the metagame, what are the lists?

[cypher623]

I have read several posts on this website where various people have commented on the fact that certain armies only have one or two playable builds. For example, someone posted that there was only one successful build for warriors of chaos; one for dwarves; one for empire.

I play the tournament circuit; traveling to about twelve indies per year, yet I have no idea what builds these guys are referring to. Can anyone help me with this?? Even if you know about the one strong WOC build that would help. Which armies are metagame type armies?

[Nikephoros]

Not meaning to be unconstructive, but if you go to that many tournaments every year how can you not know the popular lists?

[fe2mike]

As I am new to tournament play, I would love to know this as well, in order to know what kinds of lists to expect, if I was to go to a larger event.

[Kahoolin]

People who say there is only one successful build are talking a load of bunk. If you study tourneys, good tournament players manipulate the metagame by taking unexpected builds and practicing with them.

Internet loudmouths confuse obvious gimmicks with powerful builds. Taking a gimmicky list will enable you to smash new players, but you will more than likely lose to an experienced tournament player using an unorthodox list that they have practiced with.

[LoverzCry]

Well, I wouldn't say that this is true to the point. Every army can win, and every army had good units. It doens't really matter how you build your army, it's how you play it. Let me give you Fritz for example. He plays squishy eldar, with a speed-based build (majority of the time), but he also has a Harlequin based army. The speed-dar use cover saves and mobility to outmaneuver the enemy. And the Harlequins, which are super-squishy, he uses a more reserved strategem to get their full effect.

And to put myself out there, I play Black Templars in a long-ranged fashion. I don't play them up-in-your-face assault, I keep my game very shooty and this typically takes my opponents by surprise. I don't play fantasy, but I'm sure that the allied knights (sorry I don't remembe the name at the moment) and the Elves are very similar in playstyles in relation to their 40k counterparts. Overall, it doesn't matter so much as what army you play, it's how you play it.

[Lord Azaghul]

Well, I wouldn't say that this is true to the point. Every army can win, and every army had good units. It doens't really matter how you build your army, it's how you play it. Let me give you Fritz for example. He plays squishy eldar, with a speed-based build (majority of the time), but he also has a Harlequin based army. The speed-dar use cover saves and mobility to outmaneuver the enemy. And the Harlequins, which are super-squishy, he uses a more reserved strategem to get their full effect.

And to put myself out there, I play Black Templars in a long-ranged fashion. I don't play them up-in-your-face assault, I keep my game very shooty and this typically takes my opponents by surprise. I don't play fantasy, but I'm sure that the allied knights (sorry I don't remembe the name at the moment) and the Elves are very similar in playstyles in relation to their 40k counterparts. Overall, it doesn't matter so much as what army you play, it's how you play it.

psst, wrong game.

In 40k what you say it true. In fantasy, not so much. Certain armies are vastly (and unfortunately) superiour to others regardless of player skill.

[jamesTFL]

There are a few warriors of chaos lists, but they are revovle around 1 level 4 2 level 2s and an BSB (some drop the bsb) . Essentially it is load up on magic,and hope for gateway. No to compliment this people either go all cav/fast cav (see ben burns army that took 2nd at alamo) or the go with a chosen death star. The cav fast cav armies are better in the hands of very good players as the chosen death star is too slow, and most intelligent opponents will force you to draw with them.

Most books have a few builds that are competitive, and a few variations within those builds. Yes you will hear carebears tell you can put in whatever you want as long as you know how to use it, and this is true if you are playing other carebears. In Fantasy there are simply some units who are more cost effective/powerful if you can't evaluate these for yourself after attending 12 tournaments a year, may i suggest you get good at painting? or go for sportsman?

[cypher623]

thanks, very helpful

[cypher623]

There are a few warriors of chaos lists, but they are revovle around 1 level 4 2 level 2s and an BSB (some drop the bsb) . Essentially it is load up on magic,and hope for gateway. No to compliment this people either go all cav/fast cav (see ben burns army that took 2nd at alamo) or the go with a chosen death star. The cav fast cav armies are better in the hands of very good players as the chosen death star is too slow, and most intelligent opponents will force you to draw with them.

Most books have a few builds that are competitive, and a few variations within those builds. Yes you will hear carebears tell you can put in whatever you want as long as you know how to use it, and this is true if you are playing other carebears. In Fantasy there are simply some units who are more cost effective/powerful if you can't evaluate these for yourself after attending 12 tournaments a year, may i suggest you get good at painting? or go for sportsman?

Thank you very much for the first bit of the post. The last sentence could have been left out. I am new to this site and really don't know which LISTS some of these people are referring to.

[cypher623]

Not meaning to be unconstructive, but if you go to that many tournaments every year how can you not know the popular lists?

By way of constructive response. I do know which army lists do well at the tourneys. I do know the "popular" lists. If you read my post you would see I am trying to find out exactly which lists these fellows are referring to as "metagame lists".

[LoverzCry]

[QUOTE=Lord Azaghul;57104]psst, wrong game.QUOTE]


The **** you talking about? Talking about 40k D: Red bettahr.

[Nikephoros]

By way of constructive response. I do know which army lists do well at the tourneys. I do know the "popular" lists. If you read my post you would see I am trying to find out exactly which lists these fellows are referring to as "metagame lists".

If you know the "popular" lists then you know the "metagame" lists. That is the definition of metagame.

I did read your post, and what it sounds like to me is that you are lying. You are probably very new to the game, and very young, and you want someone to hand feed you an uber list so you can beat your other little kid friends.

Maybe I am way off, but I doubt it.

[cypher623]

If you know the "popular" lists then you know the "metagame" lists. That is the definition of metagame.

I did read your post, and what it sounds like to me is that you are lying. You are probably very new to the game, and very young, and you want someone to hand feed you an uber list so you can beat your other little kid friends.

Maybe I am way off, but I doubt it.

my god, what have I gotten into on this website???? Are the replies here all insults and one-upmanship??? I have played goatboy; I have won the sportsmanship award 1st place in the adepticon, took second last year with my son at the adepticon escalation, been to the aardboys with darkwynn; been to the fantasy ardboys with several bols guys. Why don't we just forget I ever posted this and you can run along and be a screwface to someone else. Better yet, just go be a screwface.

[Kahoolin]

my god, what have I gotten into on this website???? Are the replies here all insults and one-upmanship???Yeah pretty much. Boring isn't it?

[cypher623]

Yeah pretty much. Boring isn't it?

Tedious is more like it. My fifth post and suddenly I am a lying sixth grader. I hope that guy is not typical of this site, i know alot of the guys who post on the main site and expected better behavior.

[wittdooley]

Tedious is more like it. My fifth post and suddenly I am a lying sixth grader. I hope that guy is not typical of this site, i know alot of the guys who post on the main site and expected better behavior.

To be honest, I think some of those people were a bit incredulous at the ignorance of your posts. Bear in mind that I mean ignorance in a dictionary definition way and not an insulting way. Your IP did sound a bit like a kid going, "I know the answer, but I want to see if YOU know that answer" in order to actually GET the answer. More specifically, it sounds like you are fishing for that, and I'll quote you here, " that one strong WOC build. "


ANYWAYS, there are so many threads here with people *****ing back and forth about fantasy being broken/unbalanced or not. As a general consensus, it seems to be that the 'metagame' armies are VCs, WoC, Chaso Demons, and DE. They each have a lot of facets that make them quite tough to beat. Despite what some of the folks here have said, there ARE fantasy armies (the aforementioned) that absolutely curb stomp other armies and unlike 40k, where an older, out of date army like the Necrons can still be quite competitive in the hands of a skilled player, it just isn't the case in WHFB. You could stick someone relatively new to the strategy of the game (but knew the rules and understood them) with a strong WoC or DE build and a more seasoned player would have a ton of trouble against them using an OGRE Kingdoms army. It's just fact.

This is only one instance, but look at these completely random results I found from a Google search of WHFB GT 2009 results:



1 089 Corneel Bodar Chaos Deamons 0 14 22 17 78 131
2 098 Jeroen Stroomer Dark Elves 0 15 26 20 70 131
3 087 Sander Hodes Empire 0 13 30 17 70 130
4 092 Richard de Swaaf Vampire Counts 0 13 28 17 70 128
5 112 Arne Bijlard Chaos Deamons 0 15 20 17 72 124
6 095 Elwin Walraven Chaos Deamons 0 12 18 17 72 119
7 114 Jan v.d. Steen Vampire Counts 0 13 24 20 62 119
8 116 Jetro Dam Vampire Counts 0 11 24 17 66 118
9 084 Edwin de Vries Dark Elves 0 12 24 17 64 117
10 104 Ron Jansen Chaos Deamons 0 8 28 17 62 115


Those are you top 10 finishers. How many armies are there that I didn't list? One. I'd bet, without even seeing his list, that the Empire player is using 2 Steam Tanks. If he isn't, he's probably one of the more skilled players on that list, though I'll ALSO point out that his painting score (the third one over) is the highest on the list. Just food for thought.

Okay, so I've rambled enough. Just lemme say that don't be too discouraged by the other posts. It's the internet, so you can't exactly expect the best of manners. There are plenty of likable ladies and gents on here.

[Nikephoros]

my god, what have I gotten into on this website???? Are the replies here all insults and one-upmanship??? I have played goatboy; I have won the sportsmanship award 1st place in the adepticon, took second last year with my son at the adepticon escalation, been to the aardboys with darkwynn; been to the fantasy ardboys with several bols guys. Why don't we just forget I ever posted this and you can run along and be a screwface to someone else. Better yet, just go be a screwface.

I just dont get, with all those accomplishments and connections, why you are asking us for a list you should be able to recite from memory? I am nowhere near as accomplished at this game as you are, evidently, so you'll have to forgive me for presuming you're less than truthful when you ask a question that anyone with a casual interest in WHFB tournaments could answer from memory.

Like WTTdooley said, it appeared you were fishing in a child-like manner for someone to give you an uber list. And it still does, to be quite honest.

And I'll be a nice guy now and give you the list you want

L4 Tzeentch on disc
L2 Nurgle on steed
L2 Nurgle on Steed
3x 5 Marauder Cavalry Slaanesh
3x 5 Chaos Hounds
3x 5 Chaos Knights

[Lord Azaghul]

[QUOTE=Lord Azaghul;57104]psst, wrong game.QUOTE]


The **** you talking about? Talking about 40k D: Red bettahr.

This is a fantasy thread.

I was refering to your comparission of 40k as balanced to fantasy as balanced/unbalanced. I don't feel that refencing one game, has an argument for balance in the other is a solid way to go.
The game mechanized and score are very different.

[cypher623]

I just dont get, with all those accomplishments and connections, why you are asking us for a list you should be able to recite from memory? I am nowhere near as accomplished at this game as you are, evidently, so you'll have to forgive me for presuming you're less than truthful when you ask a question that anyone with a casual interest in WHFB tournaments could answer from memory.

Like WTTdooley said, it appeared you were fishing in a child-like manner for someone to give you an uber list. And it still does, to be quite honest.

And I'll be a nice guy now and give you the list you want

L4 Tzeentch on disc
L2 Nurgle on steed
L2 Nurgle on Steed
3x 5 Marauder Cavalry Slaanesh
3x 5 Chaos Hounds
3x 5 Chaos Knights

thanks for the reply. I have not seen that particular setup before at a tourney, but i could see how it would play. No, not fishing, really, there were several posts on this cite saying something like "Only one competative list can be made out of Chaos Warriors or there are only two lizardman builds that are competetive" I was just wanting to know what specific list was the only competive list or one of the two competative lists that might come out of a given book. Believe me, i am very familiar with the concept of the outdated books being hopelessly outclassed, I loooove night goblins, but i spent the 2008 tournament year trying to make that list work.

[Nikephoros]

...right...

[Randroid]

Play in Austin for long enough and you are bound to run into them (the lists I mean).

[cypher623]

...right...

Right??? Right??? Whatever Nike, like is said before I certainly hope everyone else on this website is not as worthless condescending as you..

[cypher623]

Play in Austin for long enough and you are bound to run into them (the lists I mean).

Yeah I played a couple of guys from Austin at the aardboys and ran into their Demons list. They were each playng the exact same list down to each model. I don't think that was really a metagamel list, just a magic beatdown list. Still very effective, I think the list wound up third (there were a few guys playing it) at the aardboys finals.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[cypher623]

Whilst I can completely understand your feelings towards some attitudes that have been put forward in this thread..... This is going too far.

I have read your thread from the beginning and whilst Ive had nothing to say (I don't play in tournaments) you have thus far come across as sensible and reasonable. It was a fair question.

But this? You've let yourself down.......



sorry, you are right, lost my temper, it was late, i edited..

[Joker's Wild]

The builds they refer to are also not point for point the same. It's just that the "only" consistently competitive lists from some army books have many of the same components.

The Warriors list from before could have various equipment on each character, one less unit of knights, or BSB and it's really still the same list because it wins in the same way. On the other hand a "chosen" bunker is another "semi"-competitive build that uses a big block of chosen and two shrines with favor of the gods on the unit champ. This chosen list can also have a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2s but wins in a different way.

I think everyone's confusion came from them playing in significantly less GTs a year and knowing dozens of general builds right off. Why the reaction was so strong I'm not sure, but that's how forums are. It's good to have you on the boards. Will you be out at Adepticon this year again? What part of the country do you live in?

[cypher623]

The builds they refer to are also not point for point the same. It's just that the "only" consistently competitive lists from some army books have many of the same components.

The Warriors list from before could have various equipment on each character, one less unit of knights, or BSB and it's really still the same list because it wins in the same way. On the other hand a "chosen" bunker is another "semi"-competitive build that uses a big block of chosen and two shrines with favor of the gods on the unit champ. This chosen list can also have a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2s but wins in a different way.

I think everyone's confusion came from them playing in significantly less GTs a year and knowing dozens of general builds right off. Why the reaction was so strong I'm not sure, but that's how forums are. It's good to have you on the boards. Will you be out at Adepticon this year again? What part of the country do you live in?

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I will be at Adepticon this year. I live in Louisiana, and our area doesn't have alot of gamers, which is why i travel so much, so there is no one here who really makes up or analyzes lists.

I do like the build you just mentioned about the block of choses w/ two shrines. I have never heard of it before and I have never seen it played. I am building/working on a Throgg list with a similar build, but using the trolls to take advantage of the eye of the gods. I have held off on it because of the limitations some tourneys have on special characters.

I am fiddling with a dark elf list for adepticon...executioners and cauldron. Not sure though.

[L192837465]

Yeah I played a couple of guys from Austin at the aardboys and ran into their Demons list. They were each playng the exact same list down to each model. I don't think that was really a metagamel list, just a magic beatdown list. Still very effective, I think the list wound up third (there were a few guys playing it) at the aardboys finals.

Actually, if you play in Austin enough, the lists we make end up on the internet.

Our Hobby tournaments are more hardcore than most GTs, and out-of-towners have attested to that.


Just to stay on topic:

Empire: popemobile, 2 stanks, 4 cannons
VC: Vamp lord, dickenhoff banner, 30 or so graveguard and a corpsecart or three
Deamons: damn near anything. The really bad one is Kiros (name right? I doubt it. named two headed tzeench GD), blue scribes, and khorne dogs is my most hated. along with flamers, of course.
Chaos: Gateway chosen deathstar. the fast cav one is far too fragile (any army with 3+ units of shooting will wipe that army out)
DE: 2 hydras, bunches of magic and 1-2 khaine things. Or the shadestar. 4 characters, an assasin, (including a bsb) and 45 shades
Ogres: most of the time they just lose.
Dwarfs: thorek gunline
Skaven: SAD is still there, but I don't think anyone is dick enough to actually play it.

That's about it that I can think of.

[Chumbalaya]

Metagaming is silly. You study your meta and bring a list that will upset it or whatever, but what are you really doing?

Playing rock paper scissors. You hope everyone brings rocks so you play paper, hoping that nobody brings scissors. It's not a very good idea. You can get some wins surprising bad players, if that's what does it for you, but there certainly isn't anything competitive about it. It's glorified list tailoring.

A balanced, flexible Fantasy army run by a good player can beat whatever "meta" you run up against. Rather than tailor to what it most likely and get curb stomped when somebody when brings scissors, just make an army that can take them all on.

Only bad armies have 1 or 2 competitive builds, typically outdated ones. VC and WoC are the big exceptions, being completely one dimensional noobslayers that are full of fail. Beyond them, O&G, OK, Empire, WE, and TK are all behind the curve and as a result have only a handful of good builds between them (mostly due to outdated rules or being one dimensional).

Daemons, HE, DE, Lizards, Beasts, Skaven, CD and Bretonnians are all solid, capable of fielding multiple good armies and are competitive in every phase of the game, making them very flexible.

So rather than tailor your list and run the risk of being out munchkin'd, just bring a balanced, flexible, competitive army, learn it inside and out and go forth to conquer.

[Odominus]

This thread is funny;)





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