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Koppenflak
02-08-2010, 10:25 AM
G'day all.

Long time BoLS reader, but first time poster.

I have a conundrum, and I thought I'd beseech you fine folks for some advice on the matter.

My present list is as follows:

HQ
Company Command
Regimental Advisor - Astropath
Creed
Vox Caster
Medic
Regimental Standard
Carapace Armour

Troops
Platoon Command with 4 Meltaguns
Chimera with Multilaser and Hull Heavy Flamer
Commissar with Laspistol and Power Sword
Squad 1 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer, Vox Caster
Squad 2 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer
Squad 3 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer
Squad 4 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer
Squad 5 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer

Veterans, 3 Meltaguns, Carapace Armour
Vendetta* - See below.

Veterans, 3 Meltaguns, Carapace Armour
Chimera with Multilaser and Hull Heavy Flamer

Fast Attack
Vendetta Gunship, 3 Twinlinked Lascannons

Heavy Support
Leman Russ with Hull Heavy Bolter, Bolter Sponsons
Demolisher with Hull Heavy Bolter, Plasma Sponsons

Total: 1500 points.

At the last local tourney I played, the list did very well, and won three from three games against Eldar, Marines and Chaos. The Eldar and Chaos players were tabled, the Marine player conceded defeat after his terminators and chaplain were furious charged (FtHoC) by the platoon and commissar, and his rear guard ripped up by an outflanking demolisher and vendetta, so the list works. (while it could probably be improved)

It's about to be bolstered to tourney-standard 1750, but I'm facing the prospect of an opponent who throws sanity to the wind and has presently assembled a list with no less than 175 Imperial Guardsmen and 3 Tanks. 150 of those guardsmen form platoons, 10 of them are veterans, and the remaining 15 are from the command squad. The three tanks are two leman russes and a Vanquisher, and all three forgo sponsons for lascannons. The platoons are bolstered by commissars and heavy weapons mixed in with the troops.

I realise this is a newbie question... but does anyone have any suggested tactics and/or list alterations to deal with that kind of army? Because I suspect just through sheer weight of numbers and superior tank killing abilities at range, that army is going to utterly mince me.

Help! :D

Aenir
02-08-2010, 10:33 AM
first, what army do you play?

2nd, Flamers/templates are friends :D

Koppenflak
02-08-2010, 10:40 AM
My list was posted above. Imperial Guard. :)

Description of his list is below mine

EDIT: Ive not yet made the 1750 list, but its fair to say it will be an expansion upon the one above.

Lord Azaghul
02-08-2010, 10:56 AM
First off: I like youre list.
I play a very similar style

Dealing with other guards men: Mortars, Basilsks, Valkerys, (rocket pods), and or a nice hell hound.
And don’t understimate the value of a few outlflaking sentinals

Aldramelech
02-08-2010, 10:58 AM
Goodbye

Mobious
02-08-2010, 11:16 AM
Mech up.

Magos Bellum
02-08-2010, 11:38 AM
Add in a Manticore, up to three large blast templates will blow huge holes in infantry formations and strength 10 ordanance will blast open tanks. Just point in the right direction and you should hit and kill something, and with a huge amount of luck, possibly knock out a third of his army with a single salvo.

bob9801
02-08-2010, 12:25 PM
You could just make a list identical to his, down to the last point, and see the look on his face when he looks accross the table. Or just go with every point being a guardsman.

Seriously now, I would recommend a manticore they are cool. If a manticore is too much or you can't get one soon enough hellhounds are good. A LR punisher is tons of fun to throw around dice though.

The AKH
02-08-2010, 12:37 PM
Outflanking Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers will tear through massed platoons like nobody's business. Even more so if none of them have krak grenades - then you can even charge the platoon after flaming them.

Lerra
02-08-2010, 12:53 PM
The "Blob of Guardsmen" list is popular around here. Usually not with quite that many guardsmen, though . . .

I'm assuming he plays the list like this, but correct me if I'm wrong: he runs 3 large infantry platoons with a commissar and 50 or so guys in each, usually with 4-6 power weapons per squad. Each platoon is Ld10 and stubborn, and he can kill a sergeant to re-roll a failed morale check.

The biggest weakness that the big squads have is that they can't deal with walkers at all. If you can get a sentinel into CC with them, they are out of the game for good because they can't even glance it with S3, and the squad doesn't have access to grenades or power fists unless there is another IC added in, like a priest.

One dirty trick: If he spreads the platoons very far out (in order to hold multiple objectives or block outflanking with one squad, for example) you can assault each end of the blob simultaneously with two different squads, meaning that most of his guys will be strung out between the two squads and unable to consolidate into CC with you. I once charged a 50-man squad with two squads (one on each end of the long string of guardsmen). They were so spread out that 40 of the guardsmen (including all of the power weapons) were unable to get into CC because they had to maintain unit cohesion.

Also, if you run a vindicare assassin, you can snipe the commissar who gives them Ld10 and stubborn, and then the platoon is substantially easier to get rid of.

Ignoring the big squads is a good idea in kill point missions, but in objective missions, make sure to focus on one squad at a time.

I'd also recommend a Leman Russ Punisher over the Medusa for taking on hordes.

Tynskel
02-08-2010, 01:19 PM
In addition to outflanking Scout Sentinels with Hv Flamers- I would spend the rest of the points on Hv Weapons squads with Hv Bolters- that's roughly 6 Hv Bolters and 3 Hv Flamers.

Folkert0
02-08-2010, 02:20 PM
The "Blob of Guardsmen" list is popular around here. Usually not with quite that many guardsmen, though . . .

I'm assuming he plays the list like this, but correct me if I'm wrong: he runs 3 large infantry platoons with a commissar and 50 or so guys in each, usually with 4-6 power weapons per squad. Each platoon is Ld10 and stubborn, and he can kill a sergeant to re-roll a failed morale check.

The biggest weakness that the big squads have is that they can't deal with walkers at all. If you can get a sentinel into CC with them, they are out of the game for good because they can't even glance it with S3, and the squad doesn't have access to grenades or power fists unless there is another IC added in, like a priest.

One dirty trick: If he spreads the platoons very far out (in order to hold multiple objectives or block outflanking with one squad, for example) you can assault each end of the blob simultaneously with two different squads, meaning that most of his guys will be strung out between the two squads and unable to consolidate into CC with you. I once charged a 50-man squad with two squads (one on each end of the long string of guardsmen). They were so spread out that 40 of the guardsmen (including all of the power weapons) were unable to get into CC because they had to maintain unit cohesion.

Also, if you run a vindicare assassin, you can snipe the commissar who gives them Ld10 and stubborn, and then the platoon is substantially easier to get rid of.

Ignoring the big squads is a good idea in kill point missions, but in objective missions, make sure to focus on one squad at a time.

I'd also recommend a Leman Russ Punisher over the Medusa for taking on hordes.

Actually the blob can deal with sentinals every guardsman has frag grenades which are assault grenades, which can be used against vehicles. which is a S 4 hit.. granted it only hits on a 6 and glances at a 6 but hey with 50 models that might work.

plasticaddict
02-08-2010, 02:37 PM
To deal with large amounts of enemy troops: Hellhounds, Valkyries w/rocket pods, Platoon Cmd. Sqd w/four flamers in a transport, Manticore, Psyker Sqd. using Weaken Resolve (stubborn on Ld 2 isn't very handy), Ratlings or ordinance or mortars to cause pinning, Sentinels w/flamers, Vet Sqd w/ flamers and shotguns and a power weapon, Punishers or Battle tanks. There are many options open to cause troops trouble.

ggg
02-08-2010, 03:13 PM
Have you tried Ogryns? I have only used them against marines and would be interested to see how they fared vs. blob squads. It does seem however that walkers would do an even better job though with the added flexibility of flanking heavy weapons that would be useful against any army.

It seems that the obvious choice is to take is indirect fire artillery and mortar heavy weapons. A good roll on a deathstrike would be very funny to see against such an army!

Sounds like you have a nicely maneuverable army though and that may give you quite the edge over such a cumbersome horde.

Aenir
02-08-2010, 05:29 PM
My list was posted above. Imperial Guard. :)

Description of his list is below mine

EDIT: Ive not yet made the 1750 list, but its fair to say it will be an expansion upon the one above.

sorry, thought THAT was his :D
misread :)

Random Guy
02-08-2010, 06:11 PM
Your list looks fine, in fact to me at least the thing you are aparantly lacking in is anti-tank not anti-infantry but still. There are a couple of things I would add to your list though to help.

#1. Marbo- he is the single most under costed unit in the whole of the guard codex. Not only is he completely random so your opponent won't be able to predict his arrival but he packs a lot of a bang when he arrives. As an added bonus your opponent will have to pile a whole squads fire power into him. That may not seem like much but it'll either mean that he's shooting a big squad at you or he's not bothered to combine squads and that makes his army less surviavable.
#2. A deathstrike missile. No I'm not joking. Again it's random which plays havoc with your opponents battle plans. Just hide it in one corner of the board behind a building or something and wait for it to go off. In my experience they do very well as a fire magnet or managing to destroy giant areas of the table. If you want something a little less random then try the manticore for the same points.

That will come to 225 points so spend the extra 25 wherever you see fit. Maybe consider the sponsons on your vendetta, if it's only moving 6 it may as well fire some more shots...

Random Guy

Koppenflak
02-08-2010, 06:43 PM
Wow, such a mass of replies.

Thanks, all. Hugely helpful! I can think of a few other forums I could try this on and I wouldn't get anywhere near as much support.

Short term solution, I'm inclined to take a third tank and probably a pair of scout sentinels, as recommended. That will give me a fairly considerable mass of templates and serious flamer support (when combined with the flamers in the blob and the HHF chimeras, that could be a lot of dead Guard...) I'll need to run some numbers to see if I can afford that though, as I get the impression it might be a bit much for 1750.

Longer term, I'm likely to look at Medusas and Manticores. We'll see what happens with the new Arty kit that comes out in March, but given at this point my only option is forgeworld, I'll probably stick to what I readily have access to.

Funnily enough, I've never had too much trouble dealing with tanks. The meltaguns I've got in the two veteran squads and the drive-by platoon command have always paid for themselves the second anyone's been silly enough to try driving armour down my throat. Against the chaos and marine players in that tourney, Land Raiders didn't last long, and the troops that survived to dismount were pretty quickly mopped up with the combined fire of tank ordnance.

The one and only tank I've ever had trouble dealing with is this guy's Leman Russ Vanquisher which can reach out and touch people... Last time I played him, while I did beat him (this is before he went nuts on troop numbers) his Vanquisher plugged both my tanks and the Vendetta. It was still untouched at the end of the game, because I just couldn't get anything close enough to it to do anything. I used to field Vanks a lot in 4th ed and the old IA list, but the loss of it's template has really made me iffy... I tend not to tailor lists, so the only time I'll tank a Vanquisher is in a one-off where I know I'll be facing armour. As it stands, templates are generally more used to me than a single Range-72 Meltagun.

Lerra:
You pretty much nailed his tactics. He doesn't much care about losses and throws caution to the wind. He knows that 175 vs 80 is going to win through sheer weight of numbers, so he usually just advances and charges anything in his path. To some extent I'm to blame for his "improved" list because the last time I played him, he didn't combine his squads and didn't take commissars... I wiped him out by sheer virtue of the fact that all his men ran off the board.

...then I opened my big mouth, and I've been stuck with this conundrum ever since. :o

rle68
02-08-2010, 09:56 PM
3 vindicators and space wolves end of story :)

Koppenflak
02-08-2010, 10:14 PM
3 vindicators and space wolves end of story :)

Space Wolves were my first army. I don't much want to return to them. :p

I am devoutly Guard!

Defiance
02-08-2010, 10:31 PM
As a fellow Guard player, my advice is a Valkyrie, Manticore, 2 Basilisks and 2 Leman Russ's with plasma cannon sponson's. As that's what I'm using at the moment in 1750:D

Psyker squad does work a treat too, making the squad fall back, then have to come at you again. Or if the blob is below 50% they have to burn an order to get them back in the fight or it'll just run away. Found the Psyker's very handy addition.

That's my 2cents worth.

Regards B

Lerra
02-09-2010, 12:24 AM
As a fellow Guard player, my advice is a Valkyrie, Manticore, 2 Basilisks and 2 Leman Russ's with plasma cannon sponson's. As that's what I'm using at the moment in 1750:D

Psyker squad does work a treat too, making the squad fall back, then have to come at you again. Or if the blob is below 50% they have to burn an order to get them back in the fight or it'll just run away. Found the Psyker's very handy addition.

That's my 2cents worth.

Regards B

I love psyker battle squads, but they don't help much in this situation because each big squad is stubborn and doesn't take penalties to morale checks. You can use the PBS to pin the unit, but with orders they can just back up again.

Defiance
02-09-2010, 02:32 AM
With the Psyker's your Ld is reduced not modified. So they'd be testing on unmodified 2's with a full squad.... Well that's my understanding of it:)
Can anyone else shed light on this?

weeble1000
02-09-2010, 09:13 AM
I agree with most of the advice so far. I run a lot of infantry in my guard army and I hate walkers. It's a blessing that all guardsmen have grenades, but it doesn't amount to much more than a false hope. A few outflanking sentinels will start to ruin his day. If he shoots at them he isn't shooting your scoring units or your armor and if he leaves them alone a single sentinel could tie up an entire infantry unit for the game unless his dice love him.

As others have said, a Hellhound would be another nice choice. Nothing rips through guardsmen quite like a flamer template, and the AP 4 Inferno Cannon will bypass any carapace on the field as well.

I imagine he'll be blobbing his infantry units, but in a game with lots of objectives you might have some trouble if he keeps them in 10 man squads. With 4+ objectives it can be hard to simply kill enough scoring units to keep them off of the objectives. While it isn't the most effective way to play guard, I love running lots of infantry and with 17+ scoring units you can easily have plenty alive and kicking towards the end of the game. But vanilla guard squads don't hold objectives well at all, even if they've got the benefit of the Incoming! order. Any surviving Valkyrie chassis vehicles should be able to clear or contest objectives held by small guard units at the end of the game.

Koppenflak
02-10-2010, 09:43 PM
Right, thanks to you find folk I have my 1750 lists.

I say lists because I don't yet own a Hellhound (7 years playing guard and I don't own a Hellhound - go figure!) so one is an interim list while I get the doe together to actually buy one. It saddens me that they now cost as much as a Demolisher for a watered down kit without an accessory frame... but needs must.

Interim list:

HQ
Company Command
Astropath
Ursurkar Creed
Vox Caster
Medic
Regimental Standard
Carapace Armour

Troops
Platoon Command with 4 Meltaguns
Chimera with Multilaser and Hull Heavy Flamer
Commissar with Bolt Pistol and Power Sword
Squad 1 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer, Vox Caster
Squad 2 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer
Squad 3 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer
Squad 4 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer
Squad 5 10 Guardsmen, 1 Flamer

Veterans, 3 Meltaguns, Carapace Armour
Outflank Transport Vendetta* See below
Veterans, 3 Meltaguns, Carapace Armour
Chimera with Multilaser and Hull Heavy Flamer

Fast Attack
Vendetta Vendetta Gunship, 3 Twinlinked Lascannons
1 Scout Sentinel with Heavy Flamer
1 Scout Sentinel with Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
Leman Russ with Hull Heavy Bolter, Bolter Sponsons
Demolisher with Hull Heavy Bolter, Plasma Sponsons
Leman Russ with Hull Heavy Bolter, Bolter Sponsons

1750 on the mark.

List two, when I get the Hellhound, will change out a Leman Russ for the Hellhound, and the Scout Sentinels will become armoured. Watching his infantry fail horribly in close combat, unable to penetrate it's armour will be a thing of beauty while it lasts (I'm sure he'll sink the points in to a counter in future, but hey, anything goes for now)

I should probably stress that this isn't supposed to be a tailored list, per se. I know the opponents and the armies in the area, so it's something of an all-comers list, but the horde is the one army I suspect will be trouble. So this is the solution. Later down the track again, a Manticore is looking mighty tempting...