sisters at his side it would go a LONG way towards convincing any bodyguard of sisters that he knew what he was doing, and b) if the Inquisitor knew he was going to have to kill the bodyguard of sisters he would never take the chance of using other sisters to do it.

It should be noted that the Inquisition has approved and/or arranged the elimination of sisters before for a variety of reasons; in Duty Calls Amberly Vail tacitly implied that she willingly and knowingly left the unit of sisters who had been acting as a traitor's cat's paws to their deaths (and seemed rather pleased with the neatness of the whole thing), while Hector Rex euthanized those sisters who had been held in the Vraks Citadel for the duration of the siege due to their extended exposure to Chaos (despite angry protests from both the Ecclesiarchy and the OH), and Silas Hand was perfectly prepared to execute Ephrael Stern until he established definitively that she was not tainted.

Melissia
12-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Mind you, some Inquisitors would gladly execute anyone, even Astartes. They're rare, but they exist.

Just_Me
12-09-2009, 12:09 PM
Mind you, some Inquisitors would gladly execute anyone, even Astartes. They're rare, but they exist.

And technically speaking they CAN execute anyone or anything, up to and including the High Lords of Terra. The only being that they do not have the right to execute is the Emperor himself.

Old_Paladin
12-09-2009, 12:17 PM
There is a great short story by Ben Counter called Daemonblood.
That shows just how far a Sister is willing to go to do what is right; including defying the head of their order.

I don't see them being beholden to anyone or any power, except the God-Emperor himself. That's not to say that mistakes aren't made, or that they cannot be manipulated.
But a radical inquisitor would not be able to summon them, simply because he was an inquisitor. In fact, it might even be possible that the Sisterhood would assist them battling a foe, then turn against him for being a heretic as soon as the greater enemy was defeated.
I think it really depends on which order it is; and the views of that orders current head-Mistress.

And Mel, if you haven't read that story yet, you should.

Melissia
12-09-2009, 12:22 PM
I tend to avoid most BL books, because they typically rather suck. I'll look it up though.

Kahoolin
12-09-2009, 05:52 PM
Ok so consensus seems to be that sisters are more likely to believe an Inquisitor than a cleric if the two come into conflict, but that ultimately they choose their own time, place and level of involvement, much like the Astartes.

I still have a few thoughts/questions though.

Firstly, the ecclesiarchy gets a pretty bad rap. Corrupt (or worse, tainted) clerics far outnumber pure ones in the fluff. This is I suppose because 40k fluff is all about war, i.e. when things go horribly wrong. In the day to day functioning of the Imperium surely most clerics fall into the category of everyday person doing their job, violent fanatic, or saintly figure (that, is, faithful in the sororitas sense)? I'd be willing to bet that the number of clerics with a true and pure faith in the Emperor that equals that of any sororitas far outnumber those who are heretics or traitors. Surely the sisters would know this, and treat clerics in general with respect?

Secondly, if the duty of the Sororitas is not primarily to the Ecclesiarchy, and not to the OH, what is it to? "The Emperor" is a poor answer, as the Emperor's will is interpreted by the Ecclesiarchy. Sororitas forces have priests with them as confessors so they clearly don't have their own sect of the Imperial cult like Astartes - they are orthodox. If the duty of the Sororitas is to the Sororitas, then doesn't that make them no better than any other Imperial organization? Are they just a military force that answers to no-one, and all of their supposed duties to anyone outside the organization apply only when they feel like it?

Nabterayl
12-09-2009, 06:30 PM
Ok so consensus seems to be that sisters are more likely to believe an Inquisitor than a cleric if the two come into conflict, but that ultimately they choose their own time, place and level of involvement, much like the Astartes.

I still have a few thoughts/questions though.

Firstly, the ecclesiarchy gets a pretty bad rap. Corrupt (or worse, tainted) clerics far outnumber pure ones in the fluff. This is I suppose because 40k fluff is all about war, i.e. when things go horribly wrong. In the day to day functioning of the Imperium surely most clerics fall into the category of everyday person doing their job, violent fanatic, or saintly figure (that, is, faithful in the sororitas sense)? I'd be willing to bet that the number of clerics with a true and pure faith in the Emperor that equals that of any sororitas far outnumber those who are heretics or traitors. Surely the sisters would know this, and treat clerics in general with respect?
In general I think this is true. We might not see it much, for the reasons you mention, but I believe that Sororitas truly respect genuine faith wherever it's found.

Personally, given the 1980s-vision-of-the-middle-ages that underpins 40K, my suspicion is that the majority of clergymen are just guys doing a job, whose faith is important to them, but mundane. Next most common would be the mundanely corrupt, the priests who abuse their position for petty things, such as sex, money, or social privilege - they aren't Chaos worshipers, either accidentally or explicitly, just jerks. Next after that would be the "true believers," the priests whose faith in the Emperor is so radically real that it's transformed their lives. And then, least common by number, I think, would be the radically corrupt - the clergymen who start a Vraks War, or dream of overthrowing the Imperium, or turn outright to the worship of the Ruinous Powers.


Secondly, if the duty of the Sororitas is not primarily to the Ecclesiarchy, and not to the OH, what is it to? "The Emperor" is a poor answer, as the Emperor's will is interpreted by the Ecclesiarchy. Sororitas forces have priests with them as confessors so they clearly don't have their own sect of the Imperial cult like Astartes - they are orthodox. If the duty of the Sororitas is to the Sororitas, then doesn't that make them no better than any other Imperial organization? Are they just a military force that answers to no-one, and all of their supposed duties to anyone outside the organization apply only when they feel like it?
I think we need to distinguish between theory and reality here. I'm sure that if you asked, 99% of sisters would say that their primary "earthly" duty is to the Ecclesiarchy. That's different from the answer that a space marine would give - he'd say his primary "earthly" duty is to his chapter (both, obviously, would say that their true loyalty lies with the Emperor, but as you point out, that's not a very useful response).

But when the chips are down, would that really be the case? Only sort of. Imagine that an ecclesiarch ordered one commandery of sisters to purge another for heresy. If the first sisters were convinced of their sistren's heresy, they would undoubtedly carry out the order - but they would do so thinking that their sistren had turned from the Light of the Emperor and of His Holy Church. If they weren't convinced of their sistren's heresy, would they do it anyway? I doubt it.

What you call that, loyalty-wise, is up for debate. To me it says that, in reality if not in theory, a sister's first loyalty is to her own sense of true belief, her second loyalty is to her order, and only her third loyalty is to the Ecclesiarchy. Most of the time all three of those will be in alignment, but if they ever aren't, I think that's how the priorities would break down.

Melissia
12-09-2009, 06:44 PM
Which is exactly what is intended when I say they are loyal to the Emperor first and foremost. Very few people have actually seen the Emperor in person-- not even all Sisters have been to Holy Terra. They have not been (knowingly) influenced directly by his hand or his words, but rather indirectly. He is a concept to them, the ultimate savior, the ultimate saint, the ultimate person to aspire to be, and the ultimate god. Their loyalty is to Him, and each Sister must decide for herself what that means for her when in a strange situation.

Old_Paladin
12-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Firstly, the ecclesiarchy gets a pretty bad rap. Corrupt (or worse, tainted) clerics far outnumber pure ones in the fluff. This is I suppose because 40k fluff is all about war, i.e. when things go horribly wrong. In the day to day functioning of the Imperium surely most clerics fall into the category of everyday person doing their job, violent fanatic, or saintly figure (that, is, faithful in the sororitas sense)? I'd be willing to bet that the number of clerics with a true and pure faith in the Emperor that equals that of any sororitas far outnumber those who are heretics or traitors. Surely the sisters would know this, and treat clerics in general with respect?

There is a great line in the novel Wolfblade, where a young Ragnar asks 'If everyone is so corrupt and self interested, why aren't they just all killed?'
The answer, from a Wolf that had spent over a decade on Terra, is that 'Don't make the mistake of thinking they have turned their backs on the Imperium.They are still loyal to the Emperor; but that doesn't prohibit them from gaining as much wealth or power as possible."
The Imperium is a very complacted place; where most things are a shade of grey (and often a shade of black).

The other problem is with the Ecclesiarchy itself. It is not a united, singular system. It is made up of several similar beliefs. There are those that follow the old Divinicus teachings, the Thorians that make up the majority, the sects that believe in the Star Child theory.
Even if the Sisterhood are loyal to the "Ecclesiarchy," they might not submit themselves to any single individuals (such as Vandire found out... yes, yes, I know, the sisters of silence were different).

Melissia
12-09-2009, 07:10 PM
Although one should note that the Temple of the Savior Emperor is outlawed-- that's what the original Ecclesiarchy used to be, before Thor's reform.

Also, why are you mentioning the Sisters of Silence?

Nabterayl
12-09-2009, 07:19 PM
I think he meant the Brides of the Emperor.

Melissia
12-09-2009, 07:28 PM
Which is even more different than the Sisters of Silence...

Just_Me
12-09-2009, 09:12 PM
Which is even more different than the Sisters of Silence...

I suspect it was just an honest mistake while quickly typing an post, don't worry about it...

Kahoolin
12-10-2009, 02:31 AM
I suspect it was just an honest mistake while quickly typing an post, don't worry about it...Innocence proves nothing. Melissia should purge him.

DarkLink
12-10-2009, 03:54 PM
Something to point out, in the first Grey Knight novel Justicar Alaric and his unit are forced to assault a city held by a large force of Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle (nevermind that if the novel followed fluff, the Knights would have just teleported straight past them).

When the Sisters realized who they were fighting*, they confirmed the identity of the Grey Knights, and immediately switched sides, helping the Grey Knights kill the traitor Inquisitor and banish the Greater Daemon he summoned.

*Only the leader of the Sisters had ever even heard of the Grey Knights, as whispers only, so it wasn't until she saw them herself and spoke with them that the sisters realized they had been tricked.

Just_Me
12-10-2009, 04:48 PM
Something to point out, in the first Grey Knight novel Justicar Alaric and his unit are forced to assault a city held by a large force of Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle (nevermind that if the novel followed fluff, the Knights would have just teleported straight past them).

Well, the fact that their ship was falling out sky on fire might have had something to do with the lack of teleporting... :D

But yes, that whole incident is a good one to bring up, good memory...

DarkLink
12-10-2009, 10:56 PM
Well, the fact that their ship was falling out sky on fire might have had something to do with the lack of teleporting... :D


Well, they never teleport throughout the whole book, even though it's supposed to be our modus operandi.

Anyways, as a whole Sisters of Battle are second in loyalty to the Emperor only to the Grey Knights. If, for whatever reason, a Sister comes to believe that any individual is working against the Emperor's will, they will do everything in their power to stop them, unless they have bigger problems to worry about. They serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone.

Faultie
12-11-2009, 08:54 AM
Anyways, as a whole Sisters of Battle are second in loyalty to the Emperor only to the Grey Knights. I think there are probably several organizations that might have a claim to the "second in loyalty" claim. Mainly, the Grey Knights (I'm fairly certain the Adeptus Custodes are 1st in loyalty), and perhaps a few other institutions, in their own way.

And the loyalty is different based on how they view the Emperor. For the Sororitas, the Emperor is their divine, and their loyalty to Him on Earth is expressed with religious fervor. For, say, the Adeptus Arbites, the Emperor is the source of the Law (in addition to the divine), and their duty is to uphold the law completely, lest they fail in their duties to the divine Emperor (see: the Rogue Trader's charter in legacy). Then there's the Frateris Militias that, despite lack of training, weapons, or odds, can fanatically throw themselves against the forces of the dark powers, into the jaws of certain death.

That is not to take away from the Sororitas. On the contrary, they are usually portrayed as pure and loyal servants to the Emperor. I'm just noting that there are other groups, and other ways of expressing said loyalty.

Just_Me
12-11-2009, 09:44 AM
You make an excellent point, the way that different Imperial organizations express or conceptualize their loyalty towards the Emperor is different, so making relative comparisons might as well be meaningless. For example, the Space Marines are fiercely loyal to the Emperor, but they do not tend to see him as a divinity in the same way that the Cult Imperialis claims, to them he is venerated as a being of singular vision and purpose as well as a spiritual grandfather to all of them. In some cases this blurs the line into divinity, but in others he is seen as still being human for all that.

Melissia
12-11-2009, 09:50 AM
At the same time, Marines have betrayed the Emperor more often than the Grey Knights or Sisters, and so one could argue that their loyalty, as a whole, is of lesser stuff.

DarkLink
12-11-2009, 01:24 PM
I think there are probably several organizations that might have a claim to the "second in loyalty" claim. Mainly, the Grey Knights (I'm fairly certain the Adeptus Custodes are 1st in loyalty), and perhaps a few other institutions, in their own way.


Good point, though Custodes and Grey Knights are kinda on the same level, really. I'm just basing it on how many have betrayed the emperor, since that's about the only solid way of quantifying loyalty. So Grey Knights (and presumably Custodes as well) are at the top, Sisters almost certainly a close second, and from there, it's hard to tell. Probably the Inquisition, though it can be hard to say.

Edit: Space Marines almost have to be handled chapter by chapter here, because some are extremely loyal, while others (obviously) aren't.

Valkerie
12-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Good point, though Custodes and Grey Knights are kinda on the same level, really. I'm just basing it on how many have betrayed the emperor, since that's about the only solid way of quantifying loyalty. So Grey Knights (and presumably Custodes as well) are at the top, Sisters almost certainly a close second, and from there, it's hard to tell. Probably the Inquisition, though it can be hard to say.

Edit: Space Marines almost have to be handled chapter by chapter here, because some are extremely loyal, while others (obviously) aren't.
Actually, I think the key point on betrayal is "that we know of". The Grey Knights are a slightly different case, hardly anyone even knows they exist. You wouldn't really have to cover up any betrayals. The Sisters, however, are the very symbol of religious devotion. The Sisters, especially the non military branches, are much more involved with the common citizens. Even though most people will never see one, they have heard of them and know how devoted they are. Think about how bad it would be if it became known that even the Sisters could turn to Chaos and betray the Emperor. It would be a very devastating blow. So I'm sure that if a Sister or even a whole Convent went bad, the Administratum would cover it up, "for the good of the Imperium", of course. Also, any Sisters that DID turn bad, would be at the top of the High Lords' hit list. They might even go to the trouble of assigning a special Inquisitor unit just to track them down and kill them.

Melissia
12-12-2009, 09:05 AM
Valkyrie: And we do know the total number of Sisters that have betrayed the Emperor and turned against His light. It's explicitly stated in the second edition codex.

Artein
12-12-2009, 05:28 PM
If you don't count Daemonifuge and Ciaphas Cain novels, tho technically they're not-canon....

Melissia
12-12-2009, 05:39 PM
The Ciaphas Cain novels can be explained away as not actually having them turn to chaos, but be mind-controlled by a powerful psyker. Remember, the first thing they did when they got free was (After screaming in pain from the psychic shock of so long a control being suddenly shattered) was kill themselves to prevent themselves from being controlled again, much like a certain Commissar that was met earlier. Ciaphas Cain didn't interpret it that way, but then he does not have as high an opinion of Sisters as he does of Commissars-- he's quite biased.

Just_Me
12-12-2009, 06:20 PM
To my memory (and it was a while ago that I read that book) there was no psychic domination involved, they were just plain and simply tricked. And they didn't really fall to chaos or anything that drastic, they just unwittingly facilitated the work of a radical Inquisitor. Their deaths were the direct result of stubbornly trying to hold against massively overwhelming numbers of tyranids (though perhaps a desire to atone for their mistake contributed to a truly suicidal refusal to retreat).

Melissia
12-12-2009, 06:44 PM
To my memory (and it was a while ago that I read that book) there was no psychic domination involved, they were just plain and simply tricked. And they didn't really fall to chaos or anything that drastic, they just unwittingly facilitated the work of a radical Inquisitor. Their deaths were the direct result of stubbornly trying to hold against massively overwhelming numbers of tyranids (though perhaps a desire to atone for their mistake contributed to a truly suicidal refusal to retreat).

Wrong book. Read Cain's Last Stand.

Just_Me
12-12-2009, 10:16 PM
Wrong book. Read Cain's Last Stand.

Ah, my mistake, I haven't read it yet...