PDA

View Full Version : "New" Tyranids how to play them/what to take



gcsmith
01-14-2010, 09:52 AM
Mawlocs cus wen u deploy on table the opponent gets ready to LC them but then u burrow and auto come up turn 2 makes the opponant cry as their LC die :P

Endrekshar
01-14-2010, 09:52 AM
I was wondering some of the view points on this such as


Must have units.

The underdog units that will blow people out of the water with how unexpected they are.


I think that alot of people will say that with the inclusion of the "Drop" Spores that you should run a brood of 3 Zoanthropes, for tank hunting.

Along with things like Hive Guard and there cool Spike Gun.

But what about things like Pyrovores, Venom Thropes, and Mawlocks would you use them and if so in what way?

very interested in this please post your OPINION

P.S Please don't mathhammer this because i believe that if you approach the game in this way you are just going to look at Wins/Draws/Loses as opposed to what would be fun to play in the army (I do understand the need for things like GTs and 'Ard Boyz Tournaments but that is no what this topic is about)

Chumbalaya
01-14-2010, 10:26 AM
P.S Please don't mathhammer this because i believe that if you approach the game in this way you are just going to look at Wins/Draws/Loses as opposed to what would be fun to play in the army (I do understand the need for things like GTs and 'Ard Boyz Tournaments but that is no what this topic is about)

Somebody has no idea what mathhammer is, lolz.

Anyhoo, you'll be hard pressed to find truly terrible units in the bug book beyond Rippers (even flying rippers are ok).

Standouts to me are the Tervigon (spawns more gaunts, scoring 6 wound MC, gives FNP to a unit, gaunts get counter attack, furious charge and poison just by sitting next to him), Zoanthropes (S10 AP1 lance with BS4, nuff said), Hive Guard (2 krak missiles apiece at BS4 that don't need LoS on a cheap, tough platform), Alpha Warrior (mini Hive Tyrant MC), Tyrannofex (6W, 2+ save gun beast), and of course Trygons/Mawlocs.

MVBrandt
01-14-2010, 11:00 AM
I've kinda done this before, but now that dex is official and after a fair amount of playtesting the various builds and units out there ...

HQ
Swarmlord - Ridiculously expensive, requires hive guard to get him anywhere safely, and can be avoided by numerous armies. If not avoided, will punk whatever he hits, with a lot of reliability. Not worth the abusively huge # of points to field him and his ideal unit.

Hive Tyrant - Has some uses, especially his army buffers. Very, very expensive. Will take a lot of adjusting for old nid players to feel comfortable fielding a 3+ save monster for that much. 2+ armor upgrade and wings upgrades are hilariously overpriced.

Tyrant Guard - Identical but with a 33% points increase. Go figure. I didn't think they were undeprriced previously, so I don't see how this was appropriate. Still probably mandatory for walking Tyrants.

Tervigon - All star of the dex. Spawns gaunts, can be taken as a troop, 6 wounds, can cast FNP on units, makes gaunts super nasty and able to deal with basically anything not a vehicle (S4 I5 poisoned attacks? tyvm) if you play him correctly. Will be in most competitive lists in number of at least 2.

Tyranid Prime (what everyone is calling an Alpha Warrior) - Affordable enough to be useful as hidden synapse, and a nasty threat to various units that get close. For 110 points you can have a guy who causes ID on a failed 3d6 ld test, throws 5 attacks on the charge at S6, and can have them be rending vs. vehicles. Will see him hidden in hive guard units, larger gaunt units, and warrior units (to whom he gives his WS and BS of 6/4).

Parasite of Mortrex - Funny, interesting. Like the Prime, is a hidden synapse character. Will probably be fielded in larger gargoyle squads, which will enable him to avoid power fists. Intriguing, and will be funny when you turn things into rippers.

Elites
Hive Guard - Opinions here vary wildly. My $.02 is that the Hive Guard is the superlative choice over the Zoanthrope for anti-tank, for a couple of reasons that I'll delineate in a sec. Each one for less than a zoanthrope is immune to ID (except special abilities), and becomes super durable with Tervigons nearby. They fire 2 s8 shots that ignore cover unless you're in it SMS style (and that's HUGE) each. Superlatively lethal against non-AV14. A squad of 3 has a 2/3 chance to inflict a glancing hit against AV14 also ... better odds than the old Venom Cannon fex had ... which isn't great, but is worth noting.

Zoanthrope - S10 AP1 Lance with 18" range on a 3+ save (invul) 2 wound T4 platform for more points than a hive guard and no close combat ability whatsoever beyond tarpitting. Fragile to an extreme degree. Consider that the small arms required to kill a marine is minimal ... and a zoanthrope is just a 2 wound marine vs. any kind of small arms. Also consider that any unlucky failed save vs. s8 and higher is a dead zoanthrope. Like every other unit in the army, can be made tougher with the synergy of Tervigons.

Zoanthrope vs. Hive Guard - Hive Guard are more durable overall, better in combat if they HAVE to fight (except for things neither of them should be fighting anyway), have better range, ignore cover in many cases, have more shots per unit in case of bad rolls, and are statistically similar or superior against transport AV (10-12). Zoanthropes are better vs. Land Raiders. Dat's basically it. With the proliferation of monsters in most armies, and the ability in emergencies to chuck numerous batches of 6+2d6 attacks at them, I don't think you'll find nid players in the fullness of time fielding Zoans over Hive Guard. Additionally, Hive Guard remove the need to field Death Leaper as an anti-psychic-hood addition.

Lictors - Improved stats (extra wound), teleport homers and retain +1 to reserves. Cannot assault on the turn they arrive means that like Marbo they are usually going to die to some incidental close range fire if you want them close to your opponent. Remember, this isn't a "win" where things aren't shooting at your main group ... if you're close to your opponent, he's probably shooting things at them that otherwise would just not be shooting, i.e. the meltaguns from chimera embarked veterans. Meanwhile, with only a 2 shot s6 ap- weapon (rending, granted) in the flesh hooks, you're not going to exactly pop transports all over the place when they arrive. Generally noncompetitive with hive guard, zoanthropes, death leaper.

Death Leaper - Cool unit, needs his own thread to discuss merit in tourney lists. Wish he could be an HQ or Fast Attack. I don't believe in dedicating points to psy defense either ... jotww can be mitigated otherwise, seer councils can be mobbed and bludgeoned by free gaunt squads w/ poisoned attacks and FNP, and lol@ psyker battle squads if you're nids (not that the leaper helps vs. them anyway).

Venomthrope - Let's see. A 2 wound model w/ a 5+ save that provides ridiculously huge benefits to all the Tyranid nearby and is neither an IC, nor small enough to hide. Really? Utter crap. You'd have to be on crack.

Doom of Malan'tai - Cool if you are in a local metagame area where mech isn't king. Put him in a spore pod and drop him in the middle of a foot army, and watch the shenanigans unfold as the turn he arrives every unit w/ a model w/in 6" takes a ld test on 3d6 and starts losing models. Then you have a 10 wound bug. Too bad an unlucky 1 or 2 on a meltagun save = dead, no matter how many wounds he's got. Cool, but generally worthless in the greater scheme.

Pyrovore - This has to be the most confusing, weird, stupid selection ever made. 2 wounds. WS3. 1 attack. I 1. Explodes in a fashion that is most harmful to gretchin and gaunts, of all things out there. Only explodes if killed by instant death anyway. Has a heavy flamer, that he can't project. Is slow (walking), unless you put him in a drop pod (and then you're asking for him to be free VP even sooner). IGNORES ARMOR SAVES ... but seriously, with his one attack ... This guy is total ***. There are no redeeming qualities, stop trying to figure them out.

Ymgarl Genestealers - Cool, risky deployment style. Certainly possess the ability to throw 3 s5 rending attacks each against a vehicle or w/e on the charge, the turn they arrive. At 23 points, though ... they are mighty pricey.

Troops
Warriors - These remind me of what Crisis Suits would be if they were close in support / assault units and could be given feel no pain. That is to say, expensive models with a lot of potential for hitting something really hard at either range (18-24" depending on weaponry) or in close, and are really durable vs. small arms, but that fold like a deck of cards when a vendetta or a few missiles start coming their way. Cool unit, useful if you take maybe one with a tyranid prime to suck some ID wounds. Please consider how durable crisis suits with no range would be, though. Also, every power fist hit you take in close combat is going to count for 3 combat res against you, and they're still not very good at killing dreadnaughts and the like.

Genestealers - Lost most of their upgrade options w/out losing their base stats, and got 2 points cheaper. Cool. I don't like genestealers, or how they played, but in general if you liked them before you'll probably still like them or like them more.

Landing Spore - Cool, neat, fluffy, super fragile. Will find use in some armies.

Termagants - Loss of fleet sucks big floppy donkey dick. Still, it's nice to get them for only 5 points now. With a tervigon nearby these are nasty critters, especially since they're all either 5 points or free.

Hormagaunt - Not all that good. Really. Sorry. They were overpriced mediocrity in the last dex. Now they are more appropriately priced mediocrity. You actually lost effectiveness though, in the WS department especially, and lost your fast charge. So, one could argue that they are STILL overpriced. They certainly are not the match of an Ork, but they cost the same. They should be 4 points with what they have now. They're just fast extra attack gaunts who can't benefit from tervigons, are just as fragile, and can't shoot.

Rippers - lol.

Fast Attack
Winged Warriors - Winged warriors with deathspitters were a hallmark of my last army. They're called Shrikes or something now and deathspitters are just ap5 heavy bolters now. I don't think these will be taken often.

Ravener - An extra wound did not remove the glaring flaw of raveners, which was their obscene fragility for cost, esp. in comparison to warriors for purpose. This is still the problem. Furthermore, now they are ID bait. Back in 4th edition, Raveners were superlative b/c although pricey and fragile, they hunkered behind the lines and provided this awesome threat that could take out dreadnaughts or land raiders even ... and so were scary to anything. It was the pinnacle of Tyranid OOGA BOOGA! Now? They're total bleh. They basically can't tackle anything heavy, with the nerfs to rending and their still-fragile demeanour. As a result, they do what everything else in the Tyranid army already does - kill basic infantry. Since you don't need that, you don't need raveners.

Flying Rippers - lol^2

Gargoyles - More appealing now that they are properly costed, but like Hormagaunts you're left feeling like they're still overpriced, since the S4 I hit you on 4+ hit to rear armor of fast moving vehicles is gone. That's what they were freaking useful for ... and now that it's gone wtf is the point? They're just a point more expensive faster but still as fragile gaunts. They also lost their ability to operate outside of synapse, dropping to Ld6. This means those gargs of yours are more likely to run for cover and shoot somethign nearby than they are to actually do what you want, if they're off on some kind of "kill that th ing that's far away from us" mission. But really, again, just a more expensive way of doing what your tervigon-buffed gaunts are already doing - killing basic infantry.

Harpy - This one gets me to laugh a lot. Some people like the ability to field a monster that flies to get side armor shots with a s9 ap4 -1to damage roll twin-linked bs 3 blast weapon. Some people like me go "well, that doesn't kill transports at all reliably, so it doesn't do the one thing Tyranid really need to do." Most people SHOULD look at them and go "super fragile." Unfortunately, internet tough guys all around go "WELL DERE AREN'T DAT MANY S10 WEPINZ DAT KEN SHOOT UM." The problem is not that S10 weapons one shot them. Sure they do, and that sucks for the overpriced Harpy. The problem is that 4 space marine heavy bolters statistically kill them. T5 4+ save is not durable, vs. anything. They don't hit very hard either. It's basically a fragile monster whose points cost is based around the fact that it was given close combat tricks and ranged tricks and made way too hyper versatile, plus apparently Cruddace thinks wings on a non-eternal, non-invul monster SHOULD cost 60 points. WTF ever.

Spore Mine Cluster - pre-game shenanigans will abound with these, and they're cool for that.

Heavy Support
Carnifex - If all you want is the ability to run up and punk a fast moving land raider, the basic Fex is your answer, with 5 S9 attacks that re-roll to hit vs. it. He's outclassed at most other roles.

Old One Eye - LOLOLOL.

Biovore - Worse than 4th edition biovores.

Trygon / Trygon Prime - Cool, hitty, their tunnel has to be a meaningful portion of their points cost and it's total crap. Fleet monsters are good for hiding in your meatball and reaching out and touching somebody on demand. Re-rolling to hit at S6 (possible 7 if you take glands) vs. vehicles with 7 attacks on the charge is pretty cool too.

Mawloc - The Tyranid equivalent of the middle finger. I actually see the Mawloc's best use being synergistic with the Tervigon gaunt farm / hive guard type list, as the way to reach out and contest objectives late game. Imagine going 2nd in draw mission, and your opponent puts his objective as far from your deployment as humanly possible. He castles around it in realization of your slow speed and figures he autocontests. Well, on Turn 4 you submerge one of 2 mawlocs. On turn 5 you submerge the other. Now you autowin basically unless it goes to Turn 7, at which point even your hyperslow nid army is there. Avoid the urge to use the S6 ap2 blast early ... it scatters the full 2d6 and can scatter off table or into impassable to the mishap of your mawloc (they don't have the same protection Trygons do). 6 wounds won't save you if you burn it early and wind up in the middle of a pile of meltaguns that have nothing better to shoot at yet. Use wisely.

Tyrannofex - At an absurdly high price for a BS3 2-shot S10 weapon, will still be taken by a lot of people and moved w/ the horde just to offer a) another big monster nearby, and c) the opportunity value of s10 shots that can pen. I'm fuggin' renaming mine though. I mean, Tyrannofex? Come the fawk on.

Deej
01-14-2010, 11:34 AM
From MVBrandt's post, it seems everything is crap except Hive Guard and Tervigons.

Drakkan Vael
01-14-2010, 11:51 AM
From MVBrandt's post, it seems everything is crap except Hive Guard and Tervigons.

Luckily that ist not the case.

The comparison of Hive Guard against Zoanthropes lacks a lot of additional aspects. Zoas can be dropped in a Spore, Hive Guard cannot. The Guards armor save is even worse than the inv save of the Zoas. The Zoas are not only better against AV 14 but against allmost all armored Vehicles (with the exception of Serpents).
The Zoas on the other hand suffer from extensive psychic defense. Oh, and by the way, they are pretty good at killing Marines and other stuff with AS 3+.

Biovores are not exactly worse. S4 AP4 large blast. You'll find allways some place to hide them behind. They are cheap, reliable horde killer. Shoot at some Firewarriors, Imps or Orks and watch them die. I consider them better then before.

Tyrannofex ist expensive but with two 48" Str 10 shots one of the long-range-weapons in the tyranid army that can destroy a landraider from afar.

The new 'nids play differently. than the old ones (I play them since 2nd ed.), you have to adjust your style of play as well. Synergy, units working in concert with each other is key.
Having an overall strategy, for example disrupting your enemy (Trygon, Mawloc, Sporemine clusters, Spore pods, outflanking) or playing a steamroller (MC spawn in a big block while using the abilities of Tervigons, Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard) is far more important than individual units.

Hive Guard is great against mech. But what do you do with them against horde?

Please don't flame my english as I am German. I'm playtesting the 'nids since about before Christmas when the german codex leaked. And I do like them.

Found even uses for Hormagaunts: Pod them with two Alpha Warriors (in german he is an Alpha). Detach them in the round after the drop and watch them slaughter three separate units, as one lone Alpha is enough to slaughter a combat squad of Marines, even Termis at that (even if it's a close call). 15 Hormagaunts with toxin do that as well.

Really, the codex is quite balanced and offers a wider variety of playstyles than ever before.

Madjob
01-14-2010, 12:26 PM
Not to be redundant (I've posted this in one of the rumor threads) but I thought I'd point out that with the way the Tyrant Guard rules work now, they protect the Tyrant from precisely jack squat. He can be singled out in shooting, because he's still a Monstrous Creature attached to a non-MC unit as an Independent Character, and he can be singled out in CC because he's an Independent Character when joined to them.

Add that to their increased cost and lowered stats, and we've got another big question mark entry for this codex. So many baffling oversights in this codex makes it hard for me to remain optimistic about it. Lictors only practically provide their reserves bonus for a single turn and then becoming redundant (can take effect turn 3 at the earliest, so your reserves come in on a 2+ that turn and then a 2+ on turn 4 like they would have anyways). Wording on the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep possibly prevents it from functioning like it was intended. I'm on the side of RAI here on that last one but I'll put money on people making such a huge contention over this that we won't settle on a straight answer until a FAQ/Errata. Regardless Cruddace should have been more careful when writing an entry that makes exceptions to existing rules in the BRB.

Mizzrym
01-14-2010, 01:00 PM
my thoughts are harpies=win, TL HVcannon yes plz, tervigon A++++, I also think flying rippers with spinefists could be a sleeper hit, only bs 2, but 4 shots twin linked each base could be useful, throw the parasite into the unit for a good fun time. also tyrannofex's at 1850 pt games could be feasible

MVBrandt
01-14-2010, 02:43 PM
From MVBrandt's post, it seems everything is crap except Hive Guard and Tervigons.

I gather you did not read my post, then.


re: Drakkan ...


Luckily that ist not the case.
Truth.


The comparison of Hive Guard against Zoanthropes lacks a lot of additional aspects. Zoas can be dropped in a Spore, Hive Guard cannot. The Guards armor save is even worse than the inv save of the Zoas. The Zoas are not only better against AV 14 but against allmost all armored Vehicles (with the exception of Serpents).
The Zoas on the other hand suffer from extensive psychic defense. Oh, and by the way, they are pretty good at killing Marines and other stuff with AS 3+.

First off, drop podding zoanthropes is cool and effective statistically at ganking say a land raider, but your zoans die thereafter. They do not survive sustained small arms fire at all. Consider that 180 points and 3 zoanthropes will gain you the same resilience against small arms as 6 marines. In other words, they are not durable. SO, does your local metagame contain only a few heavy tanks and that's it, such that you will be effective drop podding a couple squads of zoans for the one shot wonder and then moving on with life? Great! If that's NOT the case, and it's more like near me, where every single living thing is in a transport and there are 10+ of them in every army ... you may find less real use for zoans.

Remember that Hive Guard are by nature always going to be in cover ... they don't require LOS, and they have a decent enough range to move along w/ a gaunt screen or other things. As a result, that 4+ is a cover save or an armor save, and with Tervs (like with everything else) they'll be FNP as well. While Zoans are better against all armored vehicle per shot, remember that they have 1 shot which does not ignore los, has 6" less range and does not ignore many cover saves. On an open field, within range, the Zoan is a better shot. I wouldn't dispute this, nor would I say zoans are bad - they are quite good.


Biovores are not exactly worse. S4 AP4 large blast. You'll find allways some place to hide them behind. They are cheap, reliable horde killer. Shoot at some Firewarriors, Imps or Orks and watch them die. I consider them better then before.
Main important note is that people did not take the Biovore in the past b/c it competed with very good monsters, and performed a task the tyranid already did very well - killing infantry. Also, the biovore was always and still is super fragile. Basically, it's the same, with a large blast but no variety of spore attack. The large blast is cool, but they are actually pricier I believe in points, just as fragile, and just as unnecessary, plus they still compete with some really nice monsters (note I am saying the monsters are really nice, and neither are hive guard or tervigons).


Tyrannofex ist expensive but with two 48" Str 10 shots one of the long-range-weapons in the tyranid army that can destroy a landraider from afar.
Super absurdly expensive for what he does, but as I mentioned will still be taken (including by me probably) for the fact that he can at least threaten higher AV at range. I think "bad" nid players will keep him way back, though ... Nid armies should still operate interdependently, so big bunches of gaunts or bad-in-combat-but-still-big monsters can be chucked at close in threats.


The new 'nids play differently. than the old ones (I play them since 2nd ed.), you have to adjust your style of play as well. Synergy, units working in concert with each other is key.
Having an overall strategy, for example disrupting your enemy (Trygon, Mawloc, Sporemine clusters, Spore pods, outflanking) or playing a steamroller (MC spawn in a big block while using the abilities of Tervigons, Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard) is far more important than individual units.
I think the new Nids don't play all that differently in test. They CAN in the sense that they have a lot of new deep strike / pop-up tricks, but dat's about it. Tyranid played at their highest level were always synergistic, and they still are, but more so. The dex has a lot of badly costed units, several pointless/stupid units, and a few obvious awesome-o units, while the rest are all good, and even some of the badly costed ones are still excellent and will be taken. Also, more than ever, Tyranid performance will be amplified dramatically by player performance.


Hive Guard is great against mech. But what do you do with them against horde?
Hive Guard aren't a horde killer. In the current top level game, mech is king. You take Hive Guard b/c you anticipate going up against armies full of transports, whether those are trukks, rhinos, or chimeras, or w/ever. Anything with troops hiding inside in the AV10-12 range. Keep in mind that while the Tyranid have a TON of units that can readily gank horde, even things as simple as the Tervigon+Termagant combo can do this reliably. The important note is not that Tervigons/gaunts are the only way to go, but that the codex is so absurdly robust in the anti-infantry department that the simplest of combos can basically take on anything in the infantry-only department. The point is to imply then that zoanthropes/hive guard/tyrannofexes are important units in how you utilize them b/c they perform the one task the army doesn't across ALL its units already - turning a mech army into an infantry army over the course of a 5-7 turn game (by killing its mech). If your list can do taht reliably, your list will be able to tackle the infantry too unless you're brain dead.


Please don't flame my english as I am German. I'm playtesting the 'nids since about before Christmas when the german codex leaked. And I do like them.
Mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut ... dein Englisch ist sehr gut. re: playtesting ... ich auch



Found even uses for Hormagaunts: Pod them with two Alpha Warriors (in german he is an Alpha). Detach them in the round after the drop and watch them slaughter three separate units, as one lone Alpha is enough to slaughter a combat squad of Marines, even Termis at that (even if it's a close call). 15 Hormagaunts with toxin do that as well.




Really, the codex is quite balanced and offers a wider variety of playstyles than ever before.
This is something I can generally agree with.

There are a lot of units that compete with more obvious choices, which is frustrating compared to guard.
There are a lot of units that cost too much for what they do, but can still be fully playable and competitive.
There are at least a couple of units that are utterly pointless or absurdly overpriced.
There are several great units.

The codex as a whole, inclusive of the above, is strong and highly playable, and a lot of Nid players will enjoy it.


Tho a ps - releasing a dex with Swarmlord, Tervigon, Tyrannofex, Harpy, Doom of Malan'tai, Parasite of Mortrex, etc. and having no models for them is fuggin' weak.

Chumbalaya
01-14-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm still a big fan of Zoeys MVB, though I can see where you're coming from on them. I throw in the Alpha Warrior to give them extra wounds and a little surprise if somebody feels like getting too close. They dish out the Warp Lance or 3 small blasts plus his deathspitter to go after light mech/hordes. Since the rest of my army is 2 Harpies, a Tyrannofex and the gaunt farm I need a good way to take on armor and infantry at range, and Zoes fit nicely.

I like them both really, it just depends on what you need. Tyranid armies, gaunt farms in particular, need to stop Land Raiders before they can drive through the screen and dump TH/SS termies on your important units. Tyrannofexes have a shot, but Zoeys are easily the most consistent.

Pretty much everything else I'd agree with.

MVBrandt
01-14-2010, 04:09 PM
I can understand why you'd be a fan of Zoeys, but trust me that with play you'll find they are kinda crap in the reliability and durability department. Heck, even St@lek is starting to field them over Zoeys in all of his lists, and that's after taking me to task for daring to suggest HG's were more reliable in practice. /whistle

Also, taking a subpar unit in all senses just hoping you don't run up against a multi-LR list that you can manage if you have to anyway ... is unwise. You'll notice that you don't have to invent that one achilles heel list when touting the HG ... i.e. for the Zoeys they are only better in one scenario, and it keeps getting harped on anywhere you look. The HG are better everywhere else and you still have 6+ monsters and multiple S10 shots by the time they get there ... so it's not like you're sitting totally screwed by the multi-raider lists ... AT ALL. You're just not quite as omgwtfpotent vs. them as you are vs. everything else. It's not even a harp on Hive Guard ... i.e. they don't just make the list omgwtfpwn everything. They're just a valuable/reliable component that is MORE valuable/reliable, esp. for their purpose, than zoeys. Zoeys are still cool/great/interesting/intriguging/awesome/etc.

Drakkan Vael
01-14-2010, 04:25 PM
It is always easy to imangine how Zoas are worse than Hive Guard or Hive Guard as more durable as Zoas.
In most of the games I played until now, the HG died long before the Zoas, as my opponents quickly realised their potential for wreaking havoc with the transports.
Even 4+ cover save does not significantly up the survivability of HG if hit by mulitlasers, heavy bolters or shuriken cannons. They die as fast as Zoas.

I do like them both, but would not prefer one above the other.

Don't mistake me, I'm not overly satisfied with the codex. It has far too many loopholes (Mawloc, Doom of Malantai, even the size of the marker for the Trygon tunnel entrance), and far too many stupid weapon choices (I pay one point per gaunts for spinefists? Which is worse than the weapon the gaunts come with naturally? Come on...).
And many other things I'm not pleased with.

But wishing does not change even one letter. This is the codex we've got for this edition of the rules and at least some year into the 6th. So why no throw in all brainpower and start inventing uses for seemingly worthless units.

Everyone can play Space Marines, Imps or Wolves.

Ulf
01-14-2010, 06:24 PM
Although MVBrandt wrote a lot of true things in his roundup, there is one thing that I really have to object to:



[...]
Old One Eye - LOLOLOL.
[...]


A lot of the recent Tyranid-talk shares this opinion, but I don't - maybe I'm somewhat oldfashioned, but a creature with up to 16 Strength 10 MC-Attacks on the charge is awesome in my book - thats more than a 3 strong unit of "normal" fexes can dish out.

On average, he gets 4+2+1 (don't forget he has crushing claws, +d3 attacks) Attacks on the charge, with WS 3 and reroll 1s for scything talons thats around ~4 hits against most enemies (WS3-6), which grants him another 4 attacks, which sums up to 11 attacks. Give him preferred enemy via a Swarmlord if you want to make sure stuff hits the fan.

The improved regeneration is risky, as it forces the opponent to concentrate fire even more, but with careful deployment (via Trygon tunnel for example) you can maximize his chances to arrive in close combat.

Chumbalaya
01-14-2010, 10:58 PM
Old One Eye has to make it to combat, that ain't happening.

@ MVB, I have been playtesting since I got the leaked codex and still find Zoeys to be incredibly useful. HG have their place, they just don't fit in certain builds that Zoeys do. St@lek was brutal on that whole discussion as always, but it seems that it's more of that Socratic method junk, forcing people to defend their stances and whatnot. They're both awesome, that's the problem :P

Lyracian
01-15-2010, 02:39 AM
I think MVBrandt has said most of it. Like others I am not completely convinced on the Hive Guard vs Zoanthrope debate. There are some interesting ideas about using them on DakkaDakka. They do offer Synapse and Shadow in the Warp which Guard do not.

Biovores are actually cheaper. In the 4th Ed Dex you had to pay X +2Y for the Spore mines. Now you just pay X+Y and get the Spore Mines for free. Spore Mines taken as Fast Attack look like they only really work if the Tyranid player gets the first turn so they get to drift apart. Otherwise the cluster is still together and a single shot will start a chain reaction and take the rest of them out as well.

Gargoyles can still glance AV 10 with Fleshborers and also on the charge if they take Adrenal Glands. After the Tervigon/Gaunt combo I think they are the best infantry choice in the codex. With Blinding Poison they do not even need any upgrades. A large swarm should give Monsters a cover save and will be the front line (with FNP) in my army.

The Tryanofex, Carnifex and Tyrant all seem over costed. Each of these should have been about 30 points cheaper (and wings half the cost) to really be worth putting on the battlefield. They will all still be used as they do something unique. Tyranofex for long range anti-tank, Carnifex broods for kiling Land Raiders and Bioplasma, Tyrant for Psi powers and Special Abilities.

Madjob
01-15-2010, 09:46 AM
The Tryanofex, Carnifex and Tyrant all seem over costed. Each of these should have been about 30 points cheaper (and wings half the cost) to really be worth putting on the battlefield.

I don't think even that is enough for the Tyrannofex - I'd have only paid well under 200 points for its base statline/biomorphs (170-180 points perhaps). I really don't think Tyranids are so desperate to have that small of a chance of doing anything to AV14 at 48" range that you'd pay 265+ points for it.

Ferro
01-15-2010, 10:20 AM
but with careful deployment (via Trygon tunnel for example) you can maximize [Old One Eye's] chances to arrive in close combat.
Sorry sir, not possible. Trygon tunnels allow for infantry only, not MCs. Note that this excludes Raveners too, which is a contender for the dumbest damn thing in this codex.


Old One Eye has to make it to combat, that ain't happening.
Quoted for truth. --if you start with him on the board. Hold him in reserves and maybe he'll walk on turns 2-4 depending on your rolls. Then, if you're lucky enough to have bad guys wrecking your lines, O1E can mix it up. I do absolutely have a fondness for this guy, and will try to make space for him in my lists every now and then :)


I personally think that the tervigon won't be as competitive as people think, as some games it could do amazingly and produce well over 60 gaunts, and others it might produce only 5 or 6, and in tournaments most armies need something lot more reliable than the tervigon.
I think that in time you will see this sentiment proven wrong. Each Tervigon statistically produce 29 guants before rolling doubles, and the power, buffs, and awesomeness of these guys cannot be overstated.

mstingray
01-15-2010, 10:20 AM
I personally think that the tervigon won't be as competitive as people think, as some games it could do amazingly and produce well over 60 gaunts, and others it might produce only 5 or 6, and in tournaments most armies need something lot more reliable than the tervigon. Another point is that by giving every gaunt unit within 6" special rules and LD bonuses players will make sure gaunt units are right next to the tervigon so if it dies to shooting the gaunt squads are going to be all but destroyed. Although I do like the tervigon and will definately take one its not something I think you can rely on to turn the game (unless its on an objective)

Also I don't think that the tyrannofex is decent, especially with BS3, something most people seem to overlook, which means effectively you're going to hit once per turn, against land raiders I think you're better off getting up close with a trygon, or using a zoanthrope.

crazyredpraetorian
01-15-2010, 11:46 AM
Sorry sir, not possible. Trygon tunnels allow for infantry only, not MCs. Note that this excludes Raveners too, which is a contender for the dumbest damn thing in this codex.


Quoted for truth. --if you start with him on the board. Hold him in reserves and maybe he'll walk on turns 2-4 depending on your rolls. Then, if you're lucky enough to have bad guys wrecking your lines, O1E can mix it up. I do absolutely have a fondness for this guy, and will try to make space for him in my lists every now and then :)


I think that in time you will see this sentiment proven wrong. Each Tervigon statistically produce 29 guants before rolling doubles, and the power, buffs, and awesomeness of these guys cannot be overstated.

Unless it gets JoWWed on turn 1.:D

MVBrandt
01-15-2010, 12:03 PM
If it's a single RP w/ JoWW it's going to possibly kill one or two before it gets megapunked by firepower, b/c it's within 24" of the Tyranid army, or closer. If it's a bunch of RP's, then yeah you've figured out an anti-Nid build. But seriously ... not aimed at you b/c you're joking, but there's a lot of use of things like JoWW and other responses as "duh that makes all those things not a good idea." Certainly the Tyranid have some achilles heels and some good builds to use against them, but such replies are the basic equivalent of list tailoring. When someone puts out something they think is good, evaluate it on the whole scope of the game in an all comer's situation, rather than just pointing out one thing that will beat it as if that totally nullifies the point.

Again, not really aimed at you Crazy, just at that in general as it's been occurring.

gcsmith
01-15-2010, 01:12 PM
if only infantry can use it how come raveners use it in the wd battle report

Ulf
01-15-2010, 03:45 PM
Sorry sir, not possible. Trygon tunnels allow for infantry only, not MCs. Note that this excludes Raveners too, which is a contender for the dumbest damn thing in this codex.


I'm glad you pointed that out, I totally failed to notice that aspect of the rule. :(

Ferro
01-15-2010, 04:02 PM
(@MVB: you're absolutely right, but just FYI; Crazyred is a local, and I think he's just taunting me. We have a LGS tourney tomorrow. I think I know what he's planning now.) :)

crazyredpraetorian
01-15-2010, 07:09 PM
If it's a single RP w/ JoWW it's going to possibly kill one or two before it gets megapunked by firepower, b/c it's within 24" of the Tyranid army, or closer. If it's a bunch of RP's, then yeah you've figured out an anti-Nid build. But seriously ... not aimed at you b/c you're joking, but there's a lot of use of things like JoWW and other responses as "duh that makes all those things not a good idea." Certainly the Tyranid have some achilles heels and some good builds to use against them, but such replies are the basic equivalent of list tailoring. When someone puts out something they think is good, evaluate it on the whole scope of the game in an all comer's situation, rather than just pointing out one thing that will beat it as if that totally nullifies the point.

Again, not really aimed at you Crazy, just at that in general as it's been occurring.

MV, I was referring to a game last night. Ferro plays at the same FLGS. I was playing another Nid player and got off a minor alpha strike. Just a little local trash talk. :D

Codeman90
01-17-2010, 09:24 PM
Alright I gotta defend some units here or I'll feel bad about not stopping all of the SUPER COMPETETIVE TYRANID LSITS with a variety consisting of 4 different models (Hive Guard, Trygons, Tervigons and Termagants).

I've done a few playtests and I think Hormagaunts have gotten significantly better. I5 makes a HUGE difference, hitting before marines helps alot and the loss of weapon skill does hurt but poisoned attacks backed up by the Hive Tyrant/ Swarmlord baillities they can run an overconfident marnie squad into the dirt before they even get to attack back.

The Swarmlord is a great unit, I've plowed through squads like nothing and the amount of dread he causes is immense. Opponents steer clear, he's a good unit but for making an opponent re-roll successful invuls and causing Instant Death? He couldn't cost any less or he would be the cheesiest model in the game.

Tervigons are OK but I'm not that impressed. He's tough (kind of) but all it does is sit there and crap termagants all over the place. he gives them bonuses too but they have to make sure they're really close and I think thats going to be the most damaging part. I play Imperial Guard and Tyranids. My IG hell hounds will have a field day, ordnance too. how could I miss? they're all in a condensed blob.

Hive Guard also have a flaw in that they are $20 a model and nobody has any "official" ones yet. they also die fast. 2 wounds and a 4+ save with a 24" gun? they'll be dead before they get anywhere NEAR the transports. and even if they do they only have a 50% chance (against the average transport) chance of doing anything. with a 3+ invul I think the Zoanthrope has better survivability (at least they have an invul) also for getting 6" closer you get the chance to nuke any vehicle stupid enough to get near you, its an 18" Railgun!

pelmen78
01-17-2010, 10:16 PM
Codeman,

Horms are good at killing infantry, but so is everything else in the book, essentially. Ergo, they don't stand out because they don't have the ability to do more. They also don't have a lot of survivability, as we get into that whole "how many make it into CC, and will it be enough" dynamic.

The swarmlord is a great unit, yes, but he's expensive, and his ranged stuff doesn't effect (affect?) vehicles. Basically he's good at counter-assault, as the more savvy and better equipped enemies will ignore and avoid him.

Tevigons are a defensive MC that's useful for soaking fire, holding objectives, and boosting units with Catalyst. It's too bad they can't cast more than one psy power at a time. The trick to them is not to spawn until turn 4 or 5 if you can, and hope the enemy doesn't have enough firepower to take out any of the gaunts you spawn. Also note that he's a pretty good counter assault unit too, since he can spawn a squad of gaunts to throw into any units that assault him.

I've played with drop zoanthropes and Hive guard, and I'm still torn. You forget that HG are T6, and should be further away than more pressing threats to the enemy. I've had trouble with them since they're only S8 guns, and that doesn't reliably kill vehicles for me. I still require more testing.

The modelling problem isn't universal. Personally I took some 2nd edition warriors I had laying around, added Fex plates to their backs, and then greenstuffed some big guns on them. Voila', 6 Hg at a $0 cost to me, other than in time to assemble and paint.

Codeman90
01-18-2010, 01:23 AM
While the Swarmlord is expensive I think he couldn't reasonably be any chaeaper. 18" synapse range, powerful psychic abillities and ridiculous close combat rules make him very powerful, also its good if people avoid him. You want the objective? you'll have to kill the swarmlord and the gaunts.

Hormagaunts are alright, they're just as viable as termagaunts. The only reason no one will take them is because tervigons cant spawn them, which is fairly dissapointing as I would have a blast with FNP hormagaunts but such is life. I would get the Hive Guard but the Str8 worries me. I play gaurd as well (Infantry based Catachan army actually) and I have horrible track record with missiles. they might be ok. I prefer the killing power of the Zoanthrope but the Hive Guard are good too.

I'll most likely bring at least one Tervigon (because there wont exist tyranid lists that dont have at least one and a list with only one is going to be REALLY rare). They're a good unit and my termagaunts could use the help.

MVBrandt
01-18-2010, 06:22 AM
There's an analytical process required when identifying Tyranid points costs and what's "wrong" with them.

Swarmlords are priced properly for all of their abilities in a vaccuum, but the problem is that they're forcing you to pay for all of those abilities in the "base" cost. Think of, say, Wave Serpents. Wave Serpents are an extremely expensive transport in comparison to the current game, where armies are often rife with s7 and s8 firepower built to tackle the AV12 spam of the new guard. This devalues the Energy Field of a serpent significantly, and it's probably ~30 points of the vehicle's base cost. How many Eldar players would happily DROP the Energy Field if they could get their serpents down to a base points cost of about 50? It'd still be balanced and points appropriate. They'd be happy to pay 30 points to equip Serpents with an Energy Field.

The Swarmlord is basically in the same boat. While a very dangerous unit whose points cost is appropriate for what he does, its functionality is severely hampered by the fact that you're paying for a lot of side abilities and psy powers that you either will probably never use, or that you'd be happy to have as OPTIONS in exchange for a lower base cost and therefore more flexibility to fit into differing builds.

I think it's important to think on any entry that way ... imagine if you HAD to pay for one of the doctrines for each Veteran Squad in the Guard dex and their base cost were 100 + extras ... it would make them a worse unit, even though the doctrines are all arguably quite powerful and are certainly worth 30 points each.

Codeman90
01-18-2010, 12:03 PM
You make a good point. Which is why I would prefer the Swarmlord NOT be a special character. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a few games. If his unit doesnt perform well enough for his cost I'll brobably drop him for a second Hive tyrant with a Heavy Venom Cannon

I think the gargoyles are alright. I have a squad of 20 of them and the Blinding Venom rule is very nice. I would almost consider not deep striking them but it makes them a target. At 6 points the are at least useable unlike the crap 12 point ones in the old dex.

Tarrandus
01-19-2010, 02:00 AM
So, what's the opinion on Bonesword Warriors? On paper they look great, they cut through marines like butter, not to mention that they totally screw necrons, ignoring WBB and insta-killing that pesky Lord with the Res Orb. :D

Of course they're expensive, fragile, and have a huge target on thier heads. Just like everything else in the codex :p
I can't figure out the best way to deliver them. Footslogging means that they are going to get shot to hell and back, seeing as how nasty they are in assault. Dropping them in a spore on the other hand makes them just about useless till turn 3-4, and I don't see tying up that many points being a good idea.

So, are they relegated to Awesome but Impractical, or is there some way to make them work?

Caldera02
01-19-2010, 08:16 AM
Something I am about to try this week with my warriors is play testing them with lash whips & boneswords, talons, and Toxin sacs. My Flyrant will give them outflank and they will come from the side and if the enemy is in cover, who cares we go at the same time now!, muwwhahahahaha. On the other hand, if they end up sucking, back to being cover saves for my big guys lol.

MVBrandt
01-19-2010, 08:51 AM
Sure. It's a superlative word.

Lord Azaghul
01-19-2010, 08:51 AM
superlative

You really like that word don't you...:)

gcsmith
01-19-2010, 11:41 AM
Something I am about to try this week with my warriors is play testing them with lash whips & boneswords, talons, and Toxin sacs. My Flyrant will give them outflank and they will come from the side and if the enemy is in cover, who cares we go at the same time now!, muwwhahahahaha. On the other hand, if they end up sucking, back to being cover saves for my big guys lol.

You go 1st attacking into cover makes them I 10 not u I1 so u will go 1st :P

Tarrandus
01-19-2010, 12:15 PM
You go 1st attacking into cover makes them I 10 not u I1 so u will go 1st :P

That was last edition. Models that assault through cover are reduced to initiative 1, unless they have assault grenades.



Something I am about to try this week with my warriors is play testing them with lash whips & boneswords, talons, and Toxin sacs. My Flyrant will give them outflank and they will come from the side and if the enemy is in cover, who cares we go at the same time now!, muwwhahahahaha. On the other hand, if they end up sucking, back to being cover saves for my big guys lol.

Hadn't though of outflanking them. Good idea. :) I'm not sure about Bonesword/toxin sacs though. I thought Poison attacks were considered a special close combat attack so you couldn't stack them with a power weapon. I could be wrong though.

pelmen78
01-20-2010, 10:09 PM
I'm thinking the Mawloc and Deathleaper are going to be invaluable in objective missions, especially if you can be patient. Deploy Deathleaper into cover, shoot flesh hooks as needed. Go to ground when you get shot at, and pray they don't have flamers. Deep Strike using deathleaper as a homing beacon, then make him disappear. Make sure he reserves on turn 4, and pop him onto an objective turn 5 to contest. Mawloc is the same deal. Keep him at base points and out of the way. Turn 4 he burrows and turn 5 he lands on or near an opponent held objective. If you botch the deep strike, run onto it. Works really well if you go second.

I also keep seeing people run their tervigons out of gaunts super early, and it kinda makes me wonder why. The tervigon's offensive power is not that great. He's best for keeping himself alive, as a troop choice, on your objectives. If he runs low on wounds, start spawning, or if it looks like he's about to be charged use them as a screen. Do this turn 3-5 and you'll do much better. Who's more valuable, 8 gaunts that you spawn turn 1, or 8 gaunts you spawn turn 5 onto on objective? Or you could use them to to contest: spawn at 6" from the terv, move 6", fleet d6", charge. Can get a decent distance late game. These guys are game winners, but they're super defensve. Onslaught is a great psy power, but I'd never cast it if I could cast Catalyst. The utility is just better.

Caldera02
01-21-2010, 10:30 AM
That was last edition. Models that assault through cover are reduced to initiative 1, unless they have assault grenades.



Hadn't though of outflanking them. Good idea. :) I'm not sure about Bonesword/toxin sacs though. I thought Poison attacks were considered a special close combat attack so you couldn't stack them with a power weapon. I could be wrong though.

Think about it this way. Genestealers come with rending claws base. Then they give you the option of giving them toxin sacs. What else would be there intent if to not allow those two to interact. I believe the same applies to all similiar entries in the new dex. If someone can refute that, I'd love to hear a good argument.

Also, Termagants cannot fleet. They can only run. What if your tervigon gets killed on turn one? no gants poped out

pelmen78
01-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Caldera02,

One tervigon? Why are you running only one? Plus, the firepower needed to take one down is signifigant (especially if you can screen for it or hide it), so hopefully that means the rest of your army is relatively untouched and can reply in kind, or at least take advantage of the reprieve for movement. That would be my tactic, at any rate.

Caldera02
01-21-2010, 02:34 PM
You ever had a space wolf player one shot your tervigon with jaws?

Fizyx
01-22-2010, 10:19 AM
I think that in time you will see this sentiment proven wrong. Each Tervigon statistically produce 29 guants before rolling doubles, and the power, buffs, and awesomeness of these guys cannot be overstated.

How do you get 29? My calculations (numerical analysis, 10000 iterations) is 23.5 with a HUGE deviation (2-sigma of 18-ish.)

Of course, running them in pairs doubles the statistical mean, but also reduces the relative deviation tremendously. I would definitely advocate running them in pairs.

DoctorEvil
01-22-2010, 12:11 PM
How do you get 29? My calculations (numerical analysis, 10000 iterations) is 23.5 with a HUGE deviation (2-sigma of 18-ish.)

Of course, running them in pairs doubles the statistical mean, but also reduces the relative deviation tremendously. I would definitely advocate running them in pairs.

That's interesting.....what's the average number of turns that the Terrivigon lasts before rolling doubles? I figure there is a 1 in 3 chance in any given turn, but I'm not a stastics guy, so I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

DarkLink
01-22-2010, 03:14 PM
That's interesting.....what's the average number of turns that the Terrivigon lasts before rolling doubles? I figure there is a 1 in 3 chance in any given turn, but I'm not a stastics guy, so I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

There isn't really a way to say "on average you'll get X turns". The closest you can get is "X% chance of rolling doubles on turn one, Y% chance of lasting till turn 2, Z% chance of lasting till turn 3..." and so on.

Fizyx
01-22-2010, 05:10 PM
That's interesting.....what's the average number of turns that the Terrivigon lasts before rolling doubles? I figure there is a 1 in 3 chance in any given turn, but I'm not a stastics guy, so I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

Well, that statistical average of # of turns is actually not difficult at all. The problem is, it is nearly useless.

What Dark said is, though. You can calculate the % chance pretty easily once you know the chance of a single event. I'm in a hurry, I'll chug the number later if you like.

CaptainSinon
01-23-2010, 03:50 PM
genestealers are good too! multiple outflanking psykers which are close combat monsters and still dirt cheap(ish) and are scoring units? ;)

CaptainSinon
01-23-2010, 03:52 PM
Well, that statistical average of # of turns is actually not difficult at all. The problem is, it is nearly useless.

What Dark said is, though. You can calculate the % chance pretty easily once you know the chance of a single event. I'm in a hurry, I'll chug the number later if you like.

4/9 in any given turn i think... which would mean even if you took a full 5 youd be lucky to get one through a full game... but FREE GAUNTS!!!!

gcsmith
01-23-2010, 04:27 PM
ive playtested them recently, not worth their points, the gaunts easily killed and the tervs at I1 tend to die, then again may be my bad dice

DarkLink
01-23-2010, 08:56 PM
ive playtested them recently, not worth their points, the gaunts easily killed and the tervs at I1 tend to die, then again may be my bad dice

One or two are solid, I think, but this is the reason why a 5 Tervigon spam list doesn't really scare me. It sounds intimidating, but ends up being rather impotent.

gcsmith
01-24-2010, 07:29 AM
well i did have 3 but i think only 2 are needed, as u dnt often have enough gaunts to spawn 3 on turn one.

Tarrandus
01-24-2010, 10:04 PM
Spawning turn one= doing it wrong.

You can really only rely on a Tervigon for one or two squads of gaunts.Don't pop them out to get shot out when you can have them sit tight in your handy little 6 wound monster. Tervigons are essentially transports for nids, so why disembark before you've reached the enemy? You only want to start spawning the turn you can get into assault.

pelmen78
01-25-2010, 08:56 AM
Heck, Tarrandus, I've had fantastic results with leaving the tervigon and the minimum squad I took to get him on an objective while the rest of my army rips the opponent to shreds. That way you hold one objective in Capture in Control, or two in Sieze Ground, and then go contest everything else. Most of the time I'm Catalysting the Tervigon, as everything else is munching down too far away. I know that leaves me vulnerable to the non-linear-ness of current 40k, but my opponent can't hide that he has outflankers or deep strikers, so I can anticipate that. All good. Definitely run double tervigons with minimum troops otherwise. Heh, I had a tervigon explode a contesting land raider yesterday. It was unexpected, and great.

CaptainSinon
01-28-2010, 01:01 PM
i actually think terivgon spam COULD be effective if used right - if you spend 1-2 turns running like mad at the enemy with regenning tervigons with FNP and then spawn youd be able to increase your chances, and anyway you can keep them cheap enough to hav a few fun bits in your army (zoanthropes venomthropes doom of malantai?) it may not be able to take on everything but could take on most with a reasonable chance of winning a 6 wound MC which is a scoring unit is good in anyones book :)

Caldera02
01-28-2010, 02:40 PM
So tarrandus, what happens when on turn 1, IG melts that tervigon and you decided not to spit out any gants? There's no reason NOT to spit them out every turn, unless you are playing kill points.

Your counter-argument likely being, "But then they will shoot the gants".....you know what...AWESOME! because they are not shooting at my other nasties. I like this idea...

Tarrandus
01-28-2010, 08:16 PM
There's no reason NOT to spit them out every turn, unless you are playing kill points.

The reason being you can't spit them out every turn. You're going to get out 1-2 turns, 3 if you get lucky. When the game is winding down, and your tervigon is hunkering down on an objective, would you rather have 10 gaunts to help hold it, or do you want 10 gaunts that caught a nova cannon and died first turn?



Your counter-argument likely being, "But then they will shoot the gants".....you know what...AWESOME! because they are not shooting at my other nasties. I like this idea...

The thing is though, with a tervigon gaunts now represent a viable threat. You get 20 tervigon backed gaunts into combat, stuff is going to die. Maybe it's the difference in our thinking: I see gaunts as a valuable assault troop, you see them as a bullet shield. I can't really respond to your argument, since we're pretty much opposite sides of the coin. How and why we field gaunts and tervigons is different.

I guess my original statement was a bit strong. I'll go with this:

Spawning turn one= different playstyle from mine. :D