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RedScorpionsGirl
12-15-2009, 12:59 PM
'Nid release schedule from January WD:

Codex, 96 pgs. Jan 16
Trygon/Mawloc Jan 16
Ravenor Brood Jan 16
Pyrovore Jan 16
Gargoyle Brood Jan 16
Venomthrope Jan 16
Hive Guard Jan 16



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WD Tidbits

Hive Guard Gun, Strength 8, does not need Line of Sight to fire
Venmomthrope, floats around the battlefield emitting a deadly spore cloud that conceals units from enemy fire.
Trygon Prime, deadlier variant of the trygon, boasting a more powerful bio electrical pulse and a strong synaptic link to the hive mind( "Its higher intelligence and synaptic link with the hive mind means it can control other Tyranid creatures." ). Three can be made from Trygon kit, standard Trygon, Trygon Prime and Mawloc. "While the Mawloc lacks the large talons of the Trygon, its strength lies in the devestating shock attacks delivered as it erupts from the ground beneath the foe."

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Legion of the Damned set to realease Jan 2.

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Coming soon from Black Library:
Space Marine Battles, pictures shown are for 2 books, Rynn's World, with Crimson Fists on the cover, and The hunt for Voldorius, with Ravenguard on the cover!

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A small bit on the Battle Missions Book
- info tells of it having more than 30 missions
- also tells us that there's a "swathe" of fantastic new Citadel models to support many of the races, ***INCLUDING a NEW Basilisk and Chimera.*** (I missed this the first time I read thru)
They indicate that in the March WD they will reveal all, showing the new releases as well as introducing the book itself.
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Fantasy Flight

- has a long awaited release of the Radical's Handbook for the end of the year, and a re release of a classic card game, Chaos Marauders.
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DOW Last Stand

Goes with DOW II, Relic released a free cooperative survival game "that puts gamers in control of a SM Captain, Eldar Farseer, or Ork Mekboy. Players must team up to fend off wave after wave of relentless attackers, each more deadly than the last." If you are able to battle through the final wave, the article indicates you will get a sneak preview of two new ynits that will be includedi n the upcoming DOW II Expansion, Chaos Rising. "Encountering these new enemines is a mixedhonour, however, as you'll get a tast of what it's like to face a traitorous Chaos Space Marine Lord and an army of Bloodletters of Khorne"

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'Nid tidbits from skimming the articles ( I am not looking at the old 'nid codex, so I am unsure if these are changes or not, but these numbers are tossed out in the articles)

- Ravenors initiative 5
- 3 little known Hive Fleets mentioned that give the 'dex most of the new background. Hive fleets Gorgon, Naga and Jormungandr.
- more than 20 beasiary entries
- entries that do not currently have models
-venomthrope's cloud of toxic airborne spores "can kill those who wander too close, and which provides nearby units with a 5+ cover save (and defensive grenades)"
- Hive tyrant can be enhance in a number of ways, one in particular being Ancient Adversary, "an upgrade that dramatically increases your chances of successfully rolling reserves, making him even more terrifying to the foe, or increasing the combat prowness of nearby units with the preferred enemy special rule". Also indicates potent psychic powers.
-Mawloc, when it arrives (able to erupt from the ground) it inflicts a St6 AP2 hit on any model caught in its arrival. Template is large blast to determine this. Also can go back underground and reappear next turn elsewhere.
-Trygon is close range lethality, with a considerable short ranged missile attack to bolster him in battle.
-Gargoyles have blinding venom, which enables them to automatically wound enemies they attack in close combat on a 6 to hit.
- Genestealers are 14pts. each, can operate ahead of the tyranid force, have an outrageous WS (quoted from book, no number given) rending attacks, and can add a broodlord as a unit upgrade. Broodlord has a highly versatile range of psychic powers and range of upgrades available. They did keep infiltrate.
- Customization is mentioned with furious charge and poisoned mentioned as examples.
- Zoanthrope Strength 10 AP 1 lance strike. The comment is enemy tanks beware.
- the book went from 14 entries to about 30.
-Carnifex, strength 9, and can take 3 as a single Heavy Support choice.
- Hive guard gun is the "impaler cannon"
-Termagaunt weapon, spike rifle
- Deathleaper has a chameleonic ability (no indication of what this does specifically other than making it harder to hit him)


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The 13 trials of the Skaven.
LOTR stuff.....
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Battle Report is Salamanders vs 'Nids...and the Sallies win the day

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Tyranid List

HQ
Hive Tyrant with: Heavy Venom Cannon, Old Adversary, Paroxysm and Leech Essence same as a 10 man assault troop giving the sgt twin LC

2 Tyrant Guard same as 5 man assault troop with 2 flamers

Elite
2 Venomthropes same as a 5 man assault troop with flamer

2 Hive Guard same as a 5 man assault troop

Deathleaper same as 5 man assault troop with 4 flamers (if they could have them)

Troops
4 Tyranid Warriors with 3 Deathspitters and a Venom Cannon same as 5 man assault troop if you give the sgt 2 powerfists

3 Tyranid Warriors same as 3 man scout biker squad with 2 grenade launcher

16 Termagants same as 3 man scout biker squad with 1 grenade launcher

16 Termagants same as 3 man scout biker squad with 1 grenade launcher

15 Hormagaunts same as 3 man scout biker squad with 1 grenade launcher

15 Hormagaunts same as 3 man scout biker squad with 1 grenade launcher

Fast Attack
10 Gargoyles same as techmarine with combi flamer

3 Ravenors with rending claws and Devourers same as 5 man assault troop with 2 flamers

Heavy Support
1 Mawloc 5 points less than Mr Cantor

1 Trygon same as 10 man assault troop with a flamer

Carnifex with Stranglethorn Cannon same as a 10 man tactical squad with plasma gun

Total .... 1/20 of 40k minus the cost of 2 flamers


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Beyond this, lots of painting tips for Tyranids, skaven info, and painting LOTD as well.

Vepr
12-15-2009, 02:28 PM
- Genestealers are 14pts. each, can operate ahead of the tyranid force, have an outrageous WS (quoted from book, no number given) rending attacks, and can add a broodlord as a unit upgrade. Broodlord has a highly versatile range of psychic powers and range of upgrades available. They did keep infiltrate.

Rumors had their WS at 5 now. Not exactly "outrageous" unless it was referring to the drop from 6 to 5. :p

Ghoulio
12-15-2009, 02:55 PM
Sigh...I was really hoping a lot of the rumors on the points for the MC's for the new Tyranid Codex were just that...rumors. Paying the exact same points as a chaos land raider for a model that just has a Str 9 Ap 4 Blast weapon with -1 to the damage chart is totally retarded. And if rumors are true we will have the only HQ units in THE GAME that cant get an invuln save....awesome. I was really excited to see points costs on our over costed gaunts get a big reduction, but they are 100% eaten back up again by the cost of anything that could kill a tank.

At least all the Battle Missions book sounds really cool, and I am really looking forward to seeing what a lot of the new models are going to be. I have my fingers crossed that there is going to be new Ork Buggies/Trakks (since they have been around since 2nd ed), Deft Koptas and Mega Nobz :D

Bobx66
12-15-2009, 02:57 PM
This is very important. Read the battle report and tell us which units can fleet and if hormagaunts did in fact lose the 12 inch charge.

Madjob
12-15-2009, 03:02 PM
You must be mistaken about either how many hormagaunts there were in each brood, or how much they costed...seeing as 15 hormagaunts for 80 points works out to be 5.3 points per model...

Was it maybe 90 points per brood?

Bobx66
12-15-2009, 03:35 PM
You must be mistaken about either how many hormagaunts there were in each brood, or how much they costed...seeing as 15 hormagaunts for 80 points works out to be 5.3 points per model...

Was it maybe 90 points per brood?

It was 90 points for the hormagaunts.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3540/nidslist.jpg

Vepr
12-15-2009, 03:39 PM
Man are nids expensive now. Gaunts got a lot cheaper but then again they don't sound anymore deadly and might even be less effective unless you bump them up to the cost of the old ones. Gants look to be the same cost.

A basic fex with a barbed strangler is 180? Christ on a crutch. :eek:

Madjob
12-15-2009, 04:04 PM
It was 90 points for the hormagaunts.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3540/nidslist.jpg

Well now that's odd, they tallied up the points wrong too. That should be an even 2000 points.

daboarder
12-15-2009, 04:24 PM
No No. See that point difference is the "point's to play" cost. They wanted the tyranids to be expensive points wise so they decided that you should pay a points cost just for playing them before you picked any units.

Ghoulio
12-15-2009, 04:30 PM
Oh, and Vepr, if the current rumors are true then the Barbed Strangler will only be Str 6 instead of 8. A lot of this is making me think the hive mind has suffered a stroke or something. The number 1 thing I was looking forward to with the new book was the rumored improved ranged anti tank ability....and appart from Hive Guard nothing was added. Zoanthropes weapon is almost the exact same (just added lance) and they now share the same slot as the Hive Guard, and that Tyrannofex thing is supposed to be 250+. Every time I read the rumors it makes me scratch my head even more. Ah well, already spent the money and effort painting the army so I am commited no matter what the rules are lol.

RedScorpionsGirl
12-15-2009, 05:45 PM
You must be mistaken about either how many hormagaunts there were in each brood, or how much they costed...seeing as 15 hormagaunts for 80 points works out to be 5.3 points per model...

Was it maybe 90 points per brood?

I typed it out exactly as they had it written in the battle report...it could be upgrades they didnt mention that make it the odd point cost. I actually double checked the WD again.

RedScorpionsGirl
12-15-2009, 05:48 PM
This is very important. Read the battle report and tell us which units can fleet and if hormagaunts did in fact lose the 12 inch charge.

There isn't a direct reference to it that i see, only a sentence indicating they still have it (in my opinion) "In the south the swarms approached the outpost at a startling rate, the Hormagaunts even reaching the base of the building." This is a quote from a paragraph from turn 1 of the game.

DarkLink
12-15-2009, 06:14 PM
Oh, and Vepr, if the current rumors are true then the Barbed Strangler will only be Str 6 instead of 8. A lot of this is making me think the hive mind has suffered a stroke or something. The number 1 thing I was looking forward to with the new book was the rumored improved ranged anti tank ability....and appart from Hive Guard nothing was added. Zoanthropes weapon is almost the exact same (just added lance) and they now share the same slot as the Hive Guard, and that Tyrannofex thing is supposed to be 250+. Every time I read the rumors it makes me scratch my head even more. Ah well, already spent the money and effort painting the army so I am commited no matter what the rules are lol.

Venom cannons can pen, now /shrug/, albeit at a permanent -1 modifier. It's something, at least.

Vepr
12-15-2009, 06:41 PM
I don't mind the nids having a tough time with high armor values. They should be able to pop standard transports but struggling with AV13 and AV14 is not the end of the world. Now I will say I expected a CC bump for the general nerf the other weapons seemed to take but right now other than the info on scything talons I am not seeing much if any improvement in CC especially with ID immunity gone. We are going to take a wicked amount of casualties getting across the board and due to fearless a crap ton of wounds after we get there.

I guess we will have to see what they did with stealers. If the pods turn out decent I guess that could help some also.

RocketRollRebel
12-15-2009, 09:14 PM
Thats a friggin pricey carnifex. Does it have any other upgrades? If not then that is brutal for the tyranids. My 'nid friend is gonna be pissed haha. Anyway I'm happy about the new Bassie/Chimera kit! Any word on what else it can build?

Sam
12-16-2009, 12:23 AM
Thats a friggin pricey carnifex. Does it have any other upgrades? If not then that is brutal for the tyranids. My 'nid friend is gonna be pissed haha. Anyway I'm happy about the new Bassie/Chimera kit! Any word on what else it can build?

Rumors thus far point to fexes having 4 attacks base and coming with two sets of scything talons, thereby effectively having preferred enemy. I would guess that the stranglethorn cannon costs around 20pts (granted, I have no real reason to think this, so basically I'm making things up) which would put the basic fex around 160. That's pricey, true, but compared to the old carnifex with a similar set up it only costs 53pts more, with re-rolls to hit and one higher initiative. Doesn't sound like all that bad of a deal to me.

Vepr
12-16-2009, 01:12 AM
Rumors thus far point to fexes having 4 attacks base and coming with two sets of scything talons, thereby effectively having preferred enemy. I would guess that the stranglethorn cannon costs around 20pts (granted, I have no real reason to think this, so basically I'm making things up) which would put the basic fex around 160. That's pricey, true, but compared to the old carnifex with a similar set up it only costs 53pts more, with re-rolls to hit and one higher initiative. Doesn't sound like all that bad of a deal to me.

If the bio-plasma attack comes standard and is worth a damn I suppose it would not be so bad for a 160 pt base fex if you factor in the rerolls and if it works on vehicles also. We will have to see. LD 6 on them is rough though unless they can use the LD of nearby synapse instead. Otherwise a whole host of psych powers will ruin them.

RocketRollRebel
12-16-2009, 08:03 AM
Yeah I thought about this and 160pts for a carnifex isnt bad at all. Imperial guard Russ's start at 150pts and in my opinion are much less resilient. Even then IG armies tend to have no real problem fitting 3+ of them into a standard list while having plenty of other fun toys running around in the list. The big drop in everything else Tyranid will more than make up for the hike in MC costs.

Looks like my 'nid friend was on the right track by saying that the Tyranid Codex was going to look like a twisted bug version of the Imperial Guard codex (in a good way). With that said I'm pretty optimistic. Their may be some changes yeah but nothing that will ruin the army by any means.

Sam
12-16-2009, 10:37 AM
If the bio-plasma attack comes standard and is worth a damn I suppose it would not be so bad for a 160 pt base fex if you factor in the rerolls and if it works on vehicles also. We will have to see. LD 6 on them is rough though unless they can use the LD of nearby synapse instead. Otherwise a whole host of psych powers will ruin them.

The drop in leaderships is kind of odd, but I would be very surprised indeed if they dropped fearless from the carnifex. So unless you are facing Eldar, Dark Eldar, or other Nids, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Xas
12-16-2009, 12:03 PM
Yeah I thought about this and 160pts for a carnifex isnt bad at all. Imperial guard Russ's start at 150pts and in my opinion are much less resilient. Even then IG armies tend to have no real problem fitting 3+ of them into a standard list while having plenty of other fun toys running around in the list. The big drop in everything else Tyranid will more than make up for the hike in MC costs.

the problem isnt to fit those 3+ carnifex/leman russ into the army.

the problem is the utility/usability.

3 leman russ do some impoertant things for the army, mainly shooting three s8 ap3 large blast template practically wherever they want. this means either the oponent has to hold all his non temrinators in cover and/or heavy casualties. additionally the gun can be used to fairly efficiently combat transports and mroeso if you invest into a hull lascanon.

3 carnifex on the other hand can only ever do something if they reach melee. this means sooner than turn 3 they are no real issue to the oponent. even if you buy them (expensive at ~+20-25) guns none of them can even hope to compete with the battlecanone. one has a s6 ap4 large blast and the other a s9 ap4 smal blast which also has -1 on damage vs non open topped vehicles.

the first gun can do all the battlecanon does against non 3+ armor infantry but is hindered in range (36") and rpactically does nothing against vehicles (-2s and not 2d6 choose highes for AP). the 2nd gun is somewhat what the battlecanon is against vehicles (+1s, -1damage chart could be argued to be equal) but has a smaller blast against infantry. none has a secondary lascanon shot.


furthermore the leman russ is far more resilent to all but meltaguns within 6" and fire to the rear (the funny fact is a leman would be almost equal to a carni if he had all around armor 10 :P). s3-7 weapons cannot harm him in any way and while s8 ap3 guns only have a very small chance to hinder the leman for a round the fex faces allmost certain 1/4 death. only tau railguns come near to treat both the same (4 woudns to kill fex, 2 pens equalling 6 hits to kill leman but also secondary damage).


so on the final verdum the carnifex is outclassed by the leman in every apsect (and in it's own codex by the trygon. +40pts, +50% wounds and +50% attacks and far better ws/i and deepstrike, and a free gun and and and).

Sam
12-16-2009, 02:26 PM
Here are some key facts you left out of your argument:

1. We do not yet know the actual stats and special rules for the carnifex, so this whole comparison is pointless.

2. It takes 4 shots to kill a carnifex. Every time. A leman russ can die in one.

3. A carnifex remains a threat until its last wound is gone. A leman russ remains a threat only as long as it has guns.

4. A carnifex is supposed to be a melee monster, so no **** it can't out shoot a leman russ.

5. Carnifexes lose nothing by becoming squadrons, while leman russes can be kill outright by a glancing hit and killed 50% of the time by a penetrating hit.

6. When not in squadrons, a leman russ can be immobilized. A carnifex cannot.

7. The "almost certain 1/4 death" you speak of only has a 56% chance of occurring. With space marines firing that str 8 ap 3 gun.

8. Strength 7 weapons cannot harm a leman russ in any way, if and only if they are firing at front armor.

9. A model with meltabombs can kill a leman russ.

10. When it makes it to melee, a carnifex is most likely going to kill whatever it is facing.

11. Carnifexes do some important things for the army too. How convenient that you overlooked those. The carnifex can soak up a reasonable amount of fire, and chances are fairly good that it will, in fact, make it into melee. An important thing to remember here is that a carnifex and a leman russ are not going to take on an entire army by themselves. If your opponent is forced to move to avoid getting into melee with your carnifex, then you can maneuver them into a good position to be assaulted by your other units. Relating back to taking fire, any high strength, low ap fire going towards your carnifex is not going towards your hive tyrant, zoanthropes, warriors, etc.

The moral of the story is: the leman russ is not superior to the carnifex in every way, and it is silly to assume that you can know how useful a unit is when you haven't seen its stats, rules, possible upgrades, and what have you.

HsojVvad
12-16-2009, 02:38 PM
I agree with your post above Sam but one problem. You said a Leman Russ can be destoryed with melta bombs. Tyranids have no Melta bombs, and too my knowladges have no melta weapons or grenades at all. Maybe not a nerf, but it is a boost to SM I believe, making them a bit strong without a new codex. Maybe I am imagining this buff to SM via the new Tyraind codex.

But please explain to me something if you guys can. How come a gaunt, looses run through cover rule, looses fleet of foot rules, looses Won, and still is the same points, while SM, get grenades for free, get combat tactics and combat squads rule for free, pistols and bolt guns for free, and are basically the same price if not cheaper.

So Tyranids to me it seems SM got things for the same price while Tyrainds lost things for the same price. So to me, maybe Tyrainds didn't get a nerf, but SM got a buff when playing against Tyrainds. Maybe GW is trying to make SM more stronger, buy making everyone a bitter weaker. Well I guess we will have to wait till the next Xeno codex comes out and then we will know for shure.

DarkLink
12-16-2009, 03:28 PM
I agree with your post above Sam but one problem. You said a Leman Russ can be destoryed with melta bombs. Tyranids have no Melta bombs, and too my knowladges have no melta weapons or grenades at all. Maybe not a nerf, but it is a boost to SM I believe, making them a bit strong without a new codex. Maybe I am imagining this buff to SM via the new Tyraind codex.

But please explain to me something if you guys can. How come a gaunt, looses run through cover rule, looses fleet of foot rules, looses Won, and still is the same points, while SM, get grenades for free, get combat tactics and combat squads rule for free, pistols and bolt guns for free, and are basically the same price if not cheaper.

So Tyranids to me it seems SM got things for the same price while Tyrainds lost things for the same price. So to me, maybe Tyrainds didn't get a nerf, but SM got a buff when playing against Tyrainds. Maybe GW is trying to make SM more stronger, buy making everyone a bitter weaker. Well I guess we will have to wait till the next Xeno codex comes out and then we will know for shure.

But Tyranids have a bunch of monstrous creatures, which are better than melta bombs by a long shot.

As for the price of gaunts and SM's, it is simply because GW decided, within the context of the other units in the army, that SM's should get free frag/krak grenades, while they decided that gaunts weren't there to be good at assaulting into cover, just at providing bodies to swarm the enemies.

And SM's have settled right into the middle of the pack. They're a good army, but by no means the best. IG are certainly better. SW's don't have as much variety of units, but the units they do have are better than SM ones in most respects. And orks can easily outnumber SM's by 3 to 1.

All in all, I'd wait to see how each unit works within the context of the new army. It might just work out in the end.

Xas
12-16-2009, 04:37 PM
The moral of the story is: the leman russ is not superior to the carnifex in every way, and it is silly to assume that you can know how useful a unit is when you haven't seen its stats, rules, possible upgrades, and what have you.

the moral of the story really is that it is not only silly but outright stupid to assume I'm talking about stuff that I have not seen.

only because you have not seen the dex and rules does not mean noone has ;).




Here are some key facts you left out of your argument:

1. We do not yet know the actual stats and special rules for the carnifex, so this whole comparison is pointless.

As said above, your "we" does not include my "I".

2. It takes 4 shots to kill a carnifex. Every time. A leman russ can die in one.

Talking about extremes is void in a game of math and probability. A carnifex can die to 4 lasgun round a russ cannot.

3. A carnifex remains a threat until its last wound is gone. A leman russ remains a threat only as long as it has guns.

If you apply even a quantum of gameplay experience you will realize that it is easier to kill the carnifex than disable the gun(s) on the tank. If you believe in extremes take two lasguns to wthin 12"...

4. A carnifex is supposed to be a melee monster, so no **** it can't out shoot a leman russ.

And that is exactly what I was saying. That the carnifex has to survive to reach melee and do it's work while a leman can do it's work from turn 1. The problem is that the carnifex is less survivable than the tank outside of silly extremes.

5. Carnifexes lose nothing by becoming squadrons, while leman russes can be kill outright by a glancing hit and killed 50% of the time by a penetrating hit.

Well a "squadron" (it is called "Brood" ffs) of monsters can be killed by weapons that cause instant death all at same time. Nevertheless the point was not about multiple modells. also the carnifex does not gain anything in terms of survivabilitiy (the problem we are discussing here if you even remember that).

6. When not in squadrons, a leman russ can be immobilized. A carnifex cannot.

And that reduces his effectivity extremely, beeing a shooting modell with a 360° rotary canon. Actually when I play IG I allways laugh at my oponent when his hard faught for damage roll results in the as I call it "get of of pen for free-card".

7. The "almost certain 1/4 death" you speak of only has a 56% chance of occurring. With space marines firing that str 8 ap 3 gun.

I was talking about hits. If you are comparing two varaibles it is scientific policy to cancel identical factors. Or do you try to tell me a space marine will hit the leman russ more often because it is bigger a modell? :P

8. Strength 7 weapons cannot harm a leman russ in any way, if and only if they are firing at front armor.

If you are getting your main battle tank shot in the sides or rear your oponent is obviously outsmarting you by a hughe margin. Balance should be done on comparison of smart players and not incompetents.

9. A model with meltabombs can kill a leman russ.

Unless that meltabomb carrying modell has s2 it can also kill the carnifex.

10. When it makes it to melee, a carnifex is most likely going to kill whatever it is facing.

If that were true I would be happy and not arguing with you. If the problem of survivability would be solved the carnifex would still be tradeing the s8 ap3 large blast against 4/5 attacks that reroll hits compared to the leman russ. If you think that is a good trade I'd suggest you start tyranids. you can have up to 9 of those beautifull and really strong modells in an army for the levity that are 1440points.

11. Carnifexes do some important things for the army too. How convenient that you overlooked those. The carnifex can soak up a reasonable amount of fire, and chances are fairly good that it will, in fact, make it into melee. An important thing to remember here is that a carnifex and a leman russ are not going to take on an entire army by themselves. If your opponent is forced to move to avoid getting into melee with your carnifex, then you can maneuver them into a good position to be assaulted by your other units. Relating back to taking fire, any high strength, low ap fire going towards your carnifex is not going towards your hive tyrant, zoanthropes, warriors, etc.

The things I "overlooked" are just those both modells share in comon (I rather just assumed everyone would be smart enough to realice that). The leman russ can soak up even more of those incoming fire that the carnifex actually CAN soak up your tank can soak up as well(that is if your oponent is incompetent because the leman actually is immune against those shots; exception beeing the manticore missile). If fexes would make it into melee against a competent player without me outsmarting him by roughly 40% we wouldnt be haveing this discussion. Apply simple math and gues what happens if my oponent has a vendetta which costs less than the fex. Really, they are not takeing on an army by themselfes? again A thing they both have in comon so should not be mentioned! How is moving away from my onslaught getting him nearer to my other modells? Even in those circumstances where this is right it prooves that the leman is better than the fex because the fex has to be used smart while the leman is good just by simple shooting. The last sentence, again, is a non-statement. At first this is true for every modell in every army that ever got shot, is getting shot at the moment or will ever be shot. Secondly if my oponent is no incompetent he will shoot the target which is of most danger to him.


end of story:
trygon > leman russ > carnifex.

gn8 BOLS Lounge

Sam
12-16-2009, 09:10 PM
Speaking of jumping to conclusions, here is a list of my armies: IG, SW, Orks, CSM, and TYRANIDS

I would never field 9 carnifexes for the same reason I never fielded 6 in the current dex: I like swarms, not monsters.

It does reduce the usefulness of a leman russ to be immobilized. For someone so quick to insult my intelligence it seems rather stupid to argue that losing maneuverability does not damage a unit's utility.

Ignoring extremes is void in a game of chance.

Also, I never claimed that the carnifex was a really strong model. I said that the leman russ is not superior in EVERY way.

RocketRollRebel
12-16-2009, 09:39 PM
Even with a price bump I will argue that a Carnifex is way more resilient than a, say Leman Russ. Yeah you can hurt a Carnifex with a S3 wep but it most likely has a 2+ save and you are going to need a 6 to scratch it. Those odds arnt very good. AV14 is very resilient in its own right but not quite as hard to take down as a MC with 4 wounds at T6 (or 7) with a 2+ save.

Also when it comes to CC it takes something like TH/SS terminators to take out a 'fex where a power fist can knock out a tank.

Yeah it needs to get to CC but when you have3+ Carnifex's w/2+ saves coming at you, you may kill one or two but you still have a bunch the other/'s to deal with on top of all the other lil guys in the army.

Not saying it cant be beaten but I still have a very healthy respect for "nidzilla" armies despite people saying that they are ruined by 5th ed. You still gotta play very smart in order to take it down.

entendre_entendre
12-16-2009, 10:23 PM
Battle Report is Salamanders vs 'Nids...and the Sallies win the day

wait, what? the new dex didn't win it's first battle report in WD? Either GW is slipping or it's a misprint. Everyone knows the new flavour-of-the-month codex always wins. :p

DarkLink
12-16-2009, 11:03 PM
Even with a price bump I will argue that a Carnifex is way more resilient than a, say Leman Russ. Yeah you can hurt a Carnifex with a S3 wep but it most likely has a 2+ save and you are going to need a 6 to scratch it. Those odds arnt very good. AV14 is very resilient in its own right but not quite as hard to take down as a MC with 4 wounds at T6 (or 7) with a 2+ save.


No more T7 for Carnifexes, purportedly. And quite possibly no 2+ saves, either, though I'm not certain on that one.

Madjob
12-16-2009, 11:53 PM
I like how within this argument, Tyranid monstrous creatures/the carnifex keep getting compared to TANKS and not, oh say, the other monstrous creatures available in other armies. Let's take a look at those comparisons, hmm?

1. Eldar - Two options here, the Avatar and the Wraithlord. For 155 points for the Avatar (already cheaper than the new basic carnifex), you get better WS, BS, equal T, better Initiative, Ld, a respectable invuln save, Fearless, immunity to one of the weapons that could more reliably wound it (meltas), and a buff effect to your nearby units. The only thing lost out on is Strength and the possibility for longer ranged weapons. With a Wraithlord, coming in at 90 points, you're better off than a Carnifex on all accounts save for Wounds, Attacks, and an equal Save. For very little more you can give it a healthy amount of anti-infantry or anti-vehicle firepower that doesn't require you to be in close combat, or you can give it a boost in CC with a wraithsword. The drawback here is Wraithsight, but that is not hard to work around. So already, we have 2 monstrous creatures in ONE codex that are much better than the new Carnifex.

2. Chaos Space Marines - Again, two options, the Daemon Prince and the summoned Greater Daemon. Daemon Prince clocks in at 110 points base, sporting better WS, BS, I, and LD, as well as fearless, eternal warrior, and 5+ invuln. Cheap wing upgrades available and a healthy amount of other upgrades can make them versatile, if a bit of a priority target. Otherwise, you could take a summoned Greater Daemon, which seems a bit trickier to compare, but for 100 points it isn't terrible just on its own, and again matches or exceeds the carnifexes statline in most everything. This brings us to 4 monstrous creatures that are better than the new carnifex.

3. Chaos Daemons - I'll admit to not having this codex on hand or having had a good amount of experience dealing with it, but from what I do recall my general impression is that their greater daemons are not terribly lacking either. I'd consult the back of my BRB but I remember that several of the statlines in there are misprinted, and they don't have information on USRs or special rules, so I wouldn't have the full picture anyways. If anyone else can contribute some input on these guys, that'd be great.

This just about covers it. If I'm forgetting anything other than details on Chaos Daemons, apologies. It seems like Cruddace has made a complete knee-jerk reaction to how previous tyranid codexes were composed and completely nerfed carnifexes simply by over-pricing them. I'd say not even Trygons or Mawlocs compare favorably to the other MCs in 40k right now, but they are certainly better off than the carnifex.

Sam
12-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Damn it, Madjob, comparing a monstrous creature to other monstrous creatures just makes too much sense!

I gotta hand it to you, the carnifex's stats don't hold up well to this comparison at all.

MVBrandt
12-17-2009, 11:08 AM
The new monsters in general do not compare favorably on a price basis to any of the other monsters in the game, as Madjob has mostly illuminated.

It's a kneejerk at best by Cruddace; pure incompetence at worst.

The funny thing is, none of them are "bad" models ... which is why you keep getting arguments like "well they soak a lot of fire" or "come on 5 re-roll cc attacks!!!!" The problem is that for models who find it more difficult (not impossible at all) to get a cover save, who cannot hide in units, who aren't eternal, who don't have invulnerable saves, who don't have more than a 3+ save in most cases, who are often just walking and don't have wings, etc. etc., the POINTS COST is just too high.

Non-eternal, non-invul save multi-wound models that cannot be hidden are almost IMPOSSIBLE to price correctly. The best solution is to make them properly durable for their points, and limit the # you can field, or to give them eternal warrior and high invul saves to justify their points cost. To wit, Fateweaver is "worth" 333 points b/c although it is an absolutely absurd price cost, he is reliably durable ... therefore, you can count on him to get something done before he goes down, even if that is just "soak an absurd amount of firepower please." Old Carnifexes were "worth" 114 points at the elite slot b/c although a few meltaguns did them in reliably, you weren't paying out the nose for them. Old Carnifexes were broken, however, b/c you could SPAM them ... and it's wrong to allow people to field 6 114 point models that are eternal and are "difficult" for certain lists to easily counter. The solution here would have been to leave fexes with eternal and their points cost, and relegate them to Heavy Support, *or* to increase their points cost but give them something like Feel No Pain, or some form of combat or ranged invul save related to its incredible bulk and the odds of even powerful shots just hitting some peripheral piece of meaty armor.

Cruddace didn't do any of this right. He gave them more weaponry (which is something you should allow a person to voluntarily choose), and massively buffed their cost as a result, while simultaneously removing eternal, and leaving their base stats at the higher points cost. He's basically forcing tyranid players to take their current 85 point fex, and force pay for 2 scything talons at better stats, a plasma cannon belch, and a new initiative modifier when charging. He then slaps all the other equipment upgrades on top as optional highly priced add-ons. What he doesn't understand is that it's the opposite of what he did "right" for Veterans in the IG dex. Imagine if he charged you 160 points for a Veteran Squad that came with carapace armor, defensive grenades, camo cloaks, meltabombs and a demo charge, and THEN offered you the choice to give them a pfist, psword, and 3 special weapons ... people would be complaining that the price rendered them inoperable, while morons retorted that they had all this cool equipment and they were too cheap in the prior dex!!! (!11111).

Keep units cheap, keep their standard equipment minimal, and maximize their options. This "base" condition encourages intelligent choice and rewards skilled list building and decision making. It rewards better players for making more out of less well equipped units, and punishes players who simply load up on the equipment and try to create "deathstar" units that just get flung at targets. It heightens the quality of the game. I don't know if this is what GW wants, though, or at least what they understand.

This management of multi-wounders has been poorly done with the new nids, from warriors on up, which is why you won't see a lot of people take things like fexes and warriors and the like in "all comers" builds, and is why you're hearing the complaints, though perhaps not all the complainers fully understand the details of WHY it frustrates them, just the "end result proof" of why it is frustrating.

Evil-Termite
12-17-2009, 11:15 AM
Madjob, Thanks for writing the comparison monsters vs monsters. Although I haven't written about it, I've been troubled about why a 160 point carnifex is 60 points better than my 100 point wraithlord with wraith sword.

The most logical explanation I can think of is that the carnifex, which is priced so high, must have synergy with some other units in the Tyranid codex that make it godly when the powers are combined. It also may just have synergy with some other units that are super cheap. Hopefully including a carnifex or two in your list will still be a viable option for competitive/ semi-competitive lists.

On the other hand, the tri-las predator and the power fist were both priced about right in the 4th edition codex for the 5th edition rule set, but GW hiked their prices right up making them a lot less attractive, and other units just became flat out better for the points. Lets hope this isn't the case for the carnifex.

Lucky for me I haven't actually started my nids army yet. I've been planning to start one when I finish painting my Eldar, which should be finished up by the end of the year. :D I plan to buy the models that are good stuff from the get go, and if the carnifex isn't on the list, I'll only cry a little.

DarkLink
12-17-2009, 02:50 PM
I so don't feel sorry for all those complaining about loosing Eternal Warrior. Every other army in the game has to do without it (for the most part).

Besides, most of the stuff loosing EW is T5/6. Str 10 weapons are rare, as are force weapons.

We'll just have to see if Warriors are useful or not, considering either the 3 Wounds and reduced price or their vulnerability to Str 8 weapons.

I'm willing to bet that they're going to be used a lot more than they currently are, you'll just need to keep a screen of bodies around them to protect them from drive by melta shots.



It's a kneejerk at best by Cruddace; pure incompetence at worst.

Cruddace didn't do any of this right.

Wow. Way to hate on someone before you even get to playtest stuff to see how it works out. This isn't warseer.

Duke
12-17-2009, 04:23 PM
I so don't feel sorry for all those complaining about loosing Eternal Warrior. Every other army in the game has to do without it (for the most part).

Besides, most of the stuff loosing EW is T5/6. Str 10 weapons are rare, as are force weapons.

We'll just have to see if Warriors are useful or not, considering either the 3 Wounds and reduced price or their vulnerability to Str 8 weapons.

I'm willing to bet that they're going to be used a lot more than they currently are, you'll just need to keep a screen of bodies around them to protect them from drive by melta shots....

I agree with you on this. I think that there should be ways to get rid of big bugs. If My Librarian can now use his Force Weapon to kill a Carnifex then great, but it takes an HQ choice to do that! Also, people sholdn't whine about Warriors being vulnerable to st8+ weapons... Again, if I haev to shoot a bunch of anti-vehicle weapons at your new Troops choice the so be it, but it take a heavy support choice to do that!

I really get a kick of how people whine, almost like Eldar power players who stopped playing once 5th ed came out only because of the lowering in power of their codex.

Duke

Renegade
12-17-2009, 04:45 PM
I want to see how they pan out before I jump on any "bandwagon" . But they "seem" to be a nasty army from whats coming out.

MVBrandt
12-17-2009, 05:29 PM
I so don't feel sorry for all those complaining about loosing Eternal Warrior. Every other army in the game has to do without it (for the most part).

Besides, most of the stuff loosing EW is T5/6. Str 10 weapons are rare, as are force weapons.

We'll just have to see if Warriors are useful or not, considering either the 3 Wounds and reduced price or their vulnerability to Str 8 weapons.

I'm willing to bet that they're going to be used a lot more than they currently are, you'll just need to keep a screen of bodies around them to protect them from drive by melta shots.



Wow. Way to hate on someone before you even get to playtest stuff to see how it works out. This isn't warseer.

What makes you think I haven't playtested this?

Evil-Termite
12-17-2009, 06:16 PM
What makes you think I haven't playtested this? This statement implies that you have indeed play tested things in the new Tyranid codex. If you have indeed playtested it...

What units have you found to be particularly good for the points?
Which units have good synergy together?
How did the army you played do? (did you win, loose, or tie)
What was the MVP unit of your game(s)?
Do you see the Tyranids codex as a competitive one?
And most importantly, how well do the bugs bust transports?

Cthulhu
12-17-2009, 07:11 PM
3. Chaos Daemons - I'll admit to not having this codex on hand or having had a good amount of experience dealing with it, but from what I do recall my general impression is that their greater daemons are not terribly lacking either. I'd consult the back of my BRB but I remember that several of the statlines in there are misprinted, and they don't have information on USRs or special rules, so I wouldn't have the full picture anyways. If anyone else can contribute some input on these guys, that'd be great.

Bloodthirster - ~250 points, ~300 tricked out. Statline blows doors on the Carnifex (WS10, BS4, S8(9 charge), T6, A5, I5(6 charge), W4 or 5) as it probably should for nearly twice the cost. He's pretty much immune to pykers also.

Keeper of Secrets - I think ~250 points at the end of the day, similar stats to the 'thirster, lower WS (8 I think), I10 though, I want to say he has options for defensive grenades also, but that might be Nurgle.

Great Unclean One - the cheap one, I think ~200 points with options, bag of wounds, but still has WS7 and psyker abilities, also has FNP USR.

Lord of Change - ranged psyker platform, if he ends up in HTH you probably failed or he's attacking something fairly weak. I want to say that he's probably the only Greater Daemon that would have serious trouble with the Carnifex, but he's also probably going to pepper him from range. Suspect ~250 points with upgrades.

Chaos Daemons get more expensive Daemon Princes from Heavy Support, they are slightly pricier than the CSM versions, but effectively have the same statline.

Zazoo
12-18-2009, 04:52 AM
I dont get it with the removal of ID its not a huge loss to T5+ units but it absolutely MASSIVE to T4 mid sized critters.

So take a look at a ravener witch were NEVER used in the old DEX they were 40Pts with Rending Claws, Possible Immune to ID and Devourer they are still 40Pts with no option of Immune to ID. HUH!!!!

What will make me use them? Sure they might have an extra wound but who cares its the powerfists that do them in (and with as far we all can tell) no option for assault grenades they are going to get absolutely murdered.
One PF hit is going to net the other player 3 combat res not 2 like before, its actually WORSE than before.

And that is just one example of what im talking about. Take a look at what a unit of long fangs with 5 Missile Launchers will do to nids each turn, they will reliably be popping UNITS of Warriors or a Fex per turn and they are dirt cheap. I should Know I field them.

MVBrandt
12-18-2009, 06:09 AM
You've hit on the problem, in yet another variance. More to the point is not the vulnerability, but the fact that we're paying POINTS for three wound creatures based on the opportunity cost of when they don't go up against S8. Cruddace = silly person.

Herald of Nurgle
12-18-2009, 08:47 AM
wait, what? the new dex didn't win it's first battle report in WD? Either GW is slipping or it's a misprint. Everyone knows the new flavour-of-the-month codex always wins. :p
It's SM vs. Nids.
GW was probably thinking 'hmm, on one hand we have the new army... on the other we have our flagship for 40k'



Great Unclean One - the cheap one, I think ~200 points with options, bag of wounds, but still has WS7 and psyker abilities, also has FNP USR.

Lord of Change - ranged psyker platform, if he ends up in HTH you probably failed or he's attacking something fairly weak. I want to say that he's probably the only Greater Daemon that would have serious trouble with the Carnifex, but he's also probably going to pepper him from range. Suspect ~250 points with upgrades.

That's sort of a reverse. Great Unclean One has the same wounds, and is only just better in combat than a Lord of Change.
However, Lord of Change has Soul Devourer at standard. One wound and you've popped a Fex.

The West Coast Knight
12-18-2009, 09:59 AM
What makes me surprised is no one seems to be talking about the points cost for a Trygon.
200 points if it can do everything the same as the current Data sheet and the stats remain the same thats a 100 point drop in the cost to field one of these babies.
I for one have fingers and toes crossed.


WCK

HsojVvad
12-18-2009, 11:17 AM
I dont get it with the removal of ID its not a huge loss to T5+ units but it absolutely MASSIVE to T4 mid sized critters.

So take a look at a ravener witch were NEVER used in the old DEX they were 40Pts with Rending Claws, Possible Immune to ID and Devourer they are still 40Pts with no option of Immune to ID. HUH!!!!

What will make me use them? Sure they might have an extra wound but who cares its the powerfists that do them in (and with as far we all can tell) no option for assault grenades they are going to get absolutely murdered.
One PF hit is going to net the other player 3 combat res not 2 like before, its actually WORSE than before.

And that is just one example of what im talking about. Take a look at what a unit of long fangs with 5 Missile Launchers will do to nids each turn, they will reliably be popping UNITS of Warriors or a Fex per turn and they are dirt cheap. I should Know I field them.

This is GW way of making SM more stronger without giving them a new codex. I just find it funny how many Tyranid units are the same price from the last codex, but get less, while SM are about the same points but get more, like grenades, pistols, combat tactics etc.

Oh well not much we can do about. We have 2 options, either quit GW or Tyranids, or (better not say it :) ) just play with them, and grin and bear it.

I wunder if DE players are happy not to get a new codex now that is seems only SM codex gets buffed and not others.

DarkLink
12-18-2009, 12:11 PM
I wunder if DE players are happy not to get a new codex now that is seems only SM codex gets buffed and not others.

Does IG count as a SM army now:p?

Cthulhu
12-18-2009, 12:20 PM
That's sort of a reverse. Great Unclean One has the same wounds, and is only just better in combat than a Lord of Change.
However, Lord of Change has Soul Devourer at standard. One wound and you've popped a Fex.

Totally forgot about Soul Devourer, good point, shows how much I know!:D

HsojVvad
12-18-2009, 12:53 PM
Does IG count as a SM army now:p?

Maybe I should have said Imperium? Forgot about the IG :o

RedScorpionsGirl
12-18-2009, 04:46 PM
What makes you think I haven't playtested this?


I say you're absoutely full of yourself and trying to get attention. You haven't made any indication that you DID playtest anything what so ever, just hinting that you "could have". Show some *valid* proof that you are a playtester, and not simply trying to heat up cold water with that much hot air seeping from yourself....

DarkLink
12-18-2009, 07:23 PM
I say you're absoutely full of yourself and trying to get attention. You haven't made any indication that you DID playtest anything what so ever, just hinting that you "could have". Show some *valid* proof that you are a playtester, and not simply trying to heat up cold water with that much hot air seeping from yourself....

I kinda have to agree. Since none of us have gotten to see the codex, other than these vague rumors, we can naturally assume that most people commenting haven't either. Plus, there's a big difference between getting to leaf through the codex and actually playing some games with it. So if you've actually gotten to playtest legal lists using the new codex, say so, instead of waiting and then acting as if we should have known all along.


Regardless, it's never been Carnifexes that intimidate me. My Grey Knight Grand Master and Terminator retinue can handle Carnifexes. Easily. As in, 2 or 3 per turn, with out them getting to hit back:cool:.

Hive Tyrants, on the other hand, aren't so easy to deal with. You can't kill them in CC, because they hit first and wipe out your whole squad. And you can't shoot them to death, because you have to go through 3 Hive Guard first. Good thing those guys are getting more expensive. Carnifexes may not fully deserve such a significant points increase, but the Hive Tyrant and Guard combo certainly do.

Rusty Nail
12-19-2009, 07:16 AM
I say you're absoutely full of yourself and trying to get attention. You haven't made any indication that you DID playtest anything what so ever, just hinting that you "could have". Show some *valid* proof that you are a playtester, and not simply trying to heat up cold water with that much hot air seeping from yourself....

Couldn't have put it better myself

MVBrandt
12-19-2009, 08:35 AM
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of so much haterade on the BOLS forums. Redsc, Rusty, act like adults and not petulants please. As far as I'm aware, nobody does formal playtesting of GW products outside of GW, but everyone and their mother has vassal and lots of models to proxy with friendly gaming groups. All of these things provide folks the opportunity to start putting models down and playing as rumors pop, to get a practical feel for whatever the rumors imply, and not just a kneejerk internet epeen-boosting feel.

I would actually have preferred 0 attention, especially the trash talking two year old kind. Grow up, kiddies.

My reply was to: "Wow. Way to hate on someone before you even get to playtest stuff to see how it works out. This isn't warseer." The hate was referring to something I said about cruddace's work as we know it. I've been playtesting the rumors as they stand with my own folks and what-not, as I assume lots of people have. As rumors change and "reality" appears, my opinions will continue to change with it. This is a game, one everyone can play all they want with whatever information they have. Ya'll are freakin' unpleasant to drop to the level of insulting people on an e-forum over a wargame. As the person I was originally replying to stated ... I thought this wasn't warseer ...

As an aside, the WORST thing is to take rumors and information and NOT put them on a practical playing surface before coming up with wild opinions (positive or negative). Hence the commentary ... dudes.


Final PS - If you're going to actually commit to insulting someone on a forum, and trying to feel better about w/e crappy day you've had by targeting like that, please look at the context of what you're targeting. Taking a line I dropped and dragging it way OUT of the context of simply replying to an individual that I HAVE started playtesting things ... puts you on your own podium of hot air. I never implied or stated that I was a formal GW playtester, and it took you (reds) reading what I wrote, ignoring darklink's comment, assuming I'm trying to make myself seem all important, and then coming up with a personal attack based on that one line. Grats.

Bigred
12-19-2009, 10:56 AM
Everybody, settle down.

We are theorizing about toy space bugs here, not international policy. Yes, I know... I love my toy space bugs too.

Serenity now people, serenity now.

DarkLink
12-19-2009, 01:01 PM
My reply was to: "Wow. Way to hate on someone before you even get to playtest stuff to see how it works out. This isn't warseer." The hate was referring to something I said about cruddace's work as we know it. I've been playtesting the rumors as they stand with my own folks and what-not, as I assume lots of people have. As rumors change and "reality" appears, my opinions will continue to change with it. This is a game, one everyone can play all they want with whatever information they have. Ya'll are freakin' unpleasant to drop to the level of insulting people on an e-forum over a wargame. As the person I was originally replying to stated ... I thought this wasn't warseer ...


Ironically enough, the point of that comment was exactly the same as your comment here. I didn't say it to insult you. I said it to point out that it's kinda pointless to show contempt for someone (Cruddance) over a game, if you've never met him or gotten to know him personally.

Regardless, my comment wasn't intended to be combative.

Anyways, not all of us have seen the actual points values for stuff. In fact, at this point I don't think very many of us have. And until we know the final points values, we can't really do any playtesting. I'm interesting in what units you've tested and how they worked out. I'll assume you've tried Carnifexes and they haven't lived up to your standards. What about other units?

MVBrandt
12-19-2009, 01:08 PM
Fexes are actally OK, just different. I don't think they're durable enough for their point, or impactful enough for their points, against canny opponents.

So far, mostly tested 9 hive guard + 5 tervigons + 3 small gaunt squads + 3 fex or mawloc or trygon (depending on the moment) builds, since the points for those all are pretty nailed down. Stayed away from any psychic powers besides synapse on the tervigons, since details aren't clear. Also spawning gaunts from the Tervigons every turn even in kill points in case they don't have a choice.

Been interesting.

Plucky
12-19-2009, 01:14 PM
Fexes are actally OK, just different. I don't think they're durable enough for their point, or impactful enough for their points, against canny opponents.

So far, mostly tested 9 hive guard + 5 tervigons + 3 small gaunt squads + 3 fex or mawloc or trygon (depending on the moment) builds, since the points for those all are pretty nailed down. Stayed away from any psychic powers besides synapse on the tervigons, since details aren't clear. Also spawning gaunts from the Tervigons every turn even in kill points in case they don't have a choice.

Been interesting.

How did you already test these models?

and about Robin Cruddace..people here can say what ever they want about his work. they are not talking about him they are simply refering to his work. Therefore he made a terrible revamp of the Nid codex. So yes, he is incompetant in regards to this new codex.

The IG needed a small tweak and he gave them a massive boost making that codex one of the best (next to sm & eldar) in the new sets that have come out. All he (Cruddance) had to do with the Nid dex is give them some more weapon varriants and anti-mech options whether it be faster cc units thru deepstrike or w/e or even with a long ranged 'pimped up' biovore. Instead..well..you know the result. And I dont have to play test it to figure out if its terrible or not. 1) it lost its first battle in WD and 2) Althought I'm new to these forums, I am not new to WH40k. Been playing nids since 2nd edition and have gone thru every change, better and worst. And these units..simply are not worth their stats.

Crevab
12-20-2009, 03:23 AM
since the points for those all are pretty nailed down... since details aren't clear... in case they don't have a choice.


Wait wait wait. You haven't actually seen the 'dex and you're just going off the same rumors as everyone else?
How can "playtesting" that be any kind of valid indicator:confused:

Rusty Nail
12-20-2009, 06:30 AM
The thing is, when GW playtest a codex, (and despite what a lot of people think there will be a load of playtesting before release), they test the whole army not just individual choices within the codex - (as an aside, it's why a lot of people who take lists from the net can't win with them because they don't understand the priciples behind the choices and don't see the whole picture), hence why all this moaning and hot air before people start playing with the whole codex is just that - moaning and hot air.
It happens with every codex, albeit mostly that it's on the codex creep part of the spectrum rather than units being nerfed, anyone remember "Space Wolves are so broken" , "Jaws of the World Wolf ruins the game" etc, etc ...
Can I suggest waiting till you've had a good look at the codex, played a few games with/against 'Nids with players who know what they're doing before condeming anybody and the world at large?

Alternatively if you find it more fun to go off half baked then go ahead it's a free world.

Herald of Nurgle
12-20-2009, 06:35 AM
The thing is, when GW playtest a codex, (and despite what a lot of people think there will be a load of playtesting before release), they test the whole army not just individual choices within the codex - (as an aside, it's why a lot of people who take lists from the net can't win with them because they don't understand the priciples behind the choices and don't see the whole picture), hence why all this moaning and hot air before people start playing with the whole codex is just that - moaning and hot air.
It happens with every codex, albeit mostly that it's on the codex creep part of the spectrum rather than units being nerfed, anyone remember "Space Wolves are so broken" , "Jaws of the World Wolf ruins the game" etc, etc ...
Can I suggest waiting till you've had a good look at the codex, played a few games with/against 'Nids with players who know what they're doing before condeming anybody and the world at large?

Alternatively if you find it more fun to go off half baked then go ahead it's a free world.
TERVIGONS ARE BROKEN! CARNIFEXES ARE BROKEN! OLD ADVERSARY IS BROKEN! SHADOW IN THE WARP IS BROKEN! INDIVIDUAL GAUNTS ARE BROKEN! TRYGONS IN REGULAR GAMES ARE BROKEN! YOUR FACE IS BROKEN! MY NEW ARMY IS NERFED! THEY COMPLETELY NERFED LICTORS! WHY DID GW DO THIS! MY LIFE IS RUINED! TYRANIDS ARE NOT MY FATHER! HIVE TYRANTS ARE OVERPOWERED! TROOP CHOICE BROODLORDS ARE TOO STRONG! TOO MANY TYRANID WARRIORS! I DON'T EAT PUDDING!

*gasp*

All this and more than the Nids are released.

Duke
12-20-2009, 10:37 AM
TERVIGONS ARE BROKEN! CARNIFEXES ARE BROKEN! OLD ADVERSARY IS BROKEN! SHADOW IN THE WARP IS BROKEN! INDIVIDUAL GAUNTS ARE BROKEN! TRYGONS IN REGULAR GAMES ARE BROKEN! YOUR FACE IS BROKEN! MY NEW ARMY IS NERFED! THEY COMPLETELY NERFED LICTORS! WHY DID GW DO THIS! MY LIFE IS RUINED! TYRANIDS ARE NOT MY FATHER! HIVE TYRANTS ARE OVERPOWERED! TROOP CHOICE BROODLORDS ARE TOO STRONG! TOO MANY TYRANID WARRIORS! I DON'T EAT PUDDING!

*gasp*

All this and more than the Nids are released.

erm... ahhh... Ummm... ok, right!

I would be screaming all psycho like if I didn't like pudding either, Especially if Tyranids weren't my father.

Duke

RocketRollRebel
12-20-2009, 10:41 AM
TERVIGONS ARE BROKEN! CARNIFEXES ARE BROKEN! OLD ADVERSARY IS BROKEN! SHADOW IN THE WARP IS BROKEN! INDIVIDUAL GAUNTS ARE BROKEN! TRYGONS IN REGULAR GAMES ARE BROKEN! YOUR FACE IS BROKEN! MY NEW ARMY IS NERFED! THEY COMPLETELY NERFED LICTORS! WHY DID GW DO THIS! MY LIFE IS RUINED! TYRANIDS ARE NOT MY FATHER! HIVE TYRANTS ARE OVERPOWERED! TROOP CHOICE BROODLORDS ARE TOO STRONG! TOO MANY TYRANID WARRIORS! I DON'T EAT PUDDING!

*gasp*

All this and more than the Nids are released.

ZOMG BROKEN WAFFLE FRIES!

But really people. We haven't seen it! I'm really not worried about it at all. I've been playing 40k for about 4 years and aside from DA I have yet to see a 40k codex that makes an army totally OP or that completely ruins the army. (I know some CSM players will disagree with that)

Speaking of DA remember when THEY were broken? "OMG double wing! We're screwed!". Everything is going to be just fine.:)

DarkLink
12-20-2009, 01:23 PM
Fexes are actally OK, just different. I don't think they're durable enough for their point, or impactful enough for their points, against canny opponents.


Ironic how we all got worked up over something we really didn't disagree about, isn't it?


TERVIGONS ARE BROKEN! CARNIFEXES ARE BROKEN! OLD ADVERSARY IS BROKEN! SHADOW IN THE WARP IS BROKEN! INDIVIDUAL GAUNTS ARE BROKEN! TRYGONS IN REGULAR GAMES ARE BROKEN! YOUR FACE IS BROKEN! MY NEW ARMY IS NERFED! THEY COMPLETELY NERFED LICTORS! WHY DID GW DO THIS! MY LIFE IS RUINED! TYRANIDS ARE NOT MY FATHER! HIVE TYRANTS ARE OVERPOWERED! TROOP CHOICE BROODLORDS ARE TOO STRONG! TOO MANY TYRANID WARRIORS! I DON'T EAT PUDDING!

*gasp*

All this and more than the Nids are released.

Grey Knights have never feared Carnifexes much, due to all our high I str 6 attacks. Terminators in particular eat Carnifexes for lunch.

Hive Tyrants are tougher to deal with, but that's what Land Raiders with lascannons are for, especially now that Hive Guard are supposedly more expensive.

And most everything else can be dealt with through judicial use of Land Raider Crusaders and lots and lots of Incinerators. Just make sure to kill the Genestealers first.