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Forteller
12-15-2009, 04:25 PM
Ello Kids,

Today's topic is razorbacks!

I am planning for a whacky roster 1250 involving at least 4-5 of em and i was wondering:

Equipment Choices and Infantry Choices:

Major contestants are

Lasscannon with Plasma Gun/Assault Cannon/Twin Linked Lasscannon/Twin Linked Flamer

I ve been thinking of keeping 2 as Lasscannon/Plasma and turning 2 into Heavy Flamers,defending objectives
and/or my base and burning down any infantry that might pop due to transports or pods etc while the other two keep the opponent at bay.

You always have the choice of a 5 man tactical or a 5 man devastator squad but i thought,although tacticals are the cheaper option and thus you can fit more of em,that sternguards with razorbacks should be equally as fun!

Discuss Away!

Nabterayl
12-15-2009, 04:35 PM
None of the Razorback options fill a hole that can't be filled with other options ... do you have any preliminary thoughts on what else you want in your army?

Duke
12-15-2009, 04:35 PM
I always keep my razorback simple... Twin linked heavy bolters. Give the heavy weapons to the combat squaded tac marines.

Duke

DarkLink
12-15-2009, 06:28 PM
I think the general consensus is, unless you have a specific need for some of the guns, like an extra TL Lascannon or whatnot, stick with the TL Heavy Bolter. It's cheap and actually has a chance of making its points back on its own, too. The others are expensive enough that they become a bit bigger of a target.


On a side note, I just had a thought. What if, rather than having a strength limit to determine defensive weapons, we simply used the Heavy/Assault property. So any and all Assault weapons would be defensive weapons, while Heavy weapons would not. Rapid fire would probably count as Assault weapons for these purposes, or treated the same as Infantry.

Just a thought.

Duke
12-15-2009, 07:51 PM
That would make a lot of sense I suppose, my problem would still b the same... In militaristic purposes the heavy bolter and assault cannons on landraiders are defensive weapons meant to keep off pesky infantry. With your ruling hvy flamers, hvy bolters and assault cannons would still be main weapons.

I think that defensive weapons should be at st 5, not st 4... Maybe landraiders could have a special rule that allows defensive weapons to be st 5

DarkLink
12-15-2009, 08:49 PM
That would make a lot of sense I suppose, my problem would still b the same... In militaristic purposes the heavy bolter and assault cannons on landraiders are defensive weapons meant to keep off pesky infantry. With your ruling hvy flamers, hvy bolters and assault cannons would still be main weapons.

I think that defensive weapons should be at st 5, not st 4... Maybe landraiders could have a special rule that allows defensive weapons to be st 5

Heavy Flamers would be defensive. Heavy Flamers are assault weapons, while Assault Cannons are heavy weapons :rolleyes:. Regardless, I think doing things this way would make more sense than the current defensive weapon rules.

Chumbalaya
12-15-2009, 08:50 PM
S5 defensive weapons, suck it Eldar :P

I'm gonna second DarkLink on the original question, unless you're going for an army of cheap mini-Predators, TLHB is cheap and handy.

RocketRollRebel
12-15-2009, 09:11 PM
S5 defensive weapons, suck it Eldar :P

I'm gonna second DarkLink on the original question, unless you're going for an army of cheap mini-Predators, TLHB is cheap and handy.

I'm gonna 3rd Darklink. I think S5 defensive weps is the only thing that I miss about 4th.

Shadoq
12-15-2009, 10:15 PM
I miss S5 D weaps on my Russes :(

About Razors, recently my buddy has been spamming TL Lascannon razors like crazy with 5 man squads inside with meltas and flamers alongside a unit of Termies in a regular LR and hq of some sort.

They have done very well against my Mech Guard but against more mobile armies like my forth coming biker army and existing Templars, I can see it having trouble very quickly.

Don't expect them to last long if you do run them. I've learned to hit them with repeated 'nade launcher shots and the occasional melta burst and down they go or get a weapon destroyed.

Forteller
12-16-2009, 01:09 AM
Ladies and Gents,

My logic was and still is,to provide my enemy with MANY MANY MANY armor valued targets,he can choose only couple per turn,not all! Even if he gets the "dangerous" unit,i still pack 10 others,target priority will be a *****!

My 1250 roster would go along the lines of:

HQ

1 Librarian with Null Zone and Smite

Troops

4 x 5 Tactical Squads

Dedicated Transports

5 Razorbacks (1 with Assault Cannon.1 with Heavy Bolter 2 with Lasscannon and Plasma Gun)

Elites

5 Sternguard with Plasma Guns and Combi Plasma

Heavy Support

2 Vindicators

Fast Attack

2 Land Speeders with 1 Multi Melta and 1 Heavy Flamer Each

Chumbalaya
12-16-2009, 06:47 AM
You may want to look into the Maximum Overdrive lists Elek-Stay put up recently.

Razorspam can be very deadly, but I think SW end up doing it better since GH squads are cheaper and can field special weapons at 5 men.

Rune Priest w/ Thunderclap, Tempest Fury
2x 3 Wolf Guard-2 combi-meltas, Razorback w/ las/plas
4x GH-flamer, Razobackr w/ las/plas
2x Typhoons
2x 3 Long Fangs-2 missile launchers, Rhinos

1248

You've got 6 Razorbacks, 2 Typhoons and 2 pseudo-Razors (2 Long Fangs can fire out). Everything is mobile, flexible, and disposable. The best part is, the units inside actually pose a threat too and can bring the pain even if their ride is nuked.

Duke
12-16-2009, 10:31 AM
I love Razorback spam... In most of my lists I don't bring less that three and will often bring about 5. They just piss people off. They don't do much individually, but when you pour 6 twinlinked Heavy Bolters into a Daemon Prince watch him fall.

Duke

Melissia
12-16-2009, 12:16 PM
It's probably more viable than those all immolator lists that some Sisters players try.

Chumbalaya
12-16-2009, 02:12 PM
Mass Immo would be pretty nasty and similar to all Razor, just burnier (and faithier and meltier).

DarkLink
12-16-2009, 03:09 PM
Mass Immo would be pretty nasty and similar to all Razor, just burnier (and faithier and meltier).

And expensivier. However, Chumby, in your list above you mention Long Fangs firing out of their razorbacks. Did you mean Rhinos, because IIRC razorbacks don't have any firing points.

Duke
12-16-2009, 03:32 PM
Im pretty sure that he meant Rhino.

Duke

EmperorEternalXIX
12-16-2009, 04:31 PM
I hate razors, personally. I think they're stupidly expensive and their transport capacity is rubbish. In a world of 55pt Chimeras I am really appalled that these things are considered viable. My personal opinion is that all of these weapons should be 5-25pt upgrades for the Rhino, personally.

I will advise heavily against investing points on these weapons. They are stupidly expensive; in your list you have paid almost an entire squads' worth of points for them, not to mention the fact that you have halved your possible scoring units and are carrying minimal squads who can't be armed with anything more than a combi weapon.

The enemy will have a field day against this list because much of it is armor 11. A lot of dedicated anti-tank stuff is going to find itself with no big enemy to pour fire on and instead it will be a shooting gallery as each of your transports gets shattered by high strength weaponry meant for AV14 stuff.

If you have your heart set on this, don't EVER take the lascannon/plasma option. Put quite simply, neither can ever fire alongside the other on the move. Paying for two weapons and getting to only use one for the whole game isn't very efficient.

As also mentioned, any of these vehicles will be just another Rhino after a single weapon destroyed result.

If you have your heart set on this, keep them HBs. I wouldn't even dream of recommending this tactic though.

Chumbalaya
12-16-2009, 04:43 PM
Yep, it was Rhinos.

DarkLink
12-16-2009, 06:07 PM
Yep, it was Rhinos.

Yeah, I figured it was a typo

Chumbalaya
12-16-2009, 07:18 PM
Your face is a typo.

DarkLink
12-16-2009, 09:36 PM
Your face is a typo.

Heh, that gave me a good laugh:D

Duke
12-16-2009, 11:49 PM
What made me laugh was the reason for editing

DarkLink
12-17-2009, 02:22 PM
What made me laugh was the reason for editing

Hahahahaha, I missed that the first time. That made me laugh even more:D

MarshalAdamar
12-17-2009, 04:51 PM
Here is one idea.

The basic premise is to have the HQ with the vets, use the las plas together roll up 6" drop off the vets from las plas 1 and the tac squad from las plas 2 then rapid fire both squads and both TL plasma guns. That should devastate most MEQ units, if you get charged you have the captain with a 2+ armor save and a Str 6 power weapon and a vet with a power fist.

The two TL heavy flamers move forward waiting to pounce on a unit. Say a boyz mob. Two TL heavy flamers cut even 'ard boys armor save, the flamers add to the death, even more so if you hit a unit of regular boys or IG. And rapid fire the rest of the bolters. There shouldn't be much left.

This list is all about concentrated fire power, when you attack an enemy unit you had better make sure that it’s dead because a 6 man tac squad can't put up much of fight against a large opponent.

1250 all razor back army

HQ

Captain, relic blade, artificer armor = 145

TROOPS

Tactical squad X6 w flamer = 106
Razorback w X armor, Twin linked heavy flamer = 80
186

Tactical squad X6 w flamer = 106
Razorback w X armor, Twin linked heavy flamer = 80
186

Tactical squad X6 w plasma gun, Vet with plasma pistol and power fist = 161
Razorback w X armor, Las cannon/TL plasma gun = 90
251

Vanguard vet squad X5 w 2 plasma gun = 145
Razorback w X armor, Las cannon/TL plasma gun = 90
235

1254

Chumbalaya
12-17-2009, 07:12 PM
Tacticals can't have special weapons unless it's 10 men. Sternguard > Vanguard.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-17-2009, 08:08 PM
I still don't know why anyone runs these damn things.

Do people think it's really worth nearly 400 points for 5 heavy weapons (not including the infantry you need to buy who will be the worst equipped troops in 40k barring their power armor) mounted on the second or third easiest to destroy vehicle in the game, that you can't assault out of most of the time and can't fire out of ever?

Forteller
12-17-2009, 11:59 PM
Emperor i cant speak about others,but with when i go in my local tournament up to 1750 points i am gonna go play 16 models with armor values in ONE roster,its not about playing razorbacks,its about giving SOOOO many AV targets that target priority will make my opponent tear his hair out! Right now in the 1250 i am playing 9 AV targets and the opponents usually carry 3-4 +7 str weapons,they wont target the razorbacks cause they re low on the priority list,they ll go for the vindicators first,and that means that the first salvo from the backs will be devastating.......................my 2 stupid cents anyhow....

EmperorEternalXIX
12-18-2009, 03:20 AM
I suppose that makes sense locally, anyway.

Where I am, the idea of taking a lot of vehicles doesn't help much anyway. Everyone is geared to fight mech lists. It doesn't matter if it's got a heavy bolter or a dinosaur-launching death ray on the top of it; those rhino+1 razorbacks are going to die.

I guess what bothers me is that the vehicle and the squad's points often add up to the same as a 10 man squad equipped with full gear in a rhino. Every other army takes smaller units in order to field more of them but the SM ultimately end up with the same setup on either end of the spectrum.

therealjohnny5
12-18-2009, 04:24 PM
well i like to take a RD with TLLas along a Devestator unit as it gives that additional TL shot. But then i pay out the pooper for my Dev squads and usually run 2 Las and 2 PC's in each...once i ran 4 Las and a RB with TLLas...it was ridiculous but awesome...nothing could stand in my way...especially since i had a 10 man Dev sqaud...haha wounds to burn...So what's your Target priority there? the dev squad or the RB...sucks either way....

i feel you man.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-18-2009, 07:45 PM
I would have just killed the entire rest of your army instead and let you watch me pass 4+ cover saves all game against 5 shots.

After all in that configuration you would have spent an obscene 400ish points on that squad.

MarshalAdamar
12-20-2009, 10:51 AM
Tacticals can't have special weapons unless it's 10 men. Sternguard > Vanguard.

Oops, I just checked my codex, and by George your right! (Can you tell I don't play vanilla marines?)

Sorry, for that list then you'd have to use the extra point to beef up say the sgts with plasma pistols or something.

That sucks, who thought that was a good idea?

I still like the idea of TL flamers on the razorbacks; I'm going that way for my space wolves.

Thanks for the correction!

Valkerie
12-20-2009, 11:26 AM
Oops, I just checked my codex, and by George your right! (Can you tell I don't play vanilla marines?)

Sorry, for that list then you'd have to use the extra point to beef up say the sgts with plasma pistols or something.

That sucks, who thought that was a good idea?

I still like the idea of TL flamers on the razorbacks; I'm going that way for my space wolves.

Thanks for the correction!
It came about because too many people in the last edition cried about how broken it was to have a 5 man SM squad with a heavy weapon and a special weapon. Be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it. Now, I have a ten man squad, with a heavy weapon and a special weapon, bought as one troop choice, that can be broken into two fire teams. The heavy weapon team stands and shoots you at long range, while the special weapon team maneuvers and shoots you at closer range. I now also have two scoring units for the price of one. So the problem of having small squads with lots of firepower has been to make them large squads that can be broken into fire teams, thus giving you twice as many scoring units. Personally, I'm not sure that really helps a whole lot.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-20-2009, 12:25 PM
"Lots" of firepower is a relative thing.

One heavy weapon pelting from afar does so little potential damage that largely it can be ignored, or worse than ignored, "walked through" which is just embarrassing. What other army in the game has squads so pathetic that the opponent will actually give it every opportunity to attack him simply because its damage output is so negligible?

The combat squads helps with scoring but ultimately the units you create are so fragile and worthless damage-wise that they will quickly be blown away from any objectives. You can't use combat squads effectively on offense because they are gimped, and you can't use them too well defensively because a stiff breeze will remove them from the objective their camping.

The irony is that now, many squads have tons worse weapon configurations. Guard squads walk around with 3 plasma guns, a plasma pistol, and a lascannon, all of which can shoot out of the back out of one of the best offensive transports in the game, AND is a scoring unit with BS4. I fail to see how it is okay for the guard to do this, but not for the Space Marines, but such is the nature of the game right now and why I hung up my Codex SM chapter...the ghosts of 4th edition whining still haunt them severely. The Power Fist nerf in 5th, the Rending nerf in 5th, the Codex itself and its HUGE nerf to what you can do with a five man squad, the fact that the Marines' point cost got increased...all of these are done entirely due to crybabying en masse about 4th ed marine armies.

I am firmly of the mind that about 30% of fifth edition's final goal was to nerf the marines.

As a direct result we have access to the ****tiest offensive transport in the game: The Razorcrap. It costs 25-30% more than a fully kitted Chimera, it has the least amount of heavy weapons an offensive transport can have in this game, it is oxymoronic (like the Las/Plasma variant in which the tank must remain completely still to utilize both weapons...was that necessary? Is it REALLY that OP?), and ultimately unless it's used to spam TL spazcannons across the game board to deal with light mech armies it is utterly worthless garbage.

Classic Marines. "You get X, but you lose A, B, C, D, and E."

Just once I want the Codex Astartes to seem like it gives some kind of ADVANTAGE in battle instead of a series of poorly disguised balance handicaps.

crazy_irish
12-21-2009, 02:35 AM
Boy, i did not know, that there where still some marine players who still cried over the 5the edition and the bad *** Marines Codex...

Jeah Marines got 1P more "expensive" and what did they gain?

And letting just 1 5man Squad stand on an objektive is your own fault. You have an Army not a pair of commando units.

think about the special characters and their abilities and than again think about how 5th Edition ruined SM.
............

and what is wrong with the razorback and its twin linked HB. I guess that didn't fit into your statment.

Duke
12-21-2009, 10:02 AM
Wow, emp. A little peeved are we?

I think your discounting the razorback and marine squads too quickly. I can tell you that nobody ignores my Multi Melta Combat Squads, and I have so much armor on the table that it takes a few turns to get through it (even against "prepared lists"). Sure on an individual level razorbacks aren't the best transport in the game, but I really think your talking from opinion, not fact. Other than that, cheers mate!

Duke

EmperorEternalXIX
12-21-2009, 11:28 AM
Duke, if you do the math out, all the Razorback really does is cost roughly the same as a more durable and more well-equipped ten man squad in a Rhino (other than the cheap heavy bolter variant). It takes away any sort of offensive punch your troops unit might have had except the sergeant, it prevents you from taking advantage of the free weaponry offered to a ten man squad, and in the case of the omnipresent Vulkan list, those weapons are twin linked, which makes them an even more costly downside.

When you add that up with the fact that all you get for your trouble is one oxymoronic weapon (the heavy flamer turret is probably never going to fire; the LC/PG variant can't use both guns unless it's not moving; the most obviously cool thing for them to have is a multimelta and that's not an option). The TLLC and the TLAC are the only variants worth using and even then, you have committed nearly the value of the vehicle in points to get a very easily neutralized SINGLE weapon. I don't know about you but I don't like the idea of structuring my list entirely around idea simply because of the fact that while it is a lot of armor, it is also easy to crack, and each crack really shuts down what you pay those points for.

The idea of a large volume of armor isn't a bad one, but your razorback list and my rhino list probably don't have a very different volume of armor at all. This works for Chimera spam because A.) The chimera has more weapons, and thus more weapon destroyed results before it is no longer a threat; B.) the Chimera is often able to just stand still and you have to fire on its front armor, which is decent; C.) the Imperial Guard lists cropping up have a million vehicles besides the Chimera that are all horribly lethal and dangerous. You also have to consider the fact that a million guys can fire out of the back of the frigging thing, too. 5 Chimeras are able to engage 10 targets; 5 razorbacks are able to engage 5 targets, for twice the cost, with less weapons, and comparatively worse armor.

The Space Marines have none of those advantages, and any result on the vehicle damage table is going to render a Razorback nearly worthless. The same goes for the Vindicator and the Whirlwind, too, which is why people who field these seemingly decent vehicles often find they are not critical to the game's outcome where I'm from.

If people don't ignore your super-short ranged multimelta squads Duke, I think that is a fault of players in your area. Even on foot, I could dance around a combat squad without a lascannon or ML all day, and I deal with them only if they are on an objective. If they are miles away from objectives in cover that will slow them...who cares? They will just be trying to walk and use their worthless bolters for two to four turns anyway.

@Crazy Irish: The Razorback's twin linked heavy bolter is barely better than a bolter and in the world of the omnipresent 4+ cover save it is pretty worthless ultimately, being a single weapon. You trade 10 bolter shots, a couple of plasma shots, and a heavy weapon shot, just to get a single easily-neutralized heavy bolter. A 10 man squad in a Rhino with full weapons and a fist costs 230 points, and a 6 man squad with a fist in one of the Razor variants costs about 10 points less. I think it is pretty obvious that a Razorback squad from the standard SM codex is one of the most poorly armed and least durable units in the game. The idea that Matt Ward wrote this codex with the thought that we would be storming enemy lines with a heavy bolter and 5 bolter guys and somehow winning the day is as stupefying as it is insulting. No other unit in the game suffers as many bizarre limitations as the standard Space Marine; Combat Tactics does nothing but help you try to ensure you run away...yeah, that's why I started playing the Space Marines. To run away a lot. Right?

I despise the combat squads rules immensely, and believe they were a horrible addition (again, a change intended to nerf the space marines, and nothing more). There is NOTHING IN THE GAME that I don't think could handily dismantle a basic combat squad from the SM codex. Nothing.

I am not so much mad that the 5th ed codex carries these poor flaws (after all it was to be expected, they had a guy who hates Ultramarines write the codex and you could tell the whole way he barely gave two damns). What upsets me more is the bizarre usage of the Codex Astartes to justify these odd nerfs. Why can't they have two specials or two heavies? Why are the costs so retardedly different (a lascannon in a tac squad is 10 points, in a devastator squad it's more than double that?). It's all just idiotic. The combat squads rule, the combat tactics rule, the weapons limits outside of ten men...all idiotic.

DarkLink
12-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Duke, if you do the math out, all the Razorback really does is cost roughly the same as a more durable and more well-equipped ten man squad in a Rhino (other than the cheap heavy bolter variant).


Only the ones with upgraded weapons. HB Razorbacks are cheap, with decent firepower. If I was planning on combat-squadding Marines I'd take one for their transport to get a round or two of heavy bolter fire for 5 pts. The rest of them are really expensive, though.

Duke
12-21-2009, 02:41 PM
First off, in this game it is too easy to say "X is better than Y, so X is crap,"

It was really hard to finish that rant because your logic went spinning off into "Ad hoc," land.

1. I only use the TL Heavy Bolter
2. I usually always combat squad... Why would I use a vehicle that can transport ten men when I only need 5 moved around?!
3. for ten points, I don't care if all it takes is "one weapon destroyed result," because the Rhino starts out worthless from that perspective.
4. Assuming you could dance around my squads... Sure, in a vaccum where all I have is one cmobat squad you could dance around it, but on an actual table where fields of movement and fire are limited it is a different story (for both armies) . Your also assuming I don't have overlapping fields of fire, and a 48" diamater is not "Super short range."
5. your logic on using the IG codex to say that they SM codex is inferior is a fallacy... Imperial guard is not the rule, you cannot use one example to establish a rule.
6. Cover saves make high powered weapons "worthless." I don't care about cover saves, I use my Hvy bolters many times to put wounds on high Toughness models like Daemon Princes, and if they want to take the cover save over their armour save then have at it!

Sure, I would love to have better AV on my razorbacks and Rhinos... I do think that the emperors finest are given the best gear, except when it comes to transports. And I don't think that marines do the best mech spam in the game.

With all that said there isn't enough evidence to convince me of your arguments above.

However,

I do completly agree that it makes no sense that there is such a price discripency in the heavy wepons points between Tac and Dev Squads. I also think that tac squads should be able to take 2 assault weapons or one heavy and one assault. Chaos can take 2 assault weapons... Its almost like the big G said "Hmmm.... I think I know why Horus went traitor... Its cause he was taking two assault weapons! I should exclude that from codex astartes." lol

Cheers,

Duke

DarkLink
12-21-2009, 04:24 PM
1. I only use the TL Heavy Bolter
2. I usually always combat squad... Why would I use a vehicle that can transport ten men when I only need 5 moved around?!
3. for ten points, I don't care if all it takes is "one weapon destroyed result," because the Rhino starts out worthless from that perspective.
4. Assuming you could dance around my squads... Sure, in a vaccum where all I have is one cmobat squad you could dance around it, but on an actual table where fields of movement and fire are limited it is a different story (for both armies) . Your also assuming I don't have overlapping fields of fire, and a 48" diamater is not "Super short range."
5. your logic on using the IG codex to say that they SM codex is inferior is a fallacy... Imperial guard is not the rule, you cannot use one example to establish a rule.
6. Cover saves make high powered weapons "worthless." I don't care about cover saves, I use my Hvy bolters many times to put wounds on high Toughness models like Daemon Princes, and if they want to take the cover save over their armour save then have at it!

However,

I do completly agree that it makes no sense that there is such a price discripency in the heavy wepons points between Tac and Dev Squads. I also think that tac squads should be able to take 2 assault weapons or one heavy and one assault. Chaos can take 2 assault weapons... Its almost like the big G said "Hmmm.... I think I know why Horus went traitor... Its cause he was taking two assault weapons! I should exclude that from codex astartes." lol

Cheers,

Duke

Right, I'd say that 5pts for a few rounds of potential TL heavy bolter shots is definately worth it.

On the other hand, the other options are quite overpriced.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if GW's though process was this: "SM's will always sell good anyways, so we can make other armies really powerful to draw other players to those armies and increase those sales."

Duke
12-21-2009, 06:33 PM
I agree 100% that the other options are way overpriced! And I imagine your thoughts on GW are spot on.

Duke

EmperorEternalXIX
12-21-2009, 09:38 PM
Duke you make a lot of good points, as if you are using the heavy bolter variant much of my reasoning doesn't apply.

When it comes to Razorbaks, though, I'm not just meaning to sound like the usual X is crap compared to Y arguments. In my opinion, the amount of effort and hamstringing you have to put yourself through in order to even viably use the Razorback (i.e. handicapping your squads without extra men or weapons) is an issue that, combined with the cost and the relative weakness of the unit inside, makes it really a lot less worthwhile. I believe when it comes to Razorbacks that they are pretty much one of the worst choices in the game for a dedicated transport with firing threat capacity, simply because of the fact that our troops excel most in close quarters. Subsequently, needing to gun it at cruising speed more often than not, I find that I am rarely if EVER in a position to use the storm bolters on my rhinos simply because they are so busy doing things like popping smoke or moving into melta or plasma range, etc. So for me, I can't imagine paying points for a heavy weapon that won't be shooting for most of the game. I feel like a lot of SM weapon options on vehicles really suffer from a "Well here's my one shot, better hope it's epic!" kind of problem.

While you have a big point about the combat squad's radius of effectiveness, you must also account for how much of that is off the table, inaccessible to shoot at because of terrain or the need to move first, etc. Much of the time moving toward a combat squad with anything even remotely killy will force it to move for defensive reasons and the heavy weapon will be silent until that marine is bludgeoning some assault troops with it.

DarkLink
12-21-2009, 10:28 PM
Now here's the real question. Assuming everything else stays the same, what should each option be priced at, using the 40pt tl heavy bolter razorback as a baseline?

For reference, the various upgrade options, with my opinion as to appropriate cost (which I only came up with on the spot, so they're probably off a little):
Lascannon/TL plasma gun....+15pts
TL Lascannon...................+15pts
TL Assault Cannon............+20pts
TL Heavy Flamer..............+10pts

Duke
12-23-2009, 12:32 AM
Maybe that is where we differ... I actually use my heavy bolters every turn. I call it scoot and shoot!

mercer
12-23-2009, 05:18 AM
Razorback with heavy bolter is the tool of my trade. Provides on the move fire power, can provide fire support for the squad inside as they're a small number. Also good for tackling light armour.

Other setup I'm warming up to is the lascannon & plasma gun combo. Good for tackling monstrous creatures really, so I would take if I play against those a lot.

DarkLink
12-23-2009, 02:01 PM
If only the forgeworld razorback for inquisitorial stormtroopers was cheaper... Forgeworld seems to think that upgrading a heavy bolter to a psycannon is worth 20pts. All you get is +1 str, really. Ignoring invulnerable saves essentially never comes into play.

Papa Nurgle
12-29-2009, 12:27 PM
I like using Razorbacks when I field Pedro. I allocate 2 Razorbacks to my Sternguard Veteran Squads and then position the Veterans in strategic locations to utilize their heavy weapons. It basically gives me 2 extra Twin Linked Laz Cannons at my disposal. I then use 2 other razor backs for troops, spliiting them into 5 man squads, leaving their heavy weapons in the back too. The benefit to the Razorback's IMO is that you can run them emoty and it puts an extra TL Laz Cannon on the field. You can never have too many Laz Cannons around...especially when the IG can run 9 Leman's now.

Duke
12-29-2009, 01:17 PM
I haven't used the TL las much. I generally will use the Heavy Bolter variant, and combat squad a lascannon. I just haven't been too pleased with the overall performance of the TL las to include them. Have yours lived for any prolonged periods? or are they taken out early?

Duke

therealjohnny5
12-29-2009, 02:07 PM
I haven't used the TL las much. I generally will use the Heavy Bolter variant, and combat squad a lascannon. I just haven't been too pleased with the overall performance of the TL las to include them. Have yours lived for any prolonged periods? or are they taken out early?

Duke

the ones i run with my Dev squads almost alway seem to do their job and hang around most game. I understand lots of Emperor's issues and agree to some capacity. My problem with that line of thinking is that i like the marines, so i take the good and the bad, so now it's up to me to figure a way to make things viable and successful in play regardless of the down side. Hey, if i beat you with something that kinda sucks, better for me! lol :p

As for my RB's, rarely will i take them with tac squads, though i do combat squad sometimes, i agree with emperor though that sometimes 5 guys in the back with one heavy weapon can sometimes fail. but it all depends on game play as you say Duke. My preference is to Drop pod in or zipp around in Rhinos, put Devs, or command squads in a RB. My primary use of RB's has always been to drop one by or near my Dev squad, (yes a very expensive unit), I typically equip them with 2 Las and 2 PC's with an RB beside and a couple extra guys in for wounds. The issue most armies i've played with i see is they have to spend time shooting at both threats, and the challenge is which to choose.7-10 guys in cover with 4hvy weapons, or a tank with AV, and neither option is great. Shoot my RB great, i still have 4 hvy shots coming at you, shoot my squad, great kill the bolters...and even to make it more irritating take a tech marine and park him near by to fix wpn destroyed.

i'm just saying that's a combo that has worked time and time again. I do tend to play a more assault oriented style though. probably should be playing BA's but fell for black birds instead of red blood...lol:D

Duke
12-29-2009, 03:48 PM
I don't know if the techmarine is worth it to fix a weapon destroyed... However, I like the techmarine to bolster the defenses on the Dev squad... 3+ cover is nice!

Duke

DarkLink
12-29-2009, 04:49 PM
I don't know if the techmarine is worth it to fix a weapon destroyed... However, I like the techmarine to bolster the defenses on the Dev squad... 3+ cover is nice!

Duke

And Dev squads pair up well with Razorbacks

Sir Biscuit
12-29-2009, 08:03 PM
Actually, I think Razorback's are a hell of a deal for lascannons, and as a precision advance vehicle.

At first glance, they are quite pricey, but lets be honest, everyone pays through the nose for heavy weapons. Just look at what the did to Devastators. :P But when you start price comparing around the rest of the codex, they're actually kind of a good deal. I think the first thing you have to do is look at your other options for fielding lascannons in the Space Marine army:

Sternguard
Dreadnoughts
Legion of the Damned
Tactical Marines
Devastators
Land Raiders

Sternguard are probably the best option for lascannons, as they get up to two on the cheap, and you get special issue ammunition as well as combi-weapons with them. Plus the hardness of marine infantry. It always amuses me that Sternguard are basically what devastators should be.

Hellfire (ranged) Dreadnoughts always seemed like kinda a raw deal to me. Their lascannon pretty much has to couple with a ML, and your looking at the cost equivalent of two heavy weapon Razorbacks. I know people swear by the Double-Autocannon Dread, but it's still only a bit cheaper, not much harder to kill, slower, and has no transport capacity compared to the two heavy Razorbacks it could be buying. Plus, it takes up an elite slot.

I think we're all aware that Legion of the Damned aren't great, and why would you give them a lascannon when you could have a relentless, deep striking multi-melta instead?

Tactical Marines "cheap" lascannon is an illusion, I think. Since the lascannon marine must necessarily hang out with four other regular marines, it's really more of an investment than it appears. You're basically condemning those marines to shooting at things they can't really hurt along with the lascannon, or you're overkilling individuals with the lascannon. It's an investment approaching one hundred points. I'm not sure why you'd take a lascannon on a squad instead of a plasma cannon, but discussion on exact load outs are for another time. If your that desperate for a lascannon, buy Sternguard. Trust me, you'll be much happier.

Devastators are overpriced. I mean like "holy crap" overpriced.

Land Raiders are great, and a mainstay of any aggressive army, but you're likely only bringing one or two, and if you have a more shooty army, they're kinda a waste of points that you could be spending on more guns in different places.
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So, after all these options, what are we left with? Razorbacks! Now, a bit on how to use effectively use them.

First off, razorbacks are NOT rhinos. If you're looking for a transport to get your whole army into the enemies face, you should be taking rhinos, putting ten men in them, and getting up there with smoke. Razorbacks are for an army that focuses more on shooting than assault, and needs a transport to capture objectives with small squads late into the game, and deliver small units to critical locations. No assaulty or aggressive short range marine army in its right mind would take razorbacks over rhinos.

When looking at razorbacks, you're basically looking at two types: support for an infantry advance, and anti-tank. The first type is the classic twin linked heavy bolter razorback, and the second is either the twin-linked lascannon variant, or the lascannon/twin linked plasma gun version.

The heavy bolter razorback is a great deal for the price: you get a twin linked heavy bolter on a decent, well armored transport for on the cheap. This is the one to take if you plan on throwing marines into the enemies face. True, it doesn't have firing ports, but it effectively adds a heavy weapon to the squad, and if it's driving forward to deliver infantry anyway; they'll be getting out, so it doesn't need them. Since it's inexpensive and generally low damage output, these tend to have very high survivability after dropping a squad. It's great for obnoxiously tank shocking objectives last turn, and creating walls for the squad it's dropped, while providing a bit of support. Easy, cheap, reliable. I call that the mark of a great weapon.

The other version, the tank hunting variants, are a bit different. They are NOT good for delivering infantry into the enemy, because their damage output is so high, so they are always prime targets. Even empty, the enemy will be shooting at them, and since they're driving up, 9/10ths of the time they won't be in cover. What follows is a dead transport and a slogging squad.

Instead, these are ideal counter-charge transports. For an army based on this concept, they are a godsend. They give you needed long-range anti-tank firepower on your first few turns, and can continue afterwords to move up infantry squads to claim objectives and counter-attack after the enemy has been weakened. When using these, it's important to remember a few things:

Don't bring them as your only vehicle. Of course they're going to die if the only tanks you bring are razorbacks! Once you have predators, vindicators, dreadnoughts etc. your opponent will be shooting at more "dangerous" targets than your razorbacks. Why shoot at a razorback when there's a vindicator in front of it?

It's incredibly easy to give a Razorback a cover save. It's amazing how hard AV11 is when it has a 4+ save. Rhinos and vindicators both provide the Razorback with a cover save while allowing it an unobstructed view of the battlefield. A razorback poised behind a vindicator can clearly see enemy infantry until they are a few inches away from the front of the vindicator. I have found this to be an incredibly hard combo: the razorback can pop transports, and the vindicator shoots what was inside. If you have a couple vindicators in your list (and if you don't for god's sake try some out!) it's very easy to screen quite a few razorbacks. When you need to get your infantry to objectives later on, simply spread out the vindi's to let them through, or have the razorbacks drive over the burning wrecks.

They have long range. Like, REALLY long range. They have a 48" anti-tank deathgun. Use it. I see people shooting at infantry directly ahead of the tank all the time, when they could be sending lasers across to the other side of the field and hitting vehicles. Remember, it doesn't have to shoot at the same unit as the squad it's with.

On a final note, I think that the lascannon/twin linked plasma gun version of the razorback is infinity better than the twin-linked lascannon variant. Yes, I know you can only shoot one if you move, but if you don't, that second shot is awesome, and there's plenty of things that it's better to shoot a twin linked plasma gun at than a lascannon. Monstrous creatures, skimmers, and infantry, for example. In addition, if you DON'T move (like if your waiting to counter-attack) you get to fire both. How awesome is that? Let me tell you, it doesn't seem overpriced when you're mowing down plague marines and carnifexes with ease.
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Basically, in conclusion, I love the razorback. I usually bring two to three of the tank hunting variant, to keep my vindicator's company. But it's important to realize that it's not an "all the time" unit. It's value changes dramatically depending on your army build and it's load out, and it's not something you can just throw into your list and expect great success with.

However, considering all the debates I've had about it, I am forced to conclude one thing: It may, for the first time ever, be an appropriately costed unit in 40k. :D

therealjohnny5
12-29-2009, 11:12 PM
I don't know if the techmarine is worth it to fix a weapon destroyed... However, I like the techmarine to bolster the defenses on the Dev squad... 3+ cover is nice!

Duke

absolutely, but you can take conversion beamer with the MotF, he'll lose any bonuses on the RB repair but that's what MM and HB Servitor squads can do. But then OTOH i also will simply double the Dev squad if i know i have lots of high AV\T\MC's running around. Personally since i play against Tau and Nids almost exclusively i usually prefer Las and Plasma to Melta due to range.


And Dev squads pair up well with Razorbacks

my thoughts exactly...

and on the above post i'd have to say he forgot Predators for las options...

Sir Biscuit
12-30-2009, 12:22 AM
oops, I did indeed. Wonder how I messed that one up so badly. :P

Preds are actually the cheapest mounts for lascannons in the codex... I just haven't used them much since last edition, since a quad lascannon pred is usually target #1 for the enemy, and I haven't had one last past turn one in years.

Papa Nurgle
12-30-2009, 07:48 AM
I don't know if the techmarine is worth it to fix a weapon destroyed... However, I like the techmarine to bolster the defenses on the Dev squad... 3+ cover is nice!

Duke

Bolster the Defenses works great with a Scout Squad of snipers wearing Camo Cloaks...2+ cover save.

:D

Warfare
12-30-2009, 10:09 AM
Razorbacks are good when they are not priority targets and can just pick away to get their points back. I normally run 2 razorbacks and 2 rhinos in a 1750pt list along with dreads/preds and generally they get their points back as comparatively, they are not usually seen as a big threat.

therealjohnny5
12-30-2009, 10:37 AM
oops, I did indeed. Wonder how I messed that one up so badly. :P

Preds are actually the cheapest mounts for lascannons in the codex... I just haven't used them much since last edition, since a quad lascannon pred is usually target #1 for the enemy, and I haven't had one last past turn one in years.

yeah the only reason i picked up on that is i was gifted a pred for my birthday recently, it's still sitting in a box as i have tons of work to do on this army and i'm mixing assembling and painting to keep me going, but i started looking into them and noticed the Las options...

Polonius
12-31-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm sorry if this has been pointed out before, but in my experience with razorback hordes, the problem is having to get out of a 'back to shoot. Compared to the chimera, you can't shoot out of a razorback. now, five marines are a lot more durable, but they still get locked in CC very easily.

I ran a sicarious led, tactical heavy list with razorbacks, dreads, and predator destructors. Basically the most boring and least punchy decent list available, but I still wasn't that thrilled with what the 'backs provided.

Of the higher priced options, I think las/plas is the best, simply because it helps with the things that are most dangerous.

Duke
12-31-2009, 02:38 PM
I don't know what you all area talking about. RAzorbacks are awesome! Especially the TL HVy bolter option.

I see the argument with thr TL las, but if I want that then Ill just bring a Pred with the turret.

Duke

Papa Nurgle
01-01-2010, 08:51 AM
I'm sorry if this has been pointed out before, but in my experience with razorback hordes, the problem is having to get out of a 'back to shoot. Compared to the chimera, you can't shoot out of a razorback. now, five marines are a lot more durable, but they still get locked in CC very easily.

I ran a sicarious led, tactical heavy list with razorbacks, dreads, and predator destructors. Basically the most boring and least punchy decent list available, but I still wasn't that thrilled with what the 'backs provided.

Of the higher priced options, I think las/plas is the best, simply because it helps with the things that are most dangerous.

You can just run them empty. Nothing in the codex says they HAVE to have troops in them. You allocate it to a squad and let it go.

:D

Polonius
01-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Well, that doesn't change having a squad outside of the vehicle. I run the 'backs free in KP missions, where I don't want to combat squad, but there simply isn't enough that tacticals can accomplish to really make me want to field more than two squads like that.

therealjohnny5
01-05-2010, 08:51 AM
if you play dev squads take one with them as you won't want all those heavy weapons in a transport.

Tynskel
02-05-2010, 07:10 PM
I use Assault Can Razorbacks.

Awesomeness. They work like a charm. Especially when the combat squad inside has Combi-melta, meltagun, and Calgar.

BooYah!

As for Legion of the Damned: You are using them WRONG if you give them Multi-Melta and Meltagun- ~355 point anti-tank squad that sucks at anti-tank. I could get 6 MM Land Speeders for the same price!

LotD are an anti-infantry squad. Don't give em anti-tank weapons. I like power weapon, Plasma Rifle, and Missile Launcher. Same price as the Mulit-melta and Meltagun, and now you are fully equipped to take on ANY infantry in the game. You'll tear right through them: 15 Bolter Shots, 2 Plasma, 1 Missile, 27 Attacks, and 4 Power Weapon Attacks on the charge. Does that sound like an anti-tank squad?

They'll also kill most elite squads too. Pretty much, if it walks, talks, and breathes air- Legion of the Damned should be killing it. If it hums, cranks, and puffs smoke: Legion of the Damned should avoid it.