Is the Iron Hands FNP6+ Any good?

[Gryphon]

Hi Everyone,
I got a question to pose to you all, and wondered what your thoughts were. I am relatively new to 40k. I have only been playing for a few years now, and for the majority of that time have been playing with Iron Hands Chapter Tactics. What I have been seeing is that the FNP6+ has not been a factor in any of my games. It can be annoying at times, especially with an HQ with the Gorgon's Chain, but that is all. Has anyone else felt this? Do you wonder why GW even bothered giving them FNP in the first place? Has it been just the IWIND that has any bearing on the games you play? I'd like to know.

I have been toying with the idea in my meta, with trying out FNP5+ army wide, or with a unit or two to see how it plays out. A friend of mine is criticizing me for changing official rules while most are non-committal about the whole thing. I love Iron Hands and don't want to change chapter tactics just because I am having some difficulty with them. Has anyone else tried an rule changes. If not, how did you capitalize on the FNP? What ways have you found effective, other than placing everyone on a bike? Please let me know. Thanks for all your opinions everyone!

[Charon]

FnP and IWND are HUGE.
Its about the only "save" you are permitted to roll together with another save. Also as SM are T4 or even 5 its quite hard to get rid of their FnP too.
The character with Gorgons Chain on a Bike with artificer armor and a thunder hammer (and possibly the Warlord Trait number 3) is a huge pain in the *** as he sits on S8, concussive backed up by 2+/3++/4+ Fnp and Eternal Warrior. There is not much which can kill him and in return a great many things he can kill without having to worry about getting wounded.

[Macharius]

6+ FNP might not be as awesome as you may think, but that does not mean it is not great. Like mentioned above, it is the only save in the game that can be taking with other saves. a 6+ FNP army wide special rule means that 1/6th of your army that should have died, did not. A lot of armies would pay a lot of points for that, Iron Hands get it free. I am all for home-brew rules, but by trying to give your army a 5+ FNP is crazy to me. It is almost like cheating, not to be mean.

You mentioned you were new to the hobby, which is great! But one thing I struggled with when I started, was rules/weapons not being as powerful as they should or seem. It is a fair rule, not OP not UP.

[Aaron LeClair]

My armies paint theme is based on death watch, but I use Iron hand rules every time I play, that 6+FnP has a effect. And it will not die is amazing on walkers. My dread made it last game I played 3 turns in a row. Normally dead turn it drops in, it lived until turn 4, thanks to iwnd it gained back a hull points, turn 4 thanks to scarabs it died with their dumb rule.

[vonDietdrich]

Feel No Pain 6+ on a Marine is a psuedo-2+ armor save, which makes it really good. As a Blood Angels player, any and all FNP is fantastic, and I wish I had an army-wide rule for mine, heh.

The point of Chapter Tactics is that it's a small but important boost to a certain playstyle. FNP 6+ and especially It Will Not Die both increase the durability of your dudes. Even one guy that rolls a 6 on his FNP check is worth it. It works out to being an extra 1 in 6 chance that your guys don't die, on top of their regular save. Statistically it's not much on its own, but the key is that it combines with another save. There's no real 'capitalizing' on Iron Hand tactics, besides taking things that can have IWND and understanding that your dudes are tougher than regular marines by about 16%.

FNP 5+, the same as Dark Eldar (should) get for their T3 and generally weak saves, and Sanguinary Priest bubbles, as a free Chapter Tactic is a bit ridiculous. It can be tough to get a feel for how strong things should be when you've only been playing one army, but Marines have it pretty good and Iron Hands tactics are probably in the top three best Chapter Tactics currently.

[hyudun]

6+, 5+ saves are nice-to-haves. Don't rely on them.

If you're changing Iron Hands to 5+ without an appropriate increase in cost to your own list, yeah, I'm going to call that unfair. It's NOT SUPPOSED to be a game-changing mechanic to build a list around. IWND is great already and worth list-changing around. The 6+ is fluffy and gives a chance for something exciting to happen in the game because you DON'T expect it to work, but it's still there.

[Gryphon]

Thanks everyone. Your thoughts and opinions have been wonderful, and has given me something to think about. It just kind struck me as crazy, be cause the FNP generally isn't a factor in a game, and with all these other armies running around with their op/cheese shennaigans. I feel that the IH were just given some arbitrary rule to fill up space. Vehicles and walkers with IWND are wonderful, and I have seen this, but that also limits the number of models on the table. From what I have seen, 7th is all about shooting and allies. And since most armies take tons (or at least a fair number of high strength low ap weapons, The walkers don't last very long. I also hate the idea of having to filed an army that's all tanks/walkers. Aside form not having enough models on the table, it's not very IH, who use a combination of that stuff, and like to overwhelm their opponents with numbers. Thanks again. Anything else will, of course, be helpful. As an aside, I think FNP5+ for a unit or two would be cool, relfecting substantical bionics replacement, and maybe tac on an extra 50pt to a squad.

[Ben_S]

Feel No Pain 6+ on a Marine is a psuedo-2+ armor save,

Actually, it's nowhere near that good. First, consider being hit by an AP3 weapon. A Terminator (2+ save) will save five times out of six. An Iron Hand tactical marine will only 'save' (FNP) once in six.

Now consider being hit by a bolter, so both get an armour save. A Terminator saves five times out of six, so from eighteen wounds you would expect three dead. The tactical marine saves four out of six and then has a one in six chance of ignoring those that get through his armour, so from eighteen wounds you would expect five dead (12 saves at 3+ leaving six FNP rolls - one passes).

This just backs up hyudun's point - it's not supposed to be a massive difference.

[vonDietdrich]

Meh. I'll revisit this when I'm less fatigued. Yeah, for some reason I blanked on the probability rules for disjointed events.

Alright, calling it even a fake 2+ is hyperbolic, entirely setting aside the rules for negating either the 3+ or the FNP themselves. So it's closer to an extra 7% for 6+. I stand corrected.

[Mad Cat]

If you want army wide FNP 5+ you could turn to the dark side and play Deathguard but the plague marines are about 50% more points although they have other advantages too.

Alternatively take a look at the Red Scorpions chapter tactics from Forgeworld's download page for the Badab War updates. Their TAC squads get to upgrade their squad leaders to medics granting FNP 5+ for no cost but if the medic dies you loose the bonus so watch out for model placement and remember those 4+ look out sir rolls

[SnakeChisler]

Iron Hands have a good set of rules for a Mech army the 6+ FNP is a nice buff

Clan Raukan also gives some nice artifacts (the buff to It will not die of +1 is my Favorite for a 3+ within 12") and if your into your machines then I'd go with the chapter, ocasionally siphon off all my mech and use a Forge Master on a Bike to make a machine list.

Run 2 tac squads bare with plasma gun in Razors the rest is made up of Dreads Vindicators Speeders Planes & Drop Pods + a Bike command squad to hang with the Forge guy.

[Demonus]

It works 100% of the time.....once every 6 rolls :)

[This Dave]

It works 100% of the time.....once every 6 rolls :)

"Sixty percent of the time it works every time." :)

[Anggul]

It doesn't seem like much, but over the course of the game it really does help. I know from playing against them a fair bit how frustrating it is when you think you've downed a couple and you see a six in there.

It isn't just the FnP you have to think about though. The characters and vehicles all have IWND, which again adds up. You have to take out vehicles in one go or they're going to keep on coming. The Ironstone from the supplement just makes it harder.

[DWest]

The other advantage (or disadvantage, depending on your opinion) of a 6+ save, is that it becomes very unpredictable, which can lead to hilarity. A recent anecdote: My Imperial Guard vs. buddy's Crimson Fists. Pedro And Friends drop-pod right in front of my line, hoping to smoke out an objective. Leman Russ tank pokes its nose around the corner and lays a Battlecannon shot on them. 4 hits, 3 wounds. Buddy goes to ground even though it's in the open, because why not? Rolls three 6's. Cue maniacal laughter (from me as well; really, what else can you do?)

[Porkchop Express]

The other advantage (or disadvantage, depending on your opinion) of a 6+ save, is that it becomes very unpredictable, which can lead to hilarity. A recent anecdote: My Imperial Guard vs. buddy's Crimson Fists. Pedro And Friends drop-pod right in front of my line, hoping to smoke out an objective. Leman Russ tank pokes its nose around the corner and lays a Battlecannon shot on them. 4 hits, 3 wounds. Buddy goes to ground even though it's in the open, because why not? Rolls three 6's. Cue maniacal laughter (from me as well; really, what else can you do?)
To be fair, if Pedro can survive his fortress monastery exploding, a Leman Russ battlecannon is nothing to him!