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gannam
02-26-2010, 11:03 AM
For the sake of this article, we are going to start the conversation out assuming that GW will rule against being able to affect embarked units.

That being said, this is still a very effective unit and when used properly can wreak serious havoc amongst your opponent.

The first thing we need to talk about with the doom are his weaknesses.

1. Synapse - Despite what you may think, this creature is not a synapse creature and can revert to instinctive behavior. His leadership is a 10 so the odds are very small that this will happen, but it is something to keep in mind. He uses the instinctive behavior feed and will basically assault the closest thing to him, foregoing his shooting attack if he fails a leadership test.

2. Toughness 4 - Power fists, Thunder Hammers, force weapons, melta guns, las cannons, and most artillery will instantly destroy a Doom no matter how many wounds he has. All it takes is one failed 3+ invun save.

3. Mobility - If an opposing army moves away from the doom before he has a chance to soak up any wounds, he is a walking shadow of the warp and not much else. If this happens, I will typically seek out some of my other squads and use him for support.

Ok, now that you know the weaknesses of the doom, let’s talk about how to use him effectively.

There are several types of deployments that an enemy will choose that will benefit the doom, so in my opinion the best way to use him, is put him in a spore pod and drop him "post" deployment.

What you are looking for is exposed units that are either in cover, or are marching forward. I typically drop the spore pod 1 inch away from anything dangerous and then hope for a low scatter roll.

Once he drops in, you want to position the unit as close to the enemy troops as possible, while getting as many units within your 6 inch bubble as you can. If you are lucky enough to get close to large infantry unit without a powerfist or other str 8 weapon, you are advised to immediately assault that unit "although you can't do this until the turn after you drop". This will protect your doom from reprisal from lascannons and melta shots during the enemies shooting phase and still allows your doom to soak up wounds from the engaged infantry unit during both shooting phases.

Also don't forget that once you get 8 to 10 wounds to start punishing tanks during your shooting phase with that str 8 to 10 AP 1 cataclysm. The range is very good on this weapon.

Finally here is a breakdown by army of how I have best used the doom

Doom vs space marines - Devastator squads, sternguard in drop pods, scouts, assault squads and exposed tactical squads will die in droves to the doom. keep yourself in assault so you don't get rapid fired down.

Doom vs eldar and dark eldar - I personally will drop the doom right into a farseer council. Yes, I might die quickly, but I am almost certain to get my points back. Eldar do not have a ton of high str melee weapons so almost any infantry will fall to the doom. I have yet to play against dark eldar so I don't really have alot to say on that.

Doom vs IG - Ahh yes, command squads, heavy weapons teams, large veteran squads, almost anything IG will fall to the doom.

Doom vs chaos space marines - This guy is really good at taking out squads of obliterators, Khorne beserkers "might want to stay out of melee there" and especially plague marines.

Doom vs chaos demons - This one is a bit tricky as the deployment of demons is never a sure thing. Just look for soft spots, or use the doom to try and leech a few wounds off of a demon prince before he wipes you off the board.

Doom vs Orks - This guy is great if dropped right into a nest of nobz or even mass amounts of boyz. Now, he will probably get dropped though if he gets assaulted by by 30 boyz, but he might take 15 of them out with him. Try and drop him next to lootas and burners though and they will pay big time.

Doom vs nids - If you can find a large group of termagaunts, this guy is awseome. just assault them and they will feed you for multiple turns, forcing the nid player to always be looking over his shoulder. Also if you can find hive guard sitting by themselves, or biovores, he's great, because they only have a 7 leadership. Stay away from large groups of hormagaunts with poison glands though because you won’t get your points back.

Doom vs necron - I think that this is where the doom is at his peak since necron has no mechanized units to speak of. Just be careful not to park him next to a unit of guys only to have them get sucked into a monolith leaving you all by yourself.

Doom vs Tau - Crisis suits. OH MY GOD. I love to kill crisis suits with the doom. nothing pisses off a tau player by having a doom drop into the middle of his turtled position and he can't do 10 wounds back to you. I have tabled tau players in 3 turns with 1 doom dropping into this ranks.

I hope this helps you in your gaming. Have a good one.

AdamHarry
02-26-2010, 11:06 AM
For the sake of this article, we are going to start the conversation out assuming that GW will rule against being able to affect embarked units.




They did. In the new FAQ


Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.


edit:
ok so it's not a psychic attack.

But that's from the new FAQ. It's dated Feb 2010.

Vepr
02-26-2010, 11:14 AM
They did. In the new FAQ

This brings us back though to the argument about his power. It is not a psychic attack or even a shooting attack. He does not have to roll for it or target a unit.

gcsmith
02-26-2010, 11:15 AM
Adam 1st thing That was in old FAQ. And 2nd its not a psychic power.

Tynskel
02-26-2010, 11:27 AM
They did. In the new FAQ

Yo!

I know exactly how far BEHIND on the TIMES you are:

That FAQ was released LAST MARCH of 2009.




One more thing: 'Spirit Leech' is NOT A PSYCHIC POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOWEVER: Cataclysm IS a Psychic Power.

AdamHarry
02-26-2010, 11:34 AM
Yo!

I know exactly how far BEHIND on the TIMES you are:

That FAQ was released LAST MARCH of 2009.






This is from the new FAQ. It's a Copy+Paste Job. it's dated Feb 2010. Maybe you should read the FAQ before calling me the "BEHIND" one.

here it is. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_FAQ_40Krulebook_Feb2010.pdf)

Melissia
02-26-2010, 11:44 AM
Don't mind Tynskel, he's a bit of a zpaz. Spazzing out all over the recent BoLS blog comments area like only his constant spamming can provide victory over internet opinions.

Tynskel
02-26-2010, 12:06 PM
This is from the new FAQ. It's a Copy+Paste Job. it's dated Feb 2010. Maybe you should read the FAQ before calling me the "BEHIND" one.

here it is. (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2030054_FAQ_40Krulebook_Feb2010.pdf)

Oh,

I read that 'feb 2010' FAQ

if you read the old one, you would have noticed that the Blue font is now Black in the Feb one.


I am not Spazzing out....


No wait... I am Spazzing out.

You guys really should just read your rulebook. If you look at the FAQ, just about everything in there was ALREADY SOLVED by the MAIN RULEBOOK.

People confuse 4th edition and 5th edition (and sometimes 3rd edition). You just go through each section, play some examples, you'll notice that the Rulebook is very well designed.

Melissia
02-26-2010, 12:09 PM
Regardless of your spazzing out, passengers within a transport are pretty much untargetable by enemy units. If the Doom of Malontai can use its powers against transported units, then so, too, can the Masque make units within a transport dance.

gcsmith
02-26-2010, 12:26 PM
Fair enough but it does nothing really, -1 leadership or -1 movement

psycatic
02-26-2010, 01:44 PM
If you are dead set against using pods, you can always use the hive tyrant ability and outflank him.

Unfortunately, Hive Tyrant's Hive Commander ability can only outflank TROOPS. So the pod is really the only way to play him.


If you are lucky enough to get close to large infantry unit without a powerfist or other str 8 weapon, you are advised to immediately assault that unit.

Can't assault after podding. But if on your next turn the Doom is still alive, it is highly suggested to assault.

But most else in this article I agree with.

gannam
02-26-2010, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the tips. I will edit the article

Drakkan Vael
02-27-2010, 05:13 AM
Regardless of your spazzing out, passengers within a transport are pretty much untargetable by enemy units. If the Doom of Malontai can use its powers against transported units, then so, too, can the Masque make units within a transport dance.

Calling someone a spazz because he's of a different opinion than you are is a bit rich. It's like calling you an idiot only because you mistake Spirit Leech for a psychic power.

Remember Jwolfs global warning and keep civilized.

And Tynskel is right. The answer regarding psychic powers affecting troops in transports is old. - And it does absolutely nothing to clarify the situation regarding the DOOM.

Herald of Nurgle
02-27-2010, 02:10 PM
Personally, I consider the Doom's Leech to be a RAI Latent Psychic Power - much like Warlock Powers. On the other hand, I know that RAW that isn't the case.

A decent opponent will give you the benefit of the whole 'no affecting troops in transports' - technically, the models are removed from the board if anything, putting them far away from Doom. And anyway, blah blah blah overpowered blah why would they be stupid enough to place Doom right next to a decent target when they know that Doom'll die to it.

I find that things such as Lash are perfect for Doom - if you're happy enough to waste the movement from afar then you can pretty much permanently keep them from your lines. Also, it's a use for Chaos Spawn - as Beasts they'll be out of Doom range, and can then charge into the annoying thing...

Tynskel
02-27-2010, 03:41 PM
Regardless of your spazzing out, passengers within a transport are pretty much untargetable by enemy units. If the Doom of Malontai can use its powers against transported units, then so, too, can the Masque make units within a transport dance.

Incorrect. You are mistaking 'Spirit Leech' as a weapon. The Pavane of Slannesh specifically says that the power is a RANGED WEAPON. Ranged weapons cannot target units that are embarked.

'Spirit Leech' is an AOE effect, NOT a Weapon.

I understand you think I am spazzing, but every time someone tries to come up with a counter argument to the 40k Rulebook, they have not done their homework. The Rulebook is quite clear, and people are leaving things out, going off of hearsay, and introducing opinions.

Melissia
02-27-2010, 04:27 PM
It doesn't matter that Spirit Leech is not a "weapon". You have STILL yet to prove that it effects passengers on a transport. All an "AoE effect" is is basically a template (ie pieplate) based on the model that uses it. Even if it doesn't use the pieplate template in specific it has the same general effect as a pieplate that is always put over the center of the unit. It's similar to the "PBAoE" (Player Based Area of Effect) concept in MMORPGs.


Calling someone a spazz because he's of a different opinion than you are is a bit rich.
I called him a spaz because he's spamming it all over the lounge and the bols blog comments area. I never said anything about the Spirit Leech being a psychic power though, but I suppose literacy is too much to ask fo you.

Madness
02-27-2010, 04:37 PM
The difference appears to be in the word "unit" as opposed as "model". Embarked units are still targetable, while models are not. Blasts and templates affect models, so do standard shooting, since there's no model for embarked units, there's no hit. Spirit Leech affect units, and the unit is "accessible" as per page 66 rule.

So, RAW says it's possible, the FAQ added an exception for psychic powers (SPIRIT LEECH IS NOT A PSYCHIC POWER), but it's an indicator of how they are developing the rules and perhaps of what's coming in the future.

Personally I see many tourneys FAQing this possibility away.

Tynskel
02-27-2010, 05:19 PM
It doesn't matter that Spirit Leech is not a "weapon". You have STILL yet to prove that it effects passengers on a transport. All an "AoE effect" is is basically a template (ie pieplate) based on the model that uses it. Even if it doesn't use the pieplate template in specific it has the same general effect as a pieplate that is always put over the center of the unit. It's similar to the "PBAoE" (Player Based Area of Effect) concept in MMORPGs.


I called him a spaz because he's spamming it all over the lounge and the bols blog comments area. I never said anything about the Spirit Leech being a psychic power though, but I suppose literacy is too much to ask fo you.

I have a question for you Melissa: When do you use the rule on p. 66 "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

According to your 'interpretation', which is baseless and unsupported, no ability, effect, power can do anything to a unit within a Transport. Please site rules for your interpretation. The ONLY rule I can find on this situation is on p. 66. The rule is EXPLICIT. Measure to the Hull for any Range Effect. Then it says Disallow Shooting. Blast markers from guns are Shooting, and they explicitly state that MODELS whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast are hit p. 30! This is explicitly stating that the Models must be touched by the template.

The 'Spirit Leech' rule says to effect any unit within 6" of Doom. Since it is not shooting, p. 66 applies. To see if the unit is under the area, you measure to the hull of the embarked unit. Since the unit is within 6", the unit is effected.

Guns don't effect embarked units, because the rulebook specifically forbids this on p. 66. You are checking your range to the unit, but the rule says 'except for its shooting'.

Madness
02-27-2010, 05:29 PM
But is it a range? DoM's SL (which I'm going to call DoMSL from now on) states no range, it says "unit within 6"", how can you measure if a unit is within 6" when there's no model available? It's not a range (strictly speaking) so page 66 rule may not apply.

Tynskel
02-27-2010, 08:13 PM
But is it a range? DoM's SL (which I'm going to call DoMSL from now on) states no range, it says "unit within 6"", how can you measure if a unit is within 6" when there's no model available? It's not a range (strictly speaking) so page 66 rule may not apply.

You cannot be serious!

Range:
the horizontal direction or extension of a survey line established by two or more marked points.
the distance of something to be located from some point of operation, as in sound ranging.
(dictionary.com)

Units within 6" of Doom...

Measuring Distances p.3
"When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your REFERENCE POINTS..."

Hence, a range.

Don't forget to look at the picture- there is an example measure a range to the hull... p. 3

Start point: Doom of Malan'tai.
End Point- 6" away.

p. 66 "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull"

Start point: Doom of Malan'tai.
End Point: Vehicle's Hull (no more than 6" away)

You should understand what your vocabulary words mean before you make some silly statements.

Madness
02-27-2010, 08:40 PM
So you took one of the two definitions and decided it was the right one. Nice.

Specially if we consider that everywhere else range means the OTHER thing.

Tynskel
02-27-2010, 09:48 PM
So you took one of the two definitions and decided it was the right one. Nice.

Specially if we consider that everywhere else range means the OTHER thing.

Actually, that is not the case.

The other definitions of Range (20 or so of them) dealt with gun shooting ranges, math ranges, cattle ranges, ect.

I noticed you didn't point out any that contradict what I said. Because they don't. They either have nothing to do with what I was talking about, or they were too specific: like:

a line established by markers or lights on shore for the location of soundings

one of a series of divisions numbered east or west from the principal meridian of the survey and consisting of a row of townships, each six miles square, that are numbered north or south from a base line.

a continuous course of masonry of the same height from end to end

the distance of the target from the weapon.

the extent or scope of the operation or action of something

the extent to which or the limits between which variation is possible

the difference between the largest and smallest values in a statistical distribution

a row, line, or series, as of persons or things



The point is there are multiple definitions of a Range. In the Case for 40k- Range is the measure of a distance between two points. It isn't the Mathematical use form: a series of numbers, nor is it referring to a Ranch. The ones involving weapons are very specific versions of the general ones that I picked for my Paragraph.

At least I use SOURCES for my information. I do not make stuff up. You checked my source, but didn't clue anyone into what was wrong, because there wasn't anything wrong with my statement.

The two I picked were appropriate to the discussion:
the horizontal direction or extension of a survey line established by two or more marked points
the distance of something to be located from some point of operation, as in sound ranging

The 'Spirit Leech' ability uses a distance between two points, the base of the Doom of Malan'tai, and the target unit (base or hull). Hence: Range.

Boo-Ya!

Madness
02-27-2010, 09:52 PM
Again, you use one of the (as you said) 20 or so definitions of range, I use the other one that's used through all the book and on the codex, the range of a weapon.

Tynskel
02-27-2010, 10:04 PM
Again, you use one of the (as you said) 20 or so definitions of range, I use the other one that's used through all the book and on the codex, the range of a weapon.

Yeah, of which, on page 3, is the measurement between two points- if you read the shooting section how to measure the 'range to target' you consult p. 3. Which is the same as the definition of the word 'range'.

Spirit Leech, Cold Steel n' Courage, Psychic Hood, Aura of Despair, Souless, Brood Progenitor, Shadows of the Warp, ect ect ect all of which have you measure between two points, as defined on p. 3, which is a Range.

GW used the English language to write their rulebook...

Madness
02-27-2010, 10:09 PM
Range as in "the maximum effective distance a weapon can be used at" is english isn't it? Page 3 uses the term distance, not range.

Tynskel
02-27-2010, 10:26 PM
Range as in "the maximum effective distance a weapon can be used at" is english isn't it? Page 3 uses the term distance, not range.

p. 17

"All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically."

I am sorry, man. You are grasping for Straws.

Range is not being defined in the rulebook here. Range is a defined word being used in a sentence.

Words are short cuts to compact more information in a smaller form.

This is how the sentence is ACTUALLY read using the definition of 'Range':

All weapons have a maximum effective distance of something to be located from some point of operation, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum distance of something to be located from some point of operation, the shot misses automatically.

This phrase is a complete mouthful and takes forever to read. Instead of using 22 extra words, it is much easier to use the word 'Range'.

Crotch Lictor
03-01-2010, 01:35 PM
I hate to threadjack the threadjack, but thanks for the tips gannam. I plan to use him soon against IG, Orks, SM and Chaos Marines in some of my local friendly games. Can you elaborate on how he eats Plague Marines? Do they not get FNP against the Leech, or is it the blast attack you were talking about?

Zelron
03-01-2010, 02:09 PM
They don't get "Feel no Pain" against "Spirit Leech" because it ignores armour saves and they don't get "FnP" against the psychic shooting attack because it's AP1.

gannam
03-01-2010, 04:32 PM
Plague marines have a toughness 5 and feel no pain. That's what makes them a plague marine.

Spirit leech pretty much ignores anything that makes a plague marine special. In a game of getting your points back, the more expensive of a unit you can drop the doom into, the more appealing he becomes.

Hence why he eats them for breakfast.

Crotch Lictor
03-02-2010, 01:19 PM
Got it. Thanks. Just got to watch our for the inevitable melta in the PM squad. I still plan to try him out. I bought the Alien Brain model from Troll Forged Miniatures a while back to use as a Zoanthrope .Looks like a great candidate for the Doom model. I'll probably model some GS scything talons on him to make it a litle more 3 dimensional, and go with that.