2000 Bugs! Not Again!!!

[Tynskel]

2000/2000

HQ 560
The Defiler:
Tyrant, Toxin Sacs, Bonesword, Lashwhip, Twin-linked Devourer, Thorax Swarm Desiccator Larvae, Hive Commander, Old Adversary
Defiler Guard:
2 Tyrant Guard, 2 Lash Whips
Parasite of Mortrex

Hv SUPPORT 415
170 Mawloc
245 Screamer Killer:
Carnifex, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines, Bio-Plasma
Dedicated Transport: Mycetic Spore, Cluster Spines

ELITES 385
Hive Guard Brood:
3 Hive Guard
Dedicated Transport: Mycetic Spore, Cluster Spines
Doom!:
Doom of Malan'tai
Dedicated Transport: Mycetic Spore, Cluster Spines
Pyrovore

FAST ATTACK 112
Gargoyles:
14 Gargoyles, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands

TROOPS 528
Genestealers:
8 Genestealers, One Genestealer Upgraded to Broodlord
Termagant Brood:
15 Termagants
Hormagaunt Brood:
15 Hormagaunts, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands
Warrior Brood:
4 Warriors, 3 Death Spitters, Barbed Strangler

On tha Board (1107):
Mawloc, Hive Tyrant+Guard, Termagants, Warriors, Gargoyles, and Parasite of Mortrex, Pyrovore
Off the Board (893):
Genestealers (outflank), Hive Guard (Transport), Screamer Killer (Transport), Hormagaunts (outflank), Doom of Malan'tai (Transport)

Burrow Mawloc Turn 1 (Mawloc is on board if realllllly sure it wont get beat up turn 1)
Advance Army.
Turn 2- Reserves: Mawloc automatically comes, 2/3 of all others come in (approximately 3-4 units on average).
Try to have Hive Guard Land and hit side armor. If a lot of the pods come in try to box in opponent, and use the Mawloc 'pushing' rule to possibly straight out eliminate units due to entrapment. Let Doom do its 'thing'.

Any Suggestions?

[mercer]

Your tyrant doesn't want toxin sacs as he is S6 and hits most infantry on a 2+. I think throax swarms are over priced considering, all are a little quirky and have something special but none are mega special.

Two mawlocs are better than one, you've got dual threat which is more important. Fex is ok to support the tyrant, though a pair of devourers would be ok. Maybe a strangler which would force a pinning test and then -1 on morale tests from the tyrants devourer, if caused enough wounds that is. Though I cannot remember is a pinning test is a leadership or morale test, I think its leadership.

pyrovore isn't that good really, if you take one I would give it a spore so it gets into range quicker and easier.

I would drop the warriors and get another stealer brood. Gives you unit redundany and dual threat, plus the warriors don't add a much more besides ranged fire power. Or perhaps make the hormagaunts stealers instead.

Hope that helps.

[Ghoulio]

The main thing I would suggest on this list are really cutting back on stuff that you just dont need.

Hive Tyrant - As Mercer said get rid of the thorax sward. Easily one of the most overcosted/useless upgrades you can take on a tyrant other then maybe Indescribable Horror. You will never use it, i assure you. Also, I doubt I would take both Old Adversary AND Hive Commander. I would figure out how you want to play your army, then just commit to it (ie if you want to do a lot with special deployment, take hive commander, if you think your Tyrant will be stuck in the entire game, the old adversary is ace). Also, again, as Mercer said, remove toxin sacs

Elites
Hive Guard - Hive Guard cant take a spore
Pyrovore - easily the single worst unit in the book (maybe any book lol). That being said IF you want to use it you HAVE to take 3 and you pretty much HAVE to give them a spore. If you dont do those, then dont bother

Troops
Hormagaunts - I wouldnt bother with Adrenal glands on these guys. Its too expensive and they are already Init 5. Having Toxin Sacs is incredible though. I had these guys just WORK a Wraithguard in one round of hand to hand, it was great :)
Genestealers - This one is a preference thing. After really figuring out their psychic powers and realizing they are no where near as good as I thought they were I decided to just go with 4 stealers (which is what one BL costs).

Fast Attack
Gargoyles - maybe the single best unit in the codex. For just 8 points you can get something with both upgrades, special wounding when you roll to hit, 12" move AND bolt pistols...amazing. I would get more :P

Heavy Support
Mawloc - I personally think they are a waste of points when you consider just how much better a Trygon is for 30 more points
Carnifex - For 45 points LESS you can get something that comes with an assault 6, str 5 gun, +2 WS, -3str, +3 Wounds, +3 Initi, +2 A, FLEET and comes with a free safe deepstrike that gives you yet another deployment option. In my opinion the ONLY thing you could use a fex for is some for of shooting. Other then that they have made a Trygon a million times better.

Hope that helps!

[Tynskel]

hmmm...

The Warriors are in there for Synapse Redundancy/ firepower. The Pyrovore is a throw away unit that marches with everyone else. I thought about giving it a spore, but the Squad really needs to be beefed up to at least 2 maybe 3 before spending 40+ points on a spore makes it really worth while.

Granted- I could swap all the gaunts and the warriors (~370 pts) for ~26 Genestealers (I do have enough Genestealers to pull that off). At that point, it might be better to take the Swarmlord (genestealers + Swarmlord just feel right to me).

The Pinning check is separate from the Moral Check-- the Devourers cause -1 on moral check. I thought about the Stranglethorn, but I want the army to run until it is ~15 inch from the opponent- then open up with the weapons.

I designed the Defiler Tyrant to go after anything, and do it well. The Thorax Swarm is 2+ to wound. The reason the Thorax is 25 points is that it fires in addition to the normal firepower. In this case: Psychic Shooting attack, Devourers, and then, Thorax. With the Toxin Sacs, the Tyrant can go toe to toe with just anything. Avatar? re-roll to wound- Daemon Prince, Re-roll to wound. Captain- re-roll to wound. Granted 2+ is better verses infantry- but I am willing to sacrifice the 8%(~1 n' 10 rolls) success rate in exchange for 75% success rate vs everything but toughness 7+ (yet still have 50% to wound, and an instant death check).

I thought about 2 Mawlocs, but I have two reasons why I didn't choose 2. 1) I don't have a second one! Hah! 2) I am worried about scattering on top of each other. A better choice would be Mawloc and Trygon. The Trygon has a good chance of landing on target (drop pod guidance rule) and the Mawloc would be able to pinch. Not having a second Snake, I went with the Screamer Killer. It call pull off the pinch with the Spore Pod, and it shoots a Plasma Cannon. It can charge into terrain, and wipe out what it charges. The primary idea is to plop down enough pods in one turn + the Mawloc, with dangerous Monsters that are tough to kill. The Mawloc is the Suicide Unit. I want my opponent to shoot that the most. Kill it- fine by me. If the Mawloc lands on target, or at least close to target, it has done its job (and possibly made up more than its points in damage!) The best part about the Mawloc is just whole sale removal of models if they can't get 1" away from the Large Blast. That's a Huge Area effect- combined with Pods- could become game changing.

[Tynskel]

Oi! I didn't catch that the Hive Guard can't take the pod... Every unit in the Elites slot has deep strike capability but the Hive Guard- just simply didn't notice that. I am going to have to re-think my Transport busting. The idea was to get side-armor hits. I really don't like Zoans because they are too easy to negate, and are vulnerable to small arms fire. A Hive guard can hide and just fire away! Medusas Scare me- without a sure way to take them out, bugs are in trouble. I might switch to a Tyrannofex with a Rupture cannon. Another option is to upgrade all the other pods to Venom Cannons to add that extra Str 6 shot. The Third option is to Buy a Trygon- won't have the money for that n' a while. Another is to take 8 Ymgarl Stealers.

Going to have to think about that for a Loooonnnng time....

Old Adversary grants Preferred Enemy to all units within 6". How is that worthless? Does everyone in this game just run units by themselves- not as an army? I cannot remember a time where my Hive Tyrant was not next to at least one brood in close combat.
The Hive Commander is for the +1 to reserves. Getting those boys n' girls in faster is better.
Overall, The Tyrant I designed is the 'Shooty' version of the Swarmlord. Bonus to reserves, still causes instant death, fires 3 guns a turn (one psychic, one gun, thorax swarm) instead of 4 Boneswords. Gets to re-roll to hit and wound. Along with units nearby getting re-roll to hit (like the Tyrant Guard).

The Mawloc is a one trick pony suicide unit (and for 170 points- you don't care if it dies). Your army has to be designed with the Mawloc Tactics in mind, which is what I tried to do with the list I have here. If the opponent spreads out to try to negate the Mawloc- then the Mawloc has done its job- I will just focus all the pods on one target. If they try to stay tight together and 'castle' then the Mawloc can really shine. Just box 'em in with the pods. If the opponent decides to 'reserve' their force- I don't have to have units come in on 3+, I could switch to 4+ on turn 2- then turn 3 switch to 2+.

[Ghoulio]

Bah! I meant Indescribable Horror, stupid crappy typing fingers lol. Of course Old Adversary is awesome :)

Here is a suggestion on how to get the most out of your pods.

DONT put Venom Cannons. They are the single worst tank busting gun in the game. Blast with BS 2, -1 to damage charts? Ugh. Twin Linked Death Spitters (for half the cost) on the other hand give you 3, Str 5, Ap5 shots on rear armor and if you can get within 6" of the tank you will get another 6xStr 6 shots (so 9 shots in total). So, land behind a battle tank (or anything that doesnt have troops in them. Bring out your zoans so that the pod is in between them and the tank. Then use your Zoans to bust a Transport/Other tank somewhat far away while you pod gets 9 str5+ shots into the back of the first tank. With one slot you could easily take two tanks out of commision.

As with the Mawloc it is also just personal opinion. Part of the problem is they have made Trygons just so good for their points when you compare them to the other two options. Mawlocs should have either WS 5, or 2xScything Talons, or both. As it stands for what they can do I just dont see any comparison (again, this is just my opinion :) )

[Ghoulio]

Well, you forgot that the Venom Cannon and Ripper Arms on the Spore Pod do exactly the same damage. Rippers are AP-, causing -1 on damage table. Venom Cannon is AP4, but causes -1 on the damage table. Both are Str 6.

All I am saying is that it just gives you multiple chances to glance, thats all. Also its 10 pts cheaper and as you mentioned further down, pods really arent going to do all that much :)


I might just simply stick to the Hive Guard. Those 50 points are going to be interesting. I could just leave it as a pod for a troops squad. Not actually have them deep strike, but just another pod for the Mawloc combo. Funny thing- because it is a Troops Choice (if purchased as a troop pod) it can claim objectives. Which is hilariously annoying to an opponent. Although, I don't think I'll ever see a game be won because of a pod claiming an objective...

Pods actually can't claim objectives as they are mindless or some such thing (ie its in their description). Would be pretty freaking funny though landing one or two of these on objectives, makes your opponents have one more thing to deal with :P

[Tynskel]

Well, you forgot that the Venom Cannon and Ripper Arms on the Spore Pod do exactly the same damage.
Rippers are AP-, causing -1 on damage table. Venom Cannon is AP4, but causes -1 on the damage table. Both are Str 6.

You are right- Twin linked Death Spitters just adds more firepower- but requires Armor 10 to be effective. If you can land against back armor- you are jumping for Joy! But I don't know very many commanders that like to expose back armor. If hitting Armor 10: 18% chance to destroy target. vs 14% with Venom Cannon combo.
Vs Armor 11: 5.5% vs 7.0% (respectively) destroyed- although none of these results factor in Glancing Hits.
Imperial Guard, on the other hand, have lots of side armor 10.
Overall the pods are not a very good anti-transport option. I originally gave them spine clusters just to damage troops. I have had a lot of consistent damage come out of Deathwind Launchers against troops- and this gun is 6" longer in range! (Granted, must shoot closest target...)

I might just simply stick to the Hive Guard. Those 50 points are going to be interesting. I could just leave it as a pod for a troops squad. Not actually have them deep strike, but just another pod for the Mawloc combo. Funny thing- because it is a Troops Choice (if purchased as a troop pod) it can claim objectives. Which is hilariously annoying to an opponent. Although, I don't think I'll ever see a game be won because of a pod claiming an objective...


As for the Trygon/Mawloc argument:
The roles for the Mawloc and Trygon don't really compare. The Mawloc really is a skirmishing unit- fulfills the same role that Gargoyles/Parasite/Harpy units have. They are meant to distract and disrupt your oppenent to 'buy' you time for your main army to approach.
The Trygon is a heavy hitter- designed to brawl and survive. A closer comparison would be the Carnifex/Trygon. Some might say a Trygon is better, or a Carnifex- but the points break down: A Carnifex with a Pod and no upgrades is roughly the same thing as a Trygon. The Trygon is a better value at that point. But for a few points, the Pod/Carnifex combo is really strong. The one Drawback is that the Carnifex is 2 wounds less. However, if your opponent is dedicating firepower to destroy, not injure, the Carnifex/Trygon- they essentially are firing a comparable amount of firepower. A screamer killer is more effective against Marines: Plasma cannon, plus charging- Instant killing just about everything- and has frag grenades. The injured Screamer Killer will be able to pull off a charge and kill lots of Marines before it is killed. It is also has the same effectiveness against tanks: Auto pen every vehicle except for the Land Raider and Monolith. The Screamer killer also can get cover saves from the Spore Pods/ other units. The Trygon will almost never get cover saves.

Essentially, this boils down to personal preference and what is in the rest of the army.

Because my list is using the pods and Mawloc combination, I get more 'bang' if I use the Screamer Killer. If I wasn't using the Mawloc box approach- a Trygon would be more worth while- a lot more. But with the design of the list, the Screamer fills a niche that the Trygon won't exactly be able to fulfill.

[Tynskel]

Reading through all the rules for the Pod: Mycetic Spore Pods can claim

GW will probably ERRATA this.

Immobile rule just says it can't move for any reason (meaning deep striking Mawlocs just eat them!). The Guidance transport rules says nothing about claiming. The Limited Sentience means that they shoot closest target- nothing about claiming there either.

If they are a Troop Choice, which they are when you buy them for troops, they can claim. Vehicles cannot claim-but this isn't a vehicle it is a Monsterous Creature.

Until GW Errata this Unit- a Spore Pod from troops can claim objectives.

[Fizyx]

Reading through all the rules for the Pod: Mycetic Spore Pods can claim

GW will probably ERRATA this.

Immobile rule just says it can't move for any reason (meaning deep striking Mawlocs just eat them!). The Guidance transport rules says nothing about claiming. The Limited Sentience means that they shoot closest target- nothing about claiming there either.

If they are a Troop Choice, which they are when you buy them for troops, they can claim. Vehicles cannot claim-but this isn't a vehicle it is a Monsterous Creature.

Until GW Errata this Unit- a Spore Pod from troops can claim objectives.

They are specifically listed as a separate, non-scoring unit. No errata is necessary.

[Tynskel]

whoops!

that's p.90 in the codex, where as the rules I quoted were p.54.

Makes things simple that way- doesn't it.

[Tynskel]

Alrighty Then.

I Changed up the list a little bit. Got rid of somethings, added somethings. Yes, the Tyrant didn't change- but I am pretty obsessed with the Tyrant- I want it to kill anything with wounds. (Except for Thunder Hammer Terminators... don't like those basterds! Unless they are my Thunderhammer Terminators...)

Some Tricks. The Sky Slashers fly near the Tyrant- attempting to look unimportant. Pounce on whatever the Tyrant pounces on. (Str 4, re-roll to hit due to Tyrant and poisoned attacks! 15 on the charge) Mawloc, Doom, and Carnifex are the disruption units- they deep strike and wreck havoc. With a pretty good likeliness, they will all enter the board at the same time- A perimeter forms around an area with the Pods, Carnifex, and Doom. The Mawloc then appears in the middle in an attempt to smash as much as possible- hopefully, some units are wiped out due to entrapment.
The Stealers and one other troop choice can outflank (due to the Tyrant). This is meant to be flexible. I probably won't have the Tervigon outflank just in an attempt to screen the Tyrant. I can also use the Pyrovore to screen Tyrant (yay for being the size of a monsterous creature!). The Gargoyles+Parasite can either hang back or attempt to move quickly to join up with the front line big bugs. The idea is to have lasted long enough and caused enough carnage for the main battle force to march its way (quickly) across the board.


2000/2000
HQ 560
The Defiler:
Tyrant, Toxin Sacs, Bonesword, Lashwhip,
Twin-linked Devourer, Thorax Swarm Desiccator Larvae (2+ to wound),
Hive Commander, Old Adversary, Psychic Scream, Paroxysm
Defiler Guard:
2 Tyrant Guard, 2 Lash Whips
Parasite of Mortrex

Hv SUPPORT 415
Mawloc
Screamer Killer
Carnifex, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines, Bio-Plasma
Dedicated Transport: Mycetic Spore, Cluster Spines

ELITES 335
Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
Doom!
Doom of Malan'tai
Dedicated Transport: Mycetic Spore, Cluster Spines
Pyrovore

FAST ATTACK 181
Gargoyles
14 Gargoyles, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands
Sky Slasher Swarm
3 Bases, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands

TROOPS 509
Genestealers
8 Genestealers
Hormagaunts
22 Hormagaunts
Termagants
14 Termagants
Tervigon
Tervigon, Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines

[Ghoulio]

I was looking at your list (specifically your Tyrant) and noticed that the guy costs 270pts. I also noticed you said that "I want my Tyrant to be able to kill anything with wounds". I started thinking to myself, why not just dump the lash whips on the Tyrant Guard (or anywhere that you can dump 10pts) and just get a swarm lord. He is better in every way to the tyrant you made and is the ultimate anti-deathstar killer (nob bikers will do anything in their power to avoid this guy lol).

The only other thing I would change is to just remove the Pyrovore because unless you put him in a pod, he is more of a liability then an asset. I mean, if he dies due to a Str 8 or higher shot he blows up on a 4+ at d6" and could cause some wounds to your lower toughness units. I would drop him and add toxin sacs to your hormagaunts (they NEED it...literally not worth putting in a list unless they have toxin sacs). Another thing is that with the 2 Tyrant Guard your Tyrant becomes a unit, so can be screened by regular models (aka gaunts) so you wont need the Pyrovore to screen. In a pinch you could also use your hive guard as a screen. One nice thing about that is NOBODY will assault them with a Swarmlord right behind them lol.

I am interested to see how this list does as there is a bit of everything (which is how I play my army). Sometimes armies like this do really really well (as I have seen with the 4th ed book lol).

[Tynskel]

3 reasons to not switch to swarmlord: Reason #1: I don't have a Swarmlord. Yes, it is on my list of 'things to buy', but right now, I simply cannot afford one. Reason #2: I have a custom built tyrant- tentacle lashwhip arms, Jaw mounted Devourers, barbed looking tail. Giant egg sacs with rippers crawling all over. When I look at what I did when I designed the Tyrant, I found that everything on the body is actually represented in the rules! I was pretty excited, because I was just trying to make a cool model for a long time. Reason #3: The Swarmlord, in close combat, is the undisputed king. Even an Avatar is hard pressed (especially if it has been Paroxysmed). There are some things that my tyrant does better than the Swarmlord. The Preferred Enemy bubble is MUCH better than the Swarmlord's buff. Old Adversary works all the time- and effects multiple units. There is dedicated ranged attack powers- flamer template + 6 str 6 shots + a psychic attack is impressive. All of this can seriously reduce the impact any unit has in damaging the Tyrant in close combat. The Psychic powers for the Swarmlord are flexible- that is pretty nice- but the overall damage potential is much less.

One day, I'll have a Swarmlord- and all before me will be Crushed! :) Until then, I'll have the Defiler Tyrant, and his swarms of rippers will tear everyone apart.

I am looking forward to trying this list out. I need to build my Tervigon (got a lot of ideas for this beasty!) and gargoyles and I am up n' running.

Hormagaunts: I have run both super gaunts and regular gaunts in the past. By themselves, you need the upgrades. However, if they are fighting in conjunction with other units, they do not require the upgrades- the points to buff them are being used in other ways.

The Pyrovore- I am gunna test run him before I take him out (which means I'll use him a lot- and in multiple lists). People say he sucks- for 45 points he sounds pretty good- Hv Flamer, 2 wounds, acid blood and power weapon attack. He's an aid to the army and is a distraction. I don't really care if he blows up- so he might kill gaunts- whatever! I plan on keeping it near the Tyrant for the lash whips- people want to kill him in cc, they will be spayed with acid.

As for screening Monsterous Creatures: Even though the Tyrant joins a 'unit' and cannot be picked out- The Tyrant doesn't lose the Monsterous Creature Status- you wouldn't want to lose this status, or you would lose a lot of killing potential. You still need 50% to gain a cover save on the Tyrant- the rest of the squad benefits from screening, but the Big Bad Bug is still Big! A bug like the Pyrovore will provide screening for the Tyrant. Same with Warriors.

Oh, and I love taking a little bit of everything. Really looking forward to busting out the Flying Rippers again- they just sound too much fun and soo cheap!