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Just_Me
02-11-2010, 03:59 PM
This is sort of a general area of inquiry as I am (slowly) updating and reinforcing my bugs with the new codex, and I am coming across questions and thoughts as is go. Let me first say, I have no intention of launching another variation of the Doom of Malaln'tai question, I'm not looking for rules clarification or trying to poke holes in balance. I just want input on my "equipment" thoughts, I am generally not inclined to doing a in-depth cost-benefit analysis of my army as I rarely play, and generally I'm in the hobby for fluff and collecting, so I need some help in this department.

The first question I have to ask is what to give Raveners? My instinct is Spine Fists, 4 attacks means 4 shots with re-rolls. The strength is a bit weedy, but I would be all but assured to get a hit or two. Deathspitters on the other hand have a nice respectable strength and the now models make them look darn cool, but at BS 3 I just can't imagine I will get enough hits (I'm running them in the Warrior squad, but I intend to have them accompanied by a Prime for BS 4). Devourers seem to be the poorest choice, sure the leadership effect is cool, but it doesn't seem to be very likely to happen...

My second question is about the Tyrannofex, while I neither have one, nor do I plan to make one any time soon, I think they are pretty damn cool. I'm really drawn to the Rupture Cannon, talk about heavy fire-support, but I know from painful Guard Autocannon experience that 2 shots at BS 3 just will not cut it, if it were a blast weapon i would not even think twice, but as it is... The Acid Spray is an obvious choice but doesn't really "wow" me, and the Fleshborer Hive could be pretty horrific if you rolled well, though it seems really short ranged (on the other hand the Tyrannofex has a surprising amount of close-in firepower for a support organism).

Anyway, all thoughts welcome, and I'm sure I will have further questions for this thread as I come to them in my army building.

Tynskel
02-11-2010, 05:05 PM
I like all the guns for Raveners- they all have their positives and negatives. Personally, I like the Deathspitter the most- 3 shots, str5!

However, if you want a gun and are trying to keep costs down- or in your case, you already have BS4 Deathspitters, Then you should choose between devourers and spinefists. You seem to have solved this questions with your clear dislike of devourers! Spinefists it is.

In the metagame sphere: Spinefist 4*(1/2+ 1/2*1/2)*1/3*1/3=0.33 wounds against marines. 0.25 devourer wounds against marines. 0.33 Deathspitter wounds on Marines. If you are trying to cut costs and are fighting marines: Spinefists. If you are fighting weaker than marines: Spinefists. If you are fighting tougher than marines: Deathspitters. Devourers are just in the middle, not as good, though. This is for Raveners- the 4 twin-linked shots makes a difference.

The Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon- This, once again is a preference thing. I thought about taking one, but then I just plain simply like the Acid Spray. I would prefer to have the Tyrannofex to run every turn then get close to start shooting, rather than walk n' shoot. Otherwise you have to rely on Onslaught to keep the Tyrannofex movin'.

Metagame: Rupture cannon vs Armor 14: 2*1/2*1/3*1/3=11% chance to destroy. That's all fun n' dandy, until you compare the Zoans: 3 zoans: 3*2/3*2/3*1/2=66% chance to destroy. If you are not taking zoans, then the back up firepower can help. However, if you have backup deep striking Monsterous Creatures (carns, mawlocs, trygons) you are pretty set at popping the heaviest of armor. Essentially, the Rupture cannon is a backup gun. It cannot replace your mainstay anti-tank/transport weapons (Hive Guard, Zoans). If you don't take Hive Guard, nor Zoans, then Yes, you should take the Rupture Cannon. Otherwise, it is a preference: Do you want the Tyrranofex to run up and just get in close, or do you want it to lumber and fire every turn?

Monsterous Creatures do most of their dirty work up close.

AbusePuppy
02-12-2010, 03:03 AM
Raveners, as a rule, shouldn't have guns. You should be spending your movement phases Running, not shooting. If you want a good unit that mixes assault and shooting, take Tyranid Warriors. Of the three choices, however, I believe Spinefists work out to be the best- Deathspitters are a bit overpriced, Devourers are decent but no better than on other units. Four BS3 TL shots is not horrible, even with crappy strength. You average one wound to a T4 target, whereas Devourers are .75 wounds and Deathspitters are also only average one.

Tyrannofexes should only be built with the Rupture Cannon. It makes them into a long-range fire support platform that basically can't be killed, ideally freeing up some Elites slots for other things. The Acid is okay, but not being on a fast platform (like the Hellhound) and in a codex with a preponderance of other anti-infantry options makes it subpar. Also: the ridiculous price for one gun. Fleshborer Hive is terrible. If it had 24" range... maybe. But 12" and no Mycetic Spore option makes it just worthless. Rupture Cannon will be active every turn of the game, comes on a nasty MC body, has anti-infantry support (Cluster Spines, Dessicator Larvae, which are the best choices most of the time) for emergencies and gives us a S10 attack that doesn't care about Librarians. And, while it's true BS3 isn't the most impressive thing in the world, Nobs and Thunderwolves will curse your name forever when the hits do get through.

Tynskel
02-12-2010, 02:24 PM
Eh- your 'rule' is superficial when it comes to raverners with guns. Depends on army design. A 5 point upgrade for the turn you come out of the ground via deep strike can make the guns effective. 3 Raveners with Spinefist (15 points) fighting Marines: 12(shots)*0.75(Twin-linked BS3)*1/3(to wound)*1/3(failed save)= ~1 Dead Marine. You made your points back.

Tyrannofexes ONLY being built with Rupture Cannon doesn't make sense either- the Acid Spray is a very effective weapon, and same with the Fleshborer Hive. Once again, this comes down to army design, and who you are fighting. The Rupture Cannon is a back up anti-tank weapon. You could use it against Thunderwolves/Nob Bikers- but I doubt your opponent will be crying. The most you can kill in one turn is two guys. A smart Nob Bikers player will have a cover save, the thunderwolves get their armor save. 2(shots)*1/2(BS 3)*5/6(to wound)*1/3(failed Save)=27% chance to kill a thunder wolf. 41% to kill a Nob. Acid Spray will hit probably 7-8 guys (due to the flexible placement) 7*2/3(to wound)*1/3=1.5 wounds thunder cavalry (against nobs, thats 2 dead Nobs due to ignoring cover and armor). Throw in the other guns due to being close enough to fire them...

Overall this just comes down to army design. Nothing in the Tyranid Codex is the 'uber' unit- you have to use combinations to make them effective. A Tyrannofex running with the army can be just as effective as a Tyrannofex firing the Rupture cannon. Also, the Tyrannofex can be really scary with Onslaught.

AbusePuppy
02-12-2010, 09:48 PM
Eh- your 'rule' is superficial when it comes to raverners with guns. Depends on army design. A 5 point upgrade for the turn you come out of the ground via deep strike can make the guns effective. 3 Raveners with Spinefist (15 points) fighting Marines: 12(shots)*0.75(Twin-linked BS3)*1/3(to wound)*1/3(failed save)= ~1 Dead Marine. You made your points back.

"Making your points back" is and always has been a fallacy. Spinefists are of marginal utility against Guard or Tau, but against most others you're simply going to kill a random trooper before you charge in. It isn't the random marines that make a squad dangerous, it's the guys with special/heavy weapons. Getting rid of their ablative wounds is not worth spending points on if you're about to charge into HtH anyways.


Tyrannofexes ONLY being built with Rupture Cannon doesn't make sense either- the Acid Spray is a very effective weapon, and same with the Fleshborer Hive. Once again, this comes down to army design, and who you are fighting. The Rupture Cannon is a back up anti-tank weapon. You could use it against Thunderwolves/Nob Bikers- but I doubt your opponent will be crying. The most you can kill in one turn is two guys. A smart Nob Bikers player will have a cover save, the thunderwolves get their armor save. 2(shots)*1/2(BS 3)*5/6(to wound)*1/3(failed Save)=27% chance to kill a thunder wolf. 41% to kill a Nob. Acid Spray will hit probably 7-8 guys (due to the flexible placement) 7*2/3(to wound)*1/3=1.5 wounds thunder cavalry (against nobs, thats 2 dead Nobs due to ignoring cover and armor). Throw in the other guns due to being close enough to fire them...

No, the Rupture Cannon isn't ideal against Thunderwolves, but I was largely throwing that out as an example. It causes ID on virtually everyone, and against Nobz they're pretty much always going to get some kind of save anyways, so...

Fleshborer Hive is just awful because its range and the lack of any kind of mobility on the Tyrannofex. How often do you see IG running Punishers? Well guess what, those have twice the range of our crappy gun. The fact that it syncs well with the other two weapons you'll have is nice, but it's simply not worth it compared to the other choices, especially since you have to pay for the privilege of taking it.

Acid Cyst is a perfectly fine weapon- although I would really have preferred something that could kill Marines, as AP4 is not a terribly useful number. However, it works well with the other guns and is pretty much our only effective flamer template- and gosh darn it, I like the dang thing. The problem is the fact that it's mounted on a tremendously expensive body- more than twice the price of a Hellhound. 250pts is more than I want to play for a Heavy Flamer, even a fancy one. Combine that with the aforementioned poor maneuverability of the 'Fex and you have a very substandard platform in my opinion. We have plenty of anti-infantry weapons, as I said. We don't care that much about cover, because 90% of the time our AP won't pierce anything anyways. But the codex has very limited options for dealing with vehicles, and most of them are concentrated in a single force org. Being able to move some of our strong AT firepower elsewhere is a big deal, and overall why I consider non-Rupture Tyrannofexes to be a waste. I will eventually run a couple Acid ones as a gimmick, but I don't ever expect them to be good.

Ghoulio
02-13-2010, 12:05 AM
I have to agree with AbusePuppy, I think giving Raveners guns is a complete waste of points. Even the turn you deep strike (if you do that with them) would be better spent running as you can spread out your squad, get to cover etc. If you dont you are just asking to be blast templated into oblivion. Just do rending claws, scything talons and keep them cheap and they will do great.

As far as the Tyrannofex is concerned I am not impressed with the Rupture Cannon. It's just a 4th ed Venom Cannon that can pen but costs virtually double the cost to fit it into the game. If you could take it on a Carnifex...or...just called it a VENOM CANNON, then it would see tonnes of use :) If I were to make a Tyrannofex I would just leave the Acid Spray on it and run it with a Tervigon with Onslaught. Having one of these running then shooting a Str 5 Large blast template and a Hell Hound style flamer is fairly decent. The Flesh Borer Hive greatly irks me just because it is one of the most ill conceived guns in any codex. With only a BS of 3 and a range of 12" and the fact the Tyrannofex CANT take a Spore pod makes it so incredibly stupid. With TWENTY shots you will kill 2 marines. Go team. You just need 9 full rounds of firing to make your points back :P With all that being said I would never take a Tyrannofex as there is no way to make them useful in comparison to what you could get for their cost. This of course is just my play style, and everyone is different and I know some people really like these guys...I just happen to not be one of them lol.

Just_Me
02-13-2010, 04:34 PM
Aside from saving points, I don't see why not to give Raveners guns actually; they're beasts and their guns are all at or around 12" range assault weapons, so they are perfectly designed to shoot then assault, and they aren't fleet so it's not like you lose anything by running them until they get into assault range, it just adds a little bit more hurt potential to their assault. If you Deep Strike with them then you can potentially get some use out of them the turn they enter play. I'm willing to pay a bit more to add to the pain-bringing potential of my troops, and none of their options are prohibitively expensive, and there are so many ultra cheep 'nid options out there that you can afford to splurge on some of the bigger things. I decided to go with Deathspitters in the end, because a) they look the coolest, and b) I like the relatively high strength they have. They are a bit more expensive, and not as reliable as Spine Fists, but I'm more interested in getting the biggest bang for my buck out of Raveners than long term reliability, I can't imagine they will stick around that long anyway; if the Deathspitters get a crazy number of hits, then all the better, plenty of hurt at S5, if they all miss, then so what? I'm going to charge next turn anyway and likely die within a few turns of that.

Next question, Trygon Prime? ye or nay? I get a better gun, and Synapse and Shadow, but I feel like the idea here is to pop up in the enemy backfield (with some Raveners in tow) and just wreak as much havoc as possible. For that purpose there won't be many other bugs around to spread Synapse to, and failing a Instinctive Behavior test isn't such a bad thing as Feed already has them doing what I probably want them to. If the enemy relies on a lot of psykers then Shadow on a tough platform in their rear could be nasty, but that's a big "if." Plus, the giant mandibles for the Prime look less cool to me than the standard Trygon ones.

mercer
02-15-2010, 07:45 AM
I wouldn't take any weapons at all on ravenors as you cannot fleet then, you want these boys in assault a.s.a.p and they can move damn quick! I would give them rending claws and take six of them and use terrain to get where I want and keeping in cover ;)

Just_Me
02-15-2010, 08:58 AM
Well darn, I had totally forgotten that Beasts automatically have fleet (how often do you even see beasts anyway?), and I only noticed that Raveners don't have the fleet special rule. Without fleet ranged weapon symbiotes are an obvious choice (and their weapon ranges and Beast assault range mesh quite well), but with fleet I'm inclined not to give them ranged symbiotes at all, close combat is where they are gonna do real damage. I guess I will have to tear apart 3 perfectly good models now...

Any thoughts on the Trygon question above?

mathhammer
02-15-2010, 12:04 PM
A trygon prime is a great model. Deploy it on your front line and move it forward. The tunnel it creates is not as great as one may think.

Tynskel
02-15-2010, 01:50 PM
Killing ablative wounds not a good idea? Whatever. That's not a very good reason to avoid getting the guns. A better reason would be that the points could be more effectively used to upgrade a Tervigon with catalyst, or acid blood on a Tyrant, ect. ect.

It is understandable not to take the weapons- you are faster without them. However, there are instances where the guns are nice. When you deep strike- you aren't charging then. When you are less than 12" away and are assured the charge, a gun is a nice option to have.

Of course these situations do not always occur. If you are planning on having your Raveners farther away than 18", you are putting a lot of risk on not being able to reach your enemy, anyhow. This really comes down to what is in the rest of the army. If you have your firepower in warriors, termagants, and gargoyles, ect, you probably do not need the upgrade.

Don't forget about interesting combos: Like a Tervigon with Onslaught. You can have Raverners move, shoot, run, and then charge- that's pretty cool.

Just_Me
02-15-2010, 03:11 PM
All good points Tynskel, but I'm inclined to view Raveners as expendable, true they are multi-wound models, but their toughness is only "good" and their saves are crappy. If the guns were giving me more bang for my buck and were guaranteed use without any loss of function, then I'm more than willing to spend the points. However, the one and only task for Raveners is getting into CC as fast as possible, and for that I'm better off with a fast cheap platform (plus, from a purely aesthetic perspective, much as I do like Deathspitters, I like them even better without guns). Being assured that I can always run without fear of losing a charge gives me more options for those charges, true I lose the shooting option when it does appear, and they will be doomed to sit around uselessly on the first turn if I deep strike, but their BS isn't good enough to make shooting a reliable tactic anyway, and I do save points. Plus I need have no worries about just letting their Instinctive Behavior dictate their actions, freeing up Synapse coverage for things that I really need pinpoint control over.

Tynskel
02-15-2010, 03:43 PM
All good points Tynskel, but I'm inclined to view Raveners as expendable....

Hahah!

I consider all Tyranids expendable. ;)

You have another billion or so to replace the ones on the battlefield!

Just_Me
02-15-2010, 04:42 PM
Hahah!

I consider all Tyranids expendable. ;)

You have another billion or so to replace the ones on the battlefield!

So very true :D

That's why I started 'nids in the first place. As I said at the beginning, I play mainly for love of the fluff, so I tend to have a real affection for my troops, and don't like to expend them. With the Tyranids, the fluff basically REQUIRES that I burn through them in droves without compunction, It's a refreshing change of priorities. Plus I love the sheer "alienness" of them.

Xas
02-16-2010, 04:59 AM
one important thing noone seams to mention is the t-fex' range with the cannon.

it is the only nid that can realistically engage tanks in a ranged firefight.

both zoans and hiveguard cannot engage tanks which do not want to be engaged (zoans in pods get one try around turn 2-4 which they will not survive due to beeing basically 6 marines vs small arms fire) because of range.

the t-fex can practically engage every direct fireing tank in the game. only two guns which have a realistic chance of harming it have greater range then him and both are expensive single shot weapons (vanquisher and railgun). a pair of them, one to each flank of your army means you can hit any point on the table with at least two shots and four for the central area (if you make your oponent go to the middle by useing outflankers).


in a 1v1 duell the t-fex will have the upper hand against every single tank in the game due to his nature of beeing a 6w 2+sv regenerating monstrous creature. not beeing shaken is a hughe up for him. imagine one of the most deadly modells in the game: the imperial guard vendetta. it practically has no hope of surviving if it strays within 56" of the t-fex. even if it causes 3 wounds with it's 3 lascanons the t-fex will laugh and usually either kill or stun/shake it. beeing shaken means the tfex gets a free 2nd try.

additionally it is the only thing that can stop a transport turn1. this can be a big boost if you want to take some dangerous units out of the game for a few turns as they have to footslog it (mostly orc meganobs or eldar aspects/wrathguards).


even without the spray or noobborer gun the tfex has a good anti-personell arsenal with a s5 large template and a flamer of your choice (poison 2+, heavy flamer or rending flamer).

mercer
02-16-2010, 05:48 AM
Well darn, I had totally forgotten that Beasts automatically have fleet (how often do you even see beasts anyway?), and I only noticed that Raveners don't have the fleet special rule. Without fleet ranged weapon symbiotes are an obvious choice (and their weapon ranges and Beast assault range mesh quite well), but with fleet I'm inclined not to give them ranged symbiotes at all, close combat is where they are gonna do real damage. I guess I will have to tear apart 3 perfectly good models now...

Any thoughts on the Trygon question above?

Yup beasts get fleet, something often forgot about.

Trygon Prime, nar not really. Its 40 points extra and you get a synapse creature and more shots with your gun with longer range. Though I guess it depends how you use your Trygons.

I always deep strike mine and have zoanthropes podding in so they're always in synapse range. If they fail its no bigger because they will assault something anyway, which is what these guys do. As for shooting they're meh at it. I've wrecked some armour though. But the Trygon has fleet and you want this baby in assault a.s.a.p so you don't want to be shooting, really. The Trygon could have a potential 18" assault range. I use a normal Trygon and the amount of shots it gets is enough to weaken a unit and wreck vehicles. I think the extra 40 points could be used better else where, for example adrenal glands which gives this sucker S7 on the charge! :D

You want any more tyranid advice just PM me or e-mail me below :) Though I will try and keep tabs on this thread.

BS FADE
02-19-2010, 08:09 PM
I am just annoyed that raveners have acute senses but weren't given any guns that warrant it. I was really hoping for something good on them when I saw the kits, like how they have this chest hole that could easily hold some kind of flamer weapon.

I just hope it wasn't a factor that effected their point cost.