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drummerholt1234
08-03-2009, 06:18 PM
With the possible release of the new Tyrnaids codex sometime in the next year I though that I would make a thread where people could put what they want to see in the next dex.

I personally just want to see some point tweaks and a few new toys (mainly weapons) like a weapon with a flame template but I want the core of the army to work the same way!

Now go... and say what think should be in there!

Arschbombe
08-03-2009, 07:22 PM
I'd like to see the obvious things get fixed: symbiote rippers, thornback etc. Maybe letting venom cannons get more than glances, say -1 on the roll instead of -2.

Really what I want from the new nid release is some new plastic kits. I'd like to see a plastic tyrant, lictors, gargoyles, and raveners.

Madjob
08-03-2009, 07:46 PM
Lictors either need a buff to live up to their current point cost/anything close to it, or a serious point decrease. I still field them out of love for the appeal of the unit and the little things they can do, but the 160 points spent on a couple that show up, pop a carelessly placed tank or two at best, and is then blasted apart on the following turn stings a little.

Hormogaunts need a look over, they're a very awkward unit to handle considering their points, dedicating a Flyrant to babysit them is neither practical or always effective as the Hormogaunts can still potentially outpace their herder.

Obviously there are a lot of redundant biomorphs thanks to 5th edition rules, I'd like it if they were replaced with more...morphable (no pun intended) rules, I suppose? Instead of merely updating Thornback to somehow affect the new wound resolution for close combat, replace it with another effect that works on a more fundamental rule of the assault phase. Given that they've already started doing the former in the 5th edition codexes we've seen (such as the two standards for the IG), it's unlikely.

Raveners also need some help or at least an amendment to their Deep Strike like that of the Lictor, allowing them to assault afterwards - potent indeed considering their 12" assault range but most other assault units that can rely on deepstriking to get them into range have the additional benefit of at least above average resistance to shooting. The best Raveners can rely on is a 4+ save and their extra wound, and it's not like they can take any especially dangerous shooting weapons to have appear right next to a prime target. Perhaps if we got some sort of bio-acid flamer template weapon...

That's about all I can think of.

Miami
08-03-2009, 09:40 PM
I think new plastic kits are obvious, and WILL happen. Preferably, I would like to see a plastic Tyrant, Guard, Gargoyles, Raveners, and Lictors.

I think one of the biggest problems of the current dex is that Carnifexes are too good to pass up. Most competitive armies I see have at least three, even at 1500 points. They need some sort of points shift, both a base increase and an increase in the cost of their biomorphs. Part of me wants to say that they should just stay Heavies and get rid of the Elite fexes, but then all you'd see would be pimped out giant fexes and none of the smaller, more point friendly ones (which I like to see). Perhaps even a limit on how many can have some of the more powerful biomorphs, notably regeneration.

In general I'd like to see the codex return back to a more "horde" style. The 5th rules have helped a lot, but there's still ground to be covered. A lot of units (gargoyles, biovores, lictors) need a LOT of work to be playable at a competitive level, while some others (raveners, hormagaunts) need some slight tweaks.

And finally, I completely agree with you, drummerholt, that the Nids need need need! new symbiote weapons. At least one that can deal with a land raider, but mostly just for an increased variety.

I know this seems negative, but I think the current codex is good for "fun" games. It has a lot of flavor, and armies can be built in a lot of different ways. But the downfall is that on a competitive level I see mostly the same armies popping up again. I know all codexes can be like that, but it seems especially bad for the Nids.

drummerholt1234
08-03-2009, 09:49 PM
Yeah new plastics are a must lol.

New weapons are also a must.

One idea I have is the bio-cannon that is bio-titan but have it take up two weapon slots.

Another thing that I think is going to change alot is the lictor. Here is how I see it changing:


1. He will cost less (or have better stats to justify his points)
2. His Pheromone Trail power will be more like the Astropath in that it will be a +1 and reroll on the outflank chart (that's my guess)
3. He may have that power weapon power that the brood lord has.
4. He will have some different upgades that you can give him.
Thats just what I think will happen based on how the recent dexes have been writen (It's not a rumor just my guess).

BuFFo
08-03-2009, 10:43 PM
Leave canifexes as is. They are awesome.

What the army needs is to have Biovores, Spore Mines and Zoanthropes redone and buffed up so they can compete with the heavy slot.

Also.... the one thing people have asked for since the late 90's and still haven't gotten....

Plastic Gargoyles!!!!!

Return Rending to how it used to be, so Tyranid Rending can be feared again. Having Marines friggin SUCK UP and destroy rending for Tyranids in 4th edition was a travesty at best.

Why should Tyranid rending suffer because players backlashed GW's obvious idiocy for over powering Marine assault cannons?

Genestealers went from god like in 3rd edition to 'extra brood lord wounds' in 5th edition. Pretty sad. And CC warriors need a boost as well.

Bigred
08-03-2009, 11:03 PM
A squad of 3 Biovores needs to be a scary and viable heavy support option that can make any area of the table very uncofomfortable for the opponent to stay in.

Agreed on the Lictors... they suck now. I would push them towards a Marbo/Callidus reulset, so the most potent part of them is the fear and uncertainty they inflict on the PLAYER during deployment and early game.

AdamHarry
08-03-2009, 11:34 PM
Lictors either need a buff to live up to their current point cost/anything close to it, or a serious point decrease. I still field them out of love for the appeal of the unit and the little things they can do, but the 160 points spent on a couple that show up, pop a carelessly placed tank or two at best, and is then blasted apart on the following turn stings a little.


I'd pay 160 pts to drop a 200 pt tank. or two. I'd call that a job well done.

I think the points cost for lictors is where they need to be, but they do need some better rules. Especially with the terrain changes in 5th. they need rules like marbo for deployment. I'd also like to see what someone else mentioned about the pheromone trails treating like the IG guys that give bonuses to reserve rolls. They could also use some type of "always wounds on 3+" or a power-weapon type attack.

I'd like to see gaunts be able to go up buildings without having to pay for flesh hooks They should be built in, or come standard (stupid 'moves like beasts' - ie, cant get to 2nd floor of a building).

Plastic gargoyles. yes please.

I like the fexes and they tyrants as they are. some of the other choices need some work to make them viable. biovores come to mind. Zoanthropes...could use some attention too. Make them plastic for starters heh.

I'd like to see more Nid warriors too. make them cheaper and increase their max unit size from 3 to 5...maybe even 10. that would be freakin scary.

One last thing - Special Nid Characters. I always thought Old One-eye was cool. maybe a little ridiculous and over powered, but really cool.

Madjob
08-04-2009, 07:29 AM
I'd pay 160 pts to drop a 200 pt tank. or two. I'd call that a job well done.

I think the points cost for lictors is where they need to be, but they do need some better rules. Especially with the terrain changes in 5th. they need rules like marbo for deployment. I'd also like to see what someone else mentioned about the pheromone trails treating like the IG guys that give bonuses to reserve rolls. They could also use some type of "always wounds on 3+" or a power-weapon type attack.

Certainly that'd be a job well done, but it isn't what usually happens. I've had a Lictor break a Russ over two turns and that was thanks to my opponent sending it off unsupported, but that's the only time I can think of them making their points back that easily. Usually I get a cheap transport if I'm lucky, and sometimes I don't. Regardless it still feels like a waste, I'd love to be using their Hit and Run to pop in and out of cover after each assault, but their survivability against most things with a WS score is low and obviously you can't use it against vehicles.

Giving their attacks the Broodlord ability would be definitely useful, it'd give them much better chances at hurting a unit enough to live through their following attacks. Boosting his armor save by a point would also be nice.

Xas
08-04-2009, 07:38 AM
I'd like to have some workable antitank that is not based on monsters in melee.

and lifte the 0-1 limits forflyrants, lictors, tropes and biowhores.also fiy their KP issues.

add the usuall "everything not much palyed gets 25% cheaper" as well as uses for redundant biomorphs and I'm happy :)

Arschbombe
08-04-2009, 07:41 AM
The nid special character comment just spurred some not-so-random thoughts....

What if they take a cue from the DoW II game with the Lictor Alpha, Tyrant and Ravener Alpha HQ choices and mix them with the special character army effects in the SM codex so that choosing a different HQ allows for different army builds? Something along the lines of Pedro chanigng sternguard to scoring might be Ravener Alpha lets raveners be scoring units. Tyrant with wings lets gargoyles be scoring etc etc.

npullan
08-04-2009, 07:52 AM
I just can't believe no one has yet brought up the most obvious point of 5th edition.

Synapse.

Thanks to the changes in combat rules, you can no longer tarpit units with Gaunts while your Warriors and MCs do all the heavy lifting.

I would like to see a change in the Synapse rules that allows the Tyranid player to choose whether they pass or fail any moral checks required. Seems more fluffy as the hive mind is incredibly cunning and wouldn't want all of its creatures to ALWAYS pass. AND since you technically pass the morale check your wounds won't double. I want to see (and use) swarms of gaunts again.

That and what has been said of Biovores and Lictors really sum up my feelings on the Tyranids.

VinceBlack
08-04-2009, 10:56 AM
I just can't believe no one has yet brought up the most obvious point of 5th edition.

Synapse.

Thanks to the changes in combat rules, you can no longer tarpit units with Gaunts while your Warriors and MCs do all the heavy lifting.

I would like to see a change in the Synapse rules that allows the Tyranid player to choose whether they pass or fail any moral checks required. Seems more fluffy as the hive mind is incredibly cunning and wouldn't want all of its creatures to ALWAYS pass. AND since you technically pass the morale check your wounds won't double. I want to see (and use) swarms of gaunts again.

That and what has been said of Biovores and Lictors really sum up my feelings on the Tyranids.

I agree this is what has hurt the idea of waves of nids moving across the table. Maybe a rule that allows them to suffer no additional wounds as long as they are outnumbering a squad 2 to 1.

Lux
08-04-2009, 12:02 PM
I wholeheartedly agree to the tarpit issue with gaunts. Something to keep them viable would be great. I'd even go so far to say that hormagaunts could keep the same stats and points if that 'no extra wounds if outnumbering' were added in.


I would like to see some viable anti-tank options other than carnifexes. One of the reasons gunfexes and boomfexes (barbed strangler/scything talon) are so popular is because they are the best anti-vehicle options in the list. This fits the background, but also goes a long way towards assuring that a tournament list will include at least 3-4 carnifexes simply to deal with the current vehicle-heavy meta game. This is boring from a list-design perspective and simply from the perspective of having/facing a tactically varied army.

Several things they could do to fix this are:

An army-wide rule where any model without a gun automatically gains fleet of foot.
Currently CC-only fexes, tyrants, and warriors are still considered too slow to really provide solid anti-tank options and front-line synapse in the case of the warriors. Giving those models fleet would go at least a little ways towards improving close-combat-only models versus hybrid shooting/combat or all-shooting options.


Greater access, and perhaps cheaper points for bio plasma.
Even CC units get faster, they still have some problems hitting moving vehicles. Often needing 4's or even 6's to hit a vehicle means that even a charging CC fex might hit only once or twice, and even though the MC rules and high str almost assure a penetrating hit, each penetrating hit still only has a 1/3 chance to kill the vehicle. When it comes to warriors, genestealers, raveners, tyrants, and other models with a strength of 6 or less that need a good armor pen roll to damage a vehicle, the odds go even lower.

If the models need 6's, such as vs fast vehicles, there's little chance even a carnifex will take the thing out unless it gets at least 2-3 rounds to do so. 'Why is that a problem?' you ask? Because just getting to the vehicle, even with fleet rolls and running can take 2-3 turns, and thats if the vehicle isn't being intentionally moved to try and stay away from the onrushing carnifex. That means a CC fex may get just 1 CC phase to kill the valkyrie/waveserpent/hellhound during an entire game, while that vehicle can zoom around a contest objectives. What that example shows is that the tyranid player should take some ranged anti-tank in a balanced list to give himself more chances to kill those vehicles. The problem is that having ranged AT be the ONLY really viable way to kill vehicles results in very few CC fexes being fielded.



Lux

Madjob
08-04-2009, 12:26 PM
An army-wide rule where any model without a gun automatically gains fleet of foot.
Currently CC-only fexes, tyrants, and warriors are still considered too slow to really provide solid anti-tank options and front-line synapse in the case of the warriors. Giving those models fleet would go at least a little ways towards improving close-combat-only models versus hybrid shooting/combat or all-shooting options.

I can see some people really finding this to be ridiculous, a monstrous creature with fleet is a scary prospect, and a flyrant with it is downright horrifying. It's definitely a solution but it might be a little much. I can definitely say it'd be nice if the mid-size gribblies like Lictors and Warriors had fleet.


even though the MC rules and high str almost assure a penetrating hit, each penetrating hit still only has a 1/3 chance to kill the vehicle. When it comes to warriors, genestealers, raveners, tyrants, and other models with a strength of 6 or less that need a good armor pen roll to damage a vehicle, the odds go even lower.

On this note a thought occurred to me - I'm not much of a fan of Crushing Claws for CC 'fexes because they only get 1 more attack on average than a 'fex decked out with two sets of scything talons, and are of course much more expensive. Not a good trade off in my eyes, but thinking about a biomorph to pump up 'fex damage against vehicles, Crushing Claws could be reworked so that the attacks from a model with them count as AP 1 hits against vehicles, but no longer replace the carnifex's attacks with a d6 roll. Much fluffier considering the biomorph's appearance.

Spellscape
08-04-2009, 04:45 PM
I don't know but to me is simply stupid that tyrands have only one option of INV save 6+
This is stupid - but Death Cult Assassin in 5+

Gaunts are now just stupid option (they cant' charge because all die in the same turn)
Raveners - I don't know what army is afraid of them. Their cover save is nonexistent at best.
Biovores - fun in friendly games - but really unplayable if you play on even smallest tournament

Biomorphs - half of them are no use - for example - Scary in theory winged warriors are stupid in real play - they don't have ANY saves 90% of play time, because they are too big and much higher than gaunts - genesteales can screen them - but guys, really - who would play genestealers that way.
Carnifex - big scary CC monster with 2 A??? Are you kidding? almost every opponent kills in with Power first/Hammer or any other similar style even when Carnifex charged. Any one asked why BS2 monster is best ranged weapon Tyranids can have - at least it kills almost anything with shooting. I'd say its BEST CC :confused: shooting monster in whole game - anyone notice that even sounds stupid? Carnifex always CC in 40K fiction and GW promote it as CC monstrosity. Great work - even IG squad with Power Fist kills it in CC.
Yes to prevent use of ranged weapons codex gives us "only glancing" rule - great. I wonder how GW managed in testing to kill Eldars and Tau tanks - I'd like to see theirs CC lists that can kill ANY tank or prevent Skimers to take back objectives on the last turn.
Also I like that Ork now cheaper than gaunt. Same for IG.

And on top of all we have CC oriented army that almost every time plays as ranged.

I love my tyranids - and want them to be CC horde army that's all

MrMike85
08-04-2009, 04:55 PM
The only thing i am scared about the new codex is that they will get rid of the two twin liked devourers on tyrants. It is honestly the best weapon the tyranids have at this point.

Spellscape
08-04-2009, 04:58 PM
Not biggest problem if tyranids would get something else
I'd say Dark Eldars , Inqusition are much more deserving new codex - they not bad - just old
Tyranid codex now not bad - but 90% of its contents now plays in opposite to what it intended to be

MrMike85
08-04-2009, 05:00 PM
I agree with that.

drummerholt1234
08-04-2009, 05:05 PM
Not biggest problem if tyranids would get something else
I'd say Dark Eldars , Inqusition are much more deserving new codex - they not bad - just old
Tyranid codex now not bad - but 90% of its contents now plays in opposite to what it intended to be

I agree with in that 3rd edition codexes do need to be redone (I mean those "invincibility" launchers are kinda annoying ;) ) lol. I don't think that gaunts are useless, there roles have just changed.

Sangre
08-04-2009, 06:17 PM
I think that the tyranids are currently an army that is surprisingly average in CC and conversely surprisingly awesome at shooting. And I don't think that's quite right. I think tyranids should be about lots of very powerful CC with very little shooting at all, personally.

drummerholt1234
08-04-2009, 06:32 PM
I think that the tyranids are currently an army that is surprisingly average in CC and conversely surprisingly awesome at shooting. And I don't think that's quite right. I think tyranids should be about lots of very powerful CC with very little shooting at all, personally.

I agree, unfortunately they are how they are right now and I do like how they run. Although, I think they should be able to have so many models that even after turns of shooting they are still more to have to face in CC but with the CC rules we can't do that now. :(

warpcrafter
08-04-2009, 10:24 PM
The nid special character comment just spurred some not-so-random thoughts....

What if they take a cue from the DoW II game with the Lictor Alpha, Tyrant and Ravener Alpha HQ choices and mix them with the special character army effects in the SM codex so that choosing a different HQ allows for different army builds? Something along the lines of Pedro chanigng sternguard to scoring might be Ravener Alpha lets raveners be scoring units. Tyrant with wings lets gargoyles be scoring etc etc.

That is the best idea I've heard on this thread. However, instead of them taking up HQ slots, they should be unit upgrades, sort of like Boss Snikrot and Kaptin Badruk are in the Orks codex. Also, they need to include the Trygon in the codex, and not make it a superheavy. I would also include at least one heavy support creature that has a high power ordinance artillery weapon. Every army should have artillery. Perhaps something like the space marine orbital bombardment.

ChaosLord127
08-05-2009, 02:09 AM
Plastics, plastics plastics. Finally make some Gargoyles affordable instead of buying 20 friggin blisters. I would like to see some new special rules for Lictors and Ravenors so that they don't die instantly ( I actually killed a squad of lictors in close combat with stormtroopers prior to the newest IG codex). I like the synapse rules as they are though, and I hope they stay. Update the biomorphs to fit the new rules, and that is about it for me.

Emperorsmercy
08-05-2009, 02:58 AM
I would definatly like to see some kind of special characters. Though maybe not entirely fittisng in with the idea of a swarm, it could be a famously powerful tyranid beast from a war, for historical battles ect.

A few more diffrent units as well, for greater diversity. And plenty of shiny new plastic, though I do love the Tyrant model.

Rafe_131
08-05-2009, 08:26 AM
I'd have to agree whole-heartedly that 'nids need a good ranged weapon symbiote that is an effective tank breaker. I like the idea of a flamer-template based weapon also.

And the idea of special characters could be very cool. They hosed Old One Eye and the Red Terror in the new codex.

oni
08-05-2009, 10:05 AM
I just bought the current one... I don't want a new one. My codex will be outdated before I can even get to assemble and paint them. :(

npullan
08-05-2009, 10:07 AM
I'd have to agree whole-heartedly that 'nids need a good ranged weapon symbiote that is an effective tank breaker. I like the idea of a flamer-template based weapon also.

And the idea of special characters could be very cool. They hosed Old One Eye and the Red Terror in the new codex.

By incorporating their abilities into easily accessible biomorphs?

I never did like the idea of Tyranid special characters. The fact that ALL tyranids left alive at the end of a world's consumption walk into a reclamation pool to be broken down, reabsorbed and remade by the hive fleets always meant they really shouldn't exist. Ever.

The fluff created for the different Hierodule breeds showed that the hive mind was super intelligent and evolved quickly. It took what worked and mass produced it.

Just feels wrong having special characters.

Madjob
08-05-2009, 10:13 AM
By incorporating their abilities into easily accessible biomorphs?

I never did like the idea of Tyranid special characters. The fact that ALL tyranids left alive at the end of a world's consumption walk into a reclamation pool to be broken down, reabsorbed and remade by the hive fleets always meant they really shouldn't exist. Ever.

The fluff created for the different Hierodule breeds showed that the hive mind was super intelligent and evolved quickly. It took what worked and mass produced it.

Just feels wrong having special characters.

It wouldn't be that hard to justify 'Special Characters' in a Tyranid codex. There's already accounts of large differences between the sorts of breeds/biomorphs a particular fleet employs, use that as a reason for certain breeds of Tyranid that are very exclusive - of course the Tyranid gets reabsorbed later, and then the fleet makes another one for the next invasion. It's not any different from a Hive Tyrant or Brood Lord. Have them affect army composition, etc. Just don't give them a story like they did with the Red Terror and Old One Eye. They're just another kind of bug, albeit a very dangerous one unique to that hive fleet.

J_Kingslien
08-05-2009, 11:30 AM
the only thing i would want is plastic gargoyles. its around $50 just to make a squad o 8 currently

Rafe_131
08-05-2009, 12:36 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't think ALL nids get re-absorbed. (only the dead, dying, and rippers) They simply re-board their bioships and enter a sort of hibernation. In the fluff in the codex, when the deathwatch kill team under Kryptman's command enters one of the bioships to deliver a poison into the ship directly, it says they slew a ton of nids while they were still dormant. That sort of implies that there were creatures already created, possibly from a previous invasion.

Cthulhu
08-05-2009, 12:45 PM
Hive Mind needs a serious rework, fearless is full of fail for Gaunts (as has been stated here already).

-Friend of mine and I had a couple of ideas for it, one was allowing them to choose to pass or fail morale tests (also as stated previously).
-Another idea that sounded crazy when we first kicked it around isn't quite as nasty as it sounds when you consider all the ramifications, was to have hive mind give Fearless and FNP (just think about it without wigging out for a few minutes).

That being said, the nids need to have FNP spread around the codex a bit regardless of what they do with Hive Mind.

oni
08-05-2009, 01:31 PM
Yea, I can't say that "special" characters really fit into the realm of Tyranids. Unique units could be doable tho, like some special Hive Tyrant that's slightly bigger and more badass.

Arschbombe
08-05-2009, 02:28 PM
Unique units could be doable tho, like some special Hive Tyrant that's slightly bigger and more badass.

Makes me think of mainstreaming some of the IA things like the stonecrusher carnifex like they've done with the IG tanks.

vharing
08-06-2009, 01:00 AM
I just started playing nids this week end and i was surprised by how much of their codex was nerfed from 4th to 5th ed. a lot of the biomorphs are useless. In regards to a new codex I agree with npullan, nid special characters dont seem right. I big swarm of bugs is a big swarm numberless swarm of bugs. one is much like another. I would really like to see cheaper ripper swarms. I love rippers, both the fluff for them and their usefulness. I had a squad of 3 tie up a squad of banshees for long enough to get my heavy hitters in there to finish the job. at $10 a bases and on with each box of gaunts I am not going to have very many at all.

npullan
08-06-2009, 07:25 AM
I just started playing nids this week end and i was surprised by how much of their codex was nerfed from 4th to 5th ed. a lot of the biomorphs are useless. In regards to a new codex I agree with npullan, nid special characters dont seem right. I big swarm of bugs is a big swarm numberless swarm of bugs. one is much like another. I would really like to see cheaper ripper swarms. I love rippers, both the fluff for them and their usefulness. I had a squad of 3 tie up a squad of banshees for long enough to get my heavy hitters in there to finish the job. at $10 a bases and on with each box of gaunts I am not going to have very many at all.

You would be surprised at how quickly they add up though.

If you're playing a list with Gaunts in it you need at least 4 boxes (32 of each variety) which is 4 bases. Then your 3 boxes of Warriors (since they're finally worth taking in 5th) gives you 3 more bases.

I have TONS of them, but granted I own 192 of each Gaunt variety. I will eventually get them painted and have the funnest game of Apocolalypse EVER.

Flummer
08-06-2009, 10:06 AM
Several things they could do to fix this are:

An army-wide rule where any model without a gun automatically gains fleet of foot.
Currently CC-only fexes, tyrants, and warriors are still considered too slow to really provide solid anti-tank options and front-line synapse in the case of the warriors. Giving those models fleet would go at least a little ways towards improving close-combat-only models versus hybrid shooting/combat or all-shooting options.

I love this idea. It seems viable and not overpowered and fluffy.



Greater access, and perhaps cheaper points for bio plasma.
Even CC units get faster, they still have some problems hitting moving vehicles. Often needing 4's or even 6's to hit a vehicle means that even a charging CC fex might hit only once or twice, and even though the MC rules and high str almost assure a penetrating hit, each penetrating hit still only has a 1/3 chance to kill the vehicle. When it comes to warriors, genestealers, raveners, tyrants, and other models with a strength of 6 or less that need a good armor pen roll to damage a vehicle, the odds go even lower.

I understand what where you are coming from. I personally would prefer bio-plasma to become a template weapon, but increase the points in AG(I) and allow for the model to never hit on anything worse than a 4+ against vehicles. Or if that is not viable, make it so that if a model is Str 10 (Carnifex w/ TS) it counts as AP 1 versus vehicles. So, when we do penetrate with that 1 attack, the fex really should rip it up.

Fluff wise I really can't think of anything more destructive than a rampaging Fex. In DoW 2 if a fex even breaths on a vehicle it popped.

Just my 2 cents.

MrMike85
08-08-2009, 02:48 AM
That does it! Carnifex Squads of 1-3 fexs. This or nothing.:D

Excalibur
08-09-2009, 08:25 AM
I personally liked the different profiles Spore Mines got in the Battle for Macragge box set. After learning to play with those rules and then going to the actual rules spore mines seemed like a huge waste, especially as a stand alone unit.
I agree that Lictors need a boost and would love to see plastic gargoyles and ravenors and maybe even a sprue with larger wings on it to make converting Tyrants and Warriors easier.
And Tyranids need a more reliable anti tank, yes canifex can smash anything once they get close but with venom cannons only glancing and Warp Blast being so hard to hit with all the enemy has to do is kill the fex and their tanks are practically safe.

Khestra the Unbeheld
08-09-2009, 08:33 AM
Talking to a Tyranid-playing associate of mine, he says the only two things really needed for the Nids to become top-tier again under 5th are:

1. Give Raveners the ability to Assault right after "deep strike", or else give them Marbo's deployment and make them Assaulty anyway.

2. Make Venom Cannons capable of penetrating AV, no more of that Glancing Only crap.

Personally, I think he's oversimplifying things, but those would be good starts, I think.

Chris Copeland
08-09-2009, 10:05 PM
As a bug player I need a better way to deal with tanks... something besides 'fexes. I need a way to shoot at tanks!

npullan
08-10-2009, 07:27 AM
As a bug player I need a better way to deal with tanks... something besides 'fexes. I need a way to shoot at tanks!

Meh. I'm okay with assaulting tanks. Especially now that skimmers aren't ALWAYS hit on a 6+. AND if Bio-Plasma changes to either an AP1 hit (liked that idea) or became similar to melta bombs, I could definitely live with it. For 10 years I've had to assault tanks and it has never been a game breaker.

I think the Carnifex brood of 1 - 3 would be awesome and would allow them to remove Carniefexes from the Elites section of the force org.

I am going to reiterate my previous point though. Synapse needs to change and be more similar to Marneus Calgar's God of War rule. If my cassualties in CC weren't immediately doubled, I would be more enthusiastic about taking a Gaunt swarm.

Chris Copeland
08-10-2009, 07:47 AM
I am going to reiterate my previous point though. Synapse needs to change and be more similar to Marneus Calgar's God of War rule. If my cassualties in CC weren't immediately doubled, I would be more enthusiastic about taking a Gaunt swarm.

Hear, hear! I almost never use gaunts anymore because of all the saves I have to take because they are feerless in synapse range... I think that GW can't have intended for that to happen...

drummerholt1234
08-10-2009, 08:26 AM
The only problem with Carnifex broods of 1-3 would be that nidzilla would now be 11 MC and even more broken then 4th assuming that Nids would also get a weapon to penetrate vehicles at range.

I do agree that synapse should be changed thou.

ZenPaladin
08-10-2009, 10:17 AM
As for Tanks at range what about Zoan's and Tyrants with Psychic Blast? The bio mines that have 2d6 pen?

I know the biovore's can give away KP but if its a non KP mission...

Chuckles
08-10-2009, 12:55 PM
I think that a really good way to deal with the problem of tanks would be to really beef up biovores and make them like a nid basilisk, instead of a crappy little points sink. Instead of shooting spore mines, they could shoot D3 small blasts or something. A nice big new model for them would be cool too.

Some other things that i think should happen is that GW should heap all gaunts, hormagaunts, and gargoyles under one entry, which would be you basic gaunt. It would cost only 2 or 3 points, then could be upgraded to have scything talons, wings, etc. They need to make gaunts a lot better to discourage the MC spam that most of us nid players are now running.

Warriors also need a stat line boost, or a big points reduction, because frankly, they suck. They are way to weak and easy to kill. Toughness 5 and a better armor save are definitely what the doctor ordered for them. Same with lictors.

drummerholt1234
08-10-2009, 01:15 PM
As for Tanks at range what about Zoan's and Tyrants with Psychic Blast? The bio mines that have 2d6 pen?

I know the biovore's can give away KP but if its a non KP mission...

They are not reliable. Please don't make me do the math :(

It's warp blast JSYK ;)

Grumpy Ripper
08-11-2009, 02:45 AM
*CRACKS NUCKLES*

I dislike DOW2 view of my beloved nids all the end bosses were realy realy hard by the alpha tyrant that was coordinating the whole hive mind on the planet was only marginaly harder than a warrior, the hq should of been a bio titan at least grumble grumble.


Hive Tyrant personally i cant find anything wrong with it except to be produced in plastic and i would love the ablity to have 2 flying ones. I surpose Depending on HQ it could give the rest of the army certain boots like won gaunts of better sysnapse etc..

Warriors seem to get a bad press but i love them but have to be used properly to gain back there costs. Maybe just add the ablity to make them have a 3+ save and come as T5 standard, becuase these are often a weaker choice for hq than a tyrant.

Broodlord should be an upgrade like snickrot for a brood of stealers and allow him the fleet as a upgrade like leaping. he should also stay the same points cost becuase the buff he provideds

As for alpha lictor ???? they are soiltary critters maybe 2 at most not in charge of a fighting section, they are basically spies/assains not genrals, it like telling a death cult assain to take control of a battle group it just will not happen. But lictors are very good all i think they need is +1 strenght and drop points by around 15 they are great but points limit there use on TT.

Elite Carnifexs as much as i have an obsession with them and allways need more i think this is a poor idea, but are used due to rubbish other ellites choices in many peoples mind. if They stay they should only be screamer killers.

It surpises me that for surposesly one of the fastest armies our FA options suck realy bad, Raveners are far to expensive and fragile for what they do they are only now acceptable due to planetstrike. they need to be able to assualt right out of the ground like they do in all the fluff, if this was changed and a price drop of around 10pts they would be used alot more.

Gaygoyles FAR FAR FAR to expensive in money £160 for a squad of gaunts ????? the points are also to much for a flying gaunt with no real save and will very quicly loose synape control. Solution make them in plastic drop them to 8pts and bring back hive node for the swarm like a sargent upgrade.

Carnifex heavy no ive not not much to say for these love the model love the options, i would like a anti av 14 gun but i want nids to the best CC army not a quite good shooting army. I dislike the idea of broods of them so you can have 9 in Heavy selection is a very very bad idea.

Biovores well lets be honest they are currently a joke, expensive rubbish ammo 1 shot each, they need a compleate rework of be dropped straight away. they dont inspire me in anyway shape of form and dont care for them at all.

Gaunts i love these little blighters but the no retreat wounds are realy realy damining on them make them all won free and keep current costs .Hormagaunts drop to around 7 points just above a boy due to 12" charge. i think the ablity to talior a basic gaunt into a hormagaunt garygole or normal is the way to advance rather than 3 seprate entries.

Genestelers need a significant price drop to around 10 points mainly due to i want it and they have lost the ablity to rip through tanks like they used to , i think giving them power weapons is bad idea becuase they dont have oposable thumbs and cant carry them. but i like these they just need a price drop


A few things that need to change over the whole army

No retreat why can no retreat wounds because a t7 critter to have to take 4 saves from str critters in a mass fight if more gaunts get squished :(

Nids should be one of the fastest armies and now run can mean a necron warrior keeping up with a stealer which i dont get at all maybe make all fleet moves in open terrain a 6" move rather than a roll of a die.

Shooting Vs CC. Nids should be best CC army out there and so need to gain a USR like beserk charge/counter charge or somthing or +2 attacks on the charge etc. but the shooting should be tonned down the prospect of having 78 balst markers in a army is just wrong for nids

thats my 2 pence worth. :D

Havik110
08-11-2009, 06:23 AM
I'd like to see the obvious things get fixed: symbiote rippers, thornback etc. Maybe letting venom cannons get more than glances, say -1 on the roll instead of -2.

Really what I want from the new nid release is some new plastic kits. I'd like to see a plastic tyrant, lictors, gargoyles, and raveners.

why no plastic Zoe?

So things I want to change about the Nid book?

1. Make warriors more effective. You just don't see them any more. Why? Because 1 elite carnifex will do more than equal points in warriors any day of the week and twice on sunday. for one they cant hit the broad side of a barn (unless you are taking 9 with twin linked devourers), even if you upgrade their BS. With 5ths wound allocation you would think 2 wound bugs in a squad of 9 would work but they just don't seem to be able to.

2. take away the elite carnifex. I know people will hate this but the 6 or 5 carnifex list needs to die. You need to choose between 3 carnis or 2 so you can take your zoes. If you follow GW's usual progression they take something that sucks and make it better thus elites should get a boost. Move the Zoe to elite. push stealers to elite unless you take the brood lord, and he makes them troops. But the big bug list needs to be gone.

3. The brood lord as an upgrade unit isnt a bad idea. Does that leave the return of the HQ patriarch open?

4. Lictors like assassins in the witch and daemon hunters codexs are over priced imo. if they were the same price as Death cults they would make a little more sense or make them like the calidus where they can pop up anywhere when they come in and attempt to assassinate a character. In the current codex where you horde rush or big bug rush neither of these options really fit.

5. Most fast options suck in general except for IMO Nurgle Bikers which are expensive. If raveners opened a hole like a web way portal for smaller bugs that may be interesting but as it is they are deep striking expensive warriors with no options...

6. Gargoyles...My GF has 30 (unpainted and un used) of these things, she could have fed a family of 5 a very nice meal for these little buggers...I say if you take a winged tyrant then some of these become troop choices or even a retinue... Winged tyrant with winged warriors and winged goyles and rippers could make for a fast and nasty surprise.

7. In 4th when glancing could kill a tank Biovores weren't bad. Give them indirect and make it so they cant shoot at anything closer than 36 inches away and all of a sudden they become interesting.

As for the last 2...make gaunts with spine fists as cheap as shoota boys...termagaunts cant be that cheap as the beast rule would be way to powerful...bring these guys closer to boys

With the stealers they are too cheap right now. if you choose to upgrade them then thats your business...I wish wyches had 4T and 4S out of the box for 16 points.

why should nids be better than a wych cult, or orks, or templar horde in CC? Their basic troop is a shooting machine if you take 32.

Madjob
08-11-2009, 09:18 AM
7. In 4th when glancing could kill a tank Biovores weren't bad. Give them indirect and make it so they cant shoot at anything closer than 36 inches away and all of a sudden they become interesting.

Why in the world would you give Biovores a minimum range of 36"? Not even Basilisks have trouble shooting that close.


As for the last 2...make gaunts with spine fists as cheap as shoota boys...termagaunts cant be that cheap as the beast rule would be way to powerful...bring these guys closer to boys

They cost exactly the same as a Shoota Boy. Throw in a toxin sac upgrade and then, yes, they cost more. So what? Spinegaunts have better BS and twin-linked to work with over a Shoota Boy.


With the stealers they are too cheap right now. if you choose to upgrade them then thats your business...I wish wyches had 4T and 4S out of the box for 16 points.

why should nids be better than a wych cult, or orks, or templar horde in CC?

Wyches have a bit more going on for them outside of their statline to justify their point cost, in case you hadn't noticed. Genestealers have a long history in 40k as being one of the deadliest CC monsters around, and the general 'vision' of the Tyranid army has always been a carpet of gribblies that would love nothing more than to kill you up close and personal - something a little difficult to do with their basic troops these days, excluding Genestealers.

wittdooley
08-11-2009, 09:22 AM
How about some simple plastic wing upgrade kits for the Tyrant and the warriors so we don't have to buy them from FW?

I agree with pretty much everything else people are saying. Biovores need to be an artillery unit, not a mine layer and should be fielded in packs of 1-3. I'm thinking big acidy globules being lobbed at the enemy ala Starship Troopers.

I like the idea of unique/special creatures that grant USR or scoring like the SM. A Broodlord Patriarch that grants all stealers fleet or something? Sounds cool.

Emperorsmercy
08-11-2009, 09:36 AM
[QUOTE=Grumpy Ripper;6631
Warriors seem to get a bad press but i love them but have to be used properly to gain back there costs. Maybe just add the ablity to make them have a 3+ save and come as T5 standard, becuase these are often a weaker choice for hq than a tyrant.[/QUOTE]

I do really like Warriors, but it would be nice for them to a little cheaper (As in money!) as £18 (Not sure how much it is in Dollars.) is quite a lot, and does limit the amount of diffrent lists there are, as people can't generally afford to get lots of Warrior squads for their armies.

Chuckles
08-11-2009, 09:36 AM
How about some simple plastic wing upgrade kits for the Tyrant and the warriors so we don't have to buy them from FW?

I agree with pretty much everything else people are saying. Biovores need to be an artillery unit, not a mine layer and should be fielded in packs of 1-3. I'm thinking big acidy globules being lobbed at the enemy ala Starship Troopers.

I like the idea of unique/special creatures that grant USR or scoring like the SM. A Broodlord Patriarch that grants all stealers fleet or something? Sounds cool.

Last time i checked, all stealers already have fleet...;)

I like the idea of plastic wigs for tyrants and warriors, but i tihnk that is one of the less important things that needs to be done.

I agree with almost everything Grumpy Ripper said, especially all of the stuff about carnifexes. Broods=bad idea, making screamer-killers the only elite option fex-wise is a great idea.
i tihnk they should also get they own fleet rule, like Grumpy said.

Danno
08-11-2009, 09:57 AM
I've played against the 'Nids a lot and the top things my group's 'NIds player wants back are:

-Acid spore mines: the randomness of the flame template

-Heavy weapon warriors: some extra shooting, can keep vehicles glanced, whittle down squads

-Lictor points cost: reduce it if GW intends to keep it the way it is.

As for myself I say bring back the spike rifle and strangleweb. There have been some good points brought up concerning Synapse and unit point costs, has anyone playtested any of the suggested changes/improvements to see if anything is too crazy?

TheKingElessar
08-11-2009, 10:12 AM
In general I'd like to see the codex return back to a more "horde" style.

You'll be pleased then. ;)

Know what'd be nice? Hormagaunts to get a significant buff. Like Without Number.

nidz
08-11-2009, 11:01 AM
i don't believe tyranids were nerfed that hard, yes we cant kill a tank with shooting, but a squad of 5 raveners with death spitters makes any person mad, now i do run a swarm list my list includes around 3 squads of 20 hormagaunts now i own 5 squads of 24 hormagaunts each, that doesnt include the 30 not put together, but i belive teh oen thing that they should do is increase the cost of hte venom cannon, but allow it to penetrate and give it living ammunition that way we have a strength 10, 2 shot gun that can penetreate the strenght 10 is if its on a carnfiex.

The Imperator
08-11-2009, 11:12 AM
I want to see a trygon that would be freakin' epic

also plastic zoanthropes

Majorcrash
08-11-2009, 12:58 PM
question I havent heard, is why do Nids need a new codex. Its hasnt been that long since their last incarnation. And their are several books that are way older. I remember when they last time they came out their was much knashing of teeth and wailing that they were broken, or too uber. I enjoy playing against them, not my style of army but so what. They should give love to the other races that havent see a new book in over 5 years....... Necrons, Drk Eldar, Sisters, Daemon hunters. Or maybe revive some of the old lists, ie Lost and the dam, kroot, squats, :D etc...... Either way its all the same, plus now i have these really cool tanks to use. ( Punisher, banewolf) Big can of RAID!!!!!!

TheKingElessar
08-11-2009, 05:48 PM
I want to see a trygon that would be freakin' epic

also plastic zoanthropes

*Says nothing*

As for why they need a new one? They are a horde army, and so will sell a LOT more than DHs etc. Purely a money decision. Cue idiots moaning about GW wanting our money etc.

Grumpy Ripper
08-12-2009, 02:13 AM
question I havent heard, is why do Nids need a new codex. Its hasnt been that long since their last incarnation. And their are several books that are way older. I remember when they last time they came out their was much knashing of teeth and wailing that they were broken, or too uber. I enjoy playing against them, not my style of army but so what. They should give love to the other races that havent see a new book in over 5 years....... Necrons, Drk Eldar, Sisters, Daemon hunters. Or maybe revive some of the old lists, ie Lost and the dam, kroot, squats, :D etc...... Either way its all the same, plus now i have these really cool tanks to use. ( Punisher, banewolf) Big can of RAID!!!!!!


resets the clock ....

Becuase the way nids have been hit in the face with a nerf stick due to this edition, They no longer have the edge in combat and things in the previous ed have been spread out to other races making them bland.

this new edition has left any nid player with 1 real builds that they can use for competative play, due to this new ed punishing hoard armys just look at tourniment results. Nidzilla is still used alot to deal with most armys huge amount of amour thats around and the lack of a decent shooting way to worry a armour player, but nidzillia is in trouble now due to the need to have troops to claim objectives. They need to make nids swarms viable again like the ablity to delibertaley fall back out of combat and regroup automaticly if they are in synapse range like marines, due to the hive mind not wanting to waste units. Without a way to damage heavy armour shooting or in cc they have been dropped in favor for things that are giant can openers.

So the Main option that is left is a stealer shock army due to troop being the core of this army but this has now problem due to rending now being d3 so again struggle against armour armys, and no consolidation they probally win combat but then they will be stuck in the open after 1 round of combat and get shot to pieces. iam not realy that sure how to fix this issue let me get back to you on this....

The new rules of no retreat wounds also is a great detrimnet to nids due to synsape and many diffrent criiters of diffrent toughness can result in str 3 models causing a T7 fex to take saves even thought they can't physically hurt them. Again there are two ways that this can be rectified by making it so that this cant happen by only allowing canifexs only take no retreat wounds from models with str 4+. The other option is to change how synapse affects them making them stubbon instead of fearless.

With Run nids have lost the edge of speed and manevriblity meaning people find it easyer to keep away from them. This can be easily rectified by allowing them a free move in the assualt phase if they are not in combat like tau battlesuits and eldar jetbikes etc..


and to be honest nids are a very popular alien race and well weve had a very impreial year so nxt year will be year of the xenos, DA are in the works but they may be out in time for my great great great great great grandson 90th birthday, if ever they may dispear into the dark recceses of GW HQ. Kroot will never get a codex IMO and squats.... dam it .... resets the clock.

my 2 pence worth

TheKingElessar
08-12-2009, 06:18 AM
Well, a Transport-equivalent would go some way towards making Nids better, huh?

Arschbombe
08-12-2009, 07:34 AM
why no plastic Zoe?

Not that I don't want one in plastic ( I just assembled my first Zoan this week) I just don't think it's a realistic option. It's too low-density. It's like all the special character models staying metal.

TheKingElessar
08-12-2009, 07:39 AM
Well, my sources said nothing about a Plastic Zoe. I'd have to agree it's unlikely, given the unusual shape.

Mystery.Shadow
08-12-2009, 01:04 PM
It's not exactly a plastic Zoe, but a Resin one!! Extremely High Quality model, for a very reasonable price!
(And no, I do NOT work for them)

http://www.trollsforge.com/alien/alien.html

When you order, tell them Mystery.Shadow sent ya!

Arschbombe
08-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Hey, that's pretty cool. I might have to get me one of those.

oldone
08-18-2009, 06:26 AM
i believe that plastic zoe wolud be awesome but its more likely they change the tryant as its a hybrid of metal and plastic which GW are trying to get rid of. i agree with the biovores as i have 3 and never use them because there just not that good.

i would love to see warrior get T5 or even some new weapson as i believe that their a good choice but they aren't as good as fexs.

i agree that gaunts need soome change to make them competative.genestellers need to get some even if its soome like the old psker from the cults just so their like gods and again in cc and a points drop as even with no biomorhp there the same pionts as a space marine.

fex need a bit of work as the nidzilla list are to aweome but in the fluff that wouldn't happen in less it was a really big resistance in which u have planet strike for.

so theres my points, i know most of these have been said but here i think is were they should start at but the should think of putting in more creatues or even another MC:D

Deej
08-18-2009, 07:11 AM
Plastic gargoyles are a must, and re-introduction of spike rifles and stranglewebs would please me. Would also like to see the Hive Tyrant coming with wings.

Anyone else feel the 'Nid psychic powers are a little lacking? I know psychic stuff has generally been a bit weak since 2nd Ed., but I'd love to see some more powers to provide a bit more strategic breadth.

How about infiltrating spore mines? Would much prefer those to deep strike, and creates much more interesting tactical decisions than just knowing that at some point some mines may land on a unit's head.

Andrew283
08-18-2009, 11:37 AM
The problem I see is that fluff-wise the spore mines land first followed by mycenic spore carrying the troops. In that respect it seems a bit stupid that the mines have to use the deep striking table to enter play :(

npullan
08-18-2009, 11:43 AM
resets the clock ....

Becuase the way nids have been hit in the face with a nerf stick due to this edition, They no longer have the edge in combat and things in the previous ed have been spread out to other races making them bland.


Couldn't disagree more. Did this edition change the lists and tactics that work? Sure. Are 'Nids not competitive? Hell no.

The only rules change that 5th edition introduced which limited army composition was No retreat. And the only limit was if you were like me and took 100+ gaunts to every game.

Genestealers are as good as they were before and now with all CC against vehicles being resolved against rear armour, D3 rending doesn't matter. They rip tanks apart as easily as they always have.

The army is still FAST. Name one other army (other than DE) that can spam as much flying and leaping as a Tyranid player? Who cares if everyone got run? If they're running they aren't charging or shooting so I would say advantage Tyranids.

The Hive Mind is renowned to adapt quickly and move on.

And besides, no retreat be darned. I am STILL taking 192 Termagaunts to 'Ard Boyz next year.

VinceBlack
08-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Couldn't disagree more. Did this edition change the lists and tactics that work? Sure. Are 'Nids not competitive? Hell no.

The only rules change that 5th edition introduced which limited army composition was No retreat. And the only limit was if you were like me and took 100+ gaunts to every game.

Genestealers are as good as they were before and now with all CC against vehicles being resolved against rear armour, D3 rending doesn't matter. They rip tanks apart as easily as they always have.

The army is still FAST. Name one other army (other than DE) that can spam as much flying and leaping as a Tyranid player? Who cares if everyone got run? If they're running they aren't charging or shooting so I would say advantage Tyranids.

The Hive Mind is renowned to adapt quickly and move on.

And besides, no retreat be darned. I am STILL taking 192 Termagaunts to 'Ard Boyz next year.

I agree; after looking over the book and revising my tactics I believe that nids are still playable, they just have to be approched in a different way than before... that being said I am pumped about the new codex.

npullan
08-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Oh I am too.

Having played Tyranids into my 3rd game edition and the upcoming codex being the 4th Tyranid ruleset since I started (3rd ed BBB, 3rd Ed Codex, current, upcoming) I am giddy.

Each book seems to get better and better.

GhostGaunt
09-29-2009, 07:00 AM
I heard the new Tyranids Codex for 5th ed is coming out in January or Febuary 2010. After the Space Wolves.

Melissia
09-29-2009, 08:15 AM
Meh, I'd be lying if I said I was surprised. Disappointed though. There's other armies that have been waiting far longer.

Drunkencorgimaster
09-29-2009, 10:59 AM
I have said some of these on other posts, so forgive me but here are my thoughts:

1) I'd like to see mass-morale failure. Some possiblity for a chain-reaction panic that spreads through the whole army (and I am speaking as a big Nid fan). I just think this should be a possiblity for other horde armies too (particularly Orks).

2) Change the damn color schemes. Two of the major three are based on white/beige. Leviathan really looks lame in my opinion. Walking white-and-purple cupcakes. They should look like nasty bugasaurs from hell, not tasty treats from the pastry section of the supermarket.

3) It is not codex-related but I agree with those who want plastic gargoyles.