Forgefiends & Maulerfiends Revisited: They Still Suck

[Caitsidhe]

So I had an offer of a trade recently which included several Forgefiends and a Maulerfiend at fire sale prices. I didn't jump right on it because I recalled that I looked at them when our CSM book first came out, proxied them, and found them severely wanting. Even so, I figured this is 7th Edition right? Aren't vehicles supposed to be tougher now? That is what people keep telling me (although I certainly don't have any trouble killing them). Given the crazy value of the trade I figured I'd take a look again and see if now, years later, if I found I had misjudged them. I don't run into them very often (well almost NEVER) so I can't be the only person who found them wanting. Even so, I went and gave them another close examination.

Forgefiend:
Ostensibly our "volume of fire" walker, the Forgefiend compares badly against the like units of other armies and even worse against the similar options within the CSM book itself. Consider if you will, that a Carnifex decked out for shooting costs 5pts less than a Forge Fiend, fires (4) more shots, is twin-linked, can't be blown up, shaken, stunned, etc. and has the added perk of being absolutely deadly in close combat. Let's not forget the wonderful high strength Hammer of Wrath. There is also the added perk that you can stack those Carnifex up in units. I won't go on and on grabbing the volume of fire units from every codex but the pattern repeats. The Forge Fiend is overpriced and underperforms. The nail in the coffin is, of course, the fact that for barely a pittance more you can get three Obliterators that can do everything the Forge Fiend can and are much more durable. It is like they were drunk when they created the stats for this thing. One also has to wonder about it only having (3) Hull Points. It is huge and looks well designed. Apparently not. :D


Maulerfiend:
It has this much going for it; it is better than the Forgefiend. That being said, that isn't a lot. It is fast. If it hits it gets 1-2 extra nasty attacks which are really good for killing vehicles and buildings. That is about it. The problem is that for a dedicated combat walker, it isn't particularly good at its job. It is only WS-3, so for all the cool description in the book, the thing is actually no better at close combat than a damn Guardsman. It only comes with (2) basic attacks, so even given one for for the charge you will have to assume it is going to need 4s (or 5s) to hit. Since its Magma Cutters key on hits, that is something of a drawback. It does have the fact that it is relatively cheap compared to its worthless Forgefiend brother. Not too much more than a Helbrute, I suppose it is possible to spam them if you don't care about the fact that they compete with much better Heavy slots. Still, in 7th Edition, it really isn't difficult to get all the slots you want. If I had to run a Fiend, it would be a Maulerfiend. The main issue, of course, is that their primary purpose (the only thing they really do well) is kill vehicles and buildings. I suppose one could run (3) of them if you could find a way to get the slots or just went Unbound and three of them is around the cost of a single Knight. Eh. Even that doesn't really pan out. It really would take all three hitting intact to take a Knight down. Given the fact that they are glass cannons, good luck with that.
I wanted to like this guy, but he is only slightly more useful in theory, and in application will likely just get trounced.

[jenkatron]

I have to disagree with the analysis here Caitsidhe, and think both these models got some very nice boosts for 7th edition, as did walkers in general (though I feel these two are both more survivable and points effective than the helbrute and the defiler).
I would happily run either fiend, at basic loadouts with no upgrades to maximise point efficiency (I have run maulerfiends for some time and they are well worth the 125pts).

FORGEFIEND in 6th:
- Fleet AV12 walker, used as a static 8 36" shots S8 AP4, 50% hit at BS3
- Daemonic Possession: Ignores crew shaken/stunned on a 2+
- 5++ invul, IWND
FORGEFIEND in 7th edition is as above PLUS:
- New vehicle damage chart makes them harder to one-shot
- now a mobile shooting platform as walkers can move and fire all weapons at full BS
- Ignores crew shaken/stunned is much more relevant as this is now 4/7 of the vehicle damage chart
- 5++ invul, IWND are now more powerful as the general vehicle survivability multiplies their effects

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You compared the forgefiend to a dakkafex, which, admittedly is an awesome firing platform for Tyranids).
It is not a fair comparison: The dakkafex is MASSIVELY better in CC, but not nearly as useful as a shooting platform.
A dakkafex is not fearless (not usually an issue, but if you take them in the packs you describe you have a 'hidden cost' of someone with synapse - or risk them eating eachother or shooting nothing at all).
You are describing the TL Devourer loadout, which is 18" range, S6. 18" range is just not comparable as a shooting platform.
Yes there are more shots and more will hit (avg 9 hits vs only 4), but this is anti infantry and light armor ONLY. S6 is not gonna touch AV13/14, and is much less reliable against even light armor, walkers or flyers than s8.
S8 shooting also has better reliability at wounding high toughness infantry, bikes, MC's and can double tap T4 for instagibs.

The forgefiend got a lot more survivable in 7th, it can move and shoot and can still keep a sweet 36" range from the best anti tank melta type guns, it has a 5++ to ignore 1/3 of all attacks, is totally impervious to anything less than s6 shooting, and you can stick it behind an Aegis or a low ruins to further increase its survivability.
Sidebar about the CSM codexes lack of AA: I have on a number of occasions fired off a full pack of autocannon havocs at enemy flyers. Thats 8 x snapping S7 AP4 shots, usually good enough to mes up a flyers day. Thats one of my favorite multipurposes for the autocannon havocs.
The forgefiend is BETTER and is probably CSM's best AA tank, with that same 8 snap shots but now at s8, is even more likely gonna get you a penetrating hit, or a wound and grounded check on a FMC (most of which aren't holding 3+ armor saves).
In 6th 10x autocannon havocs were a lot better value than the forgefiend, 10 wounds being much harder to shift than 1 walker.
Your comparison to 3 oblits is interesting, but the forgefiend is a lot less likely to die to small arms/bolter fire, lacks AP1/2 but puts out a lot more high strength shots.
Its still (depending on what your opponent brought!) generally harder to kill 3 oblits and 10 havocs than it is 1 walker, but 7th has definately redressed this balance somewhat, and in my mind the changes have picked this model off the floor added it to the CSM Heavy Support toolbag.
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"HELL DOG" - the exact opposite of the forgefiend shooting platform this is a fast point, and let go of the leash type beasty.

MAULERFIEND in 6th:
- Fleet AV12 anti-tank/building walker, with a FAST 12" move just like a beast, and extra AP1 attacks in CC
- Daemonic Possession: Ignores crew shaken/stunned on a 2+
- 5++ invul, IWND
MAULERFIEND in 7th edition is as above PLUS:
- New vehicle damage chart makes them harder to one-shot
- New vehicle damage chart makes the AP2 fists and AP1 magma cutters your go-to pieces of CSM anti armor
- Ignores crew shaken/stunned is more relevant as this is now 4/7 of the vehicle damage chart
- 5++ invul, IWND are now more powerful as the general vehicle survivability multiplies their effects

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A lot of the above applies in terms of survivability, and the mauler has the added bonus that you can park him in a ruins on deployment to near guarantee a 4+/5++ save, and not even care about running out of it on your turn.
A lot less is needed here as you have acknowledged some of its value, except its speed is the key.
Speed allows you to pick your CC targets, the juiciest tanks and transports, the key buildings, or the infantry/marines/terminator pack with all power swords and axes and oops no melta bombs.
Your argument that hitting in CC on 4' or 5's is NOT the case if you are using this BEAST as intended.
Charge at a fortification or any tank and you are hitting against WS1, with 4 s10 AP2 attacks on 3's.
Roll any 3+'s to hit and you get a free extra s8 AP1 armorbane attack. Roll all 3+'s and you get 2 free extra attacks.
If you are particularly worried about the enemy target (ie a land raider or particularly nasty fortification, activate Daemonforge for rerolls of armor pen).
As with all of the above, it is now harder to pop tanks. Unless you bring AP2 or AP1. Guess what the helldog is loaded out with!
This model for me does what nothing else does in CSM, not many other armies have models that are quite as scary, it literally busts tanks for breakfast.
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[Caitsidhe]

Hrm. We do disagree, intensely. I should give you the info for the guy doing the trade.

[Macharius]

I do not play Chaos, so can not comment. But really solid analysis by both of you!.. All I can add is why I play against, I always find them making back their points, or being a pain in the plastic.

[marful]

My 2.123789245 ¢...

I have a maulerfiend. I try and use it to hunt vehicles, but it just fails.

My problems with it:

1.) It's too big. It can't hide. It just sits there as everything pops it before I get to go.
2.) AV 12 isn't enough for it to survive making contact with an enemy vehicle.
3.) WS 3 and 2 base attacks means that it will take 3+ turns to kill any vehicle.
4.) Because it can't lock vehicles in CC, they'll just move away leaving the Maulerfiend sitting in the enemy's line of fire with it's tender bits dangling just waiting to get charged. If it doesn't die from glances to it's rear at AV10 it will from the subsequent assault.
5.) The #1 killer of my Maulerfiend is by 5 man tactical squads with a sergeant with either a powerfist or meltabombs and multiple Krak Grenade attacks. (4 times now by different peoples tactical squads or equivalents...)
6.) ITWN and a 5+ just aren't enough to keep it up if it dies in 1 round.


If the maulerfiend was the size of a helbrute, and came in squads of 1-3, had +1 WS and +1 attack, then I might start looking at them. They simply do not have the stats for the points to do their role: armor killing.

A multi-melta equipped helbrute is superior at popping vehicles to a mauler fiend (and doesn't take up a heavy slot...).


And that's a really pathetic thing when a Dark Vengeance Helbrute is superior at popping vehicles than a maulerfiend.

[Charon]

I found one way to use Maulerfiends in a regular game. You really need to build your army around them to make them work.
You can make them part of a multiple threat fast moving army (Outflanking Lord + Spawn, 3 Maulerfiends, Bikes, Daemon Prince... maybe even Slaanesh Daemon allies). Its a pretty much forward "in your face list" that can overwhelm quite a few army comps. But aside from this... leave them on the shelf.

[marful]

I found one way to use Maulerfiends in a regular game. You really need to build your army around them to make them work.
You can make them part of a multiple threat fast moving army (Outflanking Lord + Spawn, 3 Maulerfiends, Bikes, Daemon Prince... maybe even Slaanesh Daemon allies). Its a pretty much forward "in your face list" that can overwhelm quite a few army comps. But aside from this... leave them on the shelf.
If your entire army needs to be designed around delivering 3 maulerfiends into CC with a vehicle...

What does that say about the effectiveness of maulerfiends?

[Charon]

If your entire army needs to be designed around delivering 3 maulerfiends into CC with a vehicle...

What does that say about the effectiveness of maulerfiends?

Getting your maulerfiends into cc is a bonus, not a must. Getting them into cc with a vehicle is an even greater bonus.
Creating an army around certain models to make them work is nothing out of the ordinary, doesnt mean these units are trash. Some units require a proper set up to work, some units work regardless of the setup. The Maulerfiend is one of the former units. Its not a very good unit to begin with but far from utterly useless.
But yes... if you decide to go for them, you have to spam them.

[DWest]

Personally, I've gotten good use out of a Maulerfiend, but in a completely different role- counter-assault. Put the lasher tentacles on and put it in the middle of your main thrust, and if the opponent sends anything in close, the 'fiend jumps out and gobbles it up. It's especially good against Space Marine Bikes; here the AV12 is a plus, because Krak Grenades mean the Bikers can't withdraw using "our weapons are useless", but at the same time, 5 throws needing 6s to glance aren't going to actually hurt the 'fiend any time soon. I also find the large size is actually an advantage, as the Maulerfiend can effectively screen or even block LOS for a variety of units. It puts the opponent in a bad spot- either "waste" fire on killing the 'fiend, or shoot around it at the more dangerous stuff, and then you have a fist-swinging monster loose in your back line.

[Sly]

My equations show me that the Forgefiend is better, per point, at killing vehicles of AV 12+ (and probably better vs AV11+) than Obliterators. While not necessarily tougher, it works better in an otherwise armor-heavy list. The Oblits would eat all of the anti-infantry fire while the vehicles eat the anti-tank, but if you replace Oblits with Forgefiends, the enemy has no use for his basic rifles at least until after he's killed some transports. Edit: The Forgefiend is also better offensively against Flyers/FMCs since it doesn't lose as much accuracy. On the other hand, it is weaker against infantry units while the Oblits have better anti-infantry firepower available. Oblits are also better in CC. That's why they're (rightly) considered better overall units. Just not at the specific task of killing medium-heavy armor at long range, which is actually a major problem for Chaos Marines.

As for the Maulerfiend, I always run it with Lasher Tendrils, which makes it a serious threat against MCs and Dreads. Run them in pairs with other fast threats (Spawn with Bikelords), and have both of them attack the same MC to lower it to one attack. They only have 2 attacks base, but have 2 weapons to raise that to 3, 4 on the charge. With 4 attacks at S10/AP2, that usually does destroy vehicles on the charge. They're not dominant, but for 135 pts they are pretty solid at what they do.

What you cannot do, with either, is run 1-2 of them and no other comparable threats. You can't run 1-2 Forgefiends with no other armor, and be surprised when they die fast and do nothing. Run them with several other Walkers, Preds, Rhinos, even Heldrakes, and they become a lot more useful. Similarly, 1-2 Maulerfiends thrown in the enemy's face without support are just melta bait. Give them a screen of Spawn to keep opponents more than 6" from them and to provide another fast threat, maybe a Mace Prince or Be'lakor moving at 12" with them, and you have several threats that are dangerous and offer a likely Turn 2 charge. If your opponents shoots them down, then probably the rest of the advancing units reach CC untouched.

However, everyone says that Wave Serpents are great. Well, take just one in an otherwise Infantry/Bike army, and see how well it does. Or how 3 Oblits do in an army that otherwise is all Mechanized. When a unit is inherently exposed by itself, either through its defensive stats or through its position on the field, it rarely does well. The only exception are those units that are designed specifically to be extremely tough, and that usually pay for it by losing firepower or mobility... Hammernators, GUO, etc. So it's not a real argument against Fiends that they have to be fielded along with several other threats of the same genre... that argument would work well against a lot of other units that are considered good.

[Demonus]

Getting your maulerfiends into cc is a bonus, not a must.

Do they have guns on them? Id say getting MF into cc is definitely a must if Im using them.

[Charon]

There are units which can be worth their points without doing even a single point of damage :eek:
Every single weapon aimed at them is not going to hit another (more deadly) unit. Pressure is worth points even if this "pressure" doesnt kill a single model.

[Caitsidhe]

There are units which can be worth their points without doing even a single point of damage :eek:
Every single weapon aimed at them is not going to hit another (more deadly) unit. Pressure is worth points even if this "pressure" doesnt kill a single model.

And we will have to agree to disagree about the Maulerfiend being one of them. If you hold it back for "pressure" I expect in some sort of countercharge threat it dies to any number of the effective long range vehicle killing devices available to every army. If you put this paperweight on the table it has only one choice, run at a choice target as fast as possible. The only real strength of the Maulerfiend is that it is fast. That's it. A Helbrute actually has a a better WS than the Maulerfiend just as it has a better BS than the idiotic Forgefiend. It can pack very effective weapons and is more than capable of ripping open most cans. The only thing it doesn't have is the speed of the Maulerfiend. When it comes right down to it, despite all its impressive size a model, the Maulerfiend is NOTHING but a secondrate Dread that has sacrificed accuracy and shooting to be fast (and pays a premium for it). No amount of dressing this sow's ear is going to make it a silk purse.

[Caitsidhe]

My equations show me that the Forgefiend is better, per point, at killing vehicles of AV 12+ (and probably better vs AV11+) than Obliterators.

Can you explain your formula, i.e. how you came to this calculation?


While not necessarily tougher, it works better in an otherwise armor-heavy list. The Oblits would eat all of the anti-infantry fire while the vehicles eat the anti-tank, but if you replace Oblits with Forgefiends, the enemy has no use for his basic rifles at least until after he's killed some transports. Edit: The Forgefiend is also better offensively against Flyers/FMCs since it doesn't lose as much accuracy. On the other hand, it is weaker against infantry units while the Oblits have better anti-infantry firepower available. Oblits are also better in CC. That's why they're (rightly) considered better overall units. Just not at the specific task of killing medium-heavy armor at long range, which is actually a major problem for Chaos Marines.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Exactly what kinds of forces are you facing? The units I face, even infantry, always have some nice special weapons more than capable of killing a Forge Fiend. What is more, the Forgefiend is slow and has a SHORT range. It will be outgunned by the opponents firing their long range vehicle killing stuff and likely be dead before it is within range to fire its own. The Forge Fiend cannot Deep Strike. Nobody is going to fire anything at the Forge Fiend until they are required to do so, i.e. it is a paperweight until it can get into range. Unlike the Maulerfiend, it isn't particularly fast. By my calculation, the Obliterators can be firing at nearly ANY target on the board from the first tun on by simply choosing the appropriate gun, while the Forge Fiend either sits there or moves forward hoping to get someone in range.


As for the Maulerfiend, I always run it with Lasher Tendrils, which makes it a serious threat against MCs and Dreads. Run them in pairs with other fast threats (Spawn with Bikelords), and have both of them attack the same MC to lower it to one attack. They only have 2 attacks base, but have 2 weapons to raise that to 3, 4 on the charge. With 4 attacks at S10/AP2, that usually does destroy vehicles on the charge. They're not dominant, but for 135 pts they are pretty solid at what they do.

Again, they will only have a "chance" of doing something if they manage the alpha strike, i.e. they get the charge. Most savy players gleefully watch you approach and charge you and turn the damn thing off like a light. I have yet to lose a single model to a Maulerfiend. This is in part because you run into them few and far between (because they are awful) and because the moment one is spotted you simply kill it.


What you cannot do, with either, is run 1-2 of them and no other comparable threats. You can't run 1-2 Forgefiends with no other armor, and be surprised when they die fast and do nothing. Run them with several other Walkers, Preds, Rhinos, even Heldrakes, and they become a lot more useful. Similarly, 1-2 Maulerfiends thrown in the enemy's face without support are just melta bait. Give them a screen of Spawn to keep opponents more than 6" from them and to provide another fast threat, maybe a Mace Prince or Be'lakor moving at 12" with them, and you have several threats that are dangerous and offer a likely Turn 2 charge. If your opponents shoots them down, then probably the rest of the advancing units reach CC untouched.

And just how big a game are we talking about (in a scale of points) wherein you believe these things can be made functional? :D Forgefiends are overpriced and expensive. They take up Heavy Slots. Maulerfiends are cheaper but still steal slots. With this otherArmor you speak of (and other comparable threats) I'm wondering about an army composition. Can you give us a point scale and a sample list?


However, everyone says that Wave Serpents are great. Well, take just one in an otherwise Infantry/Bike army, and see how well it does. Or how 3 Oblits do in an army that otherwise is all Mechanized. When a unit is inherently exposed by itself, either through its defensive stats or through its position on the field, it rarely does well. The only exception are those units that are designed specifically to be extremely tough, and that usually pay for it by losing firepower or mobility... Hammernators, GUO, etc. So it's not a real argument against Fiends that they have to be fielded along with several other threats of the same genre... that argument would work well against a lot of other units that are considered good.

I'm not sure what you are talkinga bout here at all.

[Charon]

And we will have to agree to disagree about the Maulerfiend being one of them. If you hold it back for "pressure" I expect in some sort of countercharge threat it dies to any number of the effective long range vehicle killing devices available to every army. If you put this paperweight on the table it has only one choice, run at a choice target as fast as possible. The only real strength of the Maulerfiend is that it is fast. That's it. A Helbrute actually has a a better WS than the Maulerfiend just as it has a better BS than the idiotic Forgefiend. It can pack very effective weapons and is more than capable of ripping open most cans. The only thing it doesn't have is the speed of the Maulerfiend. When it comes right down to it, despite all its impressive size a model, the Maulerfiend is NOTHING but a secondrate Dread that has sacrificed accuracy and shooting to be fast (and pays a premium for it). No amount of dressing this sow's ear is going to make it a silk purse.

And this is exactly what you are doing with him. You run as fast as possible. You dont expect him to enter melee but if he does, its a bonus. You dont run him alone, you run him with 2 friends. And you run him with a whole army of 12"+ moving units (or shock or outflank). This is the only way I found to make it work. It is surely not the best list around but it does work at an ok-ish level.

[Caitsidhe]

And this is exactly what you are doing with him. You run as fast as possible. You dont expect him to enter melee but if he does, its a bonus. You dont run him alone, you run him with 2 friends. And you run him with a whole army of 12"+ moving units (or shock or outflank). This is the only way I found to make it work. It is surely not the best list around but it does work at an ok-ish level.

Understood. You aren't saying it is a good model. You are saying how to make the best of it. For my own part, I make the best of it buy doing a chopshop on the model for parts to build cool looking units that have a place ont he battlefield. :D For the Maulerfiend to have been functional, for me, raise it to WS-5, add one additional attack or the ability to buy up more of its special triggered attacks, four Hull Points, and the ability to Jink due to speed and manuverability, i.e. a giant, graceful machine cat. It would still have been vulnerable to weapons that ignore cover, but it would have (at least) been good at it job. Granted, I would have happily paid up to 150pts for it then. *Perhaps up to two hundred points depending on the cost of each extra attack (special or normal).

[Stoeks88]

Sadly I am torn on this one as well, at least as far as the maulerfiend is concerned. I have no experience with the forgefiend, but I can see its potential. My maulerfiend, only ever have run one, has performed well when he makes it into CC. Those instances have only occurred due to target priority, had belakor another daemon prince nurglle bikers and and a las pred, but opponents couldn't decide what to kill first. But, when he does catch their eye, he usually doesn't survive past turn two, leaving him dead in the middle of the board. 5++is nice, but doesn't help with a lot of ap2 fire which is pretty easy to come by nowadays. The maulerfiend is so good, IF he doesn't die before tearing open a Leman Russ or a land raider, but even better against buildings.

[DWest]

Sadly I am torn on this one as well, at least as far as the maulerfiend is concerned. I have no experience with the forgefiend, but I can see its potential. My maulerfiend, only ever have run one, has performed well when he makes it into CC. Those instances have only occurred due to target priority, had belakor another daemon prince nurglle bikers and and a las pred, but opponents couldn't decide what to kill first. But, when he does catch their eye, he usually doesn't survive past turn two, leaving him dead in the middle of the board.
Here's the thing; if your opponent decided to kill your Maulerfiend instead of Be'lakor or a tooled-up bike squad, it still did its job. I think the first thing that a player should do to help themselves improve their game is take the phrase "made back its points" out behind the shed and shoot it, then bury it in an unmarked grave. This maybe made sense back in 3rd/4th where every game was kill 'em all, and you scored VP equal to a model's cost. In the era of objectives, however, it's somewhere between meaningless and actively harmful. You have to assume some of your units are going to die without having done anything actively useful, so if you can force that choice and move the rest of your army to take advantage of the situation, you'll be in a better position even though your opponent has killed one of your units. The Maulerfiend is well-suited to that purpose for CSM especially since if the opponent doesn't take the bait or better yet, tries and fails to kill it, it can tear a huge chunk out of the opponent's back line.

[marful]

Here's the thing; if your opponent decided to kill your Maulerfiend instead of Be'lakor or a tooled-up bike squad, it still did its job.
But it takes much much less to kill a mualerfiend than Be'lakor or a nurgle bike squad.


The Maulerfiend is well-suited to that purpose for CSM especially since if the opponent doesn't take the bait or better yet, tries and fails to kill it, it can tear a huge chunk out of the opponent's back line.
I beg to differ. With a WS of 3 and only 2 base attacks? It's going to take a Maulerfiend 2 turns on average to kill a vehicle. Combine this with the fact that it won't reach the enemy until turn two at best, and it will be able to kill two things through the rest of the game? That is, of course, if it doesn't die to some stray shooting, or heaven forbid, it gets assaulted by anything with a decent weapon skill.

[DWest]

But it takes much much less to kill a mualerfiend than Be'lakor or a nurgle bike squad.
Yes and no. First off, AV 12 backed up by 5++ is not the tinfoil you make it out to be, and neither is T6 3+ Sv unbeatable. More importantly though, a unit has to fire all its weapons at a single target (maybe splitting off one shot to something else with Split Fire), which means that the Maulerfiend could very likely absorb the same proportion of an opponent's shooting even if it went down to a smaller number of hits.


I beg to differ. With a WS of 3 and only 2 base attacks? It's going to take a Maulerfiend 2 turns on average to kill a vehicle. Combine this with the fact that it won't reach the enemy until turn two at best, and it will be able to kill two things through the rest of the game? That is, of course, if it doesn't die to some stray shooting, or heaven forbid, it gets assaulted by anything with a decent weapon skill.
Its three attacks come at S10 AP2, which means if it touches a stationary vehicle, that vehicle automatically dies, barring some exceptional cases. Also, if I don't manage to kill the vehicle, but manage to get a Weapon Destroyed taking out the only dangerous weapon, or an Immobilized that leaves the vehicle with its firing arc pointed away from the action, I'm not obligated to stay there and put the vehicle out of its misery. Furthermore, I would aim my 'fiend at either the vehicle most capable of destroying it, or most capable of destroying my nurgle bikers, which increases my chances of doing more damage next turn. Or better yet, hit a large scoring unit, forcing them to consolidate to me and off their objective.

[Caitsidhe]

And yet, the Fiends simply don't have a presence. Look, you can try to "spin" the piles of junk any way you like, but it isn't going to make them good units. The Maulerfiend is really only suitable to killing vehicles and buildings and doesn't, in fact, do any better a job at it than many of our other choices in CSM. This makes it an overpriced, over specialized waste of space. The Forge Fiend is an expensive waste of space, with inadequate range and inferior firepower to most of our other choices. It isn't just that they suffer by comparison to the selections in other armies, they suffer badly against the other choices in the own armies. They look good. They can't fight their way out of paper bags.

I am a firm believer in a unit being able to earn its points back. I do not think this simply rule of thumb applies any less today than it did before. Successful units inflict at LEAST as much damage as it cost to place them on the board. All units can be used to tie the opponent up or threaten, so trying to use that as an excuse to say the Maulerfiend is good is an unsupportable argument. It isn't that threatening. Nobody is anymore scared of it than they are anything else. So, when we have troops that regularly influct 2-3x more damage than they cost to put on the board, why in the name of sanity would you want to put a unit on the table that STRUGGLES to inflict enough damage to even pay for itself?

[DWest]

Again, "earn your points back" is the completely wrong way to look at things, even if you could tally it fairly. Example: my IG Company Command Squad costs 100 points. It almost never fires a shot. Therefore, by your metric it is obviously a bad unit because it never earns its points back. Obviously, a Maulerfiend isn't a PCS, but if you're willing to understand strategy rather than be pedantic, you understand my point. If the 'fiend gets sacrificed to let another unit make combat, it is not fair to give the other unit 100% of the points value of the subsequent kill. Likewise, somebody's going to get stuck sitting on an objective. That unit isn't going to make its points back most times, but it will win you the game, which is the more important metric.

Also, please stop bringing up the Forgefiend as if the two types were one in the same. That's a straw-man argument and you should know better.

[Caitsidhe]

Again, "earn your points back" is the completely wrong way to look at things, even if you could tally it fairly. Example: my IG Company Command Squad costs 100 points. It almost never fires a shot. Therefore, by your metric it is obviously a bad unit because it never earns its points back. Obviously, a Maulerfiend isn't a PCS, but if you're willing to understand strategy rather than be pedantic, you understand my point. If the 'fiend gets sacrificed to let another unit make combat, it is not fair to give the other unit 100% of the points value of the subsequent kill. Likewise, somebody's going to get stuck sitting on an objective. That unit isn't going to make its points back most times, but it will win you the game, which is the more important metric.

Also, please stop bringing up the Forgefiend as if the two types were one in the same. That's a straw-man argument and you should know better.

Actually, no. If the IG Company is STILL on the board, i.e. not destroyed and holding something it has earned its points. If it is dead and didn't kill anything equalling its points, then no it isn't worth putting out there. I put Cultists on the board regularly, and they almost NEVER kill anything. They are, however, still on the table at the end of my games and they are always camped on an objective. The Maulerfiend will not still be on the table, and it is not likely to have killed anything equal to what it costs.

In regards to strategy, tactics, and logistics, I think I have a fair working knowledge. Your demeanor and condescending attitude do you no credit. Let's play. We can find a way online if not in the flesh, and you can demonstrate your superiority to me. I base my own estimates of my abilties on my success rate, and the fact that most of my army is composed of Prize Support. I am also a pretty fair Chess player, so I am familiar with the basics of trades and sacrifice. So, when and where can we throw down?

[DWest]

I find it funny that you're saying I'm the one with the condescending attitude. That being said, what options are there for online 40k? I won't be able to set anything up until at least Monday, but I'm game any time after that.

[jenkatron]

Ill come back in on this as I've just read the above and feel there are some misrepresented opinions presented 'as facts', mostly about the Maulerfiend's weaknesses.

- BUT ITS PAPER THIN WITH ONLY AV12 WITH A 5++ SAVE
Survivability is a lot about deployment and then movement, and the Mauler is king of all walkers here because of his speed and Seige Crawler rules, meaning you can put it in and out of terrain without penalty. Where possible (if Im not going first), I deploy behind rubble/ruin with a cover save, away from where his big anti tank guns are, 5++ invul. If on my turn there is nothing within viable charge range I run him up 12", and then further run (with fleet) in the assault phase into a ruin, or behind mid board rubble - where he can again get a 4+ cover 5++ invul. He also gets stealth for turn 1 if you're playing night fighting (if you play night fighting this is 50% of games), and if you can further get him to 75% obscured behind a chunk of LOS blocking or a ruin you can actually get to a magical 2+ cover save. Unlike any other vehicle in the game the mauler can dart into and out of cover, increasing his save - and helldog doesnt give a damn, he just moves back out at full speed as normal. As a Daemon he can also benefits from the invul multipliers if you are running any of the Daemonology spells (lvl 1 spell cursed Earth) or even the Grimoire.

- BUT IF IT DIES WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER BRINGING ONE
I think this has been covered already, but its basically a simple army list building concept of having better lists where everything in your list presents a high level of threat to some aspect of the opponents army. Its simply not faesible, especially now in 7th to have all of your army in unkillable Invisible Death Stars, you now need more multiple units (where missions have less reliance on kill points and more on different objective grabbing) and to be a good player you have got to be able to occasionally sacrifice/remove a model without getting too upset . My lists always include redundancy (multiple anti tank/infantry/air options), so if one falls there is something else to back it up. I agree with some others who post that multiple fast unit is the way to go, but it depends on where and how much anti vehicle your opponent has whether its necessary to push everything up in a cluster. Maulerfiends I find are usually preferred targets for my opponents, even if there are more devastating things in my list - nobody seems to like to risk getting hit with multiple powerfists and melta at rear of their shiny tank armor. Nothing is useless in lists I try to build - everything has to have a clear role/task or it gets cut out as I try to maximise point efficiency for every model. If my key anti tank in a small 1000pt list is a Maulerfiend and a Vindicator with a dozer blade (125 pts each), I usually find that my opponent is sh**ting themselves about both, but they usually try to kill the mauler first. AV12 is easier to pop than front AV13. I am usually happy for them to focus their firepower on the mauler, they are both great anti tank options for my army but the mauler has much more survivability that the opponent doesn't always appreciate, it will always have at least a 5++ save (the tank will not), it has IWND so can regain hull points (more important in 7th as HP stripping is more prevalent - you better wreck it or it will come back), and it cant be assaulted/melta bombed nearly as easily as a tank can, because it has its own WS and will strike back before you at I1.

- BUT THE DREADNOUGHT OR HELBRUTE IS ACTUALLY BETTER AT ANTI VEHICLE
The maulerfiend is MASSIVELY better than either of these at wrecking buildings and any high AV vehicle, and this is his main task in my list. He gets there quicker, auto hits buildings and anything immobilised, with LOTS MORE hits and more of them DEVASTATING (4 x S10 AP2, 2 x S8 AP1 Armorbane). Goodnight Vienna. I wont compare it direct to a dreadnought as it is not a CSM model - so the CSM dread (helbrute) has a multimelta as standard, but no deep strike capability meaning this is primarily for defensive anti vehicle (drop pods or something advancing on your deployment zone). Helbrute moves slowly, its only got 12" range for 1 shot armorbane, and offers no real pressure on vehicles further away. Plus Helbrute has no 5++ save, is slowed by terrain, and has a dumb crazed rule that will make him do something you didnt want him to do. You can swap out for a better shooting platform, and admittedly the missile/autocannon helbrute is not bad for anti light vehicle (consider that loadout a budget forgefiend!). You can swap out melta for TL lascannon and this makes it the same price as the mauler, but considering that the melta/TL lascannon loadouts are single shot anti AV weapons (in a 7th ed where vehicles are a lot less likely to get one-shotted), you need more volume of fire. The mauler has 4-6 s10 AP2 (0-2 melta attacks) attacks on the charge, versus the helbrute with only 3 (if charged by other models, its even more of a spread - the Helbrute has 2 attacks, the mauler has 3-5). ALSO - the Daemonforge rule just adds to the devastation, effectively a close combat variant of tank hunter for the turn when you get to punch that AV14 raider/Superheavy tank in the face. People above said it will take 3 turns to take out a vehicle. It will usually take out all but the hardiest vehicles in 1 turn, maybe 2 if you roll particularly bad to hit. It will ruin buildings, and usually with AP+ penetrating hits that will help to kill any occupants.

- BUT ITS ONLY WS 3 AND HAS 2 ATTACKS
There are many comments about 'if only it were WS 4', and it only has 2 attacks at base. It has 2 CC fists. You will be charging it into CC. Thats 4 attacks at base when charging, and he gets bonus attacks for any hits. WS 4 means NOTHING against most vehicles and buildings. They hit on a 3+, just as often as WS 4. I'll just repeat thatbecause thats important. The Maulerfiend is a tank and building puncher, and does that job point for point better than EVERYTHING in the game. Non-immobilised Tanks have WS 1 and buildings are hit automatically. Who cares about WS 3?!

- BUT THE DREADNOUGHT OR HELBRUTE IS ACTUALLY BETTER ANTI INFANTRY
This is more of a valid argument, because the WS 3 will give MEQ a hitting on 3's rather than 4's. However, consider that hitting on 4's is still most likely for the mauler, the survivability (5++) is much better for the daemon engine, and consider that the biggest dangers (power fists/hammers/meltabombs) are all going to swing LAST. The Mauler is still going to punch back MORE times than any of these units, but either way I would suggest that if you targeted or put yourself in for an infantry assault it was because you couldnt find a better high point juicy AV based target.


=====
In sum:
Mauler 'Seige Crawler' rule can be exploited to get cover better than any other walker.
Mauler is a BIG threat for its points value that will draw your opponents firepower from your other big hitters.
Mauler is your ultimate homewrecker vs buildings.
Mauler is better in CC vs high AV tanks than other walkers, AND it is more likely to get there.
Mauler is still more effective in CC than most walkers vs any infantry, AND is more likely to get there.
WS 3 is largely insignificant, if used right it hits on 3's regardless.


It has no guns. Who cares, it has two fists, magma cutters and a mean attitude.

[Caitsidhe]

I find it funny that you're saying I'm the one with the condescending attitude. That being said, what options are there for online 40k? I won't be able to set anything up until at least Monday, but I'm game any time after that.

There isn't anything funny about it. I was addressing the topic. You chose to insult me by making personal attacks. I'll look around to see what options are available.

[jenkatron]

I'm not sure where or why this descended into a lack of humor/condescension, but its easy to make a point without saying anything personal at all, and it makes your argument appear more rational!

Lets keep adult and remain on topic?


----------

I had another thought to add to the "ITS ONLY WS 3" criticism, that the oft-overlooked 'Fear' rule means that even when the Maulerfiend gets into combat with a model with a higher WS, it has to pass a LD check or the opponent drops to WS1 and you get to hit it on 3's anyway!

Thats all I've got for the moment!

[DWest]

I had another thought to add to the "ITS ONLY WS 3" criticism, that the oft-overlooked 'Fear' rule means that even when the Maulerfiend gets into combat with a model with a higher WS, it has to pass a LD check or the opponent drops to WS1 and you get to hit it on 3's anyway!
The only problem with that idea is that almost all of the things you really want 3s to hit have either "And They Shall Know No Fear", actual Fearless, or Ld 9+, meaning the Fear virtually never kicks in. I'll admit, I've charged Daemon units into enemy models before and had the opponent ask if he has to make a Fear check, and I've literally replied "a who what now?" But that's an argument for another day.

[Lord Krungharr]

I've used the Maulerfiend I think 4 times, and it made it into combat once and crunched a Wave Serpent, and then another Wave Serpent (that was very satisfying). However the other times it got Immobilized via massed S6 shooting, or just exploded via drop pod melta.

It's a neat looking model to be sure, and I think can be a good unit, but it's certainly the best unit. 2 Maulerfiends running behind 2 Land Raiders (1 dedicated with Terminators) and 2 Rhinos, that could be a very nice counter-punch. I think they could work best as guard dogs like that.

Forgefiend I've only used twice, and both were on a Skyshield. That performed well, taking out a GK Storm Raven once, and a Fire Prism the other game, though that was in 6th edition. Of course glancing hits can wreck, but not being able to explode with AP4 now kinda hurts. I think they're a bit steep in points, but I do like the idea of them being AA. The Ectoplasma ones seem to short range, and I would definitely keep them on a Skyshield as part of a firebase, so maybe just the plasma-head could be worth it if some assault unit gets too close.

[DWest]

I would like the Forgefiend to be good, but it just doesn't get the job done, especially since there's the Chaos Contemptor Dreadnaught in the newest version of IA: Apoc. It's somewhat more expensive than the Forgefiend (in both regards), but considerably more survivable, with 13 front armor and the Hellfire reactor which gives it a 4++ against glancing hits and 6++ against penetrating hits. The Chaos Contemptor also has a very wide range of options, and can be put into a Mortis configuration.

[clever handle]

I'll echo most in that I love the maulerfiend and haven't even considered looking twice at the forgefiend. The FW decimator is a cooler model, has neat rules, but similarly suffers from being BS3. I would suggest that GW NEEDS to get over their whole "daemons are only WS/BS 3" kick... the benefits of daemonic possession just simply aren't worth the kick in offensive output - for a 20 point "upgrade" it should bloody give WS5 and keep BS at 4 - or be free.

[Torys]

I have had mixed results with Forgefiends. They are pretty easy to kill, 3 HP just isn't enough. The double hades are usually effective for me, the plasma cannon rarely seems to be worth it. taking 3" off the scatter dice is painful. I will use Daemonforge turn 1, and occasionally put prescience on it turn two. Two turns of hades with either of those buffs is where the unit earns its points. Daemonforge is what makes it potentially viable. Still feels pricey and a bit squishy; if it lives past turn 2 you're doing good.
For me, they compete with Autocannon Havocs. Which lose shots as they take wounds, and are susceptible to LD.

175 point FF: eight shots @ BS3, STR8, AP4, Daemonforge, Pinning - AR 12, 5+ Invuln
130 point Havocs: eight shots @ BS4, STR7 - MoN T5, 3+

Never used a Maulerfiend.