Long-time Lurker needs help with Ultramarines!

[Image]

Hey guys! I've been lurking around here and Warseer for quite some time, but have never posted as I usually find all the posts so comprehensive that I have little else to add. :) Consequently, I often come here for general questions/concerns and see the direction that the community is considering new rules, tactics, etc.

Anyhow, I was at a recent tournament and, honestly, did really poorly. I think it was largely due to my army list not having a direct focus, nothing that it specialized in. I looked at what I had painted, and took what I thought would be the most useful.

So, this is my new list that I'm starting early in order to be certain that I'll be ready for the next tournament and with greater focus.

Ultramarines, 1850 pts.

HQ:
Sicarius - 200

Elites:
Ironclad Dreadnought -200
w/ Heavy Flamer replacing Storm Bolter
Hunter Killer Missile x 2
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought -200
w/ Heavy Flamer replacing Storm Bolter
Hunter Killer Missile x 2
Drop Pod

Dreadnought - 165
w/ Assault Cannon
Extra Armour
Drop Pod

Troops:

Scouts x 5 - 100
w/ Camo Cloaks
Missile Launcher

Scouts x 5 - 90
w/ Power Weapon

Tactical Marines x 5 - 180
w/ Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun & Extra Armour

Tactical Marines x 10 - 260
w/ Power Fist, Meltagun, Lascannon
Rhino
Extra Armour

Tactical Marines x 10 - 245
w/ Power Fist, Flamer, Missile Launcher
Rhino
Extra Armour

Fast Attack:

Attack Bikes x 3 - 150
w/ Multi-meltas

Land Speeder Storm - 50


This works out to 1850 points exactly. The general idea behind it is to rapidly advance and take out high priority targets early (Land Raiders, Vindicators, for instance). Using the Ironclad Dreadnoughts should offer some distraction along the enemy lines, providing some extra safety for my advancing Rhinos/Razorback. Plus, with Sicarius, one of my Tac Squads will scout move forward as will the Land Speeder Storm with the 5 Scouts with a Power Weapon. Or, I'll hold them off to the side for later-game objective grabs.

Comments and criticism welcome and will be appreciated. Thank you very much!

[Tynskel]

You cannot take a five man tac squad and give them a special weapon. The entry states that when you reach 10 mans, you can take a special weapon and a heavy weapon.


Hahah Hahahahah
hahahahahahah

I read that the Razorback had lascannon and the squad had plasma rifle.

The razorback actually has the Las/plasma.

My Bad.

[Tynskel]

If you do not get first turn, you have nothing to draw fire away from your transports.

Hmmm...

I know you have the 3 drop pods to get 2 pods in on turn one.

The easiest fix I can see is to drop the regular Dreadnought. That's 165. Then Drop the Camo-cloaked Scouts- that's another 100.

Take a Vindicator with extra armor and siege shield. (140). Then Take a Thunderfire Cannon with a Drop Pod (135). You can drop a lascannon to a missile Launcher in one tactical squad to make up the 10 point difference.

This gives you your 3rd pod for dropping 2 pods in on turn 1. You do not have to have the Thunderfire Cannon in the pod. The combat squad heavy weapon can be placed into ruins that are buffed by the Techmarine Manning the Thunderfire cannon. The Vindicator gives something for your opponent to shoot on turn one, rather than the transports.

Personally, I do not like taking extra armor on Razorbacks and Rhinos. The off hand chance of being able to move after being penetrated/glanced is rare, and that is 45 points you could use to beef up the squads. That's combi-meltas for the sgt in the squad with a melta gun (10 points). Combi-flamer for the Sgt. with the flamer squad (10 points). And a Plasma pistol and melta bombs for the Sgt of the scout squad (20 points)

I also recommend dropping the Hunterkillers off the Ironclads in exchange for the Assault Launchers. Being able to charge through cover and go at Initiative 4 is REALLLLLLLY nice. And denying a would be Ironclad killer an extra attack on the charge is good too!

This would put you at +15 points again... so maybe you wouldn't have to drop the lascannon off the tac squad anyhow.

[Tynskel]

One last suggestion.

I like to give Ironclad Dreadnought Drop Pods a Deathwind Launcher.

This is, obviously, pricey, and a personal choice.

However, I have had much success with the Deathwind Launcher.

People either shoot the pods right away, or they ignore them. You want your opponent to shoot the pods rather than your transports and other priority targets. The way to 'encourage' your opponent to shoot the pods is to make them an actual threat. A str 5 Pie-plate does the job quite nicely!

[Image]

I definitely see your points and a lot of my deployment would depend on whether or not I'm likely to go first. Having Sicarius means that I'm more likely to go first, but it's certainly not a guarantee.

For the three dreads, I think they provide some really nice forward support and put pressure early on, protecting my advancing transports. As you mentioned, though, Tynskel, that's if I go first. A lot of this is dependent on going first and will obviously indicate my deployment methods.

The Assault launchers on the Ironclads is a solid idea and the reason I went with the H.K missiles is to increase my chances of taking out a non-AV 14. One of them is already made with this configuration, but perhaps I'll go with Assault Launchers and no Hunter-Killer missiles on the second Ironclad once I pick him up and put him together. Do you think that would be a good idea?

I've had mixed success with the Thunderfire Cannon. Being vulnerable to Str 4 shooting makes me really uncomfortable with it, especially that it costs 100 points. I recognize that the Bolster Defenses rule helps a lot, however.

As a note, I have the five man squad in the Razorback in order to give Sicarius a transport and some added bodies. Sicarius will likely stay within my deployment, with the Razorback firing (hopefully in cover), and will only come out if he can help make a difference to protect rear-field objectives.

As for the Scouts, I know that they're not fantastic, but with my expectation that the Tyranids will be more common come next tournament, they'll be okay at MC hunting.

EDIT: To note, I'm certainly going to look into dropping Extra armour on my rhinos/razorback. I never really thought about it, the way you put it. It is, in fact, a slim chance of gaining this result and whether or not the extra points is worth that risk is certainly in consideration for me.

[tabyrd]

The problem with the pods is what if your opponent goes into reserve or what if you have first turn on a dawn of war deployment? You are stuck bringing in half on turn 1. Where do you drop the dreads? More often than not, the dreads get left out in lala land and your opponent can focus fire on other parts of your army while your dreads hoof it. You are relying on the dreads to provide some early distraction/destruction on turn 1. If the opponent denies you that by reserving or outflanking, etc around your deployment, you have a good deal of points that are out of position at best.

[Tynskel]

The Ironclad Assault Launchers are a must- Your army's anti-close combat is thin (really, sicarius is your most powerful CC guy, and he is just good at killin' mobs). The Ironclad can be thrown at just about any CC unit and will muck things up. The last thing you want is to try to charge a Carnifex, and go at the same time.

Thunderfire Cannons do go down to small arms fire- however, they have a Whopping 60" range. They need to be placed high and back, whenever possible.

As for Extra armor exchange for wargear, I forgot that the Tac squad with Sicarius has no wargear. You should give that Sgt a CC weapon and a gun of some sort. Have you thought about the 'Special Skill' that one of your tactical squads get?

Overall, there is the problem of your opponent Reserving their force. However, your army is fairly mobile, and Bum-Rushing for the opposing table's board edge is possible with all the Rhinos, Razorback, and a Vindicator. That's why I suggested dropping one dread for a tank. By taking a Vindicator, and they reserve their force, you get the advantage of approaching with the vindicator unhindered by fire.

If you take the Vindicator- you'll want the Extra armor. The weapon is short range, and if you have the possibility to move into a better firing position, you always want to be able to do it.

Transports generally are to just protect the meat inside. Secondary, they harass the enemy objectives.

Land Raiders should always get Extra Armor- those tanks can always fire, and you can assault out of them. You might as well get to move at all time too!

[Image]

The special skill that I would offering to one of my tactical squads (likely the one with Meltagun/Lascannon) is Scouts. If I am going first, I would Scout move the squad forward to be closer to the Ironclad dreads. With that, I may use the Land Speeder Storm with the Scouts inside to Scout forward as well.

It's a big IF for me to go first, as we've already noted, but if I'm going second, I'm likely to keep the scouting Tac Squad and the Land Speeder/Scouts in reserve and outflank them.

While I'm committed to one of the dreads having the H.K Missiles (I'll be sticking strictly to WYSIWYG), the second one I put together, once I buy the kit, will definitely be equipped as you suggest.

As for Vindicators, I'll have to try it out. My experience with them hasn't been great as I find that they become nearly useless if the enemy destroys the weapon or immobilizes them. It might pull a few shots away from the dreads and so that may be worthwhile.

Plus, with the Vindicator moving forward with a rhino and two dreads, the Thunderfire Cannon - at long range - will become more difficult to cope with.

Now, my biggest concern is that I'm just not the biggest fan of dropping empty Drop Pods. I understand the tactical advantage that it offers, but I'm just not very fond of the tactic. I could possibly swap around the transports and work with my Tac Squads a bit to fit in some extra points and put a squad of them in a Drop Pod. Thoughts?

By the way, I really appreciate your input Tynskel. This has been excellent advice and I look forward to hearing any further ideas you may have. Thank you!

[Tynskel]

I only didn't suggest the Drop Pod for a squad because you seemed to have all your squads (except for missile scouts) mounted in a vehicle that could move every turn.

I agree, the empty drop pod is something I have never been a big fan of either.

hmmm... Swapping out a Rhino for a drop pod works. I would still get the Vindicator. I do agree, a vindicator without its gun is rather.... wimpy- that's why you want the extra armor. In case the gun gets blown off, you wanna still be able to Tank Shock n' Ram. Armor 13 isn't bad for Ramming. The main idea is to have them shoot your Vindicator until it is dead.

You might want to still keep the Thunderfire Cannon- although I was just trying to crunch numbers to keep 3 pods available. You could switch back to the 5 man scout squad. Another option is to flush the Razorback squad out to a full 10 Marines. Get that Special weapon in the squad.

Here's a list modified with 5 more marines. I kept one ironclad with the Hunter Missiles, because I like WYSIWYG.
Now, with two razorbacks and a Drop Pod for a Tac Squad there are a lot of options of where to put Sicarius- he's a flexible character, and this gives you flexibility when fighting different opponents.

I had thought of other ideas: like getting a land speeder for extra firepower, ect. I hope this is somewhat useful.

HQ:
Sicarius - 200

Elites: 415
Ironclad Dreadnought -220
w/ Heavy Flamer replacing Storm Bolter
Hunter Killer Missile x 2
Drop Pod
w/ Deathwind Launcher

Ironclad Dreadnought -195
w/ Heavy Flamer replacing Storm Bolter
Assault Launchers
Drop Pod

Troops: 895
Scouts x 5 - 90
w/ Power Weapon

Tactical Marines x 10 - 280
Powerfist, Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Hv Bolter
w/ Razorback
Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun

Tactical Marines x 10 - 295
w/ Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Lascannon
Razorback
w/ Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

Tactical Marines x 10 - 230
w/ Power Fist, Flamer, Multi-Melta
Drop Pod

Fast Attack:
Attack Bikes x 3 - 150
w/ Multi-meltas

Land Speeder Storm - 50

Hv Support:
Vindicator - 140
w/ Extra Armor, Siege Shield

[Tynskel]

Oh, I forgot to mention.

Vindicator with Siege Shield = awesome! (yes, with the explanation point).

There are things you will be willing to do with the Vindicator that you would usually think twice. Even though, statistically, there is a 1/36 chance of failing with the Dozer Blade.

Sometimes, a game of 40k can come down to a couple of balllllzy moves. A vindicator that moves through a piece of dangerous terrain to line up a shot that was risky could win the game. When you know that the vindicator doesn't care about the terrain (remember you only have a 45 degree firing arc), you'll put that gun where it is needed most.

My view maybe biased due to the first time I used the vindicator, 5 terminators died in one shot (not to mention, the vindicator ended up with MVP of that match- killed a land raider, and a full seraphim squad). I have had times where, EVERY SINGLE SHOT MISSED. However, every single game, the vindicator has been the focus of firepower- all it takes is one shot, and the vindicator has killed more points worth of models than the vindicator is worth. With the enemy wanting to end that machine of death, just the fire magnet potential is worth while- your army having a chance to advance because of the vindicator is good.

That's my two cents... Maybe I sound like a nut being so enthusiastic over one tank.

[Image]

I'm really starting to like the idea of a vindicator and think I'll definitely add one in. You've sold me on it.

As you said, it's a huge fire magnet and that makes me nervous. Frankly, AV 13 on just one side isn't terribly tough, but with the siege shield it should be able to maneuver into terrain for sweet cover saves at least. :)

Lastly, and this is going to be a really silly question... but Combi-weapons are truly worthwhile? Honestly, I've been playing 40k for about 4 years and have never really used them. I have a bunch of the commander sprues with combi-weapons on them so I have the pieces. I just wasn't sure on their usefulness.

[Tynskel]

I started playing space marines (Blood Angels) in 3rd edition (I began with Tyranids in 2nd Edition). At first, if I gave a gun to a Sgt., the gun would be a plasma pistol. I figured one shot wasn't worth it.

Then I bought a Terminator squad. The only gun upgrade I could get for the Sgt. was combis. I was worried about a nasty tank or something big possibly ruining my Terminators, and I wanted them to at least have a chance. So I gave the Sgt. a Combi. Then I noticed something-- This probably has to do with my tactics, vs others, but I noticed that I was only firing the combi-weapon once- the rest of the time was spent in Close Combat.

So I looked into my other squads. I have found that a combi-melta and meltagun is a nice combo- gives you that 'pinch' shot. Combi-Flamers are great when you dealing with a massive horde, the second flamer will ruin their day. Plus, if you are interested in charging- you get two flamers and many bolt pistol shots. Combi-plasmas are a crazy amount of firepower- this is the most situational. I prefer plasma pistols at that point.

This really comes down to army design and implementation-- could you use the 30-40 points in weapons to buy something else that would be more effective?