PDA

View Full Version : GW 2014-2015 Half Year Results



Bigred
01-14-2015, 01:48 AM
The Report is Imminent...

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:57 AM
And here it is (http://investor.games-workshop.com/2015/01/13/half-yearly-report-2014/).

At constant currency - £1,000,000 down on takings compared to the same period last year, and by my (not necessarily accurate) working out, that's 98.3%.

Beyond that, it's all Greek to me.

daboarder
01-14-2015, 04:08 AM
And here it is (http://investor.games-workshop.com/2015/01/13/half-yearly-report-2014/).

At constant currency - £1,000,000 down on takings compared to the same period last year, and by my (not necessarily accurate) working out, that's 98.3%.

Beyond that, it's all Greek to me.

The fact that these numbers includes a new edition of their flag ship must have them ****ting themselves

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 05:20 AM
I guess.

Would need to look back at the previous 40k releases to see what sort of impact it normally has.

daboarder
01-14-2015, 05:32 AM
its the RULEBOOK. the one item everyone has to buy, its a decent benchmark for exactly how many people are in the hobby

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 05:38 AM
Well indeed, but the previous results might show the sort of spike you'd expect to see.

Wolfshade
01-14-2015, 06:27 AM
Quick skim, the figures are ok.

I mean they are still making a profit, but as dab says, you would expect a spike owing to the rulebook splash.

They try and "hide" some of the lessened profits because of currency strength.

It also seems to show that the weekly release model hasn't actually got hobbyists buying more.

Cost of sales has increased (one of the few figures that has!)

I think I would rather see the company re-invest rather than pay out a dividened.

Path Walker
01-14-2015, 07:11 AM
No rulebook spike and sales not that much down does seem to confirm that the main customers are collectors rather than players.

Wolfshade
01-14-2015, 07:17 AM
Oh and small increase in mail order sales, is this a result of the GW only products? Possibly, though realistically the increase is too small to say.

Cutter
01-14-2015, 07:24 AM
Oh and small increase in mail order sales, is this a result of the GW only products? Possibly, though realistically the increase is too small to say.

I missed the Kirby Komedy stylings...

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 08:38 AM
Blast, can't see it at work. (If anyone could be a dear and download it and put it somewhere "safe," that'd be great.) Ironically, the filter here blocks GW's investor website, but not their core website. Sometimes I wonder who's setting the rules for that thing...

Anyway, on topic...

It's not just the 40K rulebook, which was $85 so a hefty sum of money per purchase. Is this for the second half of the year, or first half? If second half, it should catch even more of the 40K rulebook sales, plus the two campaigns, all that End Times stuff, Orks, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar... Holy smokes, if you're down on sales despite all that stuff coming out, there's a problem. But even for the beginning of the year, you have the IG, Tempestus, Knights (which should have continued to sell as the year went on), Escalation and Stronghold Assault likely (I think they were late 2013 releases so might have moved more in early 2014), Dwarfs, Tyranids, probably more stuff I'm forgetting.

For the entire year, they swapped out the underperforming (gee, I wonder why?) $10 monthly White Dwarf with a $12 monthly Warhammer Visions and $4 weekly White Dwarf, so if people got all of those, that's $28/month at least. Of course, given the number of copies I see ending up in the trash (where they toss them, instead of trying to re-sell them), it seems they're not moving as well as expected, so the whole restructuring of WD to try to get more money for less work doesn't seem to have worked so well. Wow. Who could have seen that coming?

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 08:57 AM
So here's a funny line I read in an article about this:

"The group said growth in its UK retail division was offset by declines in North America and Europe."

So yeah, that whole excuse of UK retail being down and that affecting GW? Nope. Doesn't fly. GW did fine in the UK.

I suspect it's because their new business model is meant to drive people straight to them, which works in the UK with all those stores around, but in the US, where people like their independent retailers, they're pissing off a lot of people with lack of availability and a lot of the stuff they're doing (i.e. weekly WD).

I also find it a bit concerning - and would be more so if I was actually an investor - that yet again, you have a CEO of GW trying to spin a drop in sales as "growth."

40kGamer
01-14-2015, 09:16 AM
No big surprises. If you do a comparison of the first half to second half history over the last 5+ years the second half averages about 4.3% higher for revenue and 5.4% higher for profit. So an expected trend line would put the year at 115.4mil revenue and 12.7mil profit. If that proves to be true there's no reason for them to not simply stay the course.

Wolfshade
01-14-2015, 09:20 AM
So here's a funny line I read in an article about this:

"The group said growth in its UK retail division was offset by declines in North America and Europe."

So yeah, that whole excuse of UK retail being down and that affecting GW? Nope. Doesn't fly. GW did fine in the UK.

I suspect it's because their new business model is meant to drive people straight to them, which works in the UK with all those stores around, but in the US, where people like their independent retailers, they're pissing off a lot of people with lack of availability and a lot of the stuff they're doing (i.e. weekly WD).

I also find it a bit concerning - and would be more so if I was actually an investor - that yet again, you have a CEO of GW trying to spin a drop in sales as "growth."

This is an issue that I have debated on the forum before, essentially, I don't think that the UK model isn't a good fit for the world as an whole, in Japan and parts of Europe (and a few places in North America) it could work. It works well where you have fairly high population densities so single stores can be found in city centres and aren't too far to travel and have a large catchment populations.
I would be leveraging this FLGS, that have a dedicated community, and get them to bear the cost of a the store (and associated costs) rather than trying to go into competition with them, but then what do I know I have 0 experiance running a model store..

Charon
01-14-2015, 09:43 AM
This is an issue that I have debated on the forum before, essentially, I don't think that the UK model isn't a good fit for the world as an whole, in Japan and parts of Europe (and a few places in North America) it could work. It works well where you have fairly high population densities so single stores can be found in city centres and aren't too far to travel and have a large catchment populations.
I would be leveraging this FLGS, that have a dedicated community, and get them to bear the cost of a the store (and associated costs) rather than trying to go into competition with them, but then what do I know I have 0 experiance running a model store..

Not quite sure how this works out when you have a FLGS nearly next door that sells your products 15% cheaper grants you a bonus and sometimes has extra sales for another 10 - 15% while maintaining a hobby center with multiple tables nearby while the GW store sits on one small table that is for demo games only and hardly enough room to squeeze through between the table and the products.

Path Walker
01-14-2015, 10:08 AM
Not quite sure how this works out when you have a FLGS nearly next door that sells your products 15% cheaper grants you a bonus and sometimes has extra sales for another 10 - 15% while maintaining a hobby center with multiple tables nearby while the GW store sits on one small table that is for demo games only and hardly enough room to squeeze through between the table and the products.

The main demographic for GW is children and their parents, the sort of person put off my the cliquey nature, and the smell, of FLGSs

Defenestratus
01-14-2015, 10:16 AM
Not quite sure how this works out when you have a FLGS nearly next door that sells your products 15% cheaper grants you a bonus and sometimes has extra sales for another 10 - 15% while maintaining a hobby center with multiple tables nearby while the GW store sits on one small table that is for demo games only and hardly enough room to squeeze through between the table and the products.

I agree - the whole "location" argument doesn't hold water for me honestly. Certainly location is a factor but not the primary reason - after all we Americans drive everywhere. More important than location is "is there ample parking?" Its more of the facilities offered and the community that is fostered (in addition to the usual discount in prices) that make the NA LGS the most popular option.

When I moved to Georgia in 2006, I found out that there was a GW store in the Mall of Georgia, about 15 minutes down the highway from me. Perfectly located. It had three tables and it had a small painting station. The manager had fostered a decent community and we had a great time playing there for two years. Then corporate came down and told him that the store was going to close in three months, and so he and his redshirts went literally to the other side of the road from the mall, opened an LGS in an old Dupont Paints store (massive square footage) with a huge hobby area, small retail area and 12 quality, heavy duty tables that had casters on them so they could be linked together.

GW decided to keep the store open, but it didn't last. It closed 1 year later because nobody went there and the lease was up. The replacement GW store manager would come to the LGS... to play 40k since he said there was nobody at the GW store to play with.

GW Stores just don't offer what the LGS stores here offer. Socializing/Hobby areas, space to play without having to cramp into an uncomfortable space, and prices that are actually tolerable. The retail stores might be good for getting 10 year old kids to get their parents to buy them a boxed set, but not for fostering a wargaming community that leads to revolving sales.

Eldar_Atog
01-14-2015, 10:20 AM
Not quite sure how this works out when you have a FLGS nearly next door that sells your products 15% cheaper grants you a bonus and sometimes has extra sales for another 10 - 15% while maintaining a hobby center with multiple tables nearby while the GW store sits on one small table that is for demo games only and hardly enough room to squeeze through between the table and the products.

For me, it usually resulted in GW being crappy to the FLGS owner till he/her bans GW product from being used in their store. At that point, interest in the hobby tanks because of no play space besides people's homes. For most of the time I have played 40K, finding a play space was always the biggest hurdle.

The only reason FLGS in the states stock GW at all is because it has a large following. The profit margin is around 12% for the store owner while being a huge space hog. On the other hand, CCG's take much less shelf space and have about a 30% profit margin.. perhaps more if the owner keeps up with the market for card singles. (These figures come from store owners. I'm taking their word for it)

Renegade
01-14-2015, 01:02 PM
It all seems fairly positive and legit, apart from the line blaming stores for falling profit.

The continent has been in a malaise since 2008, falling profits from our neighbours are therefore to be expected, what is notable is the unprofitably of the US market for GW.

There is a big fall in the companies debt, what would be interesting would be to know what capital was being spent on to see such poor returns.

The complaints that the cost of the game is to high in the US is nullified by the fact that GW reports a loss in currency exchange rates, though this should be looked at more often (a lot of corporates adjust prices at least monthly to figure in fluctuations in market prices and reset exchange price). But I do not know the US market and a lot of US commentators go on about the rule set (which seems fine for the UK market, perhaps our cousins are playing the game wrong).

GW should keep doing what they are doing in the UK and take another look at the foreign market strategy, it is the latter that is letting the company down.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 01:27 PM
I agree - the whole "location" argument doesn't hold water for me honestly. Certainly location is a factor but not the primary reason - after all we Americans drive everywhere. More important than location is "is there ample parking?" Its more of the facilities offered and the community that is fostered (in addition to the usual discount in prices) that make the NA LGS the most popular option.

When I moved to Georgia in 2006, I found out that there was a GW store in the Mall of Georgia, about 15 minutes down the highway from me. Perfectly located. It had three tables and it had a small painting station. The manager had fostered a decent community and we had a great time playing there for two years. Then corporate came down and told him that the store was going to close in three months, and so he and his redshirts went literally to the other side of the road from the mall, opened an LGS in an old Dupont Paints store (massive square footage) with a huge hobby area, small retail area and 12 quality, heavy duty tables that had casters on them so they could be linked together.

GW decided to keep the store open, but it didn't last. It closed 1 year later because nobody went there and the lease was up. The replacement GW store manager would come to the LGS... to play 40k since he said there was nobody at the GW store to play with.

GW Stores just don't offer what the LGS stores here offer. Socializing/Hobby areas, space to play without having to cramp into an uncomfortable space, and prices that are actually tolerable. The retail stores might be good for getting 10 year old kids to get their parents to buy them a boxed set, but not for fostering a wargaming community that leads to revolving sales.

Well indeed. But, from their own breakdown, a not insignificant part of their US takings come from their relatively few stores. Main advantage being anyone getting started through a GW store is getting started in the GW Hobby, rather than the wargaming hobby (two separate entities, given GW offer everything you need).

Though I am always baffled by claims GW muscles out FLGS - as I've said before, if your local game shop, selling at a discount, and having served their community for however long can be shut down by someone else selling a single game at full retail, it's hard to say the newcomer is at fault.

But, new hand at the pump. Cynical as some might be, we may see new tricks being tried - it's too early to tell. For the moment, they remain in a decent amount of profit, and the sales slipping aren't anything that can't be turned around over a couple of years - it's simply not the outright collapse some want it to be seen as. For now, they have the luxury of being able to take their time, and not rush into things.

There was a job advertised fairly recently, which was to my mind a new role (certainly not aware of it having existed during my stints with the company, though I never rose higher than trainee manager). Seemed to be an intelligence gathering post. Was met with cynicism typical of the Dakka Hate Mob. Yet a role like that, given the lead times of GW stuff, any feedback is going to take a while to percolate through in terms of new products.

Loken
01-14-2015, 02:07 PM
The profit margin is around 12% for the store owner while being a huge space hog.

Dude you are clueless. GW standard discount is 47%. I owned a store, I know. You are quoting bull****.

Loken

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 02:13 PM
Dude you are clueless. GW standard discount is 47%. I owned a store, I know. You are quoting bull****.

Loken

To be fair, the discount might have gone down since you had a store, and they might be including other things in the mix, i.e. the cost of the space taken up by the product, etc. And the store might be offering a discount to try to get more sales, which would also cut into the profit margin, though that seems self-defeating if it's not that great to begin with.

Not saying he's right or anything, but maybe not jump straight to swearing and calling someone a liar, especially when they're repeating second-hand info?

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 02:14 PM
Mark up isn't the same as profit margin. There's what you pay for it, what you charge for it, and how much it costs you to sell it.

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 02:36 PM
Some more thoughts on all this (and I'll have yet more when I get home and can see the full report)...

I saw a mention somewhere that their publication (magazine, specifically) sales dropped, at least in the US. To me, that seems like a pretty clear condemnation of the new direction they went. It was, to be blunt, stupid. When your magazine isn't offering enough value to be bought at $10/month, you don't pump it up to $16+/month (with a side magazine that isn't terribly useful that's $12/month). But that can be saved, though it'd need another restructuring. Mercifully, publications are pretty easy to change direction with. My recommendation would be return to monthly White Dwarf, aim at $7 (or the equivalent in other nations), and try to include quality content. Keep the weekly release schedule for models, sure, and list the schedule in WD with a disclaimer that things might change if something comes up (though with less than four weeks out, you'd hope it doesn't). This means you're not telling people stuff too far ahead (even though I still disagree with the extreme secrecy), but you do give them an expectation of what's coming so they can budget for it. You can put brief info about the releases in the magazine, and use the website to further highlight releases on the week they're coming out. (Top recommendation would also be to do a slight shift to the website to allow for posting more information about recent releases, some "marketing pages." But that could require a good bit of work depending on what their setup is.)

They do have a problem with US customers, because US customers mostly go to LGSs, and while GW might not be shutting down LGSs, they don't make it easy for them to sell GW product. They try to act like it's in the stores' best interests to not allow them to order a lot of GW products, when it's really about making sure people have to buy direct from GW. At that point, they're competing with the LGS, and why would a store want to push a product line where a person would have to spend money away from the store to continue with it? That's just stupid. So now you're making the LGSs less likely to be your friends in selling your products, which cuts off ways to sell your product... and you lose sales in the process. That whole concept needs to be reconsidered. If a store wants to order a bunch of stuff and store it on their shelves, taking up their money, so be it. If they want to special-order stuff, let them. You'll get more sales by making friends with the stores, which will bring in more profit than trying to make all the sales direct at the expense of the LGSs. In the UK, that dynamic they have might work fine. In the US? Heck no. Other countries, probably not.

There's no all-at-once collapse, though it is a downward decline, and the new strategies really aren't helping. Heck, they're still trying to blame a lot of the lagging sales on the shift in store strategy and such, and you have to ask why they think that things will get better over time. I don't think their store strategy fits every market. We know other things haven't worked out well for them.

But yeah, they can turn around a lot of it fast. The thing is, they need to do it in a better way than they have. Some of their ideas have actually made a worse situation. So the solutions can't be kneejerk. And frankly, they need to stop with the "Everything is Awesome!" spiel. By the third report with declining sales, it comes off as cheesy at best.

Personally, the top fixes would be:

1. Change White Dwarf to fix its sales.
2. Improve relations with LGSs and don't look at them as "competition."
3. Find a way to lower the barrier of entry for both 40K and WFB.
4. Smooth out some of the spikier prices, and phase out some of the most expensive resin models. (While I like some of those kits, the combination of price and material is a double-blow. I'm talking stuff like Blood Knights, Orc Wyvern Rider, Azhag the Slaughterer, those kits.)
5. Shift everything to plastic ASAP. "Finecast" might be cheap, but when your models warp on the shelf and no one will buy them because, say, a Spellweaver's staff looks like an "S" in the blister, you're just taking up space and wasting money making models that get damaged before they ever reach a customer and will not sell. (Even if this is just a problem in climates like Florida, that's still a serious problem.) Plastic models can also be used in other strategic ways, i.e. making army boxed sets easily.

Of course, my opinions don't really matter, but it's fun to think, "What if they did this?"

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 02:41 PM
I'm always reticent when it comes to reports of their treatment of FLGS.

Some say they don't have any issues with GW. They order the stock, the stock comes in, and they accept returns on defunct stock (like old Codecies)

Some say they're worse than TurboHitlerSatan.

Issue there? We never get GW's side of it. I have no doubt the truth lies in between, but how many FLGS have run into supply issues due to payment issues? We don't know, and we'll never know.

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 03:06 PM
I'm always reticent when it comes to reports of their treatment of FLGS.

Some say they don't have any issues with GW. They order the stock, the stock comes in, and they accept returns on defunct stock (like old Codecies)

Some say they're worse than TurboHitlerSatan.

Issue there? We never get GW's side of it. I have no doubt the truth lies in between, but how many FLGS have run into supply issues due to payment issues? We don't know, and we'll never know.


Well, I'm just going by what GW does that we *know* they do, and that's limiting the availability of a lot of their line, which they have some positive line about to make it sound like it's to help the FLGS's, but it's really to make sure people have to come to them to purchase a lot of the stuff that makes up an army. If someone gets into WFB or 40K these days, they can't make all their purchases through their FLGS, they have to order some stuff direct from GW, which then takes money away from the FLGS. That's not a healthy relationship. It means that the FLGS won't really want to encourage GW games over other games, because the other games aren't taking money out of their shop. I think the lagging sales in the US are likely a result of this, and they'd make more profit if they fixed that relationship. They might not make as much profit on some individual product sales, but they'd be able to sell more and have a better reputation with the stores that might be frosty on them right now. Everyone wins.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:12 PM
I'm sure I've read other posts saying FLGS can order special stuff in?

clively
01-14-2015, 03:14 PM
Notables for me in the report:

Mail Order
Sales in our new online shop were broadly in line with comparable period in the prior year.

Spent how many millions on an updated "web store" and sales are approximately the same as prior year? fail.

Looking at the segment breakout:

Retail(their stores): £22.5m in revenue, £1.3m in losses
Trade(FLGS): £22.1m in revenue, £4.2m in profit
Mail Order (web site): £11.8 in revenue, £5.3 in profit.

Looking at that, GW should drop the retail stores - they are losing money - and bend over backwards to help the FLGS. Looking at those numbers it's apparent why they are blaming store managers for lousy sales. If I had no clue what the difference was between a GW store and a FLGS then I'd be blaming the store managers too.

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 03:14 PM
Oh, two other things I'd do, if I was running GW, that I think would help:

1. Sell the licensed products through their own stores and website. It's unlikely these would impact the sales of their regular products, but it would certainly add more variety of products and give them more opportunities to get money from customers. Some people might come in, thinking, "I've got everything for my army, don't really need anything," but then they see Warhammer 40,000: Conquest, and pick that up, and then the next week its expansions, and boom, that's some sales GW's made. It also keeps people from going elsewhere to find those products (where they might see actual competing products), and could build a bit of goodwill with the companies making the licensed products.

2. Not as easy to pull off as the others, but I think it would be brilliant to do 40K Skirmish and Warhammer Skirmish rules, for small battles involving a dozen or so models, and then throw together rules for using existing models, maybe make new settings or campaigns or something as newer stuff comes out. It'd be a "stepping stone" for new hobbyist (customers), or a new way for existing hobbyists to use their models. Wouldn't be too hard, and improves the sales potential of the existing models. Some people might even buy models for an army they don't play in 40K/WFB, in order to build a Skirmish warband. It's like Mordheim's relationship with Warhammer, only with the "Skirmish" rules tying in to the main games more, and pushing those games' lines in various ways. Relatively inexpensive way to push more product and bring in more people. (And, as noted by GW, once a person starts playing games, if the games are enjoyable, they get hooked and want to add more.)

Maybe a crazy idea, but I think it could fly.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:17 PM
Looking at that, GW should drop the retail stores - they are losing money - and bend over backwards to help the FLGS. Looking at those numbers it's apparent why they are blaming store managers for lousy sales. If I had no clue what the difference was between a GW store and a FLGS then I'd be blaming them too.

I'm guessing the concept of loss leader isn't something you're familiar with? No stores - reduced recruitment. Reduced recruitment, fewer people buying.

£1.3m losses in a retail chain isn't all that terrible, especially when you compare to the state of the average high street.

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 03:18 PM
Looking at that, GW should drop the retail stores - they are losing money - and bend over backwards to help the FLGS. Looking at those numbers it's apparent why they are blaming store managers for lousy sales. If I had no clue what the difference was between a GW store and a FLGS then I'd be blaming them too.

Need a bit more info than what's there. How many stores did they open? What was the cost of opening them? That could drive up the expenses, killing profits.

Some of their stores likely are in bad spots. Not all of them should be shut down. But it isn't easy to make money off of them, because you have the cost of rent, utilities, salary (even for just one employee), that's all after startup. You could easily be looking at something like $100,000 or more a year in expenses, based on location. So you have to move a lot of product to be profitable.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:19 PM
I know there's occasionally rumbles and rumours about it, but they could do with making Specialist Games available via license.

They may not be cost effective for GW to worry about, but I'm sure there's other publishers out there who would happily take that margin and run with it

Caitsidhe
01-14-2015, 03:26 PM
My personal favorite of the report is trying to shift the blame and weight on the middle managers. :D Second to that is the trouble finding the right managers that fit with their mental framework (so they can train them). It is so utterly weasel that it is hard not to laugh. We would be making money hand over foot if those darn managers can just keep up their part of the bargain.

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 03:28 PM
I know there's occasionally rumbles and rumours about it, but they could do with making Specialist Games available via license.

They may not be cost effective for GW to worry about, but I'm sure there's other publishers out there who would happily take that margin and run with it

Yeah, but if they do that, they'll probably want to make sure it's someone who did quality models. And I think they'd probably want those to stay away from models that could be used in their core games, so they aren't competing. Stuff like Epic, BFG, Warmaster, maybe even Man'O'War, I could see those making a comeback.

Necromunda would be a good one, it could directly compete with some of these small skirmish games.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:29 PM
One thing they could do for their stores is change up the release schedule.

As it is, the vast majority of their stores are shut when the new toys go up for pre-order. So whilst the orders come in, the local store doesn't get the immediate takings benefit (though I do buy all my non-limited stuff in store. Pay where you play, yo!)

I've found a work around whereby I drop buy on payday and buy e-vouchers through the store terminal, paying through the till. Manager (bloody great bloke, and I owe him a lot being my former manager, but that's a thread in itself) gets that off his target, and I can still be sat on my laptop (soon to be iPad, when it arrives) on the moment of release. Win/Win all round.

But, changing the release time to say, 12pm on a Saturday? Gives people a lie in, and the stores will be open. Give someone an excuse to visit your store, and they'll spend money. And competent staff can easily upsell, especially given regular visitors will have a rapport with the staff, and are much, much easier to sell to!

Wolfshade
01-14-2015, 03:30 PM
Weren't some of the FFG stuff via licence?

One needs to consider the cost of their shops to also be more than just a shop but as mystery alludes to as marketing also. Which given that GW doesn't actually advertise (other than in their own products, which if you have access to you probably are already familiar with them).

Also with Warhammer : Total War going to be rolled out I imagine the royalties will be looking rather healthy

Denzark
01-14-2015, 03:30 PM
Notables for me in the report:

Mail Order
Sales in our new online shop were broadly in line with comparable period in the prior year.

Spent how many millions on an updated "web store" and sales are approximately the same as prior year? fail.

Looking at the segment breakout:

Retail(their stores): £22.5m in revenue, £1.3m in losses
Trade(FLGS): £22.1m in revenue, £4.2m in profit
Mail Order (web site): £11.8 in revenue, £5.3 in profit.

Looking at that, GW should drop the retail stores - they are losing money - and bend over backwards to help the FLGS. Looking at those numbers it's apparent why they are blaming store managers for lousy sales. If I had no clue what the difference was between a GW store and a FLGS then I'd be blaming the store managers too.

This is I think indicative of the overall problem. This may work in the continental US because of how FLGS go. This wouldn't work in the UK which, if I understood the figures correctly, was in growth but the foreign retail was negative.

I think that GW doesn't understand (or deliberately doesn't feel it has to understand) its customers - especially US. but what is even more apparent is that this lack of understanding with attached lack of 'engagement' and lack of 'the customer is always right' is absolutely alien to people who have been lucky enough to have retail done the American way. Ie the US customer base.

Then they are vociferous about GW needing to treat its customers with more respect - I think that actually means 'treat its US customers with more respect'.

And regrettably when GW see vocal criticism couched in the very worst of gamer bile, it makes them even less likely to 'engage' with overtly hostile commentary.

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:31 PM
Yeah, but if they do that, they'll probably want to make sure it's someone who did quality models. And I think they'd probably want those to stay away from models that could be used in their core games, so they aren't competing. Stuff like Epic, BFG, Warmaster, maybe even Man'O'War, I could see those making a comeback.

Necromunda would be a good one, it could directly compete with some of these small skirmish games.

One assumes the moulds still exist. Certainly I know they have an archive of stuff up in Lenton (I've seen it with my own two eyes, but never got shown round it). Lease those as part and parcel of the license.

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 03:33 PM
My personal favorite of the report is trying to shift the blame and weight on the middle managers. :D Second to that is the trouble finding the right managers that fit with their mental framework (so they can train them). It is so utterly weasel that it is hard not to laugh. We would be making money hand over foot if those darn managers can just keep up their part of the bargain.

Again, trying to be fair here... You need to find employees that fit what you're trying to do. Those stores are not a cheap investment, so you want someone in charge who isn't going to waste that money. If you have someone like the guy we're lucky to have in town, you can actually have a GW location in a city with multiple FLGS's (including one named FLGS) that people like and still have it make money and draw people in repeatedly. If you have a guy who isn't really excited about the hobby, then they're not likely to really attract customers into the hobby, or keep people coming back over and over.

- - - Updated - - -


One assumes the moulds still exist. Certainly I know they have an archive of stuff up in Lenton (I've seen it with my own two eyes, but never got shown round it). Lease those as part and parcel of the license.

Yeah, that would be an ideal starting point. But a healthy game should also have room to grow. If they can make new models in the same style, that's the "perfect" fit.

Eldar_Atog
01-14-2015, 03:38 PM
Dude you are clueless. GW standard discount is 47%. I owned a store, I know. You are quoting bull****.

Loken

*sigh* As I said, I was taking the store owner's word for it. It was one of the reasons he gave when he stopped stocking GW and pulled the play space from the wargamers in Spring of 2014. I have no way to verify but I've always been told the profit margin for supporting GW merchandise was lower than almost everything else a hobby store normally stocks.

Caitsidhe
01-14-2015, 03:40 PM
Well I want to get out ahead and give my prediction for the next report, i.e. I'll go out on a limb and predict another drop of 3+% in sales minimum. :D I feel the largest loss will be in what they are calling Trade now, that online will remain about the same, and that they will also remain stagnant with U.K. sales gaining at most about +1%.

Mr Mystery
01-14-2015, 03:48 PM
Given inflation in the UK is currently around 0.5%, +1% sales isn't stagnant.

Luddite
01-14-2015, 04:30 PM
GW continues its decline, and seems to be disgracefully blaming it on its front line sales staff, rather than its disastrous management decisions, and insistence that is sells 'collectable figurines' rather than games and gaming pieces (i.e. failure to understand its customer base and the product it actually sells).

With the rise of Warlord, Mantic, and others moving onto GWs ground with Kings of War and Bolt Action, and the Privateer Press threat from Warmahordes; GW has lost its monopoly, and its way.

Basically the people that founded GW and who've been kicked out by bean counters are now running companies that are taking GW money from ex-GW players.

I do a lot of tournament play and it seems to me that most clubs across the UK, that had nothing but 40k on their tables, are now playing nothing but Bolt Action.

I don't see this trend reversing. GW just aren't doing the basics right - good competitive games, quality reasonably priced models, vibrant support for the hobby. There's only so much wallet gouging a company can do before players look elsewhere. And that 'elsewhere' currently is with companies that produce better games and better value toys.

Renegade
01-14-2015, 04:36 PM
Given inflation in the UK is currently around 0.5%, +1% sales isn't stagnant.

Not going to hold my breath on the next results, due to the general election in May this year things could go a little wonky for a while, but at least there is a bottom line when it comes to wages.

As long as the UK has between 0.5% and 0.2% inflation things should be good, but I don't see the continent yielding better results and the US needs a definite rethink.

I would close GW US down and run things from the profit base in the UK. This would mean that the only presence that GW has in the US is through the independent stores, which it can probably extract a lot more money from than its own stores, which should enable GW to get around the loses on exchange rates and in a few other areas.

40kGamer
01-14-2015, 04:40 PM
Given inflation in the UK is currently around 0.5%, +1% sales isn't stagnant.

Mate if the 0.5% comes from a government calculation it's likely as phony as a $3US bill. :p

Caitsidhe
01-14-2015, 04:58 PM
Well I want to get out ahead and give my prediction for the next report, i.e. I'll go out on a limb and predict another drop of 3+% in sales minimum. :D I feel the largest loss will be in what they are calling Trade now, that online will remain about the same, and that they will also remain stagnant with U.K. sales gaining at most about +1%.

I just wanted to go on record and be as specific as possible. :D I've made lots of predictions in the past and when they come out correct, some have tried to frame me as being too general. I've been very specific. I predicted the last report would be a drop. I predicted this report would be a drop (I even said it is the U.S. market where they are losing the most sales). I predicted very accurately the outcome of their legal case. I suspect (although I have no way of proving it for now) that I evaluated their settlement with Chapterhouse correctly. So I'm on record now. Who else is willing to put their word in black and white?

Erik Setzer
01-14-2015, 07:47 PM
I finally downloaded the whole report and had a peaceful moment to look over it while having dinner (hey, I'm a single nerd, I can eat at the computer if I want), and I have to say, it feels... kind of ominous. I don't want to do the "doom and gloom" GW-bashing and claiming it's going to close down. I think it can remain operational at least for another couple years or so before it actually hits losses. But the way they're doing that is what bothers me. They have a steady decline in revenue, but it's also been met with a steady decline in expenses. The report says that they have the money to stay going for the foreseeable future. It doesn't really say much about real growth. A lot of the spending is being done to restructure the company to cut costs as much as possible, not to improve the product or sales. It really has the feeling of a company that's saying, "Hey, we can make a few million pounds a year, we're getting paid a decent bit, let's just keep going at this pace." Like they're just putting it in a holding pattern and saying it's good enough. Stagnant companies don't last indefinitely. And if they feel like just doing the minimum to keep going, that's not helping the hobby to grow. They need some fresh blood, fast. Or something big to happen to shake them up. I doubt that's going to happen.

But some of their ideas have also ended up backfiring. Magazine sales are at a loss for them, which means that even as WD alone (not even adding in Visions) costs a good bit more than it did last year, they're not selling that many copies, and are taking a hit. I don't know if an investor report would mention any plans for doing so, but I'd think that would be a hint that they need to go in a different direction. Still, I think they're fine with it, because the expenses for WD and Visions are, as I've noted, apparently so low they can just throw away all those unsold copies. So they'll accept reduced sales because with reduced expenses, they're still making a profit... and that's how the whole report feels. Drops in sales aren't a big deal, even if they come with a drop in profit, because they're still making profit.

I'm actually more worried now than I would have been if they'd had a loss. Publicly they still would have been talking sunshine, but the current report isn't talking sunshine so much as just saying it's all good enough.

Caitsidhe
01-14-2015, 09:31 PM
I'm actually more worried now than I would have been if they'd had a loss. Publicly they still would have been talking sunshine, but the current report isn't talking sunshine so much as just saying it's all good enough.

I agree that there is a faction on the Board that does think it is "good enough." :D There are a core of people who like their positions and their income. It is based largely on "other people's money" and their salaries and personal power doesn't really hinge on greater or lesser sales. For the most part, their salaries and power doesn't really hinge on stock prices either, at least not... yet. This is tragedy of small corporations. Games Workshop was big enough to draw investors, but not big enough for those investors to be a real threat to the the company insiders. In short, it is almost impossible to remove the people who are mucking up the works. Kirby, for example, is a detriment to the company. He is a poison apple slowly rotting in the basket and tainting all the other fruit. Unfortunately, there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it for the time being.

He stepped back from CEO officially, but don't let that fool you. He still holds all the reigns. He sits on the board because they couldn't oust him. He made it clear in his darkly funny statement before the last report that he isn't going anywhere and his replacement will do as told. The problem is the Board doesn't serve stockholders. It serves the Board. Apologists and defenders will point out that Games Workshop paid dividends. Who cares. That is a pittance. It is the value of the stocks that most interests stockholders who are not on that board and doling out salaries and lucrative contracts to relatives. :D The value of the stock is going down. The industry and investors at large aren't stupid. They know full well that a new edition of the game is the golden arrow. Games Workshop fired that arrow. It released a new edition of its strongest selling product (40K) and sales and profits went DOWN. This isn't some temporary fluctuation. This isn't a fad. They are losing customer base and potential customer base.

This is important because as you noted, they aren't talking about growth. This is because for growth requires money that would normally be obtained by selling stocks (which aren't worth much right now) or loans. Serious investment requires big loans. You have to spend money to make money. The Board doesn't want to do this because to reinvest they would have to:

1. Sell more shares which might put them at jeopardy of having their fat ***** removed from the Board.
2. Change direction which would admit that the fault is not with some poor schmuck middle managers.
3. Incur more debt which would glaringly show them in a harsh light if it didn't produce growth.

This means, as you seem to discern yourself, that it is in the best interests of some people to just hold the line. After all, they already got theirs. Why not ride that gravy train until the ship founders? Then they can just catch a Cruise Ship into a golden retirement (or whatever). There is ZERO incentive for them to do more because their personal profits don't come from stock or sales but rather from self given salaries. :D

daboarder
01-14-2015, 09:52 PM
good write up cait

Renegade
01-15-2015, 02:24 AM
I agree that there is a faction on the Board that does think it is "good enough." :D There are a core of people who like their positions and their income. It is based largely on "other people's money" and their salaries and personal power doesn't really hinge on greater or lesser sales. For the most part, their salaries and power doesn't really hinge on stock prices either, at least not... yet. This is tragedy of small corporations. Games Workshop was big enough to draw investors, but not big enough for those investors to be a real threat to the the company insiders. In short, it is almost impossible to remove the people who are mucking up the works. Kirby, for example, is a detriment to the company. He is a poison apple slowly rotting in the basket and tainting all the other fruit. Unfortunately, there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it for the time being.

He stepped back from CEO officially, but don't let that fool you. He still holds all the reigns. He sits on the board because they couldn't oust him. He made it clear in his darkly funny statement before the last report that he isn't going anywhere and his replacement will do as told. The problem is the Board doesn't serve stockholders. It serves the Board. Apologists and defenders will point out that Games Workshop paid dividends. Who cares. That is a pittance. It is the value of the stocks that most interests stockholders who are not on that board and doling out salaries and lucrative contracts to relatives. :D The value of the stock is going down. The industry and investors at large aren't stupid. They know full well that a new edition of the game is the golden arrow. Games Workshop fired that arrow. It released a new edition of its strongest selling product (40K) and sales and profits went DOWN. This isn't some temporary fluctuation. This isn't a fad. They are losing customer base and potential customer base.

This is important because as you noted, they aren't talking about growth. This is because for growth requires money that would normally be obtained by selling stocks (which aren't worth much right now) or loans. Serious investment requires big loans. You have to spend money to make money. The Board doesn't want to do this because to reinvest they would have to:

1. Sell more shares which might put them at jeopardy of having their fat ***** removed from the Board.
2. Change direction which would admit that the fault is not with some poor schmuck middle managers.
3. Incur more debt which would glaringly show them in a harsh light if it didn't produce growth.

This means, as you seem to discern yourself, that it is in the best interests of some people to just hold the line. After all, they already got theirs. Why not ride that gravy train until the ship founders? Then they can just catch a Cruise Ship into a golden retirement (or whatever). There is ZERO incentive for them to do more because their personal profits don't come from stock or sales but rather from self given salaries. :D

The problem with your analysis is that the biggest loss makers are foreign markets, GW are doing fine in the UK, the continent and the US markets are a drain.

Caitsidhe
01-15-2015, 02:46 AM
The problem with your analysis is that the biggest loss makers are foreign markets, GW are doing fine in the UK, the continent and the US markets are a drain.

That isn't a problem with my analysis at all. I have been, in fact, commenting for quite sometime that Games Workshop's current course of action was alienating the U.S. market directly. Given their own prospective says that 70% of their sales come from outside the United Kingdom, it stands to reason that they are going to have issues when they use the United Kingdom as their sole standard for success. Nobody is saying, aside from the apologists for Games Workshop, that they are doing poorly in the United Kingdom. It has been a popular refrain by those defending GW to try and sluff off their losses as part of a downturn in United Kingdom. That has now been debunked by GW's own financial report. :D

What my analysis comments on is that there is no reason whatsoever, no incentive, for certain people with power on the Board at GW to innovate or change course. That analysis is not linked at all to U.K. performance, only with the overall performance.

Renegade
01-15-2015, 02:58 AM
That isn't a problem with my analysis at all. I have been, in fact, commenting for quite sometime that Games Workshop's current course of action was alienating the U.S. market directly. Given their own prospective says that 70% of their sales come from outside the United Kingdom, it stands to reason that they are going to have issues when they use the United Kingdom as their sole standard for success. Nobody is saying, aside from the apologists for Games Workshop, that they are doing poorly in the United Kingdom. It has been a popular refrain by those defending GW to try and sluff off their losses as part of a downturn in United Kingdom. That has now been debunked by GW's own financial report. :D

What my analysis comments on is that there is no reason whatsoever, no incentive, for certain people with power on the Board at GW to innovate or change course. That analysis is not linked at all to U.K. performance, only with the overall performance.

The overall performance is reasonable, given the economic climate, with the hurdles being further down turn on the continent and a bellicose US customers.

GW will probably want to hold course for the current period regardless due to numerous upcoming events, with even a slow change of direction not happening till 2016-2018.

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 06:17 AM
The overall performance is reasonable, given the economic climate, with the hurdles being further down turn on the continent and a bellicose US customers.

GW will probably want to hold course for the current period regardless due to numerous upcoming events, with even a slow change of direction not happening till 2016-2018.

The "economic climate" can only be used as an excuse for so long. Here in the US, it's not bad. In the UK, the economy didn't seem to hurt GW at all. The economic climate isn't the problem. If it is a problem, then maybe they should change their business model back away from pretending they have some kind of elegant luxury products that people should pay a high amount to collect (which is a stupid model even in good times). Economy isn't the reason people in the US are moving away from GW. They're spending the same amount on hobby stuff, possibly more. But GW refuses to admit they have competitors, they keep trying to get people to buy direct instead of supporting their FLGS, and they don't see how hard it is to convince people to join you in getting into a game that requires spending hundreds of dollars just to get into. (But hey, when you get paid like that Board does, that's probably nothing to them.)

They made their own problems. They chose to do things like go to an even dumber model for White Dwarf rather than fixing it to make it a more desirable purchase (magazine sales being down were noted as a key contributor). They choose to continue this luxury product business model. They choose to ignore competition. It is not "economic climate." It's poor business choices.

But they're okay with all that, because as long as they can keep restructuring to trim expenses, even if it means less market research, customer outreach, any of that stuff, they can keep getting a profit and look fine, even as sales drop.

Wolfshade
01-15-2015, 06:20 AM
Don't forget Canada, North America is not just US.

Caitsidhe
01-15-2015, 07:35 AM
The overall performance is reasonable, given the economic climate, with the hurdles being further down turn on the continent and a bellicose US customers.

Bellicose US customers. So now the United States being bellicose is a factor along with poor middle managers? :D Of course, last I heard Australia and quite a few other places were feeling bellicose too. Let's for a moment pretend that we are all bellicose, how did we get this way? Are you implying it is natural, that we Americans just can't help ourselves? One wonders why Games Workshop ever did business with us at all.


GW will probably want to hold course for the current period regardless due to numerous upcoming events, with even a slow change of direction not happening till 2016-2018.

Well... that would be bad even if one were just to assume the average decline in sales continues, assuming it is their current course and policies causing said decline. Think about how many more reports there would be and how many more dips until they hit the floor. What is special about 2016-2018? Do you expect someone to die?

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 08:31 AM
Don't forget Canada, North America is not just US.

Yeah. Mexico is also part of North America, unless you count it as part of Central America... that one's a bit confusing. But, with no offense intended to Canadians, I mentioned the US primarily as that's by far the biggest NA market, and the one that'd be most influential on their sales.

I also can't speak to the Canadian mindset for making hobby purchases, or how Canada's economy is doing.

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 08:43 AM
And yeah, I have to take some offense to the term "bellicose US customers." That suggests that US customers are naturally combative. At one point, GW was welcome in the US and was big. They had multiple GTs, even multiple Games Days. They had the Rogue Trader Tournament system, the Outrider system (and then nearly the Pathfinder system, but killed that). They had a customer service group that interacted with the community and even did a newsletter with tips as well as news (and took submissions). The US market was happy with GW.

Fast-forward a few years. They killed off the GTs (because Indy GTs were sprouting up and they could save money). They killed off all Games Days, before killing them off worldwide. They shut down Roolzboyz, the newsletter, pretty much all interaction with customers. They recently closed the gaming part of the World of Battle, leaving few spaces to play in that location. They've become less friendly toward the FLGS's we all love in an effort to push us to order direction from GW... and they killed off all the old sales and stuff they used to do, and the incentives program for ordering direct. Heck, we used to even have our own version of White Dwarf, tailored to the US, with regional articles, not just the list of stores and events being regional.

That's just the regional issues. Never mind the worldwide issues like pricing, or the mess that is Finecast (which I guess might be a "regional" issue since maybe the sun doesn't shine enough in the UK for them to realize that garbage warps in the slightest heat, which has left a lot of unusable models still in blisters on the local store's shelf), or the magazine disaster.

US customers aren't just naturally pissy with GW. They're upset because GW came into the US and did a lot of awesome things, and made people want to be a part of the hobby... and then did a reverse course and these days it feels like GW wants us all to go die in a fire. All to save money, which they have to do more of now, because all of these piss-on-the-customer decisions have led to lower sales. So the only way to keep making profit is keep cutting back more and more.

Caitsidhe
01-15-2015, 08:52 AM
This is an anecdotal tale but I think it bears on the situation. Down in Texas there are a lot of Chinese Buffet restaurants. The Hill Country has what seems like hundreds if not thousands of them. Whenever a new one opens people flock to it because that restaurant primes the pump. They go all out for a year making everything fresh, huge variety in the selection, and include the prime cuts and more expensive seafood. Eventually, these places decide they have achieved proper word of mouth and gotten regular patrons. They cut back on everything and it shows in short order. People migrate to the next one.

The problem is that you can't just prime the pump and leave. Customers in the United States, at least, expect you to maintain a ground floor of what you establish. The second you drop beneath the bar you set yourself, they comment on it and eventually abandon you. That is because another vendor is opening up across town. We don't feel we owe you anything for the good old days when expensive salmon sushi was on the buffet. We simply feel disgusted when we find nothing but California Rolls there now. We don't get nostalgic; we get annoyed. We hold you to the bar you set, nothing more and nothing less. Right now everyone is checking out new restaurants.

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 09:05 AM
We don't get nostalgic; we get annoyed.

Actually, my nostalgia *is* the reason I'm annoyed. I remember the "good old days." The more I think about them and remember stuff, the more annoyed I get. I've been around long enough to know they can do more, and they were clearly growing at the time, which means that stuff is worth doing.

Now, it feels like I'm watching someone who was once full of life and energetic just settling in to sitting on the couch every night watching stale sitcoms and getting a little bit of enjoyment out of them and saying to himself, "This is a good enough life, I think I'll just do this from now on and not rock the boat." It's sad and pathetic and you feel like the person you knew and loved is just dead now, replaced by something lifeless and cold that just... exists.

40kGamer
01-15-2015, 09:29 AM
GW's problems are all self created.

1) Not enough time in the garden leads to a lot of weeds. When they killed the Specialist Games they left a market vacuum begging to be exploited. No surprise that a lot of companies jumped in to fill the void taking $ directly out of GW's pocket.
2) No respect for human capital. By not tending to their staff a large chunk of their talent has either went independent or moved off to the competition.
3) A one size fits all mentality. Using a single business model for the entire world is pure madness! And that is the nicest possible way to state this.
4) Community disenchantment. While this has always been around, stupid moves like the Spot the Space Marine debacle have taken things to a whole new level. Seriously, you know you've jumped the shark when Wil Wheaton speaks out against your company.
5) A disconnected identity. Collectible model company or game company?

I'm sure there are plenty more issues for them to deal with but these come to mind.

Cutter
01-15-2015, 09:31 AM
I'm actually more worried now than I would have been if they'd had a loss. Publicly they still would have been talking sunshine, but the current report isn't talking sunshine so much as just saying it's all good enough.

Ah that takes me back to the halcyon days of GW Belfast, "It's not just good, it's good enough..."

40kGamer
01-15-2015, 09:31 AM
Don't forget Canada, North America is not just US.

Better include Mexico too then... :p

Not sure how our friends up North view GW. I know the cross border sales restrictions that GW imposed was not popular with them.

40kGamer
01-15-2015, 09:41 AM
And yeah, I have to take some offense to the term "bellicose US customers." That suggests that US customers are naturally combative.

Bah! This is actually a complement vs the alternative of blind loyalty and submission.

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 10:23 AM
Bah! This is actually a complement vs the alternative of blind loyalty and submission.

Well, blind loyalty in the US is typically reserved for sports. But having seen soccer fans, that seems to be a worldwide thing.

Renegade
01-15-2015, 11:35 AM
Bellicose US customers. So now the United States being bellicose is a factor along with poor middle managers? :D Of course, last I heard Australia and quite a few other places were feeling bellicose too. Let's for a moment pretend that we are all bellicose, how did we get this way? Are you implying it is natural, that we Americans just can't help ourselves? One wonders why Games Workshop ever did business with us at all.

That kind of response is what I mean. The majority of GW's competitors are US based, and it looks like the US was getting things cheap when considering the loss made on exchange rates, so what is the complaint about prices?

Given that the game sells well in the UK, it is a difference in the cultures that sees it do less well in the US, as the cost of the game and the rules are pretty much the same.

As for sale to the continent, the whole euro area is pretty much a cesspit with only a few countries where unemployment is in single figures, but the whole area slipped into depression in December. Sale outside to the few non euro countries is not going to make up the market much when the majority of them are not known for having citizens with plenty of disposable income.


Well... that would be bad even if one were just to assume the average decline in sales continues, assuming it is their current course and policies causing said decline. Think about how many more reports there would be and how many more dips until they hit the floor. What is special about 2016-2018? Do you expect someone to die?

Elections and possible major referendum in the UK, they will likely want to hold till things settle down after those.

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 11:50 AM
Given that the game sells well in the UK, it is a difference in the cultures that sees it do less well in the US, as the cost of the game and the rules are pretty much the same.

I think the "difference in cultures" is that GW was able to seed the UK with stores (IIRC, they numbered in the hundreds at one point), meaning there was a LOT of exposure to them. It became a "British thing" and even public figures got in on the act (right down to a guy skipping a key vote to go play Warhammer instead). So for the UK, it's like a national pride thing, based on seeing GW everywhere and knowing it's based in the UK.

In the US... not so much. Too large for them to do the kind of retail store saturation, and no national pride involved. So it's like any other company. Either you provide value for what you're selling, or we go to someone else.

I think they might be taking the UK market a little bit for granted right now. Probably shouldn't do that. I doubt people in the UK will stay loyal forever if they sense they're being fleeced.

Caitsidhe
01-15-2015, 11:53 AM
That kind of response is what I mean. The majority of GW's competitors are US based, and it looks like the US was getting things cheap when considering the loss made on exchange rates, so what is the complaint about prices?

While excessive prices are certainly a problem for GW in the United States, I think it is their business model in regards to community outreach and perception that is hurting them even more.


Given that the game sells well in the UK, it is a difference in the cultures that sees it do less well in the US, as the cost of the game and the rules are pretty much the same.

The prices aren't entirely the same no, but close enough. But you have just stated what I've been arguing for two years now. Games Workshop doesn't do market research or appear willing to adapt their business model in the United States to fit cultural differences. This is, to be blunt, idiotic. When in Rome you do as the Romans do. You adapt your practices for the area in which you are selling. To refuse to do so obstinately is simply bad business and kind of stupid.


As for sale to the continent, the whole euro area is pretty much a cesspit with only a few countries where unemployment is in single figures, but the whole area slipped into depression in December. Sale outside to the few non euro countries is not going to make up the market much when the majority of them are not known for having citizens with plenty of disposable income.

You really have a way with words don't you? We Americans are bellicose and Europe (aside from the U.K. I assume) is a cesspit? :D That will make you friends and influence people. Of course, you are only enunciating the mindset and approach that Games Workshop itself is taking with all these other countries, i.e. what they themselves admit makes up 70% of their sales. :D Somehow, I'm not certain insulting or antagonizing 70% of your customers ranks up there with great ideas. It sounds more like one of Baldric's cunning plans.


Elections and possible major referendum in the UK, they will likely want to hold till things settle down after those.

This you are going to have to explain. How exactly are the elections and referendums in the U.K. tied to Games Workshop refusing to alter its course (no matter the clear damage to its bottom line)? I'm not certain I see how any shifts would alter their fundamental position in the current niche market. :D

Erik Setzer
01-15-2015, 12:02 PM
I'll play a bit of "Devil's Advocate" here.

I think he meant "cesspit" in terms of the economies of those nations. Depending on how they're doing, that might be an accurate term, even if it sounds nasty.

Laws can also have some serious effects on businesses. The head of the company I work for mentioned a couple years ago at our company conference that our growth or losses could depend on how upcoming elections went and some laws that were about to come into play. A new group of people in office might make laws that are friendlier or worse for businesses, and that can affect how your business operates. That said, you should have a plan in place to be flexible. We did, and rather than be adversely affected by anything, we've rode the recovering economy to some nice gains.

I also have to say that GW *did* do different stuff for the US at one point. They recognized North America was a major area, especially the US, and had a regional HQ. They did a US-specific version of White Dwarf, they had customer service staff over here (who engaged with the customers), they ran events, they had a whole regional strategy. But as they've gotten into this stagnant cycle, they stripped down all of that stuff, every regional HQ, any bit of regional differences, as much as possible, in order to keep profits going with falling sales. We had a good thing going with GW in the US, until they decided to just do the minimum to get profit.

Renegade
01-15-2015, 12:31 PM
While excessive prices are certainly a problem for GW in the United States, I think it is their business model in regards to community outreach and perception that is hurting them even more.

The prices aren't entirely the same no, but close enough. But you have just stated what I've been arguing for two years now. Games Workshop doesn't do market research or appear willing to adapt their business model in the United States to fit cultural differences. This is, to be blunt, idiotic. When in Rome you do as the Romans do. You adapt your practices for the area in which you are selling. To refuse to do so obstinately is simply bad business and kind of stupid.

You mean that GW have a take it of leave it approach? The approach may not be perfect, but they are making sales, so I am guessing there is a lot more to it then prices and adapting the sales pitch.


You really have a way with words don't you? We Americans are bellicose and Europe (aside from the U.K. I assume) is a cesspit? :D That will make you friends and influence people. Of course, you are only enunciating the mindset and approach that Games Workshop itself is taking with all these other countries, i.e. what they themselves admit makes up 70% of their sales. :D Somehow, I'm not certain insulting or antagonizing 70% of your customers ranks up there with great ideas. It sounds more like one of Baldric's cunning plans.


The continent is an economic basket case and has been since 2008, a cesspit is a fair and honest description. GW could probably do better with a sales drive in the middle east than with the euro countries currently.


This you are going to have to explain. How exactly are the elections and referendums in the U.K. tied to Games Workshop refusing to alter its course (no matter the clear damage to its bottom line)? I'm not certain I see how any shifts would alter their fundamental position in the current niche market. :D

GW are based in the UK so changes to government (things like tax and regulations) have a greater impact on the running of the business. There is one main party that is tax and spend and another that wants to have a referendum on the UK remaining in the EU but would be much the same as the current government., then there are the various smaller parties that pull to the left or right.

If the former party get in or form a coalition with other left leaning parties, then GW will have to assess where things are going anew with its main sales and company base, a period of 3 to 6 months of holding the current line would be justifiable.

If the latter get in or form some type of agreement with other right leaning parties then there will probably be a referendum on the UK's EU membership, most UK based companies will probably hold the line till they know what is going on with that.

Clear enough?

Loken
01-16-2015, 10:52 AM
I just wanted to go on record and be as specific as possible. :D I've made lots of predictions in the past and when they come out correct, some have tried to frame me as being too general. I've been very specific. I predicted the last report would be a drop. I predicted this report would be a drop (I even said it is the U.S. market where they are losing the most sales). I predicted very accurately the outcome of their legal case. I suspect (although I have no way of proving it for now) that I evaluated their settlement with Chapterhouse correctly. So I'm on record now. Who else is willing to put their word in black and white?

You know, you probably need to show links to your posts here in order for anyone to take this seriously.

Plus, a lot of us have predicted the same exact thing, so you aren't coming off as a great prognosticator. GW's financial issues have been clear to most with any business acumen. I am an attorney and all of my fellow attorneys pretty much knew the way the CH case would come out.

Caitsidhe
01-17-2015, 09:30 AM
You know, you probably need to show links to your posts here in order for anyone to take this seriously.

I was quite vocal, for example, in the Chapterhouse thread talking about the case right up until the information dropped. I am just going to point you to the search engine for the site which should get you there. You can also go back through my posts.


Plus, a lot of us have predicted the same exact thing, so you aren't coming off as a great prognosticator. GW's financial issues have been clear to most with any business acumen. I am an attorney and all of my fellow attorneys pretty much knew the way the CH case would come out.

I agree with you. Things have been CRYSTAL clear. I have never claimed to be a great prognosticator. I have stated many times that the writing has been clear on the wall. This isn't rocket science. I just wish you and your fellow attorneys has been more vocal here. During the case those of us indicating how it would come out as a failure of Games Workshop to achieve their goals were rather drowned out by the voices talking about how it was going to be a slam dunk for GW. :D Moreover, in the aftermath all of the American judicial system was harpooned here and made fun of as if the ruling were a complete surprise. It would have been nice to have a another attorney (we had one or two) explaining why the outcome was pretty predictable. :D

Loken
01-17-2015, 11:26 AM
I was quite vocal, for example, in the Chapterhouse thread talking about the case right up until the information dropped. I am just going to point you to the search engine for the site which should get you there. You can also go back through my posts.

Seriously? You think I want to spend any time validating your claims? My point is, if you don't supply the information, your claim will get ignored.

Caitsidhe
01-17-2015, 11:49 AM
Seriously? You think I want to spend any time validating your claims? My point is, if you don't supply the information, your claim will get ignored.

The people I was debating with know darn well what I said. :D If you want to look back you can. If you don't, why should I care. :) I simply posted on the record for the next report. Care to place your own wager?

Loken
01-18-2015, 12:22 PM
The people I was debating with know darn well what I said. :D If you want to look back you can. If you don't, why should I care. :) I simply posted on the record for the next report. Care to place your own wager?

You really are missing the point. Boasting you are a great prognosticator is just a waste of time. No one cares what you claim you said. And claiming you foretold GW losses makes you one of hundreds of business minded gamers who read the same data and came to the same conclusion.

Charon
01-18-2015, 12:33 PM
What makes you think that anyone cares what you think is valid and what not?
Didn't see any contribution at all... just showmanship.

Caitsidhe
01-18-2015, 03:08 PM
You really are missing the point. Boasting you are a great prognosticator is just a waste of time. No one cares what you claim you said. And claiming you foretold GW losses makes you one of hundreds of business minded gamers who read the same data and came to the same conclusion.

Perhaps. I may have been boasting or strutting a bit. But that wasn't the point of my post. I'm putting my bet down now for th next report. :) I'm challenging others to do likewise. You in particular seem to keep avoiding that part. I've stated what I think will happen in the next report. Let's hear your "business-minded" estimate. Do you agree with mine? Do you have a different calculation? The difference between you and I, Loken, is that I'm putting it on the line. I will either be right or I will be eating crow. :)

I happen to agree with you that it isn't particularly difficult to read Games Workshop's fortune in the business/legal tea leaves. That is my point. It has always been my point. Just the same, you seem more fixated on me than the topic. I find that a bit odd, but to each their own. Let's hear your analysis of this report that came out and better yet your estimate for the next one. You and me Loken, let see who comes closer. :D

Caitsidhe
06-18-2015, 06:18 PM
I just thought I would pop on and quote myself. :D As you will recall, I predicted (see above) a drop of another 3+%. While the full report isn't out until near the end of July, we have already heard the precursors set to prepare us for <gasp> about a 3% overall loss. This takes into account their assertion that increased online sales has helped offset the loss in retail. I look forward to the full report after which I will prognosticate again. Judging by what has been going on in the United States, I am likely to predict a much larger loss.

daboarder
06-18-2015, 06:32 PM
HAHAHAHA

if GW posted a Loss AND shrinkage....I'd love to read the logicl hoops people would jump through for that one

40kGamer
06-18-2015, 08:37 PM
Only 3%... I was expecting at least 5. :p

Psychosplodge
06-19-2015, 02:24 AM
Don't forget While in store customer service might not be up to what US customers expect, the UK GW's customer service is up there among the best. Every time I've had dealings with them they've been fast and efficient and helpful with minimum hassle.

Caitsidhe
06-19-2015, 06:16 AM
Only 3%... I was expecting at least 5. :p

Well the timing of the reports prevented that. The next one (after the upcoming one released in July) will be between 5-7% loss. That is where the big hit will finally catch up and show. They have already cut to the bone so slash and burn bookkeeping will no longer allow them to pretend to be in the black.

Alaric
06-19-2015, 09:02 AM
HAHAHAHA

if GW posted a Loss AND shrinkage....I'd love to read the logicl hoops people would jump through for that one

You WOULD get off on loss and shrinkage. Thanks for bein a terrible human being, you probably cheer when planes crash.

daboarder
06-19-2015, 03:52 PM
You WOULD get off on loss and shrinkage. Thanks for bein a terrible human being, you probably cheer when planes crash.
ouch man come on.

I truly do hope GW manages to pull their head in well before it becomes an issue. I'd also like certain posters to be made to eat their silly words, all is not rosy in GW financials, nor has it been for a while, but some people just like to keep their head in the sand against the evidence.

Lexington
06-19-2015, 04:21 PM
Here's an article from ICv2 (http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/31808/games-workshop-says-sales-down) on the subject.

Core Info:


The combination of those factors will be roughly a 5% decline in sales through its own stores, a 3% decline in sales to independent retailers, and a 5% growth in mail order sales.

So, mixed results. On the one hand, the bleeding continues to slow. On the other hand...well, they've still lost a lot of blood, and are continuing to bleed, if ever more slowly. I don't imagine it's a comfortable time anywhere in the company.


You WOULD get off on loss and shrinkage.
I've seen weirder porn collections.

Alaric
06-19-2015, 04:36 PM
ouch man come on.

I truly do hope GW manages to pull their head in well before it becomes an issue. I'd also like certain posters to be made to eat their silly words, all is not rosy in GW financials, nor has it been for a while, but some people just like to keep their head in the sand against the evidence.

Generally I don't get bothered by what you write and I respect the fact you have been yourself and not waffled on what you dislike aboot this game...however, have you ever considered the consequences of what would happen if what you so desperately want to happen, actually happened? People would lose jobs, businesses would suffer with unmoveable stock. It would start a chain reaction that would only result in loss. But hey, GW lost and you got what you wanted..right?

I admit also you don't get treated the best, but you also bring a lot of it on yourself by acting the way you do. For my opinion on these financials, I don't want GW to go under cuz im a fanboy, I don't want them to go under because they employ many many people all over the globe and I cant see that as a bad thing. And all the low income earners are usually the first to go. Im friends with the owners of our FLGS and 40k brings them alotta dough, dough that they spend improving their store and keeping their kids fed.

daboarder
06-19-2015, 06:24 PM
Honestly it wouldnt take much for GW to get me on side. Just a little positive community interaction and care about the game. Eddy was a perfect example of how GW should be and they killed that piece of vibrancy off.

Again all i want is GW to fix their attitude before they go under. (So that they dont go under obviously) love the IP to bits.

40kGamer
06-19-2015, 09:17 PM
however, have you ever considered the consequences of what would happen if what you so desperately want to happen, actually happened? People would lose jobs, businesses would suffer with unmoveable stock. It would start a chain reaction that would only result in loss.

Another company would simply fill the void. Someone is always waiting in the wings, chomping at the bit, ready to take over.

grimmas
06-19-2015, 10:24 PM
I think it's time GW admitted that the "restructuring" of their stores hasn't worked, yeah they may be cheaper to run but they aren't selling as much stuff. In fact everything was going fine then they changed to stores and low and behold revenue and profit drops. Nothing else was changed just the stores surely that not just coincidence. I know the Internet wisdom likes to blame price hikes and lack of Internet presence but none of this has an effect however mess with the stores and bang straight away down go the sales.

Of course it's actually far worse they were showing steady growth up until they went to predominantly one person stores, yes loads of business consultants will tell you than the increased overheads of larger stores cut into profits but it seems in the case of GW it also craps up your sales figures.

DarkLink
06-19-2015, 10:37 PM
You WOULD get off on loss and shrinkage. Thanks for bein a terrible human being, you probably cheer when planes crash.

Obviously comparing a company posting poor financials with the possibility of a gradual decline into bankruptcy is at least as horrible as dozens and dozens of people dying.

Caitsidhe
06-20-2015, 06:43 AM
You WOULD get off on loss and shrinkage. Thanks for bein a terrible human being, you probably cheer when planes crash.

Hyperbole much? You sound like one of those people who immediately reaches for the German bad guys of WWII when people disagree with you. Most of the people on this site play the game and are fans of the IP. Most of them, at one time or another, liked the rules and even <gasp> the company itself. Most of them, and I think daboarder would be one, would prefer to see the company reclaim its beloved spot in all our hearts. Most would prefer they become financially stable and stop bleeding from a thousand cuts. Your inability to read the intention and clear meaning in the posts of others does you no service.

All that being said, Games Workshop isn't a victim. You should understand that. The buck stops with them. Nobody is doing this to them. Comments by unhappy consumers isn't a conspiracy to drive them out of business that is slowly and unfairly grinding them into the dust. It isn't as if they need the help. There is a growing discontent with their pricing structure, community interaction, and bad rules. That's it. Unfortunately, when you take away pricing, community interaction, and solid rules, the only thing the company has left to sell us is good looking models. They have that. It isn't enough. Their stubborn refusal to right their sinking ship (however slowly it is taking on water) has to do with a Captain who is literally drunk at the helm and a crew too afraid of him to mutiny. Without solid rules and ease of play, the community dies. That is the long and the short of it. We "might" accept GW's price structure if the game was good enough, but it isn't. We might accept their horrible community interaction if the game was good enough or the pricing better. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Some people collect the models for the simple joy of collecting and painting. There aren't enough of such people to support Games Workshop. A larger (vastly larger) portion of the consumers collect to play the game. They continue in the hobby for love of the game. If you undermine that love by making the very act of playing the game a serious pain in the rear, you will see those consumers flirting with pretty new things. Their love will be forgotten and replaced. This is true because when it comes right down to it, we play for the love "of games" not love of "the game." Do you follow? We are gamers, not Games Workshop groupies. It is something they refuse to accept. They are the Justin Bieber of the gaming world and honestly believe that we all still love them, rather than seeing them for exactly what they have become.

grimmas
06-20-2015, 08:34 AM
Good god how did any of you people manage to survive the post LoTR crash, I would have thought GW posting a loss would made your heads explode. Still it's not about us the vets it's all about the kids and has been since about 1990 (of there about) and they've hamstrung their ability to recuit them.

daboarder
06-20-2015, 04:04 PM
Good god how did any of you people manage to survive the post LoTR crash, I would have thought GW posting a loss would made your heads explode. Still it's not about us the vets it's all about the kids and has been since about 1990 (of there about) and they've hamstrung their ability to recuit them.

actually theres a brilliant post on the front page that very nicely illustrates why BOTH are critical to the health of the game, because the vets drive the community and recruit those new kids.

grimmas
06-21-2015, 03:18 AM
actually theres a brilliant post on the front page that very nicely illustrates why BOTH are critical to the health of the game, because the vets drive the community and recruit those new kids.

Yeah it's just usual over statement of our importance, they've already had our money there just isn't enough of to make enough purchases, sure we can be a tool in helping recruitment but it's still about the new people. Trust me when you step back and really look at the figures that are available, vet reliant games and companies don't do anywhere as well I terms of sales. Thing is though do we really need GW massaging our egos as vets I think we have more fun being left to do our own thing? May be its a cultural thing but I realy rather like the fact we get left to do our own thing, GW forums and discussions are always far better than the ones about other companies/products because of it, and it seems to inspire creativity in ways others can't match.

DarkLink
06-21-2015, 03:01 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to discount that. Not only do veterans recruit new people, but most of the long-term vets I know just keep spending money. And since they've been around a while, that means they're adults with steady incomes, so their purchases can be very, very large. I've know people to buy new armies on a whim, especially now that allies are a thing. One veteran who buys 3 Imperial Knights is worth ten kids who buy a single tactical squad, especially since it was probably that vet who convinced those ten kids to play.

daboarder
06-21-2015, 03:40 PM
yup, also, Vets can be dangerous to a company, even if you ascribe to the belief that they do not contribute to the market directly, how many games that piss off the vets survive? Almost none, happens in computer gaming a lot, if you piss off your fan base they will go out of their way to inform the new kids NOT to choose your product and you will see a decrease in sale.

grimmas
06-22-2015, 01:07 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to discount that. Not only do veterans recruit new people, but most of the long-term vets I know just keep spending money. And since they've been around a while, that means they're adults with steady incomes, so their purchases can be very, very large. I've know people to buy new armies on a whim, especially now that allies are a thing. One veteran who buys 3 Imperial Knights is worth ten kids who buy a single tactical squad, especially since it was probably that vet who convinced those ten kids to play.

Ok but I think you're reasoning under a fallacy there, those 10 new people aren't just buying tactical squads they're also buying glue, paint, brushes and clippers, add that up and suddenly your making a lot more than the vet buying 3 Knights (who already has all the extras). Consider also the the vet has a job, a wife, children these eat into his time it could easily be 3 months before he finishes off those knights and buys more. Those new kids will be done in a week or so and be back for more. As for deposable income those children and wife are expensive as is his house, car and family holidays. The kids on the other hand have their pocket money, may be a paper round and the bank of mum and dad (and quite possibly 2 sets of grandparents) and all that money is for leisure. Yes those kids will drop off over the period of 4 years (remember the most common customer age group for GW is 12-16) but together they will to be buying in greater volume the your one vet, and of course one should be recruiting more. Of course of of those ten may become a vet himself they have to come from somewhere.

As for vets aiding recruiting the kids, grown men hanging around in what amounts to a toy shop talking to children is a bad in real life as it sounds on paper. They can help though by playing games, painting models and having a good time (which why good stores are important)

While I would very much agree with Daboarder that pissing off your customer base is a bad idea, I disagree on what that customer base is. For GW it's kids aged 12-16 not vets. By way of evidence I'll use the last 2 years from GW where we've seen revenue and profit drop. What have they changed, there's been no large price hike, tournament support, specialist games and the like have been gone for much longer than that. What we have seen is their retail staff being butchered which means far less capacity in store and a lack of ability to support independents, both of which are primary recruitment points. And low and behold we've seen a drop. If you look even closer you'll see a rise in, mail order sales and a big increase in FW sales. The former definitely being for at least existing custom and the latter being a product very much aimed at the vets. If these are rising, despite what the Internet would have you believe, surely vets are happy and buying away. It's retail that's showing the biggest drop and that's where you recruit your new players and that's what GW has buggered up. Yes the stores are expensive but they are the cost of doing business. Just look at the difference in size between GW and everyone else. When you really get down to it the only actual difference between GW and the other companies is that they have their own stores.

If I haven't bored you all enough another time I explain why the "competition" from other games isn't necessarily a bad thing for GW 😳

Lexington
06-22-2015, 01:42 PM
While I would very much agree with Daboarder that pissing off your customer base is a bad idea, I disagree on what that customer base is. For GW it's kids aged 12-16 not vets. By way of evidence I'll use the last 2 years from GW where we've seen revenue and profit drop. What have they changed, there's been no large price hike, tournament support, specialist games and the like have been gone for much longer than that.
This analysis misses the fact that, during the time frame in which the initial sales drop occurred, there were some fairly massive price increases from GW - not only on existing products, but in the price of new products relative to equivalent merchandise. That's when the bottom fell out on GW's profit machine. Since then, they've halted the price increases on existing products, but the price point for new models, relative to what the consumer gets, continues to rise, even if not as notably. The game itself has also encouraged the purchase of more models, in the form of detachments and squadron rules. This doesn't seem to be solving the problem, and I think it's because GW has engineered its entire business model in a way that it's not possible to really fix the issue, even if they did understand it.

Caitsidhe
06-23-2015, 04:54 AM
While I would very much agree with Daboarder that pissing off your customer base is a bad idea, I disagree on what that customer base is. For GW it's kids aged 12-16 not vets.

Games Workshop certainly seems to be "believe" children are their customer base. You, also, seem to buy into that nonsense. Children can't afford Games Workshop products. That is the long and the short of it. The only children who could buy into the hobby in a feasible way have adults who are extremely well off paying for it, or adults who happens to be "Vets" trying to bring their kids in on the hobby.

I will grant that there do appear to be more children playing the game in England (I don't know about the rest of Europe) but in the United States it is played almost exclusively by adults. Every now and again, a player will bring his kid along to watch or pretend to play. In the United States, a respectable portion of the business, it is adults playing the game. They aren't recruiting kids. Moreover, the very way recruitment in the U.S. works is different. So unless Games Workshop plans to cede the U.S. market they will have to admit they have a problem and start grappling with the issue. The new business model isn't working over here. It is driving the "Vets" to other games in droves, and they are not being replaced.

daboarder
06-23-2015, 05:04 AM
given their constant insistance on starting major releases pre-orders on the 4th of july, I could see GW being stupid enough to cede the US market

Houghten
06-23-2015, 05:33 AM
How can it be a "constant insistence" when pre-order day only falls on 4th July one in every seven years?

grimmas
06-23-2015, 05:51 AM
Games Workshop certainly seems to be "believe" children are their customer base. You, also, seem to buy into that nonsense. Children can't afford Games Workshop products. That is the long and the short of it. The only children who could buy into the hobby in a feasible way have adults who are extremely well off paying for it, or adults who happens to be "Vets" trying to bring their kids in on the hobby.

I will grant that there do appear to be more children playing the game in England (I don't know about the rest of Europe) but in the United States it is played almost exclusively by adults. Every now and again, a player will bring his kid along to watch or pretend to play. In the United States, a respectable portion of the business, it is adults playing the game. They aren't recruiting kids. Moreover, the very way recruitment in the U.S. works is different. So unless Games Workshop plans to cede the U.S. market they will have to admit they have a problem and start grappling with the issue. The new business model isn't working over here. It is driving the "Vets" to other games in droves, and they are not being replaced.

The new business isn't working anywhere that's my point. I would point out that the GW makes roughly the same in the U.S. as it does in the UK but the population of the U.S. is six times bigger. If it us as you say over there and I'm willing to believe you sounds like reallying on vets isn't a better plan there either. They need to do what they did in the UK and build their own customer base instead of relying on a (comparitively) tiny, capricious existing one. Of course they could just do as Daboarder suggests and close their operations and just sell via independents and mail order like all the other games over there probably probably won't effect their profit much, they'd make less revenue but their profit margin will be higher.

Still if they want to make big money they need to replicate what they did in the UK and that doesn't involve pandering the the whim of every vet.

Caitsidhe
06-23-2015, 06:05 AM
If it us as you say over there and I'm willing to believe you sounds like reallying on vets isn't a better plan there either.

Actually, the largest growth Games Workshop had in the American market was based on community interaction and (like it or not) competitive play. The game play was less convoluted, the market keyed on local gaming stores which were the hub for tournaments. They had growth, good profits, and recruitment. It was only when they went to EXACTLY the plan you seem to be endorsing that their ship started to sink. It isn't a children's game in the United States. It will NEVER be a children's game in the United States. :D Cultural differences.


They need to do what they did in the UK and build their own customer base instead of relying on a (comparitively) tiny, capricious existing one. Of course they could just do as Daboarder suggests and close their operations and just sell via independents and mail order like all the other games over there probably probably won't effect their profit much, they'd make less revenue but their profit margin will be higher.

This won't solve their problem. They market a "game" and without growth in the community, i.e. the people who actually play, they hit market saturation and they die. Like it or not, they need to go back to what worked for them. They need to get back to a tighter rules set (improved) with ease of play and better balance (they never had great). They rules need to abide the logistics of the tournament. They need to support the tournament community with both prize support and marketing. Moreover, they need to take the tournament environment in house entirely or as much as possible. Sports grow. Hobbies are niche.


Still if they want to make big money they need to replicate what they did in the UK and that doesn't involve pandering the the whim of every vet.

No. You are making the exact same call they did and it is the WRONG call. The UK is not the rest of the world. If they are happy only selling their product and making a profit in the UK, then by all means they need to keep trying to use a square block in a round hole. If they want to increase their profits, they need to design their product and marketing to work in different situations. It is my personal belief that Games Workshop cannot survive long term without their global market. I don't even think they would survive losing the American one.

Erik Setzer
06-23-2015, 07:53 AM
So unless Games Workshop plans to cede the U.S. market they will have to admit they have a problem and start grappling with the issue.

They pretty much have ceded it.

In the US, most gamers prefer to buy at their FLGS (where they play games), or through some web store (where they can get a discount), or both. They'll play any game that looks fun and can get some players (no "national pride" in a game system).

Games Workshop makes it incredibly hard for web stores to even get started selling GW products. They also have a large portion of their range as "web store exclusive," so you can't get those products through an FLGS. You have to take money away from the local store and send it direct to Games Workshop.

So, basically, GW has set things up so that they're directly competing against, and trying to cut off, the two ways most Americans get their gaming products.

Their process might work in a state-sized country saturated with company stores selling a locally-made game that can play off of national pride. In the US? Not so much. Last year North American sales were down. I don't expect this year to be much better.

- - - Updated - - -


Actually, the largest growth Games Workshop had in the American market was based on community interaction and (like it or not) competitive play. The game play was less convoluted, the market keyed on local gaming stores which were the hub for tournaments. They had growth, good profits, and recruitment.

Eh... Let's expand on this one a bit.

The "competitive play" wasn't the same kind of WAAC you saw take hold after 'Ard Boyz. Grand Tournaments included judging on painting, and often even sportsmanship and army composition. The Rogue Trader Tournament system that GW set up and supported scored Best Overall (the tourney winner) not just on battle points, but points for painting, sportsmanship, and army comp. You could dominate your opponents and not win the tournament. So yes it was "competitive play," but a different style than is often seen these days.

I do remember the Outriders program (and then the attempt to resuscitate it as Pathfinders, which stalled and died). It was a great program, the forerunner of things like PP's Press Gang. Gamers recruited to teach other gamers and bring people into the fold. It was a good system. But if you're trimming everything you can off a company's budget to keep making profit, community programs made of volunteers are an easy cut.

Path Walker
06-23-2015, 08:08 AM
I <3 usa!!!

Haighus
06-23-2015, 08:42 AM
I <3 usa!!!
?

Er.... because money? Whatever else there is to consider, GW would lose a lot of cash pulling out of the US.

EDIT: just noticed the mod edit of PW's post. Lol.

Erik Setzer
06-23-2015, 08:54 AM
Um... wow. I knew PW was a troll, but that's extreme trolling there.

In the case he's being serious (which would make me sad, because that also suggests someone who is extremely ignorant):

The US market is huge. Yeah, you can't just say, "Hey, this is a British made product, so buy it regardless of quality!" No, you have to have a quality product. If you do, you can make a LOT of money selling to customers in the US. It's a big market for various types of gaming.

grimmas
06-23-2015, 09:17 AM
Actually, the largest growth Games Workshop had in the American market was based on community interaction and (like it or not) competitive play. The game play was less convoluted, the market keyed on local gaming stores which were the hub for tournaments. They had growth, good profits, and recruitment. It was only when they went to EXACTLY the plan you seem to be endorsing that their ship started to sink. It isn't a children's game in the United States. It will NEVER be a children's game in the United States. :D Cultural differences.



This won't solve their problem. They market a "game" and without growth in the community, i.e. the people who actually play, they hit market saturation and they die. Like it or not, they need to go back to what worked for them. They need to get back to a tighter rules set (improved) with ease of play and better balance (they never had great). They rules need to abide the logistics of the tournament. They need to support the tournament community with both prize support and marketing. Moreover, they need to take the tournament environment in house entirely or as much as possible. Sports grow. Hobbies are niche.



No. You are making the exact same call they did and it is the WRONG call. The UK is not the rest of the world. If they are happy only selling their product and making a profit in the UK, then by all means they need to keep trying to use a square block in a round hole. If they want to increase their profits, they need to design their product and marketing to work in different situations. It is my personal belief that Games Workshop cannot survive long term without their global market. I don't even think they would survive losing the American one.

They've never applied the same business model in the U.S. as the UK, we know this simply because they never had more stores in the U.S. than the UK and they'd need many many more to achieve the same thing, so basically there's no evidence that it wouldn't work because they haven't done it(of course there's no proof it would work other than the fact it did in the UK). I don't know why but I suspect there may have been some legislation either in the U.S. or UK that prevented them, Tax regs may be.

Id be interested to know what the cultural differences that stops children in the U.S. playing with toy soldiers but I suspect it's the same thing that stopped them pre-nineties in the UK miserable obstructive "vets", who incidental also waxed lyrical about how children would NEVER play. If you market them to adolescents they'll play and more importantly buy.

That said profit did in fact rise in the U.S. last year so may be they do in fact know more about there own business than either of us (3.3m to 3.7m or 11%) that's right revenue down but profit up in the U.S.

Oh and historically they've employed an American to run their American operation, they certainly did when I worked for them, may be part of the problem isn't lack of understanding of the culture but rather a slavish believe that it's like you suggest.

grimmas
06-23-2015, 09:30 AM
Um... wow. I knew PW was a troll, but that's extreme trolling there.

In the case he's being serious (which would make me sad, because that also suggests someone who is extremely ignorant):

The US market is huge. Yeah, you can't just say, "Hey, this is a British made product, so buy it regardless of quality!" No, you have to have a quality product. If you do, you can make a LOT of money selling to customers in the US. It's a big market for various types of gaming.

It could be huge but it isn't. In the case of GW its on average never been bigger than the UK and we've already discussed what I believed about the size of other games there, much smaller. That's the thing the U.S. should be a massive market but isn't not even for the homegrown tournament friendly, nice to their mum companies. It even looks like on paper there's a similar number of wargamers in the UK as there is in the U.S. that's ridiculess. Why and I promise I'll stop soon, THEY'RE FOCUSING ON THE WRONG PROPLE

40kGamer
06-23-2015, 09:55 AM
It could be huge but it isn't. In the case of GW its on average never been bigger than the UK and we've already discussed what I believed about the size of other games there, much smaller. That's the thing the U.S. should be a massive market but isn't not even for the homegrown tournament friendly, nice to their mum companies. It even looks like on paper there's a similar number of wargamers in the UK as there is in the U.S. that's ridiculess. Why and I promise I'll stop soon, THEY'RE FOCUSING ON THE WRONG PROPLE

Actually I don't think it has as much to do with focusing on the wrong people as it does with the fact that US people have less leisure time and therefore pursue less hobby interests. Work hours consume the bulk of one's productive life in the states and even kids invest a lot of their free time in prepping for work/college... if they don't they'll end up on the public payroll and won't have the dollars for hobbies anyhow. GW has many options but two of the more obvious ways to approach their sales decline are:

1) Recruit new people... doesn't matter if they're kids or not although younger is better in that they have a longer potential customer lifespan.
2) Get the existing customers to buy more stuff.

1 is required for long term health but 2 can prop up profits for a good while. 1 also requires a long and large investment in demo games and ways to 'touch' new customers. How many people walk into a GW or FLGS store cold? Not very many. Most have to be 'recruited' in some fashion to even get them in the door to play a demo game. I do see an obvious benefit of having young players as this expands their potential customer pool through the fact that all the young people are stuck together in school all year and everyone tends to know what everyone else is doing. Nice free marketing to a large young audience.

Recruitment happens in the local market through the FLGS... The GW store is just not that good. With one person running the place they have to lock up for lunch or even to go to the bathroom. Plus their hours are super restricted and they are in a high rent mall area where I presume they are trying to reach out to young customers. Add to this that the newest manager (3rd one in a year) knows next to nothing about the games they are supposedly selling and you can imagine why the place is a complete joke in the community. I'm very interested to see what direction they move in now given that they've already cut themselves to the bone.

Erik Setzer
06-23-2015, 10:33 AM
They've never applied the same business model in the U.S. as the UK, we know this simply because they never had more stores in the U.S. than the UK and they'd need many many more to achieve the same thing, so basically there's no evidence that it wouldn't work because they haven't done it(of course there's no proof it would work other than the fact it did in the UK). I don't know why but I suspect there may have been some legislation either in the U.S. or UK that prevented them, Tax regs may be.

Id be interested to know what the cultural differences that stops children in the U.S. playing with toy soldiers but I suspect it's the same thing that stopped them pre-nineties in the UK miserable obstructive "vets", who incidental also waxed lyrical about how children would NEVER play. If you market them to adolescents they'll play and more importantly buy.

That said profit did in fact rise in the U.S. last year so may be they do in fact know more about there own business than either of us (3.3m to 3.7m or 11%) that's right revenue down but profit up in the U.S.

Oh and historically they've employed an American to run their American operation, they certainly did when I worked for them, may be part of the problem isn't lack of understanding of the culture but rather a slavish believe that it's like you suggest.


Trying to hit on a few of the above points here:

There's not legislation stopping them from market saturation in the US similar to the UK. It's just simple numbers. The UK is the size of a US state. At one point, IIRC, they had over 100 store in the UK alone. At the very least, dozens. The cost of trying to saturate the US like they did the UK would be insane. There's no way they could afford to do that.

And it just wouldn't work, especially right now. GW stores only sell 40K, WFB, and LOTR/Hobbit (for now, until that's gone). They don't even sell the many licensed games using their settings. And you can't play anything in the store that the store doesn't sell, including older GW games like Blood Bowl, Necromunda, even Mordheim (which could use modern figures and which they at one point had the rules for online). So you're extremely limited in what you can play.

Attempts at monopolizing a market just don't work so well in the US. People like choice. Try to crowd out all the other games and stores, and people will get annoyed.

I haven't seen kids discouraged from playing games by the gamers, and the ones who get in are embraced by the vets. The bigger problem I often see is that the parents of said kids look at the prices on these toy soldiers and get turned off on it. GW might have forgotten that we're playing with toys here, but parents remember that, and don't feel like paying collectible prices for toys. Sticker shock has turned off many a parent. Can't say I blame them.

"Profit" likely rose because they were cutting more corners in the US, so they could keep profits going while sales fell. If sales continue to fall, profit will also fall.

grimmas
06-23-2015, 10:40 AM
I like what you're saying 40kGamer and I agree that the One Man Stores are pants, thing is when they had good stores they did get people in cold, busy store packed with people having fun, people will stick there head especially if those people happen to look like their peer group. I would agree that most people do get some mention from friends ect, before though. What you say about schools is spot in when GW actually had staff they used to go to schools and run event just for that reason.

Interesting what you say about leisure time in the U.S. very pertinent as well thanks.

40kGamer
06-23-2015, 10:51 AM
I like what you're saying 40kGamer and I agree that the One Man Stores are pants, thing is when they had good stores they did get people in cold, busy store packed with people having fun, people will stick there head especially if those people happen to look like their peer group. I would agree that most people do get some mention from friends ect, before though. What you say about schools is spot in when GW actually had staff they used to go to schools and run event just for that reason.

Interesting what you say about leisure time in the U.S. very pertinent as well thanks.

I've definitely aged out of GW's target demographic but I still love the setting they created and the products they offer. As a long time hobby junkie I don't expect them to put much effort into 'me' as I'm already invested in their product and it's easier to maintain a relationship vs create a new one. I do wish they put a more effort into the game design balance and I'm unhappy that they don't support or license the side games like Epic. I would absolutely love to see Epic models brought up to date with all the 40k goodness they offer today... that would make my head explode! :D

Psychosplodge
06-24-2015, 03:11 AM
given their constant insistance on starting major releases pre-orders on the 4th of july, I could see GW being stupid enough to cede the US market

Because 4th of July is just another day anyone outside the US or does it mean something in Oz?

Caitsidhe
06-24-2015, 04:14 AM
Because 4th of July is just another day anyone outside the US or does it mean something in Oz?

I don't think the 4th of July should have any special significance outside of the United States, nor does anyone else. However, if you are a business selling toys to Americans it is probably not the best weekend to launch orders on a product. Americans are distracted, not home, or otherwise engaged. It just costs you money. It would be like insisting on running your new television show opposite the Super Bowl. :D

This is just basic marketing, i.e. commonsense. Since there is no special reason in other countries that suggests to do it on that day, why do it then at all? Ultimately none of us really care, but it is an interesting choice to cite in regards to their regular urge to try and force a square block into a round hole. I don't think there is any nefarious reason they selected the date. I just think it can be accounted by bad business sense.

Psychosplodge
06-24-2015, 04:25 AM
See I'd have thought it would work better for you tbh as you're more likely to be at home and able to order?

Mr Mystery
06-24-2015, 05:42 AM
11 July is pretty much at the start of the UK Summer Holidays - 6 weeks of no-school, and parents desperately trying to find something to keep their 'little darlings/sods' busy.

Not a bad time to launch a new edition overall - you'd be surprised how much money parents are willing to throw around if it means someone else looking after their kids.

Denzark
06-24-2015, 07:39 AM
Actually, I hope DABoarder is correct and there is reduced sales and shrinkage - by which we presumably mean losses are starting to reduce the overall worth of the company.

The reason I hope this is the case is because losses are the only thing that will result in a change of business methodology. And then only if said losses look to be significant and enduring.

DAB and others may write me off as a GW apologist and I am not - my relationship with GW is complex but at the end of the day I need nothing off them now except rules and I choose to accept their rules-writing standard as it has not reached my breaking point of their silliness outweighing my 25 years of investment in 40K.

However I remain utterly convinced that without losses they will not change how they do business and the reason they won't change for things us 'armchair economists' may think would make them larger than MacDonalds is a matter of how averse to risk they are.

As an example: Current level of community engagement - 3% loss. Turn back on your facebook page and lose how many sales because Mrs Bloggins, mum of Little Timmy, doesn't want to see the utter autistic bile produced by geeks protected by the anonymity of the interweb, when she googles 'space marine' and gets to that page.

Defenestratus
06-24-2015, 07:41 AM
See I'd have thought it would work better for you tbh as you're more likely to be at home and able to order?

Outside of Thanksgiving, 4th of July is probably a "big 3" travel holiday. We all pack in our cars and drive to the beach, lake, mountains or family members' homes. Usually because a lot of people have time off work and thus get an excuse to have a long weekend.

Personally I'm driving about 250 miles to my Aunt and Uncle's place on a lake. They don't even get cell coverage up there in their neck of the woods!

Denzark
06-24-2015, 07:50 AM
Outside of Thanksgiving, 4th of July is probably a "big 3" travel holiday. We all pack in our cars and drive to the beach, lake, mountains or family members' homes. Usually because a lot of people have time off work and thus get an excuse to have a long weekend.

Personally I'm driving about 250 miles to my Aunt and Uncle's place on a lake. They don't even get cell coverage up there in their neck of the woods!

Sounds blissful.

Psychosplodge
06-24-2015, 07:58 AM
Outside of Thanksgiving, 4th of July is probably a "big 3" travel holiday. We all pack in our cars and drive to the beach, lake, mountains or family members' homes. Usually because a lot of people have time off work and thus get an excuse to have a long weekend.

Personally I'm driving about 250 miles to my Aunt and Uncle's place on a lake. They don't even get cell coverage up there in their neck of the woods!

Ah that makes sense

Erik Setzer
06-24-2015, 08:15 AM
See I'd have thought it would work better for you tbh as you're more likely to be at home and able to order?

Nope. Not at all. The local store is going to try to do a barbeque or something (outside the store, of course) in order to try to get people to even come to the store to pre-order. Most people are somewhere with their friends and/or family, having a party, picnics, grilling, drinking, and watching and/or setting off fireworks. Ordering a game is very, very low on their order of importance that day.

Erik Setzer
06-24-2015, 08:25 AM
Because 4th of July is just another day anyone outside the US or does it mean something in Oz?

Well, in the UK, I'd imagine they know why it's important here... and I can't imagine a company that sees itself as a "British" company caring much whether they heavily inconvenience Americans on that day.

For people who don't seem to know, that's the day Americans celebrate secession from the British Empire and the establishment of the nation as an independent state. Which is kind of a big deal for any country. National pride being what it is in pretty much every country in the world, that makes it a huge day for Americans.

Not sure what the British equivalent would be, or if there even is one. England as a country formed from various groups of people coming together, it didn't secede from another nation. Hasn't been conquered or anything and had to win back its freedom, either.

Psychosplodge
06-24-2015, 08:36 AM
We didn't need one, we gave other countries theirs. :D

But at no point did I ever learn anything through formal education about the US war or secession (took history till 16) but we have a lot more history to wade through. When it comes to the US we learn more about the puritans leaving on the Mayflower to found a colony to practice their version of Christianity(at least when I did it) Other than that we covered Roman Britain, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Normans, skipped to Tudors & Stuarts, then Colonial India. Victorians followed by first world war and ****s.

Alaric
06-24-2015, 09:07 AM
Actually, I hope DABoarder is correct and there is reduced sales and shrinkage - by which we presumably mean losses are starting to reduce the overall worth of the company.

The reason I hope this is the case is because losses are the only thing that will result in a change of business methodology. And then only if said losses look to be significant and enduring.

DAB and others may write me off as a GW apologist and I am not - my relationship with GW is complex but at the end of the day I need nothing off them now except rules and I choose to accept their rules-writing standard as it has not reached my breaking point of their silliness outweighing my 25 years of investment in 40K.

However I remain utterly convinced that without losses they will not change how they do business and the reason they won't change for things us 'armchair economists' may think would make them larger than MacDonalds is a matter of how averse to risk they are.

As an example: Current level of community engagement - 3% loss. Turn back on your facebook page and lose how many sales because Mrs Bloggins, mum of Little Timmy, doesn't want to see the utter autistic bile produced by geeks protected by the anonymity of the interweb, when she googles 'space marine' and gets to that page.

Sums up my view as well. Companies usually learn when they are punched in the pocket book.

Filthy Casual
06-24-2015, 09:19 AM
Preorders open on the 4th and continue for that week, the game launches on the 11th.

They've prioritised a launch that is most beneficial to their biggest and most important market, the UK.

40kGamer
06-24-2015, 09:50 AM
Personally I'm driving about 250 miles to my Aunt and Uncle's place on a lake. They don't even get cell coverage up there in their neck of the woods!

No cell coverage is the only way to take time off anymore. I look for the most God forsaken mountain terrain available and if that fails feed the damn phone to the bears. :p

July 4th isn't a big deal for me one way or another but I typically prefer to wander in and get stuff after the initial blitzkreig anyhow.

- - - Updated - - -


Not sure what the British equivalent would be, or if there even is one. England as a country formed from various groups of people coming together, it didn't secede from another nation. Hasn't been conquered or anything and had to win back its freedom, either.

Only the Native Americans could hope to win back any freedom here Erik. The rest of us Neo-Europeans/Asians are the occupying force.

Erik Setzer
06-24-2015, 09:50 AM
We didn't need one, we gave other countries theirs. :D

But at no point did I ever learn anything through formal education about the US war or secession (took history till 16) but we have a lot more history to wade through. When it comes to the US we learn more about the puritans leaving on the Mayflower to found a colony to practice their version of Christianity(at least when I did it) Other than that we covered Roman Britain, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Normans, skipped to Tudors & Stuarts, then Colonial India. Victorians followed by first world war and ****s.


This continent has the Native Americans (glossed over because it's uncomfortable), and then the US's history. Which still has to cover the "Revolution" (not an accurate title, more a secession), possibly some wars after that and the early government, the "Civil War" (also an inaccurate title, as it was two nations fighting), some more wars, World War I, World War II, lots more wars, civil rights movement...

But in school it seems they're instructed to just touch on the founding (somewhat), jump through the "Civil War" quickly, barely touch on the two World Wars, and spend a lot of time on the civil rights movement and newer stuff. Doesn't really help students learn why the country was founded or any of that. That's one year's classes. There's another year for "World History," which rushes through the highlights of the world about as quickly as you'd expect for a 36-week course.

I'd rather have had more history courses than trig and calc. Much more interesting and useful.

40kGamer
06-24-2015, 09:51 AM
We didn't need one, we gave other countries theirs. :D

But at no point did I ever learn anything through formal education about the US war or secession (took history till 16) but we have a lot more history to wade through. When it comes to the US we learn more about the puritans leaving on the Mayflower to found a colony to practice their version of Christianity(at least when I did it) Other than that we covered Roman Britain, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Normans, skipped to Tudors & Stuarts, then Colonial India. Victorians followed by first world war and ****s.

The down side of having so many centuries of history to cover I presume.

Lexington
06-24-2015, 10:27 AM
I think the idea that a July 4th pre-order launch is some sort of disaster, or evidence of incompetence on GW's part, is a little far-fetched. Pre-orders are for existing fans, people who are already interested in your product. If these customers are interested in Age of Sigmar, then by God, some travel holiday won't be stopping them. The actual launch, which is probably more important given GW's need to interest new customers, is the next week. From a calendar standpoint, they're fine.

Now, Age of Sigmar being the success they need to save the Fantasy line? I'd say they're a little less fine there.

Filthy Casual
06-24-2015, 10:40 AM
In my experience, people will use any excuse to try and bash Games Workshop.

People get very oddly hostile when there are large companies involved in their hobby, same with any hobby really.

Haighus
06-24-2015, 12:07 PM
The down side of having so many centuries of history to cover I presume.

Indeed :D I'm currently sitting in a house older than the USA as a nation. Very true with British history tending to gloss over that period a lot though. I think it is something to do with us being fairly uncomfortable talking about the time period where we basically enslaved a quarter of the planet, and more preferring to focus on the times before and after that. History lessons tend to go up to around Queen Elizabeth and the Stuarts up to the Civil war, and then skip a chunk until the Victorians. Sometimes Napoleon is included. Also very poor at talking about most of medieval Britain too, jumps from the Normans to the Wars of the Roses in my experience (even though I think the history in the middle is some of the most interesting of all).

Erik Setzer
06-24-2015, 12:34 PM
In my experience, people will use any excuse to try and bash Games Workshop.

People get very oddly hostile when there are large companies involved in their hobby, same with any hobby really.

For some of us, the hostility is due to the company's changing practices being annoying at best and harmful at times, especially to the game stores we love. They scrapped every other game to focus on their top two, and couldn't even avoid running one of those into the ground so much they had to literally blow up the world and do a hard reset on a 30-year-old game.

In this case, the manager of a GW store is worried and annoyed because he'll have a harder time getting people to the store that weekend. And if those same people order from home rather than through his store, he doesn't get credit for the sales, which could hurt his quota and nudge the store toward being shut down (and costing him his job). It's not an ideal situation for him to be in.

Houghten
06-24-2015, 02:53 PM
In this case, the manager of a GW store is worried and annoyed because he'll have a harder time getting people to the store that weekend. And if those same people order from home rather than through his store, he doesn't get credit for the sales, which could hurt his quota and nudge the store toward being shut down (and costing him his job). It's not an ideal situation for him to be in.

They recently changed that (unless it's just a regional thing, but if it involves website code I don't see why it wouldn't be company-wide): if you choose "ship to my local store" then the order counts towards said store's KPIs.

Defenestratus
06-24-2015, 02:53 PM
Also very poor at talking about most of medieval Britain too, jumps from the Normans to the Wars of the Roses in my experience (even though I think the history in the middle is some of the most interesting of all).

We're getting way off topic here but as a history buff, I find Great Britain's history to be rather interesting. They like to call America the "Melting pot" of cultures but Britain was a major cultural platter serving up everything from Romans, Britons, Saxons, Danes, Scots, Hibernians, Welch, Normans and a sprinkle of Viking... So many different cultures on such a relatively small plot of dirt.

My historical fiction guilty pleasure is pretty much 100% reading about British Dark Ages history. Incredibly fascinating.

Cap'nSmurfs
06-24-2015, 03:20 PM
Have you ever read The Last English King, by Julian Rathbone? I enjoyed it very greatly when I read it about 15 years ago.

Haighus
06-24-2015, 04:11 PM
We're getting way off topic here but as a history buff, I find Great Britain's history to be rather interesting. They like to call America the "Melting pot" of cultures but Britain was a major cultural platter serving up everything from Romans, Britons, Saxons, Danes, Scots, Hibernians, Welch, Normans and a sprinkle of Viking... So many different cultures on such a relatively small plot of dirt.

My historical fiction guilty pleasure is pretty much 100% reading about British Dark Ages history. Incredibly fascinating.
Have recently been reading up on Anglo-Saxon Britain, mainly because I'm building an IF Legion force and have decided to go for a bit of a twist in their Germanic background and make them more like the system in England for some variety. Very interesting stuff, especially with how short lived most of the powerful dynasties were before another rival dynasty took their place. Didn't get much stability until the dominance of Wessex.

Psychosplodge
06-25-2015, 01:54 AM
This continent has the Native Americans (glossed over because it's uncomfortable), and then the US's history. Which still has to cover the "Revolution" (not an accurate title, more a secession), possibly some wars after that and the early government, the "Civil War" (also an inaccurate title, as it was two nations fighting), some more wars, World War I, World War II, lots more wars, civil rights movement...

But in school it seems they're instructed to just touch on the founding (somewhat), jump through the "Civil War" quickly, barely touch on the two World Wars, and spend a lot of time on the civil rights movement and newer stuff. Doesn't really help students learn why the country was founded or any of that. That's one year's classes. There's another year for "World History," which rushes through the highlights of the world about as quickly as you'd expect for a 36-week course.

I'd rather have had more history courses than trig and calc. Much more interesting and useful.

So yours is similar but over an obviously shorter timeframe. That sort of modern history would have been taught somewhere else in the curriculum like PSE or something.




The down side of having so many centuries of history to cover I presume.

Yeah you're never going to really know much of it without actually going and specialising.


We're getting way off topic here but as a history buff, I find Great Britain's history to be rather interesting. They like to call America the "Melting pot" of cultures but Britain was a major cultural platter serving up everything from Romans, Britons, Saxons, Danes, Scots, Hibernians, Welch, Normans and a sprinkle of Viking... So many different cultures on such a relatively small plot of dirt.

My historical fiction guilty pleasure is pretty much 100% reading about British Dark Ages history. Incredibly fascinating.

I think I recall seeing a news piece a couple of months ago that said that there was a study that showed about 5/6 distinct genetic groups that could show where in the country you were from. The divisions iirc lined up with the traditional migrations of Britons, Scots, Anglo-saxons, and Vikings but also surprisingly showed a split in the genetics of north and south wales. It was definitely on the BBC news website but finding it...

grimmas
06-25-2015, 03:55 AM
Just a a thought on the preorder date for Age of Sigmar. For years we've been having legions of US posters gleefully informing us that WFB is dead in their FLGS (or some other daft acronym for a shop) and the last time any figures were released on the subject GW said that the U.S. was responsible for 50% of all 40K sales (this was a few years ago) but seeing as though it's only responsible for between 1/4 and 1/3 of GWs total sales is fairly obvious they ain't selling much WFB there. Why would they make special consideration for what is effectively their smallest/almost nonexistent market for fantasy, if the best date for preorders and release is the 4th and 11th for the UK and Europe ( the correct way to refer to the EU 😉) why compromise that for the tiny existing one in the U.S.

In short may be GW know's their existing customer base and is catering for that. I won't deny there's scope for growth in the U.S. but preorders are for existing customers and it doesn't sound like there really are any in the U.S. in numbers of any note.

Oh and British Dark Age history is brilliant, Roman withdrawal, Saxon invasion, the Heptarchy, Vikings, the rise of Wessex and finally Norman invasion. The best bit is that after that point it doesn't stop it gets even better sod Game of Thrones the history of the Kingdom of England kicks i'ts rear end.

Erik Setzer
06-25-2015, 05:13 AM
They recently changed that (unless it's just a regional thing, but if it involves website code I don't see why it wouldn't be company-wide): if you choose "ship to my local store" then the order counts towards said store's KPIs.

Have to actually pay in-store. And pre-orders aren't held if you don't pay for them in a certain time frame, at least with limited releases.

It's probably the way they pull the info, they likely just look at what's going through the store rather than adding in what's being shipped to the store from the website.

- - - Updated - - -


Just a a thought on the preorder date for Age of Sigmar. For years we've been having legions of US posters gleefully informing us that WFB is dead in their FLGS (or some other daft acronym for a shop) and the last time any figures were released on the subject GW said that the U.S. was responsible for 50% of all 40K sales (this was a few years ago) but seeing as though it's only responsible for between 1/4 and 1/3 of GWs total sales is fairly obvious they ain't selling much WFB there. Why would they make special consideration for what is effectively their smallest/almost nonexistent market for fantasy, if the best date for preorders and release is the 4th and 11th for the UK and Europe ( the correct way to refer to the EU 😉) why compromise that for the tiny existing one in the U.S.

In short may be GW know's their existing customer base and is catering for that. I won't deny there's scope for growth in the U.S. but preorders are for existing customers and it doesn't sound like there really are any in the U.S. in numbers of any note.

Two key points:

1. No one is "gleefully" noting that a game they enjoy is dying locally. For a lot of us, it's rather annoying, as we have multiple armies but it's hard to get a game ever.

2. If your game ended up crashing because of a lack of people buying the products, it's not even remotely a smart idea to launch the reboot in such a way that only targets existing customers and doesn't try to regain old customers as well as bring in new ones.

grimmas
06-25-2015, 05:49 AM
Have to actually pay in-store. And pre-orders aren't held if you don't pay for them in a certain time frame, at least with limited releases.

It's probably the way they pull the info, they likely just look at what's going through the store rather than adding in what's being shipped to the store from the website.

- - - Updated - - -



Two key points:

1. No one is "gleefully" noting that a game they enjoy is dying locally. For a lot of us, it's rather annoying, as we have multiple armies but it's hard to get a game ever.

2. If your game ended up crashing because of a lack of people buying the products, it's not even remotely a smart idea to launch the reboot in such a way that only targets existing customers and doesn't try to regain old customers as well as bring in new ones.


1. I've been to the front page yes they have but it's actually irrelevant the point still stands

2. It's only the pre orders that clash with the 4th July celebrations, and they are very much for existing customers of which the U.S. doesn't appear to have any. Old and New customers are not going to preorder Age of Sigmar on the strength of a White Dwarf promo (or even see it in the case of new people) and a clip or two on YouTube. By the sounds of it they might as well be starting from scratch in the U.S. the preorders aren't going to be good regardless of the day, they'll be playing the long game, if at all.

Erik Setzer
06-25-2015, 07:53 AM
I'm not sure if you're missing the point, or just being intentionally obtuse.

If they marketed correctly, they could drive up hype. That would result in sales.

If they rely on just current players, it doesn't matter if it's US, UK, Oz, wherever. They'll fail to resuscitate a game they killed. Their strongest chance to get sales based on customer loyalty is the UK, where apparently Warhammer is considered a proper British thing, so much so that politicians will skip out on doing their job in order to play a game or two. But the UK is not strong enough to sustain the game.

You seem to be complaining about "anti-GW sentiment" and promoting a strategy that would harm GW at the exact same time. I'm hoping you're just very confused and not trolling.

Psychosplodge
06-25-2015, 08:02 AM
I wouldn't take that as a standard. Politicians seem to avoid doing their job at any opportunity.

40kGamer
06-25-2015, 10:34 AM
Yeah you're never going to really know much of it without actually going and specialising.

The one thing I love even more than Playing games is World military history and Uniformology... ok, ok, so it's really just historical wargaming. Still, studying it helps one gather a broad knowledge of how deep and rich the world's history truly is. Our time on the planet is no more than a footnote in the grand scheme of things.

grimmas
06-25-2015, 11:02 AM
I'm not sure if you're missing the point, or just being intentionally obtuse.

If they marketed correctly, they could drive up hype. That would result in sales.

If they rely on just current players, it doesn't matter if it's US, UK, Oz, wherever. They'll fail to resuscitate a game they killed. Their strongest chance to get sales based on customer loyalty is the UK, where apparently Warhammer is considered a proper British thing, so much so that politicians will skip out on doing their job in order to play a game or two. But the UK is not strong enough to sustain the game.

You seem to be complaining about "anti-GW sentiment" and promoting a strategy that would harm GW at the exact same time. I'm hoping you're just very confused and not trolling.

Not a Troll Erik just one of the few people left willing to enter a discussion with you rather than simply dismiss you out of hand or personally insult you, think on it.

I'm not missing the point, I made the ruddy point, if you don't agree you're welcome to provide some evidence to the contrary.

I'll try again as a gesture of good will. My position is that it doesn't matter if the preorders go up in the U.S. on the 4th of July or any other day because WFB has such a small following in the U.S. there isn't going to be many and wait for it,( and you'd know this if you'd read my comments instead of bursting into racial indignation) they're going to have to play the long game and build/rebuild a presence in the U.S. in a much more systematic way than a splash launch.

If you agree that the existing customer base isn't big enough to support WFB why are these nonexistent preorders people aren't going to be able to make going to spell the death of the re launch?

Oh and the launch isn't even on the 4th is just the first day people can make pre orders the launch is the 11th a week later.

Oh and because everything seems to needs to be about you, you spent the last couple of weeks bleating on about how you aren't going to buy it till you get a good look at it why should any other existing customer be any different. And the only reason nationality has come into this is because the 4th of July is a U.S. Holiday I don't see what you thoughts on this weird British national pride in Warhammer thing you've got going on has any relation to prospective preorders in the U.S.

Erik Setzer
06-25-2015, 11:32 AM
I wouldn't take that as a standard. Politicians seem to avoid doing their job at any opportunity.

Sure, sure... but in America they skip on their job for blackjack and hookers. In England they skip on their job for Warhammer and pub.

Lexington
06-25-2015, 11:33 AM
If they marketed correctly, they could drive up hype. That would result in sales.
Given the marketing available to them (ie., none, outside of their own stores and customers), "hype" isn't something they can build to very effectively, I think. Those that want to buy it will buy it. It's making enough new customers over the product's lifecycle that's going to be more important.

Erik Setzer
06-25-2015, 11:44 AM
If you agree that the existing customer base isn't big enough to support WFB why are these nonexistent preorders people aren't going to be able to make going to spell the death of the re launch?

Skipping all the other stuff. Too much to quote.

Warhammer got run into the ground pretty hard, and not just in the US. In the UK, it might be different, but the UK is not nearly big enough to sustain a game itself.

They can't just rely on existing people to want it. They need other people to want it. And I'm one of those existing players. Heck, I bought an entire new army this year (not counting the additions to Skaven and Undead).

If they did things intelligently and actually marketed, preorders would be a big deal. They are for many games. But people usually want to know something before they'll do a preorder. We're a couple weeks out from AoS launching, and we know nothing about it. We don't even know that it's a game. Or even a gaming product. Or if there's even going to be products released. We have rumors. It's important to make that distinction. All we have are rumors.

Now, the next White Dwarf strongly suggests a new game is coming called Age of Sigmar. The only info in there is that the battles will be even bigger. Well, hmm, that seems to be going the exact opposite direction of where the game needs to go, given that size of armies was a big problem with Warhammer. And the rumors mostly talk about skirmish-level battles, at least as a starting point. So is that comment in WD just hyperbole? Not true? Well, then, we're once again left with no real information about the game, instead having a line that misleads us.

Much better idea: Start 4-5 weeks (at least) before the release. Officially announce the new game, give info on game play and such, show off new models. List the contents of the starter box, and start taking preorders. Spread the word everywhere, on gaming sites and social media. Let those preorders rake in, let the hype build.

But no. It's a one-week window, and it's iffy that we'll even have anything to base a knowledgeable purchasing decision on. That's why I'm holding back.

I've preordered some games before, because I was given a nice preview to let me know what to expect. But dropping over $100 on something I know nothing about? Nope. I'm not made of money.

40kGamer
06-25-2015, 11:44 AM
I'll try again as a gesture of good will. My position is that it doesn't matter if the preorders go up in the U.S. on the 4th of July or any other day because WFB has such a small following in the U.S. there isn't going to be many and wait for it,( and you'd know this if you'd read my comments instead of bursting into racial indignation) they're going to have to play the long game and build/rebuild a presence in the U.S. in a much more systematic way than a splash launch.

If you agree that the existing customer base isn't big enough to support WFB why are these nonexistent preorders people aren't going to be able to make going to spell the death of the re launch?

Oh and the launch isn't even on the 4th is just the first day people can make pre orders the launch is the 11th a week later.

I'm in the US and I think the 4th thing is totally meaningless. WFB doesn't have a strong following in my region like 40k so the release isn't exactly something most folks are getting excited about. If it's a good enough system people (myself included) will gradually migrate to it over the coming months.

Psychosplodge
06-25-2015, 03:01 PM
Sure, sure... but in America they skip on their job for blackjack and hookers. In England they skip on their job for Warhammer and pub.

Well yeah, the hookers will still be available once the pub has shut.

Alaric
06-25-2015, 05:27 PM
Well yeah, the hookers will still be available once the pub has shut.

Always a bright side lol

Erik Setzer
06-25-2015, 10:27 PM
Well yeah, the hookers will still be available once the pub has shut.

I like to imagine they're actually in the pub drinking while it's open.

daboarder
06-25-2015, 11:07 PM
Because 4th of July is just another day anyone outside the US or does it mean something in Oz?

just wanted to chime in and apologise for not replying sooner, I was indisposed.

But as Cait pointed out here.

I don't think the 4th of July should have any special significance outside of the United States, nor does anyone else. However, if you are a business selling toys to Americans it is probably not the best weekend to launch orders on a product. Americans are distracted, not home, or otherwise engaged. It just costs you money. It would be like insisting on running your new television show opposite the Super Bowl.

This is just basic marketing, i.e. commonsense. Since there is no special reason in other countries that suggests to do it on that day, why do it then at all? Ultimately none of us really care, but it is an interesting choice to cite in regards to their regular urge to try and force a square block into a round hole. I don't think there is any nefarious reason they selected the date. I just think it can be accounted by bad business sense.

thats basically the WHY, couple that with the fact that the US is NOT a small market and is GWs second largest market. well its just silly to alienate a large portion of your customer base. And yes 1/4 to 1/3 of your overall sales is a large portion.

On another note, someone asked hwy I stated "consistently" this isn't the first time GW has had a major release during the 4th of july long weekend, I think it was last year they did the a similar thing and it had a majority of people scratching their heads then.

daboarder
06-25-2015, 11:27 PM
DAB and others may write me off as a GW apologist and I am not - my relationship with GW is complex but at the end of the day I need nothing off them now except rules and I choose to accept their rules-writing standard as it has not reached my breaking point of their silliness outweighing my 25 years of investment in 40K.
Sorry to tell you Denzark, but I dont really find you an apologist. thats pretty much reserved for a few posters that shall remain nameless (the hypocritical ones that change the goal posts just so they dont have to be in conflict with what GW is doing)

Denzark
06-26-2015, 09:10 AM
Sorry to tell you Denzark, but I dont really find you an apologist. thats pretty much reserved for a few posters that shall remain nameless (the hypocritical ones that change the goal posts just so they dont have to be in conflict with what GW is doing)

Hussah!

grimmas
06-26-2015, 02:35 PM
Skipping all the other stuff. Too much to quote.

Warhammer got run into the ground pretty hard, and not just in the US. In the UK, it might be different, but the UK is not nearly big enough to sustain a game itself.

They can't just rely on existing people to want it. They need other people to want it. And I'm one of those existing players. Heck, I bought an entire new army this year (not counting the additions to Skaven and Undead).

If they did things intelligently and actually marketed, preorders would be a big deal. They are for many games. But people usually want to know something before they'll do a preorder. We're a couple weeks out from AoS launching, and we know nothing about it. We don't even know that it's a game. Or even a gaming product. Or if there's even going to be products released. We have rumors. It's important to make that distinction. All we have are rumors.

Now, the next White Dwarf strongly suggests a new game is coming called Age of Sigmar. The only info in there is that the battles will be even bigger. Well, hmm, that seems to be going the exact opposite direction of where the game needs to go, given that size of armies was a big problem with Warhammer. And the rumors mostly talk about skirmish-level battles, at least as a starting point. So is that comment in WD just hyperbole? Not true? Well, then, we're once again left with no real information about the game, instead having a line that misleads us.

Much better idea: Start 4-5 weeks (at least) before the release. Officially announce the new game, give info on game play and such, show off new models. List the contents of the starter box, and start taking preorders. Spread the word everywhere, on gaming sites and social media. Let those preorders rake in, let the hype build.

But no. It's a one-week window, and it's iffy that we'll even have anything to base a knowledgeable purchasing decision on. That's why I'm holding back.

I've preordered some games before, because I was given a nice preview to let me know what to expect. But dropping over $100 on something I know nothing about? Nope. I'm not made of money.

Erik we seem to be almost in complete agreement. I'm not sure what I'm saying to make you react so vehemently. You've just written a list of reasons why preorders of AoS aren't going to worth much to GW anywhere (which I agree with) our only difference seem to be my assertion that they going to be the lowest (possibly effectively nothing) in the U.S. and let's face it if they can make some money in the rest of the world they should really take it.

Yes they do need new customers I've definitely mentioned before why I feel this is so crucial and not just for WFB.

I'm not saying you (or anyone) should be making a preorder, I won't be I simply don't know enough to want to drop any money on it, we don't even know if's WFB 9th or a starter game. Blimey the fact it's only available for preorder for seven days should tell us how little importance GW puts on them. That doesn't mean I'm not very excited about it though. Just a thought though if it is a starter game may be AoS IS the hype for the new WFB (I don't know just brainstorming)

Daboarder yes 1/3 - 1/4 is a sizeable portion of total sales however my reason for mentioning this was, with other figures, an attempt to show how it is mostly made up of 40K sales and that WFB has a very small following in the U.S.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm in the US and I think the 4th thing is totally meaningless. WFB doesn't have a strong following in my region like 40k so the release isn't exactly something most folks are getting excited about. If it's a good enough system people (myself included) will gradually migrate to it over the coming months.

That's all I'm getting at. Good job you're here I was beginning to think I was losing my mind.

Erik Setzer
07-17-2015, 01:24 PM
Annual report is scheduled to be released on July 28. So in a week and a half, we'll see what's going on.

Caitsidhe
07-22-2015, 02:19 PM
Annual report is scheduled to be released on July 28. So in a week and a half, we'll see what's going on.


Yup. I can't wait to see what Father Christmas brings early. :D

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 04:54 AM
Yup. I can't wait to see what Father Christmas brings early. :D

Nailed it. Tell you what... I'm going to go ahead and give my prediction (so we get it time stamped on the record again) for the next report. I expect, despite the AOS and the various other releases we are sure to see that the next report will show another decrease in sales of a MINIMUM of 3%. I expect it to actually hit 5%.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 04:57 AM
£400,000 drop in takings at constant currency.

Profits up.

Yep. It's the end of days fo' sho'.

Interesting bit - CEO is promising a full review of their products, then says 'I'm not lowering prices, but ensuring we have a reasonable spread of price points'.

As one of life's little optimists - could mean new kits at a cheaper price point as a sort of 'Tesco Value' range?

Charon
07-28-2015, 05:22 AM
Im very curious what "full review of existing products" means. To me it sounds like: "If it aint selling, it is gonna go the way of the squats"

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 05:22 AM
£400,000 drop in takings at constant currency.

Profits up.

Yep. It's the end of days fo' sho'.

Interesting bit - CEO is promising a full review of their products, then says 'I'm not lowering prices, but ensuring we have a reasonable spread of price points'.

As one of life's little optimists - could mean new kits at a cheaper price point as a sort of 'Tesco Value' range?


Sales down. Yes you can try to spin that by cutting to the bone, trying to blame ephemeral factors, and other funny twists. Sales are still down, again. I am predicting another drop in said sales. As to your being an optimist, don't you kind of have to be? I am interested in your view though. If they are not lowering prices, exactly what dos a reasonable spread of price points mean. Can you explain this cheaper price point Tesco Value range?

Psychosplodge
07-28-2015, 05:37 AM
He means a budget range. Like maybe a snap fit sprue or something that's maybe half the price but a lot more basic.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 05:45 AM
Down by £400,000. Or a fraction of 1%. Help help the sky are felled on my noggins!

As for optimism - it's genuinely me in real life, it's not a 'Hobby Only' thing.

And I'll do my best to explain the Tesco Value concept. I'll start by quoting the relevant passage from the report, so we're all on the same page....



Secondly, I will review our product range. We believe this is long overdue; it is time for a resetting of the ranges. Not tweaking here and there but a top down reassessment. I expect to update you further at the half year. We will aim to continue to deliver outstanding product and customer service, maintain our Group gross margin and continue to improve our Group stock turn. To be absolutely clear I will not be reducing the RRP of our products: they are premium priced for their premium quality. I will, however, be looking to offer a broader range of price points. This is exciting and is for the long term, so I'm not promising when you will see a change. We have already started the brainstorming in our monthly strategic product meetings. It is early days, but I can already foresee some busy times ahead

Bold emphasis mine.

First up, let's not get into the emotive language used by Mr Rountree - this is to be expected, and whether you agree or not with his description is entirely moot.

So, the bit in bold.... I'm speculating that we might see different sculpts of different units at different price points. Best example I can offer now would be some kind of return to monopose. Think push fit Marines (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marines), sold alongside the standard Tactical Squad, at a cheaper price. This opens up different price point avenues to playing - which many have claimed is the single biggest issue GW face.

And if I'm mangling my words (struggling at work today to. Just cannot get my thoughts down on paper :( ) here's the briefest way I can think of.

Tactical Marines, additional simplified set released alongside. Current remains at current pricepoint of £25.00. Pushfit No Options 'Value' brand released, £15.00, both sold side by side.

But this is just speculation - the quote itself even suggests they're not completely sure what this is going to look like yet, as they're at the brainstorm stage.

Path Walker
07-28-2015, 05:46 AM
Sales down. Yes you can try to spin that by cutting to the bone, trying to blame ephemeral factors, and other funny twists. Sales are still down, again. I am predicting another drop in said sales. As to your being an optimist, don't you kind of have to be? I am interested in your view though. If they are not lowering prices, exactly what dos a reasonable spread of price points mean. Can you explain this cheaper price point Tesco Value range?

They obviously would like more sales but they seem happy to be a premium brand with costs to match, lower sales also means lower overheads, it might not be beneficial to get more sales when it comes at the expense of profits and seeing as how profits are up, this would appear to be the case. Obviously there are a lot of factors to this but generally, they're in a good position, they're looking to expand into other market places again.

A spread of price points is because currently, most of their kits are in the £20- £70 range, nothing much lower any more, so they'll want to look at things like the simple troops boxes at "pocket money" prices they had a few years back that have slowly gone out of the shops

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 05:51 AM
Oh they're still there, at least online. But seriously - wtf is anyone going to usefully do with a box of three Tactical Marines, unless buying them to pad out a Devastator set by replacing Tac Marines in other squads, the originals having been armed with more serial dakka.

But otherwise yeah - that's my speculation. But we shall have to wait and see.

As for the £400,000 takings? Report says much of that is down to changes in how some items are distributed, including magazines. And it's a fairly small amount given their constant currency is £120,000,000 odd.

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 05:54 AM
Hrm. Ok. We shall see. :D I have no problem waiting for the next report to see how it comes out "again"... If their current course (and the AOS stuff) doesn't reverse the direction, it will be interesting to see what kind of spin that gets. I'm a money where your mouth is kind of guy and I absolutely feel there will be no effective bump whatsoever from AOS. In fact, I expect another decrease in sales. Mr. Path Walker in another location called this cutting the dead weight from the customer base. I found this entire notion hilarious because in general you don't want to cut ANY of the customer base. Even people who only buy a little bit are buying things. Some sales are better than no sales from an individual customer.

Apparently cutting this dead weight is viewed as somehow allowing all these other, previously non-existent customers to spring forth from the ground fertilized, no doubt, by the blood of the sacrificed dead weight? I digress. Is should leave having fun with Path Walker logic for another time and place. I've put my predictions down. Let's hear from you optimists. How about you put some numbers behind the bravado.

Psychosplodge
07-28-2015, 06:01 AM
As much as it pains me to agree with Caitsidhe :p I doubt they'd set out to deliberately shrink their customer base

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 06:04 AM
If your customer isn't spending, then they're not a customer.

This is part of the issue with the success of GW. Long term players, whilst happy to buy large armies, have less incentive to buy new stuff.

I'm a regular Warhammer gamer, including with AoS - yet until End Times came upon us, I hadn't really bought anything apart from Army Books (excellent reading for when you're on the Porcelain Throne) for a good couple of years. But with AoS, I'm feeling reinvigorated, as I can now whack together any collection into a fieldable army - and I spent £184.00 this month alone doing just that. Now, whether that's sustained we'll of course have to wait and see, but it's certainly proving popular in my neck of the woods at the moment.

A further decrease in sales I can't agree on. Again only local knowledge, but more of my gaming associates have been buying stuff recently, and with some form of plastic HH just around the corner, I expect that will only increase (certainly I'm seeing HH more favourably because of it - I don't especially like small resin kits, as I find them to fiddly for my strangler's hands. So plastic infantry means I only need to do resin on larger, vehicular kits for the most part, which I'm more confident on).

grimmas
07-28-2015, 06:06 AM
A tiny drop perhaps down to the fact that I suspect people may not have been buying WFB very much in the last few months in the year due to uncertainty over where the game was going. Also lets not forget the problems occurring in the Eurozone not just the currency conversion issues but also that people are likely to spend less on luxuries when their money is being devalued.

An increase in profit is only ever a good thing and as the restructuring happened 2 years ago now it's pretty obvious it was a success.

Yep GW is in good shape they've trimmed the fat got consolidated and if AoS is anything to go by they started to innovate again.

Sorry folks no imminent death in sight.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 06:07 AM
Wonder if anyone on Dakkadakka has accused them of cooking their books again, like some kind of Nerd ENRON?

grimmas
07-28-2015, 06:15 AM
As much as it pains me to agree with Caitsidhe :p I doubt they'd set out to deliberately shrink their customer base

They're not, they're trying to get rid of the non buying veterans who are frankly quite obstructive to what they try and do. They'd really rather they went away so they can get new blood in. Trust me it quite startling how negative an effect having the wrong type of vets in your store can be. "Retiring" vets is something that happens.

Filthy Casual
07-28-2015, 06:18 AM
When customers are actively detrimental to recruitment, like hardcore WAAC Tournament types are (look at WFB, the reason this died was the refusal of some players to be cool, which led to everyone having to play massive games which stifled take up) getting rid of such elements will have a positive long term effect on sales, short term you'll see a decline but when it becomes much easier to recruit those middle class parents to spend a small fortune on not having to engage with their kids, it pays for itself.

- - - Updated - - -


They're not, they're trying to get rid of the non buying veterans who are frankly quite obstructive to what they try and do. They'd really rather they went away so they can get new blood in. Trust me it quite startling how negative an effect having the wrong type of vets in your store can be. "Retiring" vets is something that happens.

Yep, I believe when a new Manager starts, one of the first things they're supposed to do is get rid of vets. If you ever see someone complain about how a new GW Manager is an arsehole, its probably because that individual is a troublesome veteran who makes recruitment harder.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 06:20 AM
That wasn't part of the course I was on....

Filthy Casual
07-28-2015, 06:21 AM
That wasn't part of the course I was on....

You must not have been identified as a cleaner then, probably too nice for that

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 06:25 AM
Or you're misinformed :p

There's always some element of clean out when a new manager takes over - simply because there's no existing rapport with the customers, and rules relaxed over a period of time are suddenly reinforced.

But, meh. Those most affected tend to be the most highly strung, and I say sod 'em as a general rule when dealing with people.

grimmas
07-28-2015, 06:37 AM
When customers are actively detrimental to recruitment, like hardcore WAAC Tournament types are (look at WFB, the reason this died was the refusal of some players to be cool, which led to everyone having to play massive games which stifled take up) getting rid of such elements will have a positive long term effect on sales, short term you'll see a decline but when it becomes much easier to recruit those middle class parents to spend a small fortune on not having to engage with their kids, it pays for itself.

- - - Updated - - -



Yep, I believe when a new Manager starts, one of the first things they're supposed to do is get rid of vets. If you ever see someone complain about how a new GW Manager is an arsehole, its probably because that individual is a troublesome veteran who makes recruitment harder.

It wasn't quite that absolute when I with them. It all depends on how well the store was doing and generally a poor performing store had "bad" veterans and you'd get rid of them, a well performing store you'd probably build on them rather than go for a clean slate. Vets don't like change though so regardless they'd generally not like the new manager, not that I ever cared it's all about the bottom line it is a business after all

I would add its been quite a while since I worked for them but that is very much how it worked then and we were very successful.

Cutter
07-28-2015, 08:54 AM
They're not, they're trying to get rid of the non buying veterans who are frankly quite obstructive to what they try and do. They'd really rather they went away so they can get new blood in. Trust me it quite startling how negative an effect having the wrong type of vets in your store can be. "Retiring" vets is something that happens.

A "Veterans are like any other customer. They can be a benefit or a hazard. If it's a benefit, it's not my problem."

B "May I ask a personal question?"

A "Go ahead."

B "Have you ever retired a customer by mistake ?"

Grimmas blinks... hesitates before answering the question.

A "No."

B "But in your position that is a risk."

A TWO HEADED EAGLE flaps around the huge marble office.

Psychosplodge
07-28-2015, 09:02 AM
A "Veterans are like any other customer. They can be a benefit or a hazard. If it's a benefit, it's not my problem."

B "May I ask a personal question?"

A "Go ahead."

B "Have you ever retired a customer by mistake ?"

Grimmas blinks... hesitates before answering the question.

A "No."

B "But in your position that is a risk."

A TWO HEADED EAGLE flaps around the huge marble office.

lmao

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 09:03 AM
If you were half as smart as you thought you were, you'd be dangerous.

Good one. My pillow will be damp with tears in the morning. :D Keep'em coming. I want a whole pastiche for the weekend get together. :D

Path Walker
07-28-2015, 09:04 AM
Who do you think you're fooling? This conversation is the most in depth human interaction you've had in months.

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 09:11 AM
Who do you think you're fooling? This conversation is the most in depth human interaction you've had in months.

Hrm... not really as good as the other one. You got any more? I mean, I know we are dumbing down the debate to one sentence personal attacks (I want you to feel comfortable in the narrow window in which you can operate) but you can do better than that. I mean, just google some insults or something. I don't want to be clubbing a baby seal.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 09:21 AM
On e subject of the course, and what was is and isn't taught, I'm going to stick with my experience on that one.

Could well be different now, could also differ from country to country. But I knows what I was tolds at the time :)

grimmas
07-28-2015, 09:31 AM
A "Veterans are like any other customer. They can be a benefit or a hazard. If it's a benefit, it's not my problem."

B "May I ask a personal question?"

A "Go ahead."

B "Have you ever retired a customer by mistake ?"

Grimmas blinks... hesitates before answering the question.

A "No."

B "But in your position that is a risk."

A TWO HEADED EAGLE flaps around the huge marble office.

Excellent Sir, excellent

- - - Updated - - -


I'm sure you think so. :D Your posts bother some people Path Walker, but me personally, I love them. You are the single most entertaining thing I find here. In fact, if you weren't here, I probably would have lost interest in even coming to BOLS a long time ago. When a bunch of us gather we like to crowd around the big screen and just start jumping to your posts. You should be proud. I've seen some of my grimmer friends in tears from laughter. You aren't quite the centerpiece to our evenings, but you are always a part of it. It is like going to the 700 Club or tuning into Rush Limbaugh now and again as a guilty pleasure just to see what crazy, obnoxious thing he will say next. I'm really looking forward to the next get together when we have a laugh about you (and Grimmas) voicing the idea and belief that is GW's policy to run off the veterans, that the veterans are bad for the hobby, screw those guys. :D The ironic, and darkly funny thing is that I actually believe that the leadership at Games Workshop does feel more as you do than they do as say a Mr. Mystery. More is the pity. Still you are a always good for a laugh. It is the intellectual version of schtich made ten times more entertaining because you have no idea you are engaged in it.

Glad I keep you amused, I would rather you credit me with what I actually said though because that ain't it, is it?

Path Walker
07-28-2015, 09:32 AM
Hrm... not really as good as the other one. You got any more? I mean, I know we are dumbing down the debate to one sentence personal attacks (I want you to feel comfortable in the narrow window in which you can operate) but you can do better than that. I mean, just google some insults or something. I don't want to be clubbing a baby seal.

Nah, you're alright, I'm popping you on ignore now, I know you're happy that someone is paying you attention so I'd rather just deprive you of that. Bye.

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 09:40 AM
Excellent Sir, excellent

- - - Updated - - -



Glad I keep you amused, I would rather you credit me with what I actually said though because that ain't it, is it?

That is a fair critique. I was paraphrasing the direction, an amalgamation of your comments, those of Path Walker, and our new voice... Filthy Casual. It isn't fair to put words in your mouth, and for that you have my apology, but you can certainly see how the combination of your various posts trumpet out the idea I stated. If that is not what you intended to imply, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt while you clarify what you actually meant by your statements.

- - - Updated - - -


Nah, you're alright, I'm popping you on ignore now, I know you're happy that someone is paying you attention so I'd rather just deprive you of that. Bye.

No worries Path Walker. I don't care if you pay attention to me or not. You setting me on ignore doesn't mean we don't get to catalog and enjoy all your greatest hits as you go forward. While I will lose the opportunity for all this wonderfully intellectual banter (how will I ever go on) at least we will always have... whatever it was you said last week or the week before that... and there was that thing I said when I was laughing at you. :D Here's looking at you kid. I suppose it is all for the best. We can go back to just talking about the actual topic.

Lexington
07-28-2015, 09:55 AM
When customers are actively detrimental to recruitment, like hardcore WAAC Tournament types are (look at WFB, the reason this died was the refusal of some players to be cool, which led to everyone having to play massive games which stifled take up) getting rid of such elements will have a positive long term effect on sales, short term you'll see a decline but when it becomes much easier to recruit those middle class parents to spend a small fortune on not having to engage with their kids, it pays for itself.
This isn't a realistic look at GW's customer base or how recruitment happens in the hobby. GW lives and dies on network effects - fewer players playing means fewer players starting. GW themselves do almost no outreach or marketing besides having stores in an area.

This also isn't at all a useful analysis of how WHFB died. Bigger games with huge blocks of infantry were baked into the 8th Edition rules as a sales tactic by GW - it just backfired on them when people decided to stop playing the game instead.


Profits up.
Profit increases seem to have mostly been the result of a massive decline in taxes (£4.5m last year, £1.9m this year).


Down by £400,000. Or a fraction of 1%. Help help the sky are felled on my noggins!
This is after three previous consecutive reports of falling sales - the past two years have been, cumulatively, pretty unkind to GW. The next few probably won't be much kinder.

On the bright side for GW, their decline, while real, seems to have been slowed to near-stabilization. They're certainly not going anywhere any time soon, but that's a fact that cuts both ways - they don't seem to have a solid strategy towards growth, rather than somewhat-profitable decline.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 10:24 AM
Rest of the report suggests that 'with an ego free team' change is indeed afoot.

As you say, it'll be a while before any real change is evidenced, but things are certainly looking interesting.

Lexington
07-28-2015, 10:26 AM
Rest of the report suggests that 'with an ego free team' change is indeed afoot.
They do know that Tom Kirby is still on that team, right? ;)

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 10:32 AM
Their words (or a close approximation!) not mine!

grimmas
07-28-2015, 10:39 AM
That is a fair critique. I was paraphrasing the direction, an amalgamation of your comments, those of Path Walker, and our new voice... Filthy Casual. It isn't fair to put words in your mouth, and for that you have my apology, but you can certainly see how the combination of your various posts trumpet out the idea I stated. If that is not what you intended to imply, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt while you clarify what you actually meant by your statements.

Apology accepted old boy. I think I've said enough on the subject of the detrimental effects some Veterans can have so I'm not going to say anymore I've clarified enough cast your eye over my reply to Filthy Casual for a bit more explanation. I would say though that I've been a GW customer since 87 so I do actually consider myself a Vet.

Lexington
07-28-2015, 10:40 AM
Their words (or a close approximation!) not mine!
:D

The one thing I'm really wondering about is that "reassessment" of existing product lines. It...doesn't sound good, especially for Sisters players, but maybe for even more mainstream armies as well. What else is going to end up on that fateful chopping block?

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 11:06 AM
Rest of it doesn't sound like a chopping board would be involved though.

States explicitly prices aren't going down, but that he wants a better range of price points.

Wide open to speculation, and my own thoughts are earlier in this very thread.

Could also be entirely new product types, or dare I even think it resurrection of older stuff.

We're told Specialist Games weren't particularly profitable - but they're still sales. With the boat seemingly steadied, and most markets emerging from the financial whoopsie of 2008, now could be the time that they feel confident enough to push them again, particularly given the like of FFG have shown some kind of market for it exists, though whether it's big enough for GW to chase is very much up to opinion - but I'm fairly sure they could manage to produce BFG again at a 'Cheaper than Armada, which is almost piss takingly pricey' price point. The rules are there, and people already have fleets. Bit of rebranding, perhaps a spit and polish of the rules, and you have a potential new revenue stream, even if (numbers out my arse time!) it yields only 5% profit compared to 40k's 10% profit :)

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 11:41 AM
Rest of the report suggests that 'with an ego free team' change is indeed afoot.

As you say, it'll be a while before any real change is evidenced, but things are certainly looking interesting.

This is perhaps where you and I differ the most. I suspect that you have a much greater opinion of human beings in general than I do. I read the exact same report you did and drew an entirely different conclusion. To me the carefully worded statement sounded like it was merely what Kirby said but proofed to cut back on the crazy and foolish. In short, I don't think the current CEO holds the reigns. I think he was hand picked by Kirby because he does what Kirby says. I think Kirby pretended to take the back seat and just sit on the council to placate the growing agitation of others who are considerable stockholders. To me this looks like it is all about ego and full steam ahead. Very rarely will a CEO every say something like we will NOT lower prices. There is no reason to do it (even if it is true) because it limits your own options and paints you into a corner. Silly statements like this are infamous in the United States, i.e. "Read my lips. No new taxes." It is silly to limit one's options as a chief executive. It also makes one look exceptionally stupid when you end up being forced to go against your own statement. So why did he say it? Why bother? It wasn't necessary to placate stockholders. They only care about profits and the value of the stock. They know lowering prices has no effect on stock prices in general. In fact, increased sales do to that kind of move almost always lead to a bump. The only reason to make such a weird statement was to reiterate Kirby's vision, Kirby's direction, and make it clear who is actually in control. :D That, my friend, is ego.

Charon
07-28-2015, 11:44 AM
:D

The one thing I'm really wondering about is that "reassessment" of existing product lines. It...doesn't sound good, especially for Sisters players, but maybe for even more mainstream armies as well. What else is going to end up on that fateful chopping block?

Actually I would not even dare a bet if Dark Eldar will survive. They did set up for an easy eradication (the "eaten by tyranids" just becomes "someone opened the door") they are not a top seller and a lot of them are in need of an overhaul (finecast all the way) while the codex was exceptionally bad and not well received.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 11:45 AM
Again, no suggestion anything is being scrapped. They're only just beginning the review process, far too early to be worrying about what may or may not happen.

Path Walker
07-28-2015, 11:50 AM
while the codex was exceptionally bad and not well received.

how the "competitive 40k" community view a codex isn't the same as it being bad.

In fact, its another reason to not want those people as customers.

Caitsidhe
07-28-2015, 11:54 AM
how the "competitive 40k" community view a codex isn't the same as it being bad.

In fact, its another reason to not want those people as customers.

That's right. In Bizarro World the customers compete for their right to give vendors their money. Only the worthy customers are wanted. The unworthy have money that is inferior. :D

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 12:02 PM
But if it's a case of the minority actually complaining, there's rarely much one can do about it, and it's GW who have the best info.

All we can really offer is anecdotal observations from our own little ponds.

grimmas
07-28-2015, 01:44 PM
I can't see that they haven't been constantly reviewing their products lines already and I'd think that judging on the frequency of updates you can tell what the best/worst sellers are.

I've always found Dark Eldar quite popular but Charon does point out that they do this have a lot of finecast in the range which might not be a good sign but at least they got finecast the sisters are still metal.

I don't think they'd just get rid of something they'd already made models for its not really their style they usually just leave it to dwindle and die as stock winds down and not make anymore that's what happened to Squats, dogs of war and specialist games.

I would say it's fairly obvious the Sisters are in a precarious position, what's going to happen I don't know but it's going to come down to how much money they think they can make off them. May be a mini dex like Skitari or MT or a retcon back to their original RT mention. Whatever it'll be down to sales and it seems like Sisters haven't really ever sold well.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 01:51 PM
Yet they've never had plastics, and fell into the awkward size of army where sure you don't need Horde Numbers, but still a fairly decent amount, further limiting the range.

They're certainly popular, and it's not the army at fault for not being strong sellers, but the current range. Sort that, and they will sell.

Path Walker
07-28-2015, 02:28 PM
Sisters, with the right treatment should be a great army that sells as well as any other non-space marine army, but, since their intro, they've not had the right treatment.

I think we've seen with skitarii that they can do robes well in plastic now, so I can't imagine that can really on that excuse any more now they have that down. A smaller release would suit them well, a mini codex like Skitarii, Cult Mech and Harlies. Hopefully we'll see something like that in the next few years.

Mr Mystery
07-28-2015, 02:48 PM
Yep.

Though I suspect that as with Dark Eldar, the range is very much Jes' baby, and thus open to the same 'EVERYTHING WILL BE GORGEOUS' wants and expectations of both designer and collectors.

grimmas
07-28-2015, 03:33 PM
I'm not sure it's just a case of make them plastic and they'll sell (look at the squats). They didn't
seem to do as well as others when metal models were the norm. That said being metal at the moment is very much stopping big sales so I agree they need plastics to have chance. The design team need to have a think about the theme and stop trying to shoe horn too much in for the sake of it and go for the Mini dex. Keep to a theme rather than a mash up of Ecclesiasty units.

Still I'm not sure that this is what they were referring to when "reviewing their product range" as they have got to be doing that continually and this refers to things on a bigger scale than just individual factions.

daboarder
07-28-2015, 03:56 PM
Sisters, with the right treatment should be a great army that sells as well as any other non-space marine army, but, since their intro, they've not had the right treatment.


this is pretty much widely acknowledged by the community. I've never met a player that didnt find the sisters one of the most interesting factions in warhammer 40k. I mean they are after all the millitant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, and one of the biggest story points in 40k is faith in the god emperor.

Alaric
07-28-2015, 04:33 PM
You would think that Gdub would put more emphasis on the ladies (actual women not the sisters) as its another source of money for em.

daboarder
07-28-2015, 04:40 PM
You would think that Gdub would put more emphasis on the ladies (actual women not the sisters) as its another source of money for em.

There was a point were they were including mor female characters. But they didnt have models though and then the IP hammer hit

Alaric
07-28-2015, 05:50 PM
There was a point were they were including mor female characters. But they didnt have models though and then the IP hammer hit

IP hammer? What, they couldnt copyright shaped boobs on the armor? :P

Really tho u got me, im curious as to their reasoning. Looking at comics as one example, your money doubles when u include both sexes..

daboarder
07-28-2015, 06:27 PM
IP hammer? What, they couldnt copyright shaped boobs on the armor? :P

Really tho u got me, im curious as to their reasoning. Looking at comics as one example, your money doubles when u include both sexes..

not quite what I was referring to,

GW botched their case and kinda ruined it a bit for the whole industry (not entirely their fault the judge was apparently smokin something as well according to other companies). Basically concept art and renders of a while in production model no longer give control of that image in physical form.

What this means is that until GW (or any model company) is actually producing and selling a physical model other companies can take the concept art or render, rush a nock off into production and claim they are not plagiarizing IP.

After this happened most characters that did not have a model (including the large number of female characters) were dropped from subsequent codexes as GW could not guarantee control of the IP.

This ruling has obviously had an effect on other miniature companies as well. Here is the a responce from Antenocitis workshop about what it meant for them.


Note: Due to recent rulings (in the US especially) concerning the use of concept art and IPR (Intellectual Property Rights) we will no longer be showing concept art or WIPs for many items.... for which we are a tad sad... but we have to be cautious now concerning all concept art copyright issues.


Well, in brief... there was a ruling in the US that concept art, whilst copyrighted for its medium, did not, by default, mean that it was copyright for all other mediums, particularly if the concept art only existed in the one medium.



Please bear in mind that this is a judges ruling and thus subject to any future ruling that may be of a different stance, however what it essentially means is that if you produce concept art then you are protected if other people copy/use that concept art in that medium, or in a related medium... so digital art would be protected for any copied drawings, digital 2d images and so forth...



However nothing says that it would mean that the deisgn within that art was copyrighted for production in another medium: so if you took the concept and produced a 3d model from the 2d image, then, under certain circumstances, that would not be a breach of IPR... particularly if the owners of the 2D art did not have any competitive product or *item* in that 3D medium.

So by showing 2d art, another party *might be able to* copy it into a 3d medium and sell that 3d medium item without infringing copyright.



Until the issue is resolved at a higher court or with additional cases, its now prudent to withhold concept art until you are ready to also produce it in the 3d medium i.e. as a physical product...otherwise a possibility exists that others could use it without infringement by *beating you to market* with their own version of it.

Now we can protect our Designs™ under UK Law, that also covers us in the EU, but not under any other jurisdictions... especially the US where this judgement took place.

Thus, until it is resolved *unequivocally* we're going to have to be more careful in what images we release of 2d concept art or WIPs of models... especially given that our development time frame is quite lengthy.

It may all come to nothing, and be a lot of smoke with no fire.... but we've been advised to be more cautious. /em shrugs





TLDR: a judge made a weird ruling thats gotten everybodys knickers in a twist.

Alaric
07-28-2015, 07:04 PM
Ohh so this is the take away from the Chapterhouse dealy.

Thanks dude. Didn't know that little bit aboot it.

Lexington
07-28-2015, 07:12 PM
I think Kirby pretended to take the back seat and just sit on the council to placate the growing agitation of others who are considerable stockholders.
Didn't Kirby step down because, legally, he couldn't be "Interim Chairman" any longer? Overall, though, I agree that the company is still directed by his philosophy, which seems to be a mildly crazy one.


We're told Specialist Games weren't particularly profitable - but they're still sales. With the boat seemingly steadied, and most markets emerging from the financial whoopsie of 2008, now could be the time that they feel confident enough to push them again
This would be great, but I really doubt it's something we'll see beyond boxed games like 'Execution Force' (and if they keep selling like 'Execution Force,' we won't see any of them at all). Where we differ is that I don't think the boat's been steadied, really - it's not out-and-out sinking anymore, necessarily, but there's still plenty of leaks. Sales volumes have dropped something on the order of 15 - 20% over the last two years, and continue to decline overall, corporate has put a salary freeze on the company for the rest of the year (while still paying dividends, which must be great for internal morale), and several sources have them lined up to pull the same shenanigans on 40K as have just been pulled on WHFB - a change that seems to have been met with all the same good feelings elicited by a wet fart. I wouldn't say GW's future is bright, just not immediately catastrophic.

daboarder
07-28-2015, 07:44 PM
Ohh so this is the take away from the Chapterhouse dealy.

Thanks dude. Didn't know that little bit aboot it.

yes and no, they were still too lazy to produce female models and too temper tantrum to just copy and paste the rules. so yes they are pretty bad with gender representation these days, but they weren't always as bad and had been at one point making big strides forward

grimmas
07-29-2015, 01:27 AM
Interesting point about the CHS outcome.

Is an all female faction going to have female hobbyist springing out of the wood work? The Sisters have been a faction since 2nd and they don't seem to have had that effect. Female hobbyists seem to just as varied in their preferences as male ones. What I find really strange though is the absence of female Guard models anymore, the ones they did were pretty good and the other the non imperial/ space marine factions are no gender or mixed gender models. It would really only take a female head sprue for plastic cadians and they'd be good to go.

It would be all down to GW deciding that the likely revenue would exceed expenditure. Who knows though AoS' radical departure from their usual model may suggest GW has become a little less risk adverse.

Mr Mystery
07-29-2015, 01:52 AM
Would it suddenly bring hordes of wimmins? Doubtful.

But, it would make the game more accessible to them, as right now the various races are quite the sausagefest for the most part. And the more people seen to be playing your game, the more others are exposed, and the more likely the spectator will become the participant, and so on. That's pretty much the entire reason GW has their own stores!

Plus, it would be nice to see a non 'five tissue fantasy' take on female warriors in modern scifi gaming. I know infinity has some female sculpts - though if they look like their take on Joan of Arc, who appears to have had a large wedge inserted into her pelvis, they're not terribly realistic!

Path Walker
07-29-2015, 03:04 AM
Yeah, i love my Haqqislam but the women models are really cheesecakey, the women from the Nomads straight off stopped me looking at the game for a long time

grimmas
07-29-2015, 04:34 AM
Yeah I'm being overly verbose just trying to evidence that I believe GWs customer demographics are more down to social factors rather than product ones (and SoB have never been much of a cash as they are). Also the current Cadians with head swaps are perfect for female models. In fact their body armour does resemble what is currently available to accomadate certain bust sizes.

And more on topic I saw this ;


Of course, other stocks also hold considerable appeal and, while GlaxoSmithKline is an obvious choice, there are strong returns on offer elsewhere. For example, miniature figurine and games manufacturer Games Workshop (LSE: GAW) has seen its share price rise by over 5% yesterday after releasing impressive results for its most recent financial year.

In fact, Games Workshop delivered an increase in pretax profit, with it rising from £12m in the previous year to over £16m last year. That’s an excellent gain when you consider that a weak Euro had a negative impact on the company’s sales and, with consumer confidence in the single-currency region also coming under pressure, it was a double blow for the Warhammer games producer. Still, dividends are on the up and, at its present price of 557p, Games Workshop yields a very enticing 6.3%. Furthermore, it trades on a P/E ratio of just 13.9, which indicates that a rerating potential is on the cards

Source;
http://www.fool.co.uk/investing/2015/07/29/are-hardy-oil-gas-plc-and-games-workshop-group-plc-more-appealing-buys-than-glaxosmithkline-plc/

Quite interesting considering GW is effectively owned by investment companies.

Erik Setzer
08-01-2015, 10:08 AM
Tom Kirby is still at it:

"The Great Master Plan continues: cutting costs, becoming more efficient, providing excellent returns on capital and paying dividends. We do not set out to pay dividends, we set out to run an efficient company that uses money wisely. We know we are doing that well when we have more money than we need; this becomes your dividend."

"The visitor centre is a cathedral of miniatures with the world’s largest and most spectacular diorama. Only £7.50 and a day you will remember all your life."

A "cathedral of miniatures?" Really?

"The new Warhammer is new. The Stormcast Eternals now bestride the universe and nothing will be the same again. Not even the front of our building. Buy Warhammer: Age of Sigmar when you come to the visitor centre or the AGM, and see what we have done."

So... new is new? Hmm. Who would have expected that? Also, how bad can things be when you have to try to push people to buy your new game in your investor report?

"As I write the world is tumbling in chaos around us. Pundits discover they cannot predict elections, the Americans ride to the rescue of world football (thank you, Uncle Sam), Sunderland escape relegation, again, the UK will split up into its consistent parts, it will leave Europe; and yet we struggle on. Babies get born, the rain falls the sun shines and the plants grow, our chickens keep laying, and Games Workshop still employs over 1,500 people, supporting 1,500 families all over the globe, making the best miniatures money can buy, providing one of the best investments in our owners' portfolios, and having a great deal of fun doing it."

Wow. Thanks for taking the time in an investor report to insult other nations, Kirby. And it's such a great investment in the portfolio that, even with the bump from the report showing profit "increase" (because of no one-time webstore cost), the stock is -39 from a year ago.

And I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in a company that's only staying profitable because it's been cutting costs faster than it's been losing sales (especially as the increasing cost of its products suggests volume of sales is down).

grimmas
08-01-2015, 11:40 AM
Yeah I think you're being a little sensitive there he's actually having a little joke about the fact it was the U.S. who actually did something about FIFA corruption and it is a little amusing considering the U.S.'s perceived ambivalence for the game. He's probably also referencing the very successful Ladies World Cup that was both held and won by the U.S.A

Warhammer World is and always has been great. If you do make it over here you should go. The only problem is that it's in Notingham which isn't the greatest English city by a long chalk(I had the misfortune of having to live there for a bit) It is in England though so we're not talking Baltimore or anything.

Denzark
08-01-2015, 03:24 PM
Wow. Thanks for taking the time in an investor report to insult other nations, Kirby. And it's such a great investment in the portfolio that, even with the bump from the report showing profit "increase" (because of no one-time webstore cost), the stock is -39 from a year ago.

As pointed out, this is not an insult - he is actually being complimentary. Have you ever heard of that cliché where men speak to Cosmopolitan magazine and tell them how to work out what a man is thinking?

One of the pieces goes like this: 'If a man says something to you that can be taken in 2 ways, and one makes you happy, and one makes you sad, take it that he meant to make you happy.


I really have no idea why you have anything to do with any GW based gaming - commenting, reading, surfing websites, playing, paying.

It just seems to aggravate you.

40kGamer
08-02-2015, 06:15 AM
Yeah I think you're being a little sensitive there he's actually having a little joke about the fact it was the U.S. who actually did something about FIFA corruption and it is a little amusing considering the U.S.'s perceived ambivalence for the game. He's probably also referencing the very successful Ladies World Cup that was both held and won by the U.S.A.

Spot on, John Oliver has done several nice spots on FIFA. I find it hilarious in this one when he says that he doesn't know what's more surprising... that FIFA officials were actually arrested or that America was behind it. He goes on to say that it takes the country that cares the least about football to bring down the people that have been ruining it. :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6ar3xJL_Q

Erik Setzer
08-03-2015, 05:17 AM
Yeah I think you're being a little sensitive there he's actually having a little joke about the fact it was the U.S. who actually did something about FIFA corruption and it is a little amusing considering the U.S.'s perceived ambivalence for the game. He's probably also referencing the very successful Ladies World Cup that was both held and won by the U.S.A

Warhammer World is and always has been great. If you do make it over here you should go. The only problem is that it's in Notingham which isn't the greatest English city by a long chalk(I had the misfortune of having to live there for a bit) It is in England though so we're not talking Baltimore or anything.

In the context, I feel it was likely meant as sarcasm.

I'm not saying WW isn't bad (though I'd only visit if I have like two weeks in the country, because there's other, better stuff to visit for my time, like castles, battlefields, and pubs), just that using the word "cathedral" is a bit much, like suggesting it's a holy experience or something.

Erik Setzer
08-03-2015, 05:39 AM
I really have no idea why you have anything to do with any GW based gaming - commenting, reading, surfing websites, playing, paying.

It just seems to aggravate you.

I thought I'd explained this elsewhere, but let's try again.

First off, much of the community I don't mind. The pro-GW trolls, like the anti-GW trolls, are actually fewer in number than they seem, and don't represent the community. Yes, I despise those people for their dishonest attitude, but, again, they are not the community. There are also parts of the community I dislike, like the rules lawyering gits who play at the local GW, but parts I really like, like the guys who want to have a fun, fair game who play at a different local store and have been playing much longer. (It is ironic that the "community" is said to be so anti-rules-lawyering and anti-WAAC, but it's the new recruits at a GW store who are worst with that attitude here.)

I don't just surf websites, I have my own, I just need to get it updated again (meh for being sick and busy).

I play the games where I can, with the people who don't play using the mentality GW wants to push in the games. People who don't rush to use all these garbage new formations and stuff to get bonuses for giving GW more money are more fun to play with. I'm part of a small (but growing) HH/30K group locally, which is overall balanced aside from Knight armies. (It's actually a problem in 30K for a lot of armies. While my Iron Warriors are thematic in having lots of anti-tank and using vehicles, I've noticed other armies built thematically don't have a lot to take out armor, and once that's gone, you can whittle down the rest of the army easily. Thankfully, the one guy with a Knight army is willing to not bring them that often, though in 40K he had no issues with three Knights and a TWC death star.) Heck, I'd play AoS if I could find people who weren't rules lawyering or trying to find ways to use the rules to do cheeky stuff. (Doesn't mean I'll forgive GW for mismanaging Warhammer and sending it into the ground, then wiping it out, rather than ever admitting they did wrong and fix it.)

I only pay for certain things. Right now, I'm not buying much. None of the AoS models really interest me, especially as the Sigmarines take elements of Warmachine and old-school Warzone (especially Bauhaus) design and blow them up to cartoonish proportions, which is fine since other people might like that, but I do find it annoying when some of the people praising them will at the same time insult WM for having the same style, just because WM isn't made by GW. It's a sad realization that, given how they've changed the game, it would take literally hundreds of dollars - on top of all the money I'd already spent over time - to really make any of my armies competitive with the armies I see on a consistent basis (at least at the GW store, which is right in my neighborhood, so easiest to get to). So, rather than try to spend that money, I am opting out of buying much GW stuff, especially having been burned by End Times. The nice thing is that it means right now I have more money to buy other games, and not just other miniature games. I can get a multiplayer board game that will provide loads of entertainment for multiple people for the price of a single five-man unit (or less). I can snag cheap games that still provide loads of replay value for the price of a character. This isn't so much an anti-GW-pricing commentary as just wonderment at what you can do with your money when you direct it to something new (alternately, I could go back to going out eating and drinking at decent restaurants every night, but that's a temporary enjoyment).

The only thing that consistently annoys me - okay, other than the rabid pro-GW trolls (and I'll keep calling them trolls so long as they take a nasty attitude to anyone who is the least bit critical of their Dear Leader) - is the company itself. I grew up during a time GW was growing, when they had sales, community outreach, and a load of different games. I remember board games on hobby and toy and department store shelves. I remember a better White Dwarf. I remember how things *could* be. And now I look at a company with one key line, trying to start a second one to replace the 30-year-old line they mismanaged into the ground, all board games gone (having to rely on a different company for them), all the other games gone, and trying desperately to avoid being known as a games workshop despite their name being literally Games Workshop. Yes, I have problems with the games in some areas, but those could be fixed, and too often they're a result of the money people needing more money NOW at the expense of the product line's long-term health, so, again, it's management I have an issue with overall.

You can be critical of something and still like it. My closest friend is my closest friend because she's blunt and honest with me and expects the same, and sometimes what she says isn't flattering, but I know it's because she cares about me. My best relationships all come from a position like that, where they understand that I'm not a person who sugar-coats and says everything is awesome, because only by pointing out the problems could they be fixed. And if you don't care about someone or something, why mention the problems? Why try to get it fixed? Let it rot.

I also love World of Warcraft, but I'm not playing it much right now and I've said some critical things about its recent direction. So it's not just limited to GW. I've also said critical things about other miniature companies, like how I don't like that Warmachine's "plastic" figures are really a resin hybrid, so I have to use superglue rather than plastic cement, which bonds better (if you use a good one and do it right).

I criticize because I care. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but... well, it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

grimmas
08-03-2015, 11:20 AM
In the context, I feel it was likely meant as sarcasm.

I'm not saying WW isn't bad (though I'd only visit if I have like two weeks in the country, because there's other, better stuff to visit for my time, like castles, battlefields, and pubs), just that using the word "cathedral" is a bit much, like suggesting it's a holy experience or something.

Nope given the context he was saying it was a very rare and surprising occurrence, amusingly so, much like the other things he mentions. Trust me the people of Sunderland aren't queuing up to lynch him and given last years report we can assume if he's going to insult anyone he'll do it directly.

Also I think you have little moral high ground on this point given some of your previous posts. You seem to have little problem with name calling and rudeness when it suits you. Id expect better from someone who is so quick to take offence.

Be careful of which battlefields you visit in the UK generally the actual location of them is fairly vague and even then most of them happened so long ago the ground they took place on is radically different anyway.

Erik Setzer
08-03-2015, 12:02 PM
Laying into people who choose to be offensive to begin with is different than saying something about an entire country. I don't say things about Brits or French. (Brits are a bad example... people who play WWII games with me or talk about WWII with me probably wish I'd shut up talking up the Brits.)

Also, I'm not particularly "quick to take offense." Takes a lot to actually bug me. If someone chooses to continue an offensive pattern, yeah, I'll respond. If they stop being offensive, I have no issue with them, and would gladly discuss, say, the proper shade of black to use when painting a model.

Regardless of whether he meant offense to anyone or not, Kirby's comments are very unprofessional for what should be a rather professional report. Rountree's cheerleading is necessary and is grounded. Kirby's comments... well, they feel like the kind of stuff you'd see on a less moderated Internet forum. And I can't help but wonder why he still gets to write an opening for the report when that should be left to the guy who replaced him as CEO. I think the best way to describe how I feel about Kirby is that he seems like what would happen if you took Bill O'Reilly, made him British, and gave him a prominent role in a gam- er, modeling company.

grimmas
08-03-2015, 01:14 PM
Hmmm you do realise I can read your little "who I despise and why" manifesto at the top of this page, don't you? Have you read the other people telling you you're mistaken, including a fellow American. Your bench mark for offensive behaviour seems to be not agreeing with you. Would mind awfully sticking me on your ignore list I've just remembered why I was enjoying this site much more last week. Thanks.

Erik Setzer
08-03-2015, 01:42 PM
If you're not enjoying something, why do you go to a website and post? Hey, it's a fair question to turn around on you, right?

And no, I'm not going to put you on my Ignore list. You can choose to do so with me, of course. But then you wouldn't be able to make comments directed to me. It seems strange that you want to comment to me and then don't want me to respond to them. If I put you on Ignore, but you didn't put me on Ignore, that doesn't solve that problem, it only means I wouldn't see your comments and questions directed at me. I also don't see enough of an issue with you to put you on Ignore. I've only got two vehemently pro-GW people (who are likely more just trolling others than really being pro-GW) and a couple of people who treat entire classes of people as being subhuman for being different than they are, an attitude I despise (and which everyone should despise). It seems here you're the most upset and easily offended person, and you're the one who has a problem with someone else, so why is it left to the other person to resolve your problem? Go ahead and put me on Ignore. Your choice.

Path Walker
08-03-2015, 01:49 PM
Hmmm you do realise I can read your little "who I despise and why" manifesto at the top of this page, don't you? Have you read the other people telling you you're mistaken, including a fellow American. Your bench mark for offensive behaviour seems to be not agreeing with you. Would mind awfully sticking me on your ignore list I've just remembered why I was enjoying this site much more last week. Thanks.

Just put him on Ignore, everyone else has, its for the best mate, he's the pits.

Caitsidhe
08-03-2015, 02:45 PM
I do think we could all use with fewer personal attacks. It really isn't necessary one way or the other. The topic itself provides more than enough meat to gnaw from the bone. I reserve both my praise and condemnation for the vendors who supply our rather odd hobby. To some degree, watching Games Workshop and predicting her declining sales has become a secondary diversion. Reading amusing posts by people who are not the least bit impartial is also entertaining. Sadly, the days of really good discussions of the game are long gone. We fill the void with whatever meager scraps remain. I used to comment on the decline of places like this. During the peak of mid-5th Edition 40K (and the transitioning Fantasy) I literally could not keep up with the posts. The majority of them were about tactics, battle reports, and overall strategies. It goes without saying there were the complaint posts, the fanboy posts, and the shill placement posts. They were, however, clearly in the minority. People talked about the game, how to play the game, games they had played, and the upcoming games they were planning. Rules were discussed frequently although not at all to the degree they are now. Balance was (and is always) an issue, but TOs could (and did) find ways to create a relatively fair environment. Was it perfect? No. Was it a very different and thriving community? Yes.

On any given day I could drive to the LGS of my choice, walk in with an army, and get a pick up game. It really was that simple. The discussions before games were short and simple because there weren't that many things impossible or totally miserable to play against. I have to admit I look back on that time with a fair amount of affection because Games Workshop was still supporting tournaments (big and small), prize support was ample, and we all had some common standards. I think I met (and befriended) more new people within the hobby back then I ever had before. Ultimately Games Workshop is irrelevant. The game (whatever game it is) is only as good as the community that supports it. Games Workshop decided that it didn't need to support the community. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they "mistakenly" believed it would support itself without their interaction. I think they honestly believed that it would continue forward under its own power, maintained by the cohesion of nostalgia and brand loyalty. It didn't work out that way.

Games Workshop literally walked off the cliff like Wyle E. Coyote and didn't immediately fall because they didn't look down. The problem is that ignorance of reality will only allow you to ignore it for so long. Once they realized they were over the cliff they had to try and appease the stockholders and not look like total fools. Thus began the cutting frenzy. Prior to their walk off the cliff, they had been quite profitable with a large work force and even expanding. Bad management gutted sales and as those dropped the margins would not longer support things. Layoffs, cutbacks, price jumps, material switches, and pretty much every other cut to the bone strategy was employed. Even as sales dropped they managed to stay in the black by cutting off their own limbs. In the short term this works somewhat, but in the long run it is almost always business suicide. They have reached the stage where they are simplifying their product line, i.e. have been reduced by the margins to only producing a narrow line of product. What is left to cut? At some point you have nothing left to amputate by your own damn head. Cuts will not be able to keep up with declining sales. They have reached the median point, i.e. where they are selling less but held profits. That doesn't last. For a business to thrive it must start growing, i.e. sales must increase. Age of Sigmar is a hell of a gamble. If that fails they are literally up the creek and without a paddle.

Erik Setzer
08-04-2015, 05:30 AM
That's the thing that's bugging me... If you look at the reports, the profit only remains in place because every year they're finding something else to cut. They cut all their other games. They just threw Warhammer out the window to replace it because they couldn't manage it. They're converting stores to only one man, which means they're closed two days a week, open limited hours, and they have to close when the one employee is sick... and that is NOT an ideal scenario for the stores that act as their largest driver of sales. They're making things as cheaply as they can without it being complete garbage quality (though Finecast failed there in a lot of ways, as the warped, twisted models hanging on shelves in local stores show). They keep finding places to cut costs, and now they're down to seeing how low they can skim the design team, and how much of the current range they can cut to remove its production costs. Meanwhile they raise prices over and over, claiming that they should because they sell "premium" products that are practically gold, but those raised prices aren't making up for the downward slide in sales. Their idea to increase sales is just to try to find more stores to sell through and press their employees to sell more by holding their salaries ransom. Only, why would anyone sign on to sell GW products? The company's current setup is designed to make sure non-GW stores of any type can't support the gamers and eventually the gamers have to go to GW directly to buy stuff, so anyone selling GW products basically has to compete with GW itself. and that's not a situation most retailers care to put themselves in. A lot of existing retailers only continue to carry GW product to support the existing community and have a token amount on hand, but it's a bad proposition for them. So then why would a hobby store or comic store want to take that on, introducing people to a range of products that would eventually take money out of their store? It's a bad strategy.

But yeah, far better to do all that than remember Games Workshop is a games workshop, or that maybe pricing toy soldiers so high isn't the best way to sell them (because they're game pieces, not museum art exhibits).

And yet, just saying these things, regretting that the company refuses to correct itself, somehow makes me an evil anti-GW person... (Even funnier because one of my best friends was asking me last night to help him prepare for an interview with GW this week, and I wasn't trying to talk him out of it or anything, just gave what help I could.)