LotR SBG: A dying hobby?

[ChaosLord127]

Alright fellow Loungers,

Here's a question. What is your take on the decreasing interest that GW is having with the original Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game? Nothing new has been coming out for it as of late, unless it is directly connected to War of the Ring, so is it going to fade quitely into the shadows while WotR takes over? Or is it just because WotR is new enough that it is getting all the glory?

Lately, it seems that there are less and less articles in White Dwarf about SBG and more and more about WotR... It makes me worry. I am having a hard enough time finding fellow players of SBG, and my Isengard force is gathering dust. So what is your take? Is SBG dead, or just pushed aside for now?

[Cryl]

Alright fellow Loungers,

Here's a question. What is your take on the decreasing interest that GW is having with the original Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game? Nothing new has been coming out for it as of late, unless it is directly connected to War of the Ring, so is it going to fade quitely into the shadows while WotR takes over? Or is it just because WotR is new enough that it is getting all the glory?

Lately, it seems that there are less and less articles in White Dwarf about SBG and more and more about WotR... It makes me worry. I am having a hard enough time finding fellow players of SBG, and my Isengard force is gathering dust. So what is your take? Is SBG dead, or just pushed aside for now?

If you've got a WotR army you've got a SBG army as well so in pure business sales terms why push a game that effectively comes free with WotR. Push WotR with the added bonus that you can play SBG if you want to. That way you sell more minis and people buy the LotR sourcebooks etc afterwards (although most of the sourcebooks add very little over the core rules imo). GW have added extra rules to the SBG in WD recently, there was a section on the new Galadhrim and stormcallers etc a few issues ago but I take your point most coverage is of WotR.

I think GW need to approach the SBG kinda like they do with Apocalypse for 40k. It's something you can play to change the scale of the normal game. I think WotR will become the 'norma'l game (like 40k) and the SBG the occasional mission game.

Playing the SBG is what made me look seriously at WotR and although I still have most of the defenders of Gondor on sprues or in half painted states I am determined to get round to finishing them at some point... damn work and life getting in the way :)

[ChaosLord127]

It is true that a WotR army is a SBG army, but what I was referring to is that WotR is being treated as the main game. I am not sure if this was intentional, but when I saw WotR, I thought of it as merely a "Oh, apocalypse for LotR" expansion, but it looks more like a replacement to me now. Kind of sad, as I was happy with SBG as it was my break from the big battles I have with my gaming group, and I don't have enough money or time to make an army large enough for WotR (maybe 4 units? Donno, don't play WotR).

I am aware of the Galadhrim expansion, but it would be nice if they continued pushing SBG as well, instead of making it the back-up game. I guess I am just kind of dissappointed that SBG is not the primary game anymore, as I don't have a lot of interest in WotR.

[Azos]

I dont believe that SBG is dying as such, although WoTR is certainly bringing attention to the Lord of the Rings range.

I think WoTR could be seen as removing support from SBG at some levels, however it is also bringing a large amount of interest towards SBG, and i believe that if the established SBG players really make an effort, it will be possible to capitalise upon this, and strengthen the SBG.

I think the key to keeping interest in SBG is to be positive, and rather than lament the lack of players in a local group, rather to focus on the strengths of SBG, as a small scale game, highly tactical where every man lost could mean the difference between victory and death.

In a club setting or local area, i would see SBG pushed as a whole different game to WoTR, a chance to play something focused on a key struggle in a larger battle, for example rather than trying to recreate the whole of the seige of Helms Deep in one game, make it a campaign, a series of small skirmishes that the whole battle could be seen to hinge upon, and then offer the chance to play a WoTR finally at the end of the series. In this way, new play can be brought in, learn 2 games, and build a force they can use with both systems - start with battles involving 30 or less models, and as peoples collections grow, they can work towards a full sized WoTR battle force, let the game become an adventure and grow as its played, rather than being a one off super battle.

If you want SBG to survive as much as i do, i would encourage you to play to the strengths of the game, rather than trying to run it as a competition to WoTR. The use of scenarios, following the progress of a band of heroes, or of an orc mob as new members rise within the ranks, is where the strength of SBG is. Create a story, and submerge your whole playing group within the story. Let GW know that these are the games you want to play, and they will support them.

Ultimately though, nothing can kill a SBG faster than by saying, its dying, because that will scare people away, rather than bringing them into what could be one of the best games they will ever play.

[Dragon Knight Of Rhun]

I dont believe that SBG is dying as such, although WoTR is certainly bringing attention to the Lord of the Rings range.

I think WoTR could be seen as removing support from SBG at some levels, however it is also bringing a large amount of interest towards SBG, and i believe that if the established SBG players really make an effort, it will be possible to capitalise upon this, and strengthen the SBG.

I think the key to keeping interest in SBG is to be positive, and rather than lament the lack of players in a local group, rather to focus on the strengths of SBG, as a small scale game, highly tactical where every man lost could mean the difference between victory and death.

In a club setting or local area, i would see SBG pushed as a whole different game to WoTR, a chance to play something focused on a key struggle in a larger battle, for example rather than trying to recreate the whole of the seige of Helms Deep in one game, make it a campaign, a series of small skirmishes that the whole battle could be seen to hinge upon, and then offer the chance to play a WoTR finally at the end of the series. In this way, new play can be brought in, learn 2 games, and build a force they can use with both systems - start with battles involving 30 or less models, and as peoples collections grow, they can work towards a full sized WoTR battle force, let the game become an adventure and grow as its played, rather than being a one off super battle.

If you want SBG to survive as much as i do, i would encourage you to play to the strengths of the game, rather than trying to run it as a competition to WoTR. The use of scenarios, following the progress of a band of heroes, or of an orc mob as new members rise within the ranks, is where the strength of SBG is. Create a story, and submerge your whole playing group within the story. Let GW know that these are the games you want to play, and they will support them.

Ultimately though, nothing can kill a SBG faster than by saying, its dying, because that will scare people away, rather than bringing them into what could be one of the best games they will ever play.


QTF. I agree with everything Azos has said.

[iamaddj]

I think the SBG is dead. I am a little sorry to say that, but I think it is the brutal truth. After like 7 years of trying to make SBG work it never took off. In our local group we never had more then 3 people who played. GTs never drew more then 15 people. The SBG (at lest in the U.S. I have no real information about our cousins across the pond) is dead. WoTR on the other hand is just taking off. That group of over 200 players who that had less then 4 SBG player? Now we have more then 20 WoTR players and growing, thats bigger then a lot of 40K communities I know of. Remember how SBG GTs never got more then 15 player, we get that many or more in monthly tournaments.

GW knows SBG is dead, when SBG came out it was "The new big third line we are going to support" then SBG sucked and failed, that line of thought whent away. Then WoTR came out and now WoTR is "The new big third line we are going to support". Financially WoTR is the easy win over SBG, sell 20-30 models, or 200-300 models? Easy to see which one to pick.

But at the end of the day it comes down to one simple fact (that will piss people off) WoTR is 100 times better then SBG every was. And that sells.

[Dragon Knight Of Rhun]

But at the end of the day it comes down to one simple fact (that will piss people off) WoTR is 100 times better then SBG every was. And that sells.

I do have more fun playing WotR than i do SBG, ill admit that. I just dont think its dead, its still kicking because it was also a great system. I think its dead from GWs point of view, but not from hobbyists. Although I think if something isn't done to get SBG back on track soon it will die.

[iamaddj]

I do have more fun playing WotR than i do SBG, ill admit that. I just dont think its dead, its still kicking because it was also a great system. I think its dead from GWs point of view, but not from hobbyists. Although I think if something isn't done to get SBG back on track soon it will die.

To me that is like saying Rouge Trader or 5 edition Fantasy is still alive, that they are good systems and should still stick around. They suck, they are dead, and the SBG will soon follow. At the end of the day I think it is much better if the SBG dies. I would rather have all the LoTR players consolidated in to one game, one game with a good, large, undivided player base, rather then a divide between the SBG and WoTR. Not only is this better for the players and the player base it makes it twice as easy for GW to support and do things for. Over all this is much better for the game and the community as a whole.

[ChaosLord127]

I think that the best way to have gone would have been to make WotR an expansion rather than its own game. Alas, it is not the way it is. I shall cry like a baby for thee, SBG!

Seriously though, a lot of the greatest moments from the Lord of the Rings is the small and individual acts of heroism and small events. Take Amon Hen. Probably one of the coolest parts from FotR, but it was not a huge army, it was 9 vs 100. A lot of people who might come into the hobby to try and "change history" in the lord of the rings storyline will now just be limited to large battles, such as Helm's Deep, Minas Tirith, Peleanor, the Black Gate, isengard, and Osgiliath. I know that you could reenact the other scenes as well, but would controlling the fellowship as one group be all that accurate? This might not be true though, as I haven't played WotR, but still, sad to see it go. Oh well, I guess we who possess copies of the rulebook could still play SBG. I guess as long as the models and rules are still available, and if I could just get two or more people to start it up, it won't be so bad.

[Rhomdruil]

I have dreaded WotR since the first rumor of it for this very reason. Fortunately for my group SBG is still the prefered way to play. If we want to push large blocks of infantry around we play Fantasy (I know they are different systems). The joy of LotR for us is the ability to make those heroic stands and small skirmishes where every model can move on his own and make a difference...

[Angelic Despot]

I think the SBG is alive for two key reasons:

1. WotR simply cannot do (and does not try to do) all that anyone with an interest in LotR gaming would want to do. The LotR includes some really exciting battles, that gamers love to fight, but it includes lots of skirmishes too, which we also want to refight. WotR can't handle that scale, so SBG is safe as long as GW continue to produce the models.

2. WotR seems to have some problems. I haven't played it enough myself to be very specific, but it seems from what people write in forums that there are vague patches in the rules that dramatically alter the way the game plays depending on how you or your group decides to deal with them. Until GW FAQ the game these problems will help prevent the game taking off more. The lack of a FAQ suggests that GW is not serious about supporting this game, never mind the SBG, and that is offputting to potential players. There also seem to be balance issues with some units, but I suppose that's nothing to be surprised about.

It seems to me the best thing SBG players could do is take part in narrative campaigns (which seems to me to be the strength of the system anyway, rather than point-match style battles) that include SBG games as integral parts of the plot, along with occasional WotR games.

I'm not very keen on some of the more recent supplements for the SBG anyway - Harad and Mordor were by and large not as inspiring as I'd hoped they would be - so if WotR diverts GW from going down the 'army book/codex' route for the SBG then I think the SBG will actually benefit.

[RocketRollRebel]

The rules system is kinda neat (you move I move ect ect kinda thing) but I just don't feel like investing in a 3rd table top game and I dont like the idea of set scenarios based off of the story.

[HsojVvad]

Wait till the Hobbit comes out. Why bother doing anything new for SBG when the Hobbit will be coming out in what? 2 years from now? I am guessing we will have a new version of SBG and have it all tie in with the movie to hype it up more.

I have never read the Hobbit yet, but from what I hear it's more SBG than WotR so I guess there will be lots of scenarios we can do with the Hobbit.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[Cryl]

I'll dip my toe into these murky waters.

I'm wargamer and have been for 20 years. I first read The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in my late teens and am a huge fan. I read both at least once a year. I liked the films and have all the Special Edition box sets. In my 20 years of wargaming I have always loved GW and have played every system they've produced.

Now with all that in mind, Ive never brought a LoTR figure or ruleset and Ive never played the game. I don't know why, theres something I cant put my finger on, It just don't look right and it don't feel right. I hate the figures.

I don't want to get in the way of anybody else's enjoyment, if you like it, great. But if it ain't dead already, I hope it dies soon..........

Hmm... do you not like the SBG or WotR rulesets or both? If it's just the figures that put you off then you can always use fantasy models (and there are some lovely models) with the WotR ruleset to represent the various armies of Middle Earth, you just need some spare round bases and a few movement trays. Some of the proper LotR figures are horrible but some (mostly the recent ones) are pretty nice sculpts

And I know entirely what you mean about something not feeling right... I refused to play the SBG for a long time for exactly that reason, then I finally gave in to a friends nagging to try it and found that once I got over my "it's LotR it's not warhammer so it's rubbish" that it was a good fun skirmish game, WotR is my prefered fantasy game over WHFB which I just don't find fun to play (YMMV obviously). Once you get over the idea that the story is already told you can have some fun playing it.

All of that said, if it's not something you like then that's fine too. I'd just say try it before you totally dismiss it, especially if you're a fan of Middle Earth as you say!

[Bob la Frankie]

I dnt think it is.
I find tht it is simpiler to play than warahmmer 40k, the rules are well presented and it offers a large range of products(not as large as 40k or wfb).
I think it could do with some more armies or updating some of the armies already, add some ore heroes.
I also dislike the fact tht lotr is limited to wht Tolkien wrote.
But collecting it in my eyes is cheaper than 40k and wfb, and although i hvnt played it yet wotr seems to be fun.
Any way thts my opinion

[Razorx1970]

With the movies being long gone from the spotlight now, the game is totally dead.

Maybe once and if The Hobbit ever comes out, it may see new life. Lotr had it's biggest 15 mins of fame it will ever have about 6 years ago, and War of the Ring while a nice game, is 5 years too late.

Lotr SBG was a great game the way it was, I loved it, I had almost every piece ever made about 5 years ago, but even in its most popular timeframe about 2000-2004-ish, people still didn't play it that much locally, and it never took off like 40k and other games. It had to deal with the HeroClix/MageKnight/Mechwarrior generation at the time too, as all of the Clix games were in full steam back then too. Getting young and new players into a hobby game, one as expensive as Lotr was a loosing battle to all but the die-hard Tolken fanatics.

Now that the movies are out of the spotlight, there are far less new Tolken fanatics to be had too.

I hate to say it but I think Lotr is another dead GW game, like the Necromunda/Inquisitor types before it. They should keep the stuff around, but investing in continuing to make new models, and supporting it like they are at present is a loosing investment. More so in these messed up economic times.

[Razorx1970]

Wait till the Hobbit comes out. Why bother doing anything new for SBG when the Hobbit will be coming out in what? 2 years from now? I am guessing we will have a new version of SBG and have it all tie in with the movie to hype it up more.

I have never read the Hobbit yet, but from what I hear it's more SBG than WotR so I guess there will be lots of scenarios we can do with the Hobbit.

I don't know the details, but that's IF and only IF GW still has the rights to Lord of the Rings and Tolken stuff by the time Hobbit comes out.

[ChaosLord127]

Yeah, I think I'm done with it... I haven't found ANYONE in my area that plays it anymore since the Pacific View Mall store closed... I think I'll be selling my LotR stuff along with my Fantasy stuff, to focus solely on 40k... might use some of the money from selling my other gaming stuff to start up some Germans in FoW

[Gooball]

It is dying.
In Ireland most people have bought some Lotr minis but i only know one <1> person who actually brings them to the local shop
I think its a catch 22 really. They arent bringing enough new things out and the rules are convuluted (Those books for instance are extreamly complicated compared to the layout of the latest WFB and 40k 'dexs) So people arent interested in it.
If they did a second edition Rules im sure more people would start playing it (Most people i know have a few models, not enough for a game but something like a nazghul and a box of easterlings)
As it is it is just not fun compared to WFB and 40k

[cajun 40k]

It is dead and always was dead in my neck of the woods. The only reason my FLGS stocks it is because GW requires that official GW supported stores stock everything.

[Thorhak]

This is a message of HOPE! lol

My name is Keith, aka Thorhak. I learned of the world of miniature wargaming around 2000, I was 31. I had stumbled into my local hobby store looking for a new DnD Dungeon Model, happened in on Warhammer Paint Clinic and walked out of the store 5 hrs later w/ a warhammer beginner set. One year later, The Fellowship of the Ring movie was released. I went to the St. Louis Mills to watch it opening night and outside the theater, the local GW store was doing demos games for their new line: LOTR SBG. After that night, I sold my WH set and dived into LOTR SBG. Now I'm a complete junky!!

I probably have 6000+ LOTR minis, sadly only 500 or so painted! lmao. My first few years into the game I approached it as a collector/painter. Then in 2006, I attended the Baltimore Grand Tournament where the second ever LOTR SBG tournament was being held, (the first was in 2005 at the same venue). Roughly 40 players competed, I finished 20ish overall and was hooked on Tourneys from then on. I travel around the country to compete in LOTR SBG GTs 2-3 times each year. In 2010 alone, I finished 12 overall at the Gathering in the Desert in Phoenix, AZ, 2nd at Adepticon in Chi-town, and 4th at Bilbo's Birthday Bash, at the Chi-town Bunker.

Presently, I'm in Denver. When I arrived in Dec. 2007, the local GW store was preparing to close its doors for good. So I went out to the community and choose Collectormania in Parker, CO as my base. At that time, there was a hand full of "regulars" that had LOTR collections but no one was playing, and the only LOTR SBG product at the store was from the original FOTR release with the green packaging.

Fast forward two years...now there are no less than 20 players at Collectormania with 600 pt. Tournament-ready armies, and the store features a very complete LOTR SBG product line. In 2010, I organized and ran Mayhem in the Mountains, an Independent LOTR SBG Grand Tournament. I got 18 players to participate, 6 from outside CO. The feedback I received was awesome, and I petitioned GW to include MitM in the 2011-2012 Official GW North America Tournament Circuit. I was accepted, and now hope to play host to 30+ players this September.

So no, LOTR SBG is not dead...but all interested parties need to have a, "If you build it, [it will happen]" attitude. We are very fortunate...in the past few months, GW renewed its license with Warner Bros. to keep the LOTR SBG line alive. This license renewal included the rights to upcoming Hobbit movie series, the first of which will be released in Dec. 2012. So, yes there will be new models and hopefully sourcebooks.

I will agree, one thing LOTR SBG needs is a major overhaul of its Main Rulebook. One thing that I find that turns players off again and again is that the rules and profiles are scattered about in various different books. To assemble a Tournament legal army, you may need to consult as many as 3-4 different books...and Army Builder is unfortunately very unreliable with regards to LOTR SBG. A single, unifying Rulebook featuring ALL the rules, ALL the profiles and ALL FAQs would be paramount to LOTR SBG survival beyond the current 6 year renewal in my mind. That being said, hopefully my excitement for the game has spilled over, and we will rebuild the LOTR SBG community, one city at a time...and of course, (cheap plug coming...lol) I hope to see y'all at Mayhem in the Mountains (http://adeptusmilehigh.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=14) Sept 17th and 18th 2012!!

Cheers!!

Baruk Khazad! Khazad Ai-Menu!!!
Visit me at Adeptus Mile High (http://adeptusmilehigh.com)

[lattd]

The problem is they dropped it then gave us the worse rulebook i have ever read in WOTR. Why drop a game voted as your second favourite with a basic rule set that is perfect for tournament play in return for a rule system that required a second rule book to play and then still requires an errata.

LOTR is not dead in UK but the new release have turned it into a power gamers wet dream atleast the sourcebooks were balanced, and all the rules were balanced as there was a set profile (warrior of man) which was modified to give us everything else.

[Thorhak]

I purchased the WOTR rulebook, not to play the game but rather for the awe-inspiring pics of massive LOTR armies. I know a couple of guys who served as playtesters for WOTR before the ruleset was released and from their description it was already "broken". I have yet to play a game of WotR...

Hopefully with the new Hobbit stuff coming out we'll see new LOTR SBG sourcebooks, and an updated Main Rulebook. Keeping my fingers crossed!!!

[FTE-Charge!!!]

I see this game dying but I still endure to keep it strong in my area. The fact is that many players own the models; but do not bring them in to play or even know how to play.

SBG is an amazing system, it just has trouble keeping the interest of certain styles of gamer (powergamers?). In my area I have been successful in getting a small core of players to bring their models always to the shop so that pick me up games can be an option.

I have played WOTR once, and never again. I have a hard enough time getting my SBG models on the table with an opponent; Im not going to purchase 3x that amount on an army that still will not get play time despite GW's attention to WOTR.

I sincerely hope that SBG starts getting some attention again; esp with collected WD articles online showing the stats of all the new models. This game is great and I will continue to play it for many days.

[Jobu]

I purchased the WOTR rulebook, not to play the game but rather for the awe-inspiring pics of massive LOTR armies. I know a couple of guys who served as playtesters for WOTR before the ruleset was released and from their description it was already "broken". I have yet to play a game of WotR...


The problem with WoTR is the epic heroes. The rules for the move, shoot, charge and fight are good, straightforward and easy to use. Eve the magic in the game is not over the top powerful but adds subtly to the game. The combination of certain special rules from epic heroes is the problem. Those combinations are incredibly broken in some cases. Single epics by themselves are not a problem. Some are a little under priced ( I am looking at you nazgul )but otherwise not too bad.

[Cranium5]

At my GW store there are a dozen or so who play both.

i think i play up to 850 points for normal lord games.

havent gotten to playing war.

both seems fun but atm i still prefer the sbg one :p

[Alex Knight]

Good news: SBG is getting some love next month. New models, repackaging old box. And some new books. That's all I really know.
Bad news: Infantry boxes are going up in price... kinda'. It's going to be half the amount of figures for more than half the cost. Case in point, Moria Goblins - Current $33.00 for 24 here in the US. Repackaged release? 12 for $22.25.

[oneking]

Its alive and well here.

[ejazzyjeff]

New on the forum here, but I started out with LOTR SBG back in 2001. I always liked the game and played it at GW stores. I dropped out for a while and just started back up about a year ago and the GW store I visited had zero LOTR games was being played. In fact the clerk was kind of shock when I asked if anyone played LOTR, he couldn't even remember the last time it was played there. So unfortunately it's dead, there is zero articles in White Dwarf about it.

[The_Gonk]

I've never actually seen the game in the flesh, which is a real shame. It does look pretty epic!

[lobster-overlord]

this 5 year old thread has a better life than any middle earth based wargame from gw ever had

[Chris Copeland]

I still play LoTR. We have an active group in San Antonio!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

It looks like it is dying to me, which is sad.

I wouldnt get into it, but I think it has some of GW's best plastic kits (I much prefer LOTR dwarves, and I prefer that the kits have less options/bits). As an Epic player I def feel for LOTR players and hope it doesnt end up how Epic ended up.

[lobster-overlord]

I agree that the sculpts are fantastic. For the plastic kits, they are some of the best GW makes all around. The perry twins designs have translated to the CAD plastic form very well. However, the game is so cumbersome that it's ridiculous.

[Chris Copeland]

Cumbersome? I disagree. It is one of the fastest flowing skirmish games out there!

[lobster-overlord]

granted, but I hate any game with a rulebook thicker than 1/2 inch.... ( including 40k)

[Darren Richardson]

yeah it's a dead game these days, yes we have the hobbit, but except for the battle of five armies, there really isn't that much action in it, I expect GW will have one final push for the final film and then kill the game full stop....

- - - Updated - - -

for the record I got into it with the Battle Games In Middle Earth magazine partwork that came out with GW's partnership....

[Gotthammer]

This is possibly one of the most ironic threads on the entire board.

[rbrthpr]

LotR SBG is a great game, but like Mordheim, Necromunda and Space Hulk before it, it is not "core" GW Warhammer therefore it will never get full ongoing support. I also think that GW will pull support for it, just as soon as the terms of the licence for "Hobbit" related items allows. The only thing that might save it is if (god forbid) Jackson gets the opportunity to do something with the Silmarillion and early age worlds.

WotR was never a game worth playing as the characters (which everyone had to have as otherwise the massive number of figures needed was crazy expensive) were not balanced to the troop units. Players tended to maximise the character points and thus armies were nearly always fielded already "broken".
For Massed LotR battles rules like Impetus Fantasy variant or Mayhem will give much better games.

Shame really as gaming in the JRRT world should be amongst the most rewarding pastimes in our hobby, from RPG through skirmish up to Mass Battle.