Bonesword & lash whip - it any good?

[mercer]

Ok, here's the deal. I've got a flying hive tyrant and was thinking of taking 2 pairs of scything talons, though due to some thought I'm now taking old adversary abilitiy, which gives preferred enemy special rule - so the 2 pairs of talons are redundant.

I've managed to squeeze in a single pair of twin-linked devourers but I've kept the bonesword and lash whip. Looking at the sword and whip combo I'm struggling to find a huge amount of use for it. The tyrant doesn't allow armour saves as its a monstrous creature any way, and most things with multiple wounds tend to have a decent leadership any way i.e space marines, nobz and warbosses etc. The lash whip might make a few things go last, but the real damage comes from power fists thunder hammers and a-like, which strike last anyway.

So should I give the bonesword and whip combo a go, or just ditch it and get another pair of twin-linked devourers?

[BuFFo]

So should I give the bonesword and whip combo a go?

Yes.

[rle68]

it does give you the ability to insta kill that which doesnt have eternal warrior...as for the whip that will work on most people/armies... be careful of a rune priest led space wolf assault with storm caller on, as both groups would go same time regardless of the lash whip...but other then the wolves id say its good to go

[MVBrandt]

Mercer, I actually like your logic.

The lashwhip/bonesword is arguably a "crutch" to convince you to go into combats you probably shouldn't anyway. That's to say, charging things that are going before your tyrant with weapons that can meaningfully threaten him. You've got other units to deal with such threats. The devourers are probably a better choice.

Remain mindful of the fact that while the Tyrant is better in combat and can be better in combat, his base stats are still better than the base stats for him in 4th edition, and in 4th he was perfectly functional in combat WITH OR WITHOUT close combat upgrades. That's generally still the case, so passing on potent and meaningful ranged weapons just to make him a little better in combat (and things that force opponents to go after you that already have a lower I than the tyrant anyway is a tad redundant against most things, hence the "little" better) is a bit of a waste.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I agree that taking the Bonesword/Lashwhip combo on the Tyrant isn't amazing. I think the combo is really intended to be used on Warriors, where forcing your opponents to go at Int 1 will allow you to go first and get the power weapon hits first and severely reduce the number of attacks coming back at you.

[mercer]

Bonesword and lash whip on Warriors is the way forward. Things which will be charging them will be decent initiative and probably not thunder hammers and a-like.

As for the Tyrant I'm going dual twin-linked devourers. I've weighed up that taking scything talons will only get me re-rolls for 1's against vehicles as I'm taking old adversary, so they're not that important. The sword and whip as I've already mentioned don't do a lot for the Tyrant.

Thanks for the comments! :)

[Ssyrie]

If I recall correctly, the Hive Tyrant can upgrade to Acid Blood which would make the Lash Whip very useful.

[mercer]

Hmmmm perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Acid blood forces a inititive test on the enemy unit for every unsaved wound on the tyranid model, if they fail they suffer and wound with no armour saves. If the Tyrant is going first because of the lash whip it means it would strike first and possible not receive any wounds if the enemy unit is wiped out, or very little wounds. So if the enemy unit is destroyed or has little survivors to attack back then acid blood won't be that affective?

Acid blood is best when you don't go first and receive wounds which can be put on a unit while it is still as maximum strength before you strike back, not against a already weakened or finished squad.

[MVBrandt]

He's thinking that you would test off I1, since wounding by Acid Blood is an I test. Don't know if it works that way, though.

[Sir Biscuit]

He's correct, actually. Characteristic tests are taken no whatever the characteristic is at currently, not the unmodified characteristic. Lash whips reduce I to one until the end of the assault phase, and acid blood goes off in the assault phase so... it works. Pg 8 of the BRB has all the relevant information.

So yes, lash whip plus acid blood is quite nasty. What a wonderful "revenge" build.

[david5th]

He's correct, actually. Characteristic tests are taken no whatever the characteristic is at currently, not the unmodified characteristic. Lash whips reduce I to one until the end of the assault phase, and acid blood goes off in the assault phase so... it works. Pg 8 of the BRB has all the relevant information.

So yes, lash whip plus acid blood is quite nasty. What a wonderful "revenge" build.

That is a nasty build.May be add toxic miasm + possibly use the Paroxysm power as well on indented target before hand.

[Sir Biscuit]

Though I actually think the better build is to give the hive tyrant something else, and give his guard lashwhips. It's all the fun of I1 acid blood, with none of the reduction in melee/ranged effectiveness.

[Xas]

in my opinion the lashwhip/sword combo on the tyrant has some uses and in those uses it is unrivaled.

when you want to use psychic powers and/or a "heavy" weapon and already have prefered enemy aura for any reason.

yes you could get a pair of devourers instead but then you are prolly paying 15 points for a weapon you will fire roughly once per game.


the big effect of the lashwhips in my eyes is that you increase your chance to sweeping advance. and unlike on guards it is free and rerolling 1s vs vehicles isnt that great either.

[Tynskel]

The Devourers won't be fired once per game- unless your opponent kills the Tyrant. But you have Bigger problems- your tyrant is dead.

The Tyrant will win combat, and crush all that run. Then it will get to shoot again.

I would stick with Lash/Bonesword, 1 Devourer. You can 'fire' a psychic power, shoot the devourers, then charge- forcing all opponents to I1 in B2B- which will be almost everyone in a 10 man squad (monsterous creature bases are Large!). THAT is awesome. People forget- Relic Blades/Frost Blades go just as fast as the Tyrant does- but a tyrant will smash a Relic Blade wielder. Forcing the blade to go I1 is a good idea.

If you were to pay the points to upgrade to a second set of devourers- instead the exact same points can be used for Acid Blood. There will be instances where the tyrant will be wounded in close combat- Happiness to the Tyranid Player with acid blood, knowing the death of the damage dealer is assured.

[rle68]

He's correct, actually. Characteristic tests are taken no whatever the characteristic is at currently, not the unmodified characteristic. Lash whips reduce I to one until the end of the assault phase, and acid blood goes off in the assault phase so... it works. Pg 8 of the BRB has all the relevant information.

So yes, lash whip plus acid blood is quite nasty. What a wonderful "revenge" build.

the rule you quoted was for leadership not iniative. iniative tests are made on the unmodified results. you do not make init tests on units that have bonuses like furious charge... etc... leadership is the only stat that is affected by modifiers

if you can find a different location in the rule book let me know please

[Tynskel]

You are reading this incorrectly. p.8 40k rulebook


"In order to take the test, roll a d6. To succeed, you must score equal to or lower than the value of the characteristic involved. Note that if a 6 is rolled, then the model automatically fails the test regardless of the characteristic's value or any other modifier that might apply, and conversely a 1 is always a success."

A roll of a roll of 1 or 6 auto pass or fail respectively, however, the phrase "regardless of the characteristic's value or any other modifier that might apply" means that modifiers apply. If a model that is normally Initiative 4 has been 'entangled' by lashwhips has been reduced to initiative 1, and then has to take an initiative test due to 'acid blood' the model, for all intents an purposes, is Initiative 1. Once again, if their initiative was 10, or 1-- a roll of 1 or 6 auto pass or fail, respectively.

[Herald of Nurgle]

There's also the fact that it's only models in base contact with the Tyrant, right? So the guys who aren't will attack normally and prematurely trigger the acid blood.

[rle68]

You are reading this incorrectly. p.8 40k rulebook


"In order to take the test, roll a d6. To succeed, you must score equal to or lower than the value of the characteristic involved. Note that if a 6 is rolled, then the model automatically fails the test regardless of the characteristic's value or any other modifier that might apply, and conversely a 1 is always a success."

A roll of a roll of 1 or 6 auto pass or fail respectively, however, the phrase "regardless of the characteristic's value or any other modifier that might apply" means that modifiers apply. If a model that is normally Initiative 4 has been 'entangled' by lashwhips has been reduced to initiative 1, and then has to take an initiative test due to 'acid blood' the model, for all intents an purposes, is Initiative 1. Once again, if their initiative was 10, or 1-- a roll of 1 or 6 auto pass or fail, respectively.


its not incorrect by the rule book page you quote its incorrect by page 43 which when read fully states that there are modifiers to morale tests

[SirSlamb]

There's also the fact that it's only models in base contact with the Tyrant, right? So the guys who aren't will attack normally and prematurely trigger the acid blood.

Yes and no, It triggers when the Model with AB loses a wound in CC, With a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard since its one unit and you can't pick out the Tyrant (Depending on your translation of shield wall) so you can allocate wounds, so if theres a Character or a hidden Pfist the Tyrant can take one for the team and take a wound and cause the model that inflicted the wound to take an INIT test or lose 1 wound.

[Sam]

its not incorrect by the rule book page you quote its incorrect by page 43 which when read fully states that there are modifiers to morale tests

There are indeed modifiers to morale tests. That does not mean that other characteristic tests are taken on the unmodified characteristic.

[Tynskel]

the book says regardless of modifiers a 1 or 6, pass or fail respectively. This means modifiers apply, it just means that a dice roll that says 1 auto passes (unless your characteristic is 0) even if you have a plus of 1,000,000, and a dice roll that says 6 auto fails, even if you have a minus of 1,000,000.