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Oberst Viktor Morte
02-23-2010, 01:06 PM
Well, for no small amount of time I've been working on a custom codex for Warhammer 40,000, and while I've had a thread on Warseer for a while, I decided to go ahead and make one here. Initially starting out as the SAD 22nd Regiment, I wanted to make a high-tech Guard army, based on a combination of the British SAS and Heinlein's suits of powered armour. I added some more units, and soon decided to completely revamp the background, making them instead a completely new race.

Leaving on a colony ship during the Dark Age of Technology, they founded Kae'Moda before the Emperor began the Great Crusade, and have managed to survive untill current times, through thick and thin. The specifics of the army are constantly changing, but the general concept has remained the same for quite some time, and will remain as such. They are a group of humans not part of the Imperium who embrace technology, rather than shun it.

They have lots of elite infantry, many advanced AI controled units, and still one of my favourites, the giant suits of powered armour. Now, due to reasons beyond my control, I've had to start over on the codex entirely multiple times, and right now I'm working on the fourth version of the .pdf. This is the newest version of the codex with the most up to date rules and fluff, from Scribd:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57720237

As a fair bit of warning, the codex is now up to 63 pages and almost 24mb, so it's starting to get a bit large. Furthermore, it is still a work in progress, so some of the pages are either incomplete or even mostly empty.

I am completely open to any and all ideas, suggetions, comments, or criticisms that you may have. The codex is constantly under editting (when I get around to it), and so your ideas can very easily make it into the book. Thank you in advance for all of your help, or very simply for just reading it. Most of all, I hope that you simply enjoy the work that I have put into it.

Also, check out the main hosting location here:
http://pagexcellence.forums-free.com/codex-kaemoda-republic-t62.html

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-23-2010, 01:07 PM
And while I'm at it, I've been working on remaking the history but have not yet typed it up in full in the .pdf. Let me know what you think of the rough outline of the new version of the history:

~M23 Group of colony ships set out to the Alba Cluster. These are corporate owned, and sent off with the intent of founding a new empire.

~M26 Ships settle across the Alba Cluster, Kae'Moda founded. Nearby colony of Etrui rapidly expands and spreads a sphere of influence over other colonies, including the Kae'Moda. It is in this time frame that psykers and Warp anomalies begin to appear, albeit only in minor instances.

~M27-30 The Etrui begin wars against Chaos, and during this the Kae'Moda seize territory and their independence from the Etrui. The Kae'Moda then proceed to fight a number of wars, winning and losing, against the Etrui, Chaos, and the other corporate colonies. This results in the Kae'Moda establishing their own sphere of influence and forming themselves into a Republic.

~M30 The Great Crusade comes to the Alba Cluster with a small contingent of Word Bearers and the Imperial Army. They start to fight against Chaos and the colonies but are ultimately defeated. The Horus Heresy prevents a larger fleet from returning the destroy the already devastated Republic.

~M31 Chaos Warband seizes opportunity and invades Kae'Moda space. With little left to defend with, many systems are lost and even Kae'Moda Prime is sacked. It takes over a thousand years to eliminate the warband, reclaim and rebuild to how things were before the Great Crusade.

~M33-35 The first of the Xeno-Wars begin as Kae'Moda consolidates colonies under their rule officially and begin to expand into nearby space. In this time three successive wars are fought against an alien empire known as the Hadast, resulting in Xenocide. This is also the first recorded encounters with the Eldar and Orks.

~M35 Upstart politician Theodore Sempronius takes land, power from Corporations and gave it to the common man. Previously, corporations effectively ran governments and armies, leaving the people in squalor. He was later assassinated, as well as his brother who a few years later continued this platform.

~M35 Politician and Marshal Frederick Marcus reforms and standardizes military, and then defeats a looming Chaos warband. Despite his great achievements, his patron is arrested and Marcus is forced into exile.

~M35 Cornelius Felix goes off to campaign against biomechanical Xenos, known as the Kushiel, augmented by the development of reliable faster than light travel. While Felix is away, Marcus returns from exile with a small army and sieges the capitol, gaining rule of the Republic, but dies shortly thereafter. After victory against buy not conquering Xenos, Felix returns and takes power for himself, then assassinating political opponents openly.

~M36 In the wake of political instability for some time, three politicians form a Triumvirate to ensure peace. Gnaeus builds a large fleet and eliminates a recent plague of piracy. Tiberius campaigns against Chaos, removing them as a significant threat in the future. Tiberius returns with his army and demands governmental reform, civil war breaks out. Gnaeus is ultimately defeated, fleeing to allied Xenos (Axg'typ) who betray him. Tiberius annexes Xenos, proclaims himself Dictator until reforms have been made. Assassinated by Senate, who fear losing their power.

~M36 A second Triumvirate is formed, including Tiberius's heir Lucius and his Lieutenant Anthony. At first they work together, avenging Tiberius and killing his assassins/conspirators. Both feel the right to rule and a second civil war breaks out, ending in a great naval battle. Lucius the Vindicator carries out progressive reforms started by Tiberius, and even reforms the Republic into an Empire, ruled by succession of chosen heirs appointed by previous ruler.

~M37-41 Second Xeno-Wars begin after further reformation of army with improved technology and tactics. First major wars with Orks begin, some Orks allowed to settle in Kae'Moda sphere of influence. First incidence of Tyrands reported. Era marked by slow, deliberate expansion.

~M38 Civil Strife and stagnation lead to another Civil War, with the royal guard deposing of the depraved Emperor. Government reformed with Legislative body representing districts based on population and GPD. Dictator may still be appointed by Senate in times of need.

~M39 Contact regained with Imperium of Man, relations mixed as both wish to absorb population of other.

~M40 Tyrands start to appear in greater number, still limited to mostly fleet engagements.

~M40-41 Waaagh Alboyz makes number of successive raids, pressured from enemy on other side of their territory. Allegedly want Kae'Moda protection and citizenship, but this translates into invading, which is seen as a hostility.

~M40 Kae'Moda reaches its Westernmost expansion to a Region known as the Mare Magnus, or the Null Zone.

~M41 Eldar Warships emerge at same time as Necrons in Hopper system. After initial conflict, Eldar and Kae'Moda forces begin to work together to combat Necrons threat.

~M41 Tyranid bioships start entering Kae'Moda territory en masse. A number of fleets and star systems have already been destroyed. Succession of counter-attacks made, but direct assaults against main fleets thus far unsuccessful. Fauve system holding off Tyranids whilst systems around them have been destroyed.

~M41 Imperium launches small Crusade to protect nearby Imperial habitations against Tyranids. Begin fighting with and against Kae'Moda. Inquisitorial authorities notified of non-Imperial humans on Eastern Fringe with sizable empire.

sirrouga
02-23-2010, 03:46 PM
Amazing work there. The concepts are really well done, granted a lot is taken from multiple sourced (Codex:Combine anyone?). Very unique and has a design with a mix of Imperial Guard and Tau Empire. However it is a bit difficult to see which way you take that, some things seems very Tau empire while others are more based on IG standards.

First off, summary pages are practically required. With all the weapons, special equipment, and special rules available it makes trying to figure everything out that much harder. There is so many special equipment options it gets bogged down really quickly.

Plus many lines of descriptions can be removed and just replaced with special rules or point to the main rule book. For example, Defensive Grenades don't really need an entire paragraph. "The counts as having defensive grenades." is all you really need. The GEP SSW can drop the two lines detailing pinning tests, and just add Pinning to the weapon type. Marauder Suits move like Jump Infantry is an other one for example too. There are a few more but I'll leave it at that.

I think a lot of the stat lines need to be adjusted a bit as well. Seems like practically everything is BS 4 or 5 with exception of the standard troops (and their sergeants are BS 4). Now you could say that their advanced technology improves their BS however even the Tau Empire is standard BS3 but have other means to improve that, which makes more sense to me. Even your Machine Guns are better than what IG and even Space Marines can put out. Take the Faust HMG for example, longer range and move shots than the Heavy Bolter but practically the same else wise. Or take the GEP SSW, while it doesn't have amazing strength or AP but this thing has a lot of shots, causes pinning, and can be fired on the move at still good range for an assault weapon.

Also, the vast majority of your vehicles have back armor 11. Even in their weakest point they are still immune to strength 4 attacks seems a bit much, especially since the only vehicle that has back armor better than 10 is the Land Raider. Especially since the majority of you vehicles are either fast skimmers or walkers which don't really need (or should really have in my opinion) improved back armor.

Alright to more specific stuff. Can't really get to everything right off the bat so I'll just go over a few things here and there.

Lets take your Troop choice first (ignoring the other Troops that become available through special characters). The Regulars seem to be worked off a smaller IG platoon but with better gear. First the rules for Platoon are quite vague, do they all start as one giant blob and then split up as the game goes? Does the Command Fire Team start in the giant unit as well? Do their veteran skills work on a Fire Team or everyone in the same giant unit? I would just do a copy and paste of the IG Platoon rules if that was what you were after. Plus when are the Veteran abilities applied? Is it just as things happen or at the start of the turn?

Lets go more in depth with just the standard Regulars Rifleman FireTeam. These are a smaller Infantry Squad with better wargear. Practically armed with Boltgun (with 1 worse AP value) and Carapace armor. 8 points per model seems alright considering they are IG Guard stat lines (I would keep the sergeant BS3 as well, just so you don't have to single him out when rolling every shooting phase). Your costs on grenades is a bit much, 3 points per model for offensive grenades is really high especially since these things are given out like candy now. Defensive Grenades are harder to judge prices on since they are a bit more rare.

I'll go more in depth with other stuff an other time. Need to take a break for a bit. :P

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-23-2010, 04:25 PM
First off, thank you very much for your response and advice. I'd like to say also that I've been working on this for over two years, and have tried to make as much of it original content as possible. Even things like the Marauder suits which parallel the Tau Crisis suits were derived independently and just ended up similar. And now to address parts of your post in specific.

I, being the creator and knowing everything I've made, haven't really seen the need for a summary. However, upon your mentioning of it and my realization of the need, it'll be the first thing I work on when I get a chance. (I'm either at my parents home where I can work on the .pdf or my girlfriends apartment where I have the internet. Until this fall, that is.) Also, the need for simplification is not something I really realized, and will strive to work on that as well.

The relative strength of the stats is something that I've heard before, and I've made effort to reduce strength of models without taking away from the character of the unit. Oftentimes though people are unable to make real constructive advice on how to go about it. And this is precisely why I enjoy going out and having other people look at it, as that every people is able to give a new and different insight.

In regards to the Rear AV of vehicles, I think that's something easily done. However, of course some will stay heavily armoured. The Stalker which is an armoured buggy is currently 12-11-11, but I think that 11-10-10 would probably be more appropriate, with a price reduction.

The Regulars were an effort to create a more 'realistic' Troops choice, with smaller groups of men and more heavy and special weapons. However, there have been confusions on the rules for them before, and so I'm going to throw out a few ideas on how to improve upon them here:
- New rule states that all Fireteams must be within 6" of another Fireteam, and if further away must move back in coherency, just as normal squad 2" coherency. A Platoon consists of 1 Command and 2-6 Regular Fireteams.
- Veteran Skills are simply done away with as that they are too convoluted, especially with all the other special rules and units in the codex. These are just the basic Troops and this is unnecessary. Platoons may still take upgrades.
- All models are reduced to BS3 except for the Lieutenant who has BS4. Similarly, all models are reduced to WS3.
- Storm rifle changed to S4 AP-

Alternatively, I could scrap them entirely and replace them with two new Troops choice, one more akin to Grenadiers, and the other with a more 'Rangers' feel, with lighter armour and designed to be more mobile. I personally have never really liked the Regulars, and regarded them more as something that you have to take, rather than something you'd want to, so I personally have no problem with just up and replacing them.

At any rate, you post has given me a great deal of food for thought (more than I was expecting, honestly). I'm looking forward to hearing what else you have to say. Thanks once again for commenting.

Nabterayl
02-23-2010, 04:30 PM
I'll try to get to units in more detail as well, but in the meantime, let me second Sirrouga's point about Ballistic Skill. Fire caste training practically ignores not only close combat but even CQB, and it takes a fire warrior a minimum of 12 years of service as a full-time professional soldier to achieve BS4. Imperial Guardsmen can apparently serve for their entire lives and never achieve BS5. Space marines too can be veterans of over a hundred drops without achieving BS5.

EDIT: The point of watching how high you let the skill stats get isn't really so much about units being "overpowered" so much as maintaining a congruent feel with the rest of the game. If I were designing 40K from scratch, ballistic skills would take advantage of the ability to go up to 10, because that feels more right to me on the tabletop. But since that isn't how other codices were written, I find it useful to look at BS and WS from a comparative fluff standpoint, and from a comparative fluff standpoint, very impressive levels of lethality are properly represented by BS/WS3.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-23-2010, 04:49 PM
I see your point. However, I'd like to maintain that most of the army should be BS4 due to advanced targetting systems and that they are either special forces-esque troops or an AI construct. On the note of BS5 or higher, the only models to have that are special characters, veteran officers of the entire army (is not a Chapter Master BS5?), or the Marauder Lieutenants, which are veteran officers. And that was done rather than to give them an extra attack, giving them a more unique feel not seen anywhere else, since the Kae'Moda abandon close combat. Should these models (special characters aside) be reduced down to BS4 as well?

Madness
02-23-2010, 04:54 PM
Oberst, would you mind placing the pdfs on scribd too?

Nabterayl
02-23-2010, 05:13 PM
With regard to the Regulars ...

I like what you're going for - infantry that actually fight like infantry ought to fight on a battlefield populated with automatic weapons - and I think some of the confusion may actually be pretty easy to clear up.

For instance, when you say "deployed as one unit," what does that actually mean? This isn't 4th edition, where we alternate deploying units. It sounds like you mean:
Platoons are rolled for collectively when rolling for Reserves,
Each platoon is a single Force Organization Chart choice, and
Each fireteam is an individual unit.
If I got that right, you could just say that, and I think it would be a lot clearer.

Questions:
EDIT: Ah, I see how Veteran Skills works now. Models with the "Veteran Skills" rule may purchase a specialist upgrade, and apply that bonus either to their own unit or a unit within 6". Gotcha.

Who precisely are these guys, sociologically? Your fluff makes it sound like they're full-time professional soldiers but don't necessarily see a lot of action. This makes me question two things:
How does one get assigned to a platoon command fireteam? From the sound of things, getting assigned to a regulars platoon from one of the other specialties would actually be a demotion, so where are these guys getting their veteran skills and statlines from?
Where do regulars draw their officers and NCOs from? Again, it sounds like they tend to come from the ranks of the regulars themselves - and if the regulars are really only called up for the largest operations, where are sergeants and lieutenants getting their veteran skills and statlines from?

Why do veteran regulars get better gear, and access to more options, than regular regulars? The standard 40K hodgepodge of gear doesn't really sound like the way you think of the Republic's forces operating. All of the gear you describe in your armoury sounds like production model stuff, so does it really fit the aesthetic of the Republic's armed forces to, say, issue one man a flechette rifle? The squad support weapons I can see, but flechettes? And what exactly is about a command fireteam's battlefield role that makes it okay for them to have Avenger rifles, but not okay for their platoon to have Avengers? I mean, doctrinally, who's supposed to do the heavy lifting here? Isn't it the regular fireteams?

This sort of materiel doctrine makes sense for most other races in the universe. The Imperium is intentionally written as riddled with backwards policies, orks explicitly "issue" war materiel according to capitalist principles, eldar and the fire caste both have a movie samurai's obsession with the honor represented by a weapon, etc. But if the point of the Republic is to present a more rational approach to warfighting, the division of weaponry between the command fireteam and the regulars makes no sense to me, unless I seriously mistake the doctrines of the Republic's armed forces.

Rather than the standard "command units get more gear because they're VIPs" approach, can I suggest letting any fireteam replace its storm rifles for other combat rifles (the Avenger, the flechette rifle), and make the various squad support weapons (flamethrower, optic rifle, micro-ripper, Gep, missile launcher, Faust, Pilum) a 1-per-team option? Let the regular fireteams have access to the heavier firepower, while the command fireteam is distinguished by its access to specialists, the laser designator, and its "veteran skills," which sound like your version of orders.

Response:

I see your point. However, I'd like to maintain that most of the army should be BS4 due to advanced targetting systems and that they are either special forces-esque troops or an AI construct. On the note of BS5 or higher, the only models to have that are special characters, veteran officers of the entire army (is not a Chapter Master BS5?), or the Marauder Lieutenants, which are veteran officers. And that was done rather than to give them an extra attack, giving them a more unique feel not seen anywhere else, since the Kae'Moda abandon close combat. Should these models (special characters aside) be reduced down to BS4 as well?
Advanced targeting systems are all well and good, but that wasn't really made clear to me. If you're married to that idea, I'd suggest that you bring it out a bit more in the fluff. Perhaps even go so far as to make it a free piece of wargear, so some models get BS3(4) for free? That would make it really clear what you're talking about.

Also, this goes back to my earlier point about sociology, but what is your actual justification for giving your officers very high Ballistic Skills? Space marine captains lead and command from the front lines, and there's only one career path in a space marine chapter, which means that all captains have (i) personally participated in a lot of actual infantry combat and (ii) put in a really over-the-top amount of training. Similarly, Tau commanders fight on the line, and career advancement is explicitly predicated on demonstrated personally lethality.

So if I can pose a question to you: how is the Republic's military structured? It sounds like very few officers work their way up from private (as is the case with both space marines and tau)? Is every major or colonel expected to fight on the front line? For that matter, are company commanders expected to be at the forefront of every attack, literally using their personal weapon? Is advancement to the rank of major or colonel (or indeed, even captain) explicitly predicated, even in part, on an officer's ability to personally kill things?

My suspicion, based on the overall feel you seem to be going for here, is that the answer to these questions (except possibly the first) is no. If so, I think it's worth recognizing that that is very different from every other army in the game (except for the Imperial Guard, whose codex does not present us with major or colonel equivalents). In most militaries today, being able to shoot exceptionally well counts for very little when it comes to officer promotion. Some services won't promote you (or even keep you) if you don't have a minimum level of personal combat proficiency, and platoon and company commanders are not likely to be respected if they never or rarely lead from the front. However, being rated an expert marksman is not likely to increase your chances of promotion much, and if a lieutenant routinely leads his platoon into battle I don't think anybody is likely to care very much if he doesn't always lead the kill tally.

By contrast, if a tau is not a personal badass in his battlesuit, he doesn't get to achieve command, even if he is a brilliant commander, because he won't pass his third Trial by Fire. If a space marine is not a personal badass in combat, he won't get appointed to command positions by his superiors. Does the Republic's military really work the same way?

sirrouga
02-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Keep in mind these are just my opinions so if you feel like you really like the way they came out they by all means go with it.



- New rule states that all Fireteams must be within 6" of another Fireteam, and if further away must move back in coherency, just as normal squad 2" coherency. A Platoon consists of 1 Command and 2-6 Regular Fireteams.
This would be a good idea but Kill Points would be a huge issue since each troop choice is given 3 - 7 Kill Points and each Kill Point is just 5 models with a 4+ armor save. Not sure of a really balanced way to do this yet, need more time to really think on that one. I may even say to just drop the Command Team from this choice and just have additional choices for Fire Teams possible.


- Veteran Skills are simply done away with as that they are too convoluted, especially with all the other special rules and units in the codex. These are just the basic Troops and this is unnecessary. Platoons may still take upgrades.
Some of the veteran skills are fine, just the ones that affect other teams bought some confusion. Could simply just make them only work with the Command Team.


Alternatively, I could scrap them entirely and replace them with two new Troops choice, one more akin to Grenadiers, and the other with a more 'Rangers' feel, with lighter armour and designed to be more mobile. I personally have never really liked the Regulars, and regarded them more as something that you have to take, rather than something you'd want to, so I personally have no problem with just up and replacing them.
The Regular FireTeam has a good place in the army in my opinion, just need a little work yet. However I did notice that several of the Special Characters allow certain Elites to be taken as Troop Choices. Perhaps of having this as special character only rules, instead have an overall special rule that allows you to pick Black Berets, Special Intelligence, OR Force Reconnaissance units as Troop choices. This gives other options for Troop choices are still allows the same options that the special characters would be given you in the first place. Maybe even have this as an upgrade the Command Squad if points are worth considering. An other idea would be for every Rifleman Fire Team you take, you can take a Black Berets or Force Reconnaissance unit as a troop choice.

As for the whole BS thing, Imperial Guard do have access to Veterans with BS4 so it wouldn't too far off to say the same for your own army. BS 3(4) would make more sense in terms of wargear providing the bonus but I don't really think that matters in the end. BS 5 should be rare and only available to their top of the top ranks. So keep your new soldiers at BS3, Veterans at BS4, and the best of the best at BS5. Keep in mind, the Imperial Guard only has like 4 or 5 models with BS5 and all but one are special characters. Could always include war gear that allows you to reroll any "1's" in the the shooting phase if you want to tip up their BS without going to the next level.


However onto some other things I noticed while reading the codex...

- Black Berets Shaped Charges: I think it would be easier to just have these work as standard melta bombs instead of the manual charge. I also think their Covert Op rule might be an issue especially if area terrain isn't available. I think Infiltrate and/or Deep Striking would be better suited here (especially if they can be taken as troops).

- Tyranid Hunters: Personally I think units designed to only counter one specific race are a bad idea. Just make their Conflagance Missile accessible for most units. Outside of Tyranids, they are a costly unit with counter attack and WS4 which doesn't really fit the rest of the army too well.

- Revenants and Intrepid Battle Walker are listed as Walkers but have no WS, S, I, or A listed in their stats.

- Zero Troopers can be reworded from "For every 2 models, you may take 1 special weapon" to "Up to 4 models may take special weapons", since squad size can not be changed in this unit. Also these guys are listed to have Power Armor, they should be listed with their Zero Gravity Suit. Speaking of which, a slow and purposeful unit armed with multiple heavy weapons and can move like jump infantry once per game is a really sick deal.

- Marauder Suits: Keep Strength 3 base and have their close combat weapon use the rules for Power fists. Easier to explain and keeps the same set of stats. Also, these guys are BEASTS for costing the same a standard Terminator. Relentless jump infantry with S6 weapons, toughness 5, 2 wounds and 2+ armor and that can fire all weapons on the move. Plus they can really spread out with 4" coherency so blast templates aren't effective either. And that is without any additional upgrades which could give Feel No Pain, 4+ invun save, split firing, etc . These guys need a point increase plus some toning down with some rules.

More random opinions to come later on.

Atrotos
02-23-2010, 06:37 PM
The quality of the codex is quite good. It was fun to read through and see how many images I recognized from other sci-fi stuff - much of it works well in 40k and I commend you your excellent imagination. Still there are many typos and greater care is needed when writing rules as many are currently a little convoluted (Zero Troopers have a 5+ save but their armor gives them a 3+?).


What models have you been using to represent these units?

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-23-2010, 08:34 PM
Sorry, I've been taking care of sick girlfriend. She was taking a nap earlier, but I've been spending some time with her and making sure she's alright.


Oberst, would you mind placing the pdfs on scribd too?Don't see why not. Done.


Now on to the Regulars. Thank you both for your input. Hopefully this will turn them into a unit I actually like and like to use. =P As per the wording on some of the rules, this codex started before 5th edition came out, and so some of the rules are phrased to how they would have been back then. Also, many of the ideas I came up with here even before they were used in the new Imperial Guard codex, such as command skills.

Anyway, on down to it. I'll rewrite the Platoon rule as to be more coherent. Also, the idea is that they can be deployed as one unit or all separately. Furthermore, I'll make it so that they all have the same stats and equipment. For simplicity, I think that I'll just be doing away with the Veteran skills though. So except the Lieutenant, they'll all be 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7(8) 4+. The Ld 8 belonging to the Sergeants.

Structurally, all Regulars are aged ~17-20 when they complete their service they have the option of staying in the military. Many end up going to certain specialties, but some stay in the Regulars and make up its core of NCOs. Officers are commissioned much the same as in our military (ROTC cadet, by the way) and so they often don't have any experience behind them either. However, they do have four years of training and education behind them. Their stats are derived more from a heroic game standpoint than reality, as I don't expect to be twice as hard to kill as the man next to me when I'm commissioned.

Overall, they're about to get a major overhaul, and I'll see what I can do about them. Thanks once more for the help on the unit. Oh, and I do plan on making a 'fluff' section where it just details different aspects of society, culture, technology, and military principle.


Also, this goes back to my earlier point about sociology, but what is your actual justification for giving your officers very high Ballistic Skills? Space marine captains lead and command from the front lines, and there's only one career path in a space marine chapter, which means that all captains have (i) personally participated in a lot of actual infantry combat and (ii) put in a really over-the-top amount of training. Similarly, Tau commanders fight on the line, and career advancement is explicitly predicated on demonstrated personally lethality.

So if I can pose a question to you: how is the Republic's military structured? It sounds like very few officers work their way up from private (as is the case with both space marines and tau)? Is every major or colonel expected to fight on the front line? For that matter, are company commanders expected to be at the forefront of every attack, literally using their personal weapon? Is advancement to the rank of major or colonel (or indeed, even captain) explicitly predicated, even in part, on an officer's ability to personally kill things?Now this is something that I'd not really thought of before, and made the connection over the course of the evolution of the codex, that they literally are these heroic figures such as Space Marine Chapter Masters but are unlikely to behave in the same manner. Again, this is why I enjoy letting new people have a hack at the codex and making me rethink all of it. Officers to a high level are expected to lead 'from the front', but this does not mean that they literally have to be discharging their firearms at the enemy. I think this is a good idea, and I'll work to adjust the stats accordingly.


The Regular FireTeam has a good place in the army in my opinion, just need a little work yet. However I did notice that several of the Special Characters allow certain Elites to be taken as Troop Choices. Perhaps of having this as special character only rules, instead have an overall special rule that allows you to pick Black Berets, Special Intelligence, OR Force Reconnaissance units as Troop choices. This gives other options for Troop choices are still allows the same options that the special characters would be given you in the first place. Maybe even have this as an upgrade the Command Squad if points are worth considering. An other idea would be for every Rifleman Fire Team you take, you can take a Black Berets or Force Reconnaissance unit as a troop choice.While I don't like having the Special Characters that allow certain models as Troops, it's the current trend in GW codices, and that's something I'm trying to keep on top of, to keep it very 'official'. The other ideas are very good though, and I'll do some thinking on them.


- Black Berets Shaped Charges: I think it would be easier to just have these work as standard melta bombs instead of the manual charge. I also think their Covert Op rule might be an issue especially if area terrain isn't available. I think Infiltrate and/or Deep Striking would be better suited here (especially if they can be taken as troops).As per the Shaped Charges, that's a good idea. In testing they seem to work... not at all. And as per the Covert Ops, it's modeled after they Lictor infiltration. And if there's no area terrain then you don't get to use them as such. At least they have Infiltrate and thus can still Outflank.


- Tyranid Hunters: Personally I think units designed to only counter one specific race are a bad idea. Just make their Conflagance Missile accessible for most units. Outside of Tyranids, they are a costly unit with counter attack and WS4 which doesn't really fit the rest of the army too well.Like the SIB, they are very fluff oriented units, neither of which I wish to change or get rid of. One thing to note about them though is that if you ignore the anti-Tyranid capabilities, they're the only infantry unit that's not worthless in close combat, and one of two units in the whole army. In my opinion, they're very fluff-y, and if for nothing but that I'd like to keep them as is.


- Revenants and Intrepid Battle Walker are listed as Walkers but have no WS, S, I, or A listed in their stats.See, there-in lies a problem for me. Both of those are technically walkers, but neither one has any close combat capabilities. The easy way to deal with them would be to just tie them up with a single Guardsmen, as neither would really be able to hurt one another. Is there some good way of getting around this?


- Zero Troopers can be reworded from "For every 2 models, you may take 1 special weapon" to "Up to 4 models may take special weapons", since squad size can not be changed in this unit. Also these guys are listed to have Power Armor, they should be listed with their Zero Gravity Suit. Speaking of which, a slow and purposeful unit armed with multiple heavy weapons and can move like jump infantry once per game is a really sick deal.A couple edits have been made to that since I made this PDF apparently. They're supposed to have a total of 9 models, a 4+ save, no power armour, and three special/heavy weapons. I'll make sure that things are up to date.


- Marauder Suits: Keep Strength 3 base and have their close combat weapon use the rules for Power fists. Easier to explain and keeps the same set of stats. Also, these guys are BEASTS for costing the same a standard Terminator. Relentless jump infantry with S6 weapons, toughness 5, 2 wounds and 2+ armor and that can fire all weapons on the move. Plus they can really spread out with 4" coherency so blast templates aren't effective either. And that is without any additional upgrades which could give Feel No Pain, 4+ invun save, split firing, etc . These guys need a point increase plus some toning down with some rules.Ha, these are the guys who look horribly powerful on paper but end up being pretty easy to kill and very expensive every time I've seen them in game. Any sort of weapons that you'd use against a Terminator are just as effective against them, even seemingly moreso. Keep in mind also that they cost as much as Terminators before you give them any weapons, and still are worthless in close combat. Until playtesting proves otherwise, these guys are keeping their cost.

Again, I'd like to thank everyone very much for their input, as every little thing makes me go back and look to make sure that everything is how it should be, and many suggestions make their way into the codex at large. I'm excited to have gotten this much feedback this soon, and I'll be working to put this in the PDF as soon as able.

sirrouga
02-23-2010, 11:35 PM
Like the SIB, they are very fluff oriented units, neither of which I wish to change or get rid of. One thing to note about them though is that if you ignore the anti-Tyranid capabilities, they're the only infantry unit that's not worthless in close combat, and one of two units in the whole army. In my opinion, they're very fluff-y, and if for nothing but that I'd like to keep them as is.

Maybe expanding them into more general anti-xeno or even just more close combat focused units. But without any special close combat weapon I don't see these guys really doing too well in their area. Getting access to maybe Power Weapons or Poison Weapons.


See, there-in lies a problem for me. Both of those are technically walkers, but neither one has any close combat capabilities. The easy way to deal with them would be to just tie them up with a single Guardsmen, as neither would really be able to hurt one another. Is there some good way of getting around this?

Just make their stat line like a basic soldier for the most part. Maybe even lower initiative. Something like WS2, S3, I2, A1 if you intend to keep them limited in close combat.

As for the Intrepid Battle Walker, when I'm reading it the fluff and pictures available I'm thinking of something that slowly marches across the battlefield blasting whatever available. While it might not have great close combat abilities, I don't see it really getting locked into combat so should have the ability to move out of an assault (be it just walking away or via "Hit or Run" special rules.

Alternately, you can just have them set as Tanks instead of walkers but give them special rules to let them move or shoot like walkers. Which may be a better idea depending on your view on them.


Ha, these are the guys who look horribly powerful on paper but end up being pretty easy to kill and very expensive every time I've seen them in game. Any sort of weapons that you'd use against a Terminator are just as effective against them, even seemingly moreso. Keep in mind also that they cost as much as Terminators before you give them any weapons, and still are worthless in close combat. Until playtesting proves otherwise, these guys are keeping their cost.

Perhaps, S6 power weapons are nothing to laugh at but being one attack each I can see your point. I still think the 4 inch coherency thing would cause some confusion especially when involving multiple units of marauders. But I guess some play testing would be required to fine tune them.


Continuing on with my readings.

- Special Intelligence Bureau is an interesting concept. I think they are actually a bit lacking through, while great against pskers, they don't really bring anything else to the table. Maybe some sort of weapon that weakens invulnerable saves or maybe even powers of their own. Its differcult to imagine an army requesting help from a government agency unless they are really powerful in what they do.

- The Spectre scares me. A walker that will be assaulting practically anything on the board on turn two (even possible for a turn 1 assault if the planets align just right) is a scary thought for anything that doesn't have a weapon at least at strength 7 which is a lot of different armies. Plus with a power weapon I don't see much stopping these guys in said armies. Granted a Space Marine with a power fist isn't going to have any problems with these.

- Long Range Bombardment may need to changed up a bit as the rules you have require Vanguard. Maybe allow Laser Designators to work with these as well.

sirrouga
02-24-2010, 01:02 AM
On an other quick note. I find the models from AT-43 game specially the U.N.A. faction seem to work well with this codex. Big problem in that all AT-43 models come pre-painted so not sure how that sits with everyone.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Maybe expanding them into more general anti-xeno or even just more close combat focused units. But without any special close combat weapon I don't see these guys really doing too well in their area. Getting access to maybe Power Weapons or Poison Weapons.I thought about giving the option for changing Preferred Enemy (Tyranids) to (Orks) for no additional cost. However, there is no other species that the Kae'Moda fight against as much to warrant that. They're supposed to be able to hold their own against general troops of another army, but still not do too well against dedicated close combat troops.



Just make their stat line like a basic soldier for the most part. Maybe even lower initiative. Something like WS2, S3, I2, A1 if you intend to keep them limited in close combat.

As for the Intrepid Battle Walker, when I'm reading it the fluff and pictures available I'm thinking of something that slowly marches across the battlefield blasting whatever available. While it might not have great close combat abilities, I don't see it really getting locked into combat so should have the ability to move out of an assault (be it just walking away or via "Hit or Run" special rules.

Alternately, you can just have them set as Tanks instead of walkers but give them special rules to let them move or shoot like walkers. Which may be a better idea depending on your view on them.I might give the Revenant weak close combat abilities, but there's no way the Intrepid could fight in close combat, so I'm probably going to make a special rule where it counts as a Tank but uses Walker movement and shooting.



Perhaps, S6 power weapons are nothing to laugh at but being one attack each I can see your point. I still think the 4 inch coherency thing would cause some confusion especially when involving multiple units of marauders. But I guess some play testing would be required to fine tune them.Taken into consideration. However, I don't think that the whole power fist thing really fits them, as they're really just oversized exoskeletons. If you put one of these things in a Space Hulk you're asking for a casualty.



- Special Intelligence Bureau is an interesting concept. I think they are actually a bit lacking through, while great against psykers, they don't really bring anything else to the table. Maybe some sort of weapon that weakens invulnerable saves or maybe even powers of their own. Its differcult to imagine an army requesting help from a government agency unless they are really powerful in what they do.This is something I've heard multiple times, that they don't really seem to be worth taking. Might you have some suggestions?


- The Spectre scares me. A walker that will be assaulting practically anything on the board on turn two (even possible for a turn 1 assault if the planets align just right) is a scary thought for anything that doesn't have a weapon at least at strength 7 which is a lot of different armies. Plus with a power weapon I don't see much stopping these guys in said armies. Granted a Space Marine with a power fist isn't going to have any problems with these.I might reduce the front armour to 11 then, that makes it a bit more vulnerable in close combat, but Space Marines still can't tear it apart with their bear hands. However, they're not as scary as they may seem. They're typically just good for a charge with the hopes of causing enough casualties to force the enemy to flee. Which actually gives me a good idea; should they be given +D3 attacks on the charge for just this purpose entirely? In regular combat they'll only be able to kill one or two guys a turn and end up just getting locked there forever. However, if they can successfully rout enemies on the charge, it gives them a Cataphract-esque role.


- Long Range Bombardment may need to changed up a bit as the rules you have require Vanguard. Maybe allow Laser Designators to work with these as well.That's the intent of the rules. You have two spotters who call in the artillery (or an officer who bought the skill). I need to fix this on the Army list.


Oh! My friend gave me a very good idea yesterday. I'll be replacing an ill-conceived character (HK-74) with a new one who is an Imperial sympathizer. This character allows you to use both Imperial and Kae'Moda troops in the same army in a similar manner to the Inquisition codices. Viola! Instant Kae'Moda starter army which can be fielded with a pre-existing army.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-24-2010, 03:17 PM
As per what models I'm using, I'll supply a few examples here:

Models for Black Berets/Tyranid Hunters:
http://www.thewarstore.com/media/ss_size2/ABG2010.jpg
http://www.rackham-store.com/en/product/1033
http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/shopimages/products/normal/cor280402.jpg

Regulars:
http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=45
http://www.urbanmammoth.co.uk/acatalog/info_34101.html

Revenant:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/shopimages/products/normal/cor280529.jpg
http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/shopimages/products/normal/COR280534.jpg
http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/shopimages/products/normal/cor280303.jpg

Intrepid:
http://www.rackham-store.com/en/product/865

Valravn:
http://www.rackham.fr/images/stories/AT-43/TH/THEL04__03.jpg

Other good minis:
http://www.mercsminis.com/Store.php

I used to have some more, but I can't find them any more. For the most part now I just use Imperial Guardsmen and Space Marines to represent things as needed. The only actual models I own are six o the ones from Resolution games (the first link), so it's not as though I'm anywhere close to fielding an army of them!

Nabterayl
02-25-2010, 09:15 AM
Now this is something that I'd not really thought of before, and made the connection over the course of the evolution of the codex, that they literally are these heroic figures such as Space Marine Chapter Masters but are unlikely to behave in the same manner. Again, this is why I enjoy letting new people have a hack at the codex and making me rethink all of it. Officers to a high level are expected to lead 'from the front', but this does not mean that they literally have to be discharging their firearms at the enemy. I think this is a good idea, and I'll work to adjust the stats accordingly.
Yeah, I think "heroism" is a concept that GW frequently conflates that you might not want to. If you asked every soldier in a real-life company, "Who is the baddest mofo in this unit?" they might tell you it's the captain, because he's a mentally tough customer, has successfully led the company through hell, and does it all while fighting from the front. But if you asked instead, "Who is the most likely to rack up the highest kill count?" that'd be another matter - probably that person would be some private or specialist in one of the platoons.

In space marine companies and hunter cadres, the answer to each of those questions should be the same. Even in Imperial Guard armies there's a tendency for the most dangerous man to be the commander. That's pretty weird when you think about it, though. If you want to have a badass soldier figure in the codex (and I'm not saying you should, but if you do) why couldn't that be some random dude in the army, either as an upgrade, or as a separate HQ choice?


See, there-in lies a problem for me. Both of those are technically walkers, but neither one has any close combat capabilities. The easy way to deal with them would be to just tie them up with a single Guardsmen, as neither would really be able to hurt one another. Is there some good way of getting around this?
Just out of curiosity ... are they really less capable in CC than a Sentinel? I mean ... as far as I can tell, the only way a Sentinel can attack in hand to hand combat is by stepping on people (it doesn't even really look like it would be very good at kicking). Are they less CC-capable than that?

Remember that close combat is not just hand to hand combat. Close combat is CQB as well.

Madness
02-25-2010, 09:43 AM
To be honest I was kind of scared away by what I saw, the whole thing features too much stuff from too different sources and lacks any sort of global harmony, being a fluff buff I got pretty scared by that, plus there seems to be no coherence with the unit naming system.

sirrouga
02-25-2010, 03:38 PM
Missed a day or two but back to annoy.

Tyranid Hunters and Special Intelligence Bureau
These guys are both filling the same role, close combat units. Just one is armed specially against Tyranids and the other against psykers. I think you will need to change how one squad works all together or give them reasons to have people decide which one is better.

Tyranid Hunters
These guys are armed for close combat but are the only ones able to carry the Conflagration Missile which is a heavy weapon so kinda goes against what they are supposed to be doing. I still think the preferred enemy (Tyranids) should be dropped and the unit renamed into something more general; Head Hunters, Reaper Squad, etc.

Also the more I think about it the more Poisoned Weapons seem to be a good fit. I mean the UltraMarines also had a war against the Tyranids an developed Hellfire rounds. A 4+ poison weapon will work great against all the monstrous creatures and against gaunts you get a re-roll to wound (same strength to toughness). However if you would do poisoned weapons then preferred enemy really has to go since re-rolling all hits and wounds is a bit much, even if it is only against gaunts.

Special Intelligence Bureau
These guys need to be reworked completely in my opinion. They aren't really performing anything really special or providing any real unique ability. Also, make sure you note that the two Avenger Pistols they carry count as twin linked else it doesn't mean a thing since infantry can only fire one gun at a time. Here are a few other ideas I thought up for them...

> Jump Infantry. None of your infantry has the ability to move fast without a transport. And while jump packs won't sit right with the army theme, they could have access to short range teleporters and move the same way the Eldar Warp Spiders do (just make sure they aren't as good in that respect). Your special named character has similar equipment as well so it isn't too far off.

> Snipers. I noticed there is only one unit that can take sniper rifles and those are skimmers. A stealthy sniper unit could be interesting and being the shadowy assassins they are I can see the SIB doing well there.

> Invulnerable Saves. While it doesn't really make them stand out as much, having a decent invulnerable save does boost what they do.

> Psykers themselves. Give access to one or two powers and they are automatically unique.

> Covert Ops. Drop this ability from the Black Berets and give it to these guys then change it to the way Lictors currently work (appear anywhere but can not move or assault that turn). Black Berets already have Infiltrate and lots of other goodies.

Spectres
Yeah I'm beating a dead horse here but I can see these things (even with their high cost) take out entire armies of Necrons, Tau, and maybe even Imperial Guard. A turn 1 or 2 furious charged Walker is something really dangerous that many armies have to spend tons of points just to have a chance against. I mean any IG squad that doesn't have a power fist or at least grenades (krak or melta) have no hope against these guys if it touches them (and grenades only hit walkers on a 6). Against Necrons these are even deadly since we would have one turn to try for pen hits and then only hope for enough glances (if we took those upgrades). Tau have no close combat defense so whatever gets charged it is practically gone.

Regulars Fire Team
No Transport options?

Currently reading over the special characters so next time I'll touch on them a bit.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-27-2010, 12:12 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?nzw35motmct

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27571787/Codex-Kae-Moda-Republic-IV

Updated the PDF again, a lot this time. I took a lot of suggestions and made a lot of changes here, though haven't gotten around to fixing everything yet. Regulars have been greatly redone and simplified, and consequently I like them now and think that they're a good, solid Troops choice. I didn't get a chance to respond to the newer posts but I did take your suggestions home with me and looked through them while I was working on the codex. Here's a brief list of the corrections made:

- History erased. For sneak peak on new history, look up at the second post in the thread for my summary.

- Summary page created. I'll tell you what, I didn't realize how necessary it was, but I love it now. Makes it really easy to look up stats for units and weapons now (so it serves it's purpose, good!)

- Consistency improved. Now units should have the same stats and rules everywhere in the codex.

- Stats tinkered with. Officers and vehicles took the hits here, with reduced statistics. Points to be adjusted later.

- Reguars redone, with clear and simplified rules and stats. Now with the ability to take Stalkers as transports. Humvee convoy anyone?

- Characters adjusted slightly, not finished here. White Masque and Simo Spitz removed entirely.

- Many weapons adjusted, mostly lowered in Strength or reduced in range. Not entirely done tinkering here.

- Intrepid given specially Lumbering Walker rule, and Gauss cannon given new, unique rule.

- Shaped Charges now act as Melta Bombs.

- Conflagration missile (going to need a new name now, I suppose) now S3, Poison (4+), Large blast

- All Marauder special rules redone.

There are still yet a bunch of little other things, and a bunch of little things still yet to do. After having redone the Regulars, I'm going to take a look over other units and try to make them more simplified, in rules and in options.

I'll get to responding to all new posts as soon as I get a chance. Thanks again for the responses and help you guys are giving me.


Also, I made a post with links to models that I'd use for different units in the army, but for some reason it said that it'd have to be approved before the post could be made. I have no idea why. At any rate, it's in limbo right now until the moderators let it be posted.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-27-2010, 07:38 PM
Yeah, I think "heroism" is a concept that GW frequently conflates that you might not want to. If you asked every soldier in a real-life company, "Who is the baddest mofo in this unit?" they might tell you it's the captain, because he's a mentally tough customer, has successfully led the company through hell, and does it all while fighting from the front. But if you asked instead, "Who is the most likely to rack up the highest kill count?" that'd be another matter - probably that person would be some private or specialist in one of the platoons.

In space marine companies and hunter cadres, the answer to each of those questions should be the same. Even in Imperial Guard armies there's a tendency for the most dangerous man to be the commander. That's pretty weird when you think about it, though. If you want to have a badass soldier figure in the codex (and I'm not saying you should, but if you do) why couldn't that be some random dude in the army, either as an upgrade, or as a separate HQ choice?The Colonel, the most powerful officer, is now:
<table border="1"><tr><td>WS</td><td>BS</td><td>S</td><td>T</td><td>W</td><td>I</td><td>A</td><td>LD</td><td>SV</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>10</td><td>3+</td></tr></table>
And he is the only officer that does not have two wounds. Also, all Commanders get two attacks which doesn't seem that unreasonable in the grander scope of 40K. Your thoughts on overall stats for officers?


Just out of curiosity ... are they really less capable in CC than a Sentinel? I mean ... as far as I can tell, the only way a Sentinel can attack in hand to hand combat is by stepping on people (it doesn't even really look like it would be very good at kicking). Are they less CC-capable than that?

Remember that close combat is not just hand to hand combat. Close combat is CQB as well.
They'll probably look something like this:
http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity_ENG/images/stories/BluePics/TsyklonSputniksweb.jpg
And therefore their best way to combat something is to either tackle it (which would damage the Revenant as well) or try and turn fast enough to shoot an enemy at point blank range. That enemy would probably also realize that they'd do well to not stand directly in front of its gun. Right now they're about as close combat-able as a Sentinel, minus one Strength.


To be honest I was kind of scared away by what I saw, the whole thing features too much stuff from too different sources and lacks any sort of global harmony, being a fluff buff I got pretty scared by that, plus there seems to be no coherence with the unit naming system.That's... nice. Thank you?

What do you mean by that it "features too much stuff from too different sources" and by that it lacks any "global harmony"? I really can't improve upon anything if you don't provide any feedback. In what ways are things wrong and in what ways can I improve them? Also, no coherence with the unit naming system? Sorta like how Predator, Land Raider, Rhino, Scout squad, and Terminators all follow this great coherent naming system?


Tyranid Hunters and Special Intelligence Bureau
These guys are both filling the same role, close combat units. Just one is armed specially against Tyranids and the other against psykers. I think you will need to change how one squad works all together or give them reasons to have people decide which one is better.

Tyranid Hunters
These guys are armed for close combat but are the only ones able to carry the Conflagration Missile which is a heavy weapon so kinda goes against what they are supposed to be doing. I still think the preferred enemy (Tyranids) should be dropped and the unit renamed into something more general; Head Hunters, Reaper Squad, etc.

Also the more I think about it the more Poisoned Weapons seem to be a good fit. I mean the UltraMarines also had a war against the Tyranids an developed Hellfire rounds. A 4+ poison weapon will work great against all the monstrous creatures and against gaunts you get a re-roll to wound (same strength to toughness). However if you would do poisoned weapons then preferred enemy really has to go since re-rolling all hits and wounds is a bit much, even if it is only against gaunts.I'd like to keep them as Tyranid Hunters. Tyranids are a big deal to the Kae'Moda, and they wouldn't have such a close-combat oriented unit if it weren't for them. I might opt to use the poisoned weapons, as that's a pretty good idea. However, I might also remake them so that they can be used for close combat or ranged fighting, depending on how you gear them.


Special Intelligence Bureau
These guys need to be reworked completely in my opinion. They aren't really performing anything really special or providing any real unique ability. Also, make sure you note that the two Avenger Pistols they carry count as twin linked else it doesn't mean a thing since infantry can only fire one gun at a time. Here are a few other ideas I thought up for them...

> Jump Infantry. None of your infantry has the ability to move fast without a transport. And while jump packs won't sit right with the army theme, they could have access to short range teleporters and move the same way the Eldar Warp Spiders do (just make sure they aren't as good in that respect). Your special named character has similar equipment as well so it isn't too far off.

> Snipers. I noticed there is only one unit that can take sniper rifles and those are skimmers. A stealthy sniper unit could be interesting and being the shadowy assassins they are I can see the SIB doing well there.

> Invulnerable Saves. While it doesn't really make them stand out as much, having a decent invulnerable save does boost what they do.

> Psykers themselves. Give access to one or two powers and they are automatically unique.

> Covert Ops. Drop this ability from the Black Berets and give it to these guys then change it to the way Lictors currently work (appear anywhere but can not move or assault that turn). Black Berets already have Infiltrate and lots of other goodies.Teleporters I'm against. It's supposed to be his special thing and I don't want to take it away. Snipers is a good idea. I also need to put more Sniper rifles out there anyway. As they are now, they have a 5+ normal save, 6+ invul, and FNP. So in the end they're sorta survivable, but not entirely. Psykers in the army I'm against as that the Kae'Moda themselves are pretty hardcore against Psykers. However, allowing for the option to have a bound psyker wouldn't be too bad of an idea (much the same as a bound daemon-host).


Spectres
Yeah I'm beating a dead horse here but I can see these things (even with their high cost) take out entire armies of Necrons, Tau, and maybe even Imperial Guard. A turn 1 or 2 furious charged Walker is something really dangerous that many armies have to spend tons of points just to have a chance against. I mean any IG squad that doesn't have a power fist or at least grenades (krak or melta) have no hope against these guys if it touches them (and grenades only hit walkers on a 6). Against Necrons these are even deadly since we would have one turn to try for pen hits and then only hope for enough glances (if we took those upgrades). Tau have no close combat defense so whatever gets charged it is practically gone.I see what you mean about that. Make them 11-11-11 or 11-11-10 then? I'm definitely against them having FA of 10 though. I can see how these would be so deadly against other armies, even if all they do is tie up enemy squads, which can be equally bad against armies like Necrons or Tau anyway. I'll soften them up a little bit, but not too much.


Regulars Fire Team
No Transport options?They do now, and I like how it turned out. It makes them able to be mechanized convoy, much the same as a modern Platoon in Humvees would be. I like the effect very much.

Madness
02-27-2010, 07:50 PM
I'm sorry if I offended you, my concerns were just that, concerns, and not insults or anything.

Space Marines names are from a long tradition and are therefore "locked" in the current language, albeit most recent stuff does comply (vanguard/sternguard for instance). Artworks are very varied and seldom feature multiple units. There's no indication of how a unit works with another, or what's the overall army structure.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-27-2010, 09:20 PM
No offense taken. Apologies on the less than curt response, as I didn't know quite how you intended it. (Hard to tell intentions on the internet and all.)

Well, I can see what you mean about the naming and artwork. However, being a poor college student I can hardly afford a team of artists to whip me up some artwork. =P What do you mean about the overall structure and how units work with one another? Being that I made this, it's a tad hard for me to see things from an outside perspective. If you could give some examples, I might be able to better pick up on it.

Also, having said that you're a fluff buff, would you mind taking a look at the history summary in the second post? I've been dying for someone to give some feedback on it, but no one has yet to do so. =(

Nabterayl
02-28-2010, 01:21 AM
~M23 Group of colony ships set out to the Alba Cluster. These are corporate owned, and sent off with the intent of founding a new empire.
You mean the colony ships are owned by the colonists, who have formed a corporation for the purpose of pooling their resources? I have a hard time imagining a corporation funding somebody else to start a new empire.


~M26 Ships settle across the Alba Cluster, Kae'Moda founded. Nearby colony of Etrui rapidly expands and spreads a sphere of influence over other colonies, including the Kae'Moda. It is in this time frame that psykers and Warp anomalies begin to appear, albeit only in minor instances.

~M27-30 The Etrui begin wars against Chaos, and during this the Kae'Moda seize territory and their independence from the Etrui. The Kae'Moda then proceed to fight a number of wars, winning and losing, against the Etrui, Chaos, and the other corporate colonies. This results in the Kae'Moda establishing their own sphere of influence and forming themselves into a Republic.
They begin wars against ... Chaos? Chaos what? You mean the Ruinous Powers begin to infiltrate colonial society and are recognized as a threat? If so, I'd actually be curious as to why. To me, the four dark gods are much like the Sith of this universe - their philosophy is attractive, generally moreso than that of the "good guys," and from an objective point of view it's difficult to see what is so wrong about it ... except that for seemingly unconnected reasons, its ultimate expression is often monstrous.


~M30 The Great Crusade comes to the Alba Cluster with a small contingent of Word Bearers and the Imperial Army. They start to fight against Chaos and the colonies but are ultimately defeated. The Horus Heresy prevents a larger fleet from returning the destroy the already devastated Republic.

~M31 Chaos Warband seizes opportunity and invades Kae'Moda space. With little left to defend with, many systems are lost and even Kae'Moda Prime is sacked. It takes over a thousand years to eliminate the warband, reclaim and rebuild to how things were before the Great Crusade.
It takes over a thousand years to "eliminate" a "warband?" What exactly do we mean by "eliminate," and what exactly do we mean by "warband?"


~M33-35 The first of the Xeno-Wars begin as Kae'Moda consolidates colonies under their rule officially and begin to expand into nearby space. In this time three successive wars are fought against an alien empire known as the Hadast, resulting in Xenocide. This is also the first recorded encounters with the Eldar and Orks.
I find this hard to believe. According to the ork codex, in M27 techpriests sent out a deep space probe with the mission of finding the edge of the universe. In M41, having traveled far beyond the edge of the Imperium, the probe is still picking up orkish signals. This means that wherever the Kae'Moda settlers landed, it would have been well within the ambit of ork-occupied space, so I find it hard to believe that they took seven millennia to encounter their first greenskins. Maybe they had the good fortune to land in an area of space that the orks didn't have much interest in or presence on, but seven millennia is an awfully long time to go with no orks coming to call, and once they discovered humies on hand to scrap with ... well, we know what that means.


~M35 Upstart politician Theodore Sempronius takes land, power from Corporations and gave it to the common man. Previously, corporations effectively ran governments and armies, leaving the people in squalor. He was later assassinated, as well as his brother who a few years later continued this platform.
There's an awful lot of history implied here, since unless the first colonists were complete morons, they presumably would have started with an iron control of their colony. Might want to elaborate some more earlier in the timeline to discuss the arc of history here.


~M35 Politician and Marshal Frederick Marcus reforms and standardizes military, and then defeats a looming Chaos warband. Despite his great achievements, his patron is arrested and Marcus is forced into exile.

~M35 Cornelius Felix goes off to campaign against biomechanical Xenos, known as the Kushiel, augmented by the development of reliable faster than light travel. While Felix is away, Marcus returns from exile with a small army and sieges the capitol, gaining rule of the Republic, but dies shortly thereafter. After victory against buy not conquering Xenos, Felix returns and takes power for himself, then assassinating political opponents openly.
Wait ... how were they getting around before? Unreliable FTL? How unreliable? And what do we mean by "reliable?" Surely there must have been FTL before now; you can't wage interstellar warfare on narratively meaningful timeframes without it.


~M36 In the wake of political instability for some time, three politicians form a Triumvirate to ensure peace. Gnaeus builds a large fleet and eliminates a recent plague of piracy. Tiberius campaigns against Chaos, removing them as a significant threat in the future. Tiberius returns with his army and demands governmental reform, civil war breaks out. Gnaeus is ultimately defeated, fleeing to allied Xenos (Axg'typ) who betray him. Tiberius annexes Xenos, proclaims himself Dictator until reforms have been made. Assassinated by Senate, who fear losing their power.
Tiberius campaigns against Chaos and defeats it as a significant threat? How has Chaos been expressing itself until now? Defeating the local Chaos space marine warbands is one thing, but if you have a human society that the Ruinous Powers somehow haven't gotten their claws into, that's ... something that needs to be explained.


~M36 A second Triumvirate is formed, including Tiberius's heir Lucius and his Lieutenant Anthony. At first they work together, avenging Tiberius and killing his assassins/conspirators. Both feel the right to rule and a second civil war breaks out, ending in a great naval battle. Lucius the Vindicator carries out progressive reforms started by Tiberius, and even reforms the Republic into an Empire, ruled by succession of chosen heirs appointed by previous ruler.

~M37-41 Second Xeno-Wars begin after further reformation of army with improved technology and tactics. First major wars with Orks begin, some Orks allowed to settle in Kae'Moda sphere of influence. First incidence of Tyrands reported. Era marked by slow, deliberate expansion.
How big is the Empire at this point? See earlier comment about contact with orks.


~M38 Civil Strife and stagnation lead to another Civil War, with the royal guard deposing of the depraved Emperor. Government reformed with Legislative body representing districts based on population and GPD. Dictator may still be appointed by Senate in times of need.
What exactly is GPD?


~M39 Contact regained with Imperium of Man, relations mixed as both wish to absorb population of other.
Wait, wait, wait ... the Empire (are we a Republic again yet?) wants to absorb the Imperium? How big is the Empire/Republic at this point? It takes an awful lot of chutzpah to want to absorb a political entity whose size is unknown even to itself.

And by "mixed," I take it we mean "the Imperium flags this area for an evangelical crusade?" 'Cause if the Imperium found a bunch of humans who didn't worship the Emperor, that's exactly what would happen. They might send missionaries to try persuasion for a century or two, but if that didn't work, the Republic would have a full-blown, full-spectrum, multi-billion soldier war of conquest on its hands. It might take centuries to get around to it, but sooner or later, the Adeptus Ministorum would show up with a crusade at its back to bring the Emperor's light to the Kae'Moda whether they liked it or not.

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-28-2010, 02:36 PM
I think a lot of the problems are that I'd made this summary for myself and had the smaller details in my head, not really thinking that they're important for the summary at large. This is going to end up being some fifteen or twenty pages when it's all said and done. That being said, thank you for examining it, as I've really been wanting someone to take a look at it. With some better explanation on these points, tell me if your opinion has changed or if these points still really need some work.


You mean the colony ships are owned by the colonists, who have formed a corporation for the purpose of pooling their resources? I have a hard time imagining a corporation funding somebody else to start a new empire.No, literally a Corporation wishes to form a small Empire of their own, as what better way is there to earn money and power than to be the government itself? I would find it hard to believe that out of all the thousands upon thousands of colonies formed in the Dark Age of Technology that all of them were funded and organized by the 'Terran Democracy' or whoever was in charge at the time. Something not included here is that the owner of the Corporation who was supposed to be the leader of the colonies, dies whilst in cryo-hibernation.


They begin wars against ... Chaos? Chaos what? You mean the Ruinous Powers begin to infiltrate colonial society and are recognized as a threat? If so, I'd actually be curious as to why. To me, the four dark gods are much like the Sith of this universe - their philosophy is attractive, generally moreso than that of the "good guys," and from an objective point of view it's difficult to see what is so wrong about it ... except that for seemingly unconnected reasons, its ultimate expression is often monstrous.Again, something I didn't explain too well as it was a brief summary for myself. Chaos infiltrates and takes over some colonies, then proceeding to wage war against its neighbours.


It takes over a thousand years to "eliminate" a "warband?" What exactly do we mean by "eliminate," and what exactly do we mean by "warband?"A Chaos warband? As in, an army of Chaos soldiers, cultists, Daemons, and the like? It takes a long time to fight off and destroy the army, but the majority of that time is spend trying to rebuild the ravaged colonies that survived, in addition to their armies, and then go about recolonizing those systems that were lost to Chaos.


I find this hard to believe. According to the ork codex, in M27 techpriests sent out a deep space probe with the mission of finding the edge of the universe. In M41, having traveled far beyond the edge of the Imperium, the probe is still picking up orkish signals. This means that wherever the Kae'Moda settlers landed, it would have been well within the ambit of ork-occupied space, so I find it hard to believe that they took seven millennia to encounter their first greenskins. Maybe they had the good fortune to land in an area of space that the orks didn't have much interest in or presence on, but seven millennia is an awfully long time to go with no orks coming to call, and once they discovered humies on hand to scrap with ... well, we know what that means.Well, until this time all of their history has been in the Alba Cluster and not expanded to anything outside of it. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for their to be a small area in the entire galaxy that doesn't have Orks in it.


Wait ... how were they getting around before? Unreliable FTL? How unreliable? And what do we mean by "reliable?" Surely there must have been FTL before now; you can't wage interstellar warfare on narratively meaningful timeframes without it. They have FTL travel, but it's going through the Warp with little or no assistance from Astropaths. Prior to the Age of Strife, this wouldn't have been too much of a problem. After all, Astropaths allowed ships to make longer and faster jumps than before, rather than allowing them outright. Consequently travel outside of the cluster was very limited, and many ships were lost yet still to the Warp. During their wars against an alien race known as the Hadast, they lost hundreds of ships and millions of soldiers because of this. However, it wasn't until this point that swift and safe FTL travel could be made, as that they do so without entering the Warp.



Tiberius campaigns against Chaos and defeats it as a significant threat? How has Chaos been expressing itself until now? Defeating the local Chaos space marine warbands is one thing, but if you have a human society that the Ruinous Powers somehow haven't gotten their claws into, that's ... something that needs to be explained.The Chaos empire that was founded earlier (and reinforced by Chaos Marines in millennium since) still lingered and provided occasional conflict against Kae'Moda and Xenos empires in the area. Tiberius campaigns against them and leaves all planets held by Chaos in ruins. The only exception to this is a small group of systems surrounded by a Warp storm that he is unable to cross.



How big is the Empire at this point? See earlier comment about contact with orks.Again, it's not as though they haven't been fighting, but rather that this is when it really escalates into total war, rather than border skirmishes and fighting against smaller Waaaghs that invade.



What exactly is GPD?That's supposed to be GDP; Gross Domestic Product.



Wait, wait, wait ... the Empire (are we a Republic again yet?) wants to absorb the Imperium? How big is the Empire/Republic at this point? It takes an awful lot of chutzpah to want to absorb a political entity whose size is unknown even to itself.

And by "mixed," I take it we mean "the Imperium flags this area for an evangelical crusade?" 'Cause if the Imperium found a bunch of humans who didn't worship the Emperor, that's exactly what would happen. They might send missionaries to try persuasion for a century or two, but if that didn't work, the Republic would have a full-blown, full-spectrum, multi-billion soldier war of conquest on its hands. It might take centuries to get around to it, but sooner or later, the Adeptus Ministorum would show up with a crusade at its back to bring the Emperor's light to the Kae'Moda whether they liked it or not.It's always been called a Republic, even when it's an empire. It wishes to absorb the nearby systems under their rule, not necessarily the entire Imperium of Man. They have nooo idea how big the Imperium really is.

And as per instantly flagging them for Crusade, maybe not? The Inquisition has been notified, but not until very recently. There are some among the Kae'Moda who think that the Emperor is a pretty rad guy and even those who worship him. For the time being though, I think they have bigger fish to fry than a group of humans not under the control of Chaos who have even gone as far as to protect Imperium planets from the Tyranids. Will the Inquisition form a Crusade to try and reclaim them? Probably. But it's not going to happen within the span of the next few hundred years, at least.

Nabterayl
02-28-2010, 07:27 PM
No, literally a Corporation wishes to form a small Empire of their own, as what better way is there to earn money and power than to be the government itself? I would find it hard to believe that out of all the thousands upon thousands of colonies formed in the Dark Age of Technology that all of them were funded and organized by the 'Terran Democracy' or whoever was in charge at the time. Something not included here is that the owner of the Corporation who was supposed to be the leader of the colonies, dies whilst in cryo-hibernation.
This makes a little more sense, but I think you need to refresh your conception of what a corporation actually is. A corporation is a person formed by a group of people who invest their funds into it. Essentially it's an avatar for the group of people who deposited money into it.

Consequently, it's the investors who own the corporation. What you're describing sounds like this:

You come to me and say, "Hey, I'm gathering funds to create a new empire tens of thousands of light-years away, and I'm going to set myself up as ruler; want to donate money?"

I say, "Sure, as long as I get to be a ruler too."

"No no no," you say, "I'm going to be ruler. You don't get a stake - I just want a donation."

"You're cracked," I reply.

If the CEO dies in transit, fair enough. But you've got to explain why rational people would donate their money to this venture. Nobody is going to donate money so that somebody else can set up an empire across the stars.


Again, something I didn't explain too well as it was a brief summary for myself. Chaos infiltrates and takes over some colonies, then proceeding to wage war against its neighbours.
Fair enough, I suppose, though there's still some holes here. "Chaos" is an Imperial-centric concept, after all. From a sociological standpoint what you just said was, "Some colonies spontaneously wage war on their neighbors." That could happen, I suppose, but it strikes me as distinctly ... well, Khornate.


A Chaos warband? As in, an army of Chaos soldiers, cultists, Daemons, and the like? It takes a long time to fight off and destroy the army, but the majority of that time is spend trying to rebuild the ravaged colonies that survived, in addition to their armies, and then go about recolonizing those systems that were lost to Chaos.
So ... an army, then? A really large army? I mean, you're talking about a thousand years of piracy.


Well, until this time all of their history has been in the Alba Cluster and not expanded to anything outside of it. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for their to be a small area in the entire galaxy that doesn't have Orks in it.
I agree that there are certainly small pockets of the galaxy where orks don't live, but I still have a hard time imagining seven thousand years going by without any orks visiting this area of space.


They have FTL travel, but it's going through the Warp with little or no assistance from Astropaths. Prior to the Age of Strife, this wouldn't have been too much of a problem. After all, Astropaths allowed ships to make longer and faster jumps than before, rather than allowing them outright. Consequently travel outside of the cluster was very limited, and many ships were lost yet still to the Warp. During their wars against an alien race known as the Hadast, they lost hundreds of ships and millions of soldiers because of this. However, it wasn't until this point that swift and safe FTL travel could be made, as that they do so without entering the Warp.
Out of curiosity, how "swift" are we talking here? Tau dive drives are safe FTL, and arguably swift, but still about an average of 1/3 as fast as a vessel traveling through the Warp with Navigator or Navigator-like assistance.


The Chaos empire that was founded earlier (and reinforced by Chaos Marines in millennium since) still lingered and provided occasional conflict against Kae'Moda and Xenos empires in the area. Tiberius campaigns against them and leaves all planets held by Chaos in ruins. The only exception to this is a small group of systems surrounded by a Warp storm that he is unable to cross.
Okay, that's fair enough. But there's nothing really Chaotic about an empire. What's pernicious about Chaos is the idea ... the idea that things can be better, that even the blackest despair can be survived, that it's okay to look after one's self, that it's okay to be mad, that fighting with honor matters. Those are the ideas from which Chaos cults spring. How does the Republic deal with them?


It's always been called a Republic, even when it's an empire. It wishes to absorb the nearby systems under their rule, not necessarily the entire Imperium of Man. They have nooo idea how big the Imperium really is.
Why? Most starfaring Imperial subjects, I imagine, are pretty damn proud of the Imperium's immensity. Who has the Republic been talking to that they haven't figured out how huge the Imperium is? Or do they just refuse to believe what they've been told?


And as per instantly flagging them for Crusade, maybe not? The Inquisition has been notified, but not until very recently. There are some among the Kae'Moda who think that the Emperor is a pretty rad guy and even those who worship him. For the time being though, I think they have bigger fish to fry than a group of humans not under the control of Chaos who have even gone as far as to protect Imperium planets from the Tyranids. Will the Inquisition form a Crusade to try and reclaim them? Probably. But it's not going to happen within the span of the next few hundred years, at least.
I don't think the Inquisition has anything to do with this. A group of humans that are not a part of the Imperium doesn't really fall under the Inquisition's mission statement. That is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy, which is part of the reason I question the timing here. Virtually every starship in the Imperium, even rogue trader vessels, would have clergy onboard, and even the lowliest cleric would surely recognize the divine imperative to evangelize fellow humans who somehow have survived for thousands of years outside the light of the Emperor. Shipboard chaplain communicates the existence of the Republic to the Ecclesiarchy via the ship's astropaths, the Ecclesiarchy dispatches missionaries, the missionaries fail to achieve a 100% conversion rate, the Ecclesiarchy requests a crusade be mustered under its leadership, and the Ecclesiarchy-led crusade comes in its billions to spread the Imperial Creed.

That's really the only way I can see this happening. I'm not saying the Imperium needs to crush the Republic, just that the events you've described lead inexorably to the Imperium trying to crush the Republic, and so far there's no convincing explanation as to why that hasn't happened. Two thousand years is a really long time, even for Imperial bureaucracy, so I'm wondering why the Republic hasn't had to deal with an Imperial crusade yet.

In many ways this situation is similar to that of the Tau Empire, which has had to deal with an Imperial crusade, and was really only saved by the arrival of the tyranids. The key differences that you've identified so far are that the Republic makes contact with the Imperium way before the tyranids arrive, and heathen humans would probably be a higher priority for the Imperium than yet another minor xenos empire.

Sir Biscuit
03-01-2010, 01:27 AM
Too be fair to his fluff, there already IS a precedent for a lot of the things he's claiming... in that little tech empire on the Eastern Fringe.

While it's true that the Tau did lay a smackdown on some Orks while fighting ove their outer colonies, the Tau were unmolested for virtually their entire history. Only recently, during thier large spere expansions have they really come into contact with them. While it is true that Orks are prolific, I imagine there are sectors of space where they are virtually nonexistant... in fact I imagine it would be quite common. After all, there are PLENTY of imperial sectors that have no problem at all with them at all. The mechanicus probe picking up signal so far out is less of a testament to their saturation as it is to their dispersion.

In addition, the Tau also don't know how big the Imperium is, and they've taken over plenty of Imperial worlds. I imagine it's because when they ask "Hey, new guys, how big is this Imperium of Man anyway?" And the response they get is "A trillion." It's a little hard to take them seriously. After all, I imagine any reasonable government who is presented with the scale and workings of the Imperium would consider it an idea of insanity.

Nabterayl
03-01-2010, 01:42 AM
I don't mean to suggest that the Republican fluff can't be what it is. I'm just pointing out that these are things that it would strengthen the fluff to address. Virtually the first thing the tau encountered when they ventured outside of their home system was orks, for instance. And the Damocles Gulf Crusade hammered the fledgling Empire really hard - yes, the fire caste adapted and eventually managed to start holding their ground rather than just getting steamrolled, but what really saved the Empire was the arrival of Behemoth. In this way, the fluff says, "No, a tiny little tech empire, no matter how advanced, cannot hold off an Imperial crusade. We know that, and it didn't, but here's another reason why the empire is still around."

And I think the tau have a pretty good idea of how big the Imperium is, and they want to annex it anyway, because they're arrogant jingoistic *******s that way :D

sirrouga
03-01-2010, 04:00 AM
Sorry to shift gears from fluff to rule set so I'll try to be quick.



I'd like to keep them as Tyranid Hunters. Tyranids are a big deal to the Kae'Moda, and they wouldn't have such a close-combat oriented unit if it weren't for them. I might opt to use the poisoned weapons, as that's a pretty good idea. However, I might also remake them so that they can be used for close combat or ranged fighting, depending on how you gear them.

Something like swapping your close combat weapon for either a Poison Weapon (4+), a shotgun (S3 AP- No Cover Saves?), or an anti-MC rifle (counts as twin linked VS Monstrous Creatures?). Just throwing some random ideas out there, personally I like the Poison Weapons still and shotguns and never bad. :P

In regard to SIB...

Teleporters I'm against. It's supposed to be his special thing and I don't want to take it away. Snipers is a good idea. I also need to put more Sniper rifles out there anyway. As they are now, they have a 5+ normal save, 6+ invul, and FNP. So in the end they're sorta survivable, but not entirely. Psykers in the army I'm against as that the Kae'Moda themselves are pretty hardcore against Psykers. However, allowing for the option to have a bound psyker wouldn't be too bad of an idea (much the same as a bound daemon-host).

Could add Sniper Rifles and Infiltrate. Having Feel No Pain makes up for not having Stealth. Might even be able to drop the armor or invulnerable save too depending on how well geared you want them yet controlling costs.

In regards to Spectres

I see what you mean about that. Make them 11-11-11 or 11-11-10 then? I'm definitely against them having FA of 10 though. I can see how these would be so deadly against other armies, even if all they do is tie up enemy squads, which can be equally bad against armies like Necrons or Tau anyway. I'll soften them up a little bit, but not too much.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to do with Spectres. The only way I could honestly see these guys working is either Front Armor 10 or changed into a monstrous creature. A Walker moving that fast is just not something certain armies can deal with. I would need some one's opinion on this one I guess. I understand that they are more meant to tie up but if they kill just one model and the opponent can't affect it, now they have the chance to force the enemy to run away and then sweeping advance them

In regard to the Regular Fire Teams having transports...

They do now, and I like how it turned out. It makes them able to be mechanized convoy, much the same as a modern Platoon in Humvees would be. I like the effect very much.

I wouldn't make it that each unit in the platoon must have a transport, simply due to point costs. Just to have a mechanized troop choice is going to cost an additional 150 - 350 points just in transports without upgrades. Still could keep it that they have to stay each other, just measured from the hull of the transports.

Speaking of transports...

Stalker
50 points is actually too much in my opinion. I would have it setup with a basic Storm Rifle by default and then can replace that Storm Rifle with either a Faust or GEP at their current point costs. Or make it that if no weapon is taken it can hold more infantry so the Elite choices have a better reason to take these guys. Also, are more veteran units driving these things or are Regulars? Just the BS that matters there (BS4 if veterans, BS3 if Regulars). If piloted by Regulars (thus BS3), I could the point cost could go as low as 25 points but 30 would be a safer number. It is an open topped standard vehicle that has less armor than a rhino after all.

Harbringer
Considering these guys are quite similar to the Valkyrie Assault Carrier, having a debatable stronger gun at BS4 for a cheaper cost is a little fishy (granted slightly less side armor and no scout move through).Also the point cost don't match up with the DeathStrike Gunship (base weapon loadout is the same but the DeathStrike is more points without being a transport). Hard thing to really price out considering it's load out as a Transport vehicle. I would keep the Cerberus AutoCannon on the DeathStrike only and put a different less heavy weapon as the default weapon on the Harbringer (A Faust would be best but I could see a missile launcher as an replacement too).

Oberst Viktor Morte
03-03-2010, 10:43 AM
This makes a little more sense, but I think you need to refresh your conception of what a corporation actually is. A corporation is a person formed by a group of people who invest their funds into it. Essentially it's an avatar for the group of people who deposited money into it.

If the CEO dies in transit, fair enough. But you've got to explain why rational people would donate their money to this venture. Nobody is going to donate money so that somebody else can set up an empire across the stars.Your analogy is humourous and makes sense. I was just going by the precedent that in 40K fluff it says that corporations settled across the stars as well, making their own empires. Made enough sense to me. When I write out the fluff in full I'll think up something to justify it.


Fair enough, I suppose, though there's still some holes here. "Chaos" is an Imperial-centric concept, after all. From a sociological standpoint what you just said was, "Some colonies spontaneously wage war on their neighbors." That could happen, I suppose, but it strikes me as distinctly ... well, Khornate.Well, here's the secret to my history. When I first made it, I made up all of it from scratch. I thought it turned out well enough, but when others cross-examined it more and more flaws were pointed out, and upon reexamining it later I found the overall 'story' of the history to be a bunch of loosely strung together unrelated events. When I set out to remake it I wanted it to have a more 'realistic' feel to it. Thus, I took a cue from GW and did what many a good writer does and I stole it. About half of the new history for the Kae'Moda is actually stolen from real history, and Chaos here is fulfilling a certain role for me that could not otherwise be well done in 40K fluff. Aside from that, Chaos was always their 'traditional' enemy before the emergence of the Tyranids.

Long story short, I'll find a better way to explain how and why Chaos ends up being an actual 'nation' and wars against others.


So ... an army, then? A really large army? I mean, you're talking about a thousand years of piracy.Well, it's more like fifty to a hundred years of war, which isn't really that unreasonable, and then over nine hundred years of rebuilding and re-expansion.


I agree that there are certainly small pockets of the galaxy where orks don't live, but I still have a hard time imagining seven thousand years going by without any orks visiting this area of space.You also have to remember that Orks were not nearly as widespread in the Dark Age of Technology as they are in the so-called "Time of Ending". And by not as widespread, I mean that their population and dispersion has increased a hundred fold, at least. Take a look at the map where it says Orks live in the 1st edition rulebook, and then at where they live in the 5th edition. I may decide to introduce them earlier on, but only in minor instances.


Out of curiosity, how "swift" are we talking here? Tau dive drives are safe FTL, and arguably swift, but still about an average of 1/3 as fast as a vessel traveling through the Warp with Navigator or Navigator-like assistance.I couldn't give you a ratio, but probably somewhere between the Tau and Imperial in terms of speed with their Alcubierre drive, which will get more powerful over time. When it was first invented though, it was probably 1/4-1/5 the speed. This is still not a perfect system, and ships do still occasionally get destroyed this way, as the ship breaks apart when the drive fails.

However, they do have a weapon which works this way, for the drive to intentionally fail. Essentially they have a drone which propels itself at an enemy ship with the Alcubierre drive and then has it shut off while traveling at near the speed of light without the proper counter-measures to slow it down. The drone is not meant to take that sort of speed and as it decelerates naturally the force on the hull breaks it to pieces, causing essentially giant pieces of shrapnel to fly at the target at relativistic speeds. It's sorta like a space shotgun that can destroy entire ships, space stations, or even entire worlds, due to destroying their atmosphere.

In addition, they also have "Jump gates" where they have a number of cosmic strings which connect them, allowing ships to travel at tremendous speeds, but only from one gate to its corresponding partner. I suppose they work somewhat like the gates in EVE online would.

Oh and by the way; **** yeah, physics!



Okay, that's fair enough. But there's nothing really Chaotic about an empire. What's pernicious about Chaos is the idea ... the idea that things can be better, that even the blackest despair can be survived, that it's okay to look after one's self, that it's okay to be mad, that fighting with honor matters. Those are the ideas from which Chaos cults spring. How does the Republic deal with them?See earlier post about Chaos as an empire, though that's not entirely unprecedented. In the Sabbat Crusade, they were trying to liberate an entire (cluster, sector, group of systems?) from Chaos control. Chaos may not be controlling an empire, per se, but certainly they control a number of worlds and can both attack and defend their own territory, which fits the bill pretty well.

Also, the Republic generally accepts others into their empire and let them continue to believe whatever they want to believe. However, I think that at some point they'll learn the hard way that they can't do this with Chaos cults. I'll try and work that into the history.



Why? Most starfaring Imperial subjects, I imagine, are pretty damn proud of the Imperium's immensity. Who has the Republic been talking to that they haven't figured out how huge the Imperium is? Or do they just refuse to believe what they've been told?Well, it's in part that they don't really understand what it means that the Imperium claims the entire galaxy under their control. It's also part that they don't really care. These planets are here now, and the Kae'Moda are nothing if not expansionists.



I don't think the Inquisition has anything to do with this. A group of humans that are not a part of the Imperium doesn't really fall under the Inquisition's mission statement. That is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy, which is part of the reason I question the timing here. Virtually every starship in the Imperium, even rogue trader vessels, would have clergy onboard, and even the lowliest cleric would surely recognize the divine imperative to evangelize fellow humans who somehow have survived for thousands of years outside the light of the Emperor. Shipboard chaplain communicates the existence of the Republic to the Ecclesiarchy via the ship's astropaths, the Ecclesiarchy dispatches missionaries, the missionaries fail to achieve a 100% conversion rate, the Ecclesiarchy requests a crusade be mustered under its leadership, and the Ecclesiarchy-led crusade comes in its billions to spread the Imperial Creed.

That's really the only way I can see this happening. I'm not saying the Imperium needs to crush the Republic, just that the events you've described lead inexorably to the Imperium trying to crush the Republic, and so far there's no convincing explanation as to why that hasn't happened. Two thousand years is a really long time, even for Imperial bureaucracy, so I'm wondering why the Republic hasn't had to deal with an Imperial crusade yet.

In many ways this situation is similar to that of the Tau Empire, which has had to deal with an Imperial crusade, and was really only saved by the arrival of the tyranids. The key differences that you've identified so far are that the Republic makes contact with the Imperium way before the tyranids arrive, and heathen humans would probably be a higher priority for the Imperium than yet another minor xenos empire.Well, this is a compelling point. They may have encountered a Crusade in the past, but their current state remains as it is and so they'd of had to have destroyed the entire Crusade. If they didn't, wouldn't that mean that the Imperium would hear word of it and send a bigger Crusade, and then another, and another, until the Republic was destroyed and the Imperium would have wasted a ton of resources on destroying people who are halfway on their side anyway against Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, ect.



Too be fair to his fluff, there already IS a precedent for a lot of the things he's claiming... in that little tech empire on the Eastern Fringe.

While it's true that the Tau did lay a smackdown on some Orks while fighting over their outer colonies, the Tau were unmolested for virtually their entire history. Only recently, during their large sphere expansions have they really come into contact with them. While it is true that Orks are prolific, I imagine there are sectors of space where they are virtually nonexistent... in fact I imagine it would be quite common. After all, there are PLENTY of imperial sectors that have no problem at all with them at all. The mechanicus probe picking up signal so far out is less of a testament to their saturation as it is to their dispersion.

In addition, the Tau also don't know how big the Imperium is, and they've taken over plenty of Imperial worlds. I imagine it's because when they ask "Hey, new guys, how big is this Imperium of Man anyway?" And the response they get is "A trillion." It's a little hard to take them seriously. After all, I imagine any reasonable government who is presented with the scale and workings of the Imperium would consider it an idea of insanity.I don't really have much to respond to this moreso than, "Yes, this." Also, I thought the Tau analogy for how big the Imperium is and whatnot was hilarious.



Something like swapping your close combat weapon for either a Poison Weapon (4+), a shotgun (S3 AP- No Cover Saves?), or an anti-MC rifle (counts as twin linked VS Monstrous Creatures?). Just throwing some random ideas out there, personally I like the Poison Weapons still and shotguns and never bad. :P

In regard to SIB...
Could add Sniper Rifles and Infiltrate. Having Feel No Pain makes up for not having Stealth. Might even be able to drop the armor or invulnerable save too depending on how well geared you want them yet controlling costs.Well, I'm changing the Flechette rifle into effectively a shotgun with flechette shells. 12" S4 AP4 Assault2, if you're within 6" it becomes AP3. And if the Kae'Moda are within 6", something is wrong. An idea, to prevent people from having them instantly charge afterwords (which is against Kae'Moda doctrine with few exceptions) is to make it 18" Rapid Fire.

Also, SIB are getting the option to replace their pistols with rifles, and if they do they can get sniper rifles. I might make it so that they can have two entirely different layouts, perhaps give them options like IG Veterans have.


I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to do with Spectres. The only way I could honestly see these guys working is either Front Armor 10 or changed into a monstrous creature. A Walker moving that fast is just not something certain armies can deal with. I would need some one's opinion on this one I guess. I understand that they are more meant to tie up but if they kill just one model and the opponent can't affect it, now they have the chance to force the enemy to run away and then sweeping advance them.I'll think on it. I don't like the idea of making it FA10 as it allows Marines to tear it apart with their bear hands (something which always irked me), but I just might have to. They'd certainly get a lot cheaper after that.


In regard to the Regular Fire Teams having transports...
I wouldn't make it that each unit in the platoon must have a transport, simply due to point costs. Just to have a mechanized troop choice is going to cost an additional 150 - 350 points just in transports without upgrades. Still could keep it that they have to stay each other, just measured from the hull of the transports.Well, they're now 25pts with no upgrades, I'd never gotten around to fixing that when I lessened the armour. They also have two new things about them. Special rule: crew served weapons. Vehicles uses BS of majority of passengers. Wargear: Armoured Compartment. 10pt upgrade, no longer counts as open topped and increases side armour to 11.


Stalker
50 points is actually too much in my opinion. I would have it setup with a basic Storm Rifle by default and then can replace that Storm Rifle with either a Faust or GEP at their current point costs. Or make it that if no weapon is taken it can hold more infantry so the Elite choices have a better reason to take these guys. Also, are more veteran units driving these things or are Regulars? Just the BS that matters there (BS4 if veterans, BS3 if Regulars). If piloted by Regulars (thus BS3), I could the point cost could go as low as 25 points but 30 would be a safer number. It is an open topped standard vehicle that has less armor than a rhino after all.Err, see above.


Harbringer
Considering these guys are quite similar to the Valkyrie Assault Carrier, having a debatable stronger gun at BS4 for a cheaper cost is a little fishy (granted slightly less side armor and no scout move through).Also the point cost don't match up with the DeathStrike Gunship (base weapon loadout is the same but the DeathStrike is more points without being a transport). Hard thing to really price out considering it's load out as a Transport vehicle. I would keep the Cerberus AutoCannon on the DeathStrike only and put a different less heavy weapon as the default weapon on the Harbringer (A Faust would be best but I could see a missile launcher as an replacement too).Something I never really noticed, about the Harbinger and Deathstrike. I'll try and work this out. The Harbinger is supposed to be like a Hind, whereas the Deathstrike is supposed to be more like an Apache. I'll try and sort them out.

Again, thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. I'll try and work feverishly on it when I get a chance, trying to provide a new update next week. Oh, and a little note, I changed all the text from 12pt font to 10pt to make it look more like a page from a GW codex. So far I like the look, and it means that I'm going to have to insert a lot more flavour text and background fluff. I'm still going to try and keep the history to 15-20 pages, so that means that I have a ton of history to cover. I think I can handle it. 8)

Nabterayl
03-03-2010, 12:22 PM
Your analogy is humourous and makes sense. I was just going by the precedent that in 40K fluff it says that corporations settled across the stars as well, making their own empires. Made enough sense to me. When I write out the fluff in full I'll think up something to justify it.
Yeah, I don't doubt that corporations could do that; it's just that they would do it for their shareholders. If you're familiar with the history of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, I think that's a very plausible way for the whole "corporation-as-star-empire" thing to play out.


Well, here's the secret to my history. When I first made it, I made up all of it from scratch. I thought it turned out well enough, but when others cross-examined it more and more flaws were pointed out, and upon reexamining it later I found the overall 'story' of the history to be a bunch of loosely strung together unrelated events. When I set out to remake it I wanted it to have a more 'realistic' feel to it. Thus, I took a cue from GW and did what many a good writer does and I stole it. About half of the new history for the Kae'Moda is actually stolen from real history, and Chaos here is fulfilling a certain role for me that could not otherwise be well done in 40K fluff. Aside from that, Chaos was always their 'traditional' enemy before the emergence of the Tyranids.

Long story short, I'll find a better way to explain how and why Chaos ends up being an actual 'nation' and wars against others.
I do see the historical parallels, just wanted to point out that the external versions of Chaos are really kind of its least worrisome form.


Well, it's more like fifty to a hundred years of war, which isn't really that unreasonable, and then over nine hundred years of rebuilding and re-expansion.
Ah, fair enough. I like that.


Well, this is a compelling point. They may have encountered a Crusade in the past, but their current state remains as it is and so they'd of had to have destroyed the entire Crusade. If they didn't, wouldn't that mean that the Imperium would hear word of it and send a bigger Crusade, and then another, and another, until the Republic was destroyed and the Imperium would have wasted a ton of resources on destroying people who are halfway on their side anyway against Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, ect.
Yeah, it is one of those irritating facts about the Imperium from a writer's perspective. Here's a couple of ways I can think of off the top of my head to avoid either the "Death by Crusade" or "We Have A Strategic 1000:1 Kill Ratio" results:
Intentionally or not, the Kae'Moda manage to stall the Ecclesiarchy because the Imperial Creed makes [perhaps slow] steady in-roads throughout the Republic. As long conversion by persuasion is working, the Ecclesiarchy is loathe to spend the political capital necessary to gather a crusade when it can send more missionaries instead.
A crusade is planned, but luckily for the Republic, completely unrelated political infighting between the Ecclesiarch and the <insert other High Lord or Imperial Adeptus here> means that the Ecclesiarch is unable to muster a true crusade. What does arrive is a mongrel force that, though vast, is just small enough and/or badly organized enough that the Republic can defeat it after a hard slog.
A crusade is planned, but only after the Republic had a chance to get some idea of how the Imperium works. Clever Republican politicians are able to gain the support of the local cardinal astral, who favors giving his missionaries additional centuries to convert the Republic rather than the blunt-force crusade option favored by more distant ecclesiarchs. With the local cardinal being as obstructionist as he can, the crusade has a difficult time making headway. Though the Republic is attacked, eventually it is called off for logistical reasons. A portion of the crusade attacks the cardinal as a heretic, and bitter in-fighting consumes the Imperium's attention in the direction of the Republic for some time. The rest of the crusade is siphoned off to other warzones.
A crusade is planned, but lost in the warp.
The messages of the first astropaths to the Ecclesiarchy are lost in the warp, or garbled so badly as to be unintelligible. Though other parts of the Imperium are aware of the Republic's existence, the Ecclesiarchy remains blissfully ignorant (at a high level) for centuries or even millennia, as everybody simply assumes that the Ecclesiarchy already knows about the Republic and is taking whatever action it feels is necessary.
A crusade is planned, but due to an error by the Administratum, it is never actually mustered. Hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments dissolve and "go native" as they languish for centuries without orders, the Munitorum assuming that they have already been ordered to the crusade. By the time the error is corrected billions of Imperial Guardsmen have effectively left the service - ironically causing a greater blow to the Guard than the Republic could ever hope to achieve in its wildest dreams.
A crusade is planned, and its overwhelming force rolls into Republican space, but it is siphoned off by a more urgent threat (such as the 13th Black Crusade or a tyranid hive fleet).
A crusade is planned, but it is intercepted (intentionally or not) by an ork Waaagh! or tyranid hive fleet.
A crusade is planned, but its warmaster is badly chosen, and the Republic is able to direct him away from his appointed task. The Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus eventually realize that the warmaster has gone rogue, but he has planned for this eventuality and the Hereticus' attempts to remove him from power directly fail. The crusade dissolves into infighting as those loyal to the warmaster fight with those who obey the Inquisitorial mandate of whatever inquisitor is sent to correct the issue.
Or some combination thereof. Just some ideas.


I'll think on it. I don't like the idea of making it FA10 as it allows Marines to tear it apart with their bear hands (something which always irked me), but I just might have to. They'd certainly get a lot cheaper after that.
Out of curiosity, does it also irk you that a frag grenade in a joint could damage the walker? Because if not, it might just be that you don't like how strong space marines, orks, etc. really are.

Oberst Viktor Morte
03-23-2010, 07:10 PM
Well, it's been much longer than I'd of liked since I last made an update. I'm leaving for basic training in April and so my girlfriend wants to spend as much time with me as she can before I leave. I'm not arguing, but it also means that I'm not spending that much time at home to work on the codex. However, in August I'll be back and then I have three more years of school to finish this thing. Anyway, I've gotten quite a bit done and have an updated version of the codex:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz4khldnqwd

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28825476

The obligatory warning; the PDF has gotten up to 20 megabytes and is about 55 pages long now (though not all pages are complete).

I think I addressed most of the major concerns, barring those that I'm being stubborn on. However, one of the biggest changes that I made was to change all of the type-font from 12pt to 10pt, which makes it the same size as official GW codices. Not only do I think that it makes it look better, but also it allows me to get in a lot more information (generally fluff) on one unit, piece of wargear, ect. than I was able to before. I'm pretty excited about that. But anyway, here are some of the other changes I made:

- I started on the history, which is almost two pages long and hasn't even gotten to the Great Crusade yet. I'm still estimating that it will be at least 15-20 pages, perhaps longer if I add in little anecdotes and biographies. One thing I'm worried about is that it sounds a little pedantic so far. It's supposed to sound like an actual history text, but I'm just wondering if this has made it a bit too boring.

- Made up a Creed for the Kae'Moda military. More a fluff and filler thing than anything else.

- Finalized rules and pages for the Command Squad, ATCV, Regulars, Black Berets, and Tyranid Hunters. Command Skill "Feign" added.

- Special Intelligence Bureau now upgraded to either Clean-up Squads or Stalker Squads, with different wargear and special rules. I actually like them beyond fluff and would use them now. =P

- Spectre made 11-11-11. (Not reflected on unit description page, but is correct on Army List and Summary page)

- Special Characters slightly adjusted, pictures added for most. A new character will be added because I have an extra page and don't have anything else to put there. Sounds like a crappy reason, I know, but it should work out fine.

- Cloaking field now gives Stealth USR, Reactive Camouflage added, Occular Implants added. (No units have either as an upgrade yet.)

- Multi-rocket pod removed, replaced by Short and Long Range Missile Racks. I personally think the concept turned out pretty well.

Those are the main things. I did some tinkering here and there, so let me know what you think if you happen to check it out. Thank you in advance!

Porty1119
06-13-2010, 06:40 PM
The Harbinger looks ridiculously awesome. May I ask where the picture came from?

Oberst Viktor Morte
02-28-2011, 06:27 PM
After a long time of no work on the codex (in large due to being away at Basic and AIT for the Army and then coming back to school) I finally have updates!

I'll get around to updating this thread here soon, but for the time being it'd be easier to just go over to the PAGE blog, which is local for me and will be the primary hosting place for the codex from here on out, with updates still being put up here every so often.

http://pagexcellence.blogspot.com/