Bob Dylan Got It Right: These Times Are a'Changing

[Caitsidhe]

For whatever reason, Games Workshop (and there are several workable theories) is just throwing new books out helter skelter. The books aren't really new, anymore than 7th Edition was new. In most cases, they have simply cut up 6th Edition books to break parts of them into supplements and added a little bit of data that we would have though of as a Faq or Errata in the past. By in large our game company which claims it is a model company has put out more new books than models. They seem well on their way to being a publishing house. :D

In fairness, we did ask them to accelerate their release of books. Of course, what we (the consumers and players) had in mind was each codex being a single book and all released the same year to year and a half because they had been written and balanced against one another. What Games Workshop has in mind is something quite different. It is part rerelease everything so their unique names can be branded and establish the IPs they can defend, see if we are willing to pay 2-3 times as much for our Codex (now broken into multiple books), and effectively try to drive up the size of games. They are failing to understand certain things.

New names won't solve their problem. The people making after market product for them will not be stopped by this tactic. Now that legal cases have been fought the after market competitors know exactly how they can word things and be 100% legal. More to the point, in our niche market nobody is really confused about what models go with which set with or without names. Spamming us with books (still not balanced against one another) which are nothing more than breaking existing books up into multiple books and making minor changes merely increases the likelyhood that people will get them from other than ethical sources. It will not drive up the average point size of games in the United States because spamming rules only makes it all that more certain that event organizers will opt for lower point games and limited sources. In short, this is having the opposite effect that they wanted.

[vonDietdrich]

I agree.

I also learned a long time ago that making objective observations as part of a public discourse about GW is silly, because a large part of their demographic is very irrationally in love with the game. They will pay whatever price for books and buy models that seem ridiculous to those of us that are invested but concerned about Gee Dub's direction. Case in point, the apparent success of Imperial Knights as a codex, where you have people shelling out hundreds of dollars for an army of five models. The typical response of this crowd is 'no one is making you buy things' or 'stop being poor' or 'you're just whining because you have no life' (usually not with as much brevity). The typical response is to degrade the complainer to some strange sub-human mouth breathing sleazebag so that they can feel superior and not engage in an actual conversation about the issues because 'you're killing my vibe, man'.

If GW wants to be a publishing house, they should invest in proper publishing equipment to cut costs instead of cutting employees and stores. The bottom line would probably be comparable.

What essentially happened is that someone high up in GW (probably Kirby) realized they had a philosopher's stone in the 40k IP. They could essentially do whatever they wanted and basically print money because it's a great fictional setting with a huge following. They felt that they weren't charging high enough premiums for things that were already selling well (not understanding that the price point was part of why it sold so well), and are not only splitting up their codexes, they're also making it necessary to own 'more' codexes (that are each individually more expensive) because of the popularization and promotion of allies in the rules with mini-dexes like Inquisition, Imperial Knights, Militarum Tempestus, etc. This promotion is very obvious because it's a centerpiece of their marketing strategy.

I mean, the whole thing can be summarized by the current entry cost to the hobby. (Prices in USD and MSRP)

The Rules - $85
Hardback Codex of Your Choice - $49.50
Starting Army Package (approximately 1000 points) - $125 to $225
HQ clampack - $20
Paint Pots - $40 to $100, depending on faction and complexity of chosen scheme.
Hobby Supplies (glue, exacto knife, clippers, spraypaint primer) - $30

Potentially throw in Dark Vengeance at $55 to $110 (if you have someone to split it with and you manage to snag the mini rules or play regularly with a friend that does. Only applicable if you're looking to play Dark Angels or CSM, really. Otherwise it's even more start-up cost.)

Entering the hobby by itself (without going secondhand or ebay) is about minimum $350 dollars if you want to have a functionally playable army (and most people get into the hobby to play it). If you skimp on paints you can save $40 (I'm using the minimums of the price range I offered earlier), but you're still staring at $310 before tax.

Good luck trying to get your friends to play with that kind of price point. Just starting an army is practically similar to buying a next-gen gaming console, and requires WAY more work before you start getting any entertainment out of it. I really only purchase my GW merch on ebay for this reason.

The reason I bring all of this up is that all rules complaints are taking place in the same context as these start-up costs. Not only is the bar of entry to the hobby getting higher every year, but the rules are getting more expensive and worse (as in, not play-tested and with huge variations in quality between codexes and even internally in each codex, with certain entries that are not balanced against each other or even against different equipment options for the same entry. Many entries have options for gear that are obviously worse than comparable equipment options 100% of the time from a mechanical game standpoint.)

I feel that the rebranding may have been spurred by legal issues but has taken on a life of its own as an attempt to get more money out of each individual gamer that participates in the hobby. 'Super limited edition' sets have become much more popular (see Stormclaw, which was actually a good deal while it lasted).

The end result is that a lot of my friends and I are moving to more independent game companies and taking chances on different systems, which have provided us with a lot more entertainment and helped us grow our gaming group because of low cost of entry, simple and balanced rules (which make for shorter and more entertaining games, and shorter games = more games played per day = more involvement for more people), and less models to purchase and paint (which makes the games more appealing in a try before you commit sense).

I wish GW would see the error of their ways before something happens that jolts them awake, but I doubt it. I'd like to continue playing in the Warhammer universes but it's just not feasible with the state of the game rules as they are.

[Darren Richardson]

interesting discussion guys, but it's in the wrong forum, I've alerted a Mod to have it moved.

[40kGamer]

For whatever reason, Games Workshop (and there are several workable theories) is just throwing new books out helter skelter. The books aren't really new, anymore than 7th Edition was new. In most cases, they have simply cut up 6th Edition books to break parts of them into supplements and added a little bit of data that we would have though of as a Faq or Errata in the past. By in large our game company which claims it is a model company has put out more new books than models. They seem well on their way to being a publishing house. :D

It will not drive up the average point size of games in the United States because spamming rules only makes it all that more certain that event organizers will opt for lower point games and limited sources. In short, this is having the opposite effect that they wanted.

It's funny you mention the book releases. At the FLGS I work with, new Codices have been the bulk of their top selling GW products for years. So the new book spam may be a result of that also being globally true. Honestly, there are only so many marines they can sell before they saturate the model market (something that has likely happened already) but they can always move updated rules. A solid vote for them being a game company first and a model company second.

I really like the possibilities offered by the codex supplements. In practice most of them offer little more then expanded fluff but the the opportunity to flesh out niche armies is really cool... hopefully it is used this way in the future.

As for game size... the local events I attend have mostly decreased in points since we transitioned to 6th as the game simply takes longer. Lots more randomness...

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I also learned a long time ago that making objective observations as part of a public discourse about GW is silly, because a large part of their demographic is very irrationally in love with the game. They will pay whatever price for books and buy models that seem ridiculous to those of us that are invested but concerned about Gee Dub's direction.

I feel you here... People get very passionate about our hobby and a lot of folks go ballistic on both sides of any GW debate.


I mean, the whole thing can be summarized by the current entry cost to the hobby.

I would allow for about $1000 MSRP in USD to go from nothing to tournament army... plus 100s of hours needs set aside to paint and play with it so the barrier to entry is very high. This is why I always likes what I considered entry level games like Space Hulk to be brilliant where new people could be courted into the game through a small investment. Hopefully GW will bring this concept back in the future to keep snagging new players.

[BeardMonk]

Im not sure that the cost for starting the 40K is any better or worse than any of the other major systems. Dark Vengeance, a two person starter set is about £50. In that you get quickstart and full rules and two small, starter armies. A total of 49 models.

Warmachine two person starter set is about £68. In that you get quickstart and full rules and two small, starter armies. A total of 17 models.

If your getting into 40K as an adult, sharing with a mate, its about £25 each. Its the cost of a night out or a meal in a restaurant with drinks. If you decide you want to continue, then you start investing in paints etc at whatever speed you feel like. What I think GW lacks are the small starter kits for each force/race as Warmachine/Hordes does. The WM/H starter armies are about £30 each and include quickstart rules. If GW could create something at that scale and cost for 40K and fantasy, they could be onto a winner in terms of tempting new players.

[Caitsidhe]

Im not sure that the cost for starting the 40K is any better or worse than any of the other major systems. Dark Vengeance, a two person starter set is about £50. In that you get quickstart and full rules and two small, starter armies. A total of 49 models.

Warmachine two person starter set is about £68. In that you get quickstart and full rules and two small, starter armies. A total of 17 models.

If your getting into 40K as an adult, sharing with a mate, its about £25 each. Its the cost of a night out or a meal in a restaurant with drinks. If you decide you want to continue, then you start investing in paints etc at whatever speed you feel like. What I thing GW lacks are the small starter kits for each force/race as Warmachine/Hordes does. The WM/H starter armies are about £30 each and include quickstart rules. If GW could create something at that scale and cost for 40K and fantasy, they could be onto a winner in terms of tempting new players.

Except that 1. The Dark Vengence isn't even remotely equal. :D

[Wolfshade]

Something like a battalion box lite with a mini-codex thing?

[daboarder]

infinity you can get everything you need for less than a $120

[BeardMonk]

Something like a battalion box lite with a mini-codex thing?

Aie.

TBF Privateer Press units have a stat card that comes with it. Maybe just print the stats on a page on the back of the quickstart rules?

It would have to be small scale. 5 CSM, 8 Cultists and a Rhino (for example).