Harlies with rangers or wraithguard?

[helline9]

Hi, my first army in 40k was Harlequins (2nd ed?) but the game has changed a lot since then. After playing 'Guard & Sisters for so long the opportunity to play my original army again has me 'giggling like a school girl' but given the amount of options and the fact that i haven't played Eldar in a very long time... i'm a little stumped on some stuff (mainly meta).

My idea is simple; i want to run a Harlequin army with Craftworld Eldar as allies as a all-comers type list for tournament play.


-The large Harlequin infantry squads making up the bulk of the army will be on foot (using Formations/ Detachment with the 'Rising Crescendo' special rule), with every unit having Haywire grenades. I was looking at using the Harlequin 'Light' Warlord table with a squads Troupe Master as my Warlord (aiming for 4+ results on the table).

With the Craftworld Eldar Allied detachment force my thoughts are either:
-Illic Nightspear with Pathfinders and Warwalkers (Scatter laser & Flakk missiles)
-or a Spiritseer with Wraithblades (Ghost axe/ Forceshields) and a Wraithknight.


The Warwalkers (theoretically) can deal with any flyer problem, and as they're each armed with a scatter laser and a variety of missiles they can have a go at almost anything. If they have the Ghostwalk matrix as well then the whole army with this build has Move through Cover, allowing me to camp in cover where available. Illic & Pathfinders gives me options to cause some ranged shenanigans such as removing special weapons & leadership boosting characters, granting Area denial, forcing moral checks when combining fire with Death jesters etc. The advantage of this force is that i have ranged units to off-set my melee Harlequins, the problem is that the whole army is fragile with a vulnerability to knights and psykers.

The idea of using the Wraithblades was to have them converted as 'creepy dolls' and used as a mobile wall to cover my Harlequins advance where needed. The Wraithknight (giant 'creepy doll') would be to deal with other knights or equivalent as well as being a great big distraction. A Spirtseer also grants more Warp Charge points for Deny the Witch tests when combined with Shadowseers. The problem with this build is that my army becomes even more melee based than Harlequins alone are with no way of dealing with flyers or fast armies, however it does give me access to tougher units to tie things up with.

Note; The Pathfinders and Wraithblades are both troops choices granting the option for Objective Secured if i choose and by allying with Craftworld Eldar i can possibly add another squad of Harlequins as well (though at reduced ability).


So what do people think and which do people think would be better; using snipers or 'creepy dolls' as allies?

[ShadowcatX]

In a tournament setting? Neither. Rangers are 100% unplayable, and wraithblades are just bad.

[helline9]

If not use either of those choices, what from the Craftworld Eldar codex as an allied detachment would you add to a Harlequin army?

I've see a lot of people want to add a small amount of Harlequins to Dark Eldar raider-lance spam armies to use as a replacement for wyches but that's not the direction i want to go. There is the idea of a heavy psyker list using telepathy/ phantasmancy with mask of secrets but you can do that with just a lot of shadowseers anyway (the only thing you get from allied craftworld eldar pskers that you couldn't get without them would be more warp charge points). Adding things like banshees or scorpions would be a waste as Harlequins are already a melee army, fire dragons & wraithguard are too slow on foot (compared to the speed of Harlequins) ...having the fire dragons doing drive-bys from starweavers ok maybe (wraithguard are too bulky for starweavers). Dire avengers or guardians; what for ..to be defensive? if your being defensive with Eldar your probably doing it wrong (at a guess as you guys probably have more experience than me). Yes things like wraithknights are nice but to take an allied detachment you need a troop and a HQ to go with it.

[ShadowcatX]

The eldar's commonly accepted best troop option is a min sized squad of dire avengers in a wave serpent with scatter lasers and shuriken cannon. After that is guardian jetbikes as cheap and fast objective grabbers. The recent adaptations in the meta may make guardians superior to dire avengers, I'm not sure.

[helline9]

thank you for the replies, the more information and opinions the more it helps.

i did some more reading and yes wave serpent spam using the scatter laser for rerolls on both the shuriken cannon AND serpent shield seams to be a common tactic and very effective. Basically the dire avengers are there to purchase the wave serpent as a transport (which also allows the wave serpent to hold objectives), the longer range avenger shuriken catapult is generally why they where purchased over the guardians as i understand.
jetbikes: yes fast troops choice to grab objectives late game (being eldar they can't defend very well thus why its a late game grab ...which could be very interesting when added to; (4) narrator of wars on the twilight harlequin warlord table. narrator of wars allows you to +2 or -2 to the roll for variable game length! not having fun, spread the bikes out and end the game. lol) The jetbikes aren't that useful in a harlequin army as harlequins don't have objective secured at all so your forced to go for the kill not objectives, kill solutions are better in this instance and craftworld jetbikes aren't going to do it.

The thing is i'm looking at not adding harlequins to a eldar force but adding craftworld eldar to a harlequin force which is quite different. For example; in a standard eldar force rangers are terrible as they are static and expensive when compared to guardians. Being equipped with a sniper rifle makes battle focus on them is pointless as they can't keep up with the rest of the eldar force due to the weapon being heavy. However when added to harlequins that can fleet, run & charge all in the same turn with move through cover and can hit and run eldar units won't be able to keep up with the harlequins anyway unless they're doing drive-byes from starweavers. Obviously the best unit to doing drive-byes from starweavers is fire dragons, my problem with this is 2 fold; a.) the starweavers don't have a reliable way to scout, deepstrike, infiltrate or outflank. They don't even have skilled rider which would have helped, they have to charge up the field (using their one use 4++ save on the way) to hopefully pop tanks & transports at the same time as the rest of the harlequins get there without being destroyed in the process. b.) as eldar units can't keep pace with harlequins then i'm looking for a long ranged solution, a static fire base that can open fire from first turn, this unlike in a eldar army brings rangers back as a possibility for the allied troops choice in my opinion. (in case your still thinking wave serpents are the go remember that you can only bring one.. maybe two wave serpents and they are most effective in mass)


my new thoughts are; adding a shadowseer (with veil of tears psychic power) to each ranger and dark reaper squads with either;
-a farseer (for divination powers on the dark reapers/ rangers or telepathy (to add to shadowseer phantasmancy tricks) and extra warp charge points making the harlequin troupes shadowseers veil of tears more reliable) or

-illic nightspear (adding him to the dark reapers gives them infiltrate and shroud, and they grant him slow & purposeful as well as the ability to ignore jink saves. He also can upgrade the rangers to have shroud & precision shots without being in their squad if i choose)

[helline9]

In case anyone was thinking of the wraithguard with harlequins you could kind of do it with the harlequin 'cast of players' formation as it grants all eldar & dark eldar units within 6" (ie: wraithguards) crusader rule allowing for re-rolls on run moves (and access to stealth & shroud from phantasmancy).
an Iyanden wraith army with 'cast of players' formations anyone?

not the way i want to go but an interesting thought.

[ShadowcatX]

i did some more reading and yes wave serpent spam using the scatter laser for rerolls on both the shuriken cannon AND serpent shield seams to be a common tactic and very effective. Basically the dire avengers are there to purchase the wave serpent as a transport (which also allows the wave serpent to hold objectives), the longer range avenger shuriken catapult is generally why they where purchased over the guardians as i understand.

Actually it is because 5 dire avengers is cheaper than 10 guardians.



jetbikes: yes fast troops choice to grab objectives late game (being eldar they can't defend very well thus why its a late game grab ...which could be very interesting when added to; (4) narrator of wars on the twilight harlequin warlord table. narrator of wars allows you to +2 or -2 to the roll for variable game length! not having fun, spread the bikes out and end the game. lol) The jetbikes aren't that useful in a harlequin army as harlequins don't have objective secured at all so your forced to go for the kill not objectives, kill solutions are better in this instance and craftworld jetbikes aren't going to do it.

Wrong again. Harlequins won't have objective secured, but the eldar jetbikes will.


The thing is i'm looking at not adding harlequins to a eldar force but adding craftworld eldar to a harlequin force which is quite different. For example; in a standard eldar force rangers are terrible as they are static and expensive when compared to guardians. Being equipped with a sniper rifle makes battle focus on them is pointless as they can't keep up with the rest of the eldar force due to the weapon being heavy. However when added to harlequins that can fleet, run & charge all in the same turn with move through cover and can hit and run eldar units won't be able to keep up with the harlequins anyway unless they're doing drive-byes from starweavers. Obviously the best unit to doing drive-byes from starweavers is fire dragons, my problem with this is 2 fold; a.) the starweavers don't have a reliable way to scout, deepstrike, infiltrate or outflank. They don't even have skilled rider which would have helped, they have to charge up the field (using their one use 4++ save on the way) to hopefully pop tanks & transports at the same time as the rest of the harlequins get there without being destroyed in the process. b.) as eldar units can't keep pace with harlequins then i'm looking for a long ranged solution, a static fire base that can open fire from first turn, this unlike in a eldar army brings rangers back as a possibility for the allied troops choice in my opinion. (in case your still thinking wave serpents are the go remember that you can only bring one.. maybe two wave serpents and they are most effective in mass)

Actually, rangers are bad because they are bad, not because they can't keep up. Mathmatically, rangers are poor because a guardian will put out significantly more wounds across the board than a ranger will, despite the ranger being significantly more expensive. Also, you can bring harlequins as your primary detachment and eldar as a secondary cad which would allow as many wave serpents as you could afford.

But it sounds like your mind is made up, you're going to use rangers and that's that. And you know what? That's fine. You won't win as often but that's your choice.

[Captain Bubonicus]

I hate to add another option, but I noticed the other day that I still have a BUNCH of old 2nd edition Dark Reapers...

I was kicking around the idea of backing up a force of Harlequins with 3 good-sized squads of Reapers for long-range fire support. Haven't priced 'em out yet, but if I buy the S8 missiles for 'em, they could engage power-armored infantry or medium armor as needed.

So...just to muddle the stew some more.

[ShadowcatX]

Dark Reapers are an odd place, they are good offensively, but they cost too much for how fragile they are. However, with Harlequins, you're going to have a lot of fragile, expensive units already, so dark reapers may be able to dodge being the first one targeted.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Dark Reapers are an odd place, they are good offensively, but they cost too much for how fragile they are. However, with Harlequins, you're going to have a lot of fragile, expensive units already, so dark reapers may be able to dodge being the first one targeted.

Oh, yeah - at 30 points a pop bare naked, they sure get pricey quickly.

[Vashones]

I actually like Wraithblades with the axe and shield. They are a tough unit that can take a hit with T6 and 4++ save and they will stick in combat, which can be a problem as they only have 1 attack. But, put a Shadowseer and the unit has Hit and Run to bounce out. The problem is they are slow, so so slow. The runes of Battle power Quicken helps though. I run them in blobs of 8-10 on foot. A Spirit seer or two with a Shadowseer and you can cast Psychic Shrieks and the Harlie leadership powers. I like that its a tough unit to compliment the fragile Harlies.

But, you will need some speed, so a Windrider squad helps a lot. Wraithknights or Wave Serpents with Dire Avengers are also nice options as they are the best units in the book and the Serpent shield has pinning to maybe help with overwatch that will kill your clowns.

Rangers though... yeah, I can't get them to work for me.

[helline9]

7th is suppose to be more integrated with units across different books than what we where used to in say 5th. If that's what its meant to be there has to be a way to have this change of mind set work for harlies (but then i might be also wasting my time). so yer standard eldar tactics don't work that well with Harlequins, what i'm trying to find is the the eldar units that while aren't that effective in a eldar list have a greater place with Harlequins. an example maybe Dark Reapers...


Dark Reapers are an odd place, they are good offensively, but they cost too much for how fragile they are. However, with Harlequins, you're going to have a lot of fragile, expensive units already, so dark reapers may be able to dodge being the first one targeted.
I'm thinking Dark reapers will be a lot harder to deal with when they have the Veil of Tears psychic power (and possibly Dance of Shadows). They are expensive though! still with a Shadowseer they can't be shot at a distances greater than charge range (on average)... that's looking a little better.

If you worried about Dark Reapers getting assaulted you could also keep the Solitaire back as a counter-assault unit. Sure probably not the best use of the Solitaire but he does have a standard 30" threat range (using the masque detachment) and if's late in the game and you need him to get his points back then blitz ... again just throwing ideas around. (though things like Hell Drakes are going to be more of a worry to Dark Reapers than assaults)


I actually like Wraithblades with the axe and shield. They are a tough unit that can take a hit with T6 and 4++ save and they will stick in combat, which can be a problem as they only have 1 attack. But, put a Shadowseer and the unit has Hit and Run to bounce out. The problem is they are slow, so so slow. The runes of Battle power Quicken helps though. I run them in blobs of 8-10 on foot. A Spirit seer or two with a Shadowseer and you can cast Psychic Shrieks and the Harlie leadership powers. I like that its a tough unit to compliment the fragile Harlies.
yer having a tough unit or 2 to offset the delicate harlies is what i was thinking too... but way too slow, pitty they won't fit in Starweavers to assault from. Note that with the Death Jester 'death is not enough' special rule you can force the enemy units to move towards your units, effectively shortening the distance for your charge ranges and psychic powers. Like all Harlequins he also has Hit & Run and his cannon is an assault weapon.



Rangers though... yeah, I can't get them to work for me.
Any idea with Rangers got nerfed when i came across the errata that states that you can't join a non-infiltrating IC to a infiltrating unit, or a infiltrating IC to a non-infiltrating unit. (stops people using using illic & rangers as a delivery method to start with and can't add Death jesters or give then any 'effects this psyker and his unit' stuff if you wanted to) So yer they can sit at the back of the table and be annoying but their usefulness has dropped a lot. Pity that the Ranger long rifle isn't sniper with salvo 1/2. Still only 60pts with long ranged weapons so you can spend more points on expensive eldar heavy support and elites...

[helline9]

Craftworld Eldar Allied Detachment for a Harlequin Masque Primary Detachment. Army total: 1850 points.

H.Q.
-Farseer.
+25pts of gear
Elite
-Fire Dragons. (5 man)
Troops (1)
-Rangers. (5 man)
Heavy support
-Dark Reapers. (5 man)
+5 Starshot Missiles

Total Allied Detachment: 495 points
(due to the compulsory units in the Masque detachment, 500 points is about max for allies)

Plan is:
-put Fire Dragons in a Starweaver transport,
-attach a Shadowseer (with Veil of Tears power) to the Dark Reapers.
-Farseer can go with the Dark Reapers to increase their weapon effectiveness with Divination or go with Fire Dragons for more Psychic Shrieking
-Rangers are basically a 60pt tax, but they could be replaced with a 3-man Windrider squad with a Shuriken cannon for 61pts.

Mind you ...you could have a CAD (as an allied force) with:
H.Q.
-Farseer.
+25pts of gear
Troops (2)
-Windrider squad A (3 man)
-Windrider squad B (3 man)
Heavy support (2)
-Dark Reapers. A (4 man)
+4 Starshot Missiles
-Dark Reapers. B (4 man)
+4 Starshot Missiles

Plan is:
-attach a Shadowseer (with Veil of Tears power) to each of the Dark Reapers.
-Farseer can go with one of the Dark Reapers to increase their weapon effectiveness with Divination
-the two 3-man Windrider squads are basically a 102pt tax but 2 squads of Dark Reapers each with a Shadowseer
!

[deinol]

I have been having good luck with my list. Fully loaded cegorach's revenge formation. 5 man squads, one fusion pistol each. Eldar allied detachment with Spirit Seer, five wraithblades, and a wraith lord.

Put a squad and a Deathjester in each star weaver. Put the spirit seer and all shadowseers with the wraithblades. Have at least one telepath and one phatomamcy.

When playing maelstrom missions, even when I nearly die, my speed keeps me high in points.

[helline9]

well the new Craftworld book changes things;
Aspect warrior formation.
3 x Dark Reaper squads (must take exarch for each, which is not a bad thing)
formation grants +1 BS & re-roll moral, fear, pinning tests.