Dealing with 58+ S7 shots at 36" range [1850]

[clever handle]

So lets just pose this hypothetical: Lets say there's an army out there that can comfortably put out nearly 60 S7 shots per turn at ranges up to 36". Now lets assume that a significant amount of these shots are twin linked, lets also assume that the base unit is fairly mobile and comes with a decent, but not amazing level of survivability - the survivability comes from the first strike potential...

Now lets also assume that at the 1850 points level, this army is capable of bringing enough melta, that can get exactly where it needs to be with almost pinpoint accuracy so as to ensure that simply taking AV14 to render the S7 useless isn't the easy-win button we're all looking for.

How does one go about contending with this army?
- the S7 is more than enough to remove 3-4 vehicles AV12 or less from the table per turn
- say goodbye to around 12-15 MEQ per turn (double that for anything without a 3+ save...)
- cover, unless its total LOS obscuring, is meaningless.

...if you haven't guessed, I'm talking about a farsight enclaves army loaded for bear with MP & HYMP (and haven't even discussed the double-riptides the list can bring). Drop Pods / Deep Striking don't work due to an abundance of EWO. Flyers don't work as even without skyfire there's too much flak in the air - unless you go whole hog & bring an air-force (then good luck surviving turn 1!).... Oh yeah & this is a bound list.

There's a fellow at our FLGS who brings such an army, and despite being a super-nice guy, nobody enjoys playing against because no matter what we try we simply can't compete. This list is shutting down balanced space marines, fast & aggressive (T2 assault-based) chaos lists as well as durable (nurgle) lists, eldar, orks, dark eldar & nids. Pretty much you name it & its getting stuffed by an abundance of S7 shooting...

[CoffeeGrunt]

I don't see how you got Twin-Linked and Highly Mobile from the same Tau unit there. You can only T-L one unit and under Farsight, none at all as you can't get the C&CN. Broadsides are a very immobile unit.

A bit more detail on the list would help us think of counters. Presumably there's a Broadside Firebase, which cry like babymen when Lascannons re pointed at them unless they're bloated with Drones.

[clever handle]

(3) units of (3) Crisis suits w/ double MP gives you (12) mobile S7 shots
(2) units of (3) broadside suits gives you the same volume of, less mobile but TL, S7 shots
season to taste w/ Tetras for precision deepstriking of the (3) solo suits each equipped w/ Fusion - these guys DS in danger-close, fusion any high AV targets, then dash away to claim objectives in Maelstrom, or simply be a nuisance otherwise.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Shoot the Tetras seems to be your first concern. I'm assuming you're running Marines? If they're getting close enough to Precision drop suits in Melta range, they're close enough to kill as they can't move before DS, you have a turn to react.

Lascannons are capable of outranging most of his force, and if you get the drop on him for turn one, nailing the Tetras early on would be a boon. Do the Broadsides bring Drones? If not, even in Cover a Lascannon leaves them with a 50/50 chance of dropping dead, so you might scare him into Going to Ground. Forcing him to Snap Fire as much as possible and crippling his Markerlights will increase your chances of success massively as, despite the high volume, not much will get through to make a mark, (Even 3 Broadsides will only average about 3-4 hits with their HYMPs.)

[This Dave]

How to counter it depends on what armies you have available. Off the top of my head against something like that you might try:

Heavy armor. Land Raiders of various types would ignore completely the S7 shots. Maybe use some to provide moving cover so the Marines can get close.

Heavy armor part 2. Several Guard Demolishers/Executioners have the front armor to ignore the shots and the firepower to wreck battle suit face. Throw in a blob or two of meat shields, ear brave troops to screen the tanks from deep striking suits.

Heavy armor part 3. Knights might do okay. They can ignore most of the shots and they have enough HPs to get close enough to start doing a rain dance on some Broadsides.

Heavy armor part 4. Baneblade company?

Psychic dickery. Have a couple Psykers to cast Invisibility on some units to keep them safer until they can get close enough.

Drown them in the Green Tide. Throw two 100+ model Boys mobs at them. May not win but it'll be worth the laugh. :)

[clever handle]

@CoffeeGrunt
Frankly, this army does not rely upon its marker-light support for much except removing cover saves from things without the 3+, and from vehicles. (3) Broadsides w/ TL:HYMP will actually average 8 hits wont they (3*4)*(3/4)...

Occasionally the broadsides bring drones, if the fellow is bringing double-riptide then he doesn't have the points - and frankly I'd prefer to face the double riptide as without the drones every shot on target hurts the broadsides.

Regarding the Tetras - don't they give the ability to reroll the D6 for scatter distance if they can draw line of sight to the DS target? Unless you can bring them ALL down turn 1 it seems like a waste to target them over any of the suits.

Personally I run a "balanced" dark eldar straight out of 3rd edition, but with a couple units of blasterborne - I just always seem to suffer from rubber-lance syndrome (I've heard there's a pill that fixes it available somewhere...) but when they do manage to work it seems I'm best suited for the job - I can sit @ 36" w/ nightshields and plink away at the suits - prioritizing the more mobile crisis suits over the static broadsides. Key phrase "when they do manage to work"

and the aggressive chaos I mentioned above - the chaos list lacks long range shooting, except for (1) unit of oblits & instead uses maulerfiends, bikes & spawn to push aggressively, hoping to get into combat T2... the only problem is by T2 I've generally lost all the models mentioned above as they charge headlong into an almost literal wall of missles.

@Dave
as mentioned, relying upon AV14 just isn't going to work - Turn one you're safe (unless the tank hunting HQ or two riptides gank you) but T2 you've got (3) solo-suits deepstriking aggressively c/w (probably) fusion+TL:fusion. Generally even one of these guys is going to put a big hurt on your land-raiders and/or IG heavy tanks.

Green tide absolutely does not work as this is a list that can EASILY remove 30 orks from the table each turn once you've stepped into that 36" bubble - it gets worse once you're within 30" & the TL:SMS start flying as well.. Slaaneshi daemons may have a decent chance, but they're almost twice as expensive as boys, and only 30% more survivable - the army is still easily capable of removing 20+ T3 5++ models per turn due to volume of fire.

@All
it seems like for marines, lascannon devastators / havocs may be the answer (super-expensive FNP, slaaneshi havocs?), sitting at max range & firing away. With the anticipated rise in high-AV targets (necrons, land raiders, guard) this may not be a bad unit... we may be back towards this loadout over autocannon devs... its just such an ugly-expensive & static unit that I personally struggle with the idea.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Regarding the Tetras - don't they give the ability to reroll the D6 for scatter distance if they can draw line of sight to the DS target? Unless you can bring them ALL down turn 1 it seems like a waste to target them over any of the suits.

No, they're equipped with a standard Homing Beacon, (No Deep Strike scatter within 6".) They have to get close.


(3) Broadsides w/ TL:HYMP will actually average 8 hits wont they (3*4)*(3/4)...

They will if you're not forcing them to Snap Fire, yes. As far as Lascannons, I think 7th was the death of the Missile Launcher. It has too little Anti-Armour ability now, so you want that small chance of Explodes on hard targets from the Ap2, and +1S helps you get it. Not to mention it making Broadsides and Riptides, etc much easier to put down.

[clever handle]

@coffeegrunt
F@c& FW and having rules all over the place. I believe we've been playing those guys incorrectly...

I personally never ran ML havocs - it was autocannons or geared for up-close with multiple meltaguns. In the new era of "its all scoring" 240+ points for (4) lascannons may be worth it but it just seems WAY too expensive for a single unit - especially since as the only long range AT, that will be target priority #1.

[This Dave]

If this guy's army is as crazy mobile as you say Devastator squads won't be too useful for too long. And they can't put out enough firepower to kill a lot of suits since they will have Shield Drones or cover.

If all he has is 3 dope striking suits that's what the bubble wrap of guardsmen is for. Even just buy Conscripts, they're cheaper so you can make a bigger wrap. And one suit is more points than a whole herd of them. Have them stand around the tanks while the tanks blow the crap out of the suits. Take an Officer of the Fleet to mess with his reserve rolls so you have more time to pound him before they come in. Or take some stuff with Interceptor yourself to blow the things back to hell when they land.

Give him more targets to deal with. Maybe have some Vendettas or Storm Ravens come in and blast suits. Sure if his entire army shoots at them he'll probably knock it down but it should get a turn of shooting in and in the turn it gets killed the rest of your army can be pounding them.

These aren't foolproof tactics by any means but they're better than just standing and getting shot in the face.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tetra: Equipped with a Heavy 2, T-L Markerlight, T-L Pulse Rifle, Fast Skimmer, AV10 all sides, 2HP. Also has a Homing Beacon. (I'll say the points cost is 2.5 Tac Marines these days as I know some forums dislike points cost posting.) Even in its previous iteration, it never did that style of Deep Strike aiding.

Oblierators are also Godly, because you've got the gun you need at all times, Lascannons for the Suits, Assault Cannons for the Tetras, etc, etc.

[clever handle]

@Dave,
that's my concern regarding the devastators - sure I may get lucky, but the crisis suits are mobile, can hop up from behind cover, blast & then drop back out of LOS. I may get lucky & find them without something to hide behind / ability to fit, but that's about it really. The broadsides are not mobile, so it is very possible to deploy 36.1" away & at least be safe for a round - this would require targeting the crisis suits first since they can JSJ, then deal with the broadsides. The problem here is that (3) units of suits, in range can reliably kill (5) space marines per turn with only average rolls. so that 10-man, 240+ point dev squad is really only getting (1), maybe (2) chances.
If the suits have drones, gotta use small-arms first, which means being within 24", which means being in a rhino, surviving T1, rushing forwards, unloading (probably into range of the broadsides, who can now add their SMS to the mix) only to kill a couple of shield drones....

The problem w/ bubble-wrap is simple the volume of S7 firepower can destroy your bubble-wrap T1 in preparation for the D/S arrival T2 - I've tried it with cultists.

The problem w/ flyers, is as I mentioned above - this volume of fire we're discussiong doesn't take into account the (2) riptides, one of which comes w/ HBC, earth caste pilot & EWO - even without skyfire (which I believe it can still take...), putting out that volume of firepower is enough to at least mitigate the shooting, if not out-right destroy an AV12 flyer the turn it hits the board.

@Coffeegrunt
I've seen a FW rules sheet for the tetra that had them in at approx 3.5 tactical marines, c/w heavy 4 markerlight & some rule regarding DS per what I mentioned above... I've seen the rules you mention, but I never did really look at the updated rules for the homing beacon. Either way, with an effective 9" melta, 2" base & 6" radius, that means the tetra needs to find its way <16" from your target of choice.

Nurgle oblits are golden & I'd take them over the full dev squad almost every day. Only flaw is that if/when that first salvo fails, you don't have lascannons again until T3.


@all
I know the list is beatable - it is comprised of approx 20 MEQ wounds, 12 TEQ wounds and 10 of some of the toughest MC wounds in the game. IF one is able of getting into rapidfire range of the crisis suits, they fall just like marines & lose potency so much faster. Its just that without good terrain, or going first, or hoping for bad rolls (never plan on your opponent's bad rolls!), getting there seems all but impossible for a balanced list.

[CoffeeGrunt]

w/ HBC, earth caste pilot & EWO

If he's not running Velocity Trackers for Skyfire, then he'd be wasting it on Fliers. It's only 8 shots base, 12 if he Charges it, and only re-rolling 1s, too. Since it's only S6 it's actually fairly pitiful even with Rending. If he has Skyfire, you're looking at a 240pt Riptide with no Feel No Pain that can't Charge it's shields to go for a 3++ as it needs to Charge its gun to be remotely useful. This one should fall fairly well to AP2 Plasma fire or Grav Guns.


I've seen a FW rules sheet for the tetra that had them in at approx 3.5 tactical marines, c/w heavy 4 markerlight & some rule regarding DS per what I mentioned above... I've seen the rules you mention, but I never did really look at the updated rules for the homing beacon. Either way, with an effective 9" melta, 2" base & 6" radius, that means the tetra needs to find its way <16" from your target of choice.

Ah, outdated. Would be nice for FW to keep stuff properly up-to-date. I've got the 2nd Ed Taros book in my hands right now - looking at those excellent Elysian Vultures - so trust those rules as the newest. :)

Perhaps a Balestar Sorceror attached to a squad of Obbies? Tau have pitiful Psychic defence, so you can try Perfect Timing and Prescience to give them Twin-Linked and/or Ignores Cover. Both would be devastating against the static Broadsides, but I'd really focus on one or the other for the target at hand.

I personally would consider this a very That Guy list to bring, even as a Tau player. I tend to pull back on overpowered lists I cook up, and tweak them until they make closer, more fun games. This just seems like a spam for victory list with all that S7 shooting.

[clever handle]

it is very much a "that guy list" and for friendly pickup games we give him so much **** I'm worried he'll quit the hobby. Which is a shame, because other than this list he is a nice guy. He just happened to come to BOLS when he started the hobby, learned what everyone states is a "must take" and bought that, it didn't hurt that he likes the aesthetics of his army & is painting them up all tron-like, they look very nice.

Regardless, its the type of list I've seen on multiple table-tops in regional tournaments, I've just bee lucky enough to not face it (something about taking dark eldar to tournaments means that after round 1 you're very unlikely to face top tier lists...)

We warn him that it really isn't his tactics that's winning him games & have gotten to the point where we (a) refuse to play, and (b) challenge him to list swap matches. Next week he has a game lined up against his regular opponent where they'll be swapping lists.

[SgtJoo]

I should note that while my local scene doesn't care about using FW at all, everyone else's might not be the same, so take this with a grain of salt.

Land Raider Achilles with a Tech Marine/MotF inside. It's almost entirely immune to his army, and the little damage he does do is getting repaired. It's a solid enough firebase that can really cause someone to have a bad day. With explosions happening only on 7s and the Achilles being a -1 to the damage table, combined with it's immunity to the extra melta D6 roll and you've got a really solid vehicle on your hands.

That said, I run an entirely drop pod list that has done rather well against the Farsight lists I've run into, especially if I get first turn. Lots of Sternguard/Deathstorms are a heck of an alpha strike. He can only Intercept so much! And let's be honest, I'd rather him fire at BS3 since he won't get the markerlight support. It aint perfect and it gets a bit bloody, but boy is it fun!

Just two things off the top of my head, I'm sure I'll think of more.

Unrelated to the list, how's the terrain situation where you play? Is there any completely LoS blocking terrain? A lot of the stores I've played at seem to be lacking in that department, so I've started bringing my own. It really does change the game.

[This Dave]

Well if he can kill two very large units of Conscripts without taking any casualties in return he's doing something right. I seriously doubt it though.

Since you don't like the idea of bubble wrapping then take an Armored Regiment from IA 1 volume 2. In an 1850 list you could get 5 or 6 Demolishers and a couple Vanquishers with Beast Slayer rounds to put AP 2 Instant Death on his Riptides. Even if he takes out a couple tanks with his deep striking suits you should still gank a good chunk of his army in the first or second volley.

I haven't run into a cheese all list like that in a friendly game before but the look on a Tau player's face when you one shot two Riptides is priceless. :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I do feel or him, there's moments I've built horrible lists by accident because sweet Jesus Tau are cool with their Battlesuits and their giant Gundams and the Hover Tanks and hey, where'd your army go? Oh...oops.

It'll be good for him to see how harsh that sort of list is to play. Hopefully he can start building more balanced lists in the future. I personally really don't like Broadsides, too slow for my style of Tau play.

[clever handle]

doesn't have to kill them all. Just enough to secure a landing spot within 9". As mentioned, with 58 missiles (that can ignore cover!) you're looking at (58)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 24 dead models if he's got everybody in range (not counting almost 1/2 of those shots being TL!)

the answer does seem to be sit at 36.1" away and prioritize the crisis suits when I can, if not target the broadsides, only moving forward when he gets bored & chooses to either break cover or I've killed enough CS that moving into the broadside's range is an acceptable risk.

Big issue is I don't play guard! Death to the false emperor and all that...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Remember that he needs Markerlights to Ignore Cover, and two for each unit. You really need to squeeze those early.

[clever handle]

we allow FW - this guy is running FW tetra's & a fancy Taros HQ R'alai.

the terrain at our store is fairly decent. I have personally augmented it with an imperial sector specifically built to add LOS blocking terrain that you can hide a squad behind. We're trying to encourage an infinity scene as well so we need LOTS of terrain of all types.

[Caitsidhe]

Drop and pop strategy works pretty well against it too. While I realize Tau has decent access to interceptor, they can't come close to stopping the forces coming in from a dedicated drop pod army, most of which can liquidate those annoying suits in a single turn. They use the same weapons for doing so as they do to kill Knights and various other things. Is it ideal? No. Is it for everyone? No. Are Tau silly? Yes. Eh. No point in worrying about the balance of such lists; the game has no balance left anyway. Every time I run into Tau these days I put almost my entire army in reserve (most of them can drop and pop or outflank) and stick a few units hidden from LOS and wait. No point in putting things on the board to let them get shot. You might as well do your drop and pop and reduce their shooting with your own Alpha Strike. That way you are close to them and only suffer a single round (of hopefully reduced) shooting before you try to assault.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, make sure you've got lots of LOS blocking terrain. Often as not, when someone is having issue with Tau it's because they're playing on a board with nothing but craters and an aegis defense line.

[Theik]

Oddly enough the correct answer to this problem has yet to be posted.

A game is best described as "an activity that one engages in for amusement."
Somebody cheesing with 58+ S7 shots at 1850 points is hardly amusing.


As such the correct response to this situation is "screw you guys, I'm going home.", as in "come up with a real list or find somebody else to play against from now on". I understand that he might be your friend, but this is the kind of list you aren't playing because you like playing the game, it's the kind of list you play because you want a cheap, easy win. Find better friends.

[DarkLink]

Oddly enough, there is more than one way to play and enjoy games like 40k, and assuming your way is the "correct" way is exceptionally arrogant. It's also judgemental and insulting to assume that just because someone plays a cheesy army, they're somehow a bad person and not worth being friends with.

[marful]

Wouldn't Coteaz put some hurt on any unit deep striking in your backfield?

[Myster2]

I would personally do the boyz horde list as stated above. Your opponent is doing a pretty specialized list so I would respond by bringing 150-180 boyz, warboss, docs, SAG's, a couple of bombers, and depending on the AP on the guns flavor as needed. You said that the list kills 30 boyz a turn, yep no big deal. They will be into combat on turn 3 minus 60 boyz. 90-120 boyz is still going to ruin his day and whatever gets away gets bombed.

[clever handle]

Oddly enough the correct answer to this problem has yet to be posted.

A game is best described as "an activity that one engages in for amusement."
Somebody cheesing with 58+ S7 shots at 1850 points is hardly amusing.


As such the correct response to this situation is "screw you guys, I'm going home.", as in "come up with a real list or find somebody else to play against from now on". I understand that he might be your friend, but this is the kind of list you aren't playing because you like playing the game, it's the kind of list you play because you want a cheap, easy win. Find better friends.

As previously stated - the gentleman in question bought models based on the aesthetic that he liked - namely he likes the way his paint job looks on the suits, nobody can argue that the suits & new broadsides aren't fantastic models. Also as mentioned, we DO rip on this guy for his list that is generally too hard for a friendly-pick-up game type list, however I for one am not prepared to simply give up. In a pick-up game environment the list is a bit rough, but I attend tournaments & this is not an unreasonable tournament list. It is quite balanced in that its advantages more than make up for its shortcomings. as far as I can tell the only real "hard counter" to this list would be an imperial flyer spam.


Wouldn't Coteaz put some hurt on any unit deep striking in your backfield?

He could. But for us non-imperial players allying in Coteaz just to put a hurt on some deepstriking battlesuits seems a bit silly.


As I stated above, I feel my balanced Dark Eldar have a good chance to win this battle - venoms @ 36.1" target crisis suits, Dark lances at 36.1" target tetras & broadsides. Unfortunately, due to the nature of his list construction the game will be my definition of unfun 40K. Namely: deploy, counter-deploy, shoot ; shoot ; shoot ;etc....

W/ my chaos I'm going to try the Balestar sorc c/w Nurgle oblits & bring the Helbrute formation that gives me a TL:LC c/w 20 meat shields & a 3+ LOS.... Minor change to my list, adding in more long range firepower at a loss of some generally useless cultist bodies; only downside is the loss of the AOBF lord - the Blade of the Relentless just never seems to pay off for me.

[40kGamer]

A game is best described as "an activity that one engages in for amusement."
Somebody cheesing with 58+ S7 shots at 1850 points is hardly amusing.

1850 is actually a pretty high PV and 58+ S7 shots is perfectly reasonable at this level. There are a host of ways to play from super competitive to full on useless unit fluffy and all are equally valid. Knowing where a game is going to land on this scale lets you adapt your army to the situation and not playing anyone on the spectrum is a missed opportunity. I enjoy the in your face competitive games just as much as the full fluffy ones for very different reasons. So walking away is not a universally good answer by any means.

Personally I would go full drop pods and try to overwhelm the interceptors. I build a drop list with some max value pods and some very low value pods so I can get ~75% of my full PV on board turn 1.

[Caitsidhe]

Oddly enough the correct answer to this problem has yet to be posted.

A game is best described as "an activity that one engages in for amusement."
Somebody cheesing with 58+ S7 shots at 1850 points is hardly amusing.


As such the correct response to this situation is "screw you guys, I'm going home.", as in "come up with a real list or find somebody else to play against from now on". I understand that he might be your friend, but this is the kind of list you aren't playing because you like playing the game, it's the kind of list you play because you want a cheap, easy win. Find better friends.

The Eric Cartman answer to problems might appeal to you, but to mature adults it does not. Whether or not a list is too powerful (cheese) or not is entirely subjective. Volume of nasty shooting is all the Tau have. I am not a Tau player. I don't like going up against it. I realize, however, that demanding they gut the only thing they have going for them is tantamount to be being a whiny git who apparently needs help and a handicap to play the game. No thank you. Running away from the problem doesn't seem like an answer to me either, nor a particularly good example of good sportsmanship. Two people acting like jerks hardly improves a situation.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again now. "Don't hate the playa... hate the game." The game is so broken now that they didn't even attempt to fix it. That would have taken real effort. They did, to their credit, do the next best thing. They accepted the fact that they had so broken the game in regards to balance that the only option besides actually fixing it was to open the floodgates. There is cheese for everyone. You can, in fact, use the Tau cheese too. Hell, I'm sure Games Workshop is thrilled when we do. That is the entire idea behind their new marketing plan.

Tau gun lines have never been easy and they are wicked hard now. Can they be beaten? Sure. I beat one just the other day and it was eerie in its similarity of design to the one discussed here. I had, in fact, played that same list just one weekend before at a different tournament and it damn near tabled me. The difference was simply my choosing not to put much on the table. I dropped and popped. The game reversed and I damn near tabled him. It wasn't even close. Like it or not, we have to adapt to the crazy META garbage possible. Tau who run that gun line are taking a hideous chance. They can't handle multiple Knights fast enough nor can they deal adequately with Drop Pods or Deep Strike armies that come in with nasty fire or flamers (for the Fire Warriors). They have built a one trick pony and it has zero flexibility for dealing with things which are coming to dominate the META.

People who decry and bemoan tournaments are missing a larger point. I'm bringing it up now because tournaments help self correct against one trick ponies built on such devastating redundancy. A META driven by tournaments tends to liquidate one trick ponies. They might do fine in pick up games against regular opponents, but they do very poorly in events where people are planning for certain key builds. The current builds people plan for are 1. gun lines (like that the Tau create) and 2. Knights and/or Lords of War. If you can't handle these two builds, you will get massacred at tournaments where you are almost certain to see such armies in two out of three of your match ups. I know this is a little tangent, but it bears exploring because the community of broader lists and harsh realities tends to reign in lists like the one mentioned here.

Returning to your comments, it has been my experience that it is the people who say "screw you guys I'm going home" that end up having a harder time getting games. It rarely has the effect of shaming or forcing your would be opponent into changing his/her list. More often than not they just laugh about your cowardice after you leave and have a long discussion about the cheese they saw in YOUR list. Make no mistake, the cheese was there too. People seem entirely blind to their own cheese while remaining ever vigilante in their mission to spot it in the lists of others. That is the idiotic nature of making such things "subjective" rather than having a game that was balanced in the first place. People who show up to play and who play whomever shows up get games. That is the long and the short of it. People who throw a fit or politely just decline games find they get less games.

[DarkLink]

As I stated above, I feel my balanced Dark Eldar have a good chance to win this battle - venoms @ 36.1" target crisis suits, Dark lances at 36.1" target tetras & broadsides.

Ummm... Dark Lances have a 36" range. Tau eat DE alive. It's not even a game. You can do the fortuned Beastpack, though.

[clever handle]

sorry - missed this bit 36.1" after nightshields=) This is about the only army they're effective against - unless you want to sit @ 24" to trade single shots out of the raiders from the passengers, never considered putting any upgrades on my raiders before but this list is making me rethink my stance.

Fortuned Beasts get shredded like space marines - they have to there to do any damage & once they cross into that 30" bubble, the broadsides become twice as effective as they get to add the SMS shots.

@40Kgamer - what other army can bring this volume of firepower and reslience in a single CAD? The only way AM can do this is with many autocannon heavy weapons squads and those fold like a paper napkin; Eldar CAN do it if they bring 8-9 wave serpents & continue to roll 6's for their serpent shield, eldar don't have access to the massive amounts of interceptor so are significantly more susceptible to deepstriking and if they're brining that number of wave serpents they've really got nothing to deal with AV14. Min-max wave serpents rings in at 1650 points with NO serpent upgrades taking (6) dire avengers & (3) banshees for the cheapest passenger units possible, "upgrading" one or two units of banshees to fire dragons to bust AV14 restricts HQ's & provides obvious target priority

[Caitsidhe]

sorry - missed this bit [I]@40Kgamer - what other army can bring this volume of firepower and reslience in a single CAD? The only way AM can do this is with many autocannon heavy weapons squads and those fold like a paper napkin; Eldar CAN do it if they bring 8-9 wave serpents & continue to roll 6's for their serpent shield, eldar don't have access to the massive amounts of interceptor so are significantly more susceptible to deepstriking and if they're brining that number of wave serpents they've really got nothing to deal with AV14. Min-max wave serpents rings in at 1650 points with NO serpent upgrades taking (6) dire avengers & (3) banshees for the cheapest passenger units possible, "upgrading" one or two units of banshees to fire dragons to bust AV14 restricts HQ's & provides obvious target priority

I'm not 40K-gamer, obviously, but I thought I would take a stab at this. First f all, AM does far better than this. They don't have to approximate exactly the STR and volume of shots. They can spam a volume of shots with higher strength and larger blasts. I've fought AM (although I prefer to just call them Guard still) that could put down 20+ strength 8-10 Large blasts per Turn. Granted, this was a list tuned to the absolute hardest, but it follows the same logic as the Tau one. Variations on it had it spamming even more smaller blasts and many of them also ignored cover or had other crazy benefits. When it comes to firing for effect, the AM is just as nasty as the Tau (they just get there with a different look).

Then there are a huge number of variations based on spamming Dreads, Gravity Guns, and small arms. If you include Mortis Pattern Dreads and various other gun batteries and/or artillery you can supercharge any Space Marine army (as well as AM). Of course we cannot leave off the high strength spam special guest stars of this Edition, i.e. the bugs. The volume of fire provided by FMC shooting batteries which can in turn be backed up by squads of three MC gun batteries bearing down on opponents at high speed also bear special mention. Poison spam from Dark Eldar may not have quite the range and power but it kills just as effectively. Those hideous little mini-boats put down obscene amounts of power and you can spam them like there is no tomorrow. It only takes a few of them to survive (or go first) and you can blast most of the spamming shots from Tau off the table. Crisis Suits are, after all, not armor nor are any Riptides. Nothing says "up yours" to what look like giant robots than spammed poison shots.

While I agree that the specificity of Tau high STR volume seems hard to match shot per shot, you don't have to do that. You only have to match it for results and that isn't that hard to do. I don't begrudge the Tau players their cheese anymore because we now all live on the Moon and it appears the legends of it being made of green cheese are true.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This is why none of my Tau lists are built around a gunline, because A, it's unimaginative and dull, and B, that's not how they're meant to fight in the fluff anyway.

Historically I always play very aggressive lists that apply pressure turn one and start charging up the field, before Outflankers come in from the sides and surround my opponent. For anything less than a very aggressive opponent, it's terrifying seeing Tau being in your face Turn 3, unloading into your forces point-blank. Charging units with Riptides to finish them off is also very fun. It's always entertaining seeing someone setting up a Gunline, thinking we'll be trading shots from across the board all game...

Now I'm starting to trial Guard + Tau together, so I can finally run my Gue'vesa army. Tau section is a Farsight list that fights in the midfield and Outflanks into their Deployment, Guard hang back and hammer key targets with their heavy-handed firepower.

[DarkLink]

sorry - missed this bit 36.1" after nightshields=)

Nightshades don't extend the range of your guns. You mean 30.1". But Broadsides can still land a lot of hits snapfiring, and the Riptides will just tear you apart anyways.


Fortuned Beasts get shredded like space marines - they have to there to do any damage & once they cross into that 30" bubble, the broadsides become twice as effective as they get to add the SMS shots.

I'm not sure if you're entirely familiar with the shennanigans you can pull with a full beastpack. They were one of the nastiest armies in the game at the end of 6th for a reason, despite Tau's popularity.

[40kGamer]

QUOTE=clever handle;438948]@40Kgamer - what other army can bring this volume of firepower and reslience in a single CAD? The only way AM can do this is with many autocannon heavy weapons squads and those fold like a paper napkin; Eldar CAN do it if they bring 8-9 wave serpents & continue to roll 6's for their serpent shield, eldar don't have access to the massive amounts of interceptor so are significantly more susceptible to deepstriking and if they're brining that number of wave serpents they've really got nothing to deal with AV14. Min-max wave serpents rings in at 1650 points with NO serpent upgrades taking (6) dire avengers & (3) banshees for the cheapest passenger units possible, "upgrading" one or two units of banshees to fire dragons to bust AV14 restricts HQ's & provides obvious target priority[/QUOTE]

Caitsidhe addressed this earlier but I’ll add a little: S7 is not that statistically different from S6, both wound T4 on a 2+, both instakill T3 and neither are all that great vs vehicles… and Eldar are the masters of S6. Here’s an off the cuff 1850 Eldar list:

Spitirseer

5 x WG
1 x Serpent (TLSL)
5 x WG
1 x Serpent (TLSL)
3 x Jetbikes
4 x Jetbikes

5 x Dragons
1 x Serpent (TLSL)

6 x Swooping Hawks (Cause they’re cool!)
1 x Nightwing

3 units of 3 War Walkers (Either 2xSL or 1xSL/1xBL)

So in this list, depending upon how you load out the War Walkers you are running with 54-90 x S6 and 2-11 x S8 AP2 Lances, plus 3 x Serpent Shields.

The Wraithguard and Dragons murder vehicles/MCs within 12” and Hawks are one of the best harassment units in the game.

Let's not even get into the nasty gunlines that AM can build.


I'm not 40K-gamer, obviously.

Obviously… I smell like a wet dog and howl at the moon!

[clever handle]

Guard & Eldar really never give us that much trouble - as previously mentioned they don't have access to the large amounts of interceptor fire so reserves & deepstriking work very well, whereas against Tau... less than effective. Marine armies simply can't put out the volume of fire at range to be a threat, they also suffer from the same ability to be alpha-struck with reserves as these other two armies, and frankly grav guns get shut down when bogged down by low AV bodies - dark eldar troops & beast packs, cultists & spawn, orks, gribbly bugs, etc.

Either way, I don't want this to get too off topic & start discussing which army can build the best gunline, I'm here to figure out ways to circumvent the wall of missiles.

@Darklink - I know that lances don't effect MY range, consider sitting at TAU's effective 36.1" - we're saying the same thing. Sure, I'll lose (2) empty transports a turn from HBC riptides, that's the dark eldar's lot in life. Anyone who takes the ion accelerator has given me a huge boon. Vehicles target crisis suits as priority for instant death goodness, while staying the best of their ability out of range of broadsides - they all die like marines to lances, but poison kills riptides & crisis suits just as easily as marines so catching those mobile suits first is a matter of importance.

I'm very familiar with what beast packs "CAN" do. put the baron out front, drop some fortune & hope that they only shoot from that angle. Unfortunately suits can move and fire at ballistic skill, broadsides can move & use markerlights to get right back up there & as long as they can get an angle where the baron isn't up front you've got an average of 12 dead khymera per turn so tell me - how's that beast pack going to be effective? Its only saving grace is that if they're shooting it, they're NOT shooting the actual workhorses in this force - the raiders & venoms. Also, I think you underestimate my ability to roll two consecutive ones=)

[40kGamer]

Guard & Eldar really never give us that much trouble - as previously mentioned they don't have access to the large amounts of interceptor fire so reserves & deepstriking work very well, whereas against Tau... less than effective. Either way, I don't want this to get too off topic & start discussing which army can build the best gunline, I'm here to figure out ways to circumvent the wall of missiles.

Fair enough! Has anyone thought about hitting him over the head with 5 x Imperial Knights? :p

[This Dave]

Fair enough! Has anyone thought about hitting him over the head with 5 x Imperial Knights? :p

That was one of my first suggestions. :)

[DarkLink]

I meant that the beastpack is obscenely fast and can hide behind terrain, so the broadsides probably won't get to do much other than overwatch and one round of smart missiles, and just the crisis suits don't have that much of a punch... but if you're playing on a completely open table like it sounds like you are, you're doing it wrong anyways.

[40kGamer]

That was one of my first suggestions. :)

Whoops I skipped over that one! Great minds and all... :P It really is a good idea - shows a person how a themed army can not be all that fun to play against when it smacks you in the head! :D

[clever handle]

its not a completely open table in the STORE for the pick-up games, we actually have a fairly decent amount of LOS blocking terrain. Good luck hiding 15 models on 50mm round bases! I've said previously I honestly believe the dark eldar have all the tools necessary - if the player takes nightshields - to succeed against this army.

Eldar, I'm still not so sure of - wraithknights definitely are going to be effective here & with access to a ton of good buff & debuff powers I think they've got a decent chance of surviving the incoming fire.

Guard can sit back & trade shots, however I do think they'll struggle - and it will be almost literally the most boring game ever.

frankly I don't care about orks or bugs, but we haven't really discussed options for them at all; I'm not sure how daemons would fair either, I think slaaneshi stuff is fast enough & relatively cheap enough that it can cross the board, probably losing 50% of their numbers to the firepower but when they get there they'll tear it up.

Marines, well the answer does seem to be upgrade those heavy weapons to lascannons & sit back out of range. I do really think that drop pods is not the correct way to go as the turn you land you're reasonably looking at losing 20 space marines due to interceptor from the battlesuits & riptides.

Multiple imperial knights may work, but that's kind of a niche list & with the nerf to D-weapons I'm not convinced that they're all that great anymore for anything but survivability. I can confirm that one of our players has tried a 2x land raider crusader + (1) imperial knight build and hasn't found it effective - for whatever reason the knight just always seems to soak a tonne of firepower & then go down on overwatch=). We can't forget that this army construct is generally quite good at castling up & making use of supporting fire if necessary as their game-plan is generally "sit here and wait till I've crushed you before I move to claim objectives"

[Learn2Eel]

This is why none of my Tau lists are built around a gunline, because A, it's unimaginative and dull, and B, that's not how they're meant to fight in the fluff anyway.

I don't mind facing a Tau gun-line as it is a challenge, but oh yes the background/gameplay dissonance annoys me to no end. It's good Tau are so much more popular now with the new codex but I swear at least 80% of those new players have no idea what "Mont'ka" or "Kauyon" are. Tau don't believe in a static defence and are constantly adapting and mobile, that is what made them such a deadly foe in the Damocles Crusade. This is also why I think Darkstrider is awesome!

[Caitsidhe]

People tend to favor what works. They are very mercenary that way and I can hardly fault them for adapting to military efficiency in a military war game. The mechanics of 40K don't favor a highly mobile army. Not even the addition of the crazy, Candyland Maelstrom Missions overcomes the fact that the size of the battle field combined with the range of the weapons eliminates the need for a highly mobile force. The fact that a game is also limited to five to seven turns also factors in. A true mobile strike force works on attrition, i.e. the ability to move in and out to wear an opponent down. You get in, you hurt them, you get out. Repeat.

The game simply doesn't reward this in practical application and so people aren't going to try and pay it lip service. The closest thing the Tau have to this is the ability for their Suits to jump away in the Assault Phase, but since there isn't anywhere they can jump that is far enough away from being blasted... you get the point. Most Tau players pour on the one thing that they have going for them in practical application, i.e. volume of fire. I have fought a few Tau players who pay lip service to the ideas. I commend them and respect their effort. That isn't to say they did as well. Tau that don't shoot you off the board before you reach them lose in my experience. However, I am interested in hearing about some alternate tactics that have been successful. If you have some, get the word out and perhaps we will see some different builds.

[CoffeeGrunt]

My lists tend to orient around aggressively charging up the field and intimidating my opponent. It's often quite unexpected, and can be done with a few, very durable units and some distractions.


This is also why I think Darkstrider is awesome!

I run him Outflanking with 12 Fire Warriors. He can put a lot of hurt down on a arrival, even against MEQs with a little support! Also gets a Troops unit into their backfield, which is tough to do with Tau.

[Caitsidhe]

My lists tend to orient around aggressively charging up the field and intimidating my opponent. It's often quite unexpected, and can be done with a few, very durable units and some distractions.



I run him Outflanking with 12 Fire Warriors. He can put a lot of hurt down on a arrival, even against MEQs with a little support! Also gets a Troops unit into their backfield, which is tough to do with Tau.


Well give us a list and highlight the durable options. I'm not arguing with you. I'm not a Tau player so I lack the credentials to do so. I'm saying you need to be specific so people know what you are talking about. I've yet to run into a durable Tau unit that can do what you are talking about. I don't doubt they exist but clearly I'm not running into them. I hate the volume of fire Tau utilize so I'm generally thrilled when they come at me aggressively because it means that I can reach them or that my own return fire can double tap.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Here's the list. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12-toJjvmwWPOr1-BkEcUtdnTR4yC3t3iXh08ABjotfA/edit?usp=sharing)

The Commander attaches to the Crisis Team and hammers light vehicles, while the Riptides charge shields and advance. The Hammerheads pick off key targets along with the Riptides. Where possible, I run Tetras instead of Pathfinders here.

The aim is simply to continue advancing with the Riptides to draw AT fire from the Hammerheads, while weakening their forces enough that the Outflankers have little to worry about.

[This Dave]

Here's the list. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12-toJjvmwWPOr1-BkEcUtdnTR4yC3t3iXh08ABjotfA/edit?usp=sharing)

The Commander attaches to the Crisis Team and hammers light vehicles, while the Riptides charge shields and advance. The Hammerheads pick off key targets along with the Riptides. Where possible, I run Tetras instead of Pathfinders here.

The aim is simply to continue advancing with the Riptides to draw AT fire from the Hammerheads, while weakening their forces enough that the Outflankers have little to worry about.

That's actually a lot more doable with the new Tau codex than before. It used to be if you god close with Tau you'd get bum rushed. Now with the overlapping Overwatch it's not a bat tactic.

[Caitsidhe]

That's actually a lot more doable with the new Tau codex than before. It used to be if you god close with Tau you'd get bum rushed. Now with the overlapping Overwatch it's not a bat tactic.

It is more doable in this edition, but I see why I don't run into it. I'm a CSM player and have access to Dirge caster. I rarely fear Overwatch. For this tactic to work on me it would key on eliminating my vehicles entirely before I act and that would just draw a lot of fire away from my more dangerous units. I'll have to suggest this list for experimentation to some of my Tau opponents though and see how they fare with it.

[Cleon]

If you just want to take the list apart to show how unfun it is to face then how about an unbound list of 30 squads of 3 Death company? (50 points left for weapon upgrades or maybe an attack bike) He'll waste most of his firepower on overkill and won't stop enough of them.

[clever handle]

If you just want to take the list apart to show how unfun it is to face then how about an unbound list of 30 squads of 3 Death company? (50 points left for weapon upgrades or maybe an attack bike) He'll waste most of his firepower on overkill and won't stop enough of them.

that's not the goal. If I were to do that the simple answer is to enforce a list swap, where he can see how totally unfun it is to play against (he has got the memo... we're not exactly subtle when we feel someone's abusing the gentleman's agreement of fun play at the FLGS). the goal is to learn how to beat the list with a balanced list that wont be crippled when facing other armies.

[Caitsidhe]

that's not the goal. If I were to do that the simple answer is to enforce a list swap, where he can see how totally unfun it is to play against (he has got the memo... we're not exactly subtle when we feel someone's abusing the gentleman's agreement of fun play at the FLGS). the goal is to learn how to beat the list with a balanced list that wont be crippled when facing other armies.

Drop & Pop. That is how you do it. You can build balanced Drop & Pop lists that are good against a wide variety of lists. Drop Pod armies are all the rage right now too since they are Objective Secured and you can land them at objectives with near pinpoint accuracy. You are NEVER going to beat Tau at their own game. You aren't going to beat them in a shooting war. You are unlikely to beat them them with an assault army... "into the valley rode the three hundred"... so your best bet if you want to be an all comer's type of army is some variation of Drop & Pop.

- - - Updated - - -

My previous comments being said, I don't think the guy is violating any gentleman's agreement. He is playing the game and using the tools Tau get. That's it.

[clever handle]

drop pods work great for marines & only marines and only if you're prepared to lose easily 15-20 marines the turn they arrive, before you get to shoot your own guns to the interceptor fire as you pile out of the pods - assuming the Tau player uses all his interceptor because, why wouldn't he? If he doesn't, his models wont get to shoot, whereas if he does he'll get to remove more of your models than you will of his, and next turn when he can't shoot he'll be able to move & run away from you to put distance between the forces.

How does that help anyone else? How does a chaos army defeat them? Daemons? Orks? Battle Sisters :p ?

Regarding any type of gentleman's agreement - this is up to player & gaming group taste. 1/2 the respondees to this thread have indicated that the list is probably a bit on the hard side for pickup games, I can guarantee you it is no FUN to play against, beyond that I have no opinion, except that I want to beat it with a well balanced list.

[Caitsidhe]

drop pods work great for marines & only marines and only if you're prepared to lose easily 15-20 marines the turn they arrive, before you get to shoot your own guns to the interceptor fire as you pile out of the pods - assuming the Tau player uses all his interceptor because, why wouldn't he? If he doesn't, his models wont get to shoot, whereas if he does he'll get to remove more of your models than you will of his, and next turn when he can't shoot he'll be able to move & run away from you to put distance between the forces.

Excuse the hyperbole, but cry me a river. There are other Drop & Pop (I know because I'm CSM and do it all the time without Drop Pods). The Interceptor fire isn't too awful and depending on how you land you can get cover from some of it (not the stuff that ignore covers obviously), and Marker Lights don't work in your turn so some of these guys aren't that accurate to begin with. Look, if you want a REAL discussion of how to beat the army, we can do that. If you are just looking for confirmation that it is "too hard" you are talking to the wrong guy. We all have to fight that list. It isn't rare. It is pretty damn common. Are you going to get shot up? Yes. What else is new. You are playing Tau.


How does that help anyone else? How does a chaos army defeat them? Daemons? Orks? Battle Sisters :p ?

I cover this above. I am a Chaos army. I can Drop & Pop too. Most people can. More and more I don't think you are asking honest questions. You are trying to angle this conversation so people agree with you and you can go to this guy and say, "look the interwebs says you are playing too hard a list." I call serious B.S. on that. You can have all the Drop & Pop you want. That is what 7th Edition is all about. Anyone and everyone can put whatever they want into their list. Can you play pure sisters against that army? No. I think you will get your butt handed to you. Guess what? That isn't the Tau player's problem. You are the one choosing to play a list that gets its butt handed to them by nearly EVERYONE. Mix those gals up with someone who helps cover their glaring weaknesses. If this was an earlier edition, you might have a case. In 7th Edition, you just sound like someone making excuses. All the tools are there if you choose to go get them as your Tau player obviously has done. He built that army. It isn't cheap. You can do the same.


Regarding any type of gentleman's agreement - this is up to player & gaming group taste. 1/2 the respondees to this thread have indicated that the list is probably a bit on the hard side for pickup games, I can guarantee you it is no FUN to play against, beyond that I have no opinion, except that I want to beat it with a well balanced list.

I have played against it. You and I measure fun differently. I play for the challenge. As my friend Kerstan will tell you, I buy a new video game, set the difficulty at maximum and play it there. I don't understand walking through it as the lower levels. To me the fun in a strategy game is to play it. I don't measure my fun in guaranteed wins or how long it takes. In general, the harder it is for me or the more often I get beat by someone the more I want to play them. My ultimate measure is myself and what I can do and what I can't do. There is a point where you discern it is impossible to win and at that point I walk away. I don't do no win scenarios. There has to be a ghost of a chance to be worth my time. The army you are describing is no where near a no win scenario.

Your opponent isn't responsible for you fun. I'm sick to death of that attitude. It is childish and unprofessional. Your opponent is responsible for being polite, not cheating, and being a fun guy/gal to hang out with. They should be the kind of person with whom it is fun to play against win or lose. That is their responsibility. Let's tell the truth and shame the devil. What you really want is for your opponent to gut his list so you can win. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror? I would be nauseous. It would be like admitting to one's self that I just can't hack it. It would be like learning Chess from your parent and realizing that they have been letting you win but WANTING them to continue doing that. I am embarrassed for people when I hear them talking like that.

It all comes down to why you play. If you want guaranteed fairness in OUTCOMES rather than opportunity, buy yourself a copy of Candyland. Everyone can get a fake feeling of accomplishment when they "win" the game. The number of wins and losses you get will be about equal over time. If you play the game for the story and immersion, it shouldn't matter if your story has a happy or unhappy ending. If you play the game for the challenge, you should be overjoyed by a hard puzzle to solve. I know I'm being a "nutter" right now and I standing on my little box in the park, but this stuff needs to be said. The tools exist to beat the crud out of the one trick pony list you describe. I know because I play against that damn list. The fact that you don't want to avail yourself of the tools is YOUR failing, not your opponent's. I find it sickening to hear you cast your opponent as the poor sportsman when you aren't even bringing your A-Game.

[marful]

My previous comments being said, I don't think the guy is violating any gentleman's agreement. He is playing the game and using the tools Tau get. That's it.
This pretty much is my feelings on the matter as well.

Several viable strategies and means to deal with this list have been suggested. Every one gets shot down for some reason or another. 58 x S7 shots isn't even that bad. I'd rather face that from Tau then what I routinely face from Eldar.


What I normally face off against:
2 units of 3 warwalkers with dual scatter lasers
2 Wave Serpents with scatter lasers
1 Falcon
5 Fire Dragons + Exarch
2 Squads of 9 Dire Avengers + Exarch
9 Swooping Hawks + Exarch
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Farseer
Autarch on jetbike with MotLG + Firesaber


The Volume of Fire from this army:

56 x S6 Shots @ 36"
2D6+2 S7 Shots @ 60"
7 x S8 Shots 36"+
30 x S3 Shots 24"
40 x S4 Bladestorm Shots @ 18"
6 x S8 Melta Shots @ 12"

All of this is at BS4 or higher. Doesn't crumple in close combat and is superior when dealing with MEQ. Throw in the ability to cast Invisibility on a unit and the high mobility.

And this isn't even close to a "cheesy" Eldar Army but a rather run of the mill one.

[40kGamer]

Drop & Pop. That is how you do it.

As you mentioned Chaos and others can do this but man full drop pod armies rock at the moment... and loosing 15-20 marines at landing (if you actually loose that many) is a small price to pay for being into the tau lines. You can always land a couple deathwinds for giggles too... fun for the whole family!


Several viable strategies and means to deal with this list have been suggested. Every one gets shot down for some reason or another. 58 x S7 shots isn't even that bad. I'd rather face that from Tau then what I routinely face from Eldar. ... And this isn't even close to a "cheesy" Eldar Army but a rather run of the mill one.

Not far off from the off the cuff list I posted earlier and you're correct, it can get a lot cheesier. Eldar pump out S6-S8 like crazy! :)

[clever handle]

@Caitside
after your first paragraph I stopped reading as none of it is relevant to the discussion.

Where are you getting chaos drop pods in a bound list? Taking the POS dreadclaws that arrive like flyers T2, then can "land" so you can disembark T3? great idea! let me pay 60ppm for some of those... with the new jink it actually may be a viable tactic and I happen to own a few but by not being effective until Turn 3 I just really struggle with the idea. I'm not saying I'm not open to trying it but frankly those dreadclaws have been on the shelf since I assembled them several years ago.

Re: The number of casualties I list is statistical average without the use of markerlights from the T4 models alone, so there really is no hyperbole in my post. The crisis suits count for an average of 5, the broadsides average another 10 between their TL MP & TL SMS. That's 15 marines and we haven't even considered the fusion suits, riptides, or commander. I can do the math for you here if you're incapable of multiplying fractions.

So to drop pods (the only idea I've "shot down") - you drop (4) pods turn one and with that bring 40 marines. Lose 15 - more than 25% of what you've brought. Lets assume all your surviving marines are somehow in rapidfire of crisis suits, and lets also assume you're only packing plasma for special weapons AND you didn't lose any of your special weapons. Lets also assume the tau player isn't full retard & as such has at least a 5+ coversave before going to ground. You've got 25 marines left, and (4) plasma guns. Rapid fire from 21 bolters - averages 4-2/3 wounds on crisis suits - the (8) plasma shots averages (3) wounds. So YAY! you managed to kill (3) crisis suits! That's one unit! Next turn, the surviving battlesuits move away from you as fast as they can since they can't shoot anyways & prepare themselves to fire interceptor at the next marines to drop down who are now coming in piece-meal. The Tau are still first strike engaging you on their own terms.

That doesn't sound like a great strategy to me based simply on averages. Your math may vary however, or maybe I'm missing something. How about instead of simply telling me I'm wrong you attempt to illustrate HOW I'm wrong.


Re: "fun" "whose doing it wrong" "whatever" - I said I don't enjoy playing against the list. I also have commented that I'm not interested in trashing the player or the style and more interested in discussing list concepts and specific tactics to beat the list. I never said the guy was doing anything more than bringing a list that is more competitive than where our community plays. If that idea offends you, well I'm not sorry. Grow up. The first several posts back & forth had some good discussion & a good exchange of ideas. Coffeegrunt & others brought some good ideas that I acknowledged & said I'd try out. I felt there was some good back & forth. We chatted about options for a variety of the armies I mentioned were struggling. You however, have contributed "drop pods and if you don't like it you're wrong - and you're wrong anyways because you don't have fun the way I do." Grow up.

@Marful,

I think that list has a good chance due to the large volume of firepower it can bring at range - it's far more mobile than the Tau force isn't outranged, the warwalkers can sit outside of 36", walk into range, unload their firepower and then battle-focus a minimum of 1" away to put themselves back out of range of the Tau firepower. Coupled with the farseer throwing out guide & fortune on the warwalker units you've got some great survivability. The autarc is risky however. He's a good counterstrike unit against the deepstriking suits but if played aggressively he's simply going to get markerlighted & a single unit's shooting will destroy him, best not to let him be your warlord in this match up I think...

Overall however, I don't find that list as intimidating. The anti AV14 needs to get close to be effective - except for the crimson hunter, he definitely has alpha strike potential, but after that is an AV10 flyer so even snapshot bolters are a potential threat. I think the other big reason is that S6 is just not as scary to vehicles as S7 (though just as scary to T4 models once they're disembarked!)

[Caitsidhe]

@Caitside
after your first paragraph I stopped reading as none of it is relevant to the discussion.

It is very relevant and we both know you read it to the end. To quote The Princess Bride, "we are men of action; lies do not become us."


Where are you getting chaos drop pods in a bound list?

Who needs Drop Pods with CSM? I do it with Obliterators and Termicide Units. Obliterators are the best buy because they can manifest the correct weapon for the job whether you are liquidating Fire Warriors in cover or nuking Armour, or vaporizing suits. Termicide units are still useful, although not as necessary with 7th Edition list building options. It is easy to get more and more Obliterators and be Battle Forged with Combined Arms detachments.


Taking the POS dreadclaws that arrive like flyers T2, then can "land" so you can disembark T3? great idea! let me pay 60ppm for some of those... with the new jink it actually may be a viable tactic and I happen to own a few but by not being effective until Turn 3 I just really struggle with the idea. I'm not saying I'm not open to trying it but frankly those dreadclaws have been on the shelf since I assembled them several years ago.

Re: The number of casualties I list is statistical average without the use of markerlights from the T4 models alone, so there really is no hyperbole in my post. The crisis suits count for an average of 5, the broadsides average another 10 between their TL MP & TL SMS. That's 15 marines and we haven't even considered the fusion suits, riptides, or commander. I can do the math for you here if you're incapable of multiplying fractions.

We agree; the Dreadclaw is a POS. Why you would even assume I was talking about one baffles me. Nothing prevents me from also taking an Allied Detachment of Marines (I can say they are recently Fallen) and put them in a standard Drop Pod. I don't think you really understand how wide your current 7th Edition options are. There is no limit on your options except that which you decide to apply.


So to drop pods (the only idea I've "shot down") - you drop (4) pods turn one and with that bring 40 marines. Lose 15 - more than 25% of what you've brought. Lets assume all your surviving marines are somehow in rapidfire of crisis suits, and lets also assume you're only packing plasma for special weapons AND you didn't lose any of your special weapons. Lets also assume the tau player isn't full retard & as such has at least a 5+ coversave before going to ground. You've got 25 marines left, and (4) plasma guns. Rapid fire from 21 bolters - averages 4-2/3 wounds on crisis suits - the (8) plasma shots averages (3) wounds. So YAY! you managed to kill (3) crisis suits! That's one unit! Next turn, the surviving battlesuits move away from you as fast as they can since they can't shoot anyways & prepare themselves to fire interceptor at the next marines to drop down who are now coming in piece-meal. The Tau are still first strike engaging you on their own terms.

In 6th and now 7th Edition the gun is king. You better well adapt and wrap your mind around that fact. The Tau and Eldar are really good with them. However, since I regularly play lists like the one you are talking about, you can't pull my leg. Playing on Tau terms is letting them shoot the crud out of you while you try to close or foolishly trying to wing a long range gun battle with them (unless you are also Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard). Dropping on them and popping them, concentrating your fire on key targets to ensure important kills (in this case the Crisis Suits) will give you the results that you want. I know because that is what I'm forced to do. The fact that you don't want to accept it isn't really my problem and it is certainly not your opponent's problem.


That doesn't sound like a great strategy to me based simply on averages. Your math may vary however, or maybe I'm missing something. How about instead of simply telling me I'm wrong you attempt to illustrate HOW I'm wrong.

First we count up how many units he has with Interceptor (and remember that if he uses it those weapons will not be firing again on his turn). Then we look at the Ballistic Skill, Cover, and how many of those weapons ignore it. Then you look at just how many of your units are coming in at the same time preventing him from being able to engage them all. The Tau player will not be able to kill everyone or even badly hurt everyone. The option will be to concentrate on one unit or spread it around. Doing so will, more often than not, mean less accurate shooting than what they would have gotten with the Marker Lights on their own turn. Doesn't that sound better? Wouldn't you rather get shot up by that junk when they don't get to use Marker Lights, and then have them unable to fire on their following turn? You don't see how that is better for you?

You created this thread under the "guise" of wanting to get suggestions on how to handle it. It is clear that wasn't really your intention. You want to argue about how broken this list is and how unfair it is in fact. You should have been honest about it. We can smell this sort of thing you know. The moment someone starts discarding every suggesting they get it becomes clear you had your mind made up from the start and your real purpose was different than you said. That isn't cool.



Re: "fun" "whose doing it wrong" "whatever" - I said I don't enjoy playing against the list.

Then don't. That is your solution. I'm sure he wont' miss you. :D If you are right, perhaps he won't get any games. I doubt that though. If that were a viable option you and your buddies whom you claim are all frustrated and angry would have already done it. If you don't want to play it because you refuse to make the changes you need to play it effectively, just don't... but be honest enough with yourself to admit it is you that is "crying off" as the Gunslinger would say.


I also have commented that I'm not interested in trashing the player or the style and more interested in discussing list concepts and specific tactics to beat the list. I never said the guy was doing anything more than bringing a list that is more competitive than where our community plays.

I've already addressed this but no, that isn't the case. You have been getting suggestions. You just don't like them and clearly never really had an interest in getting them. I think you expected all of us to be more sympathetic. I'm sure some of us are, but a lot of us (who play against the same kinds of armies) are not. We know there is no issue. As to saying you aren't interested in trashing the player, that is also false. You are trashing him in very polite words. You keep saying he si violating the "gentleman's contract" as YOU define it. That means you are saying he is no gentleman. He is the beast. He is "that" guy. Saying it nicely doesn't change the meaning of your inference and all of us damn well know it.


If that idea offends you, well I'm not sorry. Grow up. The first several posts back & forth had some good discussion & a good exchange of ideas. Coffeegrunt & others brought some good ideas that I acknowledged & said I'd try out. I felt there was some good back & forth. We chatted about options for a variety of the armies I mentioned were struggling. You however, have contributed "drop pods and if you don't like it you're wrong - and you're wrong anyways because you don't have fun the way I do." Grow up.

I mentioned Drop Pods (and still think they are the best option via allies if you don't have them innate) but my key words were DROP & POP. How you manage this is your own affair but their are lots of tools out there. It is the biggest weakness Tau armies have. I prefer not to grow up. Peter Pan has always been my idol.

[clever handle]

read it to the end after my post. One of the edits was going to address your comment about "unprofessional conduct" in a hobby but I thought the better of it.

Dropping in oblits & terminators is absolutely going to be more effective than dropping in dudes with a 3+ save. Problem is that you weren't very descriptive as to what you meant, you've elaborated now & its much more clear =)
Reasonably though, if you drop in with a 2+ save you're going to take half as many wounds from interceptor fire - which still means you're going to take seven or 8 unsaved wounds based on unmarkerlighted averages assuming they go full interceptor. That's enough to gank a 3-man obliterator squad completely, or two termicide squads, of course they don't HAVE to completely remove those squads to drastically reduce their firepower - and don't forget that next turn you're very vulnerable to a charged ion accelerator shot.

Of course, since we're talking chaos now you've got some other items on the board which means you're going to discourage the TAU player from going full interceptor, or the guys on the board will be able to close the ground - but if you've played safe turn one you're probably still out of range for a follow up charge.


Regarding our community - you know nothing about it, so don't presume to. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. Maybe I'm here trying to find some tips we haven't tried to encourage the rest of our players to keep trying & show them that it isn't all hopeless. You simply don't know. Regarding the idea of the gentleman's agreement - I didn't bring it up in this thread, someone else did & I rejected the idea out of hand when it was raised. I never said anybody is doing anything "wrong" but rather we aren't having fun. It is an elective hobby & for us to elect to participate we need to get some form of reward - you said yourself that if you feel a situation is no win you'll walk away. Maybe that's the point of this thread? Maybe I'm trying to prevent just that in my own little microcosm of the world.

So far I have stated that two of the suggested lists weren't effective - I illustrated why DROP PODS were not effective in my last reply. The other list suggestion was green tide - we can pretty much discard that out of hand because green tide isn't an effective list & hasn't been for as long as I've been playing 40K. I castle deploy in a corner so that more than 2/3 of your army needs 3+ turns to be able to reach me. I shoot the closest boy mob until its a mangeable size, then target the next one. This list has no issue neutering a 30-boy squad per turn - easily killing off 20+ orks so that the remaining 10 can be dealt with using overwatch / bounced in combat (yes a riptide will bounce 10 boys if you've already killed the nob!). Beyond these two lists I really don't get why you feel I've been overly dismissive, I specifically stated I'd try changing up my list to include lascannons - either on havocs, or on dreadnoughts; discussed modifying my dark eldar to include a bunch of upgrades I had previously considered to be wastes of points, and commented that the proposed eldar armies look to be quite effective at dealing with this farsight enclave. To me, that doesn't seem dismissive - you know, accepting three of the proposed solutions as potentially viable and only explicitly rejecting two of them out of hand, and then only because you can demonstrate mathematically that they are flawed.

[marful]

Overall however, I don't find that list as intimidating. The anti AV14 needs to get close to be effective - except for the crimson hunter, he definitely has alpha strike potential, but after that is an AV10 flyer so even snapshot bolters are a potential threat. I think the other big reason is that S6 is just not as scary to vehicles as S7 (though just as scary to T4 models once they're disembarked!)
Why even mention AV 14? S7 can't touch AV 14 anyways. And everything that is AV13 has 12 or less on the sides making S6 just fine. S7 s only scary to you.


Lets do the mathhammertimelolzguitarriff...

vs MEQ
S7 BS3 Shots have a 27.778% chance of killing a marine.
S6 BS4 Shots have a 37.037% chance of killing a marine.

vs Vehicles
S7 BS3 vs AV10.....33.334% for Hullpoint, 25% for Pen.
S7 BS3 vs AV11.....25.000% for Hullpoint, 16.667% for Pen.
S7 BS3 vs AV12.....16.667% for Hullpoint, 08.334% for Pen.

S6 BS4 vs AV10.....33.334% for Hullpoint, 22.223% for Pen.
S6 BS4 vs AV11.....22.223% for Hullpoint, 11.113% for Pen.
S6 BS4 vs AV12.....11.112% for Hullpoint, 0.0% for Pen.



The actual number of models that can possibly be on the board where the distinction between S6 and S7 is important is going to be very limited simply because there are only 4-5 non Lord of War vehicles in the game with an AV of 14. And everything except the Land Raider and Monolith have much lower armor on side/rear.

Elder are the masters at this, particularly when they have access to Haywire and Distort as well as Lance weapons.


The fact is, the Tau list you described is not nasty at all. It is a completely normal Tau list. And the fact that when I pointed out what Eldar could do, you immediately dismissed this because "AV14", despite what you are complaining about not being able to effectively overcome AV14 either leads me to believe there is another reason for your question.

So your point is irrelevant, and Caitsidhe is affirmed in that your only intent seems to be to dismiss, arbitrarily, any legitimate attempt to address your initial question.

So, in the interest of science and/or lulz (inclusively or exclusively) , I ask: What answer are you really looking for?

Clearly you aren't looking for ways to beat a normal Tau 7th ed force.

[clever handle]

Hey, go back to the start of the thread. I specifically mentioned that in addition to the S7 firepower the TAU list has the ability to bring enough fusion to bear to threaten AV14 so as to ensure it isn't a viable solution. THAT is why I mention AV14 in response to your ELDAR list. Please read my post again as I was not dismissive of your eldar list but simply stated that it is less intimidating than the specific list I am discussing.

You're post is also disregarding bringing guard battle-tanks with AV14 & AV13 on the "at risk" facings. Those will stand up to eldar S6 & S7 firepower until you're able to shoot through their bubble-wrap & get your firedragons in close. But I'm not here to discuss whether your eldar list is "scarier" than my Tau list - I thanked you for your contribution and stated that I feel your proposed list is a good, balanced, counter list to the Tau list I'm here to discuss.

If you want to be cheeky I can too. I could point out that you're missing twin linking on those S7 shots - as fully 50% of them are twin linked; I could also point out that you're neglecting the impact of markerlights - of course you'd simpy counter that you didn't take into account the blessings from your farseer. See? This game is silly. Lets not do it.

Maybe we can agree that this thread has run its course - I've taken what I need to from it. Namely:
a) sit just outside TAU effective firepower range & trade shot for shot, this definitely can work but to be effective requires looking to "upgrade" those weapons to lascannons, weapons which have in the last two editions been considered bad investments OR for dark eldar, taking a niche upgrade that is pretty much only effective against this one list and adds significant cost to otherwise already very expensive paper airplanes.
b) deepstrike tough targets & hope you survive the interceptor fire - frankly I think the success of this is dubious, but if you're able to push threats who are already on the board it may be effective, for Chaos this may mean hiding a maulerfiend behind LOS blocking terrain in the center of the table while you deepstrike obliterators & terminators, for marines this means committing to a drop pod force... however I feel I've adequately illustrated why that tactic for marines has the potential to fail horribly; and finally
c) an offshoot of (a) that only works for eldar - sit literally on the edge of range & use battle focus with units of warwalkers to step in & out of range.

[marful]

Over Half of the S6 spam from elder is twin-linked @ BS4.

Then there is the unit of Swooping hawks, each with haywire grenades.
The 5 shots of BS4 melta from the Fire Dragons +2 Shots of BS5 from the exarch.
Then there are the bright lances...


The distinctions you are drawing are arbitrary. If Tau are going Missile Pod Spam like you described then they are sacrificing their melta output for this capability.


Again I reitterate: your only intent seems to be to dismiss, arbitrarily, any legitimate attempt to address your initial question.

The difficulties you are describing are completely common to the 6th-7th edition meta.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It is more doable in this edition, but I see why I don't run into it. I'm a CSM player and have access to Dirge caster. I rarely fear Overwatch. For this tactic to work on me it would key on eliminating my vehicles entirely before I act and that would just draw a lot of fire away from my more dangerous units. I'll have to suggest this list for experimentation to some of my Tau opponents though and see how they fare with it.

It isn't blindly charging up the field, you have to be wary of units that can put the hurt down and prioritise them. The Missile Pod team with Commander is effectively a self-sufficient unit intended to wreck 3 Transports per turn. Against stuff like Rhinos it's more than capable of that, and say, a Defiler or Soul Grinder rocks up, they can concentrate their S7 fire with re-rolls and Ignores Cover to wear it down fairly sharpish. The Riptides and Railhead can also fire in support.

It's all about pressure and target priority, knocking your opponent just off-balance enough that they're on the back foot, and few people expect that from Tau, so I've ended up with opponents hiding in the middle of their deployment from the Tau advance. It's not perfect and can fail against a very aggressive opponent, and was a much better 6th list due to holding all the Troops in Outflank and therefore out of anti-Infantry fire until they come on and can do something.

[clever handle]

Then there is the unit of Swooping hawks, each with haywire grenades.


they deepstrike, throw one grenade & are shot / assaulted off the board. They're not scary. If they're deployed, they still need to get into close combat with a high value target which means they're inside a range band for counter attack.



The 5 shots of BS4 melta from the Fire Dragons +2 Shots of BS5 from the exarch.


again, these guys need to come to you to be effective & that's the difference. They're not showing up & popping your tank the turn they hit the board, you have at least one turn to deal with these units before they're a threat as they're not deepstriking into effective range. This is a big difference and certainly isn't arbitrary.



Then there are the bright lances...


yup. As I said, they work - when they work, but suffer from "single shot" syndrome - I'm not trying to be dismissive here, but this is simply a fact. The crimson hunter has good first-strike potential & can be very effective at busting armor from range.



The distinctions you are drawing are arbitrary. If Tau are going Missile Pod Spam like you described then they are sacrificing their melta output for this capability.


They're not sacrificing melta output. Please refer to the posted armylist on the first page of this discussion. The list in question brings the aforementioned missiles on (3) units of suits and (2) units of broadsides. It also brings (3) solo suits c/w double fusion which function just the same as termicide units, and with all of this we still have around 650 points to add drones, riptides, etc.



Again I reitterate: your only intent seems to be to dismiss, arbitrarily, any legitimate attempt to address your initial question.


I don't feel I am. Maybe you do. If thats the way you feel then why are you bothering to continue this discussion? If you feel its fruitless & yet continue to engage, that speaks volumes about you doesn't it? Do you feel that the two proposed ideas I've shot down have merit? did you review the legitimate mathhammer from my post above in response to Caitsidhe where I pointed out specifically why these proposed lists were flawed as ideas? Do you find fault in my argument? If so please point it out, rather than saying I'm dismissing these ideas out of hand - I'm giving what I feel to be legitimate reasons for dismissing them & to date nobody has countered with an effective argument. Based on your inability to actually refute my arguments I would suggest that you are the one who is being arbitrarily dismissive.



The difficulties you are describing are completely common to the 6th-7th edition meta.
[/quote]

and that's why I'm looking for tips buddy. I've run a very successful Chaos Space marines list that has managed to do very well against the most common heavy hitter lists but this particular force has left me stumped. Tau, Eldar, flying circus, space marines of any type, you name it I've managed to do well. This particular Farsight Enclaves force is problematic.

[xsquidz]

What about a unit of 3 war walkers with dual bright lances? Outflank and then come in to wreck the Tau face. Good vs. vehicles and vs. T4 units with multiple wounds.

[clever handle]

I think that keeping the warwalkers on the table would be a better bet. You can keep outside of the 36" missile range by using battle-focus to jump in and out of range after shooting, and with a farseer to buff them with fortune you can greatly increase the survivability of those AV10 2HP walkers.

If you try to outflank them you're hoping to come on in a good spot, if you end up on the wrong side the Tau player will get a chance to fire interceptor at you before you can throw up fortune - a RR5++ is better than a 5++

@Coffeegrunt
you hit the nail on the head. My chaos has been running (2) maulerfiends, (2) rhino squads, juggerlord + spawn + bikes, in addition to support options including obliterators. Everything is, in theory, designed to be mobile, fast & aggressively in your face with (6) relatively durable and very quick, separate threats - each threat can tear a battlesuit unit apart if it manages to get there and if all goes according to plan the first wave assault - maulerfiends + Bikes + spawn hit turn 2, after the rhino squads have disembarked to soften up the enemy with two salvos of rapidfire. They can then charge into any combat turn 3, or continue to rapidfire. The problem I'm having is that the volume of firepower I'm walking into is more than capable of destroying both fiends and crippling at least one of those units on foot as soon as I step into range. Broadsides target the bikes & spawn since their SMS are useless against the AV12 fiends; the suits then address those beasts. With proper target priority, threats are mitigated wholely & efficiently. Target priority is one of the arts of 40K, really any table top wargame.

[xsquidz]

I think that keeping the warwalkers on the table would be a better bet. You can keep outside of the 36" missile range by using battle-focus to jump in and out of range after shooting, and with a farseer to buff them with fortune you can greatly increase the survivability of those AV10 2HP walkers.

If you try to outflank them you're hoping to come on in a good spot, if you end up on the wrong side the Tau player will get a chance to fire interceptor at you before you can throw up fortune - a RR5++ is better than a 5++

Yep depends on the game and the setup, plus who is going first. If I am going first I almost always leave them on the table to not lose a turn of their firepower. Plus you can hide them in a ruin for a better 4+ cover save and still try to fortune them or yeah, just move behind the cover after firing.

[40kGamer]

So to drop pods (the only idea I've "shot down") - you drop (4) pods turn one and with that bring 40 marines. Lose 15 - more than 25% of what you've brought.

At 1850 I would most likely be dropping 5-6 pods turn 1 and the bulk of the army. Atm Wolves do this even better than marines but we'll see how it goes after their new codex drops.

[Neophyte2012]

It is very relevant and we both know you read it to the end. To quote The Princess Bride, "we are men of action; lies do not become us."



Who needs Drop Pods with CSM? I do it with Obliterators and Termicide Units. Obliterators are the best buy because they can manifest the correct weapon for the job whether you are liquidating Fire Warriors in cover or nuking Armour, or vaporizing suits. Termicide units are still useful, although not as necessary with 7th Edition list building options. It is easy to get more and more Obliterators and be Battle Forged with Combined Arms detachments.



We agree; the Dreadclaw is a POS. Why you would even assume I was talking about one baffles me. Nothing prevents me from also taking an Allied Detachment of Marines (I can say they are recently Fallen) and put them in a standard Drop Pod. I don't think you really understand how wide your current 7th Edition options are. There is no limit on your options except that which you decide to apply.



In 6th and now 7th Edition the gun is king. You better well adapt and wrap your mind around that fact. The Tau and Eldar are really good with them. However, since I regularly play lists like the one you are talking about, you can't pull my leg. Playing on Tau terms is letting them shoot the crud out of you while you try to close or foolishly trying to wing a long range gun battle with them (unless you are also Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard). Dropping on them and popping them, concentrating your fire on key targets to ensure important kills (in this case the Crisis Suits) will give you the results that you want. I know because that is what I'm forced to do. The fact that you don't want to accept it isn't really my problem and it is certainly not your opponent's problem.



First we count up how many units he has with Interceptor (and remember that if he uses it those weapons will not be firing again on his turn). Then we look at the Ballistic Skill, Cover, and how many of those weapons ignore it. Then you look at just how many of your units are coming in at the same time preventing him from being able to engage them all. The Tau player will not be able to kill everyone or even badly hurt everyone. The option will be to concentrate on one unit or spread it around. Doing so will, more often than not, mean less accurate shooting than what they would have gotten with the Marker Lights on their own turn. Doesn't that sound better? Wouldn't you rather get shot up by that junk when they don't get to use Marker Lights, and then have them unable to fire on their following turn? You don't see how that is better for you?

You created this thread under the "guise" of wanting to get suggestions on how to handle it. It is clear that wasn't really your intention. You want to argue about how broken this list is and how unfair it is in fact. You should have been honest about it. We can smell this sort of thing you know. The moment someone starts discarding every suggesting they get it becomes clear you had your mind made up from the start and your real purpose was different than you said. That isn't cool.




Then don't. That is your solution. I'm sure he wont' miss you. :D If you are right, perhaps he won't get any games. I doubt that though. If that were a viable option you and your buddies whom you claim are all frustrated and angry would have already done it. If you don't want to play it because you refuse to make the changes you need to play it effectively, just don't... but be honest enough with yourself to admit it is you that is "crying off" as the Gunslinger would say.



I've already addressed this but no, that isn't the case. You have been getting suggestions. You just don't like them and clearly never really had an interest in getting them. I think you expected all of us to be more sympathetic. I'm sure some of us are, but a lot of us (who play against the same kinds of armies) are not. We know there is no issue. As to saying you aren't interested in trashing the player, that is also false. You are trashing him in very polite words. You keep saying he si violating the "gentleman's contract" as YOU define it. That means you are saying he is no gentleman. He is the beast. He is "that" guy. Saying it nicely doesn't change the meaning of your inference and all of us damn well know it.



I mentioned Drop Pods (and still think they are the best option via allies if you don't have them innate) but my key words were DROP & POP. How you manage this is your own affair but their are lots of tools out there. It is the biggest weakness Tau armies have. I prefer not to grow up. Peter Pan has always been my idol.

I am relatively new to the game and haven't played against Tau yet so bear with me if I made any mistakes.
I am concerning the same problem of overwhelming interceptor fire form the cheap as chips Tau EWO as I run my marines list consisting Droppod Liberian joined Sterngaurds or Inroclad Dreadnoughts, and StormRaven and Vindictors.
If the Riptide or two is the only unit arming EWO, my idear landed 9.1 inch away from them and using the Droppods themself to block the Riptdes' LOS by keeping the doors of the Pod facing Riptide shut, since the Codex does not state that "all" hatch must be blown open. So even with Target Lock, I don't believe the Riptide could blown the Pod with fusion and then IA the marines behind, as it is technically shooting the two weapons at the same time, after surviving the Interceptor, I would try to shoot at his other units (hammerhead, fire warriors, XV-88, etc).
If the Tau player is crazy enough to arm more than three battlesuit units (including XV-8s and/or XV-88s and/or Riptides ) with EWO, I would probablily try to place terrains to create choke points, and Drop most of the Pods empty to block the choke points as well as LOS, then foot slog or ride in Rhino through cover to get close to him.
I am a new player so I honestly hope the verteran players in this Forum could offer some comments to my thought. I also looking forward we could discuss tactical problems together

[clever handle]

you must open all the doors on the drop pod. They are considered to provide intervening model cover but not totally block line of site - whether you've made your drop pods with doors that open or with doors glued shut, they are assumed for gaming purposes to have opened completely. Due to this, the tactics you're suggesting are, unfortunately not valid.

If you're going with 'pods (or any type of deepstriking) against an interceptor heavy army - which may also include grey knights - you really need to overwhelm the army with threats. Either by dropping multiple units at a time - however, as I pointed out above you can reasonably expect to lose 15-20 marines against this type of tooled up list - so you're needing to rely upon some good saves, or hope you're necessary models don't get ganked before they shoot; OR by keeping strong threats on the table, ready to move into range T2 to capitalize on the impaired shooting as a result of overwatch - for loyalists this means bikes, or land raiders full of assault elements I believe.

[Caitsidhe]

@Coffeegrunt
you hit the nail on the head. My chaos has been running (2) maulerfiends, (2) rhino squads, juggerlord + spawn + bikes, in addition to support options including obliterators. Everything is, in theory, designed to be mobile, fast & aggressively in your face with (6) relatively durable and very quick, separate threats - each threat can tear a battlesuit unit apart if it manages to get there and if all goes according to plan the first wave assault - maulerfiends + Bikes + spawn hit turn 2, after the rhino squads have disembarked to soften up the enemy with two salvos of rapidfire. They can then charge into any combat turn 3, or continue to rapidfire. The problem I'm having is that the volume of firepower I'm walking into is more than capable of destroying both fiends and crippling at least one of those units on foot as soon as I step into range. Broadsides target the bikes & spawn since their SMS are useless against the AV12 fiends; the suits then address those beasts. With proper target priority, threats are mitigated wholely & efficiently. Target priority is one of the arts of 40K, really any table top wargame.

No wonder you are getting tabled. That is an absolutely AWFUL list. Don't blame your opponent for your own choices.

[clever handle]

thanks for your continued, amazing and insightful contributions. Maybe instead of being a douche, try to offer something helpful. Continuing to fail to do so only gives everyone the impression you're a troll with no ability to contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

Lets look at what's in that list:

obliterators? strong.
bikes? strong.
juggerlord? strong.
spawn? strong.
CSM in rhinos? well, they're not marines, but you need troops & cultists aren't worth the 50 points.
Maulerfiends? questionable, but cheap & effective threats when you can get them there. Strong against everything except walkers, MC's (faster than all these things too, so avoid them) & this Tau list.

Anyways. Looking forward to your next riveting contribution.

[Caitsidhe]

thanks for your continued, amazing and insightful contributions. Maybe instead of being a douche, try to offer something helpful. Continuing to fail to do so only gives everyone the impression you're a troll with no ability to contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

What do you want me to say? It is a bad list. In the current environment, about the only way you could have made it worse is by squeezing some Warp Talons and Mutilators in there for good measure. From the start, it has been my opinion that you just want validation that it is your opponent being a jerk by fielding something you find broken. That simply isn't the case. As I, and many, many others have told you there is nothing abnormal about his list. It is normal. I'm not sure why you asked for advice because you systematically disagree with and try to argue with everyone who has told you how to handle the issue. :D


Lets look at what's in that list:

Ok, let's do that. Let's tell the truth and shame the devil.


obliterators? strong.

Yes, the Obliterators are strong. How many are you putting in your list. Your post above makes it sound like they are a support compliment. Please elaborate, because if you are using less than six Obliterators you are using too few. Six Obliterators (all with the Mark of Nurgle) is the bare minimum I run with in the current environment. In short, Obliterators are not just support. They should be taking up a serious chunk of your points and figure into a massive part of your battle plan.


bikes? strong.

We disagree. In an age of high strength weapons (that have no trouble wounding Bikers) many of which that can ignore cover, Bikers are not Strong. They are support. Chaos Space Marines do not have the best Bikers (Toughness-6 not withstanding due to the Mark of Nurgle). How many points are you sinking into these? For my own part, I absolutely ADORE running into other CSM opponents who put Bikes on the board. As as CSM Player, you should know how vulnerable they are since we have one of the most effective Bike killing weapons.


juggerlord? strong.

Hardly. These guys aren't fit to to carry a properly equipped Daemon Prince's bags. I've actually got one modeled to be my Combat Familiar. The problem is that in the current environment your Juggernaut of Khorne will usually be dead before he makes contact (as you already know from your Tau experience). If/when it makes combat, it is going to lose to any one of a dozen more dangerous HQ choices. You and I define strong in a very different way.


spawn? strong.

Seriosuly? You are right; I have no idea what your local META is like but if Spawn are "strong" there, you need to widen your playing experience.


CSM in rhinos? well, they're not marines, but you need troops & cultists aren't worth the 50 points.

Heh. Most of the big contenders in competive tournaments disagree with you. Cultists are quite worth the points. Just think of them as a tax to get a Battle Forged list, i.e. a small fee to camp objectives and free up more of your points for units that can bring the pain. Oddly enough MOST of my Cultists survive every battle I fight because the rest of my army doing its job in no small part because of the points saved by Cultists. Cultists have only one job and that is to cheaply hold objectives in the rear. They do that very well.


Maulerfiends? questionable, but cheap & effective threats when you can get them there. Strong against everything except walkers, MC's (faster than all these things too, so avoid them) & this Tau list.

When you can get them there? :D I've never understood the logic of spending ANY points on a unit which struggles to get into combat (or do anything meaningful when it does). I'm not sure how cheap a minimum of 250pts is (since you say you run two). With 250pts I could put a wicked lot of death and destruction on the board that won't require me to put in a caveat saying "if I can get them there." :D For just a few points more you could use a Helbrute Formation that is guaranteed to get there and has a lot better options. I wouldn't use the Helbrutes either, but they are a much better buy than Maulerfiends.


Anyways. Looking forward to your next riveting contribution.

Why don't you tell us the exact points level of the game you are losing, give us your exact list and I will give you one of mine. It suffices to say that I'm not a Tau Player (I'm CSM just like you) and I would eat the list you mention without so much as a burp.

[clever handle]

I've told you exactly the points level, its in the title of the friggen thread....

Please post the list you'd use fat the points level given and lets see how it compares. Please note that if your answer is to play chaos by fielding 6+ obliterators, termicide and one+ daemon princes I don't need you to post the list. That's as informative as saying: "play eldar? take 9 wave serpents!"

I personally walked away from this thread once you failed to address any of the legitimate, math-driven arguments I made almost a month ago. I only returned to address a grievous error that someone posted today. I really have no idea why you've decided, one month later, to come back and still fail to provide any concrete discussion as to why the ideas you've proposed are valid, despite the flaws I demonstrated weeks ago.

[edit]
we do define strong in very different ways. I've been reading your 'fiend "discussion" and it has become evident why - first: chaos lords don't fight other champions, they cull the herd. Second, if you are stuck in a "made their points back" mentality then you're simply restricting your ability to excel; others have already explained why but you've dismissed them with flawed arguments. - suffice to say, your understanding of threats, and the value of a maulerfiend is jaded by your lack of understanding imposed by the "MYPB" mentality - I don't have to kill your shooting unit, I just need to prevent it from shooting, its that simple.

[Caitsidhe]

I've told you exactly the points level, its in the title of the friggen thread....

Please post the list you'd use fat the points level given and lets see how it compares. Please note that if your answer is to play chaos by fielding 6+ obliterators, termicide and one+ daemon princes I don't need you to post the list. That's as informative as saying: "play eldar? take 9 wave serpents!"

I personally walked away from this thread once you failed to address any of the legitimate, math-driven arguments I made almost a month ago. I only returned to address a grievous error that someone posted today. I really have no idea why you've decided, one month later, to come back and still fail to provide any concrete discussion as to why the ideas you've proposed are valid, despite the flaws I demonstrated weeks ago.

The problem is you don't like the response people have given you which is basically to change your list. The list you are using is ILL SUITED to deal with the current environment. That isn't your opponent's fault. That is YOUR issue. You have told us in your own words how you get taken apart. Now take the last few steps; I know you can do it. You get taken apart because your list isn't up to the task and never will be. Guns and volume shooting at high strength isn't going anywhere. You need to drop the damn Maulerfiends and replace them with Obliterators. They are camping two of your Heavy Slots. That is a start because Obliterators are ACES against Tau. They are also useful against anything else. They don't have a bad match up. Drop the Spawn. Drop the Jugger. That is just too many eggs in a successful assault basket. The most reliable way to reach assault is with Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes and/or Be'Lakor. Knights usually make it too. :D

[clever handle]

actually, despite being told to try green tide (completely different army!) and drop PODS, I've been very receptive to the suggestions to change my list - including mentioning taking lascannons, which have prevoiusly been considered a waste of points. I explicitly stated I would try it out and thanked that contributor (maybe you missed that post). Further, I discussed making changes to my own dark eldar army to include similar wargear that has previously been considered a waste of points. If you consider that failing to be receptive to changing my list, well I simply don't know what else you're after.

Here's the list I"m running at 1850:

Primary detachment (CSM):
Juggerlord - you know what he has=)

10CSM, rhino, meltaguns
10CSM, rhino, plasmaguns

5spawn
8 bikes, plasma, lightning claw + meltabombs
3 nurgle oblits
2 maulerfiends

Allied Detachment (Crimson Slaughter)
ML2, TA, Balestar sorc
10 cultists
(3) nurgle oblits

[Caitsidhe]

Here is the list I used most recently against a Tau army that actually puts out MORE firepower than the one you listed. I won my game at a tournament against it. It is a (1850) List with CSM as Primary and one Chaos Daemons Allied Detachment.

CSM-PRIMARY DETACHMENT:

HQ-
Be'lakor 350pts (Warlord)
Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Black Mace, Combat Familiar, Spell Familiar, Gift of Mutation, and Level-3 Psychic Mastery 360pts

Troops-
(10) Cultists w/9 Autogun Upgrades and a Shotgun for the Champion 61pts
(10) Cultists w/9 Autogun Upgrades and a Shotgun for the Champion 61pts

Heavy-
(2) Nurgle Marked Obliterators 152pts
(2) Nurgle Marked Obliterators 152pts
(2) Nurgle Marked Obliterators 152pts

Fast-
Helldrake w/Baleflamer 170pts

CHAOS DAEMONS-ALLIED DETACHMENT:

HQ-
Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Daemonic Flight, Warp-Forged Armour, Greater Rewards, Exalted Rewards 345pts

Troop-
(3) Nurglings 45pts

While I have lots of options, I normally take the Book of True Names for my Chaos Daemon Prince so she can improve Be'Lakor's invulnerable save to a 2+ while Be'lakor puts Invisibility on the Black Mace Daemon Prince. Biomancy as much as possible tends to round out the Disciplines but I also bring extra Daemon models just in case I have a match up where I need to use Malefic. A base of (9) Warp Charges is generally enough to bring in things without too much trouble. As all three Daemon Princes are Shrouded, any weapon which doesn't ignore cover can be avoided with a 2+ Jink save. For the record, I NEVER fly around, moving as a Jump Monstrous Creature instead and thus can get into assault almost always by Turn-2 and quite often on Turn-1 depending upon how aggressive or foolish my opponent might be. Eternal Warrior and Armourbane make Be'lakor my "go to guy" for killing Knights (usually softened up by Obliterators) as well as other hard cans. Stacking the Invisibility and Book of True Names tactically can cut back on a ton of other things. The Heldrake and Obliterators can Drop & Pop against certain armies very effectively. The Nurglings and Cultists camp objectives and given the rest of the army they rarely even get to shoot at opponents.

UNBOUND CAVEAT:

I could of course go Unbound and drop the Troop choices entirely, in which case I would just add another unit of (2) Obliterators. :D

[JMichael]

Only 58 shots?
My Eldar at 1850 have upwards of 96 Str6 and Str 7 shots at a minimum 36".
It is may Anti-Air (even with snap fire, that's a lot of dice) and anti-Light vehicle. I have some Fire Prisms and Fire Dragons to deal with Land Raider(s).
My opponents find it very hard to deal with as there is no one unit that is a huge priority. 5 Wave Serpents, 3 War Walkers, Vypers, and Warp Spiders. It is how i deal with MC armies and Rhino spam (also other Wave Serpent Spam).

[Caitsidhe]

Here's the list I"m running at 1850:
Primary detachment (CSM):
Juggerlord - you know what he has=)

Yes, unfortunately I do. I really think you should drop him. I don't see why you don't make Crimson Slaughter your Primary if you are really determined to go with a Chaos Lord juiced up. They can make a seriously mean one with a 2+/4+ save, horns, the works, etc. I'm guessing you just have a really good looking model of a Juggerlord and that makes it hard to give up. You don't have to give it up. Crimson Slaughter can make a Juggerlord too... only far better. I'll come back to this momentarily when we discuss the Spawn.


10CSM, rhino, meltaguns
10CSM, rhino, plasmaguns

Not awful. Not great. In my opinion, however, you can do better. Depending upon how you tweak out your Spawn for something else.... you might not even need them.


5spawn

These have to go. If you make Crimson Slaughter your Primary Detachment you take Possessed instead which are BETTER than Spawn in every way. You join your JuggerLord with those. They fight better and at least have the benefit of an Armour save which more than offsets the wound differential. I'm not really a fan of the route you are going with all the assault builds but IF you are going to do it you might as well do it more effectively.


8 bikes, plasma, lightning claw + meltabombs

This is a points sink. Three Bikers would be able to hit the key targets as well as eight. I personally like Termicide units of three better than Bikers but three Bikers equipped with Melta, Melta Bombs, and rigged to get in and out might work too.


3 nurgle oblits

I like that you have six Oblits total w/Allies but I'm not a fan of two units of (3). You need to break them up into units of (2) to give you at least one more Drop & Pop options. That necessitates dropping at least one of those Maulerfiends. Put all three (2) man units in your Primary Detachment and if you MUST take a Maulerfiend, put it as the one heavy in your allied unit.


2 maulerfiends

I don't like them; nuff said. I think the points are better spent on a Heldrake and other options.


Allied Detachment (Crimson Slaughter)
ML2, TA, Balestar sorc
10 cultists
(3) nurgle oblits

I already covered the Oblits. The Cultists are fine although I still think Crimson Slaughter is the better Primary based on what you are wanting to build. The Sorcerer is a waste of points. The Psychic Phase is pretty much all or nothing these days. You aren't going to have enough Warp Charges to get anything off short of being lucky. Moreover, that item is expensive and you really aren't going to be able to make much use of it. If you really want a Sorcerer (or two) take unmarked basic CSM Sorcerers ML-3 w/Spell Familiars and blow off that Discipline that isn't going to help you all that much anyway. All in all, your build doesn't really favor a strong Psychic Phase so I think you are better off without it in the first place. Take an allied Daemon Prince w/Wings and the Book of True names and guess what... your Crimson Slaughter Juggerlord now has a 2+/+2 save and his unit are at least a 3+ on their Invulnerable save.

[Caitsidhe]

Although I have my doubts about the efficacy of an assault based build like you desire, if I were to try it I would make the following changes:

PRIMARY DETACHMENT (Crimson Slaughter)-

HQ-
Chao Lord w/Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Blade of the Relentless, Daemonheart, Prophet of the Voices, Slaughter's Horns, Plasma Pistol, Melta Bombs & Sigil of Corruption 260pts.

Troops-
(10) Cultists w/9 Autogun Upgrades 59pts
(15) Possessed w/Mark of Khorne w/Gift of Mutation on Champion & 445pts

Heavy-
(2) Mark of Nurgle Oblits 152pts
(2) Mark of Nurgle Oblits 152pts
(2) Mark of Nurgle Oblits 152pts

Fast-
Heldrake w/Baleflamer 170pts

ALLIED DETACHMENT (Chaos Daemons)

HQ-
Winged Daemon Prince of Nurgle w/Warpforged Armour, Greater Rewareds, Exalted Rewards & ML-3 Psychic Mastery

Troop-
Plaguebearers of Nurgle w/Plague Banner 110pts


With this variation you are reducing the number of "threat" units but let's be pragmatic here, the volume of fire is so high today that consolidating isn't going to hurt you. It more or less helps increase the odds you get to the target. The JuggerLord joins the Possessed who will either be moving like Beasts (and thus as fast as the JuggerLord), Shrouded, or kicking it with a 3+ Invulnerable save. With fifteen Possessed in the unit you have the same number of Wound as the Spawn but a survivability which is increased so many times it isn't even funny. The JuggerLord can also tank for them if you feel confident since he is packing a 2+/4+ (or a 2+/2+ if the Book of True Names has been used on the unit). The Relentless Blade is AP-3 and with all the other adjustments this JuggerLord hits like a ton of bricks. Ideal

The Oblits give you more Drop & Pop action against gun lines and the Heldrake does what it does best. The Daemon Prince is supercharging your JuggerLord's unit and bring some additional killing power to the table. Moreover that DP can be used to summon more Troops if you feel the need or if you load up on Biomancy can even heal the JuggerLord or itself with Life Leach or become a tank, etc. The Plaguebearers w/Banner can bring down even really nasty creatures due to the round of wounding on a 2+ and are a hardy enough objective camping unit. The Cultists camp to the back as always. I believe this build will give you the options you need against the Tau opponent, keep some of the look and fighting style you seem to like (although it is not my cup of tea), and even gives you some summoning options if you need it. Never forget that Exalted Rewards allow you to pick and choose at the start of the game and depending on your opponent you can tune for them. Personally, I'd rather have the Mark of Nurgle on the Possessed and make the Chaos Lord Mark of Nurgle too.... and put him on a Bike. Toughness-5 on the Possessed would be better.... but you seem to like that Jugger-thing... and want to use the model.

[clever handle]

@Caitsidhe
here come my critiques. Please don't just put this down to me being dismissive, I have been mulling these concepts for almost 24 hours now=)

that juggerlord is almost 100 points more expensive than my current configuration!!! I'd drop the plasma pistol for sure. I have tried out basically the same configuration you're suggesting however - just not w/ the prophet of the voices. My 2c: (1) prophet, for the intended purpose isn't really required - already paying for a 4++ so the negligible increase to 3++ isn't really worth it when you still have a 2+ LOS, he already moves like a beast & if the unit has shrouded he doesn't need it himself. He isn't required to have that rule to join the possessed so I would suggest that's a moot upgrade; (2) the blade of the relentless just never seems to pay off for me - sure it's only 5 kills to get him to AP2 at initiative however with "only" 7 attacks on the charge (the minimum you can have w/ the daemon weapon) I feel you're really limited - the trade-off of course being 1-pip of WS lower... I would drop him & the heldrake (mine never really performed super-well, even in 6th) in favour of simply taking Bel'akor for guaranteed invisibility which I'm pretty sure we all know is a broken-as-**** power useful for buffing ranged units and assault units=)

I would also disagree regarding the survivability of the possessed over the spawn - YES you have 15 wounds, these guys with power armor & a 5++, BUT you're also spending literally 3x the cost! the 3+ save in theory gives you 3x the survivability over something with no save, but in fact since the spawn are beasts, they're able to stand in cover for a 5+ save in addition to having 3 wounds a piece (of course this is negligible help against Tau, who can strip cover like nobody's business...); they also have the advantage of never needing to rely upon a D3 roll for their speed.

I'm not 100% sold on the juggerlord or spawn, but you're right, I've done (what I consider to be) a wicked conversion, including some of my finest greenstuff work, and would be loath to not use the unit. The genesis of my list was from very early 6th edition, and served me well throughout. Back when everyone & their dog was deploying their imperial guardsmen / firewarriors within 6" of their table-edge, hidden behind their aegis, it was apparent that chaos couldn't simply stand and bang at long range, nor could they dominate the middle-ground. to that end I developed a list that mitigated incoming shooting by closing ground quickly, with multiple concurrent threats, knowing that if one or two made it through, they'd destroy the gunlines.

Thoughts on taking a prophet of the voices sorc & running him with a large unit of possessed (gotta pickup those gal vorbak models!) to summon / buff daemons, otherwise kitted similarly w/ the daemonheart & slaughterer's Horns? This would be in lieu of the juggerlord & could add to the mastery levels on the table if I were to take a C:CD daemon prince & belakour?

[Caitsidhe]

@Caitsidhe
here come my critiques. Please don't just put this down to me being dismissive, I have been mulling these concepts for almost 24 hours now=)

I don't find it dismissive to give thought to something and disagree. For the record, I did the best I could trying to keep your JuggerLord. :D I personally find your whole army style somewhat risky (including my variation). If I had my way I would change your list entirely. :D


that juggerlord is almost 100 points more expensive than my current configuration!!!

True, but you get what you pay for. It is my personal opinion that a Nurgle Lord tricked out with the Crimson Slaughter party favors on a Bike riding along with the Possessed is a better deal overall. In that variation you get Toughness-6 for the Lord and Toughness-5 for the Possessed on top of their Str-5.


I'd drop the plasma pistol for sure. I have tried out basically the same configuration you're suggesting however - just not w/ the prophet of the voices.

Prophet of the Voices is required to run with the Possessed AND to make you eligible for the supercharge to your Invulnerable save via your allied in Daemon Prince with the Book of True names. What we are talking about is synergy, i.e. making the most durable behemoth possible. Don't forget that the the rest of the unit will be Invulnerable save 3+ w/Book of the True names even if they don't roll that effect as Possessed. When they do roll it they will be 2+ just like the Lord.


My 2c: (1) prophet, for the intended purpose isn't really required - already paying for a 4++ so the negligible increase to 3++ isn't really worth it when you still have a 2+ LOS, he already moves like a beast & if the unit has shrouded he doesn't need it himself. He isn't required to have that rule to join the possessed so I would suggest that's a moot upgrade; (2) the blade of the relentless just never seems to pay off for me - sure it's only 5 kills to get him to AP2 at initiative however with "only" 7 attacks on the charge (the minimum you can have w/ the daemon weapon) I feel you're really limited - the trade-off of course being 1-pip of WS lower... I would drop him & the heldrake (mine never really performed super-well, even in 6th) in favour of simply taking Bel'akor for guaranteed invisibility which I'm pretty sure we all know is a broken-as-**** power useful for buffing ranged units and assault units=)

Be'Lakor is my go to guy. I think Chaos Lords are simply too weak compared to any Daemon Prince to make the grade. The only reason we are talking about one is you seem to like them. In short, I'm trying to build you a beast that does the job you seem to be setting it. Is it more expensive than yours? Yes. The problem with building an assault army (which you are doing) is that it is nothing but points flushed down the toilet unless it makes contact (and contact with enough left to do damage). That means you have to build something that can take enough fire to reach the opponent. Possessed w/Toughness-5 and a supercharged Invulnerable save... along with a tanking Chaos Lord with likewise broken saves seems to be your best option. My personal opinion is you scrape the entire army approach in this age of the gun, but you seem set on it. The units you have in your current list will continue to get blown apart in detail.


I would also disagree regarding the survivability of the possessed over the spawn - YES you have 15 wounds, these guys with power armor & a 5++, BUT you're also spending literally 3x the cost! the 3+ save in theory gives you 3x the survivability over something with no save, but in fact since the spawn are beasts, they're able to stand in cover for a 5+ save in addition to having 3 wounds a piece (of course this is negligible help against Tau, who can strip cover like nobody's business...); they also have the advantage of never needing to rely upon a D3 roll for their speed.

Again, the Book of True Names is about giving them a minimum 3+ Invulnerability save (something difficult to take away). Think about it this way, on any given turn they will have a 3+ Invulnerability save plus either an improved Cover save from the D3 or be moving like Beasts. If not they have a 2+ Invulnerable save. They have a better WS than the Spawn and a more reliable number of attacks (it doesn't vary). Do you pay more? Yes. You get what you pay for. Having MORE units on the board, none of which are going to do the job and all of which are going to get blasted into oblivion, isn't going to matter in the final count. Hell, you could cut more and take the Possessed up to twenty models and further increase your odds.


I'm not 100% sold on the juggerlord or spawn, but you're right, I've done (what I consider to be) a wicked conversion, including some of my finest greenstuff work, and would be loath to not use the unit.

I understand this mindset which is why it was my guess. I have a beautiful, custom Defiler finely detailed with green stuff and the envy of all who see it... when I bring it out. Sadly, the Defiler simply isn't a good buy in this Edition. It rarely sees play unless I'm giving a teaching game. You have to kill your darlings (as we say in fiction). No matter how good a model looks, if it doesn't perform you are taking a handicap.


The genesis of my list was from very early 6th edition, and served me well throughout. Back when everyone & their dog was deploying their imperial guardsmen / firewarriors within 6" of their table-edge, hidden behind their aegis, it was apparent that chaos couldn't simply stand and bang at long range, nor could they dominate the middle-ground. to that end I developed a list that mitigated incoming shooting by closing ground quickly, with multiple concurrent threats, knowing that if one or two made it through, they'd destroy the gunlines.

We approached the issue in very different ways. I adopted a more Drop & Pop method during 6th and now in 7th I augment that with Daemon Princes with wicked impressive Jink saves. In 6th Edition I often used Traitor Guard allies fielding a large number of Sabres but until we get a Faq that artillery unit has been hurt by not being able to shoot at ground targets except as snap shots. I'm an options player, and thus I like to have the most tools at my disposal, and I prefer those those which have utility against the widest spread of opponents. I never really got into running 3+ Heldrakes because it was suicide if you ran into Terminator armies (they might as well be kites at that point) or a few other builds which the birds can't hurt. I generally take a single Heldrake because of the utility and I don't lose much if I do run into a match that negates it. Do you follow my logic. Obliterators cover a wide variety of options and thus I never run with less than six and I have been known to run with nine to twelve. Daemon Princes likewise make bank. We have options that aren't bad, but they suffer by comparison to units that will always perform better. In larger points games, you will see me break out with Plague Marines, Noise Marines, named characters, and all sorts of interesting combinations. I am particularly fond of the Proteus Land Raider w/Cypher and his special Chosen. Nothing like coming in from Outflank with that kind of firepower to dig out Tau, Guard, etc. ... that being said, those combinations are expensive and can only be utilized in a 2K+ game. In little games, say 1500-1850, you are going to seem me using the real backbone of our army almost exclusively.


Thoughts on taking a prophet of the voices sorc & running him with a large unit of possessed (gotta pickup those gal vorbak models!) to summon / buff daemons, otherwise kitted similarly w/ the daemonheart & slaughterer's Horns? This would be in lieu of the juggerlord & could add to the mastery levels on the table if I were to take a C:CD daemon prince & belakour?

Do a Prophet of the Voices Sorcerer of Nurgle on a Palanquin. That will be your most durable bang for the buck.

[SnakeChisler]

With Tau & the Farsight Bomb the biggest thing is tactics

Winning the roll off for 1st turn is essential as you want to come in 2nd

Deploy teaser units completely behind cover & don't even bother coming out to shoot

If you end up going 1st wipe out his 800 points on the board before his bomb comes in

Whirlwinds/thunderfire cannons etc at opposite ends of the map so he has to come deal with them and reserving everything else if going 2nd and pack a lot of big guns as they come out of reserve

Psychic powers (invisibility) + others Tau can't do squat against psykers he'll not come any where near an invisible unit

Get yourself a save of some sort DA Librarian with PFG DA Grand Master with 4+ invuln for unit Psychic 4+ FNP etc etc etc

You've gotta remember that the Bomb costs a fortune the Broadsides your always getting a save from unless you take 4+ armor and for the army to have ignores cover their pathfinders have to live beyond the 1st turn

[clever handle]

Please note that this thread isn't discussing a "proper" farsight bomb - which would use a large bodyguard squad of crisis suits. Instead, this is describing an armylist that uses the large volume of battlesuits to create a wall of S7 firepower that few armies can match or even consider out-ranging.

One thing to note.... the particular player hasn't showed up for gaming since this thread was posted 2 months ago...

[marful]

Please note that this thread isn't discussing a "proper" farsight bomb - which would use a large bodyguard squad of crisis suits. Instead, this is describing an armylist that uses the large volume of battlesuits to create a wall of S7 firepower that few armies can match or even consider out-ranging.

One thing to note.... the particular player hasn't showed up for gaming since this thread was posted 2 months ago...
Well, I guess you accomplished the goal you set out.

[clever handle]

still being willfully obtuse eh? The point was never to drive the player away - that's easy & I wouldn't need any help from the illustrious BoLS contributors such as yourself .

[daboarder]

well, I for one would tell the chaos player to look at a Defiler (or two, I'm liking them more and more), with its 4 HP, IWND, 5++ and S8AP3 battle cannon (that outranges the S7 suits as well as killing them outright) it should be able to put enough holes in the line to allow the rest of the list to smash home

Furthermore, the defiler offers defence against backfield/outflanking troops with its heavy flamer and 5 S10 AP2 fleeting combat attacks.

[Lord Krungharr]

I haven't thought about using a Defiler in a long time, but that battle cannon's range is certainly better than the Soul Grinder's. With the Broadsides' 2+ armor though S8/AP2 would be so much nicer (if only the Forgefiend could deepstrike and unload ectoplasm...sigh).

The Tau's early warning system to intercept is really the buggar for me, eliminating much of anything coming in from Reserves, and for 5 points!

Strangely, my massive unit of Grimoired Flesh Hounds and Jugger Heralds has always been the single most effective unit versus the Tau gunlines. Usually at least 2 Jugger Heralds and like 3 Hounds make it, but that's usually plenty to kill the 2 Riptides and another unit or 2 of whatevers (sweeping advances help out a bunch vs Tau!).

[daboarder]

yeah but still, you may be getting less wounds through than with plasma, but those wounds count more. I was actually thinking of using the cannon on the suits more, your less likely to catch them with your faster elements due to the suits speed.

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah, the jump-shoot-jump thing is annoying, really annoying!

I need some more experimentation; probably utilizing 3 Deathstrikes on a skyshield :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Even with a 4++, those Deathstrikes are going to struggle to stay alive.

[xsquidz]

Yeah, the jump-shoot-jump thing is annoying, really annoying!

I need some more experimentation; probably utilizing 3 Deathstrikes on a skyshield :)

Get them camo cloaks as well! That way you have 3+ if you get cover, 4++ if not. They are also 12/12/10 so its not bad vs. S7. If you really want to go crazy, get a void shield for them as well. :)

Plus you can deploy well out of their range hopefully and make them waste some turns moving closer. In this case going 2nd might be key, especially in DOW and just counter deploy as far away as possible.

[DrStrangeloveJD]

Almost no army can win a shooting war with a tau gunline, and the ones that can are specialized mech lists that struggle against mobile and aggressive opponents. But, Tau gun lines are far from invincible, stay calm and remember these tips.

1. Deployment is now one of most important phases in your up coming game. If you can, make the tau player set up first. Tau gunlines only have two effective deployment options, they can "castle" their army in the most defensible position (usually a large ruin for the 4+ cover save) in their deployment zone. Your opponent will be bunched up in cover to maximize saves, overwatch with friends potential, and to make sure all their units can shoot at the same targets. The other deployment option is a literal line near the edge of the deployment zone, which allows maximum objective grabbing and enemy targeting options. If your opponent chooses to castle your template weapons are now super effective so make sure your list has a few, Ignores cover and long range preferred. If your opponent forms a lose line, deploy your army as close to one table edge as possible. You will be deploying outside of half of the Tau weapon range and will force your opponent to spend a turn or two re-positioning units from the far side to bring them in weapons range. While your opponent re-positions you have the opportunity to use your superior numbers and weight of fire to seriously degrade half your opponents army.
2. Understand the value a long range artillery support unit has against a more or less static force. Lobbas, Thunderfire Cannons, Wyverns, Basilisks, and the daemon warp storm table are all great at racking up wounds each turn and as you degrade the gunline it gets much less dangerous. IG/AM has a special edge with AV14 tanks shooting ID pie plates. Knight Paladins are also fantastic w/ 2x S8 ap3 large blasts and will be brought up more later.
3. Dual or Triple threats are a must. When you can control what your opponent has to shoot at, you are winning the fight. Charging an imperial knight and a land raider full of nasty is the perfect example. Any tau player knows that once they are locked in CC they are flirting with death. Sure they have a few tricks like farsight's 4 ap2 S5 I5 attacks but these are not only eminently manageable, but few and far between. A tau gunline faced with a knight/land raider rush has to kill at least one of those units before the turn 2 charge (no small feet btw). You just freed up two turns for the rest of your army to pound on the tau. Your land raider will almost surely survive till turn two (you should be out of 2d6 melta range turn one) and if it does you can multicharge a few units and will either cut them down after winning combat or stay locked and safe.
4. Learn to love math hammer. Understand the numbers and the rest will follow. The original post said the tau list puts out 60-70 s7 shots a turn sounds like a lot, and it is, unless you bring the right toys. Lets do the math for a Knight on turn one just to show you what i mean. I am going to assume that the front facing of the knight av13 with an active ion sheild 4++ will be hit on turn one. To be as generous to the Tau as possible i'm going to assume the Tau list can put out 70 s7 shots a turn and 35 of them are TL. I'll even be nicer and assume that marker lights have boosted all these shots to bs 4. out of the 35 regular s7 shots 23.333 should hit on average so lets say 23-24. 6's will glance so Tau can expect to average 3-4 glances half of which should be saved on the 4++ shield totaling 1-2 glances on average from 35 s7 shots, OUCH! Now on to the TL shots, 35 TL shots will average 23-24 hits on the first roll, and of the 11-12 average misses 7-8 of those will hit on the TL reroll, totaling 31-32 hits. 32 S7 Hits will average 5 glances against AV13, which will be reduced to 2-3 glances with the 4++ ion shield. At the end of the day this entire Super charged bs 4 tau gunline will only be getting 3-5 glances turn one on a knight. Not even enough to kill it.
5. Know the Tau weak spots. Toughness 4 makes for easy instant death opportunities on expensive and dangerous models like broadsides and crisis suits. Low leadership makes powers like terrify, psy shriek, dominate,special rule like fear great, and creates a vulnerability to LD checks from shooting. Average WS2 and I3 makes Tau prime CC targets and little more then skulls for the skull throne if you have ws 5 and up.
6. Know your armies cheep tricks. If you play CSM, slap a dirge caster on a land raider, multicharge the tau lines turn 2 overwatch free. Play daemons? Be'lakor can invis your important CC units. Cast shrouded your first turn and surround Big B with anything in your army that can jink for 2+ cover save which forces your opponent to use valuable marker light shots or ignore the squad. Play the imperium? Knights, IG/AM armor, centurion stars work great. Etc etc etc...

[sfshilo]

Storm ravens with inquisitors allied with a knight or two.

Charge asap with knights. Laugh at s7 trying to hurt an av12 flyer that ignores melta. Also take the inquisitor that has the fun grenades. Use psychic to get invisibility.

[Maelstorm]

Necrons

Can you say "Death Ray"?

3 Necron Doom Scythes will clean them up. Strength 10, AP1 3d6 line starting 12" away - can hit anywhere on the board starting turn 2. AV13 vehicles (Annihilation Barges, Ghost Arks, Catacomb Command Barges) on a landing pad for a 4+ Invulnerable save. You might lose 1 Vehicle on turn 1, and 1 flyer on turn 2, then it's Instant Death for anything under Toughness 6.

[Ang56]

I read through most of this, I agree with the people saying that it's board setup. My group decided a little into 6th we didn't like the drift towards gun lines. Decided to revamp our boards to attempt to remedy it. While there are still problems, it's had very positive results for us.

- Put a lot of terrain down, not area terrain. Filling the board with cover saves is either irrelevant or overly strong for a lot of armies. Elevation changes, solid structures that can't be entered / seen through, rocks, block out the bottom levels of buildings or put them on 2" platforms with stairs up to the doors, etc. You can get pretty creative. Very little deployment zone to deployment zone shooting. At ground level we try to keep LOS between 12-24" excepting a few long corridors, going up gives you better range but is risky, especially since the bulk of the units on the board for both sides won't even have a target at ground level on any given turn.

- Play smaller games, or on larger boards. Personally I feel like 1500 pts on a 6x4' table is very tight, weapon ranges don't really matter for most heavy weapons, they'll be able to reach targets. Most of our tables are 8' or 10'. 1850 pts on a 10' board is pretty fun. Makes it much more about movement and adds a lot of lateral movement. Encourages mobile units, or larger volume of cheaper units. This I think has been the biggest factor for us and discouraging deathstars, they may be near invincible, but they cost a lot and don't usually cover enough ground to make up their cost.

- Place objectives in the open and towards the middle, most of the batreps I watch the Objectives are in all the places you want to park a unit anyways. Awesome cover and a good view. Make camping an objective to deny it a risk. No cover and in those corridors with long lines of sight where lots of heavy weapons can see.

To be honest the armies feel much more balanced since we redid our boards (more balanced, not balanced :P). There's been a few very hard to beat lists pop up, but we are seeing way more variation then we did with open 6x4' tables, and almost all games are very objective focused since the majority of your units will spend several of the turns moving to get into position, tabling someone is rare.

As for your str 7 36" gun spam for a low unit count army they'd be far less overwhelming when they spend a lot of the game walking to targets on a 10' board and can't gang up on your units if they want to be spread out enough to score obj's. Just based on my experiences with maelstrom and our tables, Fire Warrior spam, backed up by some XV teams is scarier to me. Maybe throw in a riptide and some drones for snaking vps on the less defendable markers.

I'm not saying it's not a strong list I just think it's not nearly as threatening when you cut down the LoS and spread out or depopulate the game space as opposed to the 6x4' 1850 arena style blood baths that allow 75%+ of your guns to find targets every turn and by turn 4 one side is down to remnants if not tabled.

[ti9999]

Here's one to take out Tau gunlines.
1850
Chaos Marines -
CAD 1 - 1080
HQ - 80
Sorceror - 80
(Mark of Slaanesh)
Troops - 100
Cultists - 50
Cultists - 50
Fast Attack - 525
Heldrake - 175
Heldrake - 175
Heldrake - 175
Heavy Support - 375
Maulerfiend - 125
Maulerfiend - 125
Maulerfiend - 125
CAD 2 - 770
HQ - 140
Herald of Tzeentch - 70
(Psy2)
Herald of Tzeentch - 70
(Psy2)
Troops - 90
Nurglings - 45
Nurglings - 45
Heavy Support - 540
Soul Grinder - 180
(Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment)
Soul Grinder - 180
(Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment)
Soul Grinder - 180
(Slaanesh, Phlegm Bombardment)

This is bascally damned if you do, damned if you don't. All the Daemon Engines have invulnerable saves, the Drakes and Maulers have IWND. The Maulers can go 12" a turn and be in position to assault on turn 2. The Grinders can advance with nigh impunity while blasting away thanks to AV13 and the 5+ invul. Once the Drakes show up, it's the coup de grace. No matter what he shoots at, he can't stop enough of it before the rest of it ravages his units. The heralds can take Prescience and whatever else you think might be useful, then spend most of their time twinlinking the Grinders. The Sorceror's Slaanesh powers largely focus on screwing with enemy's ability to fight back. Use Sensory Overload ALOT since in can pin and blind (if they don't have Blacksun Filters). Even getting it off on a unit of Broadsides just once before the sorceror dies can utterly screw them over since they would only be able to snapfire no matter how many markerlights he has.
Your goal is to focus on the Missilesides first, since thats where the bulk of his dangerous firepower is, while charging full throttle into his teeth.

That's the key weakness of this Tau list. A big chunk of points are sunk into only 6 models that hold much of the firepower. If these units can be neutered or wiped completely before the deepstrikers start arriving, it will severely hamper the ability of this list to handle anything effectively. Additionally, since most of the shooting is S7, armies that lean to either extreme end of the tough/numerous spectrum will give this list a hard time. For example, a marine (loyalist or chaos) force that spams land raiders will give these tau a very hard time. On the other end, a tau force like this has absolutely no chance whatsoever of stopping an 1850 point green tide formation from the Ghazghkull book before it hits them. One like this -

Try shooting this down before it gets across the board to you. The Big Boss Pole makes the whole formation Fearless.
Waaagh Ghazghkull - 1848
Green Tide -
Warboss - 190
(Mega Armor, Big Boss Pole, Da Supa Cybork, Choppa of Da Ragnarork)
8x Mobs = 1336
22 Ork Boyz - 167
(Nob, Power Klaw)
2x Mobs = 322
21 Ork Boyz - 161
(Nob, Power Klaw)

208 Ork Boyz, 10 Nobz, 1 Warboss - 219 Total

Actually there are very few armies that stand a chance of stopping this before it gets to them.

My overall point is that while this Tau list may be a very good all round, all comers list, it will struggle against several highly specialized lists such as high armor or extreme hordes. You just need the right build to exploit that weakness.

[Wildcard]

I read through most of this, I agree with the people saying that it's board setup. My group decided a little into 6th we didn't like the drift towards gun lines. Decided to revamp our boards to attempt to remedy it. While there are still problems, it's had very positive results for us.

- Put a lot of terrain down, not area terrain. Filling the board with cover saves is either irrelevant or overly strong for a lot of armies. Elevation changes, solid structures that can't be entered / seen through, rocks, block out the bottom levels of buildings or put them on 2" platforms with stairs up to the doors, etc. You can get pretty creative. Very little deployment zone to deployment zone shooting. At ground level we try to keep LOS between 12-24" excepting a few long corridors, going up gives you better range but is risky, especially since the bulk of the units on the board for both sides won't even have a target at ground level on any given turn.

As for your str 7 36" gun spam for a low unit count army they'd be far less overwhelming when they spend a lot of the game walking to targets on a 10' board and can't gang up on your units if they want to be spread out enough to score obj's. Just based on my experiences with maelstrom and our tables, Fire Warrior spam, backed up by some XV teams is scarier to me. Maybe throw in a riptide and some drones for snaking vps on the less defendable markers.

I'm not saying it's not a strong list I just think it's not nearly as threatening when you cut down the LoS and spread out or depopulate the game space as opposed to the 6x4' 1850 arena style blood baths that allow 75%+ of your guns to find targets every turn and by turn 4 one side is down to remnants if not tabled.

I am not familiar with the army you play, but shooty lists fear/are really at a disadvantage at short ranges. I have Imperial Guard and Grey Knights armies and mostly play against chaos space marines and blood angels, and sometimes eldar and orks. There is not a single time i've had any chance with IG against any army that has close combat units capable of moving like jump infantry.
- They either jump over los-blocking terrain and charge or
- They jump over los-blocking terrain with units that cannot be killed in one turn (either too tough or too many, like msu in case of BA assault marines) and after that they charge.

Then its all over for any artillery, tanks, and infantry.


We started playing right at the start of 5th ed, and first games we had open boards. Needless to say my fellow gamers soon decided under the relentless Leman Russ Battle Tank and Basilisk fire that on the future we play with boards that have as many cover as possible :) -so i agree with you that atleast some cover (los-blocking) is required.