Tyranid Fluff / Hive Mind = Dumb@ss

[Dark_Templar]

Am reading through the new tyranid codex, and it seems they wrote many stories about their many many losses, which seems to show the Hive Mind's adaptation skills might be overrated.

I mean, Calgar learnt and adapted from previous battles, but the Hive Mind didn't? It seems it can adapt on the fly, but has ni concept of "Hey, we fought thus big blue-handed dude last time, how can we learn from that"?

Am I looking at this wrong?

[Cryl]

Actually I took the opposite from the background in the latest 'nids book, it actually made the tyranids sound like the awesome threat to the galaxy that they are.

Yes the tyranids "lost" the battle of Macragge, but they hit one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium that was defended by an entire sector fleet, the Ultramar fleet, the Ultramarines Battlebarges, not to mention the sheer mass of Imperial military might that was on the planet itself. The swarmlord actually tactically outwitted a chapter master with centuries of miltary experience and personally kicked the hell out of him not to mention exterminating the entire first company! They also made quite a mess of the Ultramar PDF and fleet as well as butchering most of the 7th when they went to the North Pole to extract what they thought was left of the 1st.

Sure they burnt out the hive fleets resources in the process but they've not done that again and given that was pretty much the only way a chapters base planet could defeat them it doesn't bode well for the rest of the imperium

[david5th]

Actually I took the opposite from the background in the latest 'nids book, it actually made the tyranids sound like the awesome threat to the galaxy that they are.

Yes the tyranids "lost" the battle of Macragge, but they hit one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium that was defended by an entire sector fleet, the Ultramar fleet, the Ultramarines Battlebarges, not to mention the sheer mass of Imperial military might that was on the planet itself. The swarmlord actually tactically outwitted a chapter master with centuries of miltary experience and personally kicked the hell out of him not to mention exterminating the entire first company! They also made quite a mess of the Ultramar PDF and fleet as well as butchering most of the 7th when they went to the North Pole to extract what they thought was left of the 1st.

Sure they burnt out the hive fleets resources in the process but they've not done that again and given that was pretty much the only way a chapters base planet could defeat them it doesn't bode well for the rest of the imperium

I totally agree. The new codex shows the Tyranids to be possibly the biggest threat the galaxy ( aside form the slumbering necrons ) has or will face. look at their ability to adapt to ammunition - hive fleet Gorgon or the Ghorala swarm coming back from near destruction.

Its simple - Adapt or Die.

[Dark_Templar]

I agree with the Swarmlord being a complete bad@ss, and I agree that the 'nids are shown as a massive threat.

On the flipside though, this massive threat always seemed to be able to be repelled at the last minute by some heroic Space Marine or Eldar.

I just find these scenarios kind of unlikely when whole battle fleets are destroyed without issue but when a character comes along whose name the public knows, all of a sudden the Tyranids roll over and die.

Anyways, before anybody thinks I am just a 'nid fanboy have a whine, think again. I do not play Tyranids. Never have. Do not own a single model simple for collectability. I just feel that in order to show them being a threat, perhaps they could actually succeed in wiping out something important rather than thinking "Hey, lets split Kraken so that we are attacking two difficult targets at half strength".

I suppose the upside is that there is not much left of the "good guys" once the Hive Fleet has been defeated.

p.s. Adapting to weaponry, especially the Tau stuff, was pretty impressive.

[Just_Me]

I just find these scenarios kind of unlikely when whole battle fleets are destroyed without issue but when a character comes along whose name the public knows, all of a sudden the Tyranids roll over and die.

Well... that is the nature of being the bad guy hordes... When you are the nameless faceless forces of evil any good guy with a name will walk all over you, watch any movie :D.

Not having received my copy of the 'dex yet I can't comment anything else.

[rkiviman]

Hey, maybe I'm wrong!! Do you mean by victory destroying Terra or defeating Imperium forces. They've won plenty of victories against the Imperium. How many planets have they taken and consumed? How many have they forced the Imperium to virus bomb and leave uninhabitable for generations? It seem's the Nid's are doing rather well?? They're tough and adapt quickly to their enemy. Perhaps it's the Imperium that needs to learn more of/from them.The way it keeps going humanity will be gone and the rest will fighting the 'Nids for supremacy. That would be intresting?!:confused:

[Cryl]

I agree with the Swarmlord being a complete bad@ss, and I agree that the 'nids are shown as a massive threat.

On the flipside though, this massive threat always seemed to be able to be repelled at the last minute by some heroic Space Marine or Eldar.

I just find these scenarios kind of unlikely when whole battle fleets are destroyed without issue but when a character comes along whose name the public knows, all of a sudden the Tyranids roll over and die.

I'm not sure it's that they roll over and die... I'll use Calgar as an example here, as the UM Chapter Master the entire galaxy knows his name :P. Ok so a hive fleet rampages through his planetary system leaving at least one world completely devoid of life (Prandium - coincidence that's latin for lunch?), practically kills him and would have if it wasn't for a lot of sacrifices by Imperial forces, wipes out hundreds (a third of the chapter maybe?) of Ultramarines (this is a really big deal given how long it takes to replace them) not to mention the loss of an Emperor class battleship (can the Imperium even replace these?) and god knows what else in the battle in space. That's all in the battle that the Imperium wins..

I can't remember the detail of the xenos battles as well but I'm pretty sure that the ones they "win" are more a case of surviving rather than actually winning any real victory in the sense that you can win against a traditional enemy.

[Night System]

Going back to the point about named characters turn up and turn the tide of battle?
Well in the battle of Iyandan Yriel did bring an entire corsair fleet with him, desperate reinforcements the eldar needed which defeated the tyranid fleet.

While on the surface of the craftworld....

Disapointment face :(

What happened to Maugen Ra striding out of the webway with hundreds of Dark Reapers and gunning down the tyranid hordes?

That said the line talking about the avatar challenging the hive tyrant made me laugh :)

[david5th]

Going back to the point about named characters turn up and turn the tide of battle?
Well in the battle of Iyandan Yriel did bring an entire corsair fleet with him, desperate reinforcements the eldar needed which defeated the tyranid fleet.

While on the surface of the craftworld....

Disapointment face :(

What happened to Maugen Ra striding out of the webway with hundreds of Dark Reapers and gunning down the tyranid hordes?

That said the line talking about the avatar challenging the hive tyrant made me laugh :)

Avatar " you over there, stop smashing everything and play nice."

Swarmlord - " what me, nah mate i've got mouths the feed."

Avatar " If that is your repsonse i challange ye to a duel."

Swarmlord " you still ere, boys get him "

Avatar " Oh Crap ."

[Just_Me]

Well the thing of it is, that while the Imperium has managed to win against the Hive Fleets so far, nearly every victory has been a pyrrhic victory:

The battle against Behemoth cost several worlds, vast numbers of men and ships from Battlefleet Tempestus, and dealt the Ultramarines a blow that in all honesty they still have not fully recovered from.

Kraken consumed huge swathes of Imperial space on the fringe before finally exhausting itself against both the Imperial and Eldar defenses (in the process costing the Imperium dearly and reducing the mightiest of all the craftworlds to all but a ghost town, literally and figuratively).

Finally Leviathan was never really "defeated" it was slowed through costly holding actions and ruthless "scorched earth" tactics where the Imperium burned hundreds perhaps thousands of its own worlds, though in the process it consumed a major forgeworld and all but annihilated an entire Titan Legion. In the end it wasn't destroyed, just reduced and diverted into Ork space where it continues to fight to this day.

Every "victory" has been bought at such cost to the Imperium that under any other circumstances they would be considered the losers. To paraphrase; "one more such victory would utterly undo them."

[Dark_Templar]

I know every victory has basically been a pyrrhic one, but the codex doesn't really give me the feeling that there were any repercussions to their losses.

I would have preferred to have seen at least one Hive Fleet completely devour a MAJOR planet.

Anyways, my thought is that perhaps all of this is just the Hive Mind testing the waters before opening up a can. Even as somebody who doesn't mind the UM, I would like to see Calgar go down though between now and 6th ed Codex.

The 12 Carnifexes on the Avatar was nice.

I also have to say that the mention that the Tyranids might be running from something definitely excited me a bit, I would like to see them follow this up.

All in all though, the more time I have to think of it, the more I do appreciate the fluff in the new codex, some of it is quite good.

DT.

[gcsmith]

The tyranids running from a threat has been passed around b4, many poeple have sed that they might be running, wat must worry the imperium is, wat the hell can make a force that would minlessly charge the UM home planet without thought or care feel fear, thats wat should worry them more than nids, also dnt forget that nids aint just consuming, they did try to talk to the imperium with zoats, maybe they tried to say, um let us help u against the big legion of BILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIONS of mobile planet size galaxie eating super moths or something lol :p

[Unlighted]

Squats are chasing the Nids!!

The Nids got tired of short people crushing their kneecaps in their home galaxy so they are running to this one. The small colony of Sqauts in this galaxy was wiped out because the Nids saw a chance for easy vengeance. The main force of Squats is busy wacking the Nids in the dark void of deep space where no one can hear the cries of pain....

If the galaxy survives the Nids it will suffer a fate worse than death as the Squats crush all kneecaps in existence!! ;)

[Drew da Destroya]

Honestly, GW has been breathing hints about the Squats in recent codexes... the Tyranid codex mentions some "ships that had not been seen since Golgotha had been destroyed" (paraphrased, I don't have the book in front of me right now), and that's even in the same sentence that mentions the Demiurg... an interesting coincidence. It's in the description of one of the hive fleet invasions (Jormagund maybe?), talking about the one admiral gathering a big multi-species fleet to fight the bugs.

I believe there was also a vague half-mention of the squats in the IG book, but I haven't read through the fluff section of that in a while, so could be wrong.

Maybe the Stunties really are chasing the Bugeyes, and they're raging mad about being written out of the fluff?

[Dark_Templar]

The tyranids running from a threat has been passed around b4, many poeple have sed that they might be running, wat must worry the imperium is, wat the hell can make a force that would minlessly charge the UM home planet without thought or care feel fear, thats wat should worry them more than nids

I am aware that the theory has floated for a LONG time, but that was my point, that I could see it there in an official GW publication, which means it could be used further down the track (pardon me if it has been published prior and I missed it).