Daemonhunters and Witch hunters codex

[Readon]

I haven't seen it mentioned here so I thought i'd let people know that after querying an order with GW I was informed that the Codex Daemon hunters and Codex Witch Hunters have both been discontinued with no due date for a reprint. Neither are available of the UK GW site now.

[sebi81]

hm... they are out of stock and aren´t reprinted. does this mean, an new codex ist on the way (even if its a long way) or does this mean, the inquisition is dropped?

[Cryl]

I'm going to be all "glass is half full" on this one and take it to mean the arrival of new a codex or multiple books for some combination of Sororitas, Grey Knights and / or Inquisition is sooner rather than later.

Chances are the glass is actually half empty though...

[rbryce]

as much as id like to see a new dex for my sisters soon, i doubt this a precursor for it happening though. all other rumours suggest 2011 earliest, and likely later. when i started 40k 5 years ago, they told me they were workin on a new witch hunters dex then, and ive been waiting since, and ill prolly be waiting when i die. its no prob though, as fortunately i love the models, and i just ignore inq. units in the current dex.

[twistinthunder]

im going to put my *** on the line and call it:

codex: inquisition july 2010 (nt official /estimate)

[andrewm9]

I haven't seen it mentioned here so I thought i'd let people know that after querying an order with GW I was informed that the Codex Daemon hunters and Codex Witch Hunters have both been discontinued with no due date for a reprint. Neither are available of the UK GW site now.

I know on the US site they removed the Battle Sisters Squad box from the troop section. I don't think itmeans much, but in the past GW has removed codices and battleboxes a few months before the new release. I don't think that is happening here, but it's certainly odd. They are probably just moving a few things around on thier webservers and there were a few mistakes as its probably way to early to expect a new codex and plastic sisters.

[twistinthunder]

the sites aren't different btw except for the language.

[andrewm9]

the sites aren't different btw except for the language.

Normally I'd say thats true, but the US site is still showing the WH codex whereas the UK has both gone. I wonder what that means in the real scheme of things. I'm not getting my hopes up though

[Melissia]

You mean just like other old codices are discontinued when a new version is going to be released?

I look forward to the Sisters of Battle / Ecclesiarchy codex.

[DarkLink]

hm... they are out of stock and aren´t reprinted. does this mean, an new codex ist on the way (even if its a long way) or does this mean, the inquisition is dropped?

Current rumors indicate that a new codex/codices are most definitely on the way.


I'm going to be all "glass is half full" on this one and take it to mean the arrival of new a codex or multiple books for some combination of Sororitas, Grey Knights and / or Inquisition is sooner rather than later.

Chances are the glass is actually half empty though...

Half full. All current indication is that there will be a new codex in a year or two, and as Melissia pointed out, removing old stuff early is standard GW procedure.

In all probability, the DH and WH codices are fairly poor sellers, so GW probably currently has enough backstock to last the year or so until the new codices come out, so they can stop printing earlier than they would with another army.

[andrewm9]

Current rumors indicate that a new codex/codices are most definitely on the way.



Half full. All current indication is that there will be a new codex in a year or two, and as Melissia pointed out, removing old stuff early is standard GW procedure.

In all probability, the DH and WH codices are fairly poor sellers, so GW probably currently has enough backstock to last the year or so until the new codices come out, so they can stop printing earlier than they would with another army.

Thats all true, but we usually see a removal maybe 3 or 4 months out from such an event. I think I can reasonably certain that GW is not putting out any type of Inquisition/WH/DH ciodex in that time frame.

I'd be pleased if they did however. If they still had a decent stock however, why remove it from being ordered at all? That makes no sense to me. That and it hasn't been removed from the US site, just the troops box and that hasn't been removed fully yet since it pops up in the also featured products.

[HsojVvad]

Who knows, maybe we will be getting WH and DW in a few months. I was just checking out some posts on Warseer and a few people, Harry and Starlight, I believe, were saying ( I can't remember who said what, so I am saying these words are either Harry or Starlight, but not shure who said what) " that nobody has really gotten the correct release sceduele yet" and "we will be surprised, happy and excited to what will actually be released in 2010.

So who knows what wil be really released. I don't think they will be released in a few months, and would be shocked if it is, but nothing will really surprise me anymore. I just can't figure out GW anymore and I give up trying to give them out now :p

[BDub]

im going to put my *** on the line and call it:

codex: inquisition july 2010 (nt official /estimate)

Seconded!

[Artein]

I look forward to the Sisters of Battle / Ecclesiarchy codex.

I'd love to share your optimism.

[DarkLink]

Thats all true, but we usually see a removal maybe 3 or 4 months out from such an event. I think I can reasonably certain that GW is not putting out any type of Inquisition/WH/DH ciodex in that time frame.

I'd be pleased if they did however. If they still had a decent stock however, why remove it from being ordered at all? That makes no sense to me. That and it hasn't been removed from the US site, just the troops box and that hasn't been removed fully yet since it pops up in the also featured products.

That's why I mentioned DH/WH codices being poor sellers. GW probably has a sufficient backstock of them to last them for a lot longer than 3-4 months, simply because they don't sell that many codices. I could be wrong, and maybe they're farther along than we know or something, but I certainly don't take anything here as bad news.

And if Grey Knights did somehow turn out to be the "other half of the story" or something, that'd be amazing:D!

[Aegis]

Could also be a double bluff on GW's part. Take them down to make us think they are dropping them/revamping them, then BAM! They do the opposite...

Either way, it would be nice to just get some official word on them. With almost every other codex, an update is more or less expected without it being said (DE excluded, obviously).

[HsojVvad]

Could also be a double bluff on GW's part. Take them down to make us think they are dropping them/revamping them, then BAM! They do the opposite...

Either way, it would be nice to just get some official word on them. With almost every other codex, an update is more or less expected without it being said (DE excluded, obviously).

What is the point of doing a double bluff? Too me that is like, "Ha Ha, you sucker got it wrong!" Well you just don't do that to your customer base. If you to make me look foolish that way, why should I bother buying things from GW then? Maybe I just take things to personally sometimes.

[Aegis]

What is the point of doing a double bluff? Too me that is like, "Ha Ha, you sucker got it wrong!" Well you just don't do that to your customer base. If you to make me look foolish that way, why should I bother buying things from GW then? Maybe I just take things to personally sometimes.
In a sense, though, that is what they have been doing for some time, beginning with the idea of doing a Codex for each Ordo of the Inquisition. They followed it up by canceling Xenos, then started a rumour about an Inquisition book, then recanted, and now hinting at a revamped model range, and potentially new books, while discontinuing certain aspects of the product range.

Let us face it, GW has two hands, and both are making different gestures without coordinating with the other. It seems the only consistent information we can get out them is regarding their glory boys...

[Melissia]

I'd love to share your optimism.

I base my optimism off of the models planned for release, which suggested a preacher, a priest, a confessor, and varied Sororitas models.

Such variety wouldn't be in an Inquisition codex, but it WOULD be in a Sisters codex.

[DarkLink]

Either way, it would be nice to just get some official word on them. With almost every other codex, an update is more or less expected without it being said (DE excluded, obviously).

Some of the recent rumors are about as good as official as we'll get until the codices are only a couple months out. It was an actual GW employee, who had been authorized to release certain things (but forbidden from talking about others).

[Melissia]

I trust the model release rumors more than the other ones though. The model release rumors make more sense and are supported by what we already know they're going to release for other armies anyway. And they indicate a Sisters + Ecclesiarchy codex, rather than an Inquisition codex. And yes, I do believe GW is incapable of doing both at the same time. Just look at how much the Ecclesiarchy was removed from C:WH when they combined just ONE aspect of the inquisition with the Sisters-- how much more do you think we have to lose if they combine MORE bull****?

[Aegis]

Some of the recent rumors are about as good as official as we'll get until the codices are only a couple months out. It was an actual GW employee, who had been authorized to release certain things (but forbidden from talking about others).
It may just be my cynical nature, but I have long since taken GW's impression of 'official' with a generous dose of salt. They flip flop all the time, and spread so much misdirection, I sometimes wonder if they even know what is going on. Of course, having said that, I would love to eat my words and see these wonderful new models/books come to bear, especially if plastic sisters end up being amongst them.

[DarkLink]

It may just be my cynical nature, but I have long since taken GW's impression of 'official' with a generous dose of salt. They flip flop all the time, and spread so much misdirection, I sometimes wonder if they even know what is going on. Of course, having said that, I would love to eat my words and see these wonderful new models/books come to bear, especially if plastic sisters end up being amongst them.

My point was we're not going to get anything better than this, so we might as well live with it.

[Aegis]

My point was we're not going to get anything better than this, so we might as well live with it.

Upon second reading, I can see that. An unfortunate truth, which we seem to be forced to make due with. I guess we all cannot be traditional Space Marines...

[DarkLink]

Upon second reading, I can see that. An unfortunate truth, which we seem to be forced to make due with. I guess we all cannot be traditional Space Marines...

I wish Grey Knights got treated like traditional Space Marines. We'd at least be middle of the road competitively, if not better.

In fact, I wish Grey Knights got treated like Space Wolves. Ignored for a while, then an awesome new codex.

[Faultie]

You mean just like other old codices are discontinued when a new version is going to be released?

I look forward to the Sisters of Battle / Ecclesiarchy codex.

Faultie and Melissia completely agree on an issue! Full story tonight at 11.

[rbryce]

all sisters players agree on this issue

[The.Justinian]

So I know this won't be a popular one but with just about anyone. Yet what if the rumors meshed up correctly that Sisters might show up in some kind of Templars/Ecclesiarchy codex?

This would suck for both armies, but aesthetically and to a certain extent in-world, they mesh. And given the overall hostile feelings toward a WH/DH mashup, this might be a least worst option if the SoBs don't get a Codex of their own.

So, I'm sure this has been thought before, and my feeling towards the theory isn't entirely negative (about 95% negative). Everyone else feel revolted by the idea?

On a side note, It recently occurred to me as I typed this that a new SoB army could/would/should have the texture point of accessing the SM vehicle STCs but at lower cost from BS3. Just imagine a 65 point base predator...and that's not even to start on the discounts that a BS3 LRC might accrue (while having Twinlink make up for most of it).

[Dark_Templar]

We Templars are pricks. We won't work with anybody who isn't Imperial / Crimson Fist unless we have to.

It is rare to see us stoop low enough to aid others.

On the other hand, maybe the Sisters are offering something the Templars cannot get from their Battle Brothers...

[Melissia]

Which would obviously be a reference to exorcists, because both parties are too religious to do what the obvious answer is.

[eldargal]

I'm going to stay quietly hopeful about a Sisters codex until we get official word one way or the other.

Yay!

[S00N3R FR3AK]

Thats all true, but we usually see a removal maybe 3 or 4 months out from such an event. I think I can reasonably certain that GW is not putting out any type of Inquisition/WH/DH ciodex in that time frame.

I'd be pleased if they did however. If they still had a decent stock however, why remove it from being ordered at all? That makes no sense to me. That and it hasn't been removed from the US site, just the troops box and that hasn't been removed fully yet since it pops up in the also featured products.

Well it still shows up but may not be purchasable. A few months there was a big marine box that showed up that hadn't been available for awhile. I could add it to the cart but would get a error if I tried to checkout.

[Necrosis]

On a side note, It recently occurred to me as I typed this that a new SoB army could/would/should have the texture point of accessing the SM vehicle STCs but at lower cost from BS3. Just imagine a 65 point base predator...and that's not even to start on the discounts that a BS3 LRC might accrue (while having Twinlink make up for most of it).

You do realize all sisters are BS4.

[The.Justinian]

You do realize all sisters are BS4.

I do. I just thought it would be an interesting textural differentiation, making a different dimension in tanks possible with the existing models. It could easily be explained away as What they have their men do, or their new sisters, etc. Most chapters have scouts; perhaps sisters have tank crews.

[DarkLink]

I do. I just thought it would be an interesting textural differentiation, making a different dimension in tanks possible with the existing models. It could easily be explained away as What they have their men do, or their new sisters, etc. Most chapters have scouts; perhaps sisters have tank crews.

Well, all their tanks are currently BS 4, so apparently not...

[MarshalAdamar]

As a Templar player I hope and pray that they do not do some kind of Templars/SoB codex for both our sakes.

I am looking forward to making a SoB army when they give me a new codex and more importantly plastic mini’s.

I think that to combine them would be a travesty to both armies. The sisters are fully capable of being a well rounded super cool army that; while marine-esque are very different and interesting.

Plus I don't want my codex nerfed because they're trying to cram too much into one codex.

[Melissia]

Plus I don't want my codex nerfed because they're trying to cram too much into one codex.

And that's exactly how I feel about the Inquisition...



As for the Sisters' novitiates (yes, that's what they are called)? They are trained at the Schola Progenium, and then at the convent. It's assumed that they're BS4 before they ever put on a set of power armor or have the honor of driving a vehicle.

[The.Justinian]

And that's exactly how I feel about the Inquisition...



As for the Sisters' novitiates (yes, that's what they are called)? They are trained at the Schola Progenium, and then at the convent. It's assumed that they're BS4 before they ever put on a set of power armor or have the honor of driving a vehicle.

I had a feeling that there would be something in the BG that would argue against my hypothesis. There's always a fair amount of little retcon in each new codex, usually inoffensive stuff, so I wouldn't rule it out.

On the spectrum of armies within the imperium, I've always liked how the sisters sit on a 'durability under fire' point without being (theoretically) as costly as a marine. When I supposed what I did, I was looking to project the 'abundant, durable' ethos that Sisters' foot troops posess onto their vehicles.

Every 5th edition codex, aside from demons, has featured a heavy complement of vehicles and we can expect that no less will be true in this case. I was pretty dissapointed by the fact that the entries for SWolves were there, but there was no depth ruleswise invested into them...Just trying to brainstorm some means of alternating that for the future.

In any case, is it indeed true that the rhino/speeder/raider chassis spectrum would be welcome under Sororitas command (according to the experts we have here?). I often paint and detail vehicles for friends, and I'd love to be painting up a Sisters' land speeder one day.

[Melissia]

Keep in mind that the schola progenium is where the Stormtroopers and Commissars are trained, and they are also all BS4.


As for vehicles, I'd rather have Sisters bikes than land speeders. They're cooler after all.

[Faultie]

Keep in mind that the schola progenium is where the Stormtroopers and Commissars are trained, and they are also all BS4.
Also Arbites are BS4, and Schola Progenium raised...I think advanced marksmanship is probably required coursework.

Also, Sisters on bikes is okay...I'd like to see Sisters with the gear of Shock Teams/Crusaders - Suppression Shield and Power Weapon.

[Nabterayl]

In any case, is it indeed true that the rhino/speeder/raider chassis spectrum would be welcome under Sororitas command (according to the experts we have here?). I often paint and detail vehicles for friends, and I'd love to be painting up a Sisters' land speeder one day.
According to the current state of the fluff (as you say, sales could always drive a retcon), no. Imperial Armour 2 states that Land Speeders entered service toward the end of the Great Crusade, and originally were issued to all of the Emperor's forces (like the Land Raider). The book goes on to state that "Now those that remain, and all those that are newly constructed, are allotted only to the Space Marine Chapters" (also like the Land Raider).

So according to the current state of the fluff, Land Speeders are a space marine exclusive. There is room for movement there, of course; - the Repressor, after all, was originally an Arbites exclusive - but it would be an expansion of the fluff, not filling in a blank area within the existing boundaries.

It's worth noting that IA2 also mentions that anti-gravitic technology in general is viewed as black technology by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and so only a worthy few are taught its dangerous secrets. According to IA2 this apparently includes techmarines, who receive special training in anti-gravitic technology as part of their training with the AM, but outside the Astartes only a few high-ranking tech-magi are privy to anti-gravitic tech. This is an obstacle that Sororitas Land Speeders fluff would want to take note of. Even if a Sororitas convent did come into possession of Land Speeders, it's very unlikely that their support techpriests would be able to service the anti-gravitic plates on the vehicles. There are ways around that, of course (I'd love to see a Land Speeder converted to stay aloft through the use of jet engines because its anti-grav plates had broken down), but it's something to note.

[andrewm9]

Although I want to avoid being wishlisty, I think the Celestian bodyguard will have a 2 attack base since they are all premier martial artists and wil have 2+ save along the lines of "blessed armor" or something like that. They will have a power sword, bolt pistol and maybe an option for a praesidium protectiva. Don't take it as gospel as I have no idea, but these are my thoughts. They will likely have additonal gear options along the lines of a space marine command squad with a focus on the holy trinity of melta, bolter, flamer. 10 to 1 they also have Sister Hospitaller (or an option to have) in there and it gives the squad Feel No Pain.

[Melissia]

To build off of andrewm9's post, how about this? To define the terms, an Eloheim is the name for those ranked Palatine or higher.


Eloheim Bodyguard:

BS4 / WS4 / S3 / T3 / Wn1 / I4 / A1(2) / Ld10 / 2+ save
Equipment:
-- Blessed Armor (2+ armor save, Shield of Faith becomes 3+ instead of 5+)
-- Twin Storm Bolters (R24", S4 AP5, Assault 4)
-- Option to change this for Storm Bolter and Power Weapon, with the Storm Bolter counting as an extra CCW

The other option is for Seraphim as bodyguards, allowing for a jump pack canoness to still have a retinue.

[The.Justinian]

As for vehicles, I'd rather have Sisters bikes than land speeders. They're cooler after all.

Unddoubtedly bikes would have a lot more modelling opportunities, not to mention looking great as an end product. Land Speeders have a pretty lmited set of options, not to mention narrow tactical role.

[S0ULDU5T]

So...let me make sure I have this straight...the product line for SoB and DH are being discontinued. Without any official word on that interest being revisted, all we know for sure is the products are unavialable so it's not an assumption to say that the Sisters of Battles armies and Deamonhunters are dead.

Now speculation might assume a revisit later, but since theres no confirmation, I think we have a ToD on these armies.

As much as this sucks becuase I like the fluff they both brought to the universe, it does make a little sense. So many people have said that, gameplay-wise, SoB are pretty much female SM and Deamonhunters are even more elite SM - this combined with dwindling sells and more non-Imperium books needing updates makes some sense.

Silver lining - perhaps it's better this way than have your books get neutered like the Tyranids.

[daboarder]

I base my optimism off of the models planned for release, which suggested a preacher, a priest, a confessor, and varied Sororitas models.

Such variety wouldn't be in an Inquisition codex, but it WOULD be in a Sisters codex.

except rumors havr also suggested that thier are GK models planned for release aswell. hinting more at a combined codex.

[sebi81]

what makes me believe that a combined inquisition codex is possible, is the amount of list entries in the new codizes. there are about thirty, if I did count right. so it would not be a problem to do 10 different entries for GK, 10 for SoB and 10 for Inquisition itself. this would even increase all three factions (there are currently 7 different GK entries in the list, including captain stern) and could be done in one codex. and both the sisters and grey knight players would buy it...

and to say something about the fluff of sisters land speeders/raiders... a not so long time ago plasma cannons were said to be out of or at least very rare in production in the imperium and therefore rare weapons which weren´t used in large amounts... now even a sentinel can field one.
Having said this, I don´t think it would be a problem for GW to say, that the rare and space marine only vehicles are also used by the sisters. especially when their background of being the soldiers of the ordo hereticus is strengthend in a combined codex.

[andrewm9]

So...let me make sure I have this straight...the product line for SoB and DH are being discontinued. Without any official word on that interest being revisted, all we know for sure is the products are unavialable so it's not an assumption to say that the Sisters of Battles armies and Deamonhunters are dead.

Now speculation might assume a revisit later, but since theres no confirmation, I think we have a ToD on these armies.

As much as this sucks becuase I like the fluff they both brought to the universe, it does make a little sense. So many people have said that, gameplay-wise, SoB are pretty much female SM and Deamonhunters are even more elite SM - this combined with dwindling sells and more non-Imperium books needing updates makes some sense.

Silver lining - perhaps it's better this way than have your books get neutered like the Tyranids.

Who says they are discontinuing it? That would seem unlikely given what we have heard. The removal of a single box would not herald that. More likely they are preparing for new material. Given its "niche" status they are removing stuff earlier than they normally would like say a year out.

[DarkLink]

So...let me make sure I have this straight...the product line for SoB and DH are being discontinued. Without any official word on that interest being revisted, all we know for sure is the products are unavialable so it's not an assumption to say that the Sisters of Battles armies and Deamonhunters are dead.


Discontinuing old stuff before a new codex is standard practice. In fact, I think GW dropped a bunch of SW stuff near the end of '08, then released the codex in '09, nearly a year later.

And we do have some very solid rumors, from a couple sources, that Grey Knights and Sisters are in the works. The only real question is when.



Silver lining - perhaps it's better this way than have your books get neutered like the Tyranids.

It'd be hard to neuter the Grey Knight codex, from where it is now:(.

[Faultie]

It'd be hard to neuter the Grey Knight codex, from where it is now:(.
Grey Knights Assault Cannons - Range 12, Rapid Fire ?

[Melissia]

except rumors havr also suggested that thier are GK models planned for release aswell. hinting more at a combined codex.

Except that the most recent rumors state that the codex planned for release late this year and early next year is a GREY KNIGHTS codex, not an Inquisition codex. Which is good, I'd rather wait a bit to get a good codex than a combined one.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Except that the most recent rumors state that the codex planned for release late this year and early next year is a GREY KNIGHTS codex, not an Inquisition codex. Which is good, I'd rather wait a bit to get a good codex than a combined one.

yep, and hopefully that means sisters get a codex to themselves later on too. IMO "pure" inquisition would be best done as some kind of small mini-dex (perhaps a WD one) that can be used with any other imperial faction. Lets have the focus of the books on sisters and grey knights though, not inquisition.

[Faultie]

yep, and hopefully that means sisters get a codex to themselves later on too. IMO "pure" inquisition would be best done as some kind of small mini-dex (perhaps a WD one) that can be used with any other imperial faction. Lets have the focus of the books on sisters and grey knights though, not inquisition.
Like the old Codex Imperialis? Assassins, Inquisition, Adeptus Arbites, etc. A codex designed to work with other Imperial codices? I'd be game for that.

[Artein]

Like the old Codex Imperialis? Assassins, Inquisition, Adeptus Arbites, etc. A codex designed to work with other Imperial codices? I'd be game for that.

Yup, it sounds reasonable. Game-wise, fluff-wise and money-for-GW-wise.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Like the old Codex Imperialis? Assassins, Inquisition, Adeptus Arbites, etc. A codex designed to work with other Imperial codices? I'd be game for that.

yes, that is actually exactly what I was thinking of, did you read my mind ? :D

[Melissia]

C:Adepta Sororitas
C:Grey Knights
and
C:Imperialis (Or Inquisition)

Would be nice. And then we can add in C:Lost and the Damned and maybe in the far future a mechanicus codex, with all other new releases focusing on xenos, because we need more enemies to kill.

[Faultie]

C:Adepta Sororitas
C:Grey Knights
and
C:Imperialis (Or Inquisition)
I'm all for that lineup!

I'd prefer Codex: Sisters of Battle.

Keep the old name, and stick with current naming conventions (like Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Witch Hunters, instead of C: Adeptus Astartes or C: Ordo Hereticus, respectively).

[Artein]

Or we can put Confessors, Priests, Preachers, Missionaries and co. into the same codex with Adepta Sororitas and call it Codex: Ecclesiarchy.
It'd work fine for me.

[Melissia]

I'd rather it be Codex: Adepta Sororitas because C:SoB... yeah.

[Necrosis]

Or we can put Confessors, Priests, Preachers, Missionaries and co. into the same codex with Adepta Sororitas and call it Codex: Ecclesiarchy.
It'd work fine for me.

You read my mind.

Wait.. does that make you a psyker?

[Melissia]

Well that's modestly amusing. Lots of posts have had their time posted changed. Fun times.

[Faultie]

Well that's modestly amusing. Lots of posts have had their time posted changed. Fun times.
We've been having some issues with posting time restrictions, and I believe Bigred said it's from the spam protection going haywire. I believe this is an adjustment that should fix the problem.

[DoctorEvil]

Which is good, I'd rather wait a bit to get a good codex than a combined one.

Just because it's combined, doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't be a "good codex".

If they were to do a combined codex in order for it to be "good" what would need to happen?

In my opinion, if they were to increase the page count and adequately cover all the major Ordos (including Ordos Xenos), I'd being willing to spend more money on the codex (assuming I'm get 2-3 times the rules and fluff of a normal codex). If they're going to just give me the normal $25 Codex and page count and cram the Inquisition, Grey Knights and SoB all into one book.....well yet that would be a "not good" codex.

[Just_Me]

Like the old Codex Imperialis? Assassins, Inquisition, Adeptus Arbites, etc. A codex designed to work with other Imperial codices? I'd be game for that.

I suppose I could go for that, but they would have to be really careful with the rules for using them with the other Imperial codexes. The biggest problem I foresee with it is that they could easily half-*** it and spoil the whole thing. Also, as I have said before I just really don't see the Grey Knights being a separate and autonomous force, they have a very narrow focus (anti-daemon), and they are very, very closely tied to the Ordos Malleus, to the point that they are essentially the same organization.

[Melissia]

Just because it's combined, doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't be a "good codex".

No, it is not an absolute, it is possible. But GW? Extremely unlikely given their track record. They screwed up combining just two factions in third edition C:WH, nevermind three or four.

As for your suggestion? Damn the Inquisition, I want my Sisters to have their own codex like back in second edition. And on this subject more than any other, I am completely and unashamedly biased and unflinchingly stubborn to the point of fangirlism.

[Artein]

I'd rather it be Codex: Adepta Sororitas because C:SoB... yeah.

GW doesn't like foreign-sounding names for Codices. That's why there was now Codex: Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Malleus, Officio Assassinorum or Adeptus Astartes (instead we had Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, Assassins, Space Marines), or in WFB AB: Druchii, Asrai, Asur, Dawi or Dawi Zharr (and here, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves, Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs).

[Duke]

I agree, though it would be cool to have Codex: Adeptus Astartes it will never be that way, same with SoB.

Duke

[Necrosis]

Here are the possbilities of what might happen with the Inquisition Codex:

1: GW decides that you can completly combine everything which goes agaisn't the fluff and would it make nearly impossible to do a "pure" army. This would cause the miltant arms to suffer and as a result many players would lose interest in it. This also has the highest chance of a Cheesy combo, such as putting a Canoness who gives a special rule into a Grey Knight squad which was not intended to be done. Probably will not happen and is the wort result possible.

2: GW decides that if you take a Canoness or an Ordo Herectius Inquisitor you can take sisters and stuff but not Grey Knights. As a result we have 3 codex place into one Codex. Which means 3 standard codex rules and would cause some confusion among newer players. This makes no sense, cause why would you combine three codexinto one when their still
3 sepearte codexs? All you've done is remove a few pages and the cover from 3 seperate codexs and glued them all together. This would result in a very large Codex and an expensive one, it would be bigger then the marines and more expensive. This would also make it hard for GW to release all the troop choices at once.

3: GW decides to release 2(or 3) seperate codexs, Witch Hunters, Daemons Hunters (and maybe Xeno Hunters). This gives GW more time to refine them and to release their models when the Codex come out. It also allows GW to expand on each army.

4: GW decides to make Grey Knights, Sisters of battle and Inquisitiors their own codex (and maybe deathwatch). Not sure how this would result but Inquisitors would probably get more arbite choices, and radical choices.

[Madness]

I'm reposting here because disqus is pretty useless after the first 100 comments:

Ok, let's put my lorecraft skills to the test:


An army list is not a codex, that much is clear, there are plenty of weird army lists (official even) and much less codices, so please stay focused on what's what.

The Inquisition is a very peculiar organization, it has NO standing army but it can requisition whatever it damn wants, any codex trying to tackle that issue WILL get it wrong, basically there's NO way to do a good inquisition codex, even if you split it in 5 different subcodices with complementary army lists for thorian puritans/thorian radicals and every tiny subfaction.

2bis. Seriously, no chance.

What they tried to do in the 3rd ed. ones was to tie inquisitors and factions that usually work with a specific Ordo, Witch hunters was basically Ordo Hereticus + Ecclesiarchy and Daemonhunters was Ordo Malleus + (sometimes) Grey Knights and it was REALLY weird, specially because...

...Lore-wise, you should almost never field more than a bunch of Grey Knights, unless there's some macro chaos storm going around spewing daemon princes, Grey Knights are a VERY specialized combat unit that is ONLY meant to fight against daemons, an Inquisitor requesting their support to kill a bunch of tyranids is an idiot, and you can't even argue they are fighting a defensive battle, because not even the fa/tg/uy's rendition of Eldrad is insane enough to invade Titan, heck, I'd try Terra instead, it's probably less dangerous.


A codex for grey knights only is (still, lore-wise) ridiculous, they are a small chapter that doesn't even have successor chapters, and every other chapter codex is either of a large chapter (SW, BT) or a chapter with successors (UM, DA, BA), so we're talking of 3000 guys, not too many to justify a codex.

Again, consider that if you see a couple of GK termie squads, 3/4 GK marine squads, a couple of vehicles and a Grand Master, it's a sign that probably Angron itself is roaming the place.

The ecclesiarchy is a very large very independent faction, and while they are more than happy to help with the occasional heretic burnination, they don't need excuses to get busy, so tying them to the Ordo Hereticus is a bit of a stretch as they could really work alone

GW recently is doing whatever is needed to cash in, so any speculation is futile, some market research would be much more revealing.


All this considered here's my final opinion.

What should be done (lore-wise):

Adeptus Ministrorum codex (reminiscent of the 2nd edition SoB one, but not too constrained)
A LARGE Inquisition codex that encompasses all the Ordos (maybe including the Ordo Minoris), every requisitionable unit should be treated in a dumbed down version a la daemons in the CSM codex (like simpler/fewer squad options with very strict limits) so you could have say a tactical marine squad in a rhino or a razorback, but not Pedro Kantor riding a Furioso Dreadnought.
A DK army list for redonkulous games.


What will probably happen:

Witch hunter codex, probably renamed to emphasize on the corsets, released with a boxed set including a blu-ray "Adult only" flick starring a BSDM pin-up titled "Repent me". Obviously directed by John Blanche.
Grey Knights codex with a sprinkle of inquisition in it, with rules dumbed down until the psycannon becomes a weapon most effective versus Tau armies (which have no psyker nor daemons, unless you count Krootox as daemons, but that was only in DoW, stop being silly)

OR

Superduper Inquisition codex with general suckiness in all the right places.


Seriously, there's no justification for a GK codex, they might as well make an Assassin codex at this point... Ooops, too late.


-



P.S. HAH! I managed to add line breaks inside list items with [ left ]

[DarkLink]

We've been having some issues with posting time restrictions, and I believe Bigred said it's from the spam protection going haywire. I believe this is an adjustment that should fix the problem.

Yeah, that got frickin annoying.


GW doesn't like foreign-sounding names for Codices. That's why there was now Codex: Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Malleus, Officio Assassinorum or Adeptus Astartes (instead we had Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, Assassins, Space Marines), or in WFB AB: Druchii, Asrai, Asur, Dawi or Dawi Zharr (and here, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves, Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs).

Use simple, common language, and people will be a little more likely to buy it. I mean, seriously, WTF is an Adeptus [insert latin phrase]?


I'm reposting here because disqus is pretty useless after the first 100 comments:

Ok, let's put my lorecraft skills to the test:


An army list is not a codex, that much is clear, there are plenty of weird army lists (official even) and much less codices, so please stay focused on what's what.

The Inquisition is a very peculiar organization, it has NO standing army but it can requisition whatever it damn wants, any codex trying to tackle that issue WILL get it wrong, basically there's NO way to do a good inquisition codex, even if you split it in 5 different subcodices with complementary army lists for thorian puritans/thorian radicals and every tiny subfaction.

2bis. Seriously, no chance.

What they tried to do in the 3rd ed. ones was to tie inquisitors and factions that usually work with a specific Ordo, Witch hunters was basically Ordo Hereticus + Ecclesiarchy and Daemonhunters was Ordo Malleus + (sometimes) Grey Knights and it was REALLY weird, specially because...

...Lore-wise, you should almost never field more than a bunch of Grey Knights, unless there's some macro chaos storm going around spewing daemon princes, Grey Knights are a VERY specialized combat unit that is ONLY meant to fight against daemons, an Inquisitor requesting their support to kill a bunch of tyranids is an idiot, and you can't even argue they are fighting a defensive battle, because not even the fa/tg/uy's rendition of Eldrad is insane enough to invade Titan, heck, I'd try Terra instead, it's probably less dangerous.


A codex for grey knights only is (still, lore-wise) ridiculous, they are a small chapter that doesn't even have successor chapters, and every other chapter codex is either of a large chapter (SW, BT) or a chapter with successors (UM, DA, BA), so we're talking of 3000 guys, not too many to justify a codex.

Again, consider that if you see a couple of GK termie squads, 3/4 GK marine squads, a couple of vehicles and a Grand Master, it's a sign that probably Angron itself is roaming the place.

The ecclesiarchy is a very large very independent faction, and while they are more than happy to help with the occasional heretic burnination, they don't need excuses to get busy, so tying them to the Ordo Hereticus is a bit of a stretch as they could really work alone

GW recently is doing whatever is needed to cash in, so any speculation is futile, some market research would be much more revealing.


All this considered here's my final opinion.

What should be done (lore-wise):

Adeptus Ministrorum codex (reminiscent of the 2nd edition SoB one, but not too constrained)
A LARGE Inquisition codex that encompasses all the Ordos (maybe including the Ordo Minoris), every requisitionable unit should be treated in a dumbed down version a la daemons in the CSM codex (like simpler/fewer squad options with very strict limits) so you could have say a tactical marine squad in a rhino or a razorback, but not Pedro Kantor riding a Furioso Dreadnought.
A DK army list for redonkulous games.


What will probably happen:

Witch hunter codex, probably renamed to emphasize on the corsets, released with a boxed set including a blu-ray "Adult only" flick starring a BSDM pin-up titled "Repent me". Obviously directed by John Blanche.
Grey Knights codex with a sprinkle of inquisition in it, with rules dumbed down until the psycannon becomes a weapon most effective versus Tau armies (which have no psyker nor daemons, unless you count Krootox as daemons, but that was only in DoW, stop being silly)

OR

Superduper Inquisition codex with general suckiness in all the right places.


Seriously, there's no justification for a GK codex, they might as well make an Assassin codex at this point... Ooops, too late.


-



P.S. HAH! I managed to add line breaks inside list items with [ left ]

I'd kinda like to keep a codex so I can play my army, thank you very much.

[Madness]

Dude, don't be hatin', it's not like I'm attacking you personally, but what keeps some of us going is the fluff, and fluff-wise the GK are a specialist army, not an everyday fighting force.



Btw, I'm curious to know where is the 6000 Grey Knights figure is from.


Also, holy mass-quoting of the post right before yours, Batman.

[Necrosis]

Their is actually 3000 grey knights. Grey Knight do have access to the best ships and are often sent from one conflict to another so they see more action then the usually space marine. Thus it is fine for them to get their own codex and it does make sense.

[Just_Me]

3: GW decides to release 2(or 3) seperate codexs, Witch Hunters, Daemons Hunters (and maybe Xeno Hunters). This gives GW more time to refine them and to release their models when the Codex come out. It also allows GW to expand on each army.

Oh they damn well better give me my Ordos Xenos! :mad:

If Melissa gets to push her Sisters codex at the expense of everyone else, then I damn well get to shove my Alien Hunters down everyone's throats! (no hard feelings Melissa, but I will fight for my weird little pet faction every bit as hard as anyone else can for theirs :D)

The ultimate irony being that, out of all the great Ordos, they make the most sense for inclusion into 40k battles!




...Lore-wise, you should almost never field more than a bunch of Grey Knights, unless there's some macro chaos storm going around spewing daemon princes, Grey Knights are a VERY specialized combat unit that is ONLY meant to fight against daemons, an Inquisitor requesting their support to kill a bunch of tyranids is an idiot, and you can't even argue they are fighting a defensive battle, because not even the fa/tg/uy's rendition of Eldrad is insane enough to invade Titan, heck, I'd try Terra instead, it's probably less dangerous.


A codex for grey knights only is (still, lore-wise) ridiculous, they are a small chapter that doesn't even have successor chapters, and every other chapter codex is either of a large chapter (SW, BT) or a chapter with successors (UM, DA, BA), so we're talking of 3000 guys, not too many to justify a codex.

Again, consider that if you see a couple of GK termie squads, 3/4 GK marine squads, a couple of vehicles and a Grand Master, it's a sign that probably Angron itself is roaming the place.

All in all, good points, and I can't stress enough how much I agree with this particular one. Grey Knights are awesome and badass in oh-so-many ways, but THEY SHOULD NOT BE A DISTINCT ARMYLIST!

They are a purpose designed tool designed for one thing, and one thing only. Admittedly you can come up with ways for them to fight factions other than Daemons (they would have no qualms about hacking through everyone and anyone that stood between them and a daemonic incursion), but this will always be and exception to the norm. They will certainly never be deployed specifically against anyone unless there are daemonic forces involved. They are like a jewelers tools, finely crafted and uniquely suited to the task they are designed for, but uniquely unsuited to almost anything else. Giving them their own army list would be like a hardware store devoting an entire section, alongside plumbing and lumber, exclusively to jeweler's tools, who the hell is that helping?

All of this combined with the fact that (unlike the Sisters of Battle) we have no indication that they ever operate autonomously, but rather always follow the Ordos Malleus's direction. There is no indication that they do, or ever have, roam the Imperium alone, seeking out daemonic threats only to pounce like a raptor upon them. The idea that roving bands of GKs could scour the galaxy for daemonic threats and even hope to find on every century is beyond absurd. In fact, the whole idea of that makes no sense at all, because they are so very very specialized, they would need to be informed of exactly where and when to strike, and that is were the OM comes in (or vice versa if you prefer). The OM has the resources, influence and inclination to root out daemonic threats across the Imperium, no matter how deeply buried or far afield they may be. By contrast once found, they would be hard pressed to meet it with force, thankfully they don't have to, they can just give the Grey Knights the order and then sit back and watch the fur fly.

My dream of dreams is a unified Inquisition Codex that does absolutely everything it is supposed to, and addressed all factions with respect. Unfortunately that will never please everyone.

My second choice would be to see each of the Ordos get their own codex, but proper books this time, with each faction properly addressed, and their Chambers Militant given the respect they deserve. In truth I don't think there was ever anything wrong with this idea, but the originals suffer from a). being very dated, and b). being rushed and skeletal in the first place. With a little work you could have a very nice OH book with expanded and fleshed out SoB and Ecclesiarchy forces (in fact the OH could be more in a supporting role, as they are the most "behind the scenes" Ordos any way), a nice OM book that fleshes out the GKs and emphasizes how intertwined they along with some cool radical choices, and finally a nice OX book with a handful of specialized Deathwatch squad types (say, a troops squad, a jacked-up Devestator style heavy support squad, an assault squad of some sort, and an HQ) and a healthy bunch of alien choices for the radical.

My third choice would be a mini-dex that has the Inquisition in it, and is designed to be used with other Imperial codexes, kinda like the old "Heroes of the Imperium" (not to be confused with Ciphas Cain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!) that was in the 3rd edition rulebook/unified armybook. The trouble with this is, there would be little room for the Chambers Militant, and while I can see the SoBs getting their own codex, neither the Grey Knights (for reasons already discussed) nor the Deathwatch are suited to their own lists. So how would you reconcile giving the the OM and OX a Chamber Militant, but not the OH? Likewise how would you justify jamming sawed-off sisters in there just to be fair to then OH? In sort, somebody is 'gonna get stiffed this way.

[Fantomex]

Yesterday I got to look at some of the new WIP items for 2010 and beyond. A lot of it is already out there, (Ork Dreads). Some of it has been seen. I got permission to mention some of the items, but not a lot of specifics or specific release details.

* New GK Terminators 3ups (5 poses, 1 HQ/leader)
* New Daemonhunter/Witchhunter concept art
* New DH/WH vehicles/support
* New Ork dreads
* New Marine models for a specific chapter
* New SM concept art
* New DE models (these are sweet, and I'm not a DE lover)
* New DE concept art
* New Guard tanks/artillery
* New Necron MC sized model
* New Necron concept art
* New Ork vehicles
* New 40k concept art and 3ups tied to a future Codex release
* A lot of the Missions book tie in releases

Obviously a lot of this just strengthens rumors that are already out there. And some of it looks very rough, as in 3ups with lots of notes for changes.

I'm struggling to hold back and just dump specifics. There is one model in particular I want to talk about, but am unable, but you all will find that out soon anyhow, it's part of the Missions release, so news will spill out in due course.

Right, just gonna wade in like everyone else, and throw around some speculation.
I'll try to remain sensible though..
Ok, Stickmonkey claims to have seen these new models.
Frankly, it does make sense, why would GW devote all their time and energy into getting one thing completed and released at a time when you can go off half-cocked at all and sundry?

But seriously, it does give a pretty good timescale.
Between them, it's Dark Eldar, Necrons, then WitchHunters and DaemonHunters that need the updates.
It'd make sense that somethng like this could be coming, especially given that we're still awaiting some Imperial Guard models like plastic Stormtroopers..
A lot of WH/DH metal models will still suffice, they're all pretty good-looking and all.

As for the likelihood of them due to come out?
I'd not say no to it, after all, after the Blood Angels, rumour is that it'll be a fleet-based chapter next.
Black Templars is the natural choice to gravitate towards, but the Grey Knights certainly fall into that category too.
Plus, as I'm sure you've all seen, there is this rather lovely piece of art that was contracted by GW just over a year ago.
http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g33/322033/322033_1230630443_large.jpg
Pretty good timeframe for a codex, would you not agree?

I'd take a gamble at the better idea being three codexes:
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Sisters of Battle
Codex: Inquisition

Hell, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
But any news is better than no news, so at least we'll either know or not.

[Melissia]

Oh they damn well better give me my Ordos Xenos! :mad:

If Melissa gets to push her Sisters codex at the expense of everyone else, then I damn well get to shove my Alien Hunters down everyone's throats! (no hard feelings Melissa, but I will fight for my weird little pet faction every bit as hard as anyone else can for theirs :D)

I have nothing against the Alienhunters / Deathwatch. They certainly deserve to get their own codex as much as Space Wolves or Blood Angels do, or any of the other bajillion Marine subjections.

However, that is not really my concern first and foremost. So I don't know too much about them. AFAIK, the Deathwatch is intrinsically tied to the Inquisition, its operation and formation and everything about it is. Moreso than even the Grey Knights, meaning that it would really need to be an OXH codex rather than just a DW codex in order to fully fit in with the fluff, whereas the GKs are a bit more independent and the Sisters are completely independent of the Inquisition.

Honestly I don't really like the Inquisition as an army to begin with- I don't consider them to be a proper army. They use someone else's army, not their own. They really should only be included as allies to the sisters, the chambers militant, and to the marines or guard.

[Madness]

Yeah but we're still treating codices as they weren't a limited resource. They are. Necrosis: source for that 3000 figure?

[Just_Me]

Yeah but we're still treating codices as they weren't a limited resource. They are. Necrosis: source for that 3000 figure?

Well I am familiar with that figure as well, I know it from their Lexicanum page (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights), though there is almost certainly an original source, though I'm not sure what it is. Given enough time, I could probably track it down if I had to... My guess is one of the Index Astartes...

[DarkLink]

Yeah but we're still treating codices as they weren't a limited resource. They are. Necrosis: source for that 3000 figure?

Between the GK codex and various other canon, it's in there somewhere. Don't remember exactly where /shrug/. It's on Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights).

Frankly, if any SM chapter deserves a codex, it's probably the Grey Knights. We are by far the most divergent chapter (the only unit we share is Land Raiders, even our Dreadnoughts have different statlines). If Dark Angels, who's only unique attribute is Raven/Deathwing, can get their own codex, the Grey Knight chapter that has completely unique organization and units deserves it.

As for the fluff of only fighting Daemons, that's details. And technically, we fight Chaos. That's anything from Daemons to CSM to traitor units to loyalist units or xenos whose actions might result in a Daemonic threat. The GK codex has a couple whole pages explaining situations under which Grey Knights would fight other enemies than just Chaos.

[Lerra]

A possible explanation for why the inquisition codices were pulled in the UK but not the US: the warehouse stock may be running low, and GW looked at the sales numbers and decided it would not be finanically worthwhile to print another run of the codex in the UK before the next comes out (even if the planned release date is in 2011).

Also, GW may not be able to print WH/DH codicies at the moment due to the printing press being filled with Tyranids, Blood Angels, Beastmen, etc, especially given the problem with printing the Tyranid codex.

I wouldn't read too much into it. The rumors concerning the models seem more substantial.

[Madness]

Ok, no dissing the dark angels. It's a big variant of the codex astartes hailing from 2nd edition (when the GK were only terminators) and it has a bazillion of successor chapters.



And no, the Grey Knights are not a versatile force, they are a tool created to fight daemons, an awesome wicked tool, but a very specific and rigid one, just count how many times the term daemon is listed in their Index Astartes entry. It's like a frickin' punctuation sign.



Of course you can bend and stretch things and justify whatever, but the fluff (bar any insane retcon by Black Library dudes with a Multiretconblaster) is pretty much clear on it. GK are daemon fighting specialists. Not Tyranid fighting specialists, or Tau fighting specialists, that's what the Deathwatch is for. you don't open the GK box to fight anything but warpspawn.

[Jokubas]

Ok, no dissing the dark angels. It's a big variant of the codex astartes hailing from 2nd edition (when the GK were only terminators) and it has a bazillion of successor chapters.


I don't think he was dissing Dark Angels, just saying that as things are currently, Dark Angels simply share more with the base Space Marine template than Grey Knights do.


And no, the Grey Knights are not a versatile force, they are a tool created to fight daemons, an awesome wicked tool, but a very specific and rigid one, just count how many times the term daemon is listed in their Index Astartes entry. It's like a frickin' punctuation sign.



Of course you can bend and stretch things and justify whatever, but the fluff (bar any insane retcon by Black Library dudes with a Multiretconblaster) is pretty much clear on it. GK are daemon fighting specialists. Not Tyranid fighting specialists, or Tau fighting specialists, that's what the Deathwatch is for. you don't open the GK box to fight anything but warpspawn.
Exactly, Grey Knights are a tool to fight daemons. To me, this means that Grey Knights should have the capability to be infinitely versatile. Why? Because fluff-wise at least, daemons, as creatures of the warp, have a literally infinite amount of tools available to them. How could Grey Knights possibly hope to fight that without the variety to keep up?

And no, they're not Tyranid fighters or Tau fighters, but if Grey Knights can't at least hold their own against them, then all the daemons have to do to guarantee victory against the Grey Knights every time is just corrupt some, or simply make sure that they're hanging in the path of the Grey Knights.

Gameplay-wise, giving them that much stuff would be unfair (I doubt chaos daemons have that much stuff either), but they could give them some extra options and just make them mutually exclusive or something. The simplest thing to do, of course, would be to just make the playstyle of Grey Knights naturally counter the typical playstyle of chaos daemons.

At least that's the way I see it. Feel free to disagree.

[Aegis]

And no, the Grey Knights are not a versatile force, they are a tool created to fight daemons, an awesome wicked tool, but a very specific and rigid one, just count how many times the term daemon is listed in their Index Astartes entry. It's like a frickin' punctuation sign.



Of course you can bend and stretch things and justify whatever, but the fluff (bar any insane retcon by Black Library dudes with a Multiretconblaster) is pretty much clear on it. GK are daemon fighting specialists. Not Tyranid fighting specialists, or Tau fighting specialists, that's what the Deathwatch is for. you don't open the GK box to fight anything but warpspawn.But who is to say they never encounter those forces en route to fighting the daemons and chaos. It is not like the galaxy is an accommodating place, and to suggest that they would never bother fighting any of the xenos is a bit short sighted.

Perhaps a splinter of a hive fleet is being governed or directed by a greater daemon, or maybe there is evidence that the an army of Tau believe the greater good to be something perverted by chaos. Hell, how about GK's even fighting tainted marines/guard?

The only reason the GK's as they exist now are pigeon-holed is because of the half a codex they got in C:DH. Given the proper treatment, the fluff that exists in the book could easily become reality, and they would become a much more feasible army.

[DarkLink]

Besides, GW creates all the fluff. They have the authority of God in fluff matters. And they say that Grey Knights can have reasons to fight other stuff.

[Just_Me]

As for the fluff of only fighting Daemons, that's details. And technically, we fight Chaos. That's anything from Daemons to CSM to traitor units to loyalist units or xenos whose actions might result in a Daemonic threat. The GK codex has a couple whole pages explaining situations under which Grey Knights would fight other enemies than just Chaos.

That much I will certainly concede, in fact that has always been my perspective, their task is to confront the forces of Chaos and the Warp directly on the battlefield, as such they would be called upon to help fight off a major incursion of Chaos Marines (assuming other forces were not up to the task). However, due to their small numbers and very specialized skill set, they will not be called upon to confront every minor Chaos raid, they will only act where and when they specialist skills are needed and can do the most good, which means major Chaos actions and Daemonic incursions.


But who is to say they never encounter those forces en route to fighting the daemons and chaos. It is not like the galaxy is an accommodating place, and to suggest that they would never bother fighting any of the xenos is a bit short sighted.

Actually, everything we know about them says that they would ignore them. They have a very specific job, any time that they are not doing it they are being wasted, and there are too few of them and their skills are too valuable to waste. They would totally ignore anything except their target, if an Imperial world sent out a distress call saying they were under attack by Tyranids, then that's too damn bad for them! best hope other forces are available because the Grey Knights have plenty of Chaos action to worry about, and they are not going to let that warp rift next door wait another couple of days while they clean up someone else's mess. I may seem arrogant and/or cold (and it is), but they really do have better things to do.

Look at it this way, any time they are doing anything except purging Chaos or purifying and training themselves for the next purging they are being wasted!

Unless a non-Chaos force was taking actions that would lead directly to further the spread of Chaos (whether intentionally or not), or was literally standing between them and something Chaosy (yes, that is a technical term :D) then they will not bother with it. If one of their bases spread throughout the galaxy were to actually be attacked, then they certainly would defend it, but otherwise fighting "mundane" foes is a job for others.

In addition, saying "well, GW can rewrite the fluff so they fight whoever they want" really doesn't mean anything, GW could also rewrite the fluff so that Ultramarines are pink, and the Emperor's name is Billy-Joe from Louisiana. But we don't have that hypothetical fluff, we have the fluff that they have actually given us, and until they tell us differently Grey Knights fight Chaos, and they don't give a flying you-know-what about anything or anyone not directly related to that.

There are circumstances where they might fight someone else (the Daemon Hunters codex gives some examples), but this is one of those very, very few times that GW stated something definetively in the fluff, and true to form we decide they we can't live with it and have to challenge it. Never mind that the narrow focus of the Gk actually adds to their flavor, we have to turn them into just another open ended take-on-all-comers military organization (because the Imperium doesn't already have plenty of those). Good art needs rules which give shape and substance to creativity, that is what separates it from bad art (don't believe me? try drawing a good looking landscape while ignoring the rules of perspective). The fact that they are narrowly focused on fighting Chaos makes the GK deeper, not shallower, it doesn't restrain them, it closes some doors but opens many more.

[Melissia]

We don't need fluff justification for why any particular fight happens in the tabletop game...

[Madness]

Yes, of course the retconhammer could strike at any time, personally I'm a fan of the Rick Priestley/Andy Chambers flavor of the fluff, which with respect of the Ordo Malleus hasn't been changed too much. And scouring the following sources:

Codex Imperialis (2nd ed)
Dark Millenium (2nd ed)
Index Astartes (2nd book)
Daemonhunter codex (3rd ed)

...it's pretty clear that that GK BELONG to the Ordo Malleus, which in turn is "scared poopless" of abusing them as each guy costs (in terms of training equipment and rarity) like a real life replica of a Space Marine made entirely of Swarovski Crystals.



Again, please don't misunderstand me, I'm all for fun and games, and having the chance of fielding a GK army, but I'm "concerned" (heck it's still a game, I get it) that everyone and their mom will show up at tournaments with a humongous GK army watering down its "rare troop" status.



I'm also the kinda guy who goes nuts when the squad/company heraldry isn't respected on official chapters, seriously, if you want to make a variant call your chapter with a different name, don't go around insulting us lore-seers. Of course I'm exaggerating, but there's some truth in it.



Bottom line: GK armies are ok for fun games, special scenarios or redonkulous games, but please don't rape the fluff by bending their wargear so it's effective against anything but Daemons.


We don't need fluff justification for why any particular fight happens in the tabletop game...
Uhm, I do. I've always played games with a scripted scenario, in fact I hate tournaments that don't. Which means I hate tournaments period. :P


Good art needs rules which give shape and substance to creativity, that is what separates it from bad art (don't believe me? try drawing a good looking landscape while ignoring the rules of perspective). The fact that they are narrowly focused on fighting Chaos makes the GK deeper, not shallower, it doesn't restrain them, it closes some doors but opens many more.
I wholeheartedly agree, just one thing, you can CHOOSE to ignore the rules of perspective, but that radically changes the subgenre of art you are creating, which can be unsettling if people came to your art show expecting a neoclassic gallery and get instead exposed to Jason Pollock stuff.



The idea behind naming things is to fix them so people can recognize them, if I take a pencil, remove the graphite, throw out the wood case and put a Desert Eagle replica where the pencil once stood, I can claim that the Desert Eagle replica is a pencil, but if I tell someone "pass me the pencil that's on the table" I don't think he will go for the Desert Eagle replica straight away, he's probably going to look for a pencil-looking pencil. Altering the fluff of an army and of the game might end up in people not recognizing the game/army anymore, voiding its identity. Nothing major, I doubt anyone will die from it. But I might die a little, inside. Because I care.

[Just_Me]

We don't need fluff justification for why any particular fight happens in the tabletop game...

That is of course true (unless you are playing a narrative campaign), which is why I have no issue with a game where GK fight Tau or somesuch. The issue is that while the fluff can be extrapolated to the game, the games cannot be extrapolated to the fluff. Saying "my GK are fighting Eldar because both are here to stop Greater Daemon from emerging from a fractured webway portal, but their methods are mutually exclusive," is perfectly fine, and even adds a interesting depth to the game (even if you don't actually do anything in game to reflect it). However, saying "I play GK, and in my local group nearly all the my opponents are Tau and Necron, therefore in the 40k universe GK fight Tau and Necrons all the time," that makes no sense at all.

Our beloved 40k falls into three broad categories; lore, hobby, and game. Each one is essentially separate from the others; the lore is essentially fiction writing, or fiction reading, the hobby is collecting/painting etc., the game is, well if I have to explain that part to someone maybe they shouldn't be using a computer :p.

Each part can be blended with the others; e.g. "my IG are veterans of the Tyranic Wars against Leviathan, they have been modeled with numerous Tyranid trophies, and are currently involved in a narrative campaign against a Leviathan splinter." They can also exist completely independently; e.g. "I really love reading the Space Marine novels, I always laughed at the 'Lucky Charms' commercials as a kid so I decided to make a leprechaun themed SM army, they have green armor wear green stuff hats big shiny buckles, and their symbol is a bowl under a rainbow, last week I went 2:1:3 against my friend's Farsight Enclave Tau army." Both are completely reasonable ways to approach 40k (although they don't mesh terribly well with each other).

Most everyone accepts the game as an abstraction, otherwise how could fluff types reconcile the fact that their IG commander Captian R. Lee Awesome has died three times this week alone, twice by Tyranids and once Space Wolves?

You can do anything you want in your games, it's your time and your entertainment, and if you want to have a Stormlord loaded with Broadside Battlesuits as was mentioned somewhere else on the forums, that is your business (sounds really entertaining actually :D). You can also do what you like in the hobby department, they are your little plastic and metal soldiers and you paid plenty for them, so if you want FSM (or God-Emperor forbid, MSoB) then no one has the right to stop you.

The only place you don't have complete freedom of expression is in the lore department, GW wrote the lore and they own it. They gave it to us full of big fill-in-the-blank spots that we were told to do what we liked with, but also with some clear defining information. We are free to make up our own material about that descendant chapter of the Dark Angels within the bounds of what the fluff tells us (e.g. they can decide to paint themselves red and purple and hunt for the Fallen with the use of divining rites barely shy of Warp sorcery, they can't drop by the Emperor's throne room and take him out for a drink at the end of the day) and say it fits into the existing canon. If we decide to write our own satirical, alternative, or just plain funny spin on the fluff (e.g. Angry Marines) then we can't say the same. There are also a few points where GW has given us clear and unambiguous information that we cannot change and still claim it fits into 40k lore (IG and IN are seperate organizations, the Decree Passive means that the SoB are the only standing army the Ecclesiachy is a legally allowed to have, GK fight Chaos all but exclusively, and the big guy has been on the damned golden commode for as long as anyone can remember and is likely to stay there for the foreseeable future).


...it's pretty clear that that GK BELONG to the Ordo Malleus, which in turn is "scared poopless" of abusing them as each guy costs (in terms of training equipment and rarity) like a real life replica of a Space Marine made entirely of Swarovski Crystals.



Quite true, that much has been made abundantly clear, and really isn't up for debate.



Again, please don't misunderstand me, I'm all for fun and games, and having the chance of fielding a GK army, but I'm "concerned" (heck it's still a game, I get it) that everyone and their mom will show up at tournaments with a humongous GK army watering down its "rare troop" status.



I'm also the kinda guy who goes nuts when the squad/company heraldry isn't respected on official chapters, seriously, if you want to make a variant call your chapter with a different name, don't go around insulting us lore-seers. Of course I'm exaggerating, but there's some truth in it.

I hear you 100% on this one, I have very strong ideas about the fluff, though I try to avoid being a dick about them. If you don't ruin my fun, I won't ruin yours, unless you actually ask me for my opinion, in which case I won't hold back (though I will still be polite about it).


I wholeheartedly agree, just one thing, you can CHOOSE to ignore the rules of perspective, but that radically changes the subgenre of art you are creating, which can be unsettling if people came to your art show expecting a neoclassic gallery and get instead exposed to Jason Pollock stuff.



The idea behind naming things is to fix them so people can recognize them, if I take a pencil, remove the graphite, throw out the wood case and put a Desert Eagle replica where the pencil once stood, I can claim that the Desert Eagle replica is a pencil, but if I tell someone "pass me the pencil that's on the table" I don't think he will go for the Desert Eagle replica straight away, he's probably going to look for a pencil-looking pencil. Altering the fluff of an army and of the game might end up in people not recognizing the game/army anymore, voiding its identity. Nothing major, I doubt anyone will die from it. But I might die a little, inside. Because I care.

An excellent and well illustrated point, thank you.

[rbryce]

@ madness

i too am a fluff junkie in games, but almost expecting an opponant to paint all the details right for an established chapter is a bit rich. these are just bits of plastic and metal that cost a fortune, and people should be allowed to paint them how they please. its the fun of the hobby, heck, differing artwork produced by GW shows different heraldry and/or squad markings, so we can too! id rather see a fantastic individually painted army on the table, than yet another cut/copy/paste army. anyway, back on topic, seems a good time for WH/SoB players, new dex in a couple of years, apoc datasheets from FW, whats next? GW seems to finally remember we play.

[Col.Straken]

A codex for grey knights only is (still, lore-wise) ridiculous, they are a small chapter that doesn't even have successor chapters, and every other chapter codex is either of a large chapter (SW, BT) or a chapter with successors (UM, DA, BA), so we're talking of 3000 guys, not too many to justify a codex.[/LEFT]

I would like to point out that the Grey Knights are indeed 3000 strong as sited here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

And I would also like to point out that there are 4 marine codex's, and each chapter is only 1000 strong, because of the Codex Astartes, this includes the fames Ultramarines who seem to be everywhere.
Yes the Grey Knights who are a small elite force outnumber the great Blue Men 3 to 1.

So in conclusion, they easily deserve a codex of their own if your basing it off numbers.

[Madness]

Yes, it's written on Lexicanum, but no source is given, so I can't really make sure it's true.

Ultramarines codex represents pretty much every chapter out there with the exception of those who stray too far from the Codex Astartes, Dark Angels and Blood Angels are notorious chapters with plenty of descendants, Space Wolves don't follow the codex astartes structure and have 12 great companies who are larger than a single chapter on their own, the Black Templars are in a similar situation too.

Also they don't act independently but only under the direction of the Ordo Malleus, and they are a very specialized force whose power is wasted on anything but a daemonic invasion.

[Col.Straken]

I completely agree that they are specialised to fight against Daemons, but they are still space marines and with a few simple tweaks (which i am planning to make house rules using) they are very playable against any army. All they need is a revamp of some equipment and drop a few redundant special rules to drop the points slightly and it is possible to field more than before (but still less than a normal marine army) be uber-awesome against Daemons but not be overwhelmed by everything else.

However my point was that (most of the sources I have found) state there are around 3000 men which is 3 times as many as a normal chapter, which was to counter the argument of them being a "small" chapter, though i can't find any "official" reference. I would have to re-read my codex to see if there is a reference in there.

[Artein]

Yes, it's written on Lexicanum, but no source is given, so I can't really make sure it's true.
Ben Counter's novels?

I believe that there were sources with 6000 Grey Knights....

[Madness]

Again, it's still not an atomic enough entity (atomic as in indivisable) to be fielded on its own, and it makes no sense to me to waste a marine far more precious than the other marines, whose body is filled with wards against possession, an army of psykers, armed with blessed relics of inestimable value to kill tyranids, necrons or tau.

[Col.Straken]

That is why they placed the extra missions and explinations in the back of the current codex for people who weren't imaginative enough (or just tried and couldn't see why) to explain why.
The Tyranid hive mind sounds alot like a Daemon entity, the Tau are helping daemons for the Greater good, an ethereal is a sorcer of Tzeentch, blah blah, the Avatar is a Daemon for Eldar, C'tan is a daemon, necrons possess or threaten a Chaotic artifact, Guard/Marines are in possession of an artifact of chaos, or have turned traitor, so on and so forth, and its not a waste if they don't die, hence why they are elite elites.

There are plenty of reasons why they would fight everyone, Daemons rarely manifest in large armies, its usually one or two leading an army of cultists or minions, maybe providing some other Daemon support. So the Grey Knights have to be ready to face anything from another Marine chapter to a full scale Daemon invasion, or maybe just some PDF guardsmen, or even fanatical Civilians.

[Madness]

Yes they did, and it was farfetched, a stretch, the rules for daemonfight proved to be highly unpopular, too. There's no way to do GK right, and the only reason they are willing to is the trope known as "rule of cool", but there's a limit to how much manure you can feed your audience before breaking the suspension of disbelief.

[Col.Straken]

There is plenty of scope to redo them, and with some thought its easy to come up for a reason for any conflict involving them. I highly doubt they will redo them, because they are so specialist and i belive that they released the Daemons as a sort of go-between for releasing the Daemonhunters, why release a semi-popular army which may not make money when they can release a new army and get people to at least consider taking them as an ally army/unit.

However I would like to see them re-done as I can think of plenty of ways of making them competative, keeping with the fluff, and keeping them mainly anti-daemon while keeping some versatility that the Space Marines have (as they are just space marines). Its all about effort and thought, its whether GW see it worth the effort and thought on this army or a different army which is already popular.

[Madness]

Again, you're watching what you want to see, the Grey Knights fight on the leash of the Ordo Malleus, their fluff since the Codex Imperialis has been that of a counter-Daemon tool, losing even a single gray knight is a terrible thing for the Imperium, I'm not sure they deploy them to fight stuff they are not specialized for just because "meh, they looked bored".

[Col.Straken]

Again, you're watching what you want to see, the Grey Knights fight on the leash of the Ordo Malleus, their fluff since the Codex Imperialis has been that of a counter-Daemon tool, losing even a single gray knight is a terrible thing for the Imperium, I'm not sure they deploy them to fight stuff they are not specialized for just because "meh, they looked bored".


No they don't send them to fight anyone for any reason, they will send them to fight anyone if they believe there will be a "Moral threat" to the Imperium. Although they are the Militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, they are also Autonomous, not to the same degree as the Ultra Marines, but they can fight their own battles aswell as be ordered by the Inquisitors.

[Madness]

That contradicts every bit of lore I've read about them, the GK are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, it's written everywhere, I can see how an inquisitor might not join them on the field at times but they still follow orders.
That said, being a branch of the OM, they fight the OM fights, not all of them, some of them. The GKs are possibly the most "expensive" units to train in the imperium (maybe cheaper than a custodes or an assassin). Why would anyone want to use them instead of more "expendable" units? It's not like there's a lack of those.

[Col.Straken]

Like I said, because there is a significant threat and the more expendable units would become corrupt or useless in the face of it, so the Grey Knights perform a precision strike (which means being in the middle of an army of anything) to face this moral threat, wheather it is part of the army or if it just happens to be there and the army think they are being attacked there are a thousand reasons the GK would be deployed. I did say they are the Militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, but I also said they are independant to a degree, the Ordo does not own them like the Inquisitors, they requisition them, in the Grey Knights novel it even states that they are "permanently seconded" to the Ordo Malleus, which means that they are still Independant, they just also answer to them.

[Madness]

That's written nowhere! That's gross speculation, you're pitching what is at best an educated guess against documented fiction/background material. Sentences like "The Grey Knights were permanently attached to the Ordo Malleus".

The thing is that the Grey Knights are a really cool chapter, so cool that they tend to outshine everything else, if they get inflationed by being around as much as marines do, they end up being cheapened. There's a reason why they keep the emperor semidead in the background, otherwise people would just resort to "Emperor vs Cegorach" or "Khorne vs Gork" powerfights. Which is ok if you're a kid with ADD that needs to buy action figures, but I alway thought the 40k universe to be a little more mature than that.

The rule of evolution is that when something becomes very powerful its number has to decrease, and I think that's also true for fiction, there's a reason why heroes are a minority, and powerful heroes a minority in the minority.

[Necrosis]

Grey Knights can tell an Inquisitor "To **** off". Hell sometimes they will even kill the Inquisitor or refuse to fight along side with them. Look in the Daemonhutner Codex with Daemonhost fluff part. The reason Grey Knights work with the Inquisition is cause the Inquisition has tons of information and Grey Knights are usually more then happy to help a puritan Inquisitor fight off daemonic threats but if Grey Knights want, they can go off in their own mission and do their own thing.

[Madness]

Nope, the reason they work for them is because they were built specifically for it, the Ordo Malleus is pretty much the only branch of the Inquisition the Emperor himself requested, and the GK are its "morally loose female dog".

[Duke]

Nope, the reason they work for them is because they were built specifically for it, the Ordo Malleus is pretty much the only branch of the Inquisition the Emperor himself requested, and the GK are its "morally loose female dog".

Actually, the whole =I= is a 'morally loose female dog.'

Duke

[Nabterayl]

have 12 great companies who are larger than a single chapter on their own
Don't believe that's true. Doesn't the most recent Space Wolves codex say that Ragnar's great company is the second largest in the chapter, at about 200 marines?

[Madness]

Wow, you're right, and that's either a mishap or a big retcon considering that the Spave Wolves did not lose members to the second founding.

[S0ULDU5T]

What with so many Space Marine related products, especially with the recent release of Space Wolves and the future release of Blood Angels, I would rather not see books dedicated individually to either UBER marines with grey armor or lacking marines whom are more religious. Certiantly there is a great deal of fluff for each "faction" but I agree with 'madness' that the more fluff there is the more it would suggest they wouldn't exist on the tabletop due to their elite status or the infrequency of non-specific battles. I think in order to make each individual faction fleshed out enough for it's own book they would have to makes all sorts of excuses (i.e., rules and models) and I'd rather see that energy/ingenuity be allocated to some of the xenos factions.

I could possibly see, given the scope of the fluff and the size of the already established fanbase, the inquisition being given it's combined book but even thats a stretch when really you can just paint space marines grey and GW could release female models to be done with any incursions the inqustion might actually participate in.


Don't believe that's true. Doesn't the most recent Space Wolves codex say that Ragnar's great company is the second largest in the chapter, at about 200 marines?

I'd wager a mishap, just like the amount of people that perish during the last trial the Space Wolves have. (I'm at work so can't look, but I believe it said millions? If not, it was still some outragous number given the logistics of the rest of the process).

[DarkLink]

Nope, the reason they work for them is because they were built specifically for it, the Ordo Malleus is pretty much the only branch of the Inquisition the Emperor himself requested, and the GK are its "morally loose female dog".

I'm not sure how smart it would be to call a Grey Knight a "morally loose female dog". It'd be a lot like bullying a dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BullyingADragon). Except that a Grey Knight would slaughter a dragon...

Regardless, why are you so obsessive over the idea the Grey Knights don't ever belong in the game of 40k outside of fluff, anyways? It's a freakin game, and believe it or not, there are people who play Grey Knights. Generally speaking, making inflammatory statements over issues of limited relevance* that don't really accomplish much other than irritating the targets of said statement is trolling, which most of us here don't want to deal with.

*GW has a whole couple pages in the GK codex explaining various scenarios under which they might fight people other than Chaos. If you don't like those explanations, fine, but understand that you won't get too far arguing with the people who created the 40k universe.

Edit: though you are right about being permanently attached to the Ordos Malleus.

[Madness]

They are not a "dog" on their own, they are OM's "dog".

I told you why I don't want to see an inflation of the GK presence, it impoverishes their cool cat status. How cool can a thing be when you start seeing them at every corner? It's an escalation issue, first you get GK a dime a dozen, then there's the "free Assassin with every lasgun", and the background is ruined forever. Yes, it's a game, and yes it is fiction, but it's a decent setting, I'd hate to midi-chlorianize it.

There is no such thing as a GK codex, the Daemonhunter codex gives (crappy) reasons why an inquisitor might be in a certain fight, but an OM inquisitor has tools other than the GK for non daemonic threats.

[Nabterayl]

I'm more inclined to see it as a big retcon. I've always felt it was a little silly to have the Space Wolves represent the majority of marinehood. This brings them roughly into line with the size of other chapters.

Given the fact that the Space Wolves apparently recruit from a single deathworld, I don't find it all that implausible, either. If Dante is pretty much the oldest marine alive at 1,100, we can infer that none of the original Space Wolves are alive today (well, excepting Bjorn, but his very special-ness supports the inference). By about 9,000 years ago, the last of the old legionnaires would be dead - and where would they get replacements from? Aoparently, only from Fenris, which surely cannot produce so many marine-worthy recruits that the Space Wolves could maintain their old pre-Heresy numbers, right?

[RogueGarou]

Well, a lot of things are dependent upon which book and/or article you draw from. At one time, the Grey Knights were the sole product of the Second Founding. The splitting of the Legions into the smaller Chapter-sized organizations was known by a different name. This was later changed to the Grey Knights being the sole original creation of the Second Founding. Based on that, the Grey Knights probably would not wind up appearing in the Horus Heresy novels.

A minor change also happened to their weapons. The Nemesis force weapons incorporated a storm bolter instead of it beingmounted on their gauntlet. Brother Marines were armed with a halberd style weapon while Brother Sergeants were armed with a sword type Nemesis weapon. This was a typical configuration for older Terminator squads in that the sergeant carried a sword as almost a badge of office, kind of like the back banners. Since nothing much was printed about any of the Chapter organization beyond the Grey Knights First Company, the Daemon Hunters Codex had free rein to do whatever they wanted with the remainder of the Chapter.

Some other little things that have changed over the years is how forces who fight alongside the Grey Knights or the Inquisition are treated. In 2E, if a Guardsman survived a battle with the daemonic, they were probably put to death. If a Marine from another Chapter survived their fight with the Warp, they would be mind-wiped. In some of the books it is even said that knowledge of the Traitor Legions and fallen Space Marines is punishable by death. So, if you fought the Night Lords and lived through it, you were probably going to be executed for the greater good. Tau fans should now snicker.

I am not sure about quoting old, out of print material on the forum so I will not do that but it has been clearly stated that the Grey Knights ARE part of the Inquisition. Refer to Dark Millennium rulebook, pg 22. In black and white it is stated that the Grey Knights serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. It then goes on to say that they are a part of the Inquisitorial force and that the Master of the Chapter is typically a member of the ruling council of the Inquisition. Not of the Ordo Malleus, the Inquisition.

I think there is reason to create a single Inquisition Codex. As such, it could be a large book covering the three main Ordos: Malleus, Hereticus, and Xenos. The Deathwatch and Grey Knights could be included in the Codex along with other agents of the Imperium and Inquisition. The Adeptus Sororitas, however, should have their own book. They are a separate entity within the organization of the Imperium and are an arm of the Church of the God-Emperor, the Adeptus Ministorum. They may work alongside what they view as a pious Inquisitor serving the will of the Emperor but they would also follow the orders of their Prioress or the leaders of the Church. That fluff has been altered slightly for the Witch Hunters Codex but not so much that they are no longer a part of the Church and are now part of the Inquisition.

As far as what I would personally like to see happen, it would be something along these lines. A Grey Knights Codex, a Sisters Codex, and a Forces of the Imperium large Codex. The first two are kind of self-explanatory. The third would include a list of other cool things that don't fit in elsewhere. It could even be a kind of expansion book like Planetstrike, Battle Missions, or Cities of Death. This book would include forces of the Inquisition, Deathwatch, Adeptus Mechanicus, Arbites, and some inducted Guard and/or Marine rules. The inducted entries should have their own rules and entries since they would be separate from the grander organization of the larger armies. Also, since they would not be referring to other books for their rules, when a new edition of a Guard or Marine Codex was released, it would not interfere with the main Imperium Codex. A single list entry for an Inquisitor Lord could include the option to make them a member of one of the Ordos, Puritan or Radical, et cetera, and options available based on those choices.

That is SUPER wishlisting, though. I don't see it happening but it had been planned and tossed around from time to time. It would be nice to see it finally happen. Anyway, in my typically long-winded fashion, I wanted to chime in since it looked like some of the posts were getting angry. Dude is right, the Grey Knights are PART of the Inquisition but another dude is also right in saying that the Grey Knights are not exactly the whipping boys of the Ordo Malleus. Having your boss on the ruling council of the entire organization lends some pull when needed and I could fully see a Grey Knight not following the orders of an Inquisitor just because they are an Inquisitor. That has been shown by the Grey Knights refusing to aide Radicals and even coming to blows with Radical Daemon Hunters. They were created not to serve the Inquisition but to serve the Emperor as His tool against the Warp.

[DarkLink]

They are not a "dog" on their own, they are OM's "dog".

I told you why I don't want to see an inflation of the GK presence, it impoverishes their cool cat status. How cool can a thing be when you start seeing them at every corner? It's an escalation issue, first you get GK a dime a dozen, then there's the "free Assassin with every lasgun", and the background is ruined forever. Yes, it's a game, and yes it is fiction, but it's a decent setting, I'd hate to midi-chlorianize it.

There is no such thing as a GK codex, the Daemonhunter codex gives (crappy) reasons why an inquisitor might be in a certain fight, but an OM inquisitor has tools other than the GK for non daemonic threats.

But who wouldn't want to see the ultimate BA's (no, not blood angels) slaughter their foes mercilessly:D

[Madness]

That's the point, we need to want it, not to get it. Revealing secrets, giving people all they want, is something that happens when an universe is shutting down, like the finale episode of tv shows, to give people closure. You don't want to give closure to 40k players, you want them to clinging on it to see what more happens.

Making something happen keeps people intrested, making too much happen alienates old fans, it's a balance thing. Do you want to sell lamb meat for money now or do you want to shave the sheep until it dies and sell wool?

RogueGarou, as I said earlier:



What should be done (lore-wise):
[LIST]
Adeptus Ministrorum codex (reminiscent of the 2nd edition SoB one, but not too constrained)
A LARGE Inquisition codex that encompasses all the Ordos (maybe including the Ordo Minoris), every requisitionable unit should be treated in a dumbed down version a la daemons in the CSM codex (like simpler/fewer squad options with very strict limits) so you could have say a tactical marine squad in a rhino or a razorback, but not Pedro Kantor riding a Furioso Dreadnought.
A DK army list for redonkulous games.


What will probably happen:

Witch hunter codex, probably renamed to emphasize on the corsets, released with a boxed set including a blu-ray "Adult only" flick starring a BSDM pin-up titled "Repent me". Obviously directed by John Blanche.
Grey Knights codex with a sprinkle of inquisition in it, with rules dumbed down until the psycannon becomes a weapon most effective versus Tau armies (which have no psyker nor daemons, unless you count Krootox as daemons, but that was only in DoW, stop being silly)

OR

Superduper Inquisition codex with general suckiness in all the right places.

[Madness]

I was just skimming right now through the 5th edition rulebook, and I just noticed there is no section on inquisition/witch hunters/daemonhunters like there is for space marines. That's not a good sign.

There is a "Forces of the imperium" miniatures gallery tho. Will we see a C:FotI? Perhaps.

[Aegis]

I was just skimming right now through the 5th edition rulebook, and I just noticed there is no section on inquisition/witch hunters/daemonhunters like there is for space marines. That's not a good sign.

There is a "Forces of the imperium" miniatures gallery tho. Will we see a C:FotI? Perhaps.
Though, in a recent WD, they did include additional Planetstrike stratagems for those armies, so they have not been completely forgotten.

[DarkLink]

I was just skimming right now through the 5th edition rulebook, and I just noticed there is no section on inquisition/witch hunters/daemonhunters like there is for space marines. That's not a good sign.

There is a "Forces of the imperium" miniatures gallery tho. Will we see a C:FotI? Perhaps.

That was what, two years ago? They probably didn't start thinking about redoing DH/WH until a few months ago, and since DH/WH aren't exactly hot sellers, when they wrote the 5th ed rulebook they just crammed them in together.

As for needing to want it, not get it... that doesn't make GW any money. And it just frustrates players like me. I do have Sisters to fall back on, but without Grey Knights, I'm switching over to Warmachine. Though I'm considering picking up a Cygar army anyways, since we've had an increase in Warmachine players recently and I like the rules. It's a lot cheaper than 40k, too.


Though, in a recent WD, they did include additional Planetstrike stratagems for those armies, so they have not been completely forgotten.

Right, they've gotten some recent increases in support from GW/Forgeworld. Same thing with Dark Eldar. Combined with some fairly reliable rumors, it seems like it's only a matter of time, but DH/WH and DE will be getting updated in a year or two, give or take.

[rbryce]

ok guys, been chatting to staff at 2 different stores, and both seem to think that a sisters codex is coming out sooner than we think. one also said sisters squads max uit count is being reduced from 20 to 12. just thought id share the info, at the moment im not so sure, but this is whats been said. what do you think?

[Melissia]

I don't see why they WOULD reduce it to twelve... it makes no real sense to me. Sisters don't have any transport able to hold over 10 anyway, and if they're giving Sisters Chimeras (which would be a major retcon), then I can have even MORE heavy flamers in my army. But still, it's not like it's profitable to GW to reduce the size of the squad, they can sell more models if the max models in a squad stays at 20.

[Brass Scorpion]

ok guys, been chatting to staff at 2 different stores, and both seem to think that a sisters codex is coming out sooner than we think.With good reason.

[Faultie]

With good reason.

What do you know, Brass Scorpion? Spill it! What's the word from Glen Burnie?!

[Aegis]

I don't see why they WOULD reduce it to twelve... it makes no real sense to me. Sisters don't have any transport able to hold over 10 anyway, and if they're giving Sisters Chimeras (which would be a major retcon), then I can have even MORE heavy flamers in my army. But still, it's not like it's profitable to GW to reduce the size of the squad, they can sell more models if the max models in a squad stays at 20.
They could be tinkering with official rules for Repressors, making them more Chimera like.... But then, it is fun to wish...

[Melissia]

So they'd make Repressors into rhinos that not only hold more, but have more fire points and a heavy flamer? That sounds a bit too good to be true :P

[DarkLink]

So they'd make Repressors into rhinos that not only hold more, but have more fire points and a heavy flamer? That sounds a bit too good to be true :P

I wouldn't complain. Unless it ends up being, like, 70pts base or something.

[Brass Scorpion]

And given the overall hostile feelings toward a WH/DH mashup, this might be a least worst option if the SoBs don't get a Codex of their own.Many are not hostile to the idea.

[DarkLink]

Many are not hostile to the idea.

It seems to be a like it or hate it idea. Some people cringe at the thought, other are ok with it. I don't think many would prefer a single codex over multiple ones, though.

[Melissia]

Many people don't hate the idea of a combined codex. Other people actually play the army!

Snide remarks aside, this is not a thread about crappy ideas like the combined codex, so let's not get bogged down in that discussion kthxbai.

[Brass Scorpion]

I don't think many would prefer a single codex over multiple ones, though.
For many, expectations are often the first step on the road to disappointment.

[Melissia]

And for others, it's better to argue for the best solution rather than sit around wallowing in a solution which is akin to the stuff inside latrines :P

[Brass Scorpion]

I don't think the subtext of my last two posts is being read. ;)

[BuFFo]

I don't think the subtext of my last two posts is being read. ;)

Understatement of the century....

[Lord Azaghul]

I don't think the subtext of my last two posts is being read. ;)

I've actually give up reading her post all together.

Sort of like the old comic 'kathy' in the news paper:
when I was a kid a read if every day for like 2 years, it was never funny, never interesting, and said alot of the same stuff over and over...so I just started ignoring it.
The papers better now.:D

[Melissia]

I did get the subtext. I just don't like it.

[Faultie]

I did get the subtext. I just don't like it.

She doesn't get it. :p

[Melissia]

Maybe. I don't claim to be the most socially adept person on this site.

[DarkLink]

8-11 characters(the new norm) in either army seems like stretching it a bit..so either lots of new units or its combined.

poor deathwatch...some day

some day

Nah, not a problem for Sisters. And Grey Knights need a big overhaul in order to get their own codex anyways, so I don't see why creating a bunch of SC's would be a problem there.

[Melissia]

For Sisters? There's several characters to draw from already, and that's not including Ecclesiarchal ones... here's a quick list off the top of my head of current Sisters of Battle characters that aren't from novels (most of whom have Saint or Living Saint before their name, so I thought it redundant to include that bit):

Celestine
Sabbat
Praxedes
Helena
Alicia Dominica
Arabella
Katherine
Lucia
Mina
Silvana

This is without using the Ecclesiarchal characters such as Dolan, whom would be utterly epic, and probably isn't complete, and certainly they can make up plenty more.

[Duke]

Yea lots of named Characters is neat... In my new blood angels codex we will have lots of named characters. I'm glad my blood angels won't be mixed with dark angels like in the old days. The blood Angels codex is going to be so awesome cause the fluff is great, way better than any non-blood Angels codex

blood angels, blood angels, blood angels...

... Oh wait did I just thread Jack a Sisters thread? Lmao

[thecactusman17]

A few things.

First, the blackshirt at my local store warned me off of buying Imperial Guard units to ally my SoB/GK/=I= to. He seemed to believe that some form of new codex for one or both factions would come very soon, within the year if not before summer. This certainly lines up with the rumors of being just after Blood Angels. However, previous Regionals, Blackshirts and Redshirts felt that they were essentially frozen out of the loop on this sort of info, I even heard them complain to the west coast director once when he was in the store about the lack of ability to really aid players when new codexes/armybooks were on the horizon.

Here is why I think that GKs, Sisters (my favorite army), and Inquisition/Ecchlesiarchy are going to get a single book.

Normally, 3+ save armies are big sellers. With two of the most unique factions in the game, it would make a certain level of sense for Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters as we know them now to be big sellers on a rerelease. But there's a problem. A serious problem.

In most stores, nobody (or next to nobody) plays these armies. Especially Sisters of Battle.

This proves a very serious challenge. The biggest issue is that sales of one faction will continue to stagnate while the other sees a brief jump.

So GW needs serious impetus to give the ENTIRE Inquisition a bump at the same time if it wants to seriously sell models. And with the way that our multi-codex books are slowly gaining ire from some hobbyists as unconsidered 3rd edition weirdness comes into play it is likely that the ability to mix forces will be stripped--which throws several player's carefully designed and themed lists straight out the window.

So what does GW need to do?

GW needs to produce a codex that can reliably field multiple heavily themed Imperium lists. And it has a choice: do it with two or more releases that will either be terribly cut-and-paste throughout many units (such as the current books) OR will offer the potential for a less themed army than originally available. Which will be a bad thing in some respects, but will still sell models and boost multiple model ranges.

The best way that this can be done is by releasing a single codex that does the following:

-Allows the original four represented factions--Inquisition, both Ordo Militants, and the Ecchlesiarchy--to be played either separately or together just as they are now.

-Allows people with the existing model range or completed armies to re-enter the game under 5th edition

-Sells multiple new model runs fairly quickly.

Lets take a quick look at the existing model range needs:

-Model choices in plastic that represent EXACTLY what they are (no more Cadians as ISTs or Astropath-Quisitors for example, and plastic PAGKs/SOBs).

The Inquisitor models except for one AWESOME range from mediocre to terrible. so it's no surprise that more than a few people play their Inquisitors with other models. But probably less anticipated was the fact that nobody wanted to pay $50 for a stormtrooper squad whose only benefit was potential overcosted access to the wargear list. Oh, and metal models means that for me and others, it's paint and not design that picks out our squad leaders. If my army looks like an unpainted version of the box cover, then it's bad and I should feel bad.

-Options for more unique support units and vehicles (especially on the Daemonhunters/GK side)

Sisters and Grey Knights have this the worst. At least for sisters, there are five highly unique units--Battle Sisters, Seraphim, Retributors, Repentia, and Exorcists. Grey Knights have TWO unit types and a single special character. Inquisitors at least get to tool up their squads to either get more special weapons or heavy weapons. Otherwise, you ally them to a new guard army to better reflect their forces' elite nature.

And if you take a CC Inquisitor, you're just stupid.

-More defined roles for heroes.

The defining thing about HQ options in both current codexes is how USELESS they are. 145 points for an unnamed character who gets a minor statline boost and a upgraded CC weapon to show for it. 4 acts of additional faith at 11.25 points a pop. Inquisitors who only benefit when accompanied by retinues that either turn them into a devastator squad or a cheesey anti-deployment army depending on whom you play. None of these guys get to be amazing like other HQs, even at the lower point levels. But their points can be exploited on occasion to give us things like the suicide canoness or the Hidden Psychic Hood From Hell.

-A general re-conceptualizing of the special rules that define each unit and Inquisitional branch.

It doesn't take long to realize that while the lore sections of the Hunters books are great, the rules are in each case badly written and either focused far too narrowly (Grey Knights special rules) or broadly (Faith Abilities). Current "advantages" are far too reliant on winning rules disputes with your opponent, such as the Force Weapons or the Seraphim Hit & Run.

If you rolled all four of these points together, you'd have several interesting options to flesh out an army with. You could field that IST list with a few tanks and an Inquisitor, or "generic" deathwatch space marines backed up by a squad of GK terms. Sisters would still be a fast mid-range army that could be augmented by supporting close combat elite units and of course, assassins might finally see some play.

But the nicest thing would be the effective reor retooling of many "crossover" units, like chimeras and Dreadnoughts. The Inquisition itself uses the finest, not codex hand-me-downs.

Except maybe the Valkyrie.

/rant over

[rbryce]

ok, so now we have a watered down interweb post that tries to say how a single dex should be done, do we think its really worth it? on another note cactusman, if anyones argueing with you about the seras hit'n'run, then dont play that dude, sounds harsh, but its IS the rule for them. if someone disputed it, id just flick through their dex and point out a unit/rule/psychic power etc. that also contradicts the BRB and be done with it. or you could point out the passage in the book that states codex rules take priority over general rules, or point out to them that seras used to be so much better than they are now, and if they cant beat them with their lovely, shiny new dex, then they should go to the training sessions. yet more staff saying this year. i think its a conspiracy.

[Lord Azaghul]

After rereading through both codex' last night it makes the most sense that they would be combined into a single book.

I think the main reason: both books (current) are so half done. Neither book is really independant, screw the fluff, the fluff is made to justify the army books selections.
When you look at: Inquistors, assassins, stormtroops, the implications is an over arching structions, with sisters and grey knights being two sides of the game coin. Combining them just makes sense
I think that allies will stick, but it'll take a different form, AND that is obviously something to be left up to gw.

[Melissia]

No, they don't. If you didn't notice, the Inquisition bullcrap in C:wH-- those few units that nobody ever takes and suck, they don't fit in with the rest of the codex. They were tacked on afterwards and the codex would be infinitely better if they were removed and something GOOD was added in instead. They basically took the units from C: DH, changed a few things, and then stuffed them into what was supposed to be a Sisters of Battle codex. Even the fluff section of C:WH makes it apparent.

So, one last time, in the words of the heretic my Dark Heresy Adept killed a few weeks back: Frak the Inquisition. The Sisters of Battle ARE C:WH, whether or not people like you want to admit it, and C:WH is nothing more than C:SoB in disguise, with a few crappy units added in to complete the disguise.

[Faultie]

So, one last time, in the words of the heretic my Dark Heresy Adept killed a few weeks back: Frak the Inquisition. The Sisters of Battle ARE C:WH, whether or not people like you want to admit it, and C:WH is nothing more than C:SoB in disguise, with a few crappy units added in to complete the disguise.
Meh, I'll just go with GW on this instead of you. C:WH is an Inquisition Codex, and it shows an array of the forces that the Ordo Hereticus can call upon (Inquisitors, retinues, Storm Troopers, Sisters of Battle, Ecclesiarchal units, Adeptus Arbites, inducted Imperial Guard, allied Space Marines, etc.)

Say what you want about rumors or what you hope for the next SoB book, but what we have now is not as you claim. Calm down, cease the BSG curse-substitution, and realize that, while others have a different opinion than you do, shouting them down isn't the only response you have available.

Personally, I want a pure SoB book again.

[DarkLink]

Meh, I'll just go with GW on this instead of you. C:WH is an Inquisition Codex, and it shows an array of the forces that the Ordo Hereticus can call upon (Inquisitors, retinues, Storm Troopers, Sisters of Battle, Ecclesiarchal units, Adeptus Arbites, inducted Imperial Guard, allied Space Marines, etc.)


Not that anyone takes any of those units, really.

Plus, Ecclesiarchal units are most definitely not Inquisition.

[Melissia]

Faultie: GW itself admitted that the only reason it's an Inquisition codex was to advertise for the Inquisitor game, which was laughably short-lived.

It's not an Inquisition codex as far as I'm concerned, and it's unlikely that they're going to go with the Inquisition given how much of a failure that part of the codex is.

[Faultie]

Not that anyone takes any of those units, really.

Plus, Ecclesiarchal units are most definitely not Inquisition.

It's the range of units that the Inquisition can call upon. You even quoted where I said that!

[Melissia]

By that definition, Marines are also Inquisitorial units, and so are Guard and even the Mechanicus, because the Inquisition calls upon them, too.

No, Ecclesiarchal units are not Inquisiton units. There are only three types of units in C:WH that belong to the Inquisition-- Inquisitors, Assassins, and Stormtroopers.

Everything else owes its loyalty to the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost. Even Games Workshop itself says this in C:WH-- The Inquisition does not command the Sisters of Battle, they ask them for assistance, just like they would a Marine chapter or the Mechanicus.

[Faultie]

By that definition, Marines are also Inquisitorial units, and so are Guard and even the Mechanicus, because the Inquisition calls upon them, too.

No, Ecclesiarchal units are not Inquisiton units. There are only three types of units in C:WH that belong to the Inquisition-- Inquisitors, Assassins, and Stormtroopers.

Everything else owes its loyalty to the Ecclesiarchy first and foremost. Even Games Workshop itself says this in C:WH-- The Inquisition does not command the Sisters of Battle, they ask them for assistance, just like they would a Marine chapter or the Mechanicus.

Thank you for explaining my point for me. They are not Inquisition units.
But it is an Inquisition Codex. By no other means could such a diversified force exist, at least not on the 40k scale and materials available, without the authority of an Inquisitor. So the Codex itself is an Inquisition Codex.

[Melissia]

No, it is a Sisters of Battle codex with some crappy Inquisition units that nobody takes haphazardly thrown in in a way that doesn't mesh well with the real army that's in it. The Inquisition is the newcomer unnecessarily added in to the codex-- it is still a Sisters of Battle codex, and this won't ever change regardless of your arguments and no matter what title it has.

edit: Yes, I am saying that you won't budge me on this, in case I hadn't made it obvious enough.

[Faultie]

edit: Yes, I am saying that you won't budge me on this, in case I hadn't made it obvious enough.
You already convinced me with this:

GW itself admitted that the only reason it's an Inquisition codex [...] It's not an Inquisition codex as far as I'm concerned

:p

[Melissia]

People who take quotes out of context to make a point have a spot saved in hell for them, and can rot there for all I care. I could have worded that better yes, but my point still stands. The intended wording was "that the only reason the inquisition was in the codex", even if both wordings actually work in context.

[Shagrath]

nice big army list if this is the case. :D

though i kinda hope each side is developed a little more..something that seems not as likely with a combined dex..meaning I'm agreeing to a degree with mellisia..*shudders*

worst part about it is that it's one of those disputed things that is argued argued argued and argued on the forums until it comes out..much like the plastic Valkyrie or chaos dwarves ..more than likely it will yield the same result.

[Faultie]

People who take quotes out of context to make a point have a spot saved in hell for them, and can rot there for all I care. I could have worded that better yes, but my point still stands.

If that's the case, then I'll see you there.

Back OT: I think that it will be easy to fill the pages of a new codex (even of C:SM size) with SoB and Ecclesiarchal units, especially if a new plastic box were to come out. You can diversify the SoB just as much as a Codex Chapter, and probably even more so (Ecclesiarchal units don't have a real analogue in C:SM, in terms of their relationship to the main fighting force).

Need new vehicles? C:IG, C:SM (and C:SW & C:BA) have shown that GW is plenty willing to create new vehicles and inject them into the fluff. New weapons, units, and characters? Easy-peasy. Many of the models for special characters already exist, and new sculpts of the same calibre of (non-Vulkan) SM characters would be excellent additions to an army that already catches the eye with its unique styling.

If we're lucky, we'll even get these guys:
http://www.warseer.com/gallery/data/536/medium/jacobkry.JPG
They're my favs! I think it's all the fire and brimstone...or...warpfire and daemons, whichever.

[Shagrath]

plastic aquila lander? :p

[Faultie]

plastic aquila lander? :p

It would be cool, but it would have to be really cheap (much cheaper than its IA version) to make me want such a thing instead of a Valkyrie. If I recall, it's as expensive as a Valkyrie, but only has a capacity of 7, and is armed with a single heavy bolter, all while having Rhino calibre armor.

I'd only take an Aquila in 40k if it cost ~60 points, and/or it came with more weapons and armor.

[Shagrath]

@faultie i just really really like the model but thats just me..plus it's thematic

one wonders how deathwatch will be done in such a codex..

but then again we've been wondering about alien hunters for quite a while.

Eisenhorn would be nice sc-wise..but highly unfeasible

[Melissia]

I wouldn't mind an Aquila lander if it ended up being 10-12 passengers, 11/11/10 armor, and around 50 points, counting as a skimmer with the ability to deep strike with similar rules to daemons and drop pod SM.

I designed something similar to that for my Codex: Adepta Sororitas homebrew, although mine was based off of the Arvus Lighter which is much more suitable for the role (having already fulfilled many of those requirements, save for the armor).

[Faultie]

I wouldn't mind an Aquila lander if it ended up being 10-12 passengers, 11/11/10 armor, and around 50 points, counting as a skimmer with the ability to deep strike with similar rules to daemons and drop pod SM.

I designed something similar to that for my Codex: Adepta Sororitas homebrew, although mine was based off of the Arvus Lighter which is much more suitable for the role (having already fulfilled many of those requirements, save for the armor).

I'd take an Arvus too, if it had some sort of armaments option.

[Lord Azaghul]

If they still hold with being taken as allies, and let the WH/DH units take drop pods I will be all over that.
Drop pods are the main reason I want an Astares army.

[MadCowCrazy]

I noticed this was turning into quite the heated discussion. If you are interested in a general rumour roundup I would suggest you take a look at my thread over at heresy. Its too big to post on every forum I go to and I want to keep it updated as much as possible.
=][=, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle Compilation Thread (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55212)

I called GW today with some questions I had and asked about what was going on with WH and DH at the same time.
Basically I was told told they are removing SoB boxes as the molds gets and discontinuing them, the reason is the planned Inquisition codex release planned later this year. I asked if this mean that GK and SoB would be in the same codex and the guy said he didnt know for sure but he would believe so.

I have gathered up all the rumours and information I have come accross regarding =][=, GK and SoB and to me it seems we will be getting 3 codexes starting with Codex : Sisters of Battle this summer, Codex : Grey Knights during autumn/winter and Codex : Inquisition early/mid next year.

Some rumours talk about a combined codex while others talk about independent codexes, after compiling all the known rumours Ive come accross Ive reached the conclusion we will get 3 codexes (codicies or whatever the plural is).

Take a look at my thread and make your own conclusions. Just remember its all rumours and should be treated as such but sometimes rumours are true :D

[Madness]

Tho inquisitors are intresting characters in the fluff, losing that option would be a shame, on the other hand an ecclesiarchy codex can totally stand on its own.

[Jokubas]

Take a look at my thread and make your own conclusions. Just remember its all rumours and should be treated as such but sometimes rumours are true :D
Just read through your thread.

That's pretty much how I came to the conclusion of there being three upcoming codices. I also like your theory on the Sisters being further along and why we haven't heard.

[Brass Scorpion]

Tho inquisitors are intresting characters in the fluff, losing that option would be a shame, on the other hand an ecclesiarchy codex can totally stand on its own.They will surely have a reduced role in the new book as has already been foretold by Jervis J., but hopefully Inquisitors will be present to provide atmosphere and character to the whole thing. For those of us who focus on the hobby and modeling part, it's a lot of what makes it special.

[Melissia]

But if the rumors are correct and we get a Codex: Inquisition along with one for the Adepta Sororitas and Grey Knights, then you aren't really losing it, you're actually going to have to GAIN choices.

[DarkLink]

But if the rumors are correct and we get a Codex: Inquisition along with one for the Adepta Sororitas and Grey Knights, then you aren't really losing it, you're actually going to have to GAIN choices.

Right.

Actually, that makes a ton of sense, getting a "combined" Inquisition 'dex and separate GK and SoB codices. That right there clears up all the confusion over the conflicting rumors about a combined codex. All those rumors were referring to a codex that combines all three major Ordos, NOT a codex that combines GK, SoB and =I= in one book.

[Madness]

I still get twitches at the idea of GK outside an =I= 'dex.

[Melissia]

They were back in second IIRC, or at least they were their own codex.

[Madness]

They were back in second IIRC, or at least they were their own codex.
Uh, what? Who was what when?

[Melissia]

Looking it up. I may hve interpreted what the person said wrong, but I had the impression that htey had their own army list somewhere in second edition at one point, and that the move to third edition was a dramatic change from that.

[Madness]

The situation in 2nd edition was the following:

GK: only featured in the rulebook-issued armylist (codex imperialis) and in the psyker expansion (dark millenium)
Inquisitors: Same as GK
SoB: Codex imperialis and own Codex
Rest of ecclesiarchy: Codex imperialis, some units in IG 'dex and some units in SoB 'dex.

[Melissia]

Which really doesn't help much given the point I was trying to make. How big a change was it from codex imperialis to C:DH?

[andrewm9]

Which really doesn't help much given the point I was trying to make. How big a change was it from codex imperialis to C:DH?

I would say it was a big change. 2nd Edition had Space Marine "heroes" who had WS 8, T 7 or 8, etc. Grey Knights I think only had Terminator squads and thier heroes. Sisters heroes were less impressive, but their average stats compared to that of a Space Marine as I recall.

[Madness]

DK were single squads only, a la deathwatch, always psykers with customizable level, always in terminator armor with Nemesis force weapons.
Inquisitors were beasts on their own right with no need for a retinue, consider that the worst inquisitor was better than a GK (with access to pretty much anything).
Assassins didn't change that much, they just added death cult useless chicks.
Stormtroopers and Chimeras were only part of IG.

Power armor GK, GK vehicles, GK heroes, retinues, daemonhosts, Death cult assassins, orbital strikes are all new.

[Melissia]

Okay then. Think about how drastically they've already changed it. So... why not have Grey Knights that act independently of the Inqusition, even if they do have mutual interests?

For myself, I really don't care for Inquisitors. But for some reason, the Grey Knights actually have some appeal to me, and they're really the only Marines that do (Salamanders do from a fluff standpoint, but their models and paint schemes are nowhere NEAR as good looking as the GK ones), so perhaps I have reason to be biased.

[Madness]

Personally I'd hate that, I loved how they worked in 2nd ed, watering them down even more can't possibly please me.

[Melissia]

A full codex dedicated to them would reduce the watered down effect, not increase it.

[Madness]

How so? First I have a very specialized unit that gets deployed on a one-squad-per-army basis, and only when daemons presence justify it. Then I get a lot of weaker units with unspecialized options alongside the specialized ones. And you foresee an entire army of even blander units with even less specialization.

We stepped from ninja assassin, to mobster gang to street punks.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not really clear on what you'd like, Madness ...

It sounds like you mean an all-GK codex would be "watered down" in terms of power level, but I have a hard time seeing that. It's hard for me to imagine that 5e Grey Knights would be less powerful than their current incarnation, after all. Watered down from 2e, sure, but (at least on a model-for-model basis) what isn't "watered down" from 2e?

It's true that GKs could, theoretically, be turned into a 0-1 50-points-per-model death star unit in a codex that focused on other things, but I don't really see how that's desirable. After all, the fluff has been settled for a while now that the Grey Knights do field power-armored marines, and that they do operate in numbers comparable to any other space marine chapter. Not every Grey Knight strike force sees fifty knights on the battlefield, but I don't think I'd be very happy if the next GK codex didn't allow me to field an all-GK strike force.

[Madness]

I mentioned what I'd want many times, an inquisition codex with sampled & simplified units from all the imperium agencies, an ecclesiarchy codex with ecclesiarchy stuff, and apocalypse only large GK formations.

[Melissia]

In otherwords, what you waht IS a watered down codex.

[Madness]

Yeah sure, I dig awfully done stuff.

...?

[Melissia]

Your post:

an inquisition codex with sampled & simplified units from all the imperium agencies

From wikitionary:

(idiomatic) weakened or simplified
They teach a watered-down calculus class for non-majors.

You want a codex full of watered down options rather than fully in depth and detailed ones. If you wish, I can change it to say a watered down army list, but in context they refer to the same thing.

[Madness]

Hm, yes, the borrowed units should be watered down, Inquisition is about Inquisitors not the other dudes so the focus should be on the Inquisitors themselves, some flashy unit is ok, see assassin, grey knights, deathwatch... but overall the spotlight should be on humanity's best.

[Jokubas]

If I understand things right, what Madness is afraid of is not "watered-down" options or variety, but the elite status of the Grey Knight's being "watered-down."

In other words, when Grey Knights were first introduced, they were a single squad in an army. An elite commando unit that appeared when it was needed and vanished without a trace.

Nowadays, Grey Knights have a decent representation as troops. They're still elite fighters, but as an individual, each Grey Knight is nothing particularly special.

Madness is worried that if a full "Codex: Grey Knights" was released, it would expand them into an entire army. That may not sound bad at first, especially since it would optimally come with some nice variety and characterful units. The problem, however, is that an individual Grey Knight would not be special at all anymore. Seeing a small squad of Grey Knights would be little different than seeing any normal squad of Space Marines.

So far, I've been in support of a "Codex: Grey Knights", but Madness' point puts severe doubts in my mind about how cool it would really be. I already have enough trouble trying to come up with a backstory for my thirty or so Grey Knights that makes them all seem awesome except in some generic, Mary Sue kinda way. If the entire army could competitively be all Grey Knights, any hope of that is right out the window.

So far I still feel that the rumors imply a separate codex for them though. I wouldn't be happy with another Ordo Malleus Codex either if they didn't try to make the Inquisition half cooler though (seriously, in the current codex, they're just freaks to me; they're not elite at all).

[Nabterayl]

You know, on the whole, I feel like GW's current run of codices has done an exceptional job of making army lists that are not true to the fluff, but feel like they are. The ork, Guard, space marine, Space Wolves, and tyranid codices have all felt to me like the codex writer knows exactly what those armies are supposed to feel like, even if they have to bend the fluff some to get it (tank platoons of three? :confused:). I don't really have any doubt that a Codex: Grey Knights would feel elite.

Whether as part of a Codex: Grey Knights or Codex: Daemonhunters, though, I would like to see the Grey Knights get more options, not less. Right now, they don't feel right to me at all - the current codex would have us believe that when the Grey Knights go to war, they do so with terminators in two varieties, power armored knights with psycannon and incinerators, Land Raiders, and Thunderhawks. Oh, and dreadnoughts, except that in the Grey Knights nobody wants to become a dreadnought, so they're presumably even rarer than in your average chapter.

I just don't buy that the Knights vanquish the forces of the Warp with those forces alone. Is every daemon engine put down by thunder hammer and Godhammer? Are we to believe that the Mechanicus has lavished upon the Knights superior strike cruisers, but not Land Speeders? Or that the larger Ordo Malleus has a use for Razorbacks but the Grey Knights (who of all chapters ought to feel comfortable operating in unusually small units) do not? Or for that matter, what about the Rhino? Traveling by Thunderhawk, teleporter pad, and Land Raider alone seems ... unusual for a supposedly well-equipped chapter.

I'm not necessarily looking for a radical expansion of the Knights' armory, but the way they are right now, they just don't feel equipped for what they're asked to do. For me, it's less a case of "I want you to make some more stuff up" and more a case of "You don't seriously expect me to believe that isn't in there already, do you?"

[Shagrath]

this combined codex thing makes me question the status of radical inquisitors.... :( another crazy guard counts as I guess.

[Madness]

Jokubas, yup, in other words, inflation.

Nab, you're right, they might nail it, I'm not betting FOR that but I'm always happy to be proven wrong if awesome is to be gained from it.

About their setup, tbh they worked wonders even with only the termie armor, a weapon with insanely OP rules vs daemons and some psykerness, everything else is overkill in regards to daemon hunting, if you're good at damaging warpstuff there's not much else you need.

I might "buy" (aka condone) a grey knight spinoff, a sort of black templars with psykers.

[Nabterayl]

About their setup, tbh they worked wonders even with only the termie armor, a weapon with insanely OP rules vs daemons and some psykerness, everything else is overkill in regards to daemon hunting, if you're good at damaging warpstuff there's not much else you need.
Yeah, but what did daemons look like back then? As an example, in their present incarnation , Grey Knights will kick butt against a horde of bloodletters. Throw in a bloodthirster or two and they might have to call in the big guns, but a couple of properly equipped GK terminators will sort pretty much any Greater Daemon.

But if a Soulgrinder shows up, what then? Or a pack of Blood Slaughterers? And that's not even getting to the big stuff; what do Grey Knights do to handle something like a Brass Scorpion, or a Doom Blaster, or a Banelord?

We know what space marines do in those situations, but as far as I know we don't know what Grey Knights do. We're told that Grey Knights can handle anything the Warp can throw at them, though, so they must have a solution, right? Surely the Grey Knights don't say, "Oooh, they brought out the Soul Grinders ... well, we give up. Better call the Imperial Guard for support!" When they bring out the Soul Grinders, the Guard is supposed to be rescued by the Grey Knights.

There are similar problems with each of the other Ruinous Powers. Grey Knights, as portrayed to date, simply don't seem to have all the tools they'd need to handle the threats we're told they handle. That's the kind of variety I want to see - I don't want them to be a full-service army (they are still space marines, after all), but I want to see them have at least enough variety to handle daemons and daemon engines of all shapes and sizes.

[Madness]

Back in the days the solution would probably have been a psyker power or close combat attack that auto penetrated armor of daemonic engines.

In other words, I don't know how GK worked in Epic, we should investigate there.

But again, 2 squads of level 4 psykers can tear apart anything daemonic. Anything.

Did I mention they were able to cast a vortex grenade effect evey turn?

Also able to destroy daemons with a challenge roll, the psyker rolled 2d6+mastery(4) the daemon rolled 1d6+remaining wounds, if the psyker wins the daemon dies. Not bad huh? And it was a force 2 power (they ranged from 1 to 3.)

[DarkLink]

If I understand things right, what Madness is afraid of is not "watered-down" options or variety, but the elite status of the Grey Knight's being "watered-down."

In other words, when Grey Knights were first introduced, they were a single squad in an army. An elite commando unit that appeared when it was needed and vanished without a trace.

Nowadays, Grey Knights have a decent representation as troops. They're still elite fighters, but as an individual, each Grey Knight is nothing particularly special.

Madness is worried that if a full "Codex: Grey Knights" was released, it would expand them into an entire army. That may not sound bad at first, especially since it would optimally come with some nice variety and characterful units. The problem, however, is that an individual Grey Knight would not be special at all anymore. Seeing a small squad of Grey Knights would be little different than seeing any normal squad of Space Marines.

So far, I've been in support of a "Codex: Grey Knights", but Madness' point puts severe doubts in my mind about how cool it would really be. I already have enough trouble trying to come up with a backstory for my thirty or so Grey Knights that makes them all seem awesome except in some generic, Mary Sue kinda way. If the entire army could competitively be all Grey Knights, any hope of that is right out the window.

So far I still feel that the rumors imply a separate codex for them though. I wouldn't be happy with another Ordo Malleus Codex either if they didn't try to make the Inquisition half cooler though (seriously, in the current codex, they're just freaks to me; they're not elite at all).

If GW does a bad job with the codex, they'll do a bad job. I'd much rather have a chance of having the coolest army in the game and get one with solid rules but iffy-er fluff than intentionally removing Grey Knights from the playing field.

It's a game. Don't over think this stuff too much. I want a cool codex, and intentionally neutering the Grey Knights just to avoid accidentally doing it is completely counterproductive to that.


Yeah, but what did daemons look like back then? As an example, in their present incarnation , Grey Knights will kick butt against a horde of bloodletters. Throw in a bloodthirster or two and they might have to call in the big guns, but a couple of properly equipped GK terminators will sort pretty much any Greater Daemon.

But if a Soulgrinder shows up, what then? Or a pack of Blood Slaughterers? And that's not even getting to the big stuff; what do Grey Knights do to handle something like a Brass Scorpion, or a Doom Blaster, or a Banelord?

We know what space marines do in those situations, but as far as I know we don't know what Grey Knights do. We're told that Grey Knights can handle anything the Warp can throw at them, though, so they must have a solution, right? Surely the Grey Knights don't say, "Oooh, they brought out the Soul Grinders ... well, we give up. Better call the Imperial Guard for support!" When they bring out the Soul Grinders, the Guard is supposed to be rescued by the Grey Knights.

There are similar problems with each of the other Ruinous Powers. Grey Knights, as portrayed to date, simply don't seem to have all the tools they'd need to handle the threats we're told they handle. That's the kind of variety I want to see - I don't want them to be a full-service army (they are still space marines, after all), but I want to see them have at least enough variety to handle daemons and daemon engines of all shapes and sizes.

On Bolter and Chainsword, there is a group of players making houserules for their own Inquisition codex, and some of the players are downright hostile to anyone even implying that Grey Knights should get anti-tank weapons. They spout off something vague about balance and stuff. Apparently, they've never heard of daemon engines before. And apparently they kinda missed the whole "mech" thing going on in the meta right now.

I agree with you here. I want to slaughter everything. Including Soul Grinders.

[Melissia]

*shrug* If you want your faction to become bland and underrepresented, go ahead and argue for that, Madness. That's what I'm reading in your posts-- you don't want them to be expanded, you don't want more variety, you don't want more information, you don't want anything cool for your Grey Knights. Maybe it's just your wording, maybe it's just how I'm interpreting it. But honestly you seem to think that Grey Knights should be practically nonexistant.

But then, so should Space Marines. Space Marines in general are rare-- there's less than one Marine per planet in the Imperium, and the Guard regularly recieves tithes of more Guardsmen than there are Marines in the galaxy from each of these planets every year. In comparison to the Imperial Guard, all other Imperial forces are practically non-existant. The Grey Knights are actually MORE common than most Marine chapters, because they're larger than most, even if they're also more elite.

[Madness]

Underrepresented? Everyone and their mom has a spare GK army these days.

And you're right I don't want them to be expanded, and that's not because I don't like them, it's because I like them, changing them will probably ruin them given the current trend (and I'm still eager to be proven wrong).

Space Marines. The pitch for space marines before the latest retcon of space wolves was that a SM specific chapter codex represented not just the titular chapter, but also the successors, expanding its coverage beyond the thousand troops.

Assuming that there really are more GK than Dark Angels, the DA codex works for a plethora of other documented and non documented chapters.

The non documented is not just a number game to surpass the GK, it's mainly so that people could use a codex to play a differently flavored army without dipping too much in the "count as" thingie.

Whereas GKs are GKs are GKs, you paint them gray or break the fluff.

Side note, I'm also not a fan of the BT and SW codices for the same reason but they were justified through the "we're big *** chapters" up until some time ago.

[DarkLink]

Underrepresented? Everyone and their mom has a spare GK army these days.

And you're right I don't want them to be expanded, and that's not because I don't like them, it's because I like them, changing them will probably ruin them given the current trend (and I'm still eager to be proven wrong).

Space Marines. The pitch for space marines before the latest retcon of space wolves was that a SM specific chapter codex represented not just the titular chapter, but also the successors, expanding its coverage beyond the thousand troops.

Assuming that there really are more GK than Dark Angels, the DA codex works for a plethora of other documented and non documented chapters.

The non documented is not just a number game to surpass the GK, it's mainly so that people could use a codex to play a differently flavored army without dipping too much in the "count as" thingie.

Whereas GKs are GKs are GKs, you paint them gray or break the fluff.

Side note, I'm also not a fan of the BT and SW codices for the same reason but they were justified through the "we're big *** chapters" up until some time ago.

I think I know more Dark Eldar players than I do Grey Knight players, discounting myself...

Just because a faction is popular, doesn't suddenly make it not cool. Are orks not cool because they're popular? Is the new IG 'dex not cool because it suddenly got popular?

What I'm hearing is that you don't want to risk GW messing up the GK's, so you want them to just remove them from the game (at least as an army). To me that makes no sense. If GW does what you're talking about, there won't be any Grey Knights to be awesome, at least not in any meaningful sense. Whereas if GW does make the codex, they may or may not mess it up. If they mess it up, it won't be any different than if they just removed it, at least for you, since you won't be playing them anymore. Whereas if they do get it right, it'll be totally awesome.

So on one hand we have a 0% chance of getting cool new stuff, and on the other hand we have a pretty good chance of getting cool new stuff. I'm going to pick the option that has the best potential for me getting cool new stuff, every single time.

It's kinda like "you miss 100% of the pitches you don't swing at".


*shrug* If you want your faction to become bland and underrepresented, go ahead and argue for that, Madness. That's what I'm reading in your posts-- you don't want them to be expanded, you don't want more variety, you don't want more information, you don't want anything cool for your Grey Knights. Maybe it's just your wording, maybe it's just how I'm interpreting it. But honestly you seem to think that Grey Knights should be practically nonexistant.


Yeah, I'm confused about this, too. Especially back when he was saying "we have to want them, but not actually get them."

I own a Grey Knight army. I want to be able to use it. And there's no reason to deny me that. If GW were to remove the option for a Grey Knight army, the only thing that would keep me in 40k would be my Sisters of Battle. Privateer Press doesn't remove whole armies from Warmachine for nonsensical reasons, so I'll stick with them if I have to.

[Nabterayl]

If I could take a stab at it ... I think what Madness is saying is really just that he doesn't think Grey Knights should be a 40K-scale army, because he thinks they should be too powerful for that. To suggest an extreme analogy, none of us would really want a new Inquisition codex to include Emperor-class titans, would we? I'd rather have no Emperors than an Emperor that only costs 500 points and is nerfed to match. Some things in the universe should be over the top or else not on the table at all.

I think Madness is saying that's basically how he views Grey Knights.

I wonder how much of this comes down to how we view the fluff. Some Grey Knight players seem to think that every Grey Knight ought to be at least the equal of a vanilla librarian, and hence terminators ought to be super-librarians, brother-captains ought to be super-duper librarians, and grand masters ought to be super-duper-ultra librarians. Where does that come from? It's certainly one reading of page 7 of the current DH codex, but it's not the only one. It's also not the view of things that Inquisitor takes.

My own personal view is that, whatever the power level of the Grey Knight rank and file (and I tend more toward the Gav Thorpe view myself, I admit), the codex seems to me to make clear that the best psykers among the Grey Knights are no better than the best psykers among the rest of the Adeptus Astartes. The corollary to that, for me, is that if we're going to have Varro Tigurius and Mephiston on the table, I have no objection to having multiple squads of Grey Knights, either. Yes, Tigurius and Mephiston are arguably underpowered, but they still feel like psychic beasts. As long as GKs have that same badass feeling, I won't be too bothered by the fact that a grand master can't obliterate whole Apocalypse armies with a stray thought while he contemplates the flavor of his afternoon tea.

[Madness]

In my head the analogy was done with superheavies, but the titans work too.

Comparing the GK to librarians is a somewhat skewed process, they actually work in a way closer to daemons, a unit of GK works as if it was one, casting a combined spell equivalent to a variable-power librarian, in second ed. terms were up to mastery 4 psykers, the only level 4 psykers were named characters (Tigurius/Mephiston) and grand masters, you can't field an entire army of psykers now can you? A unit, 3/4 models (I'm thinking tyranids), but more than that and you're probably using some sort of special deployment from apocalypse.

Does it mean no one is using leviathans anymore? Does it mean warhound titans aren't cool anymore?

Nope. It actually does the opposite, they become so awesome you can barely contain the power, they are, using a younger generation lexicon, over 9000.

[Kahoolin]

Unrelated to the above, perhaps a good idea would be to have two codices - one Ecclesiarchy codex that includes priests, Ecclesiarchy units and SoBs, and one Inquisitorial codex that includes Grey Knights, inquisitors and assassins.

I think that seems like the best idea. The SoBs are a much more natural fit with the Ecclesiarchy than the Inquisition. Does the "militant arm of the OH" thing even predate the current WH codex, or was it just invented to justify why the sisters are in an Inquisitorial codex?

At any rate that's what I'd like to see, two codices. I think it's a better solution than three ordo codices or one big one.

[Madness]

SoBs were never the "militant arm of the OH", it was implied that Ordo Hereticus was buddy with ecclesiarchy and they got to get around and purge heretics together because they both like it so much. At least that was the pitch.

Adepta Sororitas(SoB) is a sub-branch of Adeptus Ministrorum(Ecclesiarchy), "a more natural fit" is therefore sort of an understatement. :)

[Melissia]

The Adepta Sororitas in Rogue Trader era essentially policed the Space Marines, destroying rogue Marines and so on and so forth.

The Adepta Sororitas in Second Edition were primarily and entirely the army of the Imperial Church, propagating its Wars of Faith and defending hits holy sites.

The Adepta Sororitas in Third Edition are primarily the army of the Imperial Church, but also occasionally assist the Inquisition because they generally have similar goals.

I would prefer to go back to second edition and just let the link to the Inquisition go away like so much bad gas in a breeze.


changing them will probably ruin them given the current trend.
The current trend of 5th edition codices is actually good codices and expand the armies and give them more fluff, fleshing them out and making them more awesome than before.\

Grey Knights DO work on 40k scale. Against Daemons. An infestation of 1000 or more points of daemons is an insane level of infestation, and easily the level that you'd find Grey Knights on. Just getting ONE daemon summoned is no easy task, even a single bloodletter can devastate a platoon of Guard before being taken down completely if it takes them by surprise, and potentially rip apart a squad of Marines.

[darknite]

The Adepta Sororitas in Rogue Trader era essentially policed the Space Marines, destroying rogue Marines and so on and so forth.

The Adepta Sororitas in Second Edition were primarily and entirely the army of the Imperial Church, propagating its Wars of Faith and defending hits holy sites.

The Adepta Sororitas in Third Edition are primarily the army of the Imperial Church, but also occasionally assist the Inquisition because they generally have similar goals.

I would prefer to go back to second edition and just let the link to the Inquisition go away like so much bad gas in a breeze.


The current trend of 5th edition codices is actually good codices and expand the armies and give them more fluff, fleshing them out and making them more awesome than before.\

Grey Knights DO work on 40k scale. Against Daemons. An infestation of 1000 or more points of daemons is an insane level of infestation, and easily the level that you'd find Grey Knights on. Just getting ONE daemon summoned is no easy task, even a single bloodletter can devastate a platoon of Guard before being taken down completely if it takes them by surprise, and potentially rip apart a squad of Marines.

I'd love a post Chaos Daemons Ordo Malleus / Grey Knights codex. It drives me nuts that CD Daemons can walk up to my Grandmaster and Boon of Mutation or Pavane of Slaanesh him with no recourse whatsoever. The Grey Knights exist specifically to battle the daemonic forces of Chaos and with a few exceptions their powers are moot to that task these days.

[BuFFo]

Nope. It actually does the opposite, they become so awesome you can barely contain the power, they are, using a younger generation lexicon, over 9000.

Younger generation? How old are you?? This saying has been around for nearly two decades lol :)

[Madness]

I'm 27, and yes, DragonBall is old, but the meme isn't.

About GK, sure, they do work in 40k scale, but not entire chapters, a 0-1 limit to the 4 units already present in production inside a codex inquisition would make me fluff-happy. Ideally I'd like to see the power armor ones gone, but it's not going to happen.

A single squad of GK against a 1000pt of daemons should be a big PITA. Of course said squad should be inside of a larger point-filler support army. Working just like deathwatch/assassins.

darknite puts his finger on the subject, GK got twisted so hard they became ineffective against daemons.

Also a pure GK army vs a CD army should end up with the CD very very dead in very short time according to fluff, that's why in the current DH 'dex you have fluff justifying that the same daemons that get killed by puny IG can kill GKs. Apparently the same units in the same lists are actually omonyms of a much larger power when fighting against GKs.

GKs are not that lucky.

[Melissia]

GK got twisted so hard they became ineffective against daemons.

And that has anything to do with makinga Grey Knights codex, how?

Oh wait, that's right, it doesn't. A GK codex CAN make them good against daemons.

Tabletop does not, and should not, represent the fluff completely and 100% accurate because the fluff itself is inconsistent.

[pchappel]

:) I'd be happy with an update/PDF that just made the GK stuff work with the current edition rules... Doubt it'd be simple with psycher powers going from ala carte to "included in the cost of the psycher" and the like, but... Same could be said for the WH/Sisters, but the complexity would probably bog down any "quick" solutions...

I am a bit curious though, how many folks out there play pure SoB armies? We have one player locally who does play them, but almost always as part of a mixed army with GK/Inqusitors. Does pretty well, but it's not quite as good as the more recent releases. Me, I just have some ancient GK's that I play as part of other forces just to mix things up. Over the years (2nd/3rd ed) I saw a few SoB players, but they were never the primary/only army the players used... Mostly just getting to a "How well would a SoB/GK/InQ only" codex sell? Honestly I can't see the GK codex selling all that many copies, but saying that I know I'd buy it :)... Just doubt the local store would sell more than the 2-3 copies, if that...

[Melissia]

I know three people locally whom play pure Sisters other than myself, although I'm the only one whom has it as my primary army. I don't know anyone that uses Inquisitors, except as allies to Guard or Marines in order to make use of double mystics or the wh inquisitor psychic power synergy with psyker squads.

A Sisters codex would probably sell far more than the Witch Hunters one if done properly and tastefully, with good quality models. Actually, plastic Sisters models is almost always the top request for plastics anywhere I go, both online and offline, so it seems like there is some level of demand there that isn't being tapped.

[andrewm9]

:) I'd be happy with an update/PDF that just made the GK stuff work with the current edition rules... Doubt it'd be simple with psycher powers going from ala carte to "included in the cost of the psycher" and the like, but... Same could be said for the WH/Sisters, but the complexity would probably bog down any "quick" solutions...

I am a bit curious though, how many folks out there play pure SoB armies? We have one player locally who does play them, but almost always as part of a mixed army with GK/Inqusitors. Does pretty well, but it's not quite as good as the more recent releases. Me, I just have some ancient GK's that I play as part of other forces just to mix things up. Over the years (2nd/3rd ed) I saw a few SoB players, but they were never the primary/only army the players used... Mostly just getting to a "How well would a SoB/GK/InQ only" codex sell? Honestly I can't see the GK codex selling all that many copies, but saying that I know I'd buy it :)... Just doubt the local store would sell more than the 2-3 copies, if that...

Pure Sisters are my primary army. I can field about 5000 points worth if I stick it all together and that includes my Repentia models. I know of about 3 other players who play regularly at my local store with a pure sisters army. There are no Grey Knight players that I aware of and only 1 Dark Eldar player and 1 Necron player. Everybody plays Guard, Nids, Eldar, Orks or some flavor of marine. The only time I see a Daemons player is at an occasional tournament. I have a Daemon army but I mostly have that for modelling and painting than actual play. With an almost all metal Slaanesh army it doesn't really perform well once you know how it works.

[Madness]

Scenario:

A small band of 40 or so bloodletters is scouring a city after they slaughtered the covenant of cultits that summoned them. An army of 30 GKs appears. The GKs in a lapse-of-time-equivalent-to-their-first-turn charge, hit, and kill 30 of them, the remaining 10 commit seppuku not to be too humiliated.

This is the narrative I'd see for a match with more than 1 GK unit per thousand points.

Also, stop dividing SoB and ecclesiarchy please?

Speaking of SoBs, I hope they come up with something better than repentia + seraphims + battle sisters with 4 names and 1 set of miniatures (dominion, celestians, retributor, battle sisters). Changing weapon and/or adding an imagifier is hardly a distinguishing characteristic. I'm all for other ecclesiarchic units.

The whole "change the leader, change troops availability" on such a large scale looks to be out of trend with the recent codex, with named characters being the obvious exception.

Tank-wise they need something with staying power and decent antitank punch, possibly some range too, maybe a long range heavy armor vindicatoresque model?

[MadCowCrazy]

A Sisters codex would probably sell far more than the Witch Hunters one if done properly and tastefully, with good quality models.

After reading loads of threads Ive come to the conclusion that you are the most "hardcore Sisters of Battle fanatic" Ive come across. I was reading the 2E SoB codex yesterday and found out allot more about them than from just reading the fail that is 3E Witch Hunters.

So from your point of view (or anyone elses for that matter), what would it take to make a really good SoB codex? I dont mean good fluff and pictures, I mean from a gaming point of view. Fluff and the like they can make up as they go along to fit the theme of the army.

Im going to use the Space Puppy codex as a kind of refference to how many of what type they have so that the sisters could get something close.

SW Special Characters 8
2E Sisters of Battle had 5:
Cardinal Armandus Helfire -Ecclesiarchy
Redemptor Kyrinov, Arch-confessor - Ecclesiarchy
Uriah Jacobus, Protector of the Faith - Ecclesiarchy
Helena the Virtuous, Prioress of the Convent Sanctorum - Sisters of Battle
Saint Praxedes of Ophelia VII - Sisters of Battle
3E Witch Hunters had 2:
Inquisitor Lord Karmazov - Inquisition <<< ENTRY DENIED
Saint Celestine - Sisters of Battle

If GW followed SW with 8 Special Characters they could just use what was in 2E and 3E to get 6, 3SoB and 3 Ecclesiarchy with room for more. There is no way Karmazov would be in a SoB codex.
I could totally see them having special rules for each Special Character. Like if you field a canoness you can field celestians as troop choises or something like that.
Fielding some uber priest would remove Holy Rage rule from Penitent engines and they could be fielded as fast attack or the like.
They have done things like this with other armies so it wouldnt surprise me in the least.

SW HQ 4
2E had 4:
Canoness - Adepta Sororitas
Missionary - May lead Battle Sisters, IG, Arbites or Frateris Militia
Confessor - Adeptus Ministorum
Preacher - Frateris Militia
3E had 2:
Adepta Sororitas Heroine
Inquisitor Lord <<< ENTRY DENIED

Im pretty sure they would go back to the 2E theme.

SW Elites 6
2E had no elite section
3E had 6 (Culexus, Eversor, Callidus and Vindicare counted as 1):
Inquisitor <<< ENTRY DENIED
Arco-flaggelants - Priest required (representative of the Ecclesiarchy must order the deployment)
Celestian Squad
Sisters Repentia
Officio Assassinorum Operative - Require Inquisitor<<< ENTRY DENIED
Death-Cult Assassins - Require Inquisitor <<< ENTRY DENIED

So we have 3 we could use, 2 SoB and 1 Ecclesiarchy. This leaves 3 slots to fill, I guess for equalitys sake 1 for SoB and 2 for the Ecclesiarchy. I heard Zealots or some such was added in a white dwarf but never actually seen their stats or rules. They sounded allot like Repentias wielding Evicerators or similar weapon.
There would have to be some strong solo or low number unit to replace the assassins. Give me your ideas that fit the fluff.

SW Troops 2
2E had 3:
Battle Sisters Squad
Seraphim Squad
Frateris Militia Band
3E had 2:
Battle Sisters Squad
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers <<< ENTRY DENIED

This one is pretty simple, Battle Sisters to represent SoB and Frateris Militia Band to represent the Ecclesiarchy. What Frateris Milita Band was? They had the exact same stats that IG Conscripts have today but with Ld 6 instead of Conscript 5. They even have the same points cost at 4 per model.

SW Fast Attack 5
2E had no fast attack section
3E had 2:
Seraphim Squad
Dominion Squad

Seraphim and Dominions are staying, Im 100% sure of that. The question is what more could be added? I have no idea what the Ecclesiarchy could add, priests on bikes? Just 2 fast attack does seem very little so tell me what you think could be added. I do think they could/would put the Immolator in this section.

SW Heavy Support 4 +3 Land Raider variants
2E had no heavy support section
3E had 5:
Rertibutor Squad
Immolator
Exorcist
Penitent Engine
Orbital Strike

Retributors, Exorcists and Penitent Engines would stay in this section for sure. I think they would move the Immolator to the fast attack section and give it rules similar to the Hellhound. From fluff Ive read that the Immolator was first made by some people and someone else used the same design and perfected it creating the Hellhound. 2E Dual template attack would be really cool but I doubt they´d add something like that, would make Sisters unique though. Orbital strike is something I believe they would get rid of, or give it to one of the Ecclesiarchy HQs similar to the master or ordinance or whatever its called that SM have.
2 SoB and 1 Ecclesiarchy unit in this section, so what do you think could be added?

SW Dedicated Transports 2 (3 with drop pod)
2E had "Support" 2:
Rhino
Adepta Sororitas Immolator
3E had 3:
Chimera
Rhino
Land Raider - Inquisitor Lord only

The Rhino would stay, Chimera Im doubtful about, maby for the Ecclesiarchy but I doubt this as well because the only unit that could use it is the Militia and they would probobly come at a min of 20-30 members. Land Raiders I doubt as well, Sisters wouldnt use them but maby a Confessor.
I guess they could add the Immolator but with its 6 member max capacity I doubt it.
We do have the Repressor though, can carry 10 models with 2 Fire Points (6 passengers can shoot with their bolt guns from the side slits (similar to chimera rear lasguns) and 1 model can shoot from the top hatch.
I dont think the Sisters would use a Razorback and the Repressor fits them perfectly.
Its a bit too similar to a regular Rhino though, not much difference except for the special fire points rule and standard dozer blade. Some new rules would have to be added, maby that any unit can fire out of it or some new weapons options (has cupola-mounted storm bolter and pintle-mounted heavy flamer, no other options avaible). Tell me what you think.

So there you have it, from what Ive written down you can get a pretty good picture of what could be in a SoB codex. Now tell me what do you think should be added/removed/changed etc.
Lower point costs across the board is a given but what else?

[Melissia]

ARco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines are not Inquisition units, by the way, so include those in your Sisters points :P

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

I can field about 10,000 points of Pure SoB, thats without any Inquisitors.
If i add those i also have:
2 arco flaggalent squads
6 penitant engines
DH Inquisitor Lord Rex
WH Inquisitor Lord
WH Inquisitor
3 Callidus
3 Vindicare
1 Celexus
1 Evisor

But i play mostly with just pure SoB, i only add the priest and penitant engines as well as arco flaggallants as there Ecclesiarchy and thats what SoB are part of.
Its rare that i add Inquistors to the army unless against psykers or playing Apoc games.

[Melissia]

So from your point of view (or anyone elses for that matter), what would it take to make a really good SoB codex? I dont mean good fluff and pictures, I mean from a gaming point of view. Fluff and the like they can make up as they go along to fit the theme of the army.
You can see this in the homebrew codex section. But in general? I want:
-- A full, complex army list with lots of variety that is relatively internally balanced.
-- Fluff that is consistent with itself, and even if there are changes they should keep within the concept of holy warriors/crusaders.
-- An honest respect for the faction to be present within the codex and miniatures, not just something to be taken advantage of for sexuality purposes (ugh, corsets and boob-cups..)



For reference, this is the extent of my own homebrew Sisters of Battle codex' army list. It is incomplete, as I have not yet finished all hte units and need to work on special characters.

[b]Universal changes:
- Bolt Pistols, Frags
- Free Veterans
- Simplified Acts of Faith system
- Book of Saint Lucius changed to "Book of Saints"
-- Sister Superiors and HQ units get this for free
-- Only HQ units have an "aura" that effects nearby squads.
- Altered Blessed Weapons to have two variants.
- More choices in general for equipment in many cases.

HQ:
- Adepta Sororitas Heroine
-- Single statline, no longer a separation between Palatines and Canonesses
-- Given basic equipment: bolt pistol, chainsword, rosarius
-- Increased WS, more expensive than the current one
-- Retinue of Celestians, Seraphim, or Novitiates

- Angelis Imperial
-- Two-Wound HQ unit, representing a senior veteran for small detachments.
-- Celestian Veteran statline
-- Bolt Pistol + Chainsword

- Priestess of the Machine
-- Two-Wound HQ unit
-- One of my more controversial choices, I personally found it necessary to either put in a Techpriest or create one for the Sisterhood. I chose the latter, creating a compromise between Techpriests and Techmarines for statlines, equipment, and points costs.

- High Priestess
-- Ecclesiarchal leader
-- Very customizable retinue of priests.
-- Motivational leader rather than combat-oriented.


Elites:
- Celestian Squad
-- Elite close combat squad.
-- Default equipment is BP+CCW
-- May exchange CCW for bolter with an upgraded Sarissa.
-- Close combat special weapons choices (like power weapos) added in
-- 5-10 members

- Vindictor Squad
-- A marksman/sniper squad
-- One sniper with an "Ophelia Pattern Heavy Bolter", which is an anti-materiel rifle
-- The rest have accurized Bolters, which have increased range for their single shot mode
-- Has a rule which increases BS when firing at targets beyond 24"
-- 5-10 members

- Arco-Flagellants
-- Not yet finished. Intended to buff their stats slightly to make them worth their cost, as well as more controllable when a Confessor joins their unit.
-- 3-9 members

- Confessor
-- Higher level Ecclesiarchy official.
-- Replacement for the C:WH Elite choice Priest, similar rules, but a bit stronger.


Troops:
- Battle Sister Squad
-- Not too many changes, mostly cost-related.
-- 10-woman squads slightly more expensive, with the average cost per Sister going down as more are added.
-- 10-20 members

- Sororitas Novitiates Squad
-- Represents those recently graduated from the Schola Progenium, whom haven't earned their armor.
-- GEQ statline with carapace, led by a Sister Superior.
-- Cost similar to IG veterans, albeit with BS3 and better equipment.
-- Equipped with shotguns and infernis rounds, or sniper rifles with manstopper rounds.
-- 10-20 members

- Faithful Citizen Mob
-- Mobs of citizens roused by the Ecclesiarchy into battle.
-- GEQ statline
-- Led by a Priest, has Rage if the priest dies
-- Autopistols and close combat weapons, very few special weapons.
-- 10-30 members


Fast Attack:
- Dominians Squad
-- Mechanized still, but special weapons cost as normal now.
-- May choose to have combi-weapons instead of special weapons.
-- Have Scouts, grant this to their transport.
-- 5-10 members, limited by their chosen transport.

- Seraphim Squad
-- Slightly reduced in cost (equivalent to Assault Marines in cost now)
-- Not many changes aside from this. Remains a hit and run assault unit rather than a dedicated assaulter.
-- 5-10 members

- Zealots Squad
-- Not yet completed.
-- GEQ statline, with Fleet and Rage
-- May take a number of of Eviscerators and one-shot flamers.
-- 10-20 members likely


Heavy Support:
- Exorcist Tank Hunter
-- Changed from 1d6 to 2d3
-- Slightly reduced in price
-- Given a Sponsons option which adds +2 to the result, but is somewhat expensive.

- Leman Russ Vengeance
-- The most controversial addition, many people objecting to the use of the Russ chassis.
-- Chosen to help differentiate between the Marines and Sisters and because the Russ is a reliable chassis.
-- "Vengeance Cannon" R72" S8 AP1 Ordinance 1 Small Blast, applies Melta on direct hits.
-- More expensive than many Leman Russ variants, but is BS4.
-- Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Multi-Meltas as sponsons or frontal mounts.
-- NOT in squadrons.

- Retributor Squad
-- Given extra weapons choices
-- "Pipes" Handheld Exorcist Missile
---- R48", S8 AP1, hits side armor on a penetration roll of 6.
-- Boltcannon
---- Takes up two heavy weapons choices
---- Proposed stats: R48", S7 AP4, Heavy 4
-- 5-10 members, little change to the squad itself.

- Penitent Engine Squadron
-- Changed to a Monstrous Creature
-- Very durable, but no ranged firepower.
-- Eternal Warrior, immunity to all kinds of force weapons (it is a vehicle)
-- 1-3 members

- Heirophant Siege Tank
-- Not yet finished
-- Short-ranged siege tank, similar to that which the others get.
-- Proposed gun: R24", S8 AP1 Ordinance Large Blast, Melta
-- Applies melta on anything that at the center of its blast.


- Cult Units
-- Take up an FoC slot depending on the unit.
-- May have 0-1 Cult Units in a normal army, 0-2 in a supplement (CoD, PS), unlimited in Apocalypse
-- Expensive and powerful, but limited.

- Cult of Penitence
-- Sisters Repentia
-- Only In Death Does Duty End reworked to be easier to use
-- Reworked to get Feel No Pain and a 5+ invulnerable save
-- May ride in transports as long as the Mistress is alive
-- Fearless in close combat (this is a drawback, actually)
-- Slightly reduced cost.
-- 5-20 members, Elites slot

- Cult of the Blazing Sun
-- Bike unit, Celestian stats
-- Bikes mounted with storm bolters, increase toughness by +1, as usual
-- Equipped with two close combat weapons, some may purchase power weapons
-- Fearless (this is a drawback, actually, not a benefit)
-- Given Rage once any close combat is joined with any friendly Adepta Sororitas unit.
-- 5-10 members, Fast Attack slot

- Cult of the Nightflame
-- Stealth unit, has Infiltrate
-- Celestian stats.
-- Flamers, braziers of holy fire, combiflamers, in the entire unit.
-- Fearless (this is a drawback, actually, not a benefit)
-- 5-10 members, Elites or Fast Attack slot

- Cult of the Umbral Cloak
-- Proposed stealth unit, oriented towards close combat.
-- Currently likely to be removed entirely or just completely redone.
-- Infiltrate, enhanced Stealth rules, move through cover.
-- 5 members only, Elites slot


I am not afraid of change, I merely want the change to be a good thing.

[Faultie]

Leman Russ...makes everything better, I guess.

[Melissia]

I juyst didn't want the Sisters ot get what essentially amounts ot a Predator variant. While it is possible that they could be given their own style of tanks... it's unlikely.

[DarkLink]

It's the metal garters that they put on some of the sister models that always got me. I mean, seriously, WTF?

[Jokubas]

-- Fluff that is consistent with itself, and even if there are changes they should keep within the concept of holy warriors/crusaders.
-- An honest respect for the faction to be present within the codex and miniatures, not just something to be taken advantage of for sexuality purposes (ugh, corsets and boob-cups..)
I really hope this is something they address. Aside from what you mentioned, jokes about the unfortunate acronym (SoB) and the "lol nuns with guns!!111" drive me mad. I like the Jeanne d'Arc imagery, keep it up.

[Nabterayl]

I juyst didn't want the Sisters ot get what essentially amounts ot a Predator variant. While it is possible that they could be given their own style of tanks... it's unlikely.
I wouldn't mind a Rhino chassis, since, for better or worse, the Rhino is synonymous with special forces in the Imperium. Assuming they expand the motor pool though, I hope they put some serious thought into the sort of Rhino variant the sisters would have. Lightly armored rapiers-on-wheels like the Predator are all wrong for Sororitas in my opinion. Heavy and infantry tanks feel more Sororitas style to me.

[Melissia]

That's what I'm thinking. The exorcist is more heavily armored than the predator, for example, and it's just a tank hunter rather than a proper MBT.

It WOULD be interesting to see a well-designed AV14 rhino chassis, if they actually made it something other than an uparmored predator...

[Nabterayl]

it's just a tank hunter rather than a proper MBT.
The thought of an Imperial MBT made me giggle. I know what you meant, though, and I quite agree.

[Melissia]

The Imperial MBT is the Leman Russ, even if technically it should be called a heavy tank, MBT is the role that it fulfills. The Predator isn't a true MBT either, but it does fulfilll the role of a light MBT for the Marines, even though it's really intended to be a fire support vehicle.

This is as much due to the limitations of tabletop as GW's ineptitude though.

[Nabterayl]

I don't really think of it as ineptitude so much as a conscious design choice. If you define an MBT as a type of tank - fast, with superior protection, the ability reliably to defeat any land-based battlefield threat, and the ability to do so on the move - rather than an army's main tank, there are really only two MBTs in the game (railhead with multi-tracker and disruption pod, and fire prism with holofields). Those are also the only MBTs in the universe, except for the eldar super-heavy tanks. Personally, I really like the fact the fact that everybody else's tanks have advanced conceptually no farther than the 1940s. It helps to emphasize the "high-tech" nature of the Tau and eldar. I especially like limiting MBTs to the "high-tech" races because it communicates their high technology in a way that has a real effect on the tabletop without resorting to the crutch of giving them better weapons than everybody else.

Consequently I don't really think any Imperial force should have a real MBT. I'd love to see the Sisters get some kind of heavily armored infantry tank, though.

EDIT: Similarly, I rather like the aesthetic of only the Guard having heavy tanks. As you point out, the Exorcist makes a fairly capable tank destroyer (at least as capable, firepower-wise, as a Predator Annihilator), which is why I think a heavily armored infantry tank would be a nice aesthetic fit for the Sororitas. A lack of generalist vehicles helps to emphasize the nature of the Sororitas as a specialist force.

[Melissia]

But then, they are not a specialist force, nowhere near as much as the Marines.

The Sisters fight defensive and front line actions on the battlefield. In fact, the ONLY example of Sisters doing anything other than a straight up stand and fight style of warfare is with Saint Praxedes. They don't have the equipment for rapid strikes (no aircraft, no hovercraft, no fast vehicles, no drop pods), or for insertion (no drop pods, only Seraphim can deep strike, no infiltrators). They stand and fight, and they get in the enemy's face and set them on fire, shoot them up, then carve them with their Sarissas. That's why I said they are equivalent to Holy Warriors or Crusaders, rather than to special forces units. They don't really fit very well in the modern army setup.

[Nabterayl]

Really? They seem very much like the USMC (or your relevant national equivalent) to me. They are trained and equipped for intense fighting before turning over territory gained to the regular army. They are adept at urban and similar close-range warfare. Their tactics revolve around the individual infantry(wo)man and his(her) personal weapon. Their institutional ethos is to smash every obstacle, and they are convinced that there is nothing on the battlefield scarier than they are. They are ferocious in defensive battles but poorly equipped for them as an institution.* They lack the endurance for extended operations that the regular army possesses. They have access to heavy armor but use it primarily in a fire support role. They are trained for unconventional insertion (such as via drop pod or drop ship)** but think of themselves as, and largely are, conventional warfighters.

I would consider the U.S. Marines to be a specialized force. It is not their job to master, as an institution, all elements of land warfare. They aren't special forces, but they are a specialized force, at least compared to the regular army. I view the sisters as a specialized force in the same way, even though they wage conventional war (unlike, say, the Adeptus Astartes).

* Of course, defense of fixed [religious] sites is one of the Sororitas' core missions, but as we've hashed out in great detail elsewhere, nothing in the fluff suggests that they are actually well equipped for it in a strictly military sense (and plenty of fluff suggests they would be poorly equipped for it in a strictly military sense). To the extent that is true, I for one am perfectly willing to believe it not an oversight on the part of the fluff writers but yet another example of the Imperium filling a round hole with a square peg.

** Drop pods and drop ships may not be part of their armory, but it seems clear that they do cross-train with the Navy quite a bit. It is apparently not uncommon for seraphim to deep strike, which they could only do from Navy gunships or dropships. We have the White Dwarf example of the drop pod-based Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which would only be possible for an inquisitor to call up ad hoc if drop pod insertion was already a part of Sororitas training. And we have the example in Faith and Fire of an entire convent, armored vehicles and all, deploying into the thick of battle via Navy dropship, and on the sands of a beach no less.

[andrewm9]

I can field about 10,000 points of Pure SoB, thats without any Inquisitors.
If i add those i also have:
2 arco flaggalent squads
6 penitant engines
DH Inquisitor Lord Rex
WH Inquisitor Lord
WH Inquisitor
3 Callidus
3 Vindicare
1 Celexus
1 Evisor

But i play mostly with just pure SoB, i only add the priest and penitant engines as well as arco flaggallants as there Ecclesiarchy and thats what SoB are part of.
Its rare that i add Inquistors to the army unless against psykers or playing Apoc games.

Thats quite a lot of Sisters at 10000 points. You ever field it all at once in a big Apocalypse game? Lord knows I have wanted to field all of mine, but my friends a little tame in that department. I round out my sisters in Apoc with my custom Stormlord, Saint Dominica's Fury (WIP)

[Melissia]

Really? They seem very much like the USMC (or your relevant national equivalent) to me.I don't really see it. The Sisters are not equivalent to a USMC force, either earlier traditional marine forces ro the more modern variant.

Seraphim might deep strike commonly, but that only makes them the UMSC equivalent within the Sisterhood. While the Sisterhood does strike via dropships, so does the Guard, it's a necessity of futuristic combat, where you travel between worlds, not a specific feature of the Sisterhood. The true insertion based army are the Stormtroopers and the Marines, and THEY are true special forces units or UMSC equivalents.

As I have been saying, they are Crusaders and Holy Warriors, not really equivalent to anything a modern army has today. You attempting to assign them to an equivalent position in modern armies is the true square peg here IMO.


Furthermore, when speaking of a new codex, it doesn't HAVE to be the exact same as it always was. The point being, I would prefer that the Sisters do not become special ops forces because that contradicts with their concept, that being the crusaders/the holy warriors/the Jean d'Arcs, an army of warrior priestesses if you will.

[Nabterayl]

I don't really see it. The Sisters are not equivalent to a USMC force, either earlier traditional marine forces ro the more modern variant.

Seraphim might deep strike commonly, but that only makes them the UMSC equivalent within the Sisterhood. While the Sisterhood does strike via dropships, so does the Guard, it's a necessity of futuristic combat, where you travel between worlds, not a specific feature of the Sisterhood. The true insertion based army are the Stormtroopers and the Marines, and THEY are true special forces units or UMSC equivalents.

As I have been saying, they are Crusaders and Holy Warriors, not really equivalent to anything a modern army has today. You attempting to assign them to an equivalent position in modern armies is the true square peg here IMO.


Furthermore, when speaking of a new codex, it doesn't HAVE to be the exact same as it always was. The point being, I would prefer that the Sisters do not become special ops forces because that contradicts with their concept, that being the crusaders/the holy warriors/the Jean d'Arcs, an army of warrior priestesses if you will.

I think my use of the word "specialized" is causing confusion. Sisters scream "Marines!" to me because they are a small, elite organization optimized for fighting conventional warfare at short range with great intensity for brief periods of time, with a focus on the prowess of the individual rifleman (bolterwoman). I think we both agree that that's a true description of the Sororitas; if it doesn't describe the Corps in your mind, I don't want to get bogged down in analogies.

My original point was that the sisters do not fight like either space marines or the Guard, and having a different type of vehicle could help emphasize that. Astartes have their tank destroyers and light tanks; the Guard has its heavy tanks - an infantry tank seems like a natural fit for the Sororitas. If it was a heavy infantry tank, that would make it a class of vehicle that no other Imperial faction has (well okay, some Leman Russ variants fit the bill, but only the fairly rare ones), which I think would help to emphasize the sisters' uniqueness. Many other armies get distinctive types of vehicles, which help to emphasize their differences. The MBT is really a different approach to tank-building; there's nothing inherently high-tech about it. But restricting it to Tau and eldar nevertheless makes those armies feel extra advanced on the tabletop, in my opinion. Same with space marine TDs and LTs, Guard HTs and specialist tanks, etc.

Right now the Sisters have distinctive models of vehicles but not distinctive types, and I think it would be nice to change that.

[DarkLink]

Really? They seem very much like the USMC (or your relevant national equivalent) to me. They are trained and equipped for intense fighting before turning over territory gained to the regular army. They are adept at urban and similar close-range warfare. Their tactics revolve around the individual infantry(wo)man and his(her) personal weapon. Their institutional ethos is to smash every obstacle, and they are convinced that there is nothing on the battlefield scarier than they are. They are ferocious in defensive battles but poorly equipped for them as an institution.* They lack the endurance for extended operations that the regular army possesses. They have access to heavy armor but use it primarily in a fire support role. They are trained for unconventional insertion (such as via drop pod or drop ship)** but think of themselves as, and largely are, conventional warfighters.

I would consider the U.S. Marines to be a specialized force. It is not their job to master, as an institution, all elements of land warfare. They aren't special forces, but they are a specialized force, at least compared to the regular army. I view the sisters as a specialized force in the same way, even though they wage conventional war (unlike, say, the Adeptus Astartes).

* Of course, defense of fixed [religious] sites is one of the Sororitas' core missions, but as we've hashed out in great detail elsewhere, nothing in the fluff suggests that they are actually well equipped for it in a strictly military sense (and plenty of fluff suggests they would be poorly equipped for it in a strictly military sense). To the extent that is true, I for one am perfectly willing to believe it not an oversight on the part of the fluff writers but yet another example of the Imperium filling a round hole with a square peg.

** Drop pods and drop ships may not be part of their armory, but it seems clear that they do cross-train with the Navy quite a bit. It is apparently not uncommon for seraphim to deep strike, which they could only do from Navy gunships or dropships. We have the White Dwarf example of the drop pod-based Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which would only be possible for an inquisitor to call up ad hoc if drop pod insertion was already a part of Sororitas training. And we have the example in Faith and Fire of an entire convent, armored vehicles and all, deploying into the thick of battle via Navy dropship, and on the sands of a beach no less.


I don't really see it. The Sisters are not equivalent to a USMC force, either earlier traditional marine forces ro the more modern variant.

Seraphim might deep strike commonly, but that only makes them the UMSC equivalent within the Sisterhood. While the Sisterhood does strike via dropships, so does the Guard, it's a necessity of futuristic combat, where you travel between worlds, not a specific feature of the Sisterhood. The true insertion based army are the Stormtroopers and the Marines, and THEY are true special forces units or UMSC equivalents.

As I have been saying, they are Crusaders and Holy Warriors, not really equivalent to anything a modern army has today. You attempting to assign them to an equivalent position in modern armies is the true square peg here IMO.


Furthermore, when speaking of a new codex, it doesn't HAVE to be the exact same as it always was. The point being, I would prefer that the Sisters do not become special ops forces because that contradicts with their concept, that being the crusaders/the holy warriors/the Jean d'Arcs, an army of warrior priestesses if you will.

Actually, I'd agree with Nab here, to a reasonable extend of course. While Marines are the foremost experts on large scale amphibious assaults in the world, iirc the last major amphibious assault on enemy territory in history took place during the Korean war.

Nowadays, the Marines act very similarly to what I see sisters as doing. Marines are the tip of the spear, elite mechanized infantry intended to engage the enemy aggressively and punch through their positions, similar to what I would imagine the Sister's mindset would be offensively.

The Marines also are almost entirely focused on ground combat. Marine Corps aircraft missions are primarially based around close air support and combined arms tactics. Let the Air Force deal with enemy fighters. Same thing with the Sisters. It seems to me that the Sisters themselves follow similar principles, lacking equipment for certain types of warfare that is outside the scope of their overall mission.

Additionally, Marines are entrusted with guarding many of the US's important territories. Embassies are guarded by the Marines. Marines often guard the president and other political figures (though the Secret Service does that, too). When the president flies in a helicopter, it's a Marine Corps helicopter using the call sign Marine One.

I'd say that calling the Guard the army, the Sisters the Marines and the Space Marines Delta Force would be an appropriate comparison, in terms of the relative positions they control.

[Duke]

Im going to have to throw my lot in with Nab on this one. Sisters are more like USMC than than the US Army... The Astartes are obviously Elite special forces like SEALS and DELTA.

And there have been fighting forces throughout history that mimick the structure of the Sororitas... Where do you think GW gets their material? History! It may be arguable if they are more Templars of the crusades or the Swiss Guard of the Catholic church or any other 'holy army,'

Duke

[Melissia]

Duke: The latter part was my point, those are the armies that they ARE like. The ones you listed aren't really present in modern times, though. The Templars and Crusaders moreso, really, the Swiss Guard doesn't actually go out and fight wars anymore (I'm assuming they have done so in the past though).

The Templar especially. They were amongst the most skilled militarily of all of the crusading organizations, but they also were present in non-military matters, being some of the foremost developers of the study of finances, fortification building, and so on. The fact that, before the Age of Apostasy, the Ecclesiarchy's army was called the Frateris Templar certainly lends credence to this comparison as well.

[Melissia]

I don't really disagree-- the Sisters DO have a distinct style of fighting-- I just don't like the comparison between more modern military forces and the Sisterhood, I'd rather compare them to crusades era forces.

If they had bikers, it'd be even more appropriate, with the bikers being their cavalry :P

[Nabterayl]

No disagreement about that, Mel. My point was that the Orders Militant fight in a distinctive enough way relative to the Guard and Astartes that I think they deserve a signature vehicle type. I'd be fine if the actual vehicle was based on the Rhino chassis, so long as it's not yet another tank destroyer or light IFV.

[Melissia]

they aren't cavalry
Not in the traditional sense, no. But Mechanized Sisters of Battle could be considered a form of cavalry in the Dragoons style.


it's unclear how often they're accompanied into battle by poor quality light infantry
The Frateris Militia commonly accompanies them when they participate in Wars of Faith.

[Nabterayl]

Fair enough. I certainly see the "female templar" aesthetic. I compare them to marines militarily because comparing them to crusaders, in a tactical sense, screws with my head - they aren't cavalry, it's unclear how often they're accompanied into battle by poor quality light infantry, they seem to make pretty regular use of close fire support, etc. But I think we're talking about the same thing. Just different analogies that seem natural to each of us.

[Pyro-enthusiast]

- Leman Russ Vengeance
-- The most controversial addition, many people objecting to the use of the Russ chassis.
-- Chosen to help differentiate between the Marines and Sisters and because the Russ is a reliable chassis.
-- "Vengeance Cannon" R72" S8 AP1 Ordinance 1 Small Blast, applies Melta on direct hits.
-- More expensive than many Leman Russ variants, but is BS4.
-- Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Multi-Meltas as sponsons or frontal mounts.
-- NOT in squadrons.



A 72" range S8 AP1 Blast weapon that rolls 3d6 and takes the highest on AP at BS4? That costs less than a BS 3 IG variant Russ ("More expensive than "many" Leman Russ variants", not all.)? How is this not broken as hell and what about it screams "SoB" other than the name? Seems like wishful thinking fangirlism to me, honestly.

[Melissia]

A 72" range S8 AP1 Blast weapon that rolls 3d6 and takes the highest on AP at BS4? That costs less than a BS 3 IG variant Russ ("More expensive than "many" Leman Russ variants", not all.)? How is this not broken as hell and what about it screams "SoB" other than the name? Seems like wishful thinking fangirlism to me, honestly.

Try going and reading the actual statline rather than *****ing about a basic summary. Furthermore, Guard vehicles are actually more expensive than they would be in non-Guard armies, because the Guard have very cheap infantry, heavy weapons, and artillery. Do you really think the Predator is priced correctly for what it does? Of course it isn't. Even the lascannon one is actually kinda underpriced, because Marines pay more expensively for other parts of their armies. As for the actual price of the LRV, only the Punisher and Eradicator, both of which are very close to 200 points, are equal to more more expensive than the Vengeance. And furthermore, I said that the LRV gets 2d6 penetration on a direct hit on the scatter dice, and I meant ONLY on a direct hit on the scatter dice. That's 1/3rd of the time if I'm not mistaken (and, holding my scatter dice right now, I appear to not be mistaken).

And if you don't think a very customizable tank (read: practically a mobile shrine) with three heavy flamers and a larger version of the melta cannon doesn't fit the Sisters, then maybe you need to actually pay attention to them.


If you want to continue this argument, take it to the homebrew section of this forum. I only gave that list because someone asked for an example of how I might do a Sisters and Ecclesiarchy army list and this argument is far too off topic.

[Pyro-enthusiast]

I don't have my rulebook in front of me at the moment (at work, unfortunately) but if memory serves ordanance is +1d6, take the highest. Melta, obviously, is roll 2d6 for armor pen. Therefore your Ordanance/Melta on direct hit is a Str 8 3d6 take the highest. Throw in the 72inch range and it's kind of crazy.

[Melissia]

[edit: Moving this to my homebrew thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3121)...]
[edit 2: As soon as the forum stops making me wait because fo that stupid server bug where it always says you have thirty seconds to wait between posts even if you wait five minutes...]

[DarkLink]

I don't have my rulebook in front of me at the moment (at work, unfortunately) but if memory serves ordanance is +1d6, take the highest. Melta, obviously, is roll 2d6 for armor pen. Therefore your Ordanance/Melta on direct hit is a Str 8 3d6 take the highest. Throw in the 72inch range and it's kind of crazy.

Wrong, actually. Combined ordinance/melta causes you to roll 2d6 twice, and pick the highest. Though I do agree that a 72" melta weapon is a little questionable...

[Faultie]

Wrong, actually. Combined ordinance/melta causes you to roll 2d6 twice, and pick the highest. Though I do agree that a 72" melta weapon is a little questionable...
I'm not disbelieving, but where is that stated?

[Melissia]

Technically I think Melta Torpedos do, but nobody uses them.

[Nabterayl]

Pretty sure it's not stated anywhere. There aren't any weapons in the game that are both ordnance and roll 2d6 for armor penetration, so I doubt it's ever come up.

[DarkLink]

I'm not disbelieving, but where is that stated?

Actually, I don't recall off the top of my head. But basically, the logic is that ordinance grants you two rolls, pick the highest. For a melta weapon, one roll is on 2d6. Thus, 2x 2d6, pick the highest.

[Nabterayl]

Why, so they are. I'd never noticed that.

[Strangleweb]

Pretty sure it's not stated anywhere. There aren't any weapons in the game that are both ordnance and roll 2d6 for armor penetration, so I doubt it's ever come up.

From memory, I think it applies to Gargantuan Creatures in Apocolypse too... they are Monsterous Creatures so roll 2D6+S for armour penetration, but then they do Ordnance Level damage, so roll twice and pick the highest. Might be wrong though?!?!

[DarkLink]

From memory, I think it applies to Gargantuan Creatures in Apocolypse too... they are Monsterous Creatures so roll 2D6+S for armour penetration, but then they do Ordnance Level damage, so roll twice and pick the highest. Might be wrong though?!?!

That's it. I think that's where I heard it.

[MadCowCrazy]

I wrote an email to GW today and received this answer



We have removed a number of the Sisters of Battle models as there will
be a new Iquisitorial book coming out at some point in the future and we
need make sure that we remove some items well in advance in order to
satisfy our customers who won't want to buy existing models if new one's
are then brought out.

I hope this helps.

[Madness]

At this point, wishes aside, if I had to bet, it'd be on a single all-encompassing inquisition book.

[Aegis]

At this point, wishes aside, if I had to bet, it'd be on a single all-encompassing inquisition book.

That is the indication I have been getting from some of the GW folks I have spoken to as well. Hopefully, they do not bollocks it up, and give us a myriad of half-assed armies in one book, and actually spend the time to do them properly, giving them the attention they deserve.

On a side note, gives me hope that the numerous Inquisitors I have made could still be used.

[DarkLink]

Well, the indications seem to point to a combined Inquisition codex (WH/DH, with the Alien Hunterss added in), with separate Sisters and Grey Knights. The confusion is that lots of people have been saying combined inquisition, referring to WH/DH only, not, for example, including Sisters. Then people assumed that Sisters would be in the combined codex, which contradicted other rumors of a stand-alone Sisters codex.

So far, I think the rumors point to a Sisters codex, a Grey Knight codex, and a DH/WH/AH combined codex. Still time for that to change, though, so we can't be certain.

[Kahoolin]

I don't mean to be negative or anything, but do Grey Knights really need an entire codex? Could their background even sustain one? Same with the Inquisition, both of those factions are not really battlefield military forces, they are more like paramilitary or in the case of Grey Knights, exterminators that you call in for a specific job.

I love the Inquisition, don't get me wrong, but I think they would fit better in a combined codex with Assassins, GKs and Deathwatch.

Sisters on the other hand ARE a proper military force who could easily sustain a codex of their own in terms of background and existing models.

[DarkLink]

I don't mean to be negative or anything, but do Grey Knights really need an entire codex?

Do Space Marines need their own codex? Do Dark Eldar need their own codex? No one really needs anything, but it makes GW money, so they do it. I think the better question is why not expand the currently existing stuff?



Could their background even sustain one?

Currently, their background is hardly flushed out. We only have a very vague idea of the basics of their training, organization, abilities and such. What little is currently there can't support a full codex, sure. But there is TONS of room for expansion.

Additionally, one of the rumors relating to this stuff had the poster mentioning they'd seen a bunch of new concept art and fluff written up on the Grey Knights. He said that it was more than enough for a full codex.



Same with the Inquisition, both of those factions are not really battlefield military forces, they are more like paramilitary or in the case of Grey Knights, exterminators that you call in for a specific job.

I personally agree that the Inquisition doesn't really feel right in 40k, personally. They're not military. They're like FBI detectives, hunting down stuff. When they need fighting done, they requisition actual military forces, like the Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, etc.

However, as I just mentioned, the Grey Knights are a full on military force. And there's a few whole pages in the DH codex explaining why Grey Knights would fight stuff other than only Chaos, for various reasons, so I've never felt the "but Grey Knights only fight Chaos" argument holds much water. The Grey Knights exist to destroy the threat of Chaos to mankind. If that means killing a Tau strikeforce in order to destroy the ancient Chaos artifact they just found, so be it. Poor, poor Tau.



Sisters on the other hand ARE a proper military force who could easily sustain a codex of their own in terms of background and existing models.

For all intents and purposes, CWH is Codex: Sisters of Battle, plus some Inquisition. And they did used to be all on their own. GW is just returning them to their original place, right where they were before they got shoved into an Inquisition codex.

[Atrotos]

I wrote an email to GW today and received this answer

Wait a minute... this suggests that the Sisters of Battle will be in the Inquisitorial codex. Re: removal of SoB models bc of incoming Inquisitorial codex.

Who's going to tell Melissia? I call 'not it'.

[Kahoolin]

I personally agree that the Inquisition doesn't really feel right in 40k, personally. They're not military. They're like FBI detectives, hunting down stuff. When they need fighting done, they requisition actual military forces, like the Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, etc.I'm not saying the Inquisition doesn't feel right in 40k. I'm an inquisition player, I like to include Inquisitors with my guard, and I dearly hope that the Inquisition is still a viable force in the future. I just think they are better suited as an add-on force to existing Imperial armies, like the old "Heroes of the Imperium" book. They don't need a whole codex unless it is going to be combined with other things.


However, as I just mentioned, the Grey Knights are a full on military force.Well, I've never agreed with that. I always felt as though Grey Knights were meant to be these amazing paladins that beamed down unexpectedly when Daemons started showing up and vanished without a trace as soon as the battle was over, so why would they need anything more than a couple of codex entries?

You're bringing me round though. The galaxy is a big place and the scale of 40k is huge, so I suppose on that level I can see ranks of Grey Knights supported by vehicles, standing firm in the face of a planet-load of Daemons. I still don't see why a whole army of Grey Knights would ever face an army of anything but Chaos though, not unless there was some huge mix-up. Why wouldn't they just call in some guard or Astartes to deal with the Tau? In that respect I don't see them as being any different from Inquisitors.

I get your point though. It's just personal preference, I like Inquisitors so I want them in 40k, you like Grey Knights so you want them in 40k. I'm not going to tell you how to have fun :)




For all intents and purposes, CWH is Codex: Sisters of Battle, plus some Inquisition. And they did used to be all on their own. GW is just returning them to their original place, right where they were before they got shoved into an Inquisition codex.I certainly hope so.