Why I don't mind the price.

[Victus Mortecarium]

Honestly, I am tired of people whining about the price of Games-Workshop models. Sure, the start up cost is pretty big if you are going all out. It is that reason that we should be convincing new players to find a close friend to go in "Halfers" on a Dark Vengeance 2 player starter kit. In Canada, it is about 120 bucks. Split that between two people and it doesn't cost you much more than a AAA video game. In canada, that is only 10 bucks more than a warmachine battle group.

Because everyone always brings up warmachine/infinity or card games, I think I will too:

1. Warmachine really isn't that much cheaper. Sure, "You don't need to buy as many models", but you don't NEED more warhammer models either.

2. Warmachine and Infinity lack variety in vehicles. Sure, it is squad based combat, but both use mostly large mechs or humanoids. They clearly have their own flavors.

3. Just about every Magic: The Gathering player I know pays at least $1000 on cards a year. Cards you don't get to build or paint. (Part of the hobby to a lot of wargamers)

4. Have you ever looked at other models that aren't used for gaming? The detail is usually the same or worse than GW. I see tanks going for almost 100 dollars. GW prices are pretty standard.

So assuming we aren't all going for apoc-style battles, warhammer is as expensive as any other hobby.

[Chaoschrist]

So in short; it does depend a bit on what kind of game you like?

If I like epic, big scale games 40k might be for me. If I like skirmish type games, I might just as well look for an alternative. And if I like to keep it small scale but like to add a small squad or a few single figures, I might even consider Warmahordes or Infinity. 40k IMO supports larger scale gaming. That by itself isn't wrong and that by itself brings a pricetag. Perhaps that's what people should be aware of.

I guess there's a thing about the corresponding starter sets and splitting them up with your friends. Or even selling it on ebay. And that's often how I look at starting a new game as well.

What I will say about Warmahordes (and I can't speak for infinity since I don't play that game) is that exchanging your warcaster/warlock can change the feel of your army significantly. That in turn makes it easier to play a different style. It's something I sometimes wish 40k would learn from. So without even expanding, the option to change something seems pretty budget.

As for Magic. Are those by any chance competitive players? There is a pricetag on competition in any game. Or any hobby for that matter. Competitive 40k ain't cheap either and you do need a bit more models and probably work towards listbuilding towards the current meta (which might change come next codex). If it's casual players, there's no need for them to spend that. They want to spend that amount of money and that's perfectly fine. When I frequented a local store and actively played MtG, I stuck to the same deck for almost a year. I spend about €50 on it (should be what... $65?) and had fun for an entire year. Played the weekly tournaments and sometimes beat the top decks. So either they are playing competitive or just like to buy loads of cards and build decks. Besides, Pauper is a format with nothing but common cards. Find a local store that runs tournaments and you're set. Good luck finding tournaments that cater to budget wargaming where people bring cans and bottles instead of mini's.

The modelling thing though, you're right about that. As former Ork player, I've often looked at modelling kits for custom battlewagons. It rarely was a cheap alternative. Many vehicles in a 40k scale were just as expensive, if not even costlier.

However, despite it looking like I'm trying to debunk your claims; I do agree. While I might cringe about the prices and policies of GW, it's not like the prices are that crazy compared to other hobbies in general. If you play something like golf, do any other sport, or maybe you're even a gamer, chances are your budget will run the same. And obviously, and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one, the moment you have more interests/hobbies going on, the budget will increase a lot. Actively being a gamer with current gen consoles and being into wargaming does impact someones budget to play and such. If I were to just allot my money on wargaming, it might not even be that bad. Perhaps it's a bit or prioritizing.

[daboarder]

it must be nice living in a country not arbitarlly slugged with trade embargo's and price gouging.....theres a reason Auzzies generally have no problem with pirated material, digital or not

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I've never complained about the prices - however, I cannot afford GW prices - however as the products are not forced on me, I simply live without - I more enjoy seeing what other people do and have fun seeing the new products that come out these days. I think it also really depends if they are "expensive" depending more on what the individual earns AND what the individual personal needs.

Personally I've found historical fits me more lately- it's cheaper and the models are less parts and I am someone that DOES NOT want lots of options or customisation - if I want create something, I will sculpt it from scratch, if however I'm collecting another model-line I just want to get on and paint them and game (I should note my gaming needs are just a few close friends, so I do not have problems of tournement legality or finding places to play ect), so historical figures fit well for me as most of them are fewer parts and you get a good number of models for a pretty good price - for example my 16th century japanese is about 50 models and cost me £32, which is pretty good.

[Wargamer30]

1. Warmachine really isn't that much cheaper. Sure, "You don't need to buy as many models", but you don't NEED more warhammer models either.

You don't need to buy a lot of models, but I've found games under 1500 points to be un-enjoyable.

[Victus Mortecarium]

I'd like to thank everyone for their insightful replies.

ChaosChrist: To answer your MTG, you are right. They are very competitive, so that does kind of explain a few things...

[Wolfshade]

it must be nice living in a country not arbitarlly slugged with trade embargo's and price gouging.....theres a reason Auzzies generally have no problem with pirated material, digital or not

You are better off than the Polish people. I've run the numbers. Maybe if you didn't have such lovely weather, high wages and high living costs....

[daboarder]

You are better off than the Polish people. I've run the numbers. Maybe if you didn't have such lovely weather, high wages and high living costs....

the living cost is the symptom not one of the causes. and the wages don't mean jack when the cost of living is higher. Hell man, we've had Government inquires into the matter and every time they find that we are being rortted but the vested interests in parliament aren't with us.

So we do what we want in the end.

[Wolfshade]

Oh certainly and you know I can understand that you will pay higher costs for goods imported from Europe given the costs of shipping (I know a firm that had to transport a couple of tonnes of goods to Christchurch and that would have been huge had it not been donated by a large shipping magnate). It is the digital stuff I don't get and I mean we have this issue everywhere. Why does a US$0.99 track cost me £0.99? I mean it should cost what £0.58 so why does buying it in another country incease the cost so much?!

Surely that should just be a straight currency conversion.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm pretty much price immune too.

If I like something, I'll pay for it. This extends to GW, X-Wing (started....5ish weeks ago, already spent over £200), home entertainment (3D Telly, 3D Blurays, hundreds of VHS, DVD and Bluray, Sky Movies, Amazon Prime, Netflix). Beer, and other assorted hobbies (I'm taking on an allotment so I can grow my own veg. Start up cost is high, but hey it gives me something to do. And eat!).

I get why some find the prices high, but they are what they are so there's precisely no point whining on endlessly about it, or using something so subjective as an example of why the company is evil etc.

It sounds flippant, but I will never understand why people spend money on something they purport not to enjoy. Or why we get winklewaving about how little someone might have spent in the past 12 months. It's utterly immaterial to anyone but that person and their bank balance. Yet how many decent threads about the ins and outs of gaming and that have been ruined by someone honking all over the place about the price? Can't afford it? Tough. Don't want to pay it, go without.

[daboarder]

Oh certainly and you know I can understand that you will pay higher costs for goods imported from Europe given the costs of shipping (I know a firm that had to transport a couple of tonnes of goods to Christchurch and that would have been huge had it not been donated by a large shipping magnate). It is the digital stuff I don't get and I mean we have this issue everywhere. Why does a US$0.99 track cost me £0.99? I mean it should cost what £0.58 so why does buying it in another country incease the cost so much?!

Surely that should just be a straight currency conversion.

Because non-regulated capitalism that protects corporate interests is bust. The rise of Piracy is a response to decline of competition in the market place.

[Wolfshade]

Because non-regulated capitalism that protects corporate interests is bust. The rise of Piracy is a response to decline of competition in the market place.

It is less straightforward than that, as I am sure you are aware, after all 1 illegal download of the rulebook does not equate to 1 loss of sale.

[daboarder]

oh sure. I agree, if anything every analysis of the subject done by consumer groups that I've heard of has shown that piracy prevention does not lead to a significant increase in sales at all.

[Wolfshade]

Exactly, it is as gabe says, it is about creating a product that people feel that they should pay for.

[Caitsidhe]

The lesson of the last fifteen years in regards to music, games, and films should be crystal clear. Battling piracy is a losing proposition. Until we achieve the mythical one-world government, piracy is going to be alive and well. If anyone should understand this, it is the British who kind of pioneered the whole concept back in the days when it was patriotic to burgle the Spanish at sea and/or rip off the French at every opportunity on the waves. :D Successfully battling pirates requires all governments to be on the same page. Our world is not on the same page nor is there any chance it will be soon.

The only model that has eventually worked is to embrace the changing technological context and reduce prices to the point where you still make a small profit on every item sold so that you can make your profits bulk. Pirates make their profits off "luxury" items. The high mark up leaves them plenty of room to sell cut rate and make money. A lower mark up leaves them in the position of not making a profit or losing money. Most people, believe it or not, are willing to pay for things (even stuff they can get free) if the price point is within a tolerable range. They pay that price point to feel honest (or because they are honest). When you set the price point too high, it becomes far too easy for people to justify piracy. This is why people now pay for music in the current model (very low price per song or album) when they could get the music free with simple search on youtube and then convert said high quality video to an MP3 quality music file. Do you follow?

Legitimate companies keeping their prices high is what keeps pirates in business. It also empowers their legal competition, but that is another discussion for another thread. Games Workshop is still the three hundred pound gorilla in the room. Despite all they have managed to do to themselves, they can still dominate the market. They could, if they wanted, cripple pirates almost overnight. They have the brand name, distribution system, and industrial setup to produce more for less and make their profit bulk. This would require them to readjust their business model to meet the changing world. They seem, like the music industry, intent on being dragged kicking and screaming into that painful truth. It is their dime, or rather it is that of their stockholders. If they want to do it the hard way and ignore the lessons other companies and businesses have taught... then there is nothing anyone can do. :D

[completeHook]

It is less straightforward than that, as I am sure you are aware, after all 1 illegal download of the rulebook does not equate to 1 loss of sale.

If anything the odd illegal download here and there leads to sales.

As far as the price goes in the UK at least, while not cheap it is no more expensive than a lot of other ways to kill time in a fun way, for instance*;

Cinema ticket £10

Paperback novel £8

Pint £4

Meal with wine (mid range restaurant) £20 ph

1.7gr of lho analogue £20

15 litres of petrol £20

So dropping £20/£30 on a kit or book, while not something I would do without thinking about it first, isn't a huge commitment for me now. However last year I was seriously broke, so I just made the most eBay and planned every purchase.

*All prices based on where I live in the South East.

[Wolfshade]

Wow £4/pint, I wince at north of 3!


Certainly, as others have said it isn't miles away from other table top games and arguably of better quality, I am looking at those with static monoposes.

I imagine if you equate a BRB to a console then it is much cheaper...

[Chaoschrist]

....while not cheap it is no more expensive than a lot of other ways to kill time in a fun way...

It's pretty much how and why I was able to convince a friend of mine to get into wargaming. Either spend €50 on a new kit (for whatever gaming system) and have hours of fun painting and eventually throwing dice. Or spending that same (or even less hours) for a night out and a few beers. The expense is about the same, but technically, you can have recurring fun/use out of the kit you bought, something that doesn't really work with drinks at a bar.

For me it's probably a bit that I would like to have something be more than a "one shot". Heck, I'm already bothered if a videogame doesn't offer me enough replay value and I can't at least enjoy a few playthroughs that, despite it being the same game, play totally different.

[CoffeeGrunt]

£4 a pint? Sadly I drink Cider, so I look at £4.50 upwards in most places. A few pints of that in the average night, and I could've bought myself a tank.

I personally don't have too much issue with 40K, and generally spend about £70 a month on it as I'm expanding my Guard. I find the best thing to do is buy it at a steady rate, building and painting it as you go. I don't buy stuff because it's powerful or good, but because it looks cool which will be a more lasting factor in the end.

I mean, I have friends trying to convince me to build a new PC or buy a PS4, but we're looking at £500 easy for that sort of commitment, nevermind the steady purchasing of games required to make use of it. It's a very low priority in my spending.

[Mr Mystery]

It's pretty much how and why I was able to convince a friend of mine to get into wargaming. Either spend €50 on a new kit (for whatever gaming system) and have hours of fun painting and eventually throwing dice. Or spending that same (or even less hours) for a night out and a few beers. The expense is about the same, but technically, you can have recurring fun/use out of the kit you bought, something that doesn't really work with drinks at a bar.

For me it's probably a bit that I would like to have something be more than a "one shot". Heck, I'm already bothered if a videogame doesn't offer me enough replay value and I can't at least enjoy a few playthroughs that, despite it being the same game, play totally different.

You should try LARPing.....£70ish an event, plus getting there and back, easily £600 on gear (need to replace my trousers. Went all slippy following a polearm upside the head, and split last pair!).

Hobbies ain't cheap. Really not sure why some feel they should be.

Though it is all about value, which is of course entirely subjective. To work this out, I have a very rough calculation. Take the total cost of your current project, including the requisite rulebooks, paints etc. Then, work out/estimate how many hours you actively spend, or are likely to spend on that over a year. This would include everything from playing, assembling the models, painting the models, even writing lists. Take the money spent, and divide by the hours of activity to get an hourly cost. Then compare that hourly cost to other stuff you like to do.

It's very rough I know, but it does throw a bit of perspective into a highly subjective area.

[daboarder]

Y

Hobbies ain't cheap. Really not sure why some feel they should be.\

And your point is?

the "hobbies aren't cheap" line doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to make an objective decision about the value of the hobby, nor does it provide compelling evidence for why they should not accept alternatives to a hobby that is clearly not within their concept of value for money.

By the same morality that is often used to defend the actions of GW it is within the morality of the consumer to evaluate, decide and act upon what is best for them.

EDIT: And thats not even going into the fallacy that a luxury product should be reserved for only the top percentage spenders of the consumer community.

[Mr Mystery]

Nice selective quoting, no doubt to try and provoke an argument.

At no point did I say people aren't entitled to make up their own mind. I even included an example of how one might apply a form of objectivity to an entirely subjective matter.

And I totally agree. If you don't find it good value, you don't find it good value. Nobody can set a figure on when anything becomes good value. What I do wish is that those who feel the prices aren't for them wouldn't keep bringing it up in unrelated discussion. I honestly do not care one iota who can or cannot afford/justify spending on the hobby.

Now as for your fallacy, when exactly was that brought up? Oh of course, it wasn't. Just another erroneous thing thrown out to try to provoke a flamefest.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't *like* the price. I wish everything - everything! - was cheaper. But in terms of what I get out of it - reading the books, building models, thinking up background, painting, playing games, writing campaigns - I'm willing to keep paying. I just think harder about what I want these days.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't *like* the price. I wish everything - everything! - was cheaper. But in terms of what I get out of it - reading the books, building models, thinking up background, painting, playing games, writing campaigns - I'm willing to keep paying. I just think harder about what I want these days.

Ditto.

I bought my first models in over a year this month. I've kept up with the various rule books, because I like to do that. But this month, £155 spent on Stormclaw and Badrukk's Flashgitz, with the Space Woofs going to a friend for £30, meaning I've spent £125 total.

I just don't understand price being an argument point. You can, you can't, you do, you don't. You will, you won't. That's it. Can't argue someone's money into or out of their wallet. It's not possible.

[daboarder]

Nice selective quoting, no doubt to try and provoke an argument.


Hardly, just pointing out that the idea that a "hobby" cannot be subject to inflated prices because it is a hobby, is wrong.

Honestly its just what I latched onto and could be bothered responding too. nothing personal or unessecarily argumentative

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think we can all agree that the hobby being cheaper would be a very nice thing, but I personally feel that there's value for money in most of the models, though I personally have yet to buy a 7th Rulebook as I'm waiting on getting a mini one for cheap off EBay, (hopefully.)

All I have to buy is paints and models, which I can pace out enough to be not much more than what I spend on alcohol in a month.

[Mr Mystery]

I think we can all agree that the hobby being cheaper would be a very nice thing, but I personally feel that there's value for money in most of the models, though I personally have yet to buy a 7th Rulebook as I'm waiting on getting a mini one for cheap off EBay, (hopefully.)

All I have to buy is paints and models, which I can pace out enough to be not much more than what I spend on alcohol in a month.

If you define cheap as £20.....PM me.

[Morgrim]

The US prices are actually about what I feel GW stuff is worth. Pity I'm in Australia and have to pay double that. Which is why I rarely buy anything any more. (Please don't tell me to use [US seller], the discount is more than cancelled out by the blasted shipping for every one I've checked.)

[CoffeeGrunt]

If you define cheap as £20.....PM me.

PM'd, because yes that is cheap!


The US prices are actually about what I feel GW stuff is worth. Pity I'm in Australia and have to pay double that. Which is why I rarely buy anything any more. (Please don't tell me to use [US seller], the discount is more than cancelled out by the blasted shipping for every one I've checked.)

That sucks man, though my friend who worked in an engineering company in Aus for a year or two says that's the trend in general there. (We frigging wept at his description of $12 pints and other such travesties.)

[Caitsidhe]

You should try LARPing.....£70ish an event, plus getting there and back, easily £600 on gear (need to replace my trousers. Went all slippy following a polearm upside the head, and split last pair!).

My wife and I do LARP. What stuns us is the prices you just quoted. It costs us $5.00 American to attend one here in the States. You guys are sure conditioned to hand over large sums of money. How many people attend your LARP events versus what it costs to rent the hall? :D I'm just fascinated by the economics of this weirdness.


Hobbies ain't cheap. Really not sure why some feel they should be.

Lots of hobbies are cheap. Some are expensive. Some are middle of the road. The issue for Games Workshop is that they think THEY are the hobby. They aren't the hobby. They are merchants who service the hobby. It is their belief that they themselves are the hobby that is the heart of things. :D


Though it is all about value, which is of course entirely subjective.

It isn't subjective. They are merchants. There is nothing subjective about the price people are willing to pay and the price they will not. You keep wanting to wax philosophical about something that isn't the least bit philosophical. They are merchants who were pretty much alone in the market as far as real peers and competitors. The situation is changing and technology is not working in their favor. They want to charge a certain amount based on their original business model. We are starting to see that failure to adapt that model isn't working. Rather than change the price point or design aspect of their game, they have decided to restructure everything else (reduction in labor, direct sales, etc.). Historically, these options are rather hit or miss when it comes to creating a turnaround. When such steps are successful they are always tied to other larger changes in the business model which Games Workshop is not doing. If I were to bet on the outcome based on precedent, I would say that they haven't reached rock bottom yet, but they will before they embrace the changes that they need. I suppose it will really depend on the rest of the Board (the same people who have privately invited Kirby to step down) and whom is hired to be the new CEO. They will either hire a "yes man" and the pattern will continue and worsen, or they will hire someone who will look the Board in the eye and tell them, "you hired me to do a job now shut the hell up and let me do it. Your only important contribution to this was hiring me."


To work this out, I have a very rough calculation. Take the total cost of your current project, including the requisite rulebooks, paints etc. Then, work out/estimate how many hours you actively spend, or are likely to spend on that over a year. This would include everything from playing, assembling the models, painting the models, even writing lists. Take the money spent, and divide by the hours of activity to get an hourly cost. Then compare that hourly cost to other stuff you like to do.

This is interesting and all that but it still comes down to a weird, pointless analysis. People either are willing to pay or they are not. Right now, as far as GW is concerned, the days when they were going to pay to sustain past numbers are over. The little paragraph you gave above is almost exactly like the line people selling "Time Shares" give. :D


It's very rough I know, but it does throw a bit of perspective into a highly subjective area.

Your perspective being "cough it up people, it is a seller's market?" :D The problem is that it isn't a seller's market. It is a buyer's market.

[Wolfshade]

I would disagree prices are very subjective. Take (my standby example) Miller beer. One of the largest beer producesrs in the world (not that I recognise their produce as beer but that is an aside that is currently irrelevant). They know that the cost of production has very little to do with the end price, hence a miller beer is not the same price universally. The price of a beer in South Africa is about equivalent to 2 hours work, any higher and they think people will be priced out by it. Transfer that to £/$ from Rand and it becomes pennies or cents. If they tried to sell it at UK prices in ZA they would not sell a unit as it would take days to earn enough to by a beer.

So it is all about value.

I might consider that £200 for a bike wheel represents good value, you might think that anything more than £20 is over priced.

[40kGamer]

I don't mind the price but I do have a love-hate relationship with it.

I love the fact that GW's overinflated prices make it easier for new companies to enter the market. (This is the biggest bonus we all get from their unreasonably high prices.)

I hate the fact that it creates a barrier to entry for new players and because there is no compelling reason for the prices to be what they are... For years GW has adopted a policy of increasing prices well beyond inflation to prop up shrinking sales. I actually understand why they have done it. It is an easy, unimaginative answer to address lagging sales and stockholders only care about what you have done for them lately. However this is not a long term winning strategy, it is simply milking the cash cow.

[Wolfshade]

I think given the very slim profit compared with revenue that they can't be that over inflated. 10% margin on a luxury good? Or to put it another way £4.9 on each stormwolf sold

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. PP have a similar model for model cost to GW, yet the merest fraction of the overheads. Nobody ever calls their prices over inflated.

The price is the price is the price. Yes, they probably could cut the price. But, in order to maintain profit, any price cut would need to generate a significant boost in sales volumes.

For instance (roughly worked out. Not a economist. Figures for ease of working and illustrative purposes only).

Model A costs £10. Of this, Company Z makes £2 in profit. If Company Z sell 100 units of Model A, they make £200.

Company Z then apply a 10% reduction to the cost. Profit margin halves to £1. In order to make the same amount of profit, they now need to sell double the number of units.


Model B costs £10, but has a profit of £4 per unit sold. Company Z sells 100 units, making a profit of £400.

Company Z then apply 10% reduction to the cost. Profit margin reduces to £3 per model. In order to make the same amount of profit, they would need to sell 33% more.....

I think. Like I said, not an economist.

But in short? Cutting prices doesn't necessarily solve anything ever. Most sales are performed to ditch 'last season' stock, on account it's better to make 50% less profit, than no profit at all and a stockroom full of stuff nobody wants to buy!

As for ever increasing prices....GW do offer lowered prices. But nobody ever seems to pick up on it. What am I gibbering on about? Plastic Kits. Some examples - pre-plastic, Wraithguard were what, £12 a model? Perhaps more? Now, £30 for 5. Hive Guard likewise, around £15 a chuck if memory serves. Now, £42.50 for 3.

Those right there are two very recent price cuts. Yes, other prices have gone up. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism. But those who pretend GW only ever put their prices up up up are frankly lying.

- - - Updated - - -


My wife and I do LARP. What stuns us is the prices you just quoted. It costs us $5.00 American to attend one here in the States. You guys are sure conditioned to hand over large sums of money. How many people attend your LARP events versus what it costs to rent the hall? :D I'm just fascinated by the economics of this weirdness.


Hall? Dude, we rent entire campsites and have at it over a long weekend!

This is the system I play in Curious Pastimes (http://curiouspastimes.co.uk/) And in the following image, you can see my mace swinging for the big gribbly. Shortly before I got squished into the tree just behind him...

http://curiouspastimes.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/renewal-12-2_1/375954_10151217321933488_171724056_n.jpg

And value is inherently subjective. For instance, Bloke A wants a Ferrari, because of the prestige. He finds value in that. Me? I'm happy with a 3rd of 4th hand Honda Estate I'm buying off my mate for £400. Indeed, although an impressive feat of engeering, the appeal of the Ferrari baffles me. Who in their right mind would pay more for a car than a house?

Same with GW. I enjoy the hobby, and the setting blah blah, and am happy to pay the price asked because I find value in it. Bloke H? Perhaps not so much. Doesn't make either of us wrong, as it's all about the price tolerance of the individual.

[Gotthammer]

Who in their right mind would pay more for a car than a house?

EG I believe this one is for you ;)


But yeah, value is highly subjective. I've spent a lot of money on a snowboard and I don't go to the snow because it was pretty, similarly I just finished setting up half a dozen $40 action figures because I love the show their from. Haven't bought any GW stuff in ages as the amount of enjoyment I get from it vs cost isn't right for me any more sadly.

[Psychosplodge]

If you're buying a Ferrari the odds are you paid more for your house still....

[40kGamer]

I think given the very slim profit compared with revenue that they can't be that over inflated. 10% margin on a luxury good? Or to put it another way £4.9 on each stormwolf sold

Fair point. Without being able to see line item expenses it is hard to argue with a 10% margin. I also realize that some of the issue is that GW doesn't get the full price from their own product. With 36% going through independent retailers 44mil of their sales are going out the door at around 50% of "the price".

That being said it would be interesting to know the bottom line profitability of their company stores vs the profitability of the sales through independent channels. It would also be nice to know how much senior management milks out of the company for compensation.

Like I mentioned in another post, market saturation and substitute goods have to be annoying as crap to deal with!


Indeed. PP have a similar model for model cost to GW, yet the merest fraction of the overheads. Nobody ever calls their prices over inflated.

The price is the price is the price. Yes, they probably could cut the price. But, in order to maintain profit, any price cut would need to generate a significant boost in sales volumes.

Infinity prices also cause a good deal of pain for the wallet yet it is ofter referenced as a cheaper alternative. :)

The price is theoretically what they need to operate and for those of us who have been in the hobby for a couple decades is almost meaningless anyhow. It is a barrier for new players and one that could be addressed with games targeted at newbies. Space Hulk for example is a classic game that allowed a low entry price and gave you base figures that you could use as a jumping off point into 40k proper. Something similar if marketed correctly could give an infusion of always needed new players plus give us veterans a quick play alternative for those times you don't have an evening to game.

Another big issue I have with GW corporate is that they blatantly ignore the fact that 50% of their potential customer base is female. They also do a horrible job of representing minorities in their universe. Good to know that the grim dark future is pretty well whitewashed and still ran by old men... but this is a whole different issue from price. :)

[spiralingcadaver]

Indeed. PP have a similar model for model cost to GW, yet the merest fraction of the overheads. Nobody ever calls their prices over inflated.Nobody on their forums, or in general?

Because, while I initially was happy with their prices, the emphasis on larger forces and the decline in their material quality without a lessened price definitely moved them from the "fun to buy a force with a budget" category to the "GW, Jr. with worse looking minis" for me, at least.

I realized that the decrease in my PP purchases was almost directly linked to their worse materials: they're just no fun to paint any more, when they're as much as high-end stuff (GW or Wyrd) but made out of that god-awful restic that I only tolerate because usually it's tied with some really cheap minis (like the giant boardgame KS's that have been around).

[Path Walker]

Another big issue I have with GW corporate is that they blatantly ignore the fact that 50% of their potential customer base is female. They also do a horrible job of representing minorities in their universe. Good to know that the grim dark future is pretty well whitewashed and still ran by old men... but this is a whole different issue from price. :)

This is a general issue in the wargames hobby sector, not at all unique to GW, most games seem to have poor representation of women!

[Arkhan Land]

Another big issue I have with GW corporate is that they blatantly ignore the fact that 50% of their potential customer base is female. They also do a horrible job of representing minorities in their universe. Good to know that the grim dark future is pretty well whitewashed and still ran by old men... but this is a whole different issue from price. :)

Maybe its being 1/2 hispanic, 1/2 Russian/Euro but I almost always paint my gaurdsmen with three different skin tones and then vary washes on all of em so almost no one in the unit matches. But i understand in the UK White population is about 85% in the US its closer 60-70% depending on how you look at it who you ask.

and on females in 40k, i think were in the midst of a lot of change right now in the US leaning towards Female military leadership take for example: first female 4 star just a bit ago, and the whole debacle concerning the USMC female officer training/course requirements thing earlier this year. Things are changing, albeit slowly but I wouldn't be surprised if this change in attitude wont have effects in other representations of the military like 40k, Movies, TV that arent already apparent.

But to bring a lot of meandering thoughts down to relevance, If GW somehow found a way to really appeal to minorities/women in a way that wasn't condescending. If it was well received it would in fact theoretically speaking be, very profitable. But thats also assuming that if they made these changes enough women would actually care about it to buy their products. My girlfriend (who normally does a lot of two dimensional painting) from time to time buys and paints a reaper models of a female warriors/monsters and was even thinking about trying to get one of the kingdom death pinups, but the truth of the matter is that if there was a set of female inclusive Eldar Gaurdians or IG troops I don't know that she'd really have any interest in getting into 40k/wfb anymore than she has now, which is none at all really.

[Mr Mystery]

On the gender divide, in the wider scheme of things model company wise, GW actually comes out fairly well. Granted that's not saying very much!

None of their female models are especially sexualised. Witch Elves and DE Wyches? Yeah bit of flesh on show, but no dodgy 'WTF is wrong with her hips' type poses.

Still a lot of work to be done in that area, but a bit of diversity is better than no diversity.

As for racial representation - I guess it can be quite hard to sculpt anything other than a fairly generic face without it becoming a caricature. Cadians and Catachans for instance? Can be painted a range of skin colours, as the faces are pretty neutral. When you start to think about how features need to be exaggerated at such a small scale, you can see how a sculpt can go from racial to racist representation all too easily.

[BeardMonk]

Some good points made here. I'm a WM/H player and WH fantasy player.

For me it all about “investment v outcomes over the time that investment is made”.

Im also a climber and mountaineer. I drop £300 on a new set of mountaineering boots. That’s a stack of cash as an initial investment. But balance that £300 against the 2 years life i’ll get out the boot, the routes it will help me climb, the support it will give me in a certain type of environment. Its a sound investment over time.

I also play in a band. I drop £200 on a new amp for my guitar. That’s a stack of cash as an initial investment. But that £200 is balanced against the bigger gigs we can then play over a number of years. Its a sound investment over time.

I drop £16-20 on some Tomb King Skeletons (or other regiment/unit kit). It is a stack of cash for what are essentially plastic toy soldiers. However I balance that against the fun I will have assembling and painting them. And then the enjoyment I will get out of playing the game with friends in a relaxed environment or down the club in a slightly more competitive sense. Its a good investment over time.

That said, I do wish and believe that GW and PP’s process could be lower. How is it that many on-line retailers are able to sell all their stuff at a 20% reduction? Price is the biggest obstacle to new players. Even with the various Fantasy and 40K starter sets, very few people would be willing to drop £55 on a geeky hobby that they are not sure if they want to be fully involved with. I get all my stuff via on-line independent retailers and ebay

So I agree with the OP and other here. The price is the price. You make a judgement call based on that and do your hobby your way based on that.

Most peoples objections really come to the fore when you combine price with the philosophy of the various companies.......... And that’s a different question/conversation entirely...

[Mr Mystery]

Bricks and Mortar matey.

Online retailers have lower overheads compared to a Bricks and Mortar store.

Bricks and Mortar stores with a decent website (like Thewarstore?) - best of both worlds. Regular gaming nights to keep the locals coming in, and generate new gamers, website to embiggen their potential customer base to essentially, the entire world!

Though very oddly, I do wonder if Unbound is the best thing to have happened to entry level 40k ever? Doesn't matter what you've got. You don't need a great deal of buying discipline with a view to a cohesive army. Just bung it on the board, and have a laugh.

[CoffeeGrunt]

How is it that many on-line retailers are able to sell all their stuff at a 20% reduction? Price is the biggest obstacle to new players.

We got asked this a lot when I worked in retail, and as Mr Mystery said, it's pretty much all down to the cost of having a physical store. You have to pay front-of-house salespeople, you have rent, power, heating bills, delivery infrastructure to restock shelves as well as the warehouse to store it all in.

Internet sellers only have the warehouse.


Though very oddly, I do wonder if Unbound is the best thing to have happened to entry level 40k ever? Doesn't matter what you've got. You don't need a great deal of buying discipline with a view to a cohesive army. Just bung it on the board, and have a laugh.

We've been finding Unbound very good for startup armies and themed lists so far.

[BeardMonk]

We got asked this a lot when I worked in retail, and as Mr Mystery said, it's pretty much all down to the cost of having a physical store. You have to pay front-of-house salespeople, you have rent, power, heating bills, delivery infrastructure to restock shelves as well as the warehouse to store it all in.

Internet sellers only have the warehouse.



That is true in some instances. However places like DarkSphere in London and Element Games in Manchester have big physical stores and in DarkSphere's case, 4-5 staff working at any one time, events, etc etc. Yet still sell pretty much every major games system and model range for about 20% off. maybe all the other systems make up the shortfall?

I just wonder if GW sold their models for that price, they would actually increase turnover.

[daboarder]

We got asked this a lot when I worked in retail, and as Mr Mystery said, it's pretty much all down to the cost of having a physical store. You have to pay front-of-house salespeople, you have rent, power, heating bills, delivery infrastructure to restock shelves as well as the warehouse to store it all in.

Internet sellers only have the warehouse.


No, Not if they are selling GW product. GW specifies that you MUST have a store. Its actually in their T&Cs

[Mr Mystery]

That is true in some instances. However places like DarkSphere in London and Element Games in Manchester have big physical stores and in DarkSphere's case, 4-5 staff working at any one time, events, etc etc. Yet still sell pretty much every major games system and model range for about 20% off. maybe all the other systems make up the shortfall?

I just wonder if GW sold their models for that price, they would actually increase turnover.

Any cut in price, is usually a cut in profit margin. Let's assume that out of a £100 price tag, £40 of that is the shop's profit margin (using nice round numbers because they're easier to work with. These are not intended as realistic in any way!)

Now, for reasons, this is now sold at a 20% discount on the price tag. So the price tag drops to £80. Except....the base cost to the shop/retailer/manufacturer hasn't gone down. It remains £60 of the asking price.

So, although this might drive an improvement in sales volumes, to make the same profit as before the discount, you would need to double your sales volumes. And let's face it, a 20% cut isn't going to pull in that sort of extra business!

[daboarder]

Except that GW is a niche market driven by impulse buying, no thought out purchases.....so yeah, inflated prices prevent impulse buying.

[CoffeeGrunt]

How is it driven by impulse buying and not thought out? Everyone I know tends to plan their purchasing ahead.

[daboarder]

because you have to, but the entire model is based upon impulse, hence to short preview for releases etc

[CoffeeGrunt]

You don't have to buy things on release. In fact, that's a fairly rare occurence around here, even with video games. May as well wait for the first wave of poor saps to impusle buy it, sample their thoughts, then decide on it.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno man.

Releases at pace simply keep my nose in their direction, looking to see what's coming next. Ltd Ed stuff like Stormclaw? That's a bit more impulse yes.

Impulse buys in GW tend to be the odd plastic character, WD, pots of paint, a new brush. Small stuff, things which I don't normally figure into my monthly budget, mostly because I forget about them.

But armies and that? I set myself a cash budget, and go shopping. Sometimes I come in under budget, simply because I have enough to be going on with. Occasionally, I'll go over my budget because I just can't choose between some options. There's very little room for impulse there.

[daboarder]

look their model is for impulse buying. everything they do is to promote impulse buys.

And as to what, well we've seen an astronomical rise in limited editions, and with crusade of fire, void shields,stormclaw we are now seeing that taken to the next step where products are avaiable for highly limited time at a highly limited quantity and a high price, and if your late no luck. thats all in an effort to force you to spend before thinking.

EDIT: They are on record stating that they don't provide longer looks at upcoming releases because they want you to buy what they release this week instead fo saving for next month....

[Mr Mystery]

Still isn't make me impulse buy though. And cheaper prices would not change that.

My budget is my budget. I tend to spend it shortly after payday, as that's my own spending habit. If the prices were lower, my budget would still be fixed, and GW would just make less profit on the purchases I make.

[daboarder]

anecdotes is anecdote!

Seriously, if I say I would buy more if it was cheaper now cancel out your statement? After all they only have a net gain then.

[Mr Mystery]

anecdotes is anecdote!

Seriously, if I say I would buy more if it was cheaper now cancel out your statement? After all they only have a net gain then.

No, but there is the slightly odd equation going on that lower prices mean people don't so much buy more, but somehow spend more.

As prices go down, people's budgets don't necessarily go up. Take food shopping. At the start of the month, I fill my cupboards and freezer with enough stuff to feed me until my next pay day (roughly 4.5 weeks on average). That in itself is my budget. Now, if prices go up, I still need 4.5 weeks of food in. If prices go down, I still need....you guessed it, 4.5 weeks worth of food in. Budget there is semi-elastic. If prices go down, I might chuck in a couple of premium treats (big juicy steak!) if they go up, I'll downgrade some purchases (say own brand Noodles for 19p a packet, rather than 90p for Bachelor's Super Noodles).

But for my hobby spending? Spread over X-Wing and GW, I'll allow around £200 a month. For X-Wing, I'll shop around as no local store stocks it. GW? I'll nip up and support my local branch (besides, manager is my former boss, and I like having him around!). But that £200 remains a £200 budget, by and large. If GW cut their prices by half in a moment of madness, I'd still only have £200 to spend. I'd just get more for it, but GW wouldn't get more money out of me.

The only time my budgets increase is when I get a promotion at work (next one should net me an extra £240ish a month, after tax) or I cut something else (like my Sky TV. Gonna ditch the movies. Too expensive, rarely watched, no point!)

My hobby prices don't change that.

[daboarder]

No, but there is the slightly odd equation going on that lower prices mean people don't so much buy more, but somehow spend more.

As prices go down, people's budgets don't necessarily go up. Take food shopping. At the start of the month, I fill my cupboards and freezer with enough stuff to feed me until my next pay day (roughly 4.5 weeks on average). That in itself is my budget. Now, if prices go up, I still need 4.5 weeks of food in. If prices go down, I still need....you guessed it, 4.5 weeks worth of food in. Budget there is semi-elastic. If prices go down, I might chuck in a couple of premium treats (big juicy steak!) if they go up, I'll downgrade some purchases (say own brand Noodles for 19p a packet, rather than 90p for Bachelor's Super Noodles).

But for my hobby spending? Spread over X-Wing and GW, I'll allow around £200 a month. For X-Wing, I'll shop around as no local store stocks it. GW? I'll nip up and support my local branch (besides, manager is my former boss, and I like having him around!). But that £200 remains a £200 budget, by and large. If GW cut their prices by half in a moment of madness, I'd still only have £200 to spend. I'd just get more for it, but GW wouldn't get more money out of me.

The only time my budgets increase is when I get a promotion at work (next one should net me an extra £240ish a month, after tax) or I cut something else (like my Sky TV. Gonna ditch the movies. Too expensive, rarely watched, no point!)

My hobby prices don't change that.

your assuming that people have a hooby budget. A lot of us merely buy what we can if we have some spare cash after all those things...so yes, lower prices would mean we buy more as the little left over we have can actually afford things....

[CoffeeGrunt]

Maybe you could plan your finances for the month and know what you have available to spend like the rest of us, then?

I do it every month on payday, it's the responsible way to handle your money.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno about responsible per se.

Soon as all my bills are paid, I go proper doolally with the remain cashmonies!

Though to true, next month is a no-models month. I'm buying and insuring a Car, going LARPing (£75 just to get in, plus booze, tabs and scran. And maybe a new Crossbow), then I'm off up to Scotland for parent's Ruby Wedding.

I never save either. Just spend spend spend, because it makes me feel good. And I can :p

[Morgrim]

For me, the high price point of a GW kit means that I'm less likely to buy because it takes me a long time to save for one. By the time I've gotten $90 for a stegadon I'm considerably more likely to have seen a $10 game on sale on Steam and then whoops that's another month before getting that dinosaur, and with the high price point it takes a corresponding dip in overall priorities. I'm not sure that's making much sense outside my head.

[40kGamer]

This is a general issue in the wargames hobby sector, not at all unique to GW, most games seem to have poor representation of women!

Sadly enough... And a lot of places that do represent women manage to sexualize them in the process.


Maybe its being 1/2 hispanic, 1/2 Russian/Euro but I almost always paint my gaurdsmen with three different skin tones and then vary washes on all of em so almost no one in the unit matches. But i understand in the UK White population is about 85% in the US its closer 60-70% depending on how you look at it who you ask.

Being American I’m a genetic mongrel. :) Having been in the game for decades, it’s the fact that they wove minorities into the fluff and then yanked them out for no real reason that I find most annoying.


But to bring a lot of meandering thoughts down to relevance, If GW somehow found a way to really appeal to minorities/women in a way that wasn't condescending. If it was well received it would in fact theoretically speaking be, very profitable. But thats also assuming that if they made these changes enough women would actually care about it to buy their products.

If they work it in properly it should be profitable... However, it's not going to happen overnight. There is a base of existing gamers that would buy into this idea simply because it’s different and interesting. They already have a solid female army that they could properly support so it shouldn’t be too big of an investment.


No, but there is the slightly odd equation going on that lower prices mean people don't so much buy more, but somehow spend more.

While you are correct in that people won’t buy more because the budget doesn’t change you have to allow for product substitution as well. Lower prices could mean more people use their existing gaming budget to purchase GW products vs competitors. I constantly here gamers making the comparison of “what can I get from X or Y with this money…” The only thing preventing a mass exodus of GW customers is that other companies have not managed to capture the same magic with their IP.


For me, the high price point of a GW kit means that I'm less likely to buy because it takes me a long time to save for one. By the time I've gotten $90 for a stegadon I'm considerably more likely to have seen a $10 game on sale on Steam and then whoops that's another month before getting that dinosaur, and with the high price point it takes a corresponding dip in overall priorities. I'm not sure that's making much sense outside my head.

Exactly what I'm referring to with product substitution. :)

[eldargal]

GW do pretty well with the quality of their representation of women, they just lack quantity.

[40kGamer]

GW do pretty well with the quality of their representation of women, they just lack quantity.

Quite true. :) Off the top of my head I was thinking about how some of the female models are represented in Infinity. (although Kingdom Death and Soda Pop are far worse with this). GW really does do a reasonable job. One could actually argue they were too conservative on the Dark Eldar Wyches this time around.

[Denzark]

I don't mind the price because it is a luxury and when I can't afford to buy new, there is a massive second hand market.

[Mr Mystery]

Added bonus is that the prices keep the second hand market buoyant. Sold off a load stuff earlier this year and made the best part of £1,000.00.

The stuff holding it's value isn't something you can easily discount for the most part.

[Arkhan Land]

GW do pretty well with the quality of their representation of women, they just lack quantity.

definitely agree, and I think its the part of it that makes it the genders seem so separated. As I mentioned I think things like mixed gender gaurdsmen would be a good way to work on that, partially if only because they are the "us" in space, the most army that most represents humanity. Sisters of Battle I think too a good job of being femenine without being too over-sexyd but I guess theres this part of me that wants something like the insertion team from Aliens or Event Horizon

[daboarder]

For me, the high price point of a GW kit means that I'm less likely to buy because it takes me a long time to save for one. By the time I've gotten $90 for a stegadon I'm considerably more likely to have seen a $10 game on sale on Steam and then whoops that's another month before getting that dinosaur, and with the high price point it takes a corresponding dip in overall priorities. I'm not sure that's making much sense outside my head.

No that makes perfect sense and is my point

[Mr Mystery]

definitely agree, and I think its the part of it that makes it the genders seem so separated. As I mentioned I think things like mixed gender gaurdsmen would be a good way to work on that, partially if only because they are the "us" in space, the most army that most represents humanity. Sisters of Battle I think too a good job of being femenine without being too over-sexyd but I guess theres this part of me that wants something like the insertion team from Aliens or Event Horizon

Big hurdle here is that they need to wait to redo kits, as it would appear Bitz don't sell enough for them.

Though there have been oddities, such as the Dark Elf Warriors being redone, and losing boob armour options. Granted, being Elves they should be androgynous anyway so Boob armour is less required, but even so.

[eldargal]

Yep that was a real shame.:( Unnecessary too, all they had to do was sculpt a more feminine chest intead of the male torsos they did it would have been no extra work. Heavily armoured elf women are a rarity in fantasy miniatures and it was really problematic for DE to lose theirs while getting more scantily clad elf women which are in abundance.

[Mr Mystery]

At least the scantily clad nature is sort of justified. Makes a certain amount of sense for Gladiators, and Witch Elves want to feel the blood on their skin. And none of the poses are what I might consider provocative.

[eldargal]

Yup but before you didn't have a situation where ALL the female Dark Elves were scantily clad, now you do. Before you could say yes it makes sense but look here are some heavily armoured women, now its just the standard fantasy situation where the women are unclothed which GW had been able to avoid until now.:(

[Mr Mystery]

True enough.

At least the Stick Pixies didn't follow suit. Though they're not exactly heavily armoured!