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Heimagiblin
02-12-2010, 01:01 PM
Farseer,guide,doom,runes of warding, spirit stones=135
10 dire avengers,exarch with blade storm=147
10 dire avengers,exarch with blade storm=147
10 dire avengers,exarch with blade storm=147
10 dire avengers,exarch with blade storm=147
10 dire avengers,exarch with blade storm=147
3 warwalkers, 2 brightlances each, spirit stones=295(6 str 8 ap2 lance shots)
3 warwalkers, 2 scatter lasers each=180 (24 str 6 shots)
3 warwalkers,2 star cannons each=240 (12 str 6 ap2 shots)
7 fire dragons=112
wave serpent,twin linked shrunkien cannons=100
7 fire dragons=112
wave serpent,twin linked shrunkien cannons=100

Any suggestions/ improvements?

edit:

The idea is to form a firing line with the dire avengers so if one squad is assaulted at least 3 will be able to move and deal with the threat. The warwalkers turn out an awful lot of str6 shots and str8 lances to pop transports. The warwalkers needed to do the job the most will be guided. The fire dragons are there to provide 2 reliably dead tanks turn 2 and with this many threats on the table have a descent chance of 1 or 2 surviving to bring their melta's to bear a second time. The wave serpent try to survive then make a nusiance of themselves contesting objectives and the dire avengers combined with 6 star cannons ensure infantry die in droves(which they will with 150 shots second turn possibly re-rolling to hit/wound. As for anti tank I think its pretty solid because any spamming of transports means the scatter lasers can usally pen on a 6 meaning 1 transport is dead turn 1.Then the 6 brightlances bring another one down and later on the fire dragons get stuck in. It is true that warwalkers are onyl av10 but don't forget the bl ones have spirit stones and 1,2,3,4, on the glancing table only puts 1 out of action for 1 turn and 1,2, on the pen table do the same,and 3 halfs the effectivness of 1 of them.Its sort of a semi-invunerable save.

Also don't forget the warwalkers range is 36 inches so the enemy will have to come forward unless the army is exceptionally adept at long range firepower in whcih case the dire avengers move forward and run first 1st turn then move and open up 2nd turn.

Sir Biscuit
02-12-2010, 01:15 PM
Your dire avengers... are on foot?

Also, your anti-tank is transparent and not especially hard. Two wave serpents of fire dragons and three warwalkers with bright lances is not exactly threatening. What happens when you come up against mech guard, or really any army that's tank-heavy. Not to mention that to be effective, your fire dragons have to rush forward, all but unsupported, to kill any heavy armor.

It's probably not terrible if your opponent is coming to you, you have bountiful area terrain to deploy in, and they don't field much tanks. That's a lot of "ifs". I'm hardly an eldar player, so I can't give great advice to fix this, (though I've played a lot of eldar and know what's scary) but I feel you may be setting yourself up for a beating.

Also, you should include tactical plans with your list. Like I said, I'm hardly an eldar player, so maybe you have some trick I'm not aware of, but it seems to me this army only works if the opponent plays just like you want them to.

Tynskel
02-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Maybe just me, but I don't think Eldar are effective when they spam the same unit over n' over. If you are going on foot, I am sure you could swap out some dire avengers (not all) for guardians and squeeze out an Avatar. Then you'll be at least Fearless, and not running or being pinned when the enemy starts to shoot you a bunch.

Either that, or take a second Farseer. Having guide/Doom cast on multiple targets could be useful. Guided Bright Lance War Walkers 50/50 almost anything Armor 12 and higher.

The list just seems like it would be too easy to deal with. The War Walkers are easy to kill/disrupt (Covering 50% of the hull is difficult to do!), the Fire Dragons can be baited, and massive groups of Dire Avengers can be destroyed from afar.

Eldar excel at confusing their opponents, and most of that is done with a varied selection of units. They become difficult to wield with the various units, but a player that knows what each unit is capable of in conjunction with other units is a difficult opponent to face off against.

Heimagiblin
02-12-2010, 05:38 PM
Yea I thought about swapping 10 dire evengers for a farseer,set up similarly to the first. However, I think swapping a dire avengers squad for a avatar is not a good idea because fearless is awful in the new rules and i'm not going to kid myself that an avatar will stand up to the best combat units being chucked around by the other armies. I would much rather they obliterated a dire avenger squad and were then left out in the open too die.I'll see what other say about the farseer though.

Oh and also can everyone stop saying that 50 dire avengers are going to drop dead as soon as anyone pays any attention to them. Eldar are fragile but not that fragile!I think people are used to killing any eldar that pokes his head out of a wave serpent but once you get enough they can start to win wars of attrition because of their massive damage output. They just have to focus fire efficently enoguh and cordinate ther'e firepower to allow for minimum return fire.For example, fire dragons pop land raider, farseer guides warwalkers with star cannons, killing 5 terminators on average, 2-3 if they have storm shields.

Sir Biscuit
02-12-2010, 07:30 PM
Dire avengers are T3 with a 4+ save. That IS FRAGILE. That is almost as fragile as you can get in 40k! Those squads will drop dead as soon as something pays attention to them, and something will, because you have nothing to distract from them in your army. If you're using fragile units to accomplish dangerous things, then bring along stuff that the enemy will want to shoot first!

As for the Avatar, two things:
1.) Know what's worse than taking no retreat wounds? Getting sweeping advanced. Fearless is NOT a debuff by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, no retreat wounds suck... but being immune to moral and always avoiding the big SA is definitely worth it.
2.) You have no assault units in the army. None. You are almost entirely on foot, so you have very little mobility. Do you really think that you will be able to kill the enemy before they get to you?

You do realize that a full squad of Dire avengers, on average, fails to kill even ONE marine in assault? And that with all squads bladestorming you'll kill, on average, 16 marines. That's not even two full squads, and you can bet you'll get assaulted next turn. What happens then? You can't expect to just roll over units until the marines finally go down to some lucky hits.

The problem with your list is that you have essential used Eldar to make a Tau list. You are all shooting and no assault. To drive the example home, Tau can field the following list:

HQ
Shas'o
+Twin-linked fusion blaster
+Plasma Rifle
Bodyguard
2 Crisis Suits
+Twin-linked fusion blaster
+Plasma Rifle
Troops
Fire Warrior Team (12 man)
+Shas'ui
+Markerlight
Fire Warrior Team (12 man)
+Shas'ui
+Markerlight
Fire Warrior Team (12 man)
+Shas'ui
+Markerlight
Fire Warrior Team (12 man)
+Shas'ui
+Markerlight
Fire Warrior Team (12 man)
+Shas'ui
+Markerlight
Fast Attack
Piranha Team (2 Vehicles)
+Fusion Blasters
Piranha Team (2 Vehicles)
+Fusion Blasters
Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship
+Railgun
Hammerhead Gunship
+Railgun
Hammerhead Gunship
+Railgun

What's special about this list? It's yours done Tau. It has fire warriors (better shooting) in place of dire avengers, Battlesuits in place of Farseer (the only place where this list is weaker), Piranhas in place of Fire Dragons, (Which can deep strike, and are quite good at blocking assaults), and, to top it off, Hammerhead Gunships with railguns in place of War Walkers.

The icing on the cake? This list isn't 2K. It's not even 1750. It comes to a cool 1639. That leaves 361 points to play around with, in a list that is yours but doing it better.

My point here is that you are playing your army wrong. I understand I sound harsh, but it's the truth, and the truth hurts. You either need to start figuring out how to use Eldar's famed mobility (jetbikes, vypers, wave serpents, etc.) and unit specialization, and get soem decent assault units, or realize that you love to play shooty gunline armies and start playing Tau or Imperial Guard. If you do choose to stick with Eldar, this here blog is a nice resource:
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/

Best of luck at the tourney.

Mobious
02-12-2010, 07:38 PM
MECH UP!!

Seriously, only a few foot armies work in fifth edition and Eldar are not one of them. Ditch at least two of those Avenger squads and reduce the points you are spending on the rest. Then buy Falcons (Pulse/Scat/Shur) or Serpants(TL Lance/Shur) to give you mobility and survivability.

Warwalkers are too fragile to be wielding those very expensive Brightlances. Ditch those lances in favor of Scatter Lasers and leave the heavy armor destroying for your Dragons and Lances on your Serpants. Oh and I don't think the Star cannons are worth it, half the shots of a scatter laser and almost twice as expensive. There are too many cover saves available for that to be worthwhile. Just stick with the volume of fire that scatter lasers afford you.

The Dragons should be cut down to 5, you really do not need seven to take down a Vehicle.

But really, foot Eldar does not work. You will just get ripped to shreds whenever you have to move out of cover. And you are not taking full advantage of what makes Eldar great, Speed and lots of S:6.

Just my take

davel
02-13-2010, 02:29 AM
you serpents need spirit stones it is essential that they get to where they are going.
dire advengers on foot either get avoided or blasted from afar. With out cc powers your also vunerable to fast assult.
maximum units could work in seize ground. but they are a liability in the other 2 missions.
jet bikes are better at grabing objectives where it will be obvious as to where your dire advengers are going. rangers and guardians are better at hanging back though neither is good at holding objectives. the guardians with a warlock could be backed up by a wraith lord. Kit it out with long range anti tank may be a better investment than anti tank low bs warwalker.
if your planning to out flank with war walkers it may be a good idea to swap to eldar miss launch. Cheaper more flexable and should not need the lance to pen side armour
So far eldar have no ability to reduce enemy ld other than cc so you will find it difficult to shift opponents on objectives.

Dave l

Tynskel
02-13-2010, 02:48 AM
I don't think you need to 'mech up'. That's a style thing. However, I do agree that you are receiving diminishing returns the more Dire Avengers you have.

Personally, If I were to Spam a unit, I would choose warp spiders. Fast, decent assault + hit n' run, and crazy good 2 shot str 6 gun, and 3+ armor.

Overall, if you squeezed a scorpion squad or something else, you'll find the performance of your army greatly increased.

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 03:29 AM
What about if I swap a dire avenger squad for a banshee squad ,then swap another dire avenger squad for another wave serpent.

About the anti-tank, as I said the fire dragons are 7 because with that many you have a chance of being able to reload them and do it again. I messed around with their unit size squite alot and believe me 7 is enough to make them expendable and enough to give them a good chance to survive till next turn.The warwalkers are imo the best units in the codex and the bright lances are only 30 pts and will usually be guided.
Anyway, Is that any better.

ps. Hammerheads are completly trumped by warwalkers. I take your point though.

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 03:51 AM
Sorry, double post.

Mobious
02-13-2010, 10:40 AM
Don't mech up? Not to be rude or anything but are you f*cking kidding me? Lmao Have you been playing this game recently? If so have you had success? This list needs a substantial dose of 5th edition retuning. I can tell you right now that Nearly every mech list just runs through this. MY BA for example. Baals preds are in their glory when Eldar are on foot, you do realize you'll have to leave your terrain pieces eventually right? Then what? Heavy Bolters just own you. You know what fine, stay in your cover and then my Speeders will finally use their Heavy Flamers.

You do not have enough to stop a REAL mech force. The walkers drop like every other squadroned AV 10 vehicle, and then its really just a cat and mouse game with the Serpant. I'll let you get out and fry a tank/squad, and then those to KPs are now mine and all your anti-tank is gone. Whats to stop me from just staying in my tanks and running you off the board.

Lemartes (DC)
3 x Tactical Rhinos
3 x Land Speeders
3 x Baal Predators
3 x Furiosos

You cannot kill all of that before it runs you off the board; and it will run you off of the board. Your best chance is to kill the Rhinos and troops so I cannot score. But then you leave my killy units to play with their food. What's to stop the DC from sitting behind a wall of tanks until they can launch out and decimate your Avengers? What stops the Dreads? What stops the Baals? Whats to stop the Speeders? You can't get guide on everything. If you cannot see that MECH IS GREAT then I am sorry. The only armies that can pull off no mobility for their troops are Wolves/Orks and maybe one other I am missing--new BA?

Please disagree . . .

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 11:43 AM
Wooh. Easy tiger. 1st turn the scatter lasers make a mess of a rhino and the squad inside is wiped out by star cannons, the bright lances pop a predator. Presuming I lose a bright lance warwalker and a dire avenger squad to shooting from 2 preds+landspeeders, the fire dragons then fry another predator and a dreadnought, another tactical squad is killed from bright lance can opening then star cannon/avenger shooting.Lets say the wave serpent carrying the bansheesis shot down(despite the 4+cover save and the banshee's are killed and a star cannon warwalker dies+4 dire avengers to a heavy flamer.. The fire dragons move and kill another dreadnought despite being reduced to 2-4 guys. Dire avenger squad that has been shot at by the disembarked marines is reduced to 6.Land speeders finish off this squad. Another dreadnought is immobilized by the 4 bright lances(2hits, guide so 3, 1 pen+glance=on average something bad happens.Dire avengers move away from marine squad and bladestorm.Marines down to 6 men. Landspeeders stunned by shooting from remaining dire avengers.SCatter lasers bring down another landspeeder and bright lances stun a predator.

I now have
2bright lance warwalkers
2 scatter laser war walkers
I squad of 4 fire dragons
2wave serpents
30 ish dire avengers
1 star cannon warwalker

You now have rhino
1stunned pred
a damaged dreadnought
6 marines
2 stunned land speeders(Dire aveners on average case 2-3 glancing hits)

That was quite dull and I may have forgotten something/done a maths estimate fail but I don't think It would be a walkover.Oh and I love the way that your dc can come from behind your tanks and I quote "decimate your avengers" when there are 50 (or a least 30 after shooting from the preds before they meet a sticky end at the hot end of 7 melta-guns whcih your list can't stop without sacrificing predator shooting)

Mobious
02-13-2010, 12:42 PM
Lol Well I rather not theory hammer this out with you, which by the way you did a terrible job of. But I do like how you think every time you shoot you wipe out whatever you target. Lol I didn't flip on you, I was really addressing Tynskelwho believes you do not have to Mech up if you want a real competitive list with Eldar. But lets run through the numbers you mashed up:

6 Lances vs. AV-13 = 17% to destroy (with cover save from the Dreadnought wall)
So every other turn you have a 1/3 chance to kill me. One of every six turns I am down.
24 Scatter Lasers vs. AV 11 = 33% chance to destroy (cover from Baals . . . maybe even 3+)
So every 3 turns you kill one Rhino with cover; not a mess of a Rhino to me.
12 Star cannons vs. Marines = 2.5 Dead Marines (did you forget that I get saves from rhino craters?)
Like I said, star cannons are not worth it, Scat Lasers kill about 4.
Dragons? You do not get melta range first turn ever. Sooo about a 40% chance to kill(Venerable), but you definitely hurt a Dread with each unit.

This is all w/o guide of course, but you only get that once so go for it.

So now what? You just sacrificed 2 Dragons and 2 Serpents to at best kill two Dreadnoughts, but in doing so you left your Dragons exposed and your Serpents with their ***** facing all of my meltas (no shield). Well thats fun, I get to drop 3 Heavy Flamers on your Drangon/Serpent combo now--not to mention the 6 MMs your about to eat from Tacticals and Speeders. If anything I can just charge them withe the DC that was patiantly hidden behind my wall of Mech. Now your best anti-tank and your only mobility is gone. I can even just throw my DC into the open for your cannons. If I have cover you kill two--my IC can eat one Come one star cannons blow now.

Avengers are not reaching **** first turn so lets drop that nonsense. And I am not shooting them until everything else is dead because they pose no threat to anything--18" Boltguns are killing what exactly?. Lmao

And since you have such a slim chance of killing Baals, they are most likely operational and ready to wipe out you scatter walkers. Yes 12 TL AssCannon shots and 18 HBs take out squadroned walkers pretty nicely. Without cover I kill 3-4, with cover I take down 2.

Recap:
You killed two Dreads (I am being generous), might have popped a Rhino squad (who cares they can just sit on a back objective now), and Stunned a Predator or something.

I killed a couple Walkers and your two suicide Dragon/Serpent combo. But everything else--which is a lot-- is moving up now and you have one turn to stop my DC Jump Packs and MM/HF speeders from jumping up and frying ****.

Mobious
02-13-2010, 01:06 PM
Am I off-base here? Please someone explain to me how those Avengers would not be better off in Falcons or Serpents. You get the best speed in the game. You get some high strength shots to put down vehicles and heavy infantry. And you can actually hold objectives that are not in your Deployment zone because you can leave cover without dying.

And the walkers w/o Scatter lasers are just not frightening at all. 300 points for 6 BS 3 lances, or 240 for 12 Star Cannons? Come one now Scatter Walkers are your best option. But don't listen to me, listen to the guy telling you to play 4th edition with an Avatar.

The reason Fearless sucks on foot Avengers/Guardians is this; it is the exact opposite of what you want to happen. Taking fearless wounds reduces you to just a couple of models, leaving you susceptible to being wiped out the next assault phase. This lets a smart opponent prepare their assaults just right so they can leave combat on your turn (not theirs) instead of you losing combat, running (Initiative 5 helps) leaving them exposed to YOUR shooting. Fearless is not worth it, sure you do not get sweeping advanced but whatever already beat you in combat is just going to do it again anyway. Wouldn't you rather have the ability to leave combat and put those f*cks down with shots on your turn?

Sir Biscuit
02-13-2010, 01:27 PM
First off, I would like to apologize for the hostile nature that this thread seems to have. My only intent here is to analyze your list, and try to help you form a better one drawing on my own experience and knowledge of the game. There is no disrespect intended.

Second, knock it off Mobious. Running games in your head against this army and saying it's not good is not helpful, doubly so when you provide no actual advise for list building other than "it sucks". Games in the head are worthless.

Heimagiblin, your list and attitude smacks of a new player. You vastly overrate your own abilities while underrating the enemies. You have built an inflexible monofocus list that only performs well in its niche. My recommendation to you is to use the dice you surly have and lab the results for yourself. How effective is a scatterlaser, really, against a Rhino? How many marines does a starcannon kill? You have the BRB, you have the dice, so try it out.

If this list is in fact for a GT, try to find some other Eldar players there. Find out their tactics, why they take the units they take, and what really works. We're 40k players, we love to talk shop. :) There's a reason most Eldar lists don't look like this, and I suspect you'll figure out why.

Best of luck.

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 01:34 PM
Lol Well I rather not theory hammer this out with you, which by the way you did a terrible job of. But I do like how you think every time you shoot you wipe out whatever you target. Lol I didn't flip on you, I was really addressing Tynskelwho believes you do not have to Mech up if you want a real competitive list with Eldar. But lets run through the numbers you mashed up:

6 Lances vs. AV-13 = 17% to destroy (with cover save from the Dreadnought wall)
-Don't forget lances reduce your armour to 12!-see big book with warhammer 40k rules written on it.They will also be guided meaning 3 hits, re rolls to 4.5, 5-6is pen, 4 is glance, 1 pen 2 glance is about average giving me a good chance of doing alot of damage.
You are right that I should not have assumed first turn death though.
So every other turn you have a 1/3 chance to kill me. One of every six turns I am down.
I really don't want a maths off but on average after 2 the chances are you are dead(2 pens)
24 Scatter Lasers vs. AV 11 = 33% chance to destroy (cover from Baals . . . maybe even 3+)
You can give your rhino's 3+ cover saves?.You is awesome!!!(by thw you won't and that was sarcasm)
So every 3 turns you kill one Rhino with cover; not a mess of a Rhino to me.Getting angry,on average with 4+ cover saves 24 scatter lasers is inflicting i pen and 1 glance every turn. Sound like 3 turns to disable?
12 Star cannons vs. Marines = 2.5 Dead Marines (did you forget that I get saves from rhino craters?)I am so happy you are sitting in your rhino craters. You are out of rapid fire and my guns are 18 inch assault 2!!!CAn I get a game with you sometime(also sarcasm) Like I said, star cannons are not worth it, Scat Lasers kill about 4.
Dragons? You do not get melta range first turn ever. Sooo about a 40% chance to kill(Venerable), but you definitely hurt a Dread with each unit.At least read my post.The fire dragons don't do anything first turn.
This is all w/o guide of course, but you only get that once so go for it.

So now what? You just sacrificed 2 Dragons and 2 Serpents to at best kill two Dreadnoughts, but in doing so you left your Dragons exposed and your Serpents with their ***** facing all of my meltas (no shield). Well thats fun, I get to drop 3 Heavy Flamers on your Drangon/Serpent combo now--not to mention the 6 MMs your about to eat from Tacticals and Speeders. If anything I can just charge them withe the DC that was patiantly hidden behind my wall of Mech. Now your best anti-tank and your only mobility is gone. I can even just throw my DC into the open for your cannons. If I have cover you kill two--my IC can eat one Come one star cannons blow now.
Your mm were in rhino's and you said your land speeders were killing infantry.So I don't count any.And the death company will be doomed and executed thorugh 60 shots from 2 dire avenger squads when they become a nusiance.
Avengers are not reaching **** first turn so lets drop that nonsense. And I am not shooting them until everything else is dead because they pose no threat to anything--18" Boltguns are killing what exactly?. Lmao
You are a ------- idiot. Read the post. 1st turn dire avengers do nothing.
And since you have such a slim chance of killing Baals, they are most likely operational and ready to wipe out you scatter walkers. Yes 12 TL AssCannon shots and 18 HBs take out squadroned walkers pretty nicely. Without cover I kill 3-4, with cover I take down 2.

Recap:
You killed two Dreads (I am being generous), might have popped a Rhino squad (who cares they can just sit on a back objective now), and Stunned a Predator or something.
I over estimated my own army, You did the same. In what way have I only killed 2 dreadnoughts and a rhinoI killed a couple Walkers and your two suicide Dragon/Serpent combo-see earlier in the post. But everything else--which is a lot-- is moving up now and you have one turn to stop my DC Jump Packs and MM/HF speeders from jumping up and frying ****.

Please don't post again.PLease.

Tynskel
02-13-2010, 01:37 PM
Hah!

I guess I must be an idiot. I have only been playing this game since the early 90's, so I must have no experience dealing with ALL of the rules changes and tactics changes for almost 2 decades. No sir-ee! No, wait- I forgot to mention, I have squished my local meta game, and I have won tournaments with little or no Mech and with entire Armored forces.

I run successful armies both on foot and in mech. You do not 'need' mech. It is nice to have. There are plenty of lists out in the nether that are not mech and have won tournaments in the last 2 years and ARE Eldar.

There is more to Warhammer 40k than your Dreadnought wall. You are making assumptions that you will always be able to counter your opponents every move. You are also forgetting about outflanking, and terrain. Setup. Position. Game effects, like Dawn of War. You will not be able to counter your opponent's every move. That's impossible.

I play Blood Angels- that wall is not the best way to go all the time- not to mention, Boring. An Exciting list to play would be just 2 troops at 2000 points. You really have to think about what you are doing, and with 2 troops you have to stick to your plan, or you WILL fail.

Granted, Heimagiblin's army needs some fine tuning. But, not being mechanized is not the be all end all for Eldar, or any 40k army.

You have to be able to stick to a plan, even when things look grim. The games I have lost, and the games where I have seen excellent players lose, usually came down to a point where I, and the experienced players, decided to switch our game plan. Too much time spent reacting instead of just forcing your opponent to react.

In the case for Eldar, part of that plan is confusing your opponent. By having a variety of units, an Eldar player can control the game with forcing their opponent to constantly switch game plans.

Also, Eldar Transports are Expensive- a flat 90 points no upgrades- it is easier for the newer codexes to field lots of armor, it is cheaper. If you have an idea of what a foot army can do- I say, go for it.

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 02:23 PM
Now I thought Sir Biscuits's/Tynskel's entries deserve a seperate reply.

In a sence you are right about my inexperience with eldar, but I also use a mec space wolf list and regularly play at the veterans night at gw oxford, and am being taken to GT because one of the staff members(who placed 2nd at gt twice and several other top ten finishes) who thought I was good enough. This eldar list was a bit of an experiment although I do have experience with guard and necrons, so I know a bit about footslogging!!! If the eldar list is really a lost cause I have this space wolf list to fall back on.

Rune priest,,wolftooth necklace=110

8 grey gunters,melta,motw,wolf standard,rhino with extra armour=205
wolf guard with power fist,combi-melta=43

grey gunters,melta,motw,wolf standard,rhino with extra armour=205
wolf guard with power fist,combi-melta=43

grey gunters,melta,motw,wolf standard,rhino with extra armour=205
wolf guard with power fist,combi-melta=43

grey gunters,flamer,motw,wolf standard,rhino with extra armour=200
wolf guard with power fist,combi-flamer=43

6 longfangs,4 missile launchers,plasma cannon=150

6 longfangs,4 missile launchers,plasma cannon=150

land speeder,multi-melta,heavy flamer=70

4 thunderwolves,thunderhammer=230

1750 points.

Thats my backup plan. As for the eldar, What changes would everyone recommend. I'm convinced the eldar list has potential to be better than the Space wolf one.

Bigred
02-13-2010, 03:17 PM
Everybody, keep it civil....

Take a step back, breath, and count to 10. Remember we are debating the best tactical loadouts that will allow our beloved toy soldier space elves to defeat their mortal foes, the dreaded toy soldier space vampires...

Just saying.

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 04:07 PM
He does speak the truth.Lets make this thread a bit more friendly.

Mobious
02-13-2010, 04:56 PM
Hehe Alright I apologize, I was hungry and if you could not tell I was bugging out b/c it makes me giggle. Lol Anyway here we go . . .

I gave my advice Biscuit. I said he should get the Avengers in Serpents, change the War Walker load outs, and reduce his number of Dragons. And then someone disagreed about Mech so I strongly disagreed. And when the OP started theory hammering I did it right back just to show a couple flaws in the logic.

@ Heimagiblin . . .
I know how Lances work and I did the math right.
And like I mentioned I did everything without guide and then said you can choose what to put guide on--I
cannot guess your thoughts. W/o guide that still leaves it at 3 turn death I believe, every two you will
immobilize/destroy.
And yes I know how to get 3+ cover for a tank.

Alright no more theory hammer, I did not want to from the start. I am sorry, I misread those parts of the post and the recap was after turn 1.

@ Tynskel, I am not dounting your abilities as a player or the fact that mech can win. I just believe that the best thing for his army is to mechanize it. It is a much more competitive choice, and easier to win with imo. Feel free to disagree but please give me reasoning. Also I have 3 troop choices at 2000 so I am not sure where you are going with that--my Eldar list would be the same. I think you need it at 2000.

And also I realized was making assumptions, but it was the choice I was given when he started theory hammering. I know you cannot predict everything and I understand everything you just said, but I respectfully disagree. I think most armies are better off with Mech; and I believe that only very few can pull off wins in competitive environments without mech (unless its foot-to-foot).

Heimagiblin
02-13-2010, 05:19 PM
I know how Lances work and I did the math right.
Ok last bit of maths hammer ever on this thread.
6 lance shots, 3 hits, 1 pen gives a 4+chance to destroy or immobilize it. There is also half a chance you will get a glance which in turn could be an immobilized result. It takes 1-2 turns on average to disable the tank.
And like I mentioned I did everything without guide and then said you can choose what to put guide on--I And yes I know how to get 3+ cover for a tank.
Yea I re-read the vehicle obscure rules, I see what you tactic is now. Good trick to know,cheers.


I'm sorry to, I did get a bit worked up. Now, back on topic...

islyfe
02-13-2010, 08:33 PM
Honestly, This list gets ripped by almost every subpar list that I can think of. I hope this is a sick joke.

Tynskel
02-15-2010, 01:38 AM
Everybody, keep it civil....

Take a step back, breath, and count to 10. Remember we are debating the best tactical loadouts that will allow our beloved toy soldier space elves to defeat their mortal foes, the dreaded toy soldier space vampires...

Just saying.

1..2...3.....4......5.......6.........7..........8 ...........9................10!

Bwarrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhh!

;)


Recently, I have been experimenting with the 'minimum' amount of Space Marine troops. ~10 Marines in 1000 points, and 20 Marines in 2000 points

I have had much success. A couple of Tricks to this army. 1) The Tactical Combat squad must hide. I did not give them a heavy weapon for a reason: so they don't get shot at- place them some where you don't need line of site. They usually capture home turf objectives. When you want to protect Space Marines, they quite easily become very difficult to wipe out. 2) Don't get out of your transports. Let the armor do the work. This list requires finesse- I only ever run 3 claiming squads (2 Combat squads and the Assault Squad). You stay in those transports until you know you'll drive a killing blow. 3) Start the game with a troops transport on an objective. Especially in a 2 objective game, your opponent will be annoyed. They shoot the Rhino, and it sits there. Often a decent amount of firepower goes into the thing- but I don't care. I don't get out unless I am forced to. 4) Be Aggressive: They are Blood Angels, after all.

This army has yet to get old for me. I have been using variations of this list for months. Always, just 2 troops. Your opponent always gives you that look- only 2 troops? Yup. Just try to kill them- I dare you! And the game begins. 2 Rhinos, 2 Baals, 1 Razorback, 1 Vindicator, Terminators and a Dreadnought. Each one with a punch. Sure, sometimes my opponent gets lucky and kills all the troops. However, this usually comes at a price, and that is usually a table wipe. It is easy to contest and objective in 40k, it is difficult to capture.

The reason the list does not get old is because the Songs of Heros are sung when this army fights. So few Marines. And they kill so much. People talk about 'Cinematic' Marine stats. Bah! You don't need them- the Space Marines, as is, are truly the Heros of Humanity; nothing shall stay their wrath.

Sanguine Descendants:
Strike Force Theralas

HQ 100
Theralas
Special Character: Corbulo

TROOPS 580
Assault Squad Luna
10 Marines, Powerfist, Plasma Pistol,
Dedicated Transport: Everlasting Fury
Rhino
Tactical Squad Gamma
10 Marines, Powerfist, Plasma Pistol, Flamer,
Dedicated Transport: Emperor's Wrath
Razorback, Storm Bolter

FAST ATTACK 300
Attack Bike Squadron Furion
2 Bikes, 2 Multi-Meltas
Attack Bike Squadron Tenacious
2 Bikes, 2 Multi-Meltas
Attack Bike Squadron Sampson
2 Bikes, 2 Multi-Meltas

Hv SUPPORT 445
Empathy of the Emperor
Vindicator, Dozer Blade, Extra Armour
Hammer of Justice
Baal Predator, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour, Hv Bolters
Infinite Purity
Baal Predator, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour, Hv Bolters

ELITES 575
Callistar, The Determined
Furioso, Venerable, Death Co., Hv Flamer, Extra Armour,
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod
Terminator Squad Zeal
5 Terminators, Hv Flamer, Chainfist
Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod
Death Company Squad Fury
5 Marines
Dedicated Transport: Hymn to the Emperor
Rhino

kriswithak
02-22-2010, 09:17 PM
In the words of Farseer Mirehn Bielann:
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command, yet you still dare to oppose our will"

The one point I agree with, with Mobius is the fact that Mech is the easier kind of army to play these days, why do you think everyone plays it? (I personally hate mech tho)
For Eldar it also offers alot more control, but as an Eldar player our advantages of speed are rapidly diminishing as other armies get new better and cheaper rules and transports, while ours remain unchanged.
We are also limited in some ways in that only our shooting units really benefit hugely from our transports, while our HtH units face the disadvantage of waiting a turn in a not moving transport, or disembarking without the ability to assault, and with no real ranged capabilities. Fleet is also greatly diminished in value.

DA are a great choice, but they are pretty underwhelming versus anything with a 3+ save to say the very least. If you are combining fire on something they can certainly be effective, but their range isn't great and your relying on popping enemy tanks to make them slog to you.
The problem I see is that your going for torrent of fire, but your not using Eldar as the scalpal, and they aren't raelly a standup and shoot army from what most people seem to experience in competitive play.
That being said skill is a huge variable.

karandras
02-24-2010, 08:14 AM
Well, once again I seem to be late to the party and the thread seems to have veered a little off base! Kriswithak gave some very sound advice. I have been playing 40k since the twilight of RT and the release of 2nd edition. I have been playing Eldar since 3rd edition. I am a tourney player and am always amused at how quickly people underate Eldar in general and immediately dismiss "foot slogging" Eldar out of hand. As the Eldar are far too graceful to "foot slog", I will from this point forward replace "foot slog" with the term "non-mech".

Non-mech Eldar are a viable army if played correctly. Mech Eldar are effective too, but as was already stated, the high cost of transports means a relatively small army in comparison.

That being said, I completely agree with two key points that have already been raised. First, Eldar are an army of synergy between units and tend to break down if completely spammed. Six units of Avengers will never trump two of Avengers, two of Jetbikes, and two of Guardians. Second, despite what others have said, an Avatar is a very vital unit to running non-mech Eldar. He is the tip of the spear. Put Fortune on him and he is very tough to kill. Also, a big unit of Guardians with Conceal make a vital screening unit for your non-mech units behind them. They should last at least for a turn or two, enabling the rest of your units to benefit from a 4+ cover save while they close with the enemy.

The other posts have been spot on in regards to your Warwalker weapon load outs. Scatter Lasers are the way to go. If you outflank them, the Str.6 will often be enough to hurt enemy armour. If you want higher strength, go for EML+ SL combo. And again with the spamming. Warwalkers are perhaps the only unit that you don't lose out on spamming, but I personally would trade out at least one squad for a Wraithlord. This would help out with the fact that you have no dedicated assault units. On a side note to that, I regularly run my Avengers with Defend+Shimmershield. This actually gives them some ability in assault and makes them less one dimensional.

Your Wave Serpants that carry your precious Fire Dragons should have Spirit Stones to get your Dragons where they need to go and should have Twin-linked Brightlance and Shuriken Cannon upgrades. In regards to the Fire Dragons themselves, the poplular trend is to run just 5, but I agree with your unit size assesment. My standrard squad is 8 including an Exarch with Firepike, Tank Hunter, and Crack Shot. If your transport gets popped, you at least have one model with 18" range and the 9" melta range often permits a bonus die when the rest of the squad isn't quite within 6". Most enjoyable is the often overlooked 5 point Crack Shot ability that ignores cover. Often, so suprising when you tell your opponent he doesn't get a turbo-boost / smoke launchers / KFF save!

Eldar are the best. Other players could contend this point, but they would be wrong and easily dismissed as ignorant monkeigh (tongue in cheek). Phil Kelly did a brilliant job on this codex. The units (transports particularly) are a little over costed, but in the hands of a capable player the army holds up just fine.

geneticdeviant
03-09-2010, 08:49 AM
Ok guys, remember reading the following article on here recently posted by Bigred, excellent artcle about how a foot eldar list he uses himself can indeed be efective. I have copied it below here for conveinience. Mods, i hope you don't mind?

Heres the article:

Winning with Eldar in 5th Edition Part 1

I see the pointy eared space elves getting a lot of negative press these days. The general consensus on the net is that the Eldar are not the heavy hitters that they once were and that they are now relegated to playing defensively for objective grabs and pulling tricks out of their hat to have any hope of winning. Well, I am here to say that is not so, and that the Eldar are still one of the big boys on the block.

Eldar in 4th edition had a typical Phill Kelly codex: on the whole, a great book with no units that were totally useless, but one unit that was just too good. And that unit, as we all know, was the super falcon. In 4th all you had to do with Eldar was take 3 indestructible super Falcons, pack them with your choice of killer clowns and fire dragons, drive straight at your opponent, laugh as his weapons bounced off your skimmers like gentle rain, then deploy your units and slaughter everything before you while the Falcons parked on objectives. The list was arguably the best in the game at the time, and required very little tactics since the army was so hard to kill and the units inside the Falcons hit so hard. It was a blunt force instrument; you just clubbed the other guy over the head with it.

This is where I see people having trouble in 5th edition. With the changes to the core game rules, these old style skimmer armies lost a lot of steam. Falcons are no longer unstoppable juggernauts and Harlequins, while still amazing assault units, are no longer able to rip through an army like a buzz saw.

The game has changed and so tactics and overall ideas about how the army plays need to evolve as well. Playing a 4th edition style Eldar army in 5th is not going to get the results it once did. Eldar are an army that requires synergy within the list in order to succeed. You hear this a lot on the boards, but most people don’t really understand this concept or how to apply it. What I mean by synergy is that an Eldar list must have a mesh of units that all are able to support one another in order to mitigate its weaknesses and multiply its strengths. Eldar (and their dark kin) are an army that are really easy to lose with, but once mastered can be extremely powerful. You can’t just take the units you like and hope to win.

So how to do it? Any good list must begin with an overall strategy in mind. You need to address the main objectives of 5th edition missions and how to succeed in achieving them with what yo have available in your codex. There are a multitiude of options in each dex, but for the sake of this article we will analyze Foot Eldar and save an aggressive Mech list for next time.

If you decide to go foot Eldar which is a very potent option in 5th, your best bet is to go with Guardians, Dire Avengers and Rangers as your troops choices. Why? Guardians, while not providing a ton of kill power, are very useful none the less. First of all, don’t waste points giving them an anti tank weapon if you go the defender route, they are only going to disappoint you. They need to have rate of fire weapons, the cheaper the better. Mine always take a Shuriken Cannon which compliments their role of anti infantry. Second, max them out. Why? Less kill points to give up and they can perform one, hugely important function: screening. A foot list needs to have mobile cover (think Mek Boys, Venomethropes, etc.) and a 20 strong unit of Guardians led by a Warlock creates a huge line of cover for the infantry behind them. They also provide a screen from enemy assault units. They are a big, tough to shift scoring unit as well and can move and fire their weapons. This means that at close range, they can lay down a lot of flak fire to shred infantry. I know it runs counter to conventional wisdom, but conceal is a great buy for the warlock here. Why? Because this unit is operating as a screen, it needs to have a cover save to increase its resiliency and while it will normally have a 4+ cover save, you can’t run the risk of a mobile enemy maneuvering into position to negate that and shred those little toughness 3, 5+ bodies. This unit is also an assault defense as anything charging them (and as they are the screen, they will be the only thing able to be charged) will get stuck in the fearless Guardians and get counter charged next turn, or if they wipe the Guardians out, get shot and countercharged next turn.

Now the real power of this unit comes when combined with the HQ choices. A foot Eldar list needs two things to really be viable: the Avatar and a Farseer (Eldrad is really the clear choice here). The reason being that the Avatar makes everyone fearless (and provides incredible counter assault) and the Farseer fortunes the guardian screen to make them really difficult to kill (and the Avatar too with Eldrad, which is why you need him). What this means is that your opponent can choose to fire at the fortuned guardians or the infantry units behind them who will have a cover save. Now those flimsy Eldar are suddenly very hard to kill and fearless. Eldrad additionally allows you to bait your enemy with your deployment or react to him if you go first with his redeployment ability. Yet another reason Eldrad is the obvious choice here (and why he should honestly cost more than he does).

To compliment the Guardians, you have a lot of options, but I choose to run 4 full squads of Dire Avengers with no upgrades. Why? They are cheap, each a scoring unit, relatively fast and when run behind the guardian screen, pretty hard to kill. I pass on Bladestorm because to give it to three of the squads I would have to drop one full squad, and I would rather have the extra scoring unit and the extra bodies.

When combined with the guardians, this means you can put out 120 Shuriken Catapult rounds a turn, on the move. What this means is that ANY infantry that comes with 18” of you is going to be gutted. Not necessarily wiped out, but with wound allocation they will be neutered due to rate of fire. Combo this with Doom or Guide from your Farseer and you will see enemy infantry melt before you. This creates a no fly zone around your infantry that is going to intimidate the hell out of your opponent.

The last troops slot is a coin flip in my opinion. I alternate between a 5 man Ranger squad and a 3 man Jet Bike Squad with a Warlock plus Destructor and a Singing Spear. The Ranger squad doesn’t ever actually kill anything, but they will win you the game. Park them on an objective and go to ground if anything looks at them funny. I pass on pathfinders because they cost so much more and they don’t ever kill anything either. With 4+ cover saves so common now, their abilities are largely wasted. Better to save points on them, in my opinion.

The jet bike squad serves a similar function, they are there to grab an objective and win you the game, but they are fast, and they can hit hard in a pinch. The Warlock with a spear and destructor means they can effectively engage infantry or tank hunt. The choice really comes down to preference.

So, now you have a solid core of 6 troops choices (don’t see that too often with Eldar!) to make sure that you have the bodies to take objectives, and the firepower to waste infantry, plus the entire thing is mobile. The HQ choices multiply the effectiveness of these units and provide some counter assault punch. So what is the list lacking now? Anti tank/monstrous creature firepower.

With the preponderance of mech lists in 5th edition, you need to have reliable can openers or all those Shuriken Catapult shots will be useless. You have several options to fill this role, but I go with Wraithlords because they are so hard to kill. In this case, take three of them, all with an Eldar Missile Launcher and Bright Lance and two flamers. This gives you three very tough units that can reliably pop transports or take out heavy tanks at range and on the move. They also fill the secondary function of tar pitting units that you don’t want to engage in combat. Throw a Wraithlord into a 30 boy Ork Mob after you have Mind Warred the Nob and laugh as that unit does NOTHING for the rest of the game. They also do well at popping any tanks or squishing IC’s that get too close. They are wonderful multipurpose units and mesh well with the army as they will be in psyker cover to avoid Wraithsight (the Warlock with the Guardians should have spirit seer if you take Wraithlords). Just be wary of units with poison attacks, etc. Don’t expose them to assault until you are prepared by keeping them behind the screening units.

The second choice to fulfill this role for this type of list is War Walkers as they can put out an astonishing amount of firepower. Combo these guys with guide and fortune from your Farseer and they can devastate your opponent. My only issue with them is that they require psyker support to really function well and they are fairly flimsy when compared to a Wraithlord and are target priority number one for auto cannons and such.

With this core, the rest of the units in the army are discretionary depending on play style. I always take one unit of Firedragons with an Exarch with a Firepike and crack shot as this allows him to reach out to 18” and ignore cover (including smoke, etc.). This means that that Land Raider with Vulkan and Assault Terminators (or any such unit) will have to think twice about committing to an assault as it will most likely be destroyed once it gets close. Again, this unit takes cover behind the Guardians and moves and shoots, meshing with the rest of the list.

Lastly, the unit I always take is a 10 man unit of Harlequins with a Shadowseer, all with Kisses. This is the ultimate counter assault unit. It cannot be targeted until the enemy is within assault range, is very mobile and it hits incredibly hard. These guys can lurk outside of the screen to increase their mobility, just be wary of fast moving or deep striking units as anything that actually shoots them will most likely kill them. These guys will obliterate nearly anything but the absolute hardest assault units (and they mulch monstrous creatures). Combo this with doom or fortune from your Farseer and not much will be able to resist them. Against a shooty army these guys can be run aggressively, going up field to engage units. They don’t perform as well in this role, but they will at the very least absorb a turn of shooting as you force your opponent to deal with them. If they make it into enemy ranks, they will cause serious damage and they have good odds of destroying a tank with their rending attacks on rear armor.

So what you have on the whole with this list is an army with a lot of bodies (about 100), a unique play style, that is mobile and can effectively take on any type of list or units you encounter apart from a few builds (but no army can hope to have no weaknesses). Enemy units will have a very tough time cracking this phalanx as it is so powerful at short range with shooting and assault, and it is fearless. It takes about a turn to get into range, but once this army gets there it starts to put out serious pain. By careful positioning of your units and creative causality removal, you can keep your units safe from assault but then charge out of your screen when needed. You have a large amount of scoring units and with the Farseer and screening units they are very hard to kill. Another benefit to this army is that it screws up the Meta game. Players who pack in Melta weapons will have wasted all those points as they will have no targets worth shooting. Wraithlords should be deep in the screen to protect them, the infantry are a wasted target for these weapons, and the Avatar can’t be affected by them. Scary assault tanks that get close will be destroyed, and assault units can’t get past the Guardians to the meat of your army until late game when you have already done a lot of damage to them and counter assaulted.

Now it is not all sunshine and roses. This army suffers a bit in Dawn of War deployment, but it is fairly fast so it really only lose a turn of shooting, two if you flub your fleet roles. Also, armies with fast or ranged template weapons (think Hellhounds) and lots of indirect ordnance can be difficult to take on as they ignore your screens and hose your troops (Imperial Guard can be the nemesis to this list). In these situations, hope you get first turn and use your deployment to mitigate the alpha strike. Obviously, target priority needs to be implemented to eliminate the biggest threats first. The other big threat are armies that can shut down your psychic phase, but it is not all bad as this army does not NEED the psychic buffs, it just helps a lot if you can get them off.

Now that is fine for theory, but how does this army operate in practice? In a year of running my foot Eldar list as my primary army I have not yet lost a single game, and I play at least once a week against a very wide variety of armies and players who are very skilled, and play competitively. Now am I saying I am the greatest player of all time or that this list is unbeatable? No, I am not. What I am saying is that this is an Eldar list that can meet nearly any other army in the game head on and defeat them; whether it is a foot or mechanized list. No ducking, no hiding, no tricks, just a boot in the teeth. Plus, the army is a ton of fun to play and to play against as unlike skimmer armies, things actually die. I also have to say that unleashing a fortuned Avatar into enemy lines after having him lurk behind the screen is one of my favorite parts of this army (and I shelled out for the Forgeworld model, which makes an amazing centerpiece).

Here is the list I run that I have had tremendous success with. I can’t wait to finish painting it to take in on the tournament circuit, but the white and baby blue scheme I chose looks great, but takes ages to paint.

Headquarters:

Eldrad

Avatar

Elites:

Harlequins, kisses x 9, shadowseer

Fire Dragons x 7, Exarch, Firepike, Crack Shot

Troops:

Guardians x 20, shuriken cannon, warlock, spirit seer, singing spear, conceal

Dire avengers x 10

Dire Avengers x 10

Dire Avengers x 10

Dire Avengers x 10

Rangers x 5

Heavy Support:

Wraithlord, Eldar missile launcher, Bright lance, 2 x Flamers

Wraithlord, Eldar missile launcher, Bright lance, 2 x Flamers

Wraithlord, Eldar missile launcher, Bright lance, 2 x Flamers

This clearly implies that a foot Eldar list is definitely viable.

Thoughts and comments on strengths and weaknesses of the list above please?