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View Full Version : The Great GW Pricing Poll



Bigred
01-20-2014, 12:50 PM
It's time to be honest here. I want you to look at your hobby budget, price some of the things you want to buy and answer the poll.

If GW wants to get people like YOU buying much more regularly and starting new armies what should they do in the next 6 months?

Prices are good - GW is costed properly for their quality now. They should focus on even higher quality to pull ahead from any competition.
Lower Prices 10% - GW is slightly overcosted now. It's not too bad and a small reductions would increase sales substantially.
Lower Prices 20% - GW is moderatly overcosted now. It's pretty bad and it will take a notable change to turn things around.
Lower Prices 30% - GW is severely overcosted now. GW is killing itself with their prices and needs to act decisively to turn things around.

Remember to compare their costs to the competition that mosts interests you.

VOTE!

Xantio
01-20-2014, 01:10 PM
Lower prices as much as they can :) in Poland you earn 500$ a month and the prices are the same as in UK/US

Skrall
01-20-2014, 01:13 PM
I'm going to be honest here, we're about to see a large amount of winging about GW trying to make a profit and demand models be 30% cheaper. Unrealistic and unhelpful.

I'd like to see prices returned to there 2008ish price, for example skeleton 10 man sets being £12. Leman Russ' being in the region of £25-28, that kind of pricing. It doesn't need to be a major drop, just enough to make core kits affordable in quantity. I have no objection to the cost of the super-heavy/large kits (Riptide/wraighknight/ect) which strike me as being proportional to the quality and size of the miniature. The simple fact is though they have gotten greedy with the small sets.

Similarly i'd like to see heroes returned to a sane price and avaliability. Metal blisters (£6-12) used to be the core of my 40k experiance. I loved them, i could easily drop £30 a week on blisters because they were so exciting and fresh (2006-2010. Not long ago), but when GW started finecast they dropped availability to 0 (i went into GW last september, a good sized one. 15 40k finecast blisters, 4 of which where the apoc special marines).

If GW where to receive much more direct custom from me (i prefer to buy new, but GW's current policy dictates i buy second hand) all they would need to do is either fix current prices for 2-4 years and bring back metal mini's or lower the price of the existing range by 10-20% kit dependent. Some of the fine cast prices are utterly insane, as is the 'gw direct only' on standard kits.

GW direct should only apply to special models (Bare head techmarine, IG tank crews, that sort of thing) not to basic kits.... like the basilisk?

-skrall

Wolfshade
01-20-2014, 01:17 PM
Of course the trouble is that GW's profits are down, and if they don't actually sell more units, then by dropping their prices they will actually take a chunk out of the profits even further. As it is, I spend a certain budget per month with GW, by dropping their prices that will not elicit a greater spend from me. They will get the same money but I will have more stuff. Which from my point of view is a great thing.

30% from a tactical squad will drop the cost to £17.50. Which for equivalent money I could get the Cygnar Rangers (both a full RRP).
With GW working out at £1.75/model and PP at £2.99 per model, plus in my humble opinion the tacticals look far far far superior to the PPs. That is also without taking into account all the spares you get in the GW box, poseability etc.

So if GW is overcosted then so is PP. Hmm.

For the record in terms of battle field utility I have no idea if tacticals are equivalent to the rangers.

Elhi'Ahcolee
01-20-2014, 01:19 PM
I'm going to be honest here, we're about to see a large amount of winging about GW trying to make a profit and demand models be 30% cheaper. Unrealistic and unhelpful.

I'd like to see prices returned to there 2008ish price, for example skeleton 10 man sets being £12. Leman Russ' being in the region of £25-28, that kind of pricing.

Funnily enough I worked our my response to this poll by comparing the price of what i used to pay for Space Marines which was £18 to their now £25 price tag, and the increase is nearly 30%. Although I do agree that the bigger kits shouldn't be decreased by 30%, but 15-20% would be a good idea to get people to buy. I still remember the days where a Land Raider was £30.

RuggedJam
01-20-2014, 01:22 PM
i understand what your saying however finecast is a cheaper way of making models rather than metal so if anything they should be cheaper.
i belief we need to take things back to a basic level of understanding that manufacturing models only cost a penny so why are they so expensive. this is wrong in my opinion i belief that cost and selling point should have a pricing of at least 1:2

on another note they should stock all character models

confoo22
01-20-2014, 01:30 PM
Great poll, I personally voted at 20% as the average but I believe that some products only need a 10% discount, some need 30%, and some are actually just fine (though I'll admit that that last category is very small.

blueshift
01-20-2014, 01:37 PM
1. fire 75% of their marketing department, cut costs 30% on models.
2. ride massive wave of sales
3. spend 50% of profits on web-based marketing firm, rebuild website
4. divide 50% of product development to R&D of affordable 3d printers, drop hobbit and LOTR product lines completely to mitigate costs

Wolfshade
01-20-2014, 01:39 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't cost a penny to make, not by a long shot. While it may be fair to say that there is a pennies worth of material in the model the two are not the same. For each model that they make and sell, they have to cover the cost of rent for all of their shops both foreign and domestic, they also need to cover local taxes, the wage bill of the entire structure, pension contributions, from the receptionist right up to the main man. They need to cover the fuel prices, both used in the shops, at HQ and used in transporting their units around. They need to cover the cost of the maintenance of the machinery they use, including contingency to replace machines as they become uneconomic to repair, they need to cover the cost of developing a model from inception right through to production, and don't forget not every idea is made up, they take time and effort to get from drawing board to model, then sometimes once prototypes are made only then are flaws found. Then you need to consider the amount of money required to pay the staff to write the rules, play test them (I know some don't seem like they have been), but there is a huge amount of cost involved in making GW tick.
Some of these costs scale with production, so if they sell enough units they will have covered the cost of inception to market, but then there is still all the other overheads to consider.

Mr Mystery
01-20-2014, 01:42 PM
For every percentage of cost dropped, you need the same increase in sales to make the same level of profit.

10%? Possible.

20% plus? Unlikely.

Me? I'm okay for now, through favourable circumstances of wage and living on my own with no dependants.

Naturally I wouldn't say no to cheaper prices, but overall I'm not fussed.

Skrall
01-20-2014, 01:45 PM
i understand what your saying however finecast is a cheaper way of making models rather than metal so if anything they should be cheaper.
i belief we need to take things back to a basic level of understanding that manufacturing models only cost a penny so why are they so expensive. this is wrong in my opinion i belief that cost and selling point should have a pricing of at least 1:2

on another note they should stock all character models

It's not about 1:2, it's about getting a product who's quality matches it's pricetag. Finecast simply doesn't. If it was cheaper, then yes it would match (costs less, but the quality might be lower). It's been the main issue with metal vs finecast. Metal was almost always flawless, you got exactly what you paid for. Finecast is fiddly, breaks all the damned time and is often miscast. For that pleasure you also get to pay an increased price compared to it's quality metal counterpart of some two years previously.

That's a massive problem, and one they have solved by wedging their heads in the sand and letting finecast die off in the same manner as the Specialist Games.

I love 40k and it's bast*rd children, but some times the moves made by GW in there attempt to gain greater profits are staggeringly out of touch. To the outsider they appear to focus on making maximum profit for minimum imput, and aren't afraid to sacrifise it's core audience in an age where they are no longer captive. Unlike 5-10 years ago there are so many high quality miniature hobby companies on the market the only way GW can compete is to sell it's brand, not sell 3 boxes of space marines and then adopt a scorched earth policy on what has made the company successful over the past 30 years. They've completely killed off there once rock solid grip on the skirmish games market because it required effort. If you buy into the rumours, they are going to let fantasy slide off in to the same bottomless rocky abyss.

-skrall

Damian Bryson
01-20-2014, 01:49 PM
My two cents, Ive stopped buying models from GW mostly because they are so expensive and their quality is horrible compared to some other minaiture retailers so I use other models add to my armies. I never go to "GW sanctioned" tourneys or whatever, so the weird rule of "having to have so much % of GW mmaterial" means nothing to me. Ive also started playing X wing by FFG, and that game is awesome. Yeah, its more expensive per model, but I dont need several hundred models in order to have a competitive list or variety. I have almost completely stopped playing 40k to play X wing instead.

Zach Hightower
01-20-2014, 01:51 PM
While they are expensive, I would much rather see more communication and humility from them, rather than price decrease (not that I would complain!) Such as hobby related articles, willingness to quickly answer rules questions, seek feedback from their customers, and even reviewing their rules if there is a legitimate outcry.

confoo22
01-20-2014, 01:52 PM
1. fire 75% of their marketing department, cut costs 30% on models.
2. ride massive wave of sales
3. spend 50% of profits on web-based marketing firm, rebuild website
4. divide 50% of product development to R&D of affordable 3d printers, drop hobbit and LOTR product lines completely to mitigate costs

5. Go unicorn hunting.
6. Grind up horn to make immortality potion.

If you're going to be unrealistic might as well go all the way.

Bork
01-20-2014, 02:03 PM
i voted 30% because thats the kind of drop that would allow me to buy models again with my budget...maybe. GW priced me out of the hobby long ago and i only maintain my tentative hold on the hobby because i sold my previous models to buy new models which is essentially just swapping old for new miniatures.
i buy an army and stick with it, designed so it can be run in a few ways with minor unit swap outs so it doesn't stagnate but theres no way i can afford to add new units just to try out or start investing in escalation or fortification pieces. i will also admit to downloading the codex's because theres no way im being ripped off for what they cost for something i'll have memorized inside of a week.

GW are overpriced by a long way and i think they are finally approaching the wall where they cannot conceivably raise prices much higher without risking their growth as they will start to shed as many players as they rope in.

at best i think they might freeze prices for a while, i think it'll be a cold day in hell before they drop them. i don't expect it to happen and i know my days are numbered in this hobby if something doesn't give somewhere.

iv'e played for 20 years and at my peak i was buying a new army maybe every 3-4 months, maintaining several armies for 40k, fantasy, LOTR as well as bloodbowl and a few other offshoots like BFG and at least 2 or 3 other non GW games on the side. i wasn't earning any more than i am now but with the price rises and the fact every other bill in my life has gone up ridiculously in the past 5 years it boils down to a choice between heating and eating or buying a new unit.

Larabic
01-20-2014, 02:06 PM
I think the real problem with GW is that they don't give you ways to save money. It used to be that when you bought a starter or army deal it would come with a free character model, unit or army book. Now if you buy a bundle from GW it cost exactly the same as buying them individually even though it saves GW packaging. Some of the apocalypse formations make me sick because some cost even more then buying them individually. Makes us want to do business with you, it has been years since i bought anything GW due to the fact that i have dropped 40k from my games played and played Dwarves for Fantasy. It means i have been sinking all my resources into Hordes, Bolt Action, and Kickstartes, or buying Avatars of War Dwarves!

Give us a break GW, i don't want to be in an abusive relationship anymore.

mockier
01-20-2014, 02:11 PM
Some things need to drop by 30%, the recent Escalation book for example is way overpriced and over engineered. We don't need that in hardback.

The plastics GW make are excellent but they aren't the only game in town anymore. The prices on some of them are excessive, the heroes for example. Fine models, but they would be better bundled together with other characters from the same race to get the price down.

I've pretty much stopped buying due to the price, but mainly because they are gutting the player base. Dropping prices on essentials Rules, Core, HQ, Fast Attack/support, paints would help immensely to grow the player base. Returning to larger troop boxes for Guard, eldar etc would also help diversify the armies out there which imho is a bigger problem than price.

SuperDann
01-20-2014, 02:13 PM
I voted 30%
The question was about GO getting me to buy more, not about staying in business.

Realistically, I can't see a drop in prices being adequately compensated by an increase in sales. As it happens I buy or am bought something (usually a single box of something) every two months and I have a back log of models as it is. Dropping the prices would let me buy more each time, maybe a bit more frequently, but probably not over 30% more.

Larabic
01-20-2014, 02:17 PM
I think the real problem with GW is that they don't give you anyways to save money. In the old days you used to but a starter, army or bundle and get a free mini, unit or army book. Now-a-days the bundles are the same price or more expensive then buying the pieces individually! Even though it is less packing for them and saves them money. This kind of practice and the fact i gave up 40k and play Dwarves for fantasy means i haven't bought GW in years. I have sunk my money into Hordes, Bolt Action, Flames of War and Kickstarters rather then GW. I have even bought Avatars of War stuff for GW games because they give me new stuff more then once every 10 years and cost less. I was and am sick of being in a abusive relationship with GW!

Vautravers
01-20-2014, 02:20 PM
I live in Spain and the salaries here are really low: the 1000€ paid as a "low salary" between 2000 and 2008 now is a dream, the usual is finding really awful works were they pay near 400-500€. So Games Workshop miniatures feel higly overpriced, so not 30% but that prices should drop even 40/50%.

A Warhammer Fantasy goblins box is 31€ with 20 plastic minis, I can buy a Mantic's Kings of War box with 20 plastic goblins for 16.66€!

Wildeybeast
01-20-2014, 02:24 PM
I've always said they are expensive for what they actually are, but it's a luxury hobby and if you don't like the price don't play. I've always stumped up the cash for shiny stuff without complaint. Then they released Witch Elves at £35 for a box of ten. Not only was that too much for even me to stomach, but at the very same time they released the new DE warriors box at £20 for a box of ten. That is just a nerd tax, plain and simple.

Kane Leal
01-20-2014, 02:42 PM
What I would be interested in seeing is a more structured decrease than a flat percentage across the board. I think they would do well to:
1) Drop prices on a basic unit per army by a good chunk, maybe as deep as 30%
2) Drop prices on numerous boxed sets per army by a smaller percentage, in the 15-20% range.
3) Choose one vehicle per army to decrease in cost by 15-20%. Older models like the Land Raider could also see a good decrease.
4) Keep higher prices on the more detailed and expensive models.
5) Sell a "rules only" rule book at a good price.

My hope with changes like this is to encourage people to buy into the most common models at a more reasonable cost, and still make good profit on the higher end models.

Steven Palmer
01-20-2014, 02:45 PM
Hell if gw could drop the prices down even a little would be amazing.

Joey Williams
01-20-2014, 03:00 PM
im gona hafta be honest (forgive my poor grammar for those demand me be literate but were not here for proper english)

i had been a loyal vetran player (and buyer!) to GW i love there products i love there quality in there products, for the last 3 years i find myself going to online stores more often where i can pick up models £10 cheaper than GW's average price of a big model (eg the all love-able new tyranid models) when it comes to "limited Ed" items like codexs/ cases whatever, i can say fare enough to a price thats pretty high but back in the day of my young years of 40k a Land Raider was £25/£30! now it sits around £50 a GW manager once said to me "be loyal to us help save GW" (this was around 4 months ago) my reply simply was "you cant save a ship when its captain has doomed it to sink" (the manager aparently quit his job 2 weeks later)

GW you've had a great run thus far but if you wish to continue embrace Tzeencth for Change is upon you or fall and never rise again

Mr Mystery
01-20-2014, 03:02 PM
The Tyranid release features bulk deals of a sort.

The 20 Gaunt boxes offer a saving on a price per model basis.

The Swarm box offers a significant discount, and doesn't contain units you would otherwise not buy.

Toe in the water, or sign of things to come, it's encouraging.

mustardsword
01-20-2014, 03:18 PM
I'd say the prices do not need to be dropped a lot across the board. It would probably be more sensible to make the pricing more transparent and drop the prices on the most ridiculously priced items. Make it something like three tiers of characters, 5-model infantry boxes, 10-model infantry boxes, 5-man cavalry boxes, monsters each.

Stop producing heaps of stuff that no one ever has the time to collect. Go for quality instead.


For every percentage of cost dropped, you need the same increase in sales to make the same level of profit.
10%? Possible.
20% plus? Unlikely.
This is wrong. To make up for a 10% decrease in price, you need to increase sales by more than 11%, to make up for a 20% decrease you need to sell 25% more and so on. Your point is still valid, though, and I agree. Dropping prices like crazy won't benefit them much.

crandall87
01-20-2014, 03:31 PM
Of course people want lower prices. I want everything in the world to be cheaper but it's not going to happen, especially at GW

There are quite a few independent stockists of GW products. They all sell GW stuff at a discount usually at 20% off. I honestly believe that GW don't like this and set their prices higher as they know people will use these stores so GW might as well get as much as they can.

Mr Mystery
01-20-2014, 03:42 PM
Yet retailer discounts don't affect GW's take.

From what I understand, all retailers buy at the same wholesale price.

Ezaviel
01-20-2014, 03:58 PM
Similarly i'd like to see heroes returned to a sane price and avaliability. Metal blisters (£6-12) used to be the core of my 40k experiance. I loved them, i could easily drop £30 a week on blisters because they were so exciting and fresh (2006-2010. Not long ago), but when GW started finecast they dropped availability to 0 (i went into GW last september, a good sized one. 15 40k finecast blisters, 4 of which where the apoc special marines).

Geez. It's times like this when I realise just how expensive the hobby has become. When I started collecting GW, one of my first purchases was a metal blister. It cost £2.50...

As for the thread topic, well, technically they don't need to reduce their prices to make me "regularly start new armies", I kinda already do that.

But I certainly think their current prices are bound to do serious damage to their prospects going forwards. One of my mates and I were recently discussing how he does not think he could really afford to "start" the hobby right now from scratch. I mean, how much does a 1500-1750pts army cost? My recent 1750 Space Wolf army would be about AUD$900, probably slightly less if bought in battalion boxes etc. I could never have afforded that when I was at school.

Then again, I buy from a local stockist who has a flat 22.25% off GW retail.

crandall87
01-20-2014, 04:17 PM
Yet retailer discounts don't affect GW's take.

From what I understand, all retailers buy at the same wholesale price.

Well I don't know exactly how they work but I assume they get a discount % off the retail price so higher retail price means the higher price they pay for the discount so GW kinda make up the money lost to stockists this way. Of course I'm not saying this is the case at all but GW prices seemed to have increased faster since online discounted retailers became the norm.

Skrall
01-20-2014, 05:16 PM
Well I don't know exactly how they work but I assume they get a discount % off the retail price so higher retail price means the higher price they pay for the discount so GW kinda make up the money lost to stockists this way. Of course I'm not saying this is the case at all but GW prices seemed to have increased faster since online discounted retailers became the norm.

33% off standard retail price if i remember, which is why most offer it at 20% so they still get a 13% profit margin on product sales (good on 'em).

Thinking about it, i'd be happy if GW just listened to it's audience for once. I mean, it can't be that hard to listen to the people who want to give you money. The fans didn't ask for models to become magically unaviable because of finecast, and those that were turned finecast were 50% of the time still Direct Only sales. Wonderful GW. Make it so we can't actually buy from anyone else, because that's awesome...

Seriously though. GW could charge ridiculous prices on some stuff and we'd pay it;

£150 per model by finally releasing a plastic warhound? i'd have two in a heart beat.
Release boxs of 5 skitarii at £25 a piece? I'll take 10.
Release a Codex;Chaos marines instead of Codex; Spikey marines with helldrakes. Yup, take another £30 from me.
Bringing back metal HQ's i can buy from both GW and independent ? Shut up and take my money.
Offer the box set deals like during the first apoc (3 vindicators for £60)? How about you just have a pick of which organs you want to take.

The simple fact is GW's lost a grasp on 'luxury' hobby. It's a luxury, sure as sure. It is not however Whisky. I am not paying £50 for an 18 year old sculpt cast in rest. They've adopted a pricing strategy that's lowest model count for the highest price, but want everyone to have 3000pt armies. Won't happen like that, most people will be pirced out by 1000. If you want to sell people large volumes of product for maximum profit then learn to balance the product/price ratio with regard to your audience.

It's ironic, there current audiance is the same 40 year old middle class people with a good income that they've just spent the last 5 years disenfranchising. *slow clap*

-skrall

jinger
01-20-2014, 05:23 PM
4 or 5 years ago I could afford to buy something once a week, last year I could only afford to buy 1 thing every 6 month so a price drop of any kind would be the only way possible for me to continue buying any of their miniatures.

Psychosplodge
01-20-2014, 05:24 PM
5. Go unicorn hunting.
6. Grind up horn to make immortality potion.


http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120423145918/mlp/images/3/34/Twilight_scared_face_S2E26.png

How many of us are complaining about the price and still buying shinies from forgeworld?
I know I'm guilty of it...

Deadlift
01-20-2014, 05:26 PM
The prices never bothered me too much, but now my circumstances have changed. New bigger house and all the costs associated with that have made me think again about where my hobby £ goes. This has had me looking at other options and I've taken up X-Wing. I love it and not just because it's cheaper to play, but it's fast and the rules are really intuitive. If GW prices weren't as high as they are I wouldn't have looked at alternatives but they are and so I have. I'm not dropping one game for another, it's just it's easier to expand my Rebel or Imperial forces for much less. I will always play 40K but my hobby budget wil no longer be GW exclusive. I don't begrudge those that are happy with the way GW prices it's product and I do think they still have some of the best models in our hobby.
I don't think the current multiple rule sets help either. Allies were good, supplements even better. Data sheets ok, but then comes a whole host of other stuff. In theory you could spend £000 on rules alone now without owning a model. When other companies are giving their rules away for free to support their products it does make me wonder if GW are now taking the piss.

Chris*ta
01-20-2014, 08:27 PM
I voted 30%.

But I live in Australia, our prices are about 150% of the UK or US.

Frankly, I would've voted higher if I could.

Shaughnn
01-20-2014, 09:16 PM
I'd like to see pricing reflect the amount of materials in the mold and the complexity of the model. Currently, it appears to me that their pricing mirrors the desirability of the model alone. When a single HQ model costs the same or MORE than a troop unit, the bandits of Nottingham need to rethink how they're best serving King Richard. ;)
Shaughnn, in Seattle

Leon Raulstone
01-21-2014, 12:15 AM
5 Metal Knight models from PP is equal to 5 Blood Knights (yea I know the most expensive cav of GW) But Privateer Press models are better quality and yea they are Metal and not the damn failcast.

Leon Raulstone
01-21-2014, 12:18 AM
I voted 30%.

But I live in Australia, our prices are about 150% of the UK or US.

Frankly, I would've voted higher if I could.

I know how you feel mate, I am in South Africa and we are around 175% of the damn price, the game is not affordable lately, but Privateer press is 110% of the price of US/EUR :/ Nah bugger it, I got myself a Super Dungeon Explore set and all its expansions I refuse to buy Games Workshop now.

Piotr Fr
01-21-2014, 02:18 AM
As the GW people seem not to know looking at their financial report the prices should be lowered because the constant overpricing is not doing anything good.

Wolfshade
01-21-2014, 03:17 AM
Thoughout this thread is full of complaints about how much the models cost, which as a consumers is a fair enough complaint. But, I think the majority of us have a fixed budget that we can afford to spend on wargames, so if the price drops, it doesn't actually help the profits of the company, infact, it costs them more, or eats into their margins further.

For instance, lets assume that GW make 50% profit, i.e for every £1 you spend they get 50p pure profit, now if I spend each month £50 with GW they make £25 profit from me.
If they slash 25% from their prices, the fixed costs remain stationary (or on the rise owing to externalities) but now they only make 25p. So for my same £50 I spend their profit is then drops further to £12.50.

The only way by cutting prices they can get back to the pre-cut prices is for me to double my spend with them, spending £100 per month. Now, unless I am a GW employee they have no way to enact that.

The other option is to increase their customer base, so instead of one of me spending £50, there are two of me, so they would then need to double their customer base, which is really hard. PWC previously did an independent research and observed that 95p in every £1 spent in the sector was spent with GW, so they can't really expand that much, not unless they convert people from outside the traditional sector.

Now, this increasing number of gamers, must be a good thing in my opinion, but it is a very risky business model, and we all know that GW is quite quite risk adverse.

Psychosplodge
01-21-2014, 03:24 AM
I disagree to an extent because even if you have your fixed monthly hobby budget there comes a point where you feel you aren't getting value for money and take your £s elsewhere.

Wolfshade
01-21-2014, 03:34 AM
You are right and I am sorry if I didn't make it clear. That should have been included in the expanding the customer base.

If you had stopped purchasing because of the price point, then you are more likely to be picked up again than say a complete outsider. But it is still a risk.

I think GW have been walking a fine line on prices over the past couple of years and I think they are now starting to become excessive.

Cap'nSmurfs
01-21-2014, 05:18 AM
Witch Elves made me go to a 3rd party retailer for the first time. £70 for 20 is more than I'm willing to go for; £58 for 20 is still silly, but it's at least an appreciable discount.

I'm usually pretty chill about the prices of these things, but yeah, recently one or two price points I've started to balk at.

iu_maddog
01-21-2014, 07:34 AM
30%. I buy them at that rate or cheaper now, from 3rd party retailers. If GW wants a bigger chunk of that $ (Yes, I know they already get 55-65%), they need to drop rates. Even if that means they kill the 3rd parties (which they're already well in the process of), that gives them ALL of the income, from production to retail sales.

Azrell
01-21-2014, 07:38 AM
This poll is kinda misleading. The models are priced just a little to high, but the rules are about 80% overcosted.

Daveisdvd
01-21-2014, 07:46 AM
Ok so for me as an Australian it has been the case for years now that the costing for GW models is just impossible to afford for your average person. I'm a long term supporter of GW games, love 40K but aside from paints I haven't really bought any models for GW for years. Our miniatures cost double here what they do in north America and when you consider our dollars aren't that different it's a huge detriment to GW business model in my opinion to charge us so much more for the same product.

There are even facebook groups and petitions of complaints that have been organised to lobby our government's department of fair trade on the matter (if you're unaware, until about a year ago our dollar was soaring and was worth about $1.02 US for several years).

Now when I want to buy new models I go to Ebay, at least I have a shot of getting stuff for a reasonable price. I've wanted to start a 30k legion for ages and would love to expand on my eldar or space wolves army but in the end, as a working adult I can't justify the prices GW ask for.

Rosco151
01-21-2014, 07:48 AM
I used to buy something from GW every month, going back 8 or 10 years ago. Now the only time I ever get anything from them is at Christmas / Birthday if I'm lucky to get a voucher or two. I'm probably spending 20-25% of what I used to over a year, as I can't afford the odd incidental purchase of a unit here or there. I wouldn't even consider buying one the new plastic characters - there is no justification to pay £18 for a single miniature like that.

Aaron Schmidt
01-21-2014, 07:52 AM
Games workshop has been run for forth last several years by people people who do not know how to run a business. Their products are incredibly overpriced, their rules are a mess, and the company wastes more money on "protecting protecting their IP" than they actually should. The fight against charterhouse has cost GW over one million dollars. GW will never lower lower their prices, because in someone's daft little mind, pricing millions of players out of of the hobby is is fine.

Thomas Evans
01-21-2014, 07:57 AM
Here in the US, It's pretty bad. I can totally understand the cost of the super heavies, But The Independent characters(usually finecast) are so expensive. A shokk attack gun at $40, Canis at $50, and most others around $20 is just way too far already. I can build A captain from bits off of sternguard/vanguard kits instead of buying the $30 Plastic captain that looks too much like the assault on black reach captain.

Most kits aren't too bad. With the new tactical marines 10% less would be pretty fair to me. But then you've got Tankbusta's or Kommandos for $45 for 5, standard, non-customizable(within it's own kit) figs. That's nine bucks a fig(Vs Making your own out of bits).

Vehicles are another crazy mixup. I love the cost of the bomma(If gw drops it's price, I think I'd be in heaven), but the rhino chassis thing irks me. $37 for a rhino, $57 for a predator, and I really see not much worth the extra cost of the predator's weapons.

If the pricing made more sense I wouldn't be so butthurt by it.

I voted for 20%. But It's mostly aimed at older kits, as well as the kits priced badly.

Gaius Castus
01-21-2014, 07:57 AM
I am in the "lower prices 30%" bracket. GW has confounded me in the last decade, as it appears to have completely lost touch with reality, or is committing commercial suicide knowingly. It has been heartbreaking to watch something I used to feel was a great value for my dollar become something I feel bad spending money on now. 23yrs in the hobby for me, and I look at things like the Skaven Jezzail teams for $52.00, and I think to myself " How can they not see this is killing the hobby, and obviously, their business? I am a grown man who loves warhammer, and I just can't justify spending that money. Now I think of kids trying to get their parents to buy this, and as a parent, I think"Oh hell no."

Dear GW, Ever consider that this is why you can't move units anymore?

Psyfer
01-21-2014, 08:12 AM
I went for 30%, and to be honest, I think that's being generous.

I can buy an Infinity character of very close (if not equal) to GW quality sculpting for AU$12.50, where to get the analogue for 40k will set me back $20-25 if I'm lucky. The Infinity core book was roughly the same price as my Eldar Codex, full colour, equivalent quality and over double the page count.

To buy a playable force for Infinity, it cost me $50.00 (unpainted), to do the same for 40k? Easily $300.00+

GW like to use the tagline that they were the best quality miniature wargame figures in the world. That used to be true, back in the days of things like Warzone and even when War Machine first came out. However, Malifaux, Infinity and a slew of other games have proven that GW-quality figures can be made at a fraction of the GW asking price, and those games frequently have the added advantage of (in my opinion) a vastly more interesting ruleset (because let's face it, 40k hasn't changed dramatically since 3rd Ed, and could really do with a major overhaul). All 40k and fantasy have going for them at the moment is fluff, and I can get my fix of that from either computer games or the Fantasy Flight RPGs (which though expensive in their own right, are a far cheaper hobby then the mini games).

So yeah, if GW want my custom, they'd best decide to be competitive, because to be blunt they aren't anywhere near it right now. Unfortunately, I fear they'll hang themselves first. I just hope the IP goes to someone with some sense.

The Sovereign
01-21-2014, 08:15 AM
I voted 20% price drop. As others have stated, some things are ludicrously overpriced, some things are slightly overpriced, and a few things are about right, so 20% kind of evens those quibbles out.


While they are expensive, I would much rather see more communication and humility from them, rather than price decrease (not that I would complain!) Such as hobby related articles, willingness to quickly answer rules questions, seek feedback from their customers, and even reviewing their rules if there is a legitimate outcry.

Agreed. GW's service, digital products, and rules writing just don't warrant the prices they demand, period. If they would support their products better and show less contempt for their customer base, we wouldn't feel quite so disgusted in overpaying for everything.

Fenrisian1
01-21-2014, 08:18 AM
While I know a lot of work goes into the process, ideas, sculpting, mold making, then mass production, if you sell more units you'll recoup that cost much easier. Warhammer has a massive fan base, the sad part is that so many are driven away by either overcosted units or their codexes getting nerfed, or fluff getting redlined.

I think if they reduced prices between 30% and 50% they would not be able to keep up with demand. I know I personally buy a lot of stuff, but most of it has been from Ebay or bits bins at my FLGS, because I can't afford to pay full price unless absolutely necessary. And even then I try to find ways around not having to buy super expensive models and use what I have. However, lower their prices by a noticeable margin and I'd be buying the models new so I have all the options, all the bits for kit bashing and everything else.

sfshilo
01-21-2014, 08:30 AM
Honestly, they just need to have an ACTUAL sale every couple months. There is never any damn relief or deals on the dang site.

sgt_easton
01-21-2014, 08:33 AM
Where's the "I stopped playing completely. Drop the prices by 50% and support the community, and I'll consider coming back" option?

Brian Brenner
01-21-2014, 08:34 AM
I went for 30%

To buy a playable force for Infinity, it cost me $50.00 (unpainted), to do the same for 40k? Easily $300.00+


Aren't you comparing apples an oranges here? A standard game of 40K is not equal to a standard game of Infinity or Malifaux. I do play Malifaux, and Warmahordes and the later is a better comparison and price equivalent. To compare to to infinity then use Kill Team rules, 200 pts. At that level you need a single box of Marines to play.

Here is a question for the community; if you want a 20% price cut does that mean you simply buy online and things are priced correctly? Question two, would you be okay with GW shutting down their retail chain?

Ghoulio
01-21-2014, 08:40 AM
The biggest thing I can't wrap my head around is the price of the rules. I used to buy most of the codices just to check out the different armies but now I only buy the codices for the few armies I own. Here in Canada a codex is now $60, same with the supplements (which for the record should be a MAX of $20 as there is virtually no content). That boggles my MIND! My best analogy of this is like having one cell phone company that charges you the full price for your brand new cell phone (so like $500+) then charges you top dollar for your 3 year plan and THEN charges you top dollar for every little add on while all the other cell phone companies either give you the phone for free (like Privateer Press when you buy a model) or at a discounted price and have cheaper, in many cases better plans (phone isnt as pretty though). It's just a crazy business model to me.

Like others have said my biggest issue is the wildly inconsistent rules, most of which 100% feel like shallow cash grabs then attempts to make the game better (6th ed Apoc bombs? In comes Escalation). I just wish they were able to maintain a level of quality rules throughout an entire edition instead of having some Codices that are noticeably better (Eldar, Tau) and some that are noticeably mediocre to terrible (Dark Angels and Nids respecitvely...for two editions straight I might add). Like this edition has so many major facets that just feel like poorly thought out cash grabs (flyers, fortifications, allies). All of those could be great if they were implemented in an interesting way instead of "Needing a flat 6 regardless of BS to hit a flyer" or "Necrons can ally with Grey Knights...because...er..MONEY!". This, way more than any price for any of their products is what is keeping me out of playing Games Workshop games anymore. Hell, at this point I would pay $200+ for a competent Nid dex. Just saying.

nikosan
01-21-2014, 08:40 AM
So, Just to confirm, you actually want/need a 50% reduction in price?

Because currently the basic IG squad is 18GBP and you want it for 12. And Heroes are 12-15 and you want them for 6-12. That would also be a 50%-75% price drop there.

If you actually take a look at the numbers GW's price has increased by close to 50%, on average, across the board.

I have been playing since you could buy 2 heroes for around 3GBP. Now I understand that the price needs to increase with the times but in the last 5 years the price has been steadily increasing and the number of models included has been decreasing to the point where I will not buy new, period. I will instead buy models from friends and craigslist and the like.

Because whenever I buy new I am immediately disappointed because deep down I can feel that it was not worth the hard earned money I spent on it. Whatever it was. It doesn't matter anymore because all of the products coming out feel too expensive. They have lost their value to me. There are no impulse buys anymore because they all cost too much to be anything other than a deep internal debate (and sometimes not so internal if my wife has anything to say) of the worth of the item.

Thiazi
01-21-2014, 08:42 AM
Something most players are not considering is the cost of starting the game. For long time vets like most of us here a price drop wont effect our spending. But new players starting the hobby are often put off buy the cost. A price drop would help bring new players into the game.

Nothanow
01-21-2014, 08:48 AM
Voted 30%. I think the pricing of things like Centurions and Witch Elves are indicative of a need for massive change on their end.

Seriously, 60 dollars for 10 core troops that can be changed into a rare unit? That's really not that much value, particularly when a single block of 30 will set the buyer back 180 dollars. Compared to the much-maligned in their day "Goldswords" (Empire Greatswords), and you're dealing with nearly a 50% price increase over the last Fantasy unit to be ridiculously overpriced.

I understand that the Sternguard have a ton of flexibility and customizability. Truthfully, the Sternguard set and Tactical squad sets would need to be merged to even justify the cost, and even then they'd need to provide 10.

Don't even get me started on the Belial who has been going through nearly a week of time in glasses of hot water and the freezer to straighten out his sword a bit.

Truth be told, I've bought more recently than I have in years (an increase from 0 to Deathwing Army). I honestly went Deathwing because rebuilding my Dire Avenger-based Biel Tan army became wtfexpensive.

Psyfer
01-21-2014, 08:51 AM
Aren't you comparing apples an oranges here? A standard game of 40K is not equal to a standard game of Infinity or Malifaux. I do play Malifaux, and Warmahordes and the later is a better comparison and price equivalent. To compare to to infinity then use Kill Team rules, 200 pts. At that level you need a single box of Marines to play.

The point was not so much equivalency (as you're right, 40k vanilla is company based, Infinity is squad based) but the raw start-up cost. A game that you can get into for $50.00 (which as you can get the Infinity or Malifaux rules for free online) it much easier to get into then one that will cost you $200.00 to $300.00 (Core rules + Starter + Codex) to get into. Regardless of the style of game, the above factor doesn't change. Cheaper games are more accessible.



Question two, would you be okay with GW shutting down their retail chain?.

Wouldn't bother me at all as long as the postage was reasonable and the service up to scratch.

Manyac
01-21-2014, 08:51 AM
vote: Lower Prices 30% - GW is severely overcosted now. GW is killing itself with their prices and needs to act decisively to turn things around. (30% in some cases isn't enought"

the prices are really overcosted, I`ve been playing for 20? years (more or less) but this isnt a "When I was young a box of goblin was 3€ rant".

Every one knows the "Warriors of Chaos Nurgle Chaos Lord" great plastic mini, No multipart, Static, plastic, simple sprue, great modelling, and in a lot of "golden demon prices" -> 12,00 €

compare now with the "Space Marine Captain" not so great plastic mini, No multipart, Static, plastic, simple sprue, not so great modelling -> 25,00 €

The price increase is more than 100% in 3 years?

In fantasy the prices are overcosted but in 40k are simply abusive. but the prices aren´t the only problem, nowadays we are paying the same for printed codex than for digital ones. Please if you are going to charge me the cost of choping a tree for my codex and please do it.

The ruleset is another problem, as is unbalanced (as ever) but no balancing FAQs, there is no tournament support (some years ago there was some support not great but support)

Wilfen82
01-21-2014, 08:58 AM
I'd go with a 15-20% reduction for most things.

Something I also feel could help is we now have many 2 in 1 kits where you can build 5 troops, 3 MC etc and yet have a surplus or waste of plastic on that sprue in the form of spare heads, torsos, appendages (I'm not talking bout alt weapon options that the unit can pick from). So if they were removed then maybe that £20 box is now £15 and as Ive got spare change in my twenty note budget, so I'll pick up a blister at the same time as it'll only put me over budget by a couple of quid. Go out with £30 thinking maybe a box and blister for bout £27, but now I can get two boxes which will give me more stuff so I do. Coz were not just thinking of selling to the adult gamers but the kids and teens with limited fiances. I used to do these kinda things with related products in the toy shop I ran with a better than 50% success rate and that's before "add on sales" or as we call them "ow go on then" sales like batteries, glue etc.

The next thing I'd suggest, drop the hardback army books. Return to softback and a reasonable price for them. My first 40K codex was 2nd Ed Chaos with 144 pages for £10, now its 96-100 pages for £30 of which 20% is photos aka advertising, I think not. I used to collect all the army books in fantasy and 40K (with a few exceptions) because I loved the fluff and knowing my opponents, but I am not prepared to spend £30. Would I spend £20, at a push. Would I get back into buying them at £15, yes I would. I once had a member of GW staff justify it to me because he had "got through" 8 copies SM codex flicking through for reference, I suggested a reference sheet and taking better care of his things

Just my tuppence worth

Bitz Box Rob
01-21-2014, 08:59 AM
Not every thing needs a 30% cut, 20% would get me buying somethings again direct from GW again.

Seriously I had HAD to click 30% cause i will still not pay $82.50 ( U.S. dollars) for a storm raven. Only a price around the $58.00 is gonna make it happen, and be honest i'll still shrug at it and plan for next month, but this plan keeps getting derailed as other games make it attractive to "buy now" and go home with a shinny new toy.

Now that's not all models need a huge drop to be attractive to me. If a furioso dread went down 20% id go for a $37 one.

Bitz Box Rob
01-21-2014, 09:11 AM
So forgot to mention the other thing slowing me down in the hobby.

CODEX ARE HORRIBLE!!
Hardcover no i don't even want rules in Hardcover if given the choice.
All Color no thanks that's just for your showcase publicity photos ( or call them adds ).

I am constantly browsing other players codex cause i cant afford to buy all of them anymore

you say you are a miniatures company who also puts out rules so we can play with them and want to buy more minis.
than do it

Wolfshade
01-21-2014, 09:14 AM
Here is a question for the community; if you want a 20% price cut does that mean you simply buy online and things are priced correctly? Question two, would you be okay with GW shutting down their retail chain?

To address this.

Q1. If I want a 20% discount do I buy online? Yes. Though I do impulse shop at GW.

Q2. No. Certainly it is my experiance, I understand in America the experaince is very different, but in here GW stores do a lot to attract new customers. Certainly player retention is a hard thing, lots of hobbies have issues with retention even those without an on-going cost associated with them. If GW is to increase sales, then removing its chief mechanism for increasing the customer base is not the way forwards.

Vaktathi
01-21-2014, 09:20 AM
It's insane how much GW prices have increased. While some kits have remained largely the same price (stuff like SM tac squads and Terminators) many others have increased at triple the rate of inflation in less than a decade. Even before Codex books went hardback they'd almost doubled in price in 5 years (from $20 to $38). It's gotten to the point where a lot of GW kits are on par with FW pricing.

Nothanow
01-21-2014, 09:21 AM
Yeah. I used to buy nearly every codex because I enjoyed reading them. Now I get the chills even thinking about buying codecies or army books for the armies I already have models for.

I can get a digital copy of Honour the Chapter from Fantasy Flight Games for 20 dollars. That gives me unique rules and background for a huge number of Space Marine chapters, detailed wargear, and plenty of other stuff to play with my RPG friends. I can also buy a Space Marine Digital Codex for 60 dollars, giving me half the background fluff, fewer rules, and fewer pieces of colored artwork.

To be honest, I'm getting to the point where Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch are my entry and exit points for the hobby.

Cactus
01-21-2014, 09:36 AM
Right now, a typical heavy vehicle costs almost as much as a new video game release - or 50 games or songs for your cell phone. Multiply that times the cost of an entire army and you find that you can get a lot more for your entertainment dollar elsewhere.

It's had to convince someone to part with their money, spend hours assembling/painting to prepare to play (work), learn a textbook full of rules (more work), find an opponent, and find time to play, when you can just press a button for instant gratification. Lowering the cost of the game would give a quantifiable justification to play a table top game over a video game or other entertainment media.

nedius
01-21-2014, 09:36 AM
I would argue it very much depends on the product.

The cities of death terrain is a steal at it's price. Comparable historic buildings are usually lower quality and more expensive.

However, some things, like th Hive Guard and (worst offender) the Hobbit Trolls are significantly over priced for plastic miniatures.

The cost for a hive guard was justified in metal, a bit much in resin and ridiculous in plastic. They are not worth £40+. £30 max. And even then...

silashand
01-21-2014, 09:39 AM
I stopped buying GW products at their prices about 4 years ago (when 8th edition WFB came out). I simply refuse to pay $10 or more for one plastic 28mm figure (terminators, centurions, etc.). $35 for that kit is appropriate and I am likely to buy two or more. For vehicles/large kits if they are over $50 then the odds of me getting one approach zero depending on how large (obviously the Baneblade is worth more than that due to size, but a Land Raider? A Predator? Hardly). Whatever that works out to in percentages I am too lazy to calculate, but frankly if getting a reasonable 2K army in 40K costs more than $500-600 then it's too expensive regardless the justifications otherwise. JMO of course.

mortal888
01-21-2014, 09:47 AM
I'd like to throw in that part of the price of the game is "whoever has the newest army wins". That was a big part of the ridiculousness that made me quit.

Lord-Boofhead
01-21-2014, 09:50 AM
2. ride massive wave of sales

No this does more harm than good. Why? GW stuff is non essential. If they have sales folks will just wait for the sales to buy stuff and then never buy stuff at full price.


4. divide 50% of product development to R&D of affordable 3d printers,

Yes lowering the quality of their premium product is totally the answer.

Lord-Boofhead
01-21-2014, 09:56 AM
SI am constantly browsing other players codex cause i cant afford to buy all of them anymore

Who the hell buys Codexes for armies they don't play?

Dale Dreessen
01-21-2014, 09:58 AM
Right now it would be easier for me to buy more kits from the online companies offering a 20-25% discount or maybe eBay if I get lucky. I could buy a little more at 20% but much more at 30%. Things are tight around here and if I buy too much I have to face my wife. She is not amused.

Wolfshade
01-21-2014, 09:58 AM
I'd like to throw in that part of the price of the game is "whoever has the newest army wins". That was a big part of the ridiculousness that made me quit.

Have you not heard the bemoaning of how underpowered the new Tyranid Codex is?!

Wolfshade
01-21-2014, 09:59 AM
Who the hell buys Codexes for armies they don't play?

There are some of us, the more "collector" types. Who love the fluff, then there are those who like to absorb all the codecii so that they know all the tricks and threats for any and all opposition that they meet.

Mr Mystery
01-21-2014, 10:00 AM
Who the hell buys Codexes for armies they don't play?

Hi.

My name is Mr Mystery. And I own every codex and expansion. And indeed army book. And LotR faction book.

oni
01-21-2014, 10:01 AM
For the longest time I thought that I didn't have a break point, but I do and I know it now because GW reached it finally with the Tyranid release.

I was super excited about Tyranids. I used to have a small army of them (sold it) and wanted to start anew, but after seeing the pricing of the new kits my desire was crushed.

I will continue to play 40K, but my purchasing has come to an almost complete and total stop.

GW needs to make a 20% price cut across the board and a 25% cut for most newer kits.

Arthfael
01-21-2014, 10:02 AM
I voted 10% to be conservative. As an example of the damaging effect this has on customers, I have a friend who just started playing and nearly never did because of prices. The only reason he did is because I told him I'd model some orks from scratch for him and because he's a first class geek ^^

Lord-Boofhead
01-21-2014, 10:07 AM
A Warhammer Fantasy goblins box is 31€ with 20 plastic minis, I can buy a Mantic's Kings of War box with 20 plastic goblins for 16.66€!

You pay for quality. Mantics stuff is awful garbage that I wouldn't want my worst enemy to have to paint...

Mantic's stuff is over priced for the horrid garbage it is...

BrotherAlpharius
01-21-2014, 10:12 AM
I voted for 30%. I realise it's drastic and probably not viable for GW but that's what it would take for them to lure me back. Spartan Games is the current recipient of my money. For £28 I can get a fleet box that enables me to play a whole faction. For £50 I can get that core force plus a bunch of interesting extras. For GW I'm going to have to blow through a couple of hundred quid to get anything like a decent army. It's not just about model for model price comparisons, it's about what size games you have. GW wants to push stuff like Apocalypse to drive up the size of games and that means that I've just walked away.

Horncastle
01-21-2014, 10:15 AM
There are some of us, the more "collector" types. Who love the fluff

That's me; I've bought every codex for every edition since I started playing with 3rd edition.

Wolfshade
01-21-2014, 10:15 AM
You don't have to play big games! Certainly the game works better at 1,500 - 3,000pt, but yay Kill Team!

Grumzimus
01-21-2014, 10:18 AM
Yeah luxury hobby and all that, but still... for what you get the stuff is really, really expensive!!

I think we all agree the new customers, the kids are going to be priced right out of the market. Leaving them with just us, the aging gamers left to pick up the slack.

I like their products and for the most part they're good quality. But they've still got a lot of flaws in them. But the stuff is just way too expensive right now.

Don't get me started on how overpriced Forgeworld stuff is.

evanger
01-21-2014, 10:19 AM
Personally I find something like the Dwarf Warriors box (a Core unit, with 16 models, that costs $35) is about where things should be. Multi-part plastic for ~$2 a model. It is still WAY too much to spend, if you think about it rationally, but it's where I can feel comfortable, I guess.

I can understand this Per Model Price going up a bit for rarer models like characters and whatnot (rarer as in not purchased as much and therefore more expensive, per piece, to make).

I don't like a regular sized metal character miniature to be priced much higher than $15 or so. I cannot stand the new plastic clampack characters for $20 minimum. Plastic should only be used (over metal) to make the sale price cheaper, in my (admittedly old fashioned) opinion.

I really can't stand something like the Dark Elves Sisters of Slaughter. $60 for 10 models is a rip off.

Eldar_Atog
01-21-2014, 10:28 AM
I voted 20%.

Until about 2 years ago, I used to impulse buy whenever I stopped by a GW store. Maybe a new model, a codex to read, or some paint. Now, I don't go unless I need something specific or need to research for some conversion idea. I have to wait 2 weeks before I buy anything and I always hit the popular sites to see if I can find something a little cheaper.

To me, going to a GW store is like going to the car dealership. I know I am going to be pressured to make a huge purchase and will pay through the nose for everything. It saddens me that it has come to this. I used to love the hobby but I doubt I will ever pick up another army.

silashand
01-21-2014, 10:39 AM
I used to love the hobby but I doubt I will ever pick up another army.

This. Also, I doubt I will purchase much of anything from GW again except the odd rare item no one carries. For everything else I will just buy second hand or from alternate sources/manufacturers.

gideon_lorr
01-21-2014, 10:39 AM
With GW working out at £1.75/model and PP at £2.99 per model, plus in my humble opinion the tacticals look far far far superior to the PPs. That is also without taking into account all the spares you get in the GW box, poseability etc.

^ this ^

comparison shop and then come back to me. GW prices generally seem to be in line with the "competition" when taking into consideration quality and options.

Vickiand Bob Doran
01-21-2014, 10:58 AM
How much is a model worth?? That depends on what it looks like when you get it on the table. When I buy a model (tac squad for example) I will make a very good job of it. From cleaning off mould lines to basing properly. Will the 14 year old kid do as good a job?? I doubt it. In that respect, I think your minis are worth it if you take the time to do with them what you are supposed to.

What I can't stand is overpriced books that are poorly put together. The page references are all wrong again, how the hell are these things not being filtered out? Not to mention the most boring book of all, the Tyranid codex. NEVER have I got my hands on a new codex for an army I already own, and then not want to play them...

Eldar_Atog
01-21-2014, 11:03 AM
I've noticed several people talking about their "Wargaming budget". Is that the norm for most people around here?

I budget myself but it is just a hobby budget. Wargaming competes with board games, books, movies, music, games. I would figure most people don't budget for just wargaming. That's what I think is starting to really hurt GW. A customer looks at the price of a land raider or wraithknight and does a comparison in their head. "I could buy this box... or I could buy myself a couple of books, a new CD, an old copy of Persona 4, and an inexpensive board game."

silashand
01-21-2014, 11:05 AM
I've noticed several people talking about their "Wargaming budget". Is that the norm for most people around here?

I budget myself but it is just a hobby budget. Wargaming competes with board games, books, movies, music, games. I would figure most people don't budget for just wargaming. That's what I think is starting to really hurt GW. A customer looks at the price of a land raider or wraithknight and does a comparison in their head. "I could buy this box... or I could buy myself a couple of books, a new CD, an old copy of Persona 4, and an inexpensive board game."

My budget is for my overall hobby purchases so includes all of the above and more (the most expensive of which being shooting and my motorcycle :) )...

William Bellamy
01-21-2014, 11:09 AM
Games workshop not pricing the model based on it's usefulness and changing the rules so the usefulness waxes and wanes with the codexes.

Stop making kits that don't have all the necessary parts. "So to make three dakkafexes I need to buy six?"

I believe they are overpriced across the board but an across the board price decrease based on percentage is not necessarily the best solution as some are more overpriced than others. I am thinking specifically of the time when they rolled out their first price increase and the Space Marine Chaplain on Bike jumped from $15 to $25. I know they have to make a profit but this is getting ridiculous.

When comparing prices with other game companies it's a bit difficult. Games Workshop already has their factories set up and molds already made and have been using said molds for a while. Does anyone remember that the Land Raider has been out for 10+ years and has gone from $45 to $75? I can get a warjack for $35 with everything I need to make 3 different variations or I can get a dreadnaught for $46 that does not have all the bits to actually make the variations of just that one model ("There's gotta be a multi melta on one of these sprues, somewhere"). On the other hand a 10 man box of Space Marines is only $40 while a 10 man box of winter guard is $50. Wait, that would be a 13 man box as it has rocketeers so that makes it pretty close as at $4 a space marine 13 of them would cost $52. There's also the problem that most other wargames on the 28mm scale are skirmish affairs with a few dozen troops on each side whereas Warhammer can have hundreds of models on the table giving a more grand scale to the game.

One of the many problems that has probably been done to death is the entry cost. The battle boxes have gotten more expensive with fewer contents and don't really have enough for a starter force. Perhaps they should consider starter army boxes. 1 HQ, 2 basic Troop (minimum number of each), 1 Elite, 1 Fast attack, and 1 Heavy, perhaps setting it up like the basic box with minimum piece models. That would probably be deemed too expensive.

In any case I have slowed my purchase of GW product and will not add to my current armies. Eventually I will pick up the tyranid codex and see if that is as bad as I've heard. When the last codex came out I had two carnifexes to build. When I read their rules I shelved them and waited for the next codex (not exactly a huge sacrifice as I had gotten back into the game recently and had purchased a Space Wolf army that I am still trying to assemble and paint.)

In any case I'm going to try to work on what I have and actually play a few games before looking at buying new Games Workshop models. If they continue their current course and a 15 year old land raider is $125 then I'm probably going to just stop entirely.

In the meanwhile this last weekend I went to a convention and learned how to play x-wing. 4 decent looking models make a tournament ready force. Hmmmm.

Just_Me
01-21-2014, 11:10 AM
Generally speaking I think their model prices are only slightly high considering the quality. Would I like it if they were a LOT cheaper? Sure. But at a 10-15% reduction I would buy 2 where I now buy 1 (or buy 1 were I don't buy any). Their Codexes (and more specifically electronic versions and supplements) could benefit from a 20% drop.

They have always asserted that they are a model company first and their rules are intended to be casual so I feel that should be reflected in their rules pricing. And speaking as someone who has to have ALL of the new Codexes and supplement (for the fluff more than anything else) I have found more than once that after getting my hands on a Codex I ended up collecting an army for it even though I initially had no intention of doing so. Making the army rules and background more accessible would promote that pattern and move more models.

Mr Mystery
01-21-2014, 11:10 AM
I have specific budgets set aside, but then I do have in the region of £850 a month disposable income :p

Brother Smoke
01-21-2014, 11:25 AM
I know someone is bound to jump at me for this, but some of GW's kits should be cut by 50% or more!

Now I'm not saying all prices should be slashed, many kits are actually priced appropriately, like wraithknights and riptides, which due to the sheer scale of their design warrant their price tags, but other kits are clearly priced absurdly. Take dire avengers for instance, the come out at $7 per miniature This is a troop choice. It's also a pretty old kit with extremely limited options. I'd pay $15 or maybe even $20 for them, but no more.

Terminators are another prime example, they are a whooping $10 per miniature. I would at most pay $5 per.

When I first started the hobby (around 09) I thought the prices were high, but with a little budgeting I could get by, now with 3 armies under my belt I've had to resort to recasting, proxying and 3d printing bits. The only units in any of my armies that aren't heavily converted for bit efficiency are my tacticals (AOBR and DV mostly, and still some have weapon swaps) and my boyz. I was even considering starting vampire counts, made a shopping list, and not a single miniature would have been bought from GW.

It makes me sad that I have to resort to this but prices are ridiculously high right now, and it makes me wish GW goes under so maybe someone with more sense will pick up the IP.

If prices were to return to like when I first started, when battleforces were $80 and I could pick up a land raider from a legit source without having to live on ramen for a month I would probably start shopping GW again

MajorMcNicol
01-21-2014, 11:29 AM
Man, if GW was 30% cheaper, I would buy wayyy more than I could paint!

Wilfen82
01-21-2014, 11:40 AM
I have specific budgets set aside, but then I do have in the region of £850 a month disposable income :p

I weep with jealousy and, just wondering, are you of a generous giving nature? :)

SON OF ROMULOUS
01-21-2014, 11:40 AM
30% easily sorry but they have been over costed for years. i know the last new army anyone actually started was dark eldar in my gaming group all we have done is add a unit here or there to an existing army i know for me i no longer look at GW period if you want an arm and a leg i will buy from forgeworld where atleast i am paying for good mini's as opposed to the crap gw puts out and then charges just as much. other then that i've gone over to buying from 2nd and 3rd party gaming companies ie dream forge and other's like it. sorry but when i can get 20 of their storm troopers for less then i can get 10 regular grunts from GW you know someone is out of touch here oh and the mini's are just as good as Gw's and the boxes come with just as many options if not more... so screw the GW crap about them giving you tons of options as well as extra mini's because they don't

Brent
01-21-2014, 11:41 AM
I voted for 30% reduction, and would've voted for more had the option been available. I look at their prices in a couple of different ways.

1. Relative to GW itself. Compared to five years ago, GW has doubled the price on most items. And this is on items that are exactly the same as they were--for example, a Space Marines Land Raider--so research, development, tooling, and other up-front costs don't apply. New items have come in at even more ridiculous prices...to cite just one example, the new Tyranid Haruspex/Exocrine isn't even the size of a Carnifex, and has fewer pieces, yet it's more expensive.

2. Relative to the rest of the hobby world. Compared to other, similar products in the hobby world, GW products are extremely expensive. Buy a Tamiya tank kit that costs the same as the GW Land Raider, and look at what you get...hundreds more parts, detail that's at least an order of magnitude better, and it's the latest vehicle that one of the world's armies has rolled out (so it's certainly not a decade-old mold like the LR).

3. Relative to what I need. Compared to what I happily used just a couple of years ago, GW has inflated the content of many of its products in a way that doesn't meet my needs but gives them justification for absurdly higher prices. As an example, take a codex...the older, smaller, soft-bound codex had everything I needed to play the game, and it was convenient to take to the FLGS for a game. Now, the typical codex is twice the size and hard-cover (and twice the price)...but none of that is what I need as a gamer. The added content isn't new units or rules, it's all fluff and color pictures...in fact, some of these changes actually decrease the codex's value to me as a gaming aid (for example, the hard cover is a positive detriment to portability and ease of use since it's bigger, heavier, and won't lie flat). I don't want a coffee table book as a gaming aid--it's so expensive, I worry about damaging it (unlike the old codex). And all this is in regard to a codex--it's even worse with the BRB.

As prices have gone up, I've bought less and less from GW, and have turned my attention (at least partially) to other games.

Worse than that is the outlook for the future...GW's high prices mean fewer and fewer new gamers choose 40K....

pseudodelic
01-21-2014, 11:43 AM
I would say that I am happy with the 12% plus discounts I get with independents. I buy nothing direct from GW. However if the prices were reduced by 20% or their packaging policy or designs altered slightly to make them more competitive that would suit too. I have to say that you used to get 2 Rhinos in a box for £10.00 (about $17 at the time) then you only got one and now you pay just over double that... Has it kept pace with inflation? Well when a Rhino was £5 a Mars was about 20P and Mars are now 70p so a Rhino should cost £17.50... that is approx... That is 20% cheaper than it actually is now hence I think 20% is achievable based on their previous pricing policies and the fact that their products are probably cheaper to make today anyway...

simonbeard
01-21-2014, 11:48 AM
I, too, understand that 30% probably sounds drastic to many, and is perhaps unrealistic for GW to achieve and still make a humongous profit (or at least enough to continue to make 80-page hardbound books...), but the question is "If GW wants you to buy more and start new armies regularly what should they do?", and quite frankly, I've been priced out for a while.

Heck, I barely even buy GW stuff anymore (many other companies make appropriate minis that cost less than GW — so I can't use them at a GW tournament, no big deal. I haven't met a player yet who can't tell what unit they represent just by looking at them, and doesn't think they look as good as or better than GW minis). I now only buy rules supplements I need. I don't buy any miniatures boxes or clam packs from GW, my FLGS, or even discounted online retailers (I haven't for years now, it's just not something I can afford). I accumulate my armies as unpainted bits on ebay or at flea markets at my FLGS. I just can't afford to build an army at $60 for 10 core troops. That's $200 for one unit. I should have a small- to mid-sized starting army for $200 (not a single unit).

Saying that "you get what you pay for" is not an appropriate response to this poll. The prospect that Mantic miniatures are trash and GW miniatures are far superior is just a big ol' load of generalizing. Granted, a good chunk (the majority) of the Mantic minis do look really cartoony with weird stances and proportions (but I'd say that a good 20-30% of GW minis do too). However, some of Mantic's minis look fine (even better than GW minis in the case of the zombies), and have a reasonable or even attractive price point for the customer.

The point there is that it's obvious that because plastic minis are so cheap to fabricate (just look at Mantic's prices), it should be really fast to get a return on your up-front investment (concept art, sculpting labor, etc.), and after you've made that back, you're basically printing money. Now, I realize that because GW makes full-color hardback books with a good paper stock and high quality printing, those costs have to come from somewhere too (but, as someone who works in book production, I know for a fact that those are also priced to make an unbelievably fast return on investment).

Now, I'm pretty sure they could drop their prices. Would they have to scale back their operation to a size that is more manageable? Maybe. Probably, even. It was a mistake for them to go public in the first place, where they were going to be in a position of needing to be constantly increasing their profit margin (as a private business owner, this is another opinion I feel confident stating). That's just not a sustainable business model for a company that creates product for such a pricey hobby that is supposed to bring in children and adolescents as new players.

I've played GW games as an enthusiast for 20 years now. I stopped playing 40K in 3rd edition, because I didn't care for the rules changes, but I kept buying minis, and kept playing 2nd edition rules as well as continuing to follow Warhammer Fantasy. I also picked up their smaller/skirmish games (Space Hulk, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, GorkaMorka, Mordheim) in an effort to continue to support the company AND fuel my own hobby projects for 40K and Fantasy. I continued to buy GW minis up until pricing went prohibitively high (for me) around 2007-2009. It's not for lack of wanting them (that's certainly not the case, I think many of them are incredible sculpts, and I would love to have them in my armies). Whether I like the games or whether I'm good at the games or whether I think GW is a good company or a bad one just isn't the point.

The point is, I can't afford their miniatures, and haven't been able to for a while. And that's what this poll is about. If I ever have kids, I'd LOVE to get them into the hobby with me. But I can say for a certainty, they'll either be using my miniatures, or we'll be finding bits for them to make their armies through auctions on ebay or from flea markets that our local game stores host.

If GW drops their pricing (I can't see this happen unless they slowly reduce the prices as they release armies — the same way they've been raising them over the past few years), I'll most definitely jump right back in (I still play their games), and start buying their minis again. Until then, it's accurate proxies/conversions with minis from other companies (and GW bits), and used GW minis for me.

Wilfen82
01-21-2014, 11:58 AM
I've noticed several people talking about their "Wargaming budget". Is that the norm for most people around here?"

I have a luxury budget each month, which covers days out, dvds, games etc. Last week my fiancee and I went and did a morning of falconry which cost £46 for both of us. I'd dearly like a Harpy but, to be honest, I enjoyed the falconry more than I would the plastic kit. An that's what GW also has to compete with.

sgtpjbarker
01-21-2014, 12:03 PM
I have been buying plastic models since 1965, the quality is better than tamiya stuff that is roughly the same size is running about $75-$100 a kit and that is on sale thru the internet.

Beardicus
01-21-2014, 12:18 PM
It would be nice for GW to drop prices by 20-25%. My local retailer in ATL sells boxes at cash price for 30-35% off but does not have room for play. I talked to the owner about it and he basically makes around $10 off of most purchases because he marks down so low from distributor costs. It's sad to say that my favorite place to play is far beyond too expensive to primarily buy from when I have this alternative so close to the LGS. Most of the time I just buy hobby supplies from Gigabites rather than models (though the owner is made of pure win)

Psychosplodge
01-21-2014, 12:34 PM
I have a luxury budget each month, which covers days out, dvds, games etc. Last week my fiancee and I went and did a morning of falconry which cost £46 for both of us. I'd dearly like a Harpy but, to be honest, I enjoyed the falconry more than I would the plastic kit. An that's what GW also has to compete with.

For £46? that's not bad at all.

HockeyDad16K
01-21-2014, 12:43 PM
I quit buying GW models when they forced the UK shop I was dealing with to stop selling to Canada. At the time I was getting about 30% off the local retail prices. So I voted for 30%. I also don't buy codexs anymore either as both the Hardback and digital copies are way too expensive. The digital should be equal or less than the old soft cover versions (imo).

Today I spend my money on X-Wing. It's way cheaper to build a force that you can play with at a FLGS.

Eldar_Atog
01-21-2014, 12:44 PM
I have specific budgets set aside, but then I do have in the region of £850 a month disposable income :p

Heh, I don't quite have that much disposable income but I do pretty well. My temperment is more like a squirrel though. Pay the bills, food, gas... All my hobbies have to fight it out in "ThunderDome" :)

Asymmetrical Xeno
01-21-2014, 12:45 PM
most stuff is 30-40% too expensive for me, I havent bought anything since abour mid-2012 personally. My "entertainment" budget per month is about £40 in general, so I'd rather spend it on cheaper things that I will get more out of such as books ect. Also, I'm not rich but I'm not going to make any judgements or complaints (especially at those whom can afford it) - It's a simple choice for me, if I can afford it ill pay, if not - well no worries it's not like I'm entitled or anything. Choice is a great thing :)

Eldar_Atog
01-21-2014, 12:48 PM
I have a luxury budget each month, which covers days out, dvds, games etc. Last week my fiancee and I went and did a morning of falconry which cost £46 for both of us. I'd dearly like a Harpy but, to be honest, I enjoyed the falconry more than I would the plastic kit. An that's what GW also has to compete with.

That sounds very cool! It also put the mental image of a bunch of falcons attacking the GW execs and authors :)

Konrad0349
01-21-2014, 01:19 PM
I've been playing 40k for years and love it, but the only thing I've bought over the last year or so has been the latest rules, Tau Codex, a few (maybe 4) White Dwarfs, and 2 models (Stealth Team box and SM Drop Pod). I used to purchase almost a model a month and buy virtually all the codexs as well as my White Dwarf subscription.

I'll be sad to see them go, but if something doesn't change, I don't see them being in business much longer.

Foxhound2delta
01-21-2014, 01:22 PM
The thing is GW prices are so high that in some cases they even exceed FWs models or are no on par. Its no wonder that more people play 30K. As for myself I have pretty much stop buying as much as I have and instead concentrated on painting my models of different armies. I buy the newest books for my armies and the paint and brushes I need and that's it. Trust me I use to spend a lot. I nearly have a complete space marine chapter and I have two complete first companies of terminators. Sure the argument is that I don't need this stuff but the counter argument is that GW does on the other hand must sell their product in order to make a profit. I'm no business major nor am I one of the super know it all's on this site. I am however a consumer and when something gets too expensive, like other consumer, I either stop buying or I find another game that both is fun and doesn't take all my money.

Frankie DiSalvo
01-21-2014, 01:26 PM
Lower by 20%. I've started buying from independent retailers that give a 15-20% discount on GW products, and even then, I'm leery about spending.

ted1138
01-21-2014, 01:35 PM
The trouble is their prices vary wildly, from a little overpriced to severely overpriced(Centurions spring to mind). Even comparable products they make can vary hugely in price(Wraithfighter/Razorwing). But it's stuff like the Witch Elves at £35 for ten small plastic figures that truly makes their prices seem ridiculous...

Carey Mahoney
01-21-2014, 01:49 PM
I just accidently voted for "drop prices 30%". Actually, I thought 20% should do it, to be fair.

It would be some cool move if GW dropped all of their prices by 30% just for one month or two (with appropriately huge publicity in the run-up of it) and see what they get out of that. Maybe some more hobby beginners.

Wolf
01-21-2014, 02:49 PM
I am however a consumer and when something gets too expensive, like other consumer, I either stop buying or I find another game that both is fun and doesn't take all my money.

Which is precisely what has happened in my case. Too expensive, too many new rules to confuse issues even more, revamping Codexes just to fit into 6th edition (soon be time to look for 7th Ed!), etc etc. I just cannot be bothered any longer to try to keep up with all the new releases of books, expansions, and so on. I have sunk a considerable amount of money into this hobby over the last 20 years, but the decision has been made to cease and desist spending any more, and instead look around for another game that as per the quote above "is both fun and doesn't take all my money."

Malifaux and Bolt Action for me now.

W.

Kibbles Lil-Bit
01-21-2014, 03:18 PM
Also, with these crazy prices, and starting new armies every few months, we have to think on which armies are a better deal.
Time to start a new 1500 point army. Let's choose Grey Knights. This could cost around £150
Now lets start another army, Goblins this time. Now we are looking at around double what we could have spent on Grey Knights.
They should consider how much units cost per army compared to other armies. Dropping the prices on these "horde" armies for instance would go a long way to letting players start the armies they want to.

Wilfen82
01-21-2014, 03:34 PM
That sounds very cool! It also put the mental image of a bunch of falcons attacking the GW execs and authors :)

That made me laugh, though as I learnt a hawk would be better as falcons are more about speed. After typing that I did day dream bout training a Harris Hawk to act as a Harpy/Crone, then seeing how much it would mess my with my opponent when releasing it over the gaming table!


For £46? that's not bad at all.

We were lucky as we were down in the West Country, where I live they only do full days for like £120+

jonas the jedi
01-21-2014, 03:41 PM
I agree on that point. But for the most part think the prices are all right though a little schizophrenic. Give fine cast flesh hounds fifty bucks. You'll get twenty chaos hounds for the same price. The flesh hounds are the same old sculpt while I believe the dogs are a new one... guess which one is going to be my twenty strong unit for my daemons. And the old battalion boxes while smaller where better for getting players into the game. I have two friend that love to play... with my armies because the cost is to high to get into the hobby.

John McLeish
01-21-2014, 04:29 PM
I voted 30% because that is just the pricing difference due to my global location. Factored against Malifaux I can get 6 highly detailed models from Wyrd for $60 ($10 each) or 10 space marines for $75 ($7.5 each) but I can actually play a game with the malifaux box. For a comparison to a non-skirmish game it would cost me $410 for the vanilla marine strike force (36 dudes and 3 vehicles) or I could buy a Mantic Forge father Army box for $96 (30 dudes and 2 vehicles) now I am assuming the strike force is playable but I would have to at least buy a codex. The Mantic box comes with the game rules so is more than playable out of the box.

There just isn't any incentive to buy from GW. I can get nicer figures for skirmish games at the same price as one elite infantry box but actually play or I can get bulk figures at a similar quality level to the GW starter box for 1/4 the price and it comes with the rulebook. That isn't even going in to how badly perceived the GW rule sets are compared to other games on the market! Even a 30% decrease in prices probably wouldn't bring me back, they need to overhaul the rules and their attitude at the same time.

DarkLink
01-21-2014, 05:01 PM
Dropping the prices on these "horde" armies for instance would go a long way to letting players start the armies they want to.

So... GW should just start giving away minis for free? You do understand that it physically costs roughly the same to produce a single plastic mini of a given size regardless of how many points it costs in-game, right?

dorstein
01-21-2014, 05:27 PM
Speaking only for myself of course:

I have a reasonable amount of disposable income. Take home of about 3k per month and don't spend money on much else besides food and rent. (Live in Canada)

For troop boxes: I'm okay with their prices for the 10 troops per box type. ($35ish dollars)
For vehicles/special heavy infantry, such as the leman russ and terminators as an example at $60, I'd be okay with $50, preferably $45
For the bigger models in the $80 to $100 (Landraider, Valkyrie, etc) I need a LAAARGE price cut, at least 25%. The price increases have actively thwarted my impulse to buy from the store and instead opt for only discounters.
For something like, say the Centurion Squad priced at $94: 35-50% price cut. I mean really, come on. I could afford to go skydiving for one box with three iddy bitty minis.

So many nifty things that I, as a casual gamer, would have liked to have gotten (Forgefiend, wing-o-valkyries, etc) that I'd like to get but are just, way too damned expensive.

clively
01-21-2014, 05:30 PM
The poll is a bit difficult. I don't think an across the board price cut is what's needed. Instead I think it needs to be more targeted. For example a standard 10 man troop squad should be about $29, a 5 man elite about the same. A vehicle around $35 and a flyer about $50. I think $60 should be the absolute top end for even a baneblade.

clively
01-21-2014, 05:32 PM
So... GW should just start giving away minis for free? You do understand that it physically costs roughly the same to produce a single plastic mini of a given size regardless of how many points it costs in-game, right?

You do understand that production costs have almost nothing to do with the price they charge, right?

psychoweenie
01-21-2014, 05:36 PM
I'd like a Tyranid army which in Australia would set me back about $1500 at the least. For me to actually consider starting the new Army I'd like prices to drop by 30% here in OZ (At the very least).

The otehr game that interests me is warmahordes, Legion specifically and to get teh army I want it would set me back $200 or so maybe 250 if I went with the Archangel.

DarkLink
01-21-2014, 05:56 PM
You do understand that production costs have almost nothing to do with the price they charge, right?

Yes. That's frankly irrelevant. GW's not going to produce one army with a profit margin that gives them, say, a return of $1 for every dollar they spend, then produce another army that only give them a return of ten cents.

Space Wolf Paco
01-21-2014, 06:21 PM
I just had this conversation with my War gaming buddies and one of my local stores. General belief, if the cost were more in line with what their true production cost were, we would all definitely invest more money. As it is in our present economy, the amount of additional income anyone has for gaming is severely limited. So we are reduced to bidding on eBay or working out trade deals to try and get what we are looking for. Some are even looking into Gray market items to support their GW addition. LOL! easy way to think about it, you want to pay $25+ for a single model or $33+ for a box set. I love the fact that GW has gone to providing many variations in a single box set, keeps me coming back.

Rift Knight
01-21-2014, 07:35 PM
I haven't bought a 40k model in over 2 years. When 5 Termies went over $50 USD, Land Raiders were almost $70 USD, and Leman Russ's were also almost $70 USD I just cound not justify buying anything else new. It's one thing to spend $25 USD on a new codex you hope you will get at least 4-5 years use out of, but $75 USD just because it's hard bound. I don't think so. I just can't do it. I have so much stuff to paint anyway and as an adult I don't get to play like I used to. And these days kids are used to spending more time with electronic items. If GW wants to entice teenagers away from that stuff they need to make it cheaper than buying a new computer, X-Box, IPhone, ect. Cost of entry is ridiculous. Just went on GW website a very basic about 1500-2000pt Space Marine force (don't have current codex so gestimation on points): 40k Rulebook,
Codex: Space Marine
SM Strike Force
Raven Guard Paint set (cheapest under army essentionals)
Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer
Aslt Termie Sqd
Reg Termie Sqd

$639.50 USD Before TAX!

Just too expensive for entry. Should be $150-$200 To get started with a 1500pt force. Heck the SM Strike Force is $225 before tax. With the current economy here in the US most people just don't have as much disposible income as they did 5-6 years ago. For almost $700 USD (about what it would be where I live in US with tax) I should be able to field almost 3000pt force with lots of tactical options. One of my old bosses in food service magt use to say when we would put out best burger on sale "More nickles, less quarters" i.e. we would make more overall profit by selling with lower unit prices through much larger sales volume. I know I won't be buying any 40k stuff at retail. If I do it will probly be off Ebay for from discount stores online. And that is still a big if. I really think a price reduction of about 35% would be what it would take to get me buying again. That would put the Land Raider back to about $50 USD. Yes it's a nice toy model, but it's not "that" nice and it is still really a toy. My feelings for what it's worth.

Kaptain Badrukk
01-21-2014, 08:17 PM
OK here's my take, for what it's worth.
GW need to restructure prices, these % figures don't really cover it, but they do.
They had issues a few years ago where certain moderately popular releases still weren't actually making any money (I'm looking at you Chaos Knights) because they simply priced them (drum-roll please) TOO LOW. I know this because I was working there at the time, and it came up in a big way at the staff AGM following their release. They went £12, £15, £18 pretty damn fast. And the objective was for them to reach £20 where they'd start paying for themselves. Now the Baneblade came out at £60, and was EXTREMELY popular, so much so that it had paid for itself in very short order.
SO we know (due to my entirely unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence, it's not like they gave us handouts) that cheaper prices for GW CAN work to their advantage but DON'T always. It it deeply circumstantial and if they release too low it gets them no-where. This is where the flawed logic has crept in I think, the logic that goes like this "If we price too low bad things happen, nothing bad has ever evidently happened due to high pricing, so let's release the product at a higher price.
I know, I know, customer loyalty and blah blah blah but look at their numbers and you can see why they wouldn't see that price increases would hurt them, because for over a decade they DIDN'T.
Then finecast, oh finecast, yes they COULD produce amazing models in finecast (I even own some) but it had flaws and the initial release had the quality control issues and the list goes on. And they looked at the release and said "we should avoid another chaos knights fiasco." Whoops.
Then plastic single-pose characters, which are lovely models btw, and again they said "Better make sure they pay for themselves."
Well I think we can see how it goes.
There needs to be serious thought along 4 lines, addressed as a statement to GW;
1. It now costs £107.80 to get into the hobby. Still 1/4 the price of a new games console, but no longer less than a tablet computer or a kindle or a serious bundle of lego or a dozen other things that a parent would buy their kid. That needs fixing.
2. Books cost too much. Period. Look at the other games companies, look at RPG companies, look at everyone else. You are charging TOO MUCH. Yes we understand that you have made wonderful books. You know who else makes wonderful books (based on your IP, using your artwork, full of rules, your fluff and in hardback) Fantasy Flight. They know where the sweet spot is on book pricing (still expensive i'll grant you, but you feel like you get what you paid for), learn from them.
3. You are right, you are not a gaming company, you make models. Fine, no issues there. Let the community help. Release free playtest rules (it never hurt forgeworld), don't charge silly money for dataslates and digital codecies(this would of course be fine in parity if you LOWERED BOOK PRICES), bring back forums where YOU moderate and allow frank discussion. The internet is NOT your enemy. Talk openly about your motivations and decisions and watch people AGREE WITH YOU. The only thing that's gained from radio silence and seemingly random C&Ds is that you look like jerks and detractors get to label you the badguy.
4. ADMIT YOU MAKE MISTAKES. Zaphod (a fellow business brain) talks about this a lot in his frankly very sensible blog analysis of the last few years, it's the business term "Black Snow". You are doing, and have done, things wrong. But you refuse to acknowledge when you do. And then you KEEP ON DOING THEM. I've been to staff AGMs where a member of staff (not me, I drank the kool-aid[or whatever we drank in england]) would stand up and say "We can see this is obviously going to fail, our customers would never put up with this" and the response would always be "get 'better' customers" (not in those exact words, but you understand). When customers stop being customers there is only ever one group of people to blame, the people up the top.
That's me.
Badrukk rolls a natural 1 to avoid ranty wall of text.

Baoh
01-21-2014, 08:42 PM
I've long considered GW prices to be out of whack.

I can get a Master Grade Gundam model kit that is molded in various colors, posable down to the fingers, and has swappable weaponsfor $35 - $50. Why then does a static plastic model like the Tau Riptide cost $85 then?
Check out the price for a Tamiya tank model kit. I can get a 1/35 Panzer IV from Tamiya for $25-$30. That kit will include rolling wheels, rubber tracks, and rotating turret. Why is a box of a tank (The Land Raider) going for $74.25? They really need to check and see how the Japanese companies can make these kits that are more detailed and contain way more parts for half of what they cost. I have not even begun to discuss the quality difference between what GW offers versus Bandai and Tamiya.

gijoe1313
01-21-2014, 09:37 PM
I voted 30%.

But I live in Australia, our prices are about 150% of the UK or US.

Frankly, I would've voted higher if I could.
You think that's bad! I live further out across the ditch in ol'kiwiland (New Zealand), when I had a holiday in Melbourne last year and went to the games shops - I went crazy, cheaper plus I got back the GST on it! That would have easily been a years gaming budget for me in one go! We had two GWs in Auckland, one of them got closed up since the FLGS (Vagabonds) was offering 20% discount and only 5 minutes away!

It seems like a lot of the 40+ age group gamers (I'm one of them) we've seen how the big GeeDub has shot themselves in the foot so many times (and we line up to give our hard earned coin anyway!) - I've been introducing some new prospective players to the hobby, but the look on their face when they see the entry price ... no wonder they love to just play with my armies!

I live in hope that something positive will change for the future ... I still have 80 Skullz on my collectors card!

Master Avoghai
01-22-2014, 03:01 AM
To me the problem doesn't strictly rely on the price of the models. Models are nice, GW invested a lot in plastic casting technics and I'm fine with that mostly. The only reproach we can make concerning the price is fine cast as
1/ most of the range has used already existing models hence using the metal mold to cast them.
2/ resin is mostly used in hobby because of its low production price when comparing to metal and plastic.


Now I think the main problem is not the price. It's what we get beside.

Which company will sell you a 200€ boxset and tell you that you have to pay 3 more euros for a dataslate allowing you to play those 3 models in another way?
Is it a good solution to invest in one man stores so small that you can't have any table bigger than 4'x4', preventing you to play?
I'm ok to pay 35€ for those nice hardback codex but c'mon! You've started updating FAQ and all... And now you've stopped, leaving lots of unanswered questions. FAQ are not fixed things that are done 3months after he release : the new codex imply more questions, we discover new combo that raise questions too.

So to me, GW shouldn't lower their price of plastic figures... They simply have to have the behavior that fits with this price.

You are the number one? Act like the number one!

ACE01
01-22-2014, 03:21 AM
Moderately overcosted.

Like some posters earlier, the price for quality is not something I dispute or mind paying for. Large kits don't seem excessively expensive to me related to the current cost of unit box sets, however the switch to half size boxes and near double the price per mini was crushing, and probably has a lot to do with the decline of WFB. £1-£1.25 per model for core, basic infantry in WFB I don't think is unreasonable, £1.55-£2 I think is pushing it. I was really interested in getting Dark Elf army however when the cost to buy a single core unit of 30 (not an unreasonable size) was revealed to be £60, I couldn't do it, and instead my hobby budget was spent either on ebay, or not at all. Although that change to core pricing weighs in at a massive ~35%, I voted 20% given the changes are a bit less evident in 40k (with exceptions, ie. Dire avengers), and particularly for large kits. A dragon at £35-40 I don't mind at all, the last £1.50 increase makes little difference to my hobby spend.

TL;DR version:

Where you need a larger number of models (troops/core) GW is too expensive. This actively prevents me spending more cash with GW.
Where you'll only make a single maybe two purchases of a box (monsters/big kits) the pricing is relatively ok and wont change my purchase habits.

mockier
01-22-2014, 04:26 AM
They need to drop the pricing on the rules, codexs and suppliments. If they want to do hardback they should make them limited only.

I was all set to pick up Escalation till I saw it costs AUS$83 (Same price as a new released console or PC game). For a 96 page book with contents that are mainly duplicated from earlier Apocalypse books.
It wasn't that long ago when the full size Core rules cost around AU$60, these days AU$124.00.

Some kits are priced ok (super heavies), while others are too expensive like characters, specialist units (storm vermin vs clan rats).

I think they need to bring back the games company they used to be, re invest in their entry point and spin off games, because right now they are giving away that market for free. They produced a poplar version of Space Hulk a few years ago but only did a limited run. In the past they would have supported the product with at least another few runs, and maybe an expansion or two.

mockier
01-22-2014, 05:17 AM
They need to drop the pricing on the rules, codexs and suppliments. If they want to do hardback they should make them limited only.

I was all set to pick up Escalation till I saw it costs AUS$83 (Same price as a new released console or PC game). For a 96 page book with contents that are mainly duplicated from earlier Apocalypse books.
It wasn't that long ago when the full size Core rules cost around AU$60, these days AU$124.00.

Some kits are priced ok (super heavies), while others are too expensive like characters, specialist units (storm vermin vs clan rats).

I think they need to bring back the games company they used to be, re invest in their entry point and spin off games, because right now they are giving away that market for free. They produced a poplar version of Space Hulk a few years ago but only did a limited run. In the past they would have supported the product with at least another few runs, and maybe an expansion or two.

cpt_safety2
01-22-2014, 07:22 AM
Hi. I voted for 20% - rather than do the math. I'd actually like to buy from GW, but now I always look for the lowest price from ebay or get a price sheet from an online retailer - usually works out to at least 20% savings. In the past, I liked buying direct. I felt like my "local" GW store (3 1/2 hours away in Cambridge, MA) was supportive and helpful. My visits there and to GW HQ in the Baltimore area - really any GW store I've been to - solidified my love of gaming. Painting tutorials, helping my kids and I with assembling, painting and game demos was great! No longer are these services available at GW and I rely on Internet forums and a local independent store for support. The indy store, though will also help with board games, card games and Flames of War or Warmachine - which is great. I just miss the support and focus on my favorite game worlds 40k, the Old World and Middle Earth. The stockholders obviously see support staff and hobby gaming as an unprofitable distraction from profit margins. My consistent buying practices, however, were based on that support. My hobby dollars are spread out in other directions now. Obviously, I'm not alone. -Bill

Master Avoghai
01-22-2014, 07:27 AM
Typically, the 3 dataslates supplements for tyranids is what GW should stop doing.

1 - one week after the release of a 35€ codex, you wonder WHY they didn't include it inside.
2 - GW don't stop to say they are creators of MODELS. We all know that those dataslates are absolutely not playtested. Half (if not the entire) fluff content is copy/paste of already existing fluff.
It's just something done on the corner of a table during lunch break if the conception team.

Would it be that hard to GIVE those dataslate that costs you nothing and make people WANT to BUY models to play them?

Morquentas
01-22-2014, 08:48 AM
£150 per model by finally releasing a plastic warhound? i'd have two in a heart beat....
...most people will be pirced out by 1000. If you want to sell people large volumes of product for maximum profit then learn to balance the product/price ratio with regard to your audience.-skrall

So you'll buy two chaos warhounds but you want GW to reset optimum army sizes to 1k?

Chris*ta
01-22-2014, 10:17 AM
You think that's bad! I live further out across the ditch in ol'kiwiland (New Zealand), when I had a holiday in Melbourne last year and went to the games shops - I went crazy, cheaper plus I got back the GST on it! That would have easily been a years gaming budget for me in one go! We had two GWs in Auckland, one of them got closed up since the FLGS (Vagabonds) was offering 20% discount and only 5 minutes away!

It seems like a lot of the 40+ age group gamers (I'm one of them) we've seen how the big GeeDub has shot themselves in the foot so many times (and we line up to give our hard earned coin anyway!) - I've been introducing some new prospective players to the hobby, but the look on their face when they see the entry price ... no wonder they love to just play with my armies!

I live in hope that something positive will change for the future ... I still have 80 Skullz on my collectors card!

Yeah. NZ must be one of the few places where prices are worse than Oz.

I have been tempted to acquire an address in the UK and then ship the stuff myself from there to me. I think it'd still be significantly cheaper than retail.

And the best discount I know of in Sydney is 10% :(

Mr Mystery
01-22-2014, 11:05 AM
All you need to do with that is obtain a trustworthy 3rd party in the UK, and make sure the cost of shipping is also paid.

I would volunteer, but sadly I'm pretty much the least reliable person when it comes to shipping stuff in time. The curse of a 3 hour a day commute, and the parcels office being shipped to the next town over!

miteyheroes
01-22-2014, 11:12 AM
I don't mind the fliers, Riptides, Warhammer Monsters etc being in the £40-£50 range.

But basic infantry shouldn't be so pricey. I can get 40 Gripping Beast Vikings or 40 Warlord Games Celts or 40 Perry Minitatures War of the Roses for £20; that's a brilliant price. 20 Empire Freecompany for £20 is a good price - it's more than the historicals, but I like GW and they do come with lots of options. 10 Dark Elves for £20 is not a good price. 10 Witch Elves for £35 is just madness.

So yeah. They need to cut prices for infantry by around 50%.

(And stop the hardback codices - they're too pricey, they stopped me buying despite the fact that I have every codex since halfway through 2nd ed.)

The_Gonk
01-22-2014, 01:53 PM
The bizarre thing, I think, is the massive variance in price. As has been touched on: Why is there such a price disparity in some items which, from a humble punters view, you would think would be the same.

I voted 10% too high. Some of the stuff appears massively over priced and some feels like good value - the Freecompany box is awesome and so are some of the battalion boxes.

I really am torn on the hardback books - I like the fluff and the quality in my experience has been very good. I do think it'd be nice if they sold a cheapy version with just the rules though as I don't like transporting hardback books around.

rickyard
01-22-2014, 07:16 PM
Thoughout this thread is full of complaints about how much the models cost, which as a consumers is a fair enough complaint. But, I think the majority of us have a fixed budget that we can afford to spend on wargames, so if the price drops, it doesn't actually help the profits of the company, infact, it costs them more, or eats into their margins further.

For instance, lets assume that GW make 50% profit, i.e for every £1 you spend they get 50p pure profit, now if I spend each month £50 with GW they make £25 profit from me.
If they slash 25% from their prices, the fixed costs remain stationary (or on the rise owing to externalities) but now they only make 25p. So for my same £50 I spend their profit is then drops further to £12.50.

The only way by cutting prices they can get back to the pre-cut prices is for me to double my spend with them, spending £100 per month. Now, unless I am a GW employee they have no way to enact that.

The other option is to increase their customer base, so instead of one of me spending £50, there are two of me, so they would then need to double their customer base, which is really hard. PWC previously did an independent research and observed that 95p in every £1 spent in the sector was spent with GW, so they can't really expand that much, not unless they convert people from outside the traditional sector.

Now, this increasing number of gamers, must be a good thing in my opinion, but it is a very risky business model, and we all know that GW is quite quite risk adverse.

This doesn't work this way: I may not but one mini for 20$ but perhaps I may buy three of them if it costed 15$... that would be 30$ more, so better tan NOTHING.

It is not only a matter of "I got my fixed Budget", it is also the "how much do I OBTAIN for this Budget??" If my Budget allows me to have ONLY one mini every two months... I quit.

AND consider that the budget for the hobby in a lot of cases really means "a budget for games and entertainment products" So if my budget allows me to have a new tabletop game or a New X-wing core game, I'm not buying a single Land Raider.

rickyard
01-22-2014, 07:20 PM
So... GW should just start giving away minis for free? You do understand that it physically costs roughly the same to produce a single plastic mini of a given size regardless of how many points it costs in-game, right?

Exactly, that's why nobody understands that a hero costs 30$ and a trooper cost 30$ ten of them.

DarkLink
01-22-2014, 08:38 PM
You mean $20 for a finecast low-volume single model vs. $35-45 for 5-10 plastic high volume kits?

Porty1119
01-22-2014, 09:04 PM
That sounds very cool! It also put the mental image of a bunch of falcons attacking the GW execs and authors :)

Matt Ward v. Red-Tailed Hawk... :cool:

I've been priced out for quite a while. GW, for me, cannot compete with 1/72 plastics, my own sculpts, and cheap metal models. I can literally assemble a complete combined-arms platoon, a lance or two of Battlemechs, or quite literally three pounds of polymer clay (If I sculpted 28mm, I could probably achieve <$1/figure). I simply cannot justify the expense, not with other options.

Chris*ta
01-23-2014, 02:49 AM
So... GW should just start giving away minis for free? You do understand that it physically costs roughly the same to produce a single plastic mini of a given size regardless of how many points it costs in-game, right?


You do understand that production costs have almost nothing to do with the price they charge, right?


Yes. That's frankly irrelevant. GW's not going to produce one army with a profit margin that gives them, say, a return of $1 for every dollar they spend, then produce another army that only give them a return of ten cents.

A disturbing amount of each box is profit. The cost of production for miniatures is really low. They don't want to have radically different costs between similar boxes (although they do) because it would make people less likely to buy the more expensive boxes.

And GW has plenty of armies that have lesser returns than others. Far more of a Space Marine box is profit because of the volume of those they sell means that they have already made back the sculpting and mould-making costs on them many times over.

Frankly, what GW needs to do is minimise their retailing costs. These really are loss-making (or would be if they charged sensible prices for their models. They consider the retail arm to be a form of advertising really.

Darren Richardson
01-23-2014, 09:41 AM
I voted 20%, mainly because for the big tank kits etc, though they are expensive, they are standout items that showcase an army, now infantry prices are one of the big problems, when it costs more for the witch elves then it does a tactical squad, the latter using much more plastic, then you know something is seriously wrong.

Part of that I blame on the board and shareholders, who get greedy in the quest for profits, many will become so obsessed in the quest for higher profits they will unwittingly drive companies into the ground, because by the time anyone realises what dire straits the company is in, it is usually far too late to do anything about it....

The second part is the lack of online community support and open playtesting.

Lets take a look at a rival in this hobby business Wizards of the Coast (I know they make RPG's but bear with me on this).

Wizards of the Coast have a strong online community, they have now for over a decade, their staff use the boards and they have independent volunteers who throught the day montior and edit rule breaking posts.

They have sections devoted to FAQ and they respond to posters in a timely manner.

Lastly they value the players feedback, last year they implemented possibly one of the biggest playtests of any game in the world, players could register and download the rules that were being proposed for the 5th ed of Dungeons and Dragons, they listened to players feedback and ammended the rules and then allowed players to download the rules with the changes implemented, this continued throught the whole year, now when 5th come out it will be one of the most stable and rigirously playtested RPG anywhere on the market.

Games Workshop needs to take this approach with the gaming community if they want to see the company survive the next few years, along with restructuring their pricing for their plastic kits, all kits should be priced according to the amount of plastic used in the kits, and then inflated for sustainable profit accordingly.

Edit:

On a side note Paizo publishing also did this for their RPG Pathfinder, which also has become a sucess as well, so this method of playtesting DOES work!

The_Real_Chris
01-25-2014, 07:20 PM
Cost is only part of the issue. The player base has shrank too much and the rules are increasingly poor.

To get back in I would want - total army cost of £200 (rules, models to a commonly agreed points value for tournament and pick up games), just better rules - listhammer is fine but some on table choices like Epic A are needed, a stable long term contract for independant shops to get player numbers up. Really for £200 I got a fantastic amount of stuff in thedeadzone kickstater so will be happy for the rest of the year, how can GW currently compete with that? They had a chance with Epic as I loved the ruleset, but 40k just has so many negatives.