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Bigred
10-18-2014, 09:23 AM
Chapterhouse has made an announcement on thier facebook page that they have had assets frozen pending an appearance in court to have the decision reversed.

Chapterhouse Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Chapterhouse-Studios/159482580794)


Our assets have been frozen.

Yes, thats pretty much the issue. Many of you may know that Games Workshop has been in a legal battle with us for almost 4 years now.. maybe its 5...

Anyways, they have asked the courts to freeze our assets and this has happened, this happened early September, not long after I posted the photos of the last set of products that were being produced and almost ready to ship.

What does this mean? #1 we have no means to ship or produce or pay for anything... and I mean anything, internet, phone, gas, nothing. We cant use or accept funds (well technically we can accept but I wont do that without a means to ship out new orders).

#2 the demon lines are sitting at the casters, waiting to be shipped but not able to be shipped to us. Even if they were shipped to me, I couldnt ship them out since they are technically "assets" and I am not allowed to ship them out.

#3 the company infrastructure, email, website, is pretty much frozen.

I am flying out (which GW allowed us to buy a ticket) to chicago next week to step in front of the courts and plead my case to have assets released and do business as normal until the appeal is addressed.

For those of you who are understandably upset, I am sorry, this has been a long and hard road and many of you have stood by me. I wish it was better but its been very stressful and now I have learned that its not only my company at risk but my personal assets and home are being threatened as well now.

Ill do my best to keep you all apprised.

And to be clear, no orders were taken after I found about about the freeze mid september.
Any orders that have issues were due to customers not putting in correct addresses and a new shipment needing to be sent (and couldnt due to the freeze).
Or lost orders in the postal system.

Nick

DrLove42
10-18-2014, 09:33 AM
Apologies i seem to have misplaced my sypmathy for these opportunist leeches...

The fact a judge has agrred to a freeze suggests they support GWs side in this case

Chris*ta
10-18-2014, 09:35 AM
Hmm, is it normal to delay an announcement like this more than a month?

Also http://chapterhousestudios.com . Scheduled maintenance? The plot thickens ...

Mr Mystery
10-18-2014, 09:48 AM
Is this a common move in such cases?

doc
10-18-2014, 09:57 AM
Not sure why you think these guys are leeches. GWs IP has so many holes in it they are filling the gaps.
GW of course has the right, and the legal obligation, to defend its IP, and their more recent tactic of removing codex entries that do not have models (or models that have been produced by 3rd parties in lieu of GW not making it) is clearly a way to plug the gaps.
However, producing "daemons" should not be considered an IP infringement. I've not seen the models in question, but the generic nature of "daemon" makes it hard to claim IP.

Erik Setzer
10-18-2014, 10:04 AM
Apologies i seem to have misplaced my sypmathy for these opportunist leeches...

The fact a judge has agrred to a freeze suggests they support GWs side in this case

There are several "opportunist leeches" out there. Kromlech, for example, makes several models that GW also has models for, and you know that the Kromlech stuff is designed to either supplement or replace GW models. Victorian Miniatures (I believe that's the name?) produce not only alternate models for IG, complete with weapon teams, but even produce weapon packs that are labeled just different enough not to get in trouble, but are distinctly made for use with 40K. That's just two examples. But GW's not going after those guys yet. Kromlech likely has a lot more money than Chapterhouse and wouldn't be as affected (also, the laws in their nation might make it harder for GW to win such a ridiculous legal fight).

You also likely have no sympathy because you haven't dealt with GW's legal department. These guys will feature a website on the GW website using GW art, but then threaten to sue other sites who use the same art, showing a magnificent display of hypocrisy while also being sue-happy against non-profit websites (back then, we didn't load our sites down with ads). Then there was the situation where they kept changing their mind on whether people had permission to post certain rules that were inaccessible, and the only way you found out it was no longer allowed was a letter on your physical doorstep saying that if you don't remove what they told you that you could have up, they'd sue you.

Yeah, their legal department is run by a bunch of *******s who jump any opportunity to try to sue and threaten people. They know most of the people they threaten aren't able to pay for a lengthy legal battle.

Freezing assets doesn't mean the judge supports GW's side. It just means that, until the case is resolved, they don't want to run the risk that someone is making money off of something they shouldn't, so in the meantime, they free the assets. It also prevents anyone from moving assets in the event they might be found in the wrong and ordered to pay something out. A precautionary move, nothing more.

This crap is getting ridiculous. And for GW, a company that built itself originally from being able to sell everyone else's stuff and write articles about everyone else's games until it could get big enough to start doing their own stuff and eventually focus only on that, to go attacking other people who aren't even taking money away from them... It shows how removed from the customer base the current people running it are.

- - - Updated - - -


Not sure why you think these guys are leeches. GWs IP has so many holes in it they are filling the gaps.
GW of course has the right, and the legal obligation, to defend its IP, and their more recent tactic of removing codex entries that do not have models (or models that have been produced by 3rd parties in lieu of GW not making it) is clearly a way to plug the gaps.
However, producing "daemons" should not be considered an IP infringement. I've not seen the models in question, but the generic nature of "daemon" makes it hard to claim IP.

I doubt it's the daemons that are the problem. Otherwise, Creature Caster could be in even more trouble, as they're specifically producing models designed to mimic GW's Greater Daemons while looking so much better.

Seriously, look at these:

http://www.creaturecaster.com/collections/all

Now, in this case, someone would be buying those models *instead of* GW models.

With nearly everything I've seen from Chapterhouse, unless they had something different at some point, I've seen bits that you have to have bought a GW model to attach them to. The exception being the defense lines for various races.

What's weird is that several companies do that, with the bits. Or even entire replacements. Kromlech's range is chock full of that kind of stuff. The only difference I've seen so far is that CH has made models for stuff GW doesn't have a model for, and made the mistake of admitting that was the purpose. That's it.

It feels more like they're trying to go after the company least capable of fighting back and trying to use them as an "example" to others. And it's kind of funny (except that they're trying to ruin someone's life), because they know they likely can't even win this case, just bleed the person until he relents, so trying to fight anyone with more means of hiring lawyers and such would just be an insane waste of time and resources.

goldenS
10-18-2014, 10:09 AM
Erik, I agree with you on this. I just wish that rather than focus on legal battles like this, that GW focus more on making and selling more non-limited edition stuff. I mean if you don't buy the data cards for army X then your stuffed unless someone in your group has kindly bought you a box. If it wasn't limited edition and prices were cheaper, GW might actually keep more loyal customers. As it is, I'm getting 3rd party re-casts of FW's MKIV legionnaires. GW need to re-focus on the customer and they might stay on business for longer, you never know....

ctuttle
10-18-2014, 10:13 AM
It's called a court "battle" for a reason.

Chris*ta
10-18-2014, 10:21 AM
The daemons are not the problem, this case started years ago, and so only involves what happened before that date.

Chapter House was marketing several products that used names from GW IP, and were marked "for use with WH40k. This is pretty clearly illegal.

They were also selling a number of products that used visual elements that much up to GW elements. The court decision on this was more mixed, not least because it was hard for GW to prove that they had claim to several elements.

Other companies were not targeted by GW because they were not engaging in either element of the first practice. Understand that they're is an onus on GW to defend their IP when it is challenged in this way, or else, if later on someone else does the same thing, then they can point to the fact that GW didn't challenge Chapter House, and so no longer have claim over their own IP.

LonewolfRJ
10-18-2014, 11:01 AM
Erik, I agree with you on this. I just wish that rather than focus on legal battles like this, that GW focus more on making and selling more non-limited edition stuff. I mean if you don't buy the data cards for army X then your stuffed unless someone in your group has kindly bought you a box. If it wasn't limited edition and prices were cheaper, GW might actually keep more loyal customers. As it is, I'm getting 3rd party re-casts of FW's MKIV legionnaires. GW need to re-focus on the customer and they might stay on business for longer, you never know....

While working for GW i created a Kyrl Grimblood Wolf Lord figure that looked like the drawing in the codex out of other figures because they had rules but no figure for him. Three months after i showed him around the office including to the visiting English VIPs and explained how I put him together, the exact same directions appeared in Citadel Journal. However, someone else from GW main office. Was taking credit for it. When i complained i was shot down.

The Imperial Fist
10-18-2014, 11:08 AM
Not sure why you think these guys are leeches. GWs IP has so many holes in it they are filling the gaps.
GW of course has the right, and the legal obligation, to defend its IP, and their more recent tactic of removing codex entries that do not have models (or models that have been produced by 3rd parties in lieu of GW not making it) is clearly a way to plug the gaps.
However, producing "daemons" should not be considered an IP infringement. I've not seen the models in question, but the generic nature of "daemon" makes it hard to claim IP.

Daemons - instead of demons - may present an issue, depending on if GW managed to copyright that word for product purposes or not. It is still in the OED, but listed as an archaic spelling, so they may be able to.

dekinre
10-18-2014, 12:25 PM
Considering they used daemons spelling in an old doctor who with jon pertwee amongst other tv shows I dont think thats it unless gw is going to sue bbc is very doubtful

Maxis Lithium
10-18-2014, 02:43 PM
Daemon is actually a modern spelling of Dæmon, using the the old English character. You can no more copyright an existing work then you can the words Space Marine.

As it is, they have convinced a judge of something that has seized their assets. Usually involving not having payed the penalties already assigned by a judge in this case. As GW decided to appeal, this might have meant that they did not have to pay any penalties right away. GW likely has convinced a judge to seize their assets due to some legal perspective on that. It's likely an intimidation tactic, and may not hold up upon scrutiny. Which is why they are going to Chicago.

As it is, GW is pissed they lost the bulk of the main decision, so they are trying to run the company out of business. This is a very good way to do that.

Mr Mystery
10-18-2014, 02:52 PM
Mmmmm.

Speculation!

Soon to be repeated as fact all over the interwebs!

Xaric
10-18-2014, 06:26 PM
Most likely there is more then meets the eye here for the word daemon its most likely justified by its spelling most IP if they have a copyright protection on them must be some what not generic the word demon and Dæmon are too generic but the word daemon is not used anywhere but in GW IP product line in terms its not a real word but sounds or shows a similarity to demon or Dæmon they have legal right to copyright that word as long as it does not infringe on the other too words being if they are a product under a copyright protection.

This sort of stuff happens all the time because at the end of the day if a busyness works for its money and finds a company mooching of them they will always take action because by a busyness standpoint they are taking there profits welcome to the corporate world where everyone sceaws each other over.

Morgrim
10-18-2014, 07:26 PM
Most likely there is more then meets the eye here for the word daemon its most likely justified by its spelling most IP if they have a copyright protection on them must be some what not generic the word demon and Dæmon are too generic but the word daemon is not used anywhere but in GW IP product line in terms its not a real word but sounds or shows a similarity to demon or Dæmon they have legal right to copyright that word as long as it does not infringe on the other too words being if they are a product under a copyright protection.
Incorrect. I have multiple old alchemy books that use the spelling 'daemon'. It has also been used in many games over the years. GW cannot claim it belongs to them.

eldargal
10-19-2014, 01:18 AM
Day 1: 'Chapterhouse has its assets frozen'
Day 3: 'GW had Chapterhouse's assets seized!'
Day 15: 'GW HAD CHAPTERHOUSE ARRESTED AND SENT TO THE SPICE MINES OF KESSEL!'

Deadlift
10-19-2014, 01:26 AM
But could this asset freeze put CH out of business eventually ? If they are owing money elsewhere but can not pay it, how long before they are declared bankrupt by creditors.

I'm kind of on the fence on this one. But I will say that the times CH have posted here on BoLs they seemed reasonable enough. The fact they were willing to interact with the fan base using social media is something GW could learn from.

eldargal
10-19-2014, 01:31 AM
I've noting against CHS really, I'm just exaggerating the reaction to the news for humorous effect. Are there protections against bankruptcy if you've had assets frozen for Reasons?

Mr Mystery
10-19-2014, 01:36 AM
I've noting against CHS really, I'm just exaggerating the reaction to the news for humorous effect. Are there protections against bankruptcy if you've had assets frozen for Reasons?

One would expect so?

After all, the money is there, just can't be issued etc. Which is different to not being willing to pay.

Denzark
10-19-2014, 04:35 AM
Just remember that CHS chose not to do the Maxmini, Kromlech, Victoria miniatures route. They chose to flaunt GW IP. And then basically told GW to shove it. I remember clearly testimony from a sculptor who was asked if CHS needed to send him a copy of HH - Visions - to crib from for the jet bikes. He said no, he already had one.

Sympathy is minimum. Especially with the amount of people crowing about how CHS won this big victory against 'THE MAN'. I don't rate any endeavour as a victory if you can't afford to buy Andrex for the company bogs, cos the Beak has ordered your assets frozen.

YorkNecromancer
10-19-2014, 06:11 AM
I have absolutely minimal sympathy for Chapterhouse. Their initial arguments sounded just like a WAAC rules lawyer, and just seemed spectacularly naive about the way the courts work. I think they went into the fight expecting a quick and easy victory. Turns out legal battles aren't like a wargame, because they're slow. Really, unbelievably, grindingly slow. And even if Chapterhouse are found to be right, there's a good chance the fight will have destroyed them as a company.

All this because of what can only be called hubris. It's like, yeah, you may be right: do you actually want to get into a serious fight you don't need to, and one that will drag on for nearly half a decade? For no real gain? Because we all know Kromlech makes Chaos Marine parts and Ork parts. We know. They don't need to call them their actual GW names. It's obvious. And if GW tried taking them to court, the ground is so much more uncertain.

Chapterhouse were arrogant and they were foolish. They forgot, or chose to ignore, that the way the world works is simple. The big guy wins, end of story. The reason we like those stories where the little guy triumphs? Because it gives us hope that the world might be fair. But it's not. The big guy wins 99% of his fights. GW is the big guy. They're going to win.

And when they do go down, it won't be because of Chapterhouse, it'll be because of GW making mistakes or because GW didn't adapt their business to a changing market. 3D printers maybe, or computer games, or the simple fact that GWs current 'luxury good' busines splan means that in ten years there won't be any new adults with nostalgia for GW products because they couldn't afford them during the critical early teenage years. Chapterhouse will be an interesting legal footnote, but that's all.

I really hope the people behind it think it was worth it. I suspect that at the moment, they are regretting their decision to pick a fight. I know I'd be absolutely terrified of losing everything in the name of a cause that no-one cared about and that doesn't really matter in the long run.

Denzark
10-19-2014, 06:53 AM
Bleak but spot on.

Mr Mystery
10-19-2014, 07:16 AM
Yup.

And people need to realise the driving force behind GW's case.

It's not 'bully boy' tactics. It's not 'the big man picking on the little man'. It's far more based in necessity. CH attempted to use another company's IP to peddle their own ware. When this happens, the legitimate owner of the IP has to fight for it.

Is it particularly nice that CH are being dragged over the coals? Nope. But this is what happens.

daboarder
10-19-2014, 04:55 PM
I'm with GW on this one.

still think a bunch of GW's internal actions since have been bad for the game though

AirHorse
10-20-2014, 11:00 AM
Yup.

And people need to realise the driving force behind GW's case.

It's not 'bully boy' tactics. It's not 'the big man picking on the little man'. It's far more based in necessity. CH attempted to use another company's IP to peddle their own ware. When this happens, the legitimate owner of the IP has to fight for it.

Is it particularly nice that CH are being dragged over the coals? Nope. But this is what happens.

Indeed, can't blame GW for the system unfortunately!

I also find it hard to have much sympathy for CHS after their initial response regarding it all...

40kGamer
10-20-2014, 11:20 AM
I'm with GW on this one.

still think a bunch of GW's internal actions since have been bad for the game though

Have to agree that in this case GW has the moral high ground as Chapterhouse decided to walk right into GW's IP. Also think the way GW has decided to address this internally has been bad for the game.

Overall I still view GW's legal department through my "Spot the Space Marine" glasses... namely as a bunch of overzealous morons.

Mr Mystery
10-20-2014, 12:54 PM
Have to agree that in this case GW has the moral high ground as Chapterhouse decided to walk right into GW's IP. Also think the way GW has decided to address this internally has been bad for the game.

Overall I still view GW's legal department through my "Spot the Space Marine" glasses... namely as a bunch of overzealous morons.

Given the timing of that, I've often wondered if it was an action somehow linked to the CH case - perhaps an attempt to head off 'why are you only enforcing against us' type shenanigans.

Got no evidence either way like, just a pondering.

40kGamer
10-20-2014, 01:28 PM
Given the timing of that, I've often wondered if it was an action somehow linked to the CH case - perhaps an attempt to head off 'why are you only enforcing against us' type shenanigans.

Got no evidence either way like, just a pondering.

That would at least make sense. Hard to imagine a company would make such a maneuver simply to build badwill in the community.

Morgrim
10-21-2014, 07:48 AM
Although since that author is pretty well known and liked in several online (non-war) gaming communities, I think GW shot themselves in the foot choosing her as their 'look, we're doing something!' target.

40kGamer
10-21-2014, 08:01 AM
Although since that author is pretty well known and liked in several online (non-war) gaming communities, I think GW shot themselves in the foot choosing her as their 'look, we're doing something!' target.

You know you've jumped the shark when Wil Wheaton rallies the troops against you. :p

Seriously though, slapping Chapterhouse may stir things up but is a completely justified move... 'Spot' was such an epic PR screwup that whoever thought it was a good idea should have had their items boxed and been escorted from the building.

odinsgrandson
10-21-2014, 08:40 AM
- I don't think that the book was related. GW sends all kinds of Cease and Desist letters out all the time (or at least, they did before the CHS case went to trial). If anything, it adds evidence of Bullying (which may or may not be legal) but they never go after companies that can defend themselves. I remember they told Raging Heroes to stop making their Lamasu (right before GW brought back their inferior Lamasu). Of course, they could just stop making the one mini and get on with their lives. CHS didn't have that option.

Of note, Reaper Miniatures actually makes a "Space Marine." He looks like Marcus Fenix from Gears of War, but they actually use the term in reference to a mini. But Reaper is large, and that makes GW lawyers afraid to act.

-The biggest problem that Chapterhouse had in this case was that GW would not be satisfied until Chapterhouse Studios died. The C&D ordered them to cease existing as a company. Nick figured that his personal assets were exempt from his business assets- so the worst case scenario is that he loses his business if he fought it in court. If he caved, he had to give up his business, so he didn't see it as all that much of a difference.




...Because we all know Kromlech makes Chaos Marine parts and Ork parts. We know. They don't need to call them their actual GW names. It's obvious. And if GW tried taking them to court, the ground is so much more uncertain...


Yeah- and the court precedent that has been set is that those companies can openly state that their parts are compatible with GW kits. Which is the interesting thing to come out of this case.

The real difference is that Chapterhouse is in the US, and Kromlech is in the UK. GW's C&D spam is against US companies. This is because the way that the US court system works, it is much harder for a small entity to defend themselves against a larger one. If Scibor, Victoria, Kromlech, Puppet's War, and probably even Mantic were sued, they could defend themselves with far less risk (if they win the majority of the case). In the US, you can win most (or even all) of your claims and still go bankrupt.


But this whole case is because GW is throwing a fit, and lashed out at a small company that was doing them no harm (honestly, people could not use most CHS parts without buying GW bits). The groupthinkers at GW don't know why their market share is declining, and decided that it is due to these tiny companies making GW bits, rather than the much larger companies making different games that are constantly growing in popularity.

40kGamer
10-21-2014, 09:16 AM
Chapterhouse crossed the line when they offered full models labeled with GW's names and based on GW's concept art. If they had lingered in the established limbo of after market add ons they may have avoided the court drama. The biggest positive to come out of the trial is that the ruling establishes a precedent for what is and isn't acceptable... something new companies can use to guide their offerings.

I agree that the US court system is just plain stupid. Typically there are no repercussions to filing frivolous lawsuits, and given that each side has to foot their own legal bill the defendant can easily go bankrupt even if they win.

Mr Mystery
10-21-2014, 09:31 AM
Yup. And IP is an odd thing for legal stuff - it's only as strong as you make it, from what I understand.

If you attempt to enforce it at the drop of a hat, the less likely you are overall to see attempted infringements, whether intentional (CH) or completely coincidental (Spots).

It's a capitalist grabfest at the end of the day. Had GW got the author of Spots to back down - dear lord the things that would do for them.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. This is the legal world GW inhabit - they have to play that way or potentially lose everything.

40kGamer
10-21-2014, 09:48 AM
Don't hate the player, hate the game. This is the legal world GW inhabit - they have to play that way or potentially lose everything.

Make & sell some Star Wars models on the open market and see how Disney takes it. I imagine Mickey and the gang going full Rambo on your ***. :p

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Erik Setzer
10-21-2014, 12:52 PM
Erik, I agree with you on this. I just wish that rather than focus on legal battles like this, that GW focus more on making and selling more non-limited edition stuff. I mean if you don't buy the data cards for army X then your stuffed unless someone in your group has kindly bought you a box.

The "limited edition" on some items pisses me off. Like the Lore of Undeath cards. You bring in a new lore that ANYONE can use, and then only have three sets at each of your stores? A friend and I got to the local GW store an hour early - no kidding, we sat outside for an hour - to make sure we got the cards. The third person in line was a kid who didn't even play WFB at the time, and now has an Ogre Kingdoms army and just one box of Spirit Hosts, with no hurry to get more stuff to summon. That left a guy who actually has Vampire Counts and might want to summon Undead with his other army to not have a set of cards, so the manager actually was nice enough to sell the guy his own set of cards (and the manager was starting an Undead army, too). So you already have one player without cards and one player has cards even though he doesn't use them, just because of the limited nature. W...T...F...

And if you want to push Maelstrom of War (and hey, I enjoy them, even when the draw of the cards just screws me over bad), you should make sure to keep the cards in stock, so people can actually play the missions, because rolling on a chart and keeping track like that is a serious PITA.

Erik Setzer
10-21-2014, 01:06 PM
Chapterhouse crossed the line when they offered full models labeled with GW's names and based on GW's concept art. If they had lingered in the established limbo of after market add ons they may have avoided the court drama. The biggest positive to come out of the trial is that the ruling establishes a precedent for what is and isn't acceptable... something new companies can use to guide their offerings.

I saw one Tau-style model they made, was there more than that? I don't even know what anyone would use it for, so I can't imagine how they could have sold it, even.

Meanwhile, I could replace my Ork Shoota Boyz, Slugga Boyz, characters, MegaNobz, Warbuggies, Big Gunz, and a few other things with entire models from Kromlech designed to fit into a GW Ork army and replace existing GW kits... and that's okay?

The overzealous filter they turned back on at my job prevents me from crawling through the main BoLS site (but ironically leaves the forum unblocked), so I can't check on this, but I swear they were highlighting a company making complete Chaos Marines. And Victoria Miniatures makes enough variety that you could build an entire Imperial Guard army - at least the infantry - with their models, without buying GW stuff.

So, really, what's the difference? That you just don't actually use GW terms, even while you make it blatantly obvious you're replacing their models? And don't make something that looks like their concept art, unless it's so bloody generic that they can't say anything?

Mr Mystery
10-21-2014, 01:14 PM
Yep. Because Kromlech advertise them as Orcs, GW calls them Orks.

Junk armour can't really be trademarked etc.

Kromlech are walking the fine line beautifully. CH did not. CH set out to use GW IP to produce shonky knock offs, and took no steps to point out they weren't affiliated with GW in anyway.

Your last line essentially nails it. At least for now. CH in their own gross stupidity painted a mahoosive target on themselves, and stood in the range, bellowing SHOOT ME. GW could not ignore that. IP in general shows they had to take action.

Kromlech etc could be existing on borrowed time, depending on how the CH case turns out in the end. Not having taken action yet does not mean action will not be taken. Who knows? None of us are IP Lawyers, and even if some of us are, none of us, absolutely none of us, are IP Lawyers privy to the inner thoughts of GW. There's a lot of speculation going on, and even some conclusion jumping. But it's based off personal opinion, rather than solid fact. Even Weebl, who says he's an IP Lawyer presents GW in the worst possible light, without knowing exactly what's going on. He may be right, he may be wrong - but his thoughts are often taken as gospel by those who also wish only to see GW in the worst possible light.

In short? Have not taken action does not, at this point, prove 'will not'. If I were a third party producer, I reckon I'd have something of a squeaky bum right now.

40kGamer
10-21-2014, 01:22 PM
I saw one Tau-style model they made, was there more than that? I don't even know what anyone would use it for, so I can't imagine how they could have sold it, even.


I remember a Striking Scorpion Exarch and a full Farseer on Foot. One of the FLGS had them in stock for a bit and the packs used the GW names. I think everything else was a conversion kit although they had the Warlock and Farseer on Jetbike where they used the actual 40k names to reference their models. (You still had to get the jetbike from GW though.)

The other companies may get by with it because of where they are or how they title things... or it may be that what they mimic is more difficult to target. Victoria minis try to be more generic sci-fi and reference back to historical uniforms (maybe trying to deflect IP claims?) they do have a distinct 40k feel and are generally better than the GW equivalents.

40kGamer
10-21-2014, 01:44 PM
What's a company like GW supposed to do? They built their IP (regardless of what themes they ripped off from other sources back in the day) and now other people want to cash in on their market. Ebay is littered with recasters, China and Russia may as well be the Wild West and then you even get stuff like this:

11582

Extremely nice Epic scale knock off of the Forgeworld Gorgon but should someone be able to produce and sell these even in limited quantities? If I was running GW I would be plenty miffed! There's no doubt that IP defense is a difficult thing to balance and for all of GW's bluster it appears that they can scarcely stem the tide!

Mr Mystery
10-21-2014, 02:08 PM
There's also the price argument.

Trouble is, GW have a setup the small companies simply don't. That means they need to ensure a certain level of turnover to avoid going into the red, and a terminal decline.

If GW delivered a price cut, of any size, the small companies could still sell at a lower price. That's a no win situation for GW. Yes, they could shut down all their stores, which some in the gaming community advocate - but that would threaten their overall market dominance, and leave them open to the vagaries of third party sellers.

What vagaries? Well, contrary to some claims, indie stores go out of business because they're not terribly good at running a business rather than GW trying to squeeze them out. It takes a competent sales person to set up their own shop selling anything, let alone niche interest stuff like our precious plastic crack. Another one - third party seller success requires their endorsement of your product. I for instance don't really enjoy Warmahordes, so would find it harder to sell than GW stuff. Whether anyone agrees with my own preferences is immaterial there. But, GW stores remove much of that (sadly, incompetent sales people are almost impossible to eradicate!).

So price overall is GW's achilles heel. They could make a cut, but it would require an equal percentage rise in sales - the deeper the cut, the less likely that is to actually happen. I dunno about anyone else, but I set a cash value budget each month, rather a unit based one, so GW would be unlikely to see the corresponding rise in sales volumes from me. No, I'm not the be all and end all, just using my own situation for illustrative purposes. And if the cut is small, say 5% - it won't make enough of a difference for most to really benefit.

Even if they did do a 25% cut say, and managed to increase their sales to compensate - the small companies could do much the same, and in some cases wouldn't need to, and still be cheaper.

So it's not something we're ever likely to see GW tackle effectively, because they just can't.

odinsgrandson
10-22-2014, 08:57 AM
GW's philosophy on local retail stores changes from time to time. Mostly, they ignore them, but sometimes call them names and try to hurt them (especially the ones that have an online presence).

But most LGS do go out of business because there aren't good business people running it. But about 50% of all new businesses fail in the first 5 years, so don't start thinking that they're so much worse than average.



Kromlech etc could be existing on borrowed time, depending on how the CH case turns out in the end.

I disagree. They're in the UK- and even if GW were inclined to tempt the UK court system, the court precedents set in Chicago mean nothing to them.

They have often gone after small businesses in the US, and they very rarely bring any kind of suit or even a C&D against businesses outside of the US (I can't think of a single example).

Mr Mystery
10-22-2014, 09:08 AM
Can also be a 'one at a time' approach. Deal with one case before starting another. Especially if GW end up taking CH to the cleaners - that adds considerably more clout to the 'just C&D already' argument.

As I said - haven't does not equate to won't :)

Asymmetrical Xeno
10-22-2014, 09:56 AM
I'm firmly on the side-line with all this stuff.

There is a sense of entitlement that is unhealthy on one end, that people feel GW "OWes" them and also I find most of these 3rd party companies mostly boring and just takes away focus from IMO more deserving companies that bother to develop their own settings and games.

On the other hand hand, without 3rd party - I wouldnt have my Epic Necrons, which I wanted for almost a decade!- I know they werent "owed" to me, but I was still very happy someone brought them out. A lot of people still love Necromunda, BFG, Epic ect - How viable is the idea of creating a small-time operation do these sort of things "officially"? Maybe even buying out or giving permission to an existing one?

40kGamer
10-22-2014, 10:06 AM
On the other hand hand, without 3rd party - I wouldnt have my Epic Necrons, which I wanted for almost a decade!

Can you please direct me to that 3rd party?

Erik Setzer
10-22-2014, 10:13 AM
I look at these things from another perspective, too: Say someone's making something that covers gaps in GW's line, or that people might want to use for GW games. Instead of trying to fight a lengthy and expensive legal battle that hurts them in terms of PR, maybe it'd be worth it with some of them - depending on the quality of the models in question, of course - to instead set up a license with them, like GW did with Epicast and Armorcast back in the '90s. If you lose the court battle, then you're out a bunch of money and they continue to make money, and you've lost (more) goodwill with your customer base. But if you could set up some licensing agreements, you could expand your product line, bring in additional profits at less risk, and earn more goodwill. The fine line would be making sure that it's something that complements GW models, not replaces them, so you aren't competing for the same sales against a company. But if someone makes, say, vehicle additions or shoulder pads or new weapons or whatever, you could let them say "officially licensed for use with 40K" and take a cut of the money. It would also help them control what's being put out there more.

sebigboss79
10-23-2014, 03:23 PM
So let's go over this tremndous victory for GW (lol)

Currently GW has CHS assets frozen. That does not mean there is 25 grand in the bank but let's assume for one moment there is. Let us also assume the poor company that GW is receives justice and Chapterhouse has to pay ten times the damages (250k) while stupidly leaving that much money in the accounts so they can be frozen. How much will GWs lawyers have costed? I suggest this figure to be a bit higher than what GW actually gets in damages. Now while this take on reality takes a lot of imagination I cannot even muster after several bottles of hard liquor let's go to the good part of it. Let us speculate:

Part 1
Let's assume CHS is not daft and emptied their accounts immediately when dragged to court hiding the cash in neigbours garage. - Not much to seize then and without proper cause and a search warrant (which you won't get) the cash is safe for Part 2. Of course CHS will declare bancrupt and GW gets exactly nothing except a nice bill from their lawyers.

Part 2
Moulds, somehow, will make it to another hiding place. A new company is formed with a new management and another frontface (Here comes the cash from neighbours garage handy). The new company shows GW the middle finger and produces the same products as CHS did. GW has to sue again and let us assume they get justice done sooner than the 5 years it took to bring CHS down. But we simply go to Part 3

Part 3
Yet another company with another face... (Rinse, repeat)


Since GW DOES have to pay their lawyers I would assume this is a massive moneyhole. Not to mention the loss of goodwill Erik Setzer mentioned. By how much did the sales decrease last year? One would assume GW has other problems to worry about because the sales are less than satisfying since 2008 (the year of the massive price adjustment). But apparently they are quite happy with loosing sales left and right. Or why else would they rebrand the stores? Please, come into reality people. YOU DO NOT CHANGE A BRAND UNLESS THE OLD BRAND IS FUBARed

Lesson: Besides CHS acting totally stupid, GW would have saved a lot of money if they had simply written a letter to CHS (which they claimed they had but could not produce for the judge!!!). In the end most kits of CHS were rubbish and needed a GW kit to be used. So why would I as a company worry if someone does something that I do not want to waste my money on and needs one of my products to function? Heck I would even offer to help increase their quality and IF there was a market I would reserve the right to obtain all rights to that add-on.

Going in with blazing guns seldom works - there is ALWAYS someone faster than you. And in this case CHS (and any company that follows) has the advantage of declaring bancrupt while GW has to sue each company individually. You cannot win this kind of fight in a court of law. You have to win it with the customer and that's the point.

IF GW HAD a better image even inside their customer base there would be no issue of recasters and companies like CHS trying to steal a bit of the cake. REAL fans with TRUE affection to the company will always buy original. They will look down on anyone doing something even remotely questionable. But reality is GW sales are decreasing and recasters etc thrive. So please enlighten me what GW is actually going to win? Experience on how to loose more sales? Experience how to appear as the bad guy while they are completely within their rights?

Again: Please take a step into reality.

Mr Mystery
10-24-2014, 05:42 AM
GW is going to win strengthened and indeed defined IP rights.

That's priceless right there. Means should they wish to go after any other mickey takers, they're coming from a far stronger position, and said companies would be less likely to get any pro-bono help, leaving them screwed royally, and all because they couldn't be arsed to come up with their own IP.

Not sure why people seem to struggle with that?

And is there really that much bad sentiment? Echo chamber of the internet seems to think so, but my gaming circle are laughing at CH for being dim enough to think they'd actually get away with this.

As for hiding cash? Slightly paranoid much? Accounts exist. If they plead poverty, accounts would be examined. If they've cooked the books, it would be apparent, so on top of this sort of trouble, they might also be faced with tax evasion and fraud charges.

But by all means, continue to labour under the misapprehension that GW had any choice in this matter.

Caitsidhe
10-24-2014, 05:50 AM
Actually, it is quite possible CH will win again and get even more things tossed their way. The freezing of assets isn't indicative of the decision. It is standard when assets are involved. In civil cases (from divorce to white collar crime), assets are often attacked as a tactical move by one party to try and cripple the other one to force them into some kind of barter. It doesn't mean that party's case is any stronger, only that they have deeper pockets and hope to starve the other person out. I think this was rather unwise on their part but it makes great fun to watch.

Mr Mystery
10-24-2014, 05:54 AM
I don't think they will.

Granted I'm far from a legal eagle, but didn't CH get caught claiming a witness was an expert, when he was just a local college professor or something? That's a pretty dodgy claim, particularly as it would have significant influence on the outcome....

As for deeper pockets - surely that wouldn't work terribly well against Pro Bono stuff, as you're not having to pay your representation?

Path Walker
10-24-2014, 06:02 AM
No company has ever rebranded for reasons related to marketing or increasing the image of the brand, nope, its always becauce the brand is tanking, never mind that they're replacing a frankly innacurate name ("Games" doesn't really mean what it did 30 years ago) and a logo from the 80s that, while I love it, is really showing its age in todays highstreet, where design is now more about clean lines and simple fonts.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, Chapter House didn't "win", you don't decide legal cases based on how many judgements went their way numerically.

The decisions fudementally destroyed CHs business, they're no longer allowed to use GW terms to sell their products and they're not allowed to make versions of GW models like the Tau walker, Kroxigor and the eldar models they made.

The fact that they're able to sell their shoulder pads isn't that impressive a victory really.

Mr Mystery
10-24-2014, 06:03 AM
They've rebranded literally a handful of stores, to see what happens.

It's commonly called the Warhammer Shop anyways. This is hardly some rushed, whole chain rebranding is it?

Path Walker
10-24-2014, 06:08 AM
Careful their Mystery, thats dangerously close to suggesting GW are doing some market research which we all know GW never do...

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 08:42 AM
GW is going to win strengthened and indeed defined IP rights.

Nope. They had to lay down their IP in front of a judge. I find that pretty limiting because anything OUTSIDE those definitions needs to be claimed before it is theirs. In the meantime anyone can stay just outside that big book of IP and not only be within their rights but screw GW without GW being able to say or do anything about it. Not exactly a win but then again some people shoot themselves in the foot claiming it was for the better.


That's priceless right there. Means should they wish to go after any other mickey takers, they're coming from a far stronger position, and said companies would be less likely to get any pro-bono help, leaving them screwed royally, and all because they couldn't be arsed to come up with their own IP.

What is priceless is that GW still has to sue each mickey taker individually who can declare bancruptcy and the story continues under a new name. Does the name Don Quixote and windmills mean anything to you? Does not appear to be the case.


Not sure why people seem to struggle with that?

Maybe because it is nonsense?


And is there really that much bad sentiment? Echo chamber of the internet seems to think so, but my gaming circle are laughing at CH for being dim enough to think they'd actually get away with this.

As for hiding cash? Slightly paranoid much? Accounts exist. If they plead poverty, accounts would be examined. If they've cooked the books, it would be apparent, so on top of this sort of trouble, they might also be faced with tax evasion and fraud charges.

Nonsense again. I can take as much cash out of MY account as I like. If any judge asks me what I spend it on it would be booze and birds. Nothing you can jail me for. As long as I pay my taxes and I took out my money before the court proceedings started, nothing you can do, period.

As for "your gaming circle" ... pretty much non-representative.


But by all means, continue to labour under the misapprehension that GW had any choice in this matter.

No need to labour. A letter from GW to CHS would have costed less than 5 $ and strengthens their legal position a lot more than a bunch of lawyers that claims such letter exists but cannot produce it. Pretty bad performance themselves, eh? But continue to believe the party, sorry GW, is always right.

There is always bancruptcy to get away from paying damages. Not perfect or pretty but even if CHS did pay the damages, GW has sunk more money and the products will resurface with another frontface. Mission accomplished -NOT.

Therefore: Don't fight the enemy, control them.

As for the rebranding: Clear lines, eh? Why the namechange then? I seriously suggest looking at rebranding before claiming companies do not change names to get rid of bad smell attached to the old name. The problem there is the stench is not attached to the name but to the management and I do not see any change in personnel or attitude there.

And more importantly: Are you suggesting the brand is not in trouble and not loosing sales? That might be a case of account doctoring then. Personally I guess the (legal!) "accounts management" was not enough anymore and the loss in sales is now visible even to Ray Charles but to each their own piece of reality.

As another user said: It surely is fun to watch.

Mr Mystery
10-24-2014, 09:30 AM
Dude. You are a private individual. You are not a business.

If you're not aware of the legal financial standings involved therein, I'm sorry to say I find the rest of argument inherently flawed.

Again - rebranding is limited to a handful of stores. But by all means, call that molehill a mountain. I'm sure it will eventually stick....

Eldar_Atog
10-24-2014, 09:45 AM
There could be something else going on in the background. If they were planning on selling the IP, rebranding a few stores is a good test. It shows that the IP is sellable without the name recognition of the parent company. I'm a little doubtful about this theory but it is possible.


At my company, a re-org/rename after failure is common. If a group takes too long to hit their milestones or causes a production issue, you can bet that the group will be renamed in the near future. A good example of this is the disappearance of a lot of BP branded gas stations in the southern US. After the oil spill, you spotted less and less BP stations. In my area, most of them changed to Shell stations. They still have the same owners and sell the same gas but the BP brand name was killing their business. Once they changed their names, business went back to normal after a few weeks.

About the only reason to do a rebranding when things are going good is if you want to create a logo. Fedex changing their name from Federal Express is a good example of this.

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 09:57 AM
Dude. You are a private individual. You are not a business.

If you're not aware of the legal financial standings involved therein, I'm sorry to say I find the rest of argument inherently flawed.

Again - rebranding is limited to a handful of stores. But by all means, call that molehill a mountain. I'm sure it will eventually stick....

Dude. I can be private individual WHILE running a usiness but the entities need to be separated. Actually the point is not about entity but about knowledge, knowledge you should acquire in ANY basic business study. Concerning my study results AND your post I have little doubt who is ignorant of the inherent dynamics but for the fun of it let us ask again why I would change my name if all is well.

And : I AM a business ;)

The rebranding is in 3 stores to see whether it has a positive influence on sales. So please enlighten me why I would change my business name when all is perfectly OK. And please further enlighten me why I would change my name and invest into telling people that this is my new business (to maintain my brilliant sales) if my business was doing great. IF my business was doing so great I would not waste that money. I would not change the brand but would continue to capitalize on it.

IF my business was going downhill on the other hand...

Eldar_Atog
10-24-2014, 11:42 AM
So please enlighten me why I would change my business name when all is perfectly OK. And please further enlighten me why I would change my name and invest into telling people that this is my new business (to maintain my brilliant sales) if my business was doing great. If my business was doing so great I would not waste that money. I would not change the brand but would continue to capitalize on it.


As I said above:


About the only reason to do a rebranding when things are going good is if you want to create a logo. Fedex changing their name from Federal Express is a good example of this.

Do not discount the creation of a company/business logo. A bag, cup, box with your company logo is free advertising. When you first start a business, you probably can't afford to invest in a logo. It's only later.. after you are established that you can do something like that.

You might also find that you violated someone else's copyright (similiar name, etc). Your business is doing well but you have to change the name or be sued.

Or perhaps this:



There could be something else going on in the background. If they were planning on selling the IP, rebranding a few stores is a good test. It shows that the IP is sellable without the name recognition of the parent company. I'm a little doubtful about this theory but it is possible.

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 11:56 AM
Actually this was not aimed at you but again same question to you: Why change my logo?

Only makes sense if the old logo is attached to a certain stench (see the BP example you made).

In case of potential copyright violations you do not testrun the change, you change or you get sued - as you said. You would also drumroll about this change and give the reasons and as the GW Edinburgh said "we are known as the warhammer store" ...sounds a bit feeble as an excuse I am afraid. There is rumours of buyout every now and then but to be earnest who would buy them? The only realistic candidate is Hasbro.

Concerning Hasbro: Why would they buy a company that has this kind of omage in public? Again GW is perfectly right to stop CHS from what they are doing, the magic word here is image. Why are there people even with remote sympathy for CHS? Why can they find a pro-bono defense? Because GW handled this matter very clumsy, thats all.

So please in all fairness, take this matter at what it is: GW grabbing one straw at a time to change the turn of sales which are going down for years. Raising prices by 15% and gaining 1% in sales is NOT positive. It says you are loosing customers left and right. Thats the problem, and thats why they testrun a namechange.

Eldar_Atog
10-24-2014, 12:15 PM
Actually this was not aimed at you but again same question to you: Why change my logo?


The Fedex logo change I mentioned would be a good example. They were doing ok business wise as Federal Express but they wanted a cleaner, crisper logo. The new logo is easier to read on planes, trucks, and packages than the old title. It's also protects the company name and makes it unique. Much like the name change for the Imperial Guard.

If your company expands it's services, a name change might be required. I could see small resturants doing this to better indicate what is on the menu.

There are reasons to do it when times are good. I will say that there are a lot more reason to do it during a death spiral though.

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 12:46 PM
The Fedex logo change I mentioned would be a good example. They were doing ok business wise as Federal Express but they wanted a cleaner, crisper logo. The new logo is easier to read on planes, trucks, and packages than the old title. It's also protects the company name and makes it unique. Much like the name change for the Imperial Guard.

If your company expands it's services, a name change might be required. I could see small resturants doing this to better indicate what is on the menu.

There are reasons to do it when times are good. I will say that there are a lot more reason to do it during a death spiral though.

Valid point with FedEx. But iirc it came with a major PR behind it. Something like BASF selling their magnetic tape division. As you said the changes are more often when times are rough and what is the case for GW should be clear after this year's results and and the several jobs they created (customer store experience manager - still laughing at that one here).

Caitsidhe
10-24-2014, 02:42 PM
I don't think they will.

Granted I'm far from a legal eagle, but didn't CH get caught claiming a witness was an expert, when he was just a local college professor or something? That's a pretty dodgy claim, particularly as it would have significant influence on the outcome....

As for deeper pockets - surely that wouldn't work terribly well against Pro Bono stuff, as you're not having to pay your representation?

The deeper pockets is based on starving CH in a business, not a legal sense. Pro Bono will simply allow CH to fight it, but not necessarily do any business until the case is is over or the asset freeze is lifted. It is a tactic which is intended to beat CH without going to court for years. I am not a legal expert either, but I did accurately (almost to the dime) predict the last outcome. If CH has the will to fight, they will likely come out even further ahead. The question is whether or not it is worth it to them.

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 03:39 PM
The question is whether or not it is worth it to them.

Showing the world how "bad" GW is and what "Robin Hood" CHS is? I think the answer to that one is clear and another reason why I would try to avoid going to court if I was GW.

Another tactics by CHS could be that suddenly certain products appear from a "new company" forcing GW to sue that company as well. There are just too many possibilities to suck money out of GW in such fruitless litigation. Whether GW wants to waste their money on it is up to them.

Denzark
10-24-2014, 03:52 PM
The GW re-branding is simple. Given that their greatest concentration of stores is in the UK. On any given Saturday my local GW gets 3 calls asking if they sell PC games. They get walk-ins asking the same. Calling themselves 'The Warhammer shop' prevents that. Also, if you think like I do, that they focus entirely on getting little Timmy in and ramming plastic crack down his throat - and not on 20+ year vets who convert, ebay and internet discount their purchases - then an un-ambiguous high street presence, when little timmy sends mum and dad out to buy stuff, is good. It actually means that where there is a FLGS indy store, parents with a Christmas list and no clue will come first on browsing, either internet or foot fall, to 'The Warhammer shop' to buy Warhammer for little Timmy - rather than the wittily named but totally inscrutable 'The Dragon's Ball Bag'.

Re-branding is not because GW sees their brand as poison. They don't. They are a British limited company run on British corporate rules, which is to make profit for the shareholder - which they are doing. armchair FTSE 100 strategists elsewhere can claim anything, but I doubt GW corporately view their own brand as poisonous - they probably rate some of their so called 'fans' as poisonous mind.

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 04:42 PM
Re-branding is not because GW sees their brand as poison. They don't. They are a British limited company run on British corporate rules, which is to make profit for the shareholder - which they are doing.
Which they are doing -30 % last annual report. As a financial professional by trade I call such a stock "toxic" - well at least I did when i was still working in the industry.


armchair FTSE 100 strategists elsewhere can claim anything, but I doubt GW corporately view their own brand as poisonous -
delusion does not really form rational decisions. And to be precise "analyst in strategic investment (Europe)" would be the correct term.


they probably rate some of their so called 'fans' as poisonous mind.
explains why they keep loosing sales. Considering your own customers as "poionous" without reflection plus delusion is a dangerous mix. Next thing I hear will be a repetition of Kirby's lamenting how good the year with -30% income was. Priceless.

Denzark
10-24-2014, 05:06 PM
I'm telling you that until they actually make a loss - which they ain't - they will be seeing things as on track, or at least as a manageable risk.

sebigboss79
10-24-2014, 05:58 PM
I'm telling you that until they actually make a loss - which they ain't - they will be seeing things as on track, or at least as a manageable risk.

Sounded different but I did not say they ain't seeing it like you suggest. I merely pointed out that such view is showing severe lack of attachment to reality.

Denzark
10-24-2014, 06:28 PM
It only makes sense if one accepts that the bottom line they bring in at the moment, is acceptable to the share holders. Any of the 'why' questions - about how they could do business differently, can be answered with the answer - the bottom line is acceptable to them at the moment.

'Why don't they engage with the customers more - if we like them more we will spend more?' Because they think they're bringing enough in to proceed as they are.

'Why don't they drop prices - if kit x was cheaper by 5 shekels I would by 2 every month instead of one a year' Because they think they're bringing enough in to proceed as they are.

'Why do they insist they are a miniatures company - why not tighten the ruleset?' Because they think they etc etc etc.

Mr Mystery
11-12-2014, 07:40 AM
There's also the issue that no profits warning was issued this time around - something which has to be done by a PLC should profits fall below what they expected.

That's interesting right there. Very much suggests the drop in income was predicted. How and why? Dunno. But seems it was.

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 08:25 AM
There's also the issue that no profits warning was issued this time around - something which has to be done by a PLC should profits fall below what they expected.

That's interesting right there. Very much suggests the drop in income was predicted. How and why? Dunno. But seems it was.

They had to know that branding themselves as the luxury gaming company and charging higher prices would ultimately lead to lower sales. The beauty of this business model is that a company can keep a good bottom line with less turnover.

As for the name change... if GW is rebranding it's probably to distance themselves from the gaming aspect of the hobby. It will be easier to claim they are simply a model manufacturer if "game" is not in their name.

Mr Mystery
11-12-2014, 09:14 AM
Thing is, the 30% drop in takings is significant enough that you'd normally get a profits warning, and far higher than you might expect a company to see coming.

So there is more to this than we currently, or perhaps will ever know.

The rest is just so much speculation and confirmation bias.

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 09:18 AM
Thing is, the 30% drop in takings is significant enough that you'd normally get a profits warning, and far higher than you might expect a company to see coming.

So there is more to this than we currently, or perhaps will ever know.

The rest is just so much speculation and confirmation bias.

But speculation is soooo much more fun then facts! :p

There are too many moving parts to know what the plan may be... As long as they are solvent and releasing new product I'm a happy cat.

Denzark
11-12-2014, 10:19 AM
MM - 30% less taking or 30% less profit?

And again, just to clarify, the potential name change is just for their shops, to better reflect what they sell -not necessarily the company.

Remember when they started, they produced wooden board games (in a genuine workshop) before getting the UK license for various RPGs.

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 10:23 AM
Remember when they started, they produced wooden board games (in a genuine workshop) before getting the UK license for various RPGs.

Maybe this is what they are trying to distance themselves from... :D

http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic21072_md.jpg

Denzark
11-12-2014, 10:29 AM
Ha I had a copy of that. Wonder where it is my 7 y.o would probably approve.

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 10:36 AM
I was working my way through college in a Comic and Game store the year it came out! It was definitely a humorous endeavor, better enjoyed while slightly intoxicated... at least that's how I remember it! :p

Mr Mystery
11-12-2014, 10:45 AM
I was working my way through college in a Comic and Game store the year it came out! It was definitely a humorous endeavor, better enjoyed while slightly intoxicated... at least that's how I remember it! :p

Squelch! is my fave :p

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 10:56 AM
Squelch! is my fave :p

Ha! I had completely forgot that one!

Denzark
11-12-2014, 11:00 AM
I remember nothing about the game except for the parents really disliking the music that went with...

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 11:07 AM
I remember nothing about the game except for the parents really disliking the music that went with...

An unexpected bonus.

Mr Mystery
11-12-2014, 03:38 PM
Any more news on this?

Just checked the original post, and it seemed CH were off to (in their own words) plead their case to have assets unfrozen etc the week following 18 October.

That was coming up four weeks ago now (12 November as I write) - and their website remains down for maintenance.

Anyone have any informed idea about how quickly the freeze could be lifted? Is this an indication their request was denied? Is it just the typical glacial pace of law?

40kGamer
11-12-2014, 03:41 PM
Well the last couple lawsuits I consulted on took 3-5 years to work their way through the system and they were both plead out prior to actually going before the court. We may all be retired before this resolves itself!

Mr Mystery
11-13-2014, 04:17 AM
I'm more meaning the unfreezing of assests - what's the average (if there is such a thing) timescale for that?

40kGamer
11-13-2014, 08:07 AM
Totally at the mercy of the courts. If the motion to release the assets is denied then they will likely stay frozen until after the appeal runs its course. Not exactly where you want to find yourself.

Bigred
11-16-2014, 11:43 PM
It's all over,

Chapterhouse and GW have settled.

Both filed paperwork with the Chicago district court to withdraw pending litigation.

Details of the settlement are unavialable (and in almost all legal cases sealed).

Paperwork filed with the court is attached:

It's all done folks.

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 03:33 AM
Well that's an anti-climax.

sebigboss79
11-17-2014, 03:41 AM
Told you so....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hozc3QP-kLw

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 03:58 AM
Now I'm interested to see what's left on CH's website, if they get it back up and running.

40kGamer
11-17-2014, 08:46 AM
Yippee! The old settle and seal the records two step. You just have to love the US legal system. :rolleyes:

Denzark
11-17-2014, 09:38 AM
Well for CHS to call anything approaching victory in my book, they have to carry on like before.

Lets see how that plays out.

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 09:41 AM
Well for CHS to call anything approaching victory in my book, they have to carry one like before.

Lets see how that plays out.

Carry one what?

Sorry. Am having a thick day.

No. Hold on. Obvious typo is obvious.

Ignore me!

Denzark
11-17-2014, 09:50 AM
Sorry got too it to late...

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 10:06 AM
Partly my reading comprehension fail :)

Though I do wonder why CH settled??

Seems they had the least to lose going forward, having already had various things found in their favour, and then pushing for the rest to make a clean sweep. And all on the Pro-Bono.

For GW to get assets frozen, and then throttle a settlement out of them suggests something changed, and fairly dramatically?

40kGamer
11-17-2014, 10:26 AM
For GW to get assets frozen, and then throttle a settlement out of them suggests something changed, and fairly dramatically?

Could be they didn't want to deal with several years of back and forth or maybe the pro-bono wasn't going to extend through a lengthy appeal. The settlement may have been more palatable then a long trial. When you have a legal system where innocent people take deals and go to prison rather than deal with the uncertainty of a trial/jury the sky is the limit for possibilities. Sealed records means only two parties will ever know too.

Denzark
11-17-2014, 10:36 AM
Well.

I think GW went forward to achieve an effect. And that was to stop CHS carrying on as they were. So for me anything short of CHS carrying on business as usual ripping of GW IP, is a loss to them.

Sure, GW lost some battles but won the war.

A bit like the cold war. CHS with their fancy pro bono was a bit like the USSR with a superiority in nukes. All very well and good but if you don't have the roubles to stay at the table, you lose in the end.

Caitsidhe
11-17-2014, 03:31 PM
<chuckles> Everyone here is assuming that the settlement wasn't to the liking of Chapterhouse. I don't make that assumption. What transpired between the two companies is sealed. Why would Chapterhouse care or insist on that? :D They wouldn't. Why would Games Workshop insist on it when the whole point of this exercise was to make an example of Chapterhouse? It seems the terms of the "settlement" if seriously painful to Chapterhouse would be exactly the kind of thing Games Workshop would want public. What we got was both companies agreeing to withdraw from litigation and that they settled the matter between them.

Given the secrecy involved, I would feel fairly confident in guessing that the terms of the settlement were not at all painful for Chapterhouse. In fact, I expect Games Workshop just wants the whole matter to go away. Going back to court would simply have cost it a fortune. If I were to hazard a guess, Games Workshop FINALLY got around to doing what I suggested they do a long time ago. They privately bought Chapterhouse off with a combination of cash and intimidation of an endless court battle wherein their deep pockets could starve the other guy out. In short, they likely employed the carrot and the stick. The terms are sealed because Games Workshop (not Chapterhouse) absolutely doesn't want anyone else to know what transpired.

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 03:34 PM
I disagree.

Having assets frozen, and then an out of court settlement when your pro-Bonio seems odd.

Caitsidhe
11-17-2014, 03:42 PM
It isn't odd. It is a standard practice move in this type of litigation. It is called "starve them out." :D A deep pockets litigator makes a standard move of trying to hurt the other (usually smaller) business by legally making it more difficult for them to operate while the case remains in court. They know the freeze won't last forever or stand up. It is simply a matter of time. Then they go to the little guy and say, "Let's cut a deal. Your lawyers are pro-bono but you still need to make a living. We are going to continue to fight this for as long as we can. Even if you win, we will bankrupt you in the meantime."

The most likely outcome of the "settlement" is this:

1. Chapterhouse was absolved of the initial 20K penalty.
2. Chapterhouse, for a nominal fee, agrees to a non-competition agreement dealing with minatures, i.e. which ones it cannot produce.
3. They both agree to keep it quiet.

From the point of a small fry like Chapterhouse, suddenly being free of the only penalty against it, paid a nominal fee to get on something else, and not having legal fees because due to Pro Bono makes this all WIN. From the perspective of Games Workshop they get to quietly look like they managed to squash a pirate. However, the legal precedents set prior STILL stand and Games Workshop never got what they wanted in court. What they did get was an out without losing face. The last thing they really wanted to do was go back into court and spend another obscene amount of moneya against Pro Bono Lawyers when their profits have already dropped. It isn't the kind of thing that rings well with stockholders. Instead, they make the problem go away.

*Coincidentally... making the problem go away quietly was what they should have done in the first place.

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 03:52 PM
Likely? Bollocks mate.

What is going to be interesting is when (if?) CH get their website back up, as then we'll be able to see what they still have to sell.

I don't see GW letting them off the court awarded money. Why would you?

Caitsidhe
11-17-2014, 03:58 PM
Because Chapterhouse doesn't have a lot to lose. Games Workshop does. Answer me this Mr. Mystery... why are the terms sealed? :D

daboarder
11-17-2014, 04:06 PM
Because Chapterhouse doesn't have a lot to lose. Games Workshop does. Answer me this Mr. Mystery... why are the terms sealed? :D

because out of court settlements are....nobody discloses them. we'll get the details (or the fincial ones at least) in the next GW report

Denzark
11-17-2014, 04:10 PM
I would think it more likely that the settlement is sealed because both lawyers automatically do this at the end of every case they fight like this, rather than GW have something to hide.

As I said - GW went into this to get CHS to modify their behaviour. The extent to which CHS modifies their behaviour is the true definition of who won to what degree.

If Nick whassisface hadn't done his vitriolic posting from the start or had even more sensibly, just done what puppets war does with naming conventions of their products, he wouldn't have been posting about how GW had to agree to allow him to buy an airline ticket from his frozen assets now would he?

Mr Mystery
11-17-2014, 04:13 PM
Because Chapterhouse doesn't have a lot to lose. Games Workshop does. Answer me this Mr. Mystery... why are the terms sealed? :D

I don't know. But then, neither do you.

But one of us is claiming stuff is 'likely', with nothing to support such as assertion.

40kGamer
11-17-2014, 04:14 PM
When I worked in the medical field the cases were sealed because the hospital/doctor didn't want the public to know anything. I think it's pretty common to keep these things from the public as noone wants any perceived settlement to colour perceptions.... I mean we all know perception > reality all day every day.

Caitsidhe
11-17-2014, 04:27 PM
The problem... Mr. Mystery... is the context of this case. Logically it can track only ONE way. Consider the following:

1. If the settlement is not in Chapterhouse's favor, they would WANT it public because the entire point of the original case was to make an example.
2. If Games Workshop had the leverage to force an unfavorable settlement on Chapterhouse, then Chapterhouse has NO LEVERAGE to insist on sealed terms.
3. There is no profit motive in sealed terms for Chapterhouse so there is no reason they would insist on it.

Now consider this:

1. If the settlement is favorable to Chapterhouse it is obvious that Games Workshop would want that private.


*So again... I ask you... WHY is it sealed? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm merely pointing out that sealing the settlement flies the ENTIRE FACE of everything Games Workshop wanted to do with the Court case. If they are holding all the cards, why not get what they wanted? Why pull out now without gaining any legal precedent or value? In short, if Games Workshop had the upperhand they woudn't seal it nor would Chapterhouse have the power to insist on it being sealed. This means the impetus for keeping things private comes for GW, period. Since that is crystal clear, we must ask ourselves why they would want that? What part of the settlement would be bad for us to know?

Surely if they got money from from Chapterhouse they would want to crow about that as a return for the investors and stockholders? That, if for not other reason, seems strong evidence. Why gag themselves? :D I am more than willing to consider any logical argument you can make.

Denzark
11-17-2014, 04:29 PM
They didn't want money from CHS, they wanted them to stop being robbing parasitical little basterds and for them not to use someone else's IP.

How much money could they possibly have got from a cottage industry?

40kGamer
11-17-2014, 04:36 PM
They didn't want money from CHS, they wanted them to stop being robbing parasitical little basterds and for them not to use someone else's IP.

How much money could they possibly have got from a cottage industry?

Especially if CH was smart and organized as an LLC or Corp which means only the company assets are in play. There's no gold to be had in them hills!

Caitsidhe
11-17-2014, 04:37 PM
They didn't want money from CHS, they wanted them to stop being robbing parasitical little basterds and for them not to use someone else's IP.

How much money could they possibly have got from a cottage industry?

Well, yes and no. What they wanted from Chapterhouse was to set a legal precedent. They picked a small potatoes guy to sue and swung for the fences. They got their butts handed to them. It happens. If they were serious about wanting to stop pirates they could have gone after any of the far more powerful and well-heeled people doing it. They didn't. So when this all began what they wanted was an easy win. In typical Games Workshop style they flubbed it.

What they wanted now was to get away from the table and minimize their losses. In effect, they want Chapterhouse to go away so they can declare a victory. They have now achieved that in the time honored tradition of "settlement" with "sealed" terms. :D Need I point out the kinds of celebrity cases wherein this happens? What is important to you and me (as the consumer) is that the Court cases in no way undermined our access to competition, nor has it constrained other companies from making product we can purchase and use as we see fit. In fact, since the case began this alternate market has grown by a factor of ten. Need I point out that Games Workshop hasn't been all that eager or active in going after anyone else? From the point of the consumer, competition is good. We win. In private, I expect Chapterhouse broke even, i.e. got their fine absolved, made a nominal fee to find something better to do and keep their mouths shut.

Denzark
11-17-2014, 04:51 PM
GW clearly knew enough about the law to realise that the 'more powerful and well heeled' people have not flaunted the law in what they called their products.

GW could not let this go unchallenged because of the UK approach to IP law wherein defend what's yours or lose.

Again there is a page on dakka where CHS say they will be online at the end of the week selling 'unrestricted' products. That will give a clearer picture.

As to the consumer winning because this promotes competition, what utter tosh. This has promoted a new era of bland codexes and mad release schedules to stop the horror of the awful CHS products filling gaps GW hadn't got around to.

I note the digital vomit tide of congratulatory cack on Dakka has reached 240 page already. Lets be honest, most of it is because a large amount of US gamers don't like the fact that GW does not fawn on its customers in the fashion of a US business, as such they are the GREAT SATAN and everything they do is wrong. Nick Chapter is a true patriot minuteman standing up against the evil redcoats of GW and can therefore do no wrong.

Caitsidhe
11-17-2014, 05:00 PM
I will admit that I don't understand merchants who don't cater to their customers. :D I also agree with you that a large amount of gamers in the United States do expect businesses to treat them as if their business is wanted. :D I also think failing to do so will cede the American market.

Mr Mystery
11-18-2014, 05:55 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong...but what you're saying is that having got the defendant by the short and curlies via freezing their assets, the plaintiff normally decides to just sort of let them off, and not force as favourable an outcome as they possibly could, despite being the only one in certain position to continue to pay their bills whilst it goes through the courts.

Right. Of course. Silly me. Makes perfect sense.

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 08:34 AM
They never had them by the short and curlies. Getting their assets temporarily frozen doesn't indicate they had won anything. It is just a freeze, an injunction if you will. It happens all the time. It is just a tactic. It in no way indicates the final outcome. You are correct that it would be odd that Chapterhouse who fought tooth and nail would suddenly cave when their legal team is free. :D It is odd that Games Workshop would insist on sealing the terms of the settlement. Both "odd" things are only explainable by the fact that the terms were to Chapterhouse's liking. You are purposely going around and around with me when you know I've pointed out the logic track. But then again, I would expect you to do so. You do what you gotta do... right? :D

Mr Mystery
11-18-2014, 08:48 AM
Again, you're assuming it's GW that demanded it be sealed - you have nothing to support this.

Assets Frozen - unable to service debts. Unable to service debts - bankruptcy potentially, sounds pretty short and curly, spesh when it would appear their appeal to have the freeze removed wasn't successful.

You've also made up that CH got out of paying GW - no evidence for this at all.

Why would CH cave and seek paxies if their position was as strong as you claim it to be (despite having no evidence either way)

Again, I'm the one asking questions, as opposed to pulling 'facts' out my rear end in order to support a frankly bizarre vendetta against a company.

DarkLink
11-18-2014, 08:55 AM
Just ignore Caitsidhe. He assumes that GW is 100% incompetent and completely and utterly fails in literally everything they do, so of course this was all CHS's secret master plan and GW is just trying to hide their embarrassment.

Mr Mystery
11-18-2014, 09:04 AM
Oh I normally do, just wary his odd assumptions and conclusions might be taken by some to be gospel truth, as opposed to drivel.

Erik Setzer
11-18-2014, 09:20 AM
So does anyone know what the injunction that they're referring to is?

"The Court shall retain jurisdiction to enforce the Injunction originally entered on December 5, 2013, and as modified by the parties’ settlement."

Mr Mystery
11-18-2014, 09:25 AM
No idea!

Morgrim
11-18-2014, 09:35 AM
Given their size, simply by playing the long delaying game Games Workshop could probably have won the battle. But maybe they decided that by doing so they'd lose the war? The more stuff that this case was going on the more consumers seemed to be turning against them, and the greater the chances of more court decisions that could negatively impact Games Workshop in the long run via the courts declaring miniatures are more like car parts (meaning you cannot say that your part is the same as Ford's, but you can actively advertise it as compatible with Ford vehicles, etc).

Combine the two factors and that's encouragement for GW not to draw things out, even if they could crush Chapterhouse.

40kGamer
11-18-2014, 10:01 AM
PDF of injunction attached.

- - - Updated - - -

GAMES WORKSHOP LIMITED, Plaintiff, v. CHAPTERHOUSE STUDIOS LLC and JON PAULSON d/b/a PAULSON GAMES Defendants.
Civil Action No. 1:10-cv-8103
Hon. Matthew F. Kennelly

PERMANENT INJUNCTION

Whereas this action was tried by a jury with Hon. Matthew F. Kennelly presiding, and the jury rendered a verdict on June 14, 2013 finding infringement of certain copyrights and trademarks of Games Workshop Limited (“Games Workshop”), and whereas the Court entered Judgment on June 27, 2013, the Court now issues this Permanent Injunction against Chapterhouse Studios LLC (“Chapterhouse”):.

1. Chapterhouse, its agents, representatives, employees, assigns, and suppliers, and all persons acting in concert or privity with them, are hereby permanently enjoined from:

a. Reproducing, distributing, displaying, preparing derivative works, selling or otherwise infringing any of Games Workshop’s copyrights with respect to the below Chapterhouse products (identified by reference to product numbering in Plaintiff's Trial Exhibits 1020 and 1021): Skull or Chaplain Head or Bit for Power Armor (product 3); Selected Shoulder pads: “Terminator pad for Exorcist Space Marine,” “Power Armour Pad for Exorcist,” one of the “Sawblade Shoulder Pad & Jewel” pads, “Shoulder Pad for Serpent or Iron Snakes – Terminator,” “Shoulder Pad for Serpent or Iron Snakes – Tactical,” “Shoulder Pad w/ skull and flames - tactical”, “Shoulder Pad w/ Studs and Skull for 28mm marine - Tactical”, “Shoulder Pads for Chalice or Soul Drinker – Tactical,” “Shoulder Pads for Chalice or Soul Drinker – Terminator,” “Hammer of Dorn Power Armor Pad,” “Hammer of Dorn Terminator Pad,” “Power Armor Shoulder Pad for Scythes of the Emperor,” “Scythes of the Emperor Terminator Shoulder Pad” (Products 10, 11, 12, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, 149, 150, 153, 154); Assault Shoulder pad with number VII and VIII, Devastator marine shoulder pad with IX and X, Tactical shoulder pad with I, II, III, IV, IV, and VI (Products 46, 47, 51, 52, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62); Crested shoulder pad (Product 49); “Generic Power Armour Shoulder Pad” and “Smooth Shoulder Pad for 28mm tactical – marine” (Products 54, 55); “Banded Tech Pad” and “Banded Armor Pad” compatible with power armor and terminator armor (Products 68, 73, 74); Studded rimmed shoulder pad MKV, MK I Heresy Era for 28 mm Marines “Thunder Armor” shoulder pad, studded power armor pad for MK 5 (Products 75, 78, 80); Tervigon conversion kit (Product 37); Heresy Era Jump Pack (Product 76); Spikey heresy heads (Product 79); Wolf Rhino Conversion Kit #1 and Wolf Rhino Conversion Kit #2 (Products 82, 104); Iron Snake conversion kit for Rhino (Product 106); Doomseer Iyanar Duanna (Product 108); Gun Halberd (Product 112); Conversion Beamer Servo Harness (Product 113); Armana'serq Scorpion Warrior Princess (Product 123); Open-Fisted power claws and Closed-Fisted power claws (Products 132, 133); TRU Scale Knights Praetorius “Order of the Empress’s Tears”Conversion Kit and TRU-Scale Knight Praetorius Conversion Kit (Products 142, 143); “Shrike Conversion Kit” (Product 159); Dark Elf Arch Torturess (Product 160). In limiting Chapterhouse’s right to make derivative works of Games Workshop’s works, nothing herein shall limit Chapterhouse’s right to make works derivative of its own products (including the products identified above), provided that those new derivative products are not derivative works of Games Workshop works. Further, nothing shall limit Chapterhouse’s right to raise any defense with respect to any accused derivative work.

b. Using any of the following trademarks to name or identify its products, or in any other manner that is likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake or to deceive:

(i) Adeptus Mechanicus (ii) Flesh Tearers (iii) Genestealer (iv) Howling Griffons (v) Imperial Guard (vi) Iron Hands (vii) Land Raider (viii) Predator (ix) Rhino (x) Salamander (xi) Soul Drinker (xii) Stormraven (xiii) Storm Shield (xiv) Techmarine (xv) Thousand Sons (xvi) Thunder Hammer (xvii) Tyrant (xviii) Tyranid (xix) Flesh Tearer Icon (xx) Imperial Fist Icon (xxi) Legion of the Damned Icon (xxii) Space Marine Tactical Squad Icon (xxiii) Space Marine Devastator Squad Icon (xxiv) Space Marine Assault Squad Icon (xxv) Iron Hands Icon (xxvi) Space Wolves Icon (xxvii) Salamanders Icon (xxviii) Blood Ravens (xxix) Exorcist (xxx) Jump Pack (xxxi) Mycetic Spore (xxxii) Tervigon (xxxiii) Ymgarl (xxxiv) Exorcist Icon (xxxv) Iron Snakes Icon (xxxvi) Soul Drinkers Icon (xxxvii) Scythes of the Emperor Icon (xxxviii) Hammer of Dorn Icon.

2. Within 14 days of this Judgment, Chapterhouse shall deliver up to counsel for Games Workshop for destruction, all inventory, molds, masters, or other means of making the Chapterhouse products identified above in paragraph 2(a) and or that contain any of the infringed trademarks identified above in paragraph 2(b). Counsel for Games Workshop shall hold these items and not destroy them until such a time as all appeals have been exhausted.

3. The Court shall maintain continuing jurisdiction over this action for the purpose of enforcing this Judgment.

Date: December 5, 2013
________________________________________
Matthew F. Kennelly
United States District Judge

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 10:05 AM
Just ignore Caitsidhe. He assumes that GW is 100% incompetent and completely and utterly fails in literally everything they do, so of course this was all CHS's secret master plan and GW is just trying to hide their embarrassment.

<laughs> Hardly. I think Chapterhouse should have fought myself. It would have been long and painful but they could (in time) have shown malicious intent on Games Workshop to "game the system" so to speak and countersued for damages. I'm not Chapterhouse, however, and not having to deal with this silliness. Having an end of it which doesn't cost me any money (even makes a bit) is probably quite palatable. The consumer already won this battle and the rights of competitors and small companies to make parts for use with Games Workshop has been chiseled into stone now. I don't think ANY of this was Chapterhouse's plan or desire. They were just the small company picked to be an "easy win" which didn't quite work out. :D In terms of literature, this has been a epic tragedy in that Games Workshop has been the impetus and master of its own fate all the way through. You will recall that I accurately predicted (disagreeing with the same people here) the outcome of the court case. If that has any bearing on my speculations now, you take it with a grain of salt. I do believe that Games Workshop just wants this to "go away" and used the carrot and the stick leverage.

Until someone can give us a damn good reason either Games Workshop or Chapterhouse would want to seal the terms of the "settlement," it is clear the terms were quite faborable to Chapterhouse (and sealing it being at the request of Games Workshop). I think Chapterhouse broke even. I think Games Workshop wasted a huge amount of money on this debacle only to fail to get anything they wanted in legal precedent. How exactly can we spin this as a victory for Games Workshop? Seriously? In what light can this entire case which shown them in a bad light to the very customers they service, cost them an obscene amount of money, and failed to achieve their legal means be considered a victory?

Path Walker
11-18-2014, 10:05 AM
I don't like how much GW charges for models therefore I think they don't know what they're doing when it comes to a courtroom.

Mr Mystery
11-18-2014, 10:10 AM
No, you precited CH would be exonnerate, in wonderfully vague terms.

And please, stop making stuff up.

As others have said - it's pretty standard practice for out of court settlements to be sealed - so why the paranoia?

Victory for GW - awarded money, and CH prevented from using their IP. Plus whatever is in the mystery bag.

It's also worth reiterating once again, for the hard of understanding - it was the using GW's IP, not making bitz that landed CH in court.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't like how much GW charges for models therefore I think they don't know what they're doing when it comes to a courtroom.

I think a bit of wee just came out.....

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 10:16 AM
No, you precited CH would be exonnerate, in wonderfully vague terms.

Actually, I didn't. I can go back and quote myself. I was quite specific.


And please, stop making stuff up.

I haven't. Please explain?


As others have said - it's pretty standard practice for out of court settlements to be sealed - so why the paranoia?

It is standard practice but it is always because one side wants the terms kept quite (and always with a reason). What is the reason here? If Games Workshop succeed (as you imply) of making and example of Chapterhouse and had them by the short and curlies, why not make it public? Why not demonstrate how thoroughly they were taken to the woodshed? :D That was the point of the original case was it not?


Victory for GW - awarded money, and CH prevented from using their IP. Plus whatever is in the mystery bag.

Actually we don't know that they will receive any money. The terms of the "settlement" quite likely included obsolving Chapterhouse from the nominal judgement.


It's also worth reiterating once again, for the hard of understanding - it was the using GW's IP, not making bitz that landed CH in court.

And for those trying to spin the facts, Games Workshop's original intent was far more broad. Their intent was to stop people from making bitz that were even REMOTELY useable with their IP. They lost on all of that and had only a small portion of items given to their argument. In short, they swung for the fences and struck out. Their goal was very clear in the original complaint and they failed to achieve it.

Mr Mystery
11-18-2014, 10:22 AM
You keep on that CH don't have to pay anything, as if it's fact - when nobody except CH, GW and their solicitors know. Hence, making stuff up.

Going on about how it must be GW wanting stuff sealed, when it's standard practice - making stuff up.

CH say they'll be back with 'unrestricted' items - by the end of the week, allegedly....

40kGamer
11-18-2014, 10:23 AM
If Games Workshop made any error in judgement related to this court case it would be that they woefully underestimated the stupidity of the US legal system. At the end of the day Chapterhouse issued a blatant challenge that GW could not ignore. They basically walked into a biker bar and poured a beer over the head of the biggest baddest gang member there. While I'm not always a fan of GW's business practices, I don't think other companies should make $ off of their IP. If GW will not license their IP for use then these companies should just come up with their own ideas. It's bad enough the world has to deal with the blatant forgeries coming out of China and Russia without the more civilized nations allowing this type of behavior.

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 10:26 AM
You keep on that CH don't have to pay anything, as if it's fact

No. I am quite specific that I am speculating on what I think was included in the terms of the settlement. I am crystal clear that this is my opinion and I support my arguments with logic. I never state that I know it or that any of it is is fact.


Going on about how it must be GW wanting stuff sealed, when it's standard practice - making stuff up.

That is also not making things up. It is standard practice because somebody wants it sealed. It is also quite common for the terms to NOT be sealed. That happens all the time too, generally when one party has a slam dunk case and is attempting to make an example. The only time terms are sealed by standard practice is when one of the two parties has the power to demand it or when both parties have some value in agreeing to do it (like say good terms for one side or the other to keep quiet).


CH say they'll be back with 'unrestricted' items - by the end of the week, allegedly....

I didn't say that either. Where exactly are you getting this? If you are blurring my words with someone else's I would like you to correct that?

40kGamer
11-18-2014, 10:31 AM
It is standard practice but it is always because one side wants the terms kept quite (and always with a reason).

This much is true from every case I've been involved in which is far more then any non lawyer should deal with in a lifetime.


And for those trying to spin the facts, Games Workshop's original intent was far more broad. Their intent was to stop people from making bitz that were even REMOTELY useable with their IP. They lost on all of that and had only a small portion of items given to their argument. In short, they swung for the fences and struck out. Their goal was very clear in the original complaint and they failed to achieve it.

Well if 'that' was their goal they were not swinging for the fences they were completely off their rocker. There are way too many US companies that operate in the after market category. So no chance the courts would ever side with GW on banning people from making anything that could be used with their product. Can you imagine the precedent that would create? It would invite chaos!

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 10:33 AM
If Games Workshop made any error in judgement related to this court case it would be that they woefully underestimated the stupidity of the US legal system.

So their losses in court do not indicate that they were wrong, only that the U.S. legal system is stupid. Ok. You are aware that George Lucas had a very similar court case in Britain a few years back that covered the same kind of IP issues and lost the same way right? So I guess the British and Amerian legal systems sit in the corner wearing dunce hats together.


At the end of the day Chapterhouse issued a blatant challenge that GW could not ignore. They basically walked into a biker bar and poured a beer over the head of the biggest baddest gang member there. While I'm not always a fan of GW's business practices, I don't think other companies should make $ off of their IP. If GW will not license their IP for use then these companies should just come up with their own ideas. It's bad enough the world has to deal with the blatant forgeries coming out of China and Russia without the more civilized nations allowing this type of behavior.

And let's address this shall we... why are they spending their hard earned money going after someone like Chapterhouse who costs them next to nothing when they are losing millions of dollars to yoymart.com on a weekly or monthly basis? :D

40kGamer
11-18-2014, 10:41 AM
So their losses in court do not indicate that they were wrong, only that the U.S. legal system is stupid. Ok. You are aware that George Lucas had a very similar court case in Britain a few years back that covered the same kind of IP issues and lost the same way right? So I guess the British and Amerian legal systems sit in the corner wearing dunce hats together.

Well since a lot of our legal system derives from our British forefathers this actually makes sense... I would still propose that we have created a system that is very well described as a special kind of stupid. :p

- - - Updated - - -


And let's address this shall we... why are they spending their hard earned money going after someone like Chapterhouse who costs them next to nothing when they are losing millions of dollars to yoymart.com on a weekly or monthly basis? :D

Is yoymart a Chinese company? If so that case is lost before it is even filed.

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 10:43 AM
Well since a lot of our legal system derives from our British forefathers this actually makes sense... I would still propose that we have created a system that is very well described as a special kind of stupid. :p

We will have to agree to disagree there. I happen to think that both systems work pretty well on the whole (which is impressive considering the complexity of human social systems). I don't believe people get to own an idea. I think they can have the rights to a specific process and specific rendering, but ideas belong to everyone and there are very few original ones. Games Workshop has very few original ideas or concepts in their own IP (most of which were thrown together from well documented sources). I also believe in the Public Domain (which doesn't matter here right now but will eventually). Games Workshop is hardly the first company that has wanted to plant a flag on an idea or concept nor will they be the last.

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 10:53 AM
Is yoymart a Chinese company? If so that case is lost before it is even filed.

Probably. I've never looked too closely to see where they truly originate from. Certainly the products cast and shipped are from China but these days the monetary support and true point of origin could be anywhere. My point is that there are more serious issues upon which Games Workshop could focus, and there are legal steps they could take to try and stem that tide. They don't bother because they were never interested in a real fight. Chapterhouse wasn't picked because they were arrogant. They weren't picked because they infringed anymore deeply than any of the other companies of the same type. They were picked because they were deemed an "easy win." The idea was to pick on some small company (the gimme) to get a legal precedent set. Once a precedent is set, most future cases use that as a benchmark. If Chapterhouse had rolled over without going to court it would have set a great example, and had they lost in court the precedents would have been worth their weight in gold. From the point of view of Games Workshop it was Win-Win. That is, of course, until you lose.

To put this in perspective, I believe that only myself and two others in my own area ever bought anything from Chapterhouse. I purchased their jump packs. They are great. :D A few friends of mine grabbed various bits to personalize their Games Workshop stuff. They key being that we were all putting the CH stuff on Games Workshop models we had purchased or traded for in the first place. All told, I think combined we spent about a 140.00 bucks. When you compare that to the fact that I know one person who has purchased over a thousand dollars from yoymart.com of Knights and other super heavies.... and by a 1K I'm talking about yoymart prices not that of Games Workshop, we are looking at a loss on one individual of probably 3K in sales. :D I also happen to know lots and lots of people who order from them. So who is actually the threat? Whom SHOULD Games Workshop be going after?

40kGamer
11-18-2014, 10:55 AM
We will have to agree to disagree there. I happen to think that both systems work pretty well on the whole (which is impressive considering the complexity of human social systems). I don't believe people get to own an idea. I think they can have the rights to a specific process and specific rendering, but ideas belong to everyone and there are very few original ones. Games Workshop has very few original ideas or concepts in their own IP (most of which were thrown together from well documented sources). I also believe in the Public Domain (which doesn't matter here right now but will eventually). Games Workshop is hardly the first company that has wanted to plant a flag on an idea or concept nor will they be the last.

I do have to concede that the systems basically work well given their complexity. My remark is aimed more at the overall design, complexity and insanity that is the system itself.

And I also agree that companies can't own an idea but deciding where to draw the line between "ideas" and "renderings" is problematic. Obviously GW can't own Space Marines in general but they should be able to own the rights to their interpretation of what is a Space Marine.

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 11:02 AM
And I also agree that companies can't own an idea but deciding where to draw the line between "ideas" and "renderings" is problematic. Obviously GW can't own Space Marines in general but they should be able to own the rights to their interpretation of what is a Space Marine.

We agree there. The problem is even their particular interpretation of a Space Marine is pretty generic. :D Soldiers in space sporting power armor has been around about as long as Science Fiction. Therein lies their problem. Heinlein (among many others) got there first. His Starship Troopers were not like those in the movie. They were guys in power armor running around in smaller scale units blowing bugs up. And let's not belabor the obvious fact that Tyranids are directly taken from Heinlien's work. I could go on and on but we all already know this. I don't give Games Workshop too much grief over their blatant sloppy seconds because the "idea" of a Space Marine belongs to the public. The idea of space bugs with a hive mind are generic. From Heinlein to Orson Scott Card and later to role playing books we get space cockroaches. Do I think Games Workshop are taking from other IPs? Of course they are. Do I sit around calling them thieves and parasites for it? No. What I will call them is hypocrits when they engage in the behavior and then expect nobody to do it to them.

40kGamer
11-18-2014, 11:15 AM
We agree there. The problem is even their particular interpretation of a Space Marine is pretty generic. :D Soldiers in space sporting power armor has been around about as long as Science Fiction. Therein lies their problem. Heinlein (among many others) got there first. His Starship Troopers were not like those in the movie. They were guys in power armor running around in smaller scale units blowing bugs up. And let's not belabor the obvious fact that Tyranids are directly taken from Heinlien's work. I could go on and on but we all already know this. I don't give Games Workshop too much grief over their blatant sloppy seconds because the "idea" of a Space Marine belongs to the public. The idea of space bugs with a hive mind are generic. From Heinlein to Orson Scott Card and later to role playing books we get space cockroaches. Do I think Games Workshop are taking from other IPs? Of course they are. Do I sit around calling them thieves and parasites for it? No. What I will call them is hypocrits when they engage in the behavior and then expect nobody to do it to them.

Ah Heinlein's work... so much better then the movie. :p

Noone can successfully argue that GW hasn't ripped off the established IP from Heinlein to Tolkein... a lot of their success comes from the fact that their products are 'familiar'... even the Tau are derived from Japanese anime. Further supported by their introduction around the time GW went into the Japanese market.

However the overall look, feel and scale of the GW Space Marine should be protected. IMO Chapterhouse jumped the shark when they tried to introduce entire models with the look and feel of the GW models. The Striking Scorpion Exarch and the Eldar Psyker come to mind, as does the Truescale Marines...

If they had stayed in the realm of aftermarket add on parts like shoulder pads I would be surprised if GW made the effort to open a legal battle. I was actually surprised at how many conversion kits and shoulder pads were banned by the courts.

Caitsidhe
11-18-2014, 11:21 AM
If they had stayed in the realm of aftermarket add on parts like shoulder pads I would be surprised if GW made the effort to open a legal battle. I was actually surprised at how many conversion kits and shoulder pads were banned by the courts.

I was too and I think those would have been overturned had it been appealed. That is just one more reason it is better it goes away from a Games Workshop perspective. All in all I think Games Workshop has finally started taking steps in the right direction. This was never a good use of their time or money. It is best that it is settled and gone. It is perhaps the only sign of them moving in the right direction I have seen yet. I hope to see more. Contrary to popular belief, I would rather Games Workshop get back to where they were 10-15 years ago (when they were on top of their game) than continue on their present course.

sebigboss79
11-19-2014, 03:22 AM
I really cannot understand why anyone in their sane mind would call it a win or even a draw for GW.

Please care to explain what exactly was won? The case more or less sets the example how to screw GW on their own IP, nothing else. GW had to define their IP - fact. So staying just enough outside that IP is good enough for any "IP-thief" - fact. IF GW thinks otherwise or wants to extend their IP they have to sue / extend their IP - both witll COST them money but let us try, once more, to analyse this.

Why did GW sue?
Certainly neither fame nor money, they have enough of either, so that leaves getting CHS out of business.

Did they succeed?
Well the website is not up as of now and the FB page is gone as well. Will there be an explanation? Yes, of course unless CHS has decided to take the KS money and run - which will severely backfire - they will make an announcement sooner or later. The point is that the settlement, or the terms to put CHS out of business ARE NOT KNOWN TO US!

That also means the terms could be that GW pays CHS money to stop doing business, WE DO NOT KNOW!
But to assert that GW won is more than just far fetched. If they won, why seal the records?

As stated before IF GW had won they would want everybody to know they better stay away from GW turf or they get sued and crushed. Is that the case? No, the records are sealed.
IF GW lost, would they want the records to be sealed? Of course! They do not want anyone to know that people can infringe GWs IP and get away with it.

I will even go as far as this: IF GW had been awarded any damages they would have insisted on this going on public record to make an example, period. Anything below "crushing CHS" on the other hand I would like to have outside of public access for the very reason above.

HOW can anyone be, forgive me, delusional enough to think otherwise? Too much Tom Kirby indoctrination maybe? Having ideas and ideals is a wonderful thing but both must be tempered with reality, and that is still THE RECORDS ARE SEALED! We can only deduct the most likely course of events - that is if we live in reality.

Now if I was CHS why would I want the records to be sealed?
If I had lost I would want the whole world to know how bad GW has treated an "innocent businesman", the world siding with CHS, shouting "murrica the beautiful" and demand GWs executives to be publicly hanged. Nevermind that CHS indeed is at fault here but has anyone ever contemplated that? No, people sided with CHS because of how GW handled this matter. Even morewith that judgement made I would go and have my 25k damages crowdfunded by the masses that sided with me and want to see me screwing GW some more. Again, facts do not matter at that stage, public perception is all here.

IF CHS had won they would also demand this to be in public access to show how a little business can screw GW and get away with it.

Why would anyone want the terms of the settlement sealed?
Because it was unfavourable to them and as displayed above the only case where that would happen was if GW realised they would badly loose.

Now to my knowledge the American legal system operates on a "nulla poene sine lege" principle which means even IF the law had been changed in GWs favour it would not apply for an ongoing case. The law had already decided that GW was wrong in most cases - whether we agree or not (I don't).

I sincerely hope GW has realised they cannot win this fight in a courtroom. As I said earlier the defendant would simply transfer a copy of the mould to another business entity and GW has to do the whole sueing and stuff again and again ad infinitum. Rather than wasting money on lawyers why not invest in my own IP and make my stuff better than those who I want out of business? Why not deliver the best customer service possible? Why not make it thus perfectly clear that only GW is real GW and REAL fans only play the real McCoy?

I am afraid the reasoning still stands and you can assume as long as you want that GW won but calling it assumption if someone says otherwise does not really make your point. Now I do know there are those among us (usually one particular nationality) that is right despite evidence to the contrary. But to be brutally honest it makes it a real laughing stock, denying your only valid point of legitimacy. We do not know the settlement, period. If you live in reality you will be able to follow the reasoning on why the records were sealed. That does not mean it is correct but sooner or later things will transpire and I care to observe who often those being right despite contrary evidence had their opinion handed to them. Unfortunately it does not make them any wiser.

Mr Mystery
11-19-2014, 06:18 AM
Except all copies of the moulds have to be given to GW's counsel for destruction, as per the court thingy on the other page. If a copy shows up again, CH would be in pretty big trouble.

Nor can they just claim to have sent everything - they'll have an inventory knocking around somewhere I'm sure, if only for tax reasons.

I don't think anyone is saying GW 'won' as such. Instead, those claiming this is a victory for CH seem to be on the wrong track, wilfully skewing every bit of evidence we have to support incresingly bizarre assertions.

Now, that GW got a settlement out of CH seems fairly safe to assume, rather than the other way around, as the last public records appear to have the boot on GW's foot - the freezing of assets being the equivalent of a headlock.

Sealing of records also established to be a common practice - and if the above is correct, then why would GW demand it, seeing as it seems they were the ones to force the settlement.

We will never know the contents of the sealed stuff for obvious reasons, but Caitsidhe banging on about what is 'likely' (such as GW not getting the money the court awarded in the first round) is bunkum. Possible? Yes, absolutely. Likely? Nope - nothing to support that.

Whether you feel GW deserved the bargaining power of the frozen assets is largely immaterial - they obtained it, and it seems CH failed to get it repealed (possibly the wrong term), which lead to the settlement.

This means prior to the settlement, GW could have just starved CH out, forcing the company into bankruptcy without threatening the award the court made earlier. What incentive was there for GW to agree to a less than 'in their favour settlement' from that position?

And this seems to be what some are missing. From what we know, GW had the upper hand, however underhandedly some might feel they were in obtaining it.

The rest, on both sides, is wishful thinking. As you said, we'll have to wait and see if or when (apparently Warseer, possibly Dakka has a date of end of the week for the website) CH return online, apparently with 'unrestricted' items (wording from Warseer/Dakka, not myself).

Caitsidhe
11-19-2014, 08:00 AM
I never said I thought Chapterhouse won, only that they broke even. To win they would have been left alone to continue their business. All I said is this was one big stinker of a loser for Games Workshop. Many court cases go this way, i.e. where there are no winners but one clear loser. I wouldn't go so far as to say we will never know the sealed terms either, as in this day in age they have disturbing tendency to leak out. It might take a couple of years but eventually we will know. :D That being said, my opinions on the likley settlement are driven entirely but logic and can be soundly supported. I'm still waiting on any kind of supporting arguments as to why either party in this affair would want the terms sealed if it went in a manner favorable to Games Workshop. I'm always open to avenues I might have overlooked and my opinion could be changed if something is submitted which supports things going the other way. I'm not holding my breath waiting for someone to provide any (as I found none myself) but I will consider it if provided.

*And to put things in perspective, here is a quick search (I'll do more later when I get back) which discusses how often things are "sealed." Granted this article discusses Federal Courts, but it is in NO WAY the automatic standard to seal settlements in other courts either. Things get sealed only for reasons: http://www.uscourts.gov/news/TheThirdBranch/04-06-01/Sealed_Settlements_Relatively_Rare_in_Federal_Cour t.aspx

40kGamer
11-19-2014, 08:25 AM
Except all copies of the moulds have to be given to GW's counsel for destruction, as per the court thingy on the other page. If a copy shows up again, CH would be in pretty big trouble.

From your belief in this actually happening I presume that either people are more honest in the UK, or that you haven't fully embraced the appropriate mindset?

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3807357696/h85B82A59/

Mr Mystery
11-19-2014, 08:28 AM
It's not in CH's interest to play hooky on that one.

By not surrendering all the moulds the court ordered, they arm GW with a mighty big hitting stick, and one no amount of pro-bono would get them out of. If knock off CH stuff turns up (but why would it? Their sculpts aren't exactly quality), there seems only one likely source of said moulding.....

40kGamer
11-19-2014, 08:42 AM
It's not in CH's interest to play hooky on that one.

By not surrendering all the moulds the court ordered, they arm GW with a mighty big hitting stick, and one no amount of pro-bono would get them out of. If knock off CH stuff turns up (but why would it? Their sculpts aren't exactly quality), there seems only one likely source of said moulding.....

Plausible deniability my friend. They could proclaim their innocence by asserting that the other party made a copy of their originals and then offered them to the public. Think of the irony of CH claiming to be a victim of piracy! Plus if these copies turned up from China or Russia so much the better. I really don't think this will happen though. As you pointed out their product isn't of high enough quality nor is there enough market demand to make skirting the court order even remotely worth it.

Caitsidhe
11-19-2014, 12:18 PM
Now that I'm back I can comment again on the nature of "sealed" settlements. I provided a page wherein pretty reliable information can be found and even an article. On average one in two hundred Federal cases involving civil suits gets sealed. Lots of people on here have been trying to play off the sealed settlement terms as "standard practice." I'm not certain either country (United States or Great Britain) considers half a percent of cases to be standard practice. Wouldn't the MAJORITY of cases be sealed for that to be the case? :D

This brings us back to my original contention, that the terms are sealed because one (or both) of the parties involved want them sealed. Ok, why would that be so? If Games Workshop soundly defeated and extracted penalizing terms from Chapterhouse, why wouldn't they want that known? That was the point of the case. It would allow them to show their stockholders and investors that all that money they spent on the case was not wasted. More to the point, a demonstration of punishment would serve as an effective tool to dissuade future Chapterhouse wannabes. In short, Games Workshop has every reason to want those settlement terms public, unless of course they aren't favorable to them. If they didn't really penalize Chapterhouse, they have every reason to want them sealed as it would be a further embarrassment. This brings us back, of course, to my supporting my arguments and opinions logically. I'm still waiting for any logical reason that Games Workshop would want these terms sealed, something I may have missed or not considered?

Mr Mystery
11-19-2014, 03:00 PM
There's lots of possible reasons.

Perhaps it is GW.

Perhaps it's CH.

Perhaps it's the preferred method for one or both of the Counsels.

Perhaps CH got caught by their counsel having told porky pies, and they advised time to settle, and we'll get it sealed.

Perhaps you're spot on.

Perhaps the Pro-Bono was withdrawn, and CH's counsel felt public knowledge might damage their brand reputation?

Perhaps GW wanted it sealed so nobody really knows what was given up, intending that it would lead to others producing stuff on what they consider their IP to tread carefully?

What we do know, is that the initial ruling stands - so nothing got better or worse for either party based off that.

Regardless of who asked for sealing, or why - it does appear from what we know GW were in the stronger bargaining position thanks to the asset freeze. So based on what we actually know (not much), I just don't see what clout CH's counsel would be able to bring to bare.

sebigboss79
11-20-2014, 04:05 AM
The "we don't know" is exactly the point. To say your opinion cannot be right because it is opionion and we don't know you cannot credibly turn around and give the opposing view as fact.

I tend to look at the argument "cui bono" - who profits and that leads me to a conclusion. Concerning the argument that "pro bono" was withdrawn I must say I seem to recall the counsel said "pro bono until we have won" sort of thing. Essentially they said they would go down with the client but of course opinions can change, it is just I doubt it. I find it much more believable that GW finally saw they ain't gonna "win".

As to the matter of moulds turning up elsewhere the "plausible deniability" is spot on. Moreover if GW suspects CHS of "cheating" they have to proove it beyond doubt. Do I as a German (living in UK) really have to tell YOU how the American legal system works? Innocent until prooven guilty. I know the internet has turned this to guilty until prooven innocent but that would actually work against GW here.

What it looks like to the neutral observer is that a large company crakcs down on a small one - without prior attempt to settle the matter outside a courtroom. Remember GW could not produce any C&D or other communication that shows they tried amicably?

Summarising all that I doubt CHS had anything to gain from a settlement outside the courtroom. As for the "freeze of assets" problem -and I am merely speculating from how I operate my business- CHS did not care that much. The money will not go away, it is just that you cannot make more money and customers suffer. But most customers would not be reasonable nut blame GW for this. Also remember there have been no terms as yet how the damages are to be paid. CHS could have asked to pay in installments and establish a payment plan. Without that CHS can turn around and blame GW for any bills they cannot pay and most people will buy it. The blame always can be shifted.

So if that asset freeze was overruled GW would be liable for damages, something I can comfortably wait out and if things go downhill there is always declaring bancruptcy with only exempt assets. Maybe it is exactly what GW wanted to avoid? As of now at least they know who has said moulds and they can calculate how many of those kist can be produced in time x. GW can outproduce CHS if they want to. They can undercut them in price and can deliver better quality. From that point of view the lawsuit actually was a waste of time and mnoney.

Again refer to my post what interest would CHS have in sealed records. They have been branded as the victim and I just cannot see this being turned around. Your idea of "porky pies" has merit but again I find it hard to assume this would come out at the end of a lawsuit and lead to a 180° . If I remember right a counsel can then drop the case - which did not happen. Moreover in such a case it would be damage control if CHS had the documents not sealed and cooked a story to stay in the victim seat. Again, most people would buy it because it is comfortable to blame the big guy rather than the small one. Reality does not matter much on the internet, does it? ;)

GW made the mistake to position them as the bad guy and the inherent problem is also the reason why their sales have dropped like they did. GW has massively understimated corporate image and its impact on more tangibles. Ask yourself whether you buy from a company you like or from one you consider a tyrant? Would you rather side with the tyrant or the "innocent white knight"?

40kGamer
11-24-2014, 11:50 AM
http://blog.hughandcrye.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Theyre-back.png

Chapterhouse has reopened... what's the public verdict?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/11/breaking-chapterhouse-studios-re-opens.html

Caitsidhe
11-24-2014, 09:04 PM
http://blog.hughandcrye.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Theyre-back.png

Chapterhouse has reopened... what's the public verdict?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/11/breaking-chapterhouse-studios-re-opens.html

It looks to me like very little changed on their site or their offerings. It looks to me like my guess as to the quiet, sealed settlement was an out for Games Workshop to try an salvage some face. Everything worked out fine. :D

40kGamer
11-25-2014, 12:11 PM
Is that crickets? Ah well, looks like business as usual for Chapterhouse.

Asymmetrical Xeno
11-25-2014, 06:51 PM
Yeah, I can't see many changes on the website at all, a few items missing - but msot of it is still there, still labelled as compatible with 40k/GW trademarks, still got the heresy kits and upgrade kits ect

Looks like a victory for CH to me.

Caitsidhe
11-26-2014, 02:59 AM
Yeah, I can't see many changes on the website at all, a few items missing - but msot of it is still there, still labelled as compatible with 40k/GW trademarks, still got the heresy kits and upgrade kits ect

Looks like a victory for CH to me.

Oh... most definitely. In short, Games Workshop did NOT want to go back to Court. Cooler heads prevailed and they did the power play to try and withdraw with dignity. As I said before, they used the carrot and the stick. They used the move of costing CH money by freezing assets, a tactic that would NOT have held but was very inconvenient for the "little guy" and then met with them and offered a settlement (sealed of course). Out of that deal, GW got a minimal save of face and the parties walked away before any more money bled out in court. For their part CH is going to be left alone and I would bet my bottom dollar on the fact that they were absolved of the original 20K settlement.

*And for those who will rail and gnash their teeth at my suggestion that CH got let off their minor, original fine... let me point out that CH was going back to Court still sporting FREE legal representation. Games Workshop would have dropped 20K on simple research and filings alone. :D By the time it finished in Court the second time around, Games Workshop would be another 100-500K down. More importantly, there was nothing for Games Workshop to win in Court. All they could do is lose more. Hence, it is good fiscal sense to get the hell away from the issue now. They froze the assets to try and give themselves leverage to make CH want to do it too, i.e. so it would cost CH something to keep going to Court as well. Presto chango! We let you off the 20K and stop messing with your business if you let us out of this bloodsucking lawyer nightmare.

*The REAL winners, the legal firm representing Games Workshop! I'll bet GW gets a Christmas card thanking them for making the last three years so profitable.

AirHorse
11-26-2014, 05:25 AM
Maybe its just me, but I don't get why anyone was expecting much change on their website when it came back up?

Didn't they change the labelling and products on there in response to this lawsuit ages ago? I thought they had made those changes long before it ever got to appeal and freezing of assets. In which case, why would anything be different, no matter what the settlement was?(Assuming CH decided to continue in the industry of course!).

But maybe its just me!

Psychosplodge
11-26-2014, 07:14 AM
All it really shows is US IP law is about one step above China's...

Erik Setzer
11-26-2014, 08:27 AM
All it really shows is US IP law is about one step above China's...

Well, what they have on their site now is stuff that's made to be added to GW kits, mostly, with maybe a handful of exceptions that are honestly pretty moot. They at least are outright saying that they're meant to be used with GW kits and include all the legal disclaimers at the bottom of the website.

Meanwhile, there are multiple other companies making similar bits or whole models - seriously, Kromlech models could replace most of the Orks in an army entirely (and look superior, IMO, but then, they match the Blood Axe aesthetic, so I'm biased by my choice of clan). If GW wanted to push and try to completely obliterate CH's ability to sell such bits, then they'd also have to follow up with taking all those other companies to court, and that would be a disaster for them. Forget PR, they wouldn't be able to afford the legal fees even.

We still don't know what the results of the settlement were. There might be something in there where CH sends GW a cut of their sales. Heck, I'm surprised GW hasn't tried to set up a deal with some of the companies out there to "officially license" bits and make a cut off of those sales, which then benefits everyone (the sellers look more "legit" and GW makes some money they didn't have while doing nothing).

Psychosplodge
11-26-2014, 08:33 AM
iirc someone said they're quite strict with licensing the last time a 40k hollywood film was mentioned so who knows?

40kGamer
11-26-2014, 08:37 AM
All it really shows is US IP law is about one step above China's...

Not sure on the details of the law but from what I understand it is ok to make something that 'complements' someones IP but not ok to completely rip it off. It's an industry spanning thought and compared to the other giant corporations that are always vying for position GW & CH are two kids scrapping in the schoolyard.

Psychosplodge
11-26-2014, 08:42 AM
Yeah it's not quite apple/samsung with its three verdicts :D

40kGamer
11-26-2014, 08:54 AM
Yeah it's not quite apple/samsung with its three verdicts :D

No doubt! Following these megacorp cases shows how insane things can really get! :p

Caitsidhe
11-26-2014, 08:56 AM
On the bright side, if you do dislike Chapterhouse, they are well on the way out the door. Since their profit is based on selling product for use with Games Workshop models, they can only do a booming business as long as Games Workshop is growing. :D Otherwise it is kind of like hitching your wagon to an old, sick nag. I trust you see my point? There has to be enough volume of players (and you will note I say PLAYERS) looking for custom, original material. Pure collectors who just want to collect, assemble, and paint GW product don't have much use for after market product. Thus, as GW cuts off its nose to spite its face, smaller companies who cater to that nose will take a hit.

Psychosplodge
11-26-2014, 08:59 AM
See I would have thought players would have been their smallest demographic as they just need an army to field, and conversion parts that require a base unit are frivolous extras. It's collectors and more important modellers/painters that you need?

Path Walker
11-26-2014, 09:04 AM
On the bright side, if you do dislike Chapterhouse, they are well on the way out the door. Since their profit is based on selling product for use with Games Workshop models, they can only do a booming business as long as Games Workshop is growing. :D Otherwise it is kind of like hitching your wagon to an old, sick nag. I trust you see my point? There has to be enough volume of players (and you will note I say PLAYERS) looking for custom, original material. Pure collectors who just want to collect, assemble, and paint GW product don't have much use for after market product. Thus, as GW cuts off its nose to spite its face, smaller companies who cater to that nose will take a hit.

This is utter nonsense that completly misses the points of both businesses.

After market components are not for "players" unless they're cheap weapon swaps (which GW are better at ensuring you have an ample supply of these day), otherwise they're for collectors who want a unique look.

Most "players" want to play a game, after market kits don't do anything for that.

In your rush to make a snide comment about GW, again, you've accidentally made no sense what so ever, rather than the half-nonsense you normally speak.

Caitsidhe
11-26-2014, 09:10 AM
See I would have thought players would have been their smallest demographic as they just need an army to field, and conversion parts that require a base unit are frivolous extras. It's collectors and more important modellers/painters that you need?

Not at all, at least not in my experience here in the States. Contrary to the popular myth (or perhaps it is just a cultural difference) Players, as opposed to Hobbyists or whatever you want to call them, do take some pride in how their armies look. In some cases it is monetary, as in they are doing the best they can with the parts they can aquire. In some cases it is just wanting to look different. Players are less sentimental and not driven to have only GW product because it is about the game to them, not the name brand. For some it is a bit of both. A purist does conversions but they attempt to use as pure GW product for those conversions as possible. Players use whatever works.

After market product like Chapterhouse caters to those who just want to have unique armies when they play. The hobby for them isn't collecting Games Workshop product (although I have a hard time believing that is the hobby for anyone no matter what GW says in court). For example, I am not a purist. I played the game for the sake of the game. That doesn't mean I didn't want my army to look good. In fact, looking good and original was all that mattered to me. I didn't give a fig about where I got my bits from. I purchased jump packs from Chapterhouse when they were offered because I wanted Jump Packs that looked like that (Hersey era) for my CSM. More importantly, the price point was right. I then magnetized them as I did with all my backpacks so I could make jump troops out of whatever style of CSM I wanted. Some of this was monetary and some of it was just wanting the look.

A guy I know also wanted Heresy era jump packs but he waited and waited and waited until they were eventually released. They did show up (as we all know) and he paid a premium for them. He really enjoyed putting it together, painting them, and so on. I don't think he has used them on the table yet. My point being is there are far more people in the US like me than him. :D

Caitsidhe
11-26-2014, 09:28 AM
This is utter nonsense that completly misses the points of both businesses.

If you say so. So far, my "utter nonsense" has been fairly accurate in playing out. It could also be that I understand the demographics of the American market as opposed to the other markets to whom Games Workshop sells product. I am biased of course, but I don't think I'm missing the point. I think I'm making a point.


After market components are not for "players" unless they're cheap weapon swaps (which GW are better at ensuring you have an ample supply of these day), otherwise they're for collectors who want a unique look.

Again, you are assuming that Players aren't interested in good looking armies. That is a hell of an assumption to make. :D It is your bias, of course, and I won't try to talk you out of it. Monetary reasons are certainly a factor and being able to sell certain things that people want at a better price point is the number one reason people go to after market products, but a close second is uniqueness. Consider cars. Many of those after market products are for making a car unique and interesting looking.


Most "players" want to play a game, after market kits don't do anything for that.

Of coure they do. Playing the game, even for competitive players, is never purely academic. It is an escape. People playing Necrons want something with a Necron flair when they field an Aegis Defense line. CSM players like myself go to great lengths to alter existing Aegis materials to be appropriate. Players don't just want to beat you; they want to beat you with style. I could point out that the most successful, competitive players also have wicked good looking armies. Goatboy comes to mind. :D


In your rush to make a snide comment about GW, again, you've accidentally made no sense what so ever, rather than the half-nonsense you normally speak.

A snide comment would imply I'm being nasty indirectly. I've never been indirect in my commentary about Games Workshop.

40kGamer
11-26-2014, 09:47 AM
After market components are not for "players" unless they're cheap weapon swaps (which GW are better at ensuring you have an ample supply of these day), otherwise they're for collectors who want a unique look. Most "players" want to play a game, after market kits don't do anything for that.

I'm a hobby extremist. Hell, at this point I may even be 'the' extremist that other extremists are measured against... I see a large mixture of people buying from the after market and a large number of them in this area are what I class as 'players'. They want their stuff to be different and they want variety in their army but they lack the time, skill and/or force of will to make it happen on their own. Modeler's will buy after market but are just as likely to make their own truly unique parts to guarantee their stuff is different... and collector's tend to be focused on the pure models over the cheaper (and not always up to par) after market stuff. So it's a mixed bag but in no world does the player group exiting the GW hobby benefit anyone.

Caitsidhe
11-26-2014, 09:57 AM
I'm a hobby extremist. Hell, at this point I may even be 'the' extremist that other extremists are measured against... I see a large mixture of people buying from the after market and a large number of them in this area are what I class as 'players'. They want their stuff to be different and they want variety in their army but they lack the time, skill and/or force of will to make it happen on their own. Modeler's will buy after market but are just as likely to make their own truly unique parts to guarantee their stuff is different... and collector's tend to be focused on the pure models over the cheaper (and not always up to par) after market stuff. So it's a mixed bag but in no world does the player group exiting the GW hobby benefit anyone.

You make an excellent point here that I missed. Many Players want unique but lack the skill in conversions to do them personally. It is a nice option to be able to puchase one. Of course, the same is true for being able to purchase painted armies. I think this myth that Players don't care how their armies look originated from the following:

1. Hobbyists/Purists/Extremists will always have the best looking armies because it is the thing they care about most. Who wouldn't suffer by comparison to these guys and gals?

2. New people to the hobby/game often don't have the skills to paint or convert yet. They are NEW after all and those skills must be acquired. They don't come natural. Thus, new people to the hobby are playing the game far faster than they are able to get their armies ready. This leads some to inaccurately believe that players don't care about how their armies look. People making this assumption are ignoring context.

3. In new crops of people joining they hobby, you will always find the largest concentrations of immature players. Over time these people will be weeded out, ignored, or go away on their own. However, since they are easiest to spot and most numerous to the people just joining in, they often come across as Players (since they also have not had time to learn the skills of painting, converting, etc.). Again, context is ignored and people lump all Players in with these guys.

Serious Players or Hobbyists alike want their armies to look good. It is often for very different reasons, and there is always some overlap too. I will admit to some of the shallow Player reasons. We play for the game. It is a sport. We enjoy winning. We enjoy feeling good about ourselves and looking good is part of it. The sin of Pride. :D Serious, competitive gamers who stick go the Red Baron route eventually. It is almost unavoidable. They end up with awesome armies whether they eventually acquire the skills, pay someone else to do it, or buy product already perfected. I'm pretty sure that all those businesses who make their coin selling well-painted armies have to have CUSTOMERS to stay in business. :D Clearly they aren't selling to the Hobbyist who enjoy doing that themselves. So the only group left for them to be selling to is Players.

lobster-overlord
12-08-2014, 10:48 PM
Don't know if it is in anyway related, but yoymart.com is throwing a DNS error, effectively unreachable through my ISP.

Anyone else seeing this error?

40kGamer
12-09-2014, 08:47 AM
Don't know if it is in anyway related, but yoymart.com is throwing a DNS error, effectively unreachable through my ISP.

Anyone else seeing this error?

They have a note on their FB page saying their website is down. No explanation as to why.

Caitsidhe
12-11-2014, 11:04 AM
They have a note on their FB page saying their website is down. No explanation as to why.

This is what is on their Facebook page currently:

"Dear friend, sorry to tell you that our website is down. any question, please contact [email protected]"