Grav Cannon, Oh Myyyy!

[Katharon]

So I faced a rather intimidating list yesterday in a friendly game. I brought a fluffy but semi-competitive list of Abaddon with Chosen. I'll give you our two lists below:


Chaos Space Marine List

HQ
Abaddon (Warlord)
Kharn the Betrayer

Troops
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x Plasma Guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon + Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and dirge caster
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x Plasma guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x melta guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon + Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and dirge caster
Chosen Squad: 1 extra CSM, 5 x melta guns, MoN, 1 x power weapon + Rhino with havoc launcher, combi-bolter, and dirge caster

Elites
Chaos Terminators: chainfist, MoZ, + Land Raider with havoc launcher, dirge caster



Space Marine Army List

HQ
Librarian - Divination (Warlord)

Troops
Tactical Squad: Flamer + Drop Pod
Tactical Squad: Flamer + Drop Pod

Fast Attack
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad: Grav Cannons
Centurion Devastator Squad: Grav Cannons

Formation
Skyhammer Annihilation Force
Assault Squad: 10x Marines + flamer + melta bomb
Assault Squad: 10x Marines + flamer + melta bomb
Devastator Squad: 4 x Grav cannons & grav amp, 5 x extra marines
Devastator Squad: 4 x Grav cannons & grav amp, 5 x extra marines




---------------


After that I don't think I need to describe to you how the battle went. I was wiped except for a single Rhino (which was on its last hull point) on the end of turn two. I managed to have Abaddon get into assault and wiped out one Devastator Squad and Kharn wiped out one Assault squad, but other than that I inflicted no losses on the Space Marines.

Observations

(1) My opponent really played well and did an excellent job of making his list. He purposefully had a third drop pod to allow his Grav Centurions to come in Turn 1 alongside the Skyhammer Annihilation force.

(2) Considering their effects, I feel like Grav Cannons need to be adjusted somehow. I'm not sure how you could do it, but the fact that they're AP2 is just *ugh*. I spent the entire game trying to make a 5+ FnP or a 4++ Invul save against a stupidly large number of shots. Reducing Grav Cannons to something like 'Salvo 2/3' and Grav Guns to 'Salvo 1/2' might make them a bit more chill. Still strong, but definitely more chill.

(3) The way in which the Vehicle Damage Chart functions in regards to multiple Immobilized results needs change imho. He was firing 20 grav shots at my land raider and got six sixes, causing a total of 11 Hull Points to be removed, of which I managed to get a small cover save and blocked 2 hits from going through; obviously I still lost my Land Raider. I believe that in the wake of grav weaponry becoming so popular, that the Vehicle Damage Chart should no longer award an additional HP removed for each additional Immobilized result after the first. Instead, if they make the attack and it successfully get's through, then it's a single Hull Point removed, not two. And come on, when you're firing 20 shots, you kind of don't need those multipliers.

(4) Grav Cannons make Wraithknights weep and as such I an torn between wanting to change them and wanting to see more Eldar tears.

(5) I'm going to go with giant hordes of cultists from now on when playing my friend's Cheese Army.

[Charon]

I fail to see the "semi-competitive" side of your army.

Let the fact aside that he plays a very powerful codex and a quite competitive list which should be an auto win against even a very good Chaos army list.

So I don't really see your point.

[Katharon]

I fail to see the "semi-competitive" side of your army.

Let the fact aside that he plays a very powerful codex and a quite competitive list which should be an auto win against even a very good Chaos army list.

So I don't really see your point.

The point is that grav weaponry is overpowered.

And my army list there went to the semi-finals in a tournament with 20 players.

[Charon]

Grav weapons are fine rules wise. Their availability though is overinflated.

[Denzark]

Hmmm. multiple 5 weapon squads. Threat range on foot: 30" for 5 plasma shots per squad, 18" for 5 melta. On Rhino: 30" with 2 plasma shots, 36" with 2 snapshots. melta 18 and 24" respectively.

Your army relies on getting everything close to use its strength - massed low AP fire. His army also has mass low AP fire - that outranges yours.

I can see the problem here...

[Charon]

Hmmm. multiple 5 weapon squads.

multiple OVERCOSTED 5 weapon squads. One of these 6 model units (with transport) is around 270 points. Thats nearly the points of a Strenght D Bloodthirster without having the same impact. Or 40 points more than 3 MoN Obliterators.

[Fueldrop]

This is why you bubble wrap with a few units of cultists. Either you get 4+ cover from being behind a unit, or they're spamming grav against 6+ armour. Careful placement can help with the stupid good Skyhammer, but really there's a limit to what you can do against that kind of army with a low-tier force of your own.

Of course at that point the flamers become a problem...

[CoffeeGrunt]

You only get a 5+ for shooting through other units. Grav weapons are also useless against non Power Armour armies, but as you're playing CSM, that's what you've got. Tying up the Centurions in CC is an option that could keep them off your back, but this guy's running a pretty nasty list.

[Katharon]

Grav weapons are fine rules wise. Their availability though is overinflated.

I would also say that they're drastically under-costed.

- - - Updated - - -


You only get a 5+ for shooting through other units. Grav weapons are also useless against non Power Armour armies, but as you're playing CSM, that's what you've got. Tying up the Centurions in CC is an option that could keep them off your back, but this guy's running a pretty nasty list.

Like I said, I never even got close enough to much CC-wise. He Drop podded in and turned my mechanized force into a footslogging force on turn one and murdered a squad right off the bat. Turn two he murdered everything else, especially since Abaddon and Kharn both tore through their targets easily and so couldn't stay locked in combat to avoid enemy fire. It was just a grav-weapon firing squad execution.

[Fueldrop]

Daemonic allies might be good. After all, Grav weapons are literally useless against them and Daemonettes get rending to deal with the centurions.

[Charon]

I would also say that they're drastically under-costed.


Not really. Its pretty much hit or miss. Great if you play anything with good armor, depressing if you run into Dark Eldar or Daemons.
Let us face it. Codex: CSM is a **** codex and nowhere near the powerlvel of the SM codex. His list is pretty hard to deal with while your is... yeah... you say it is good.

If you really want to get a fighting chance, try Khorne daemonkin and stay away from overcosted characters and units when he plays a strong codex and uses cost efficient units.
40k is pretty much in favor of the post necron codices with CSM, Dark Eldar and Orks so below that powerlevel that it becomes pointless to even try.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, the problem I have is that the best counter to Grav spam is to not being playing a Power Armour Army, but...well...

Mass Cultists might work out, both to tie up targets as well as to absorb those Grav shots. Still, not sure what you could run in CSM to really hold your own against this kind of list. It's not undercosted/overpowered, it's just a nasty hard-counter to your setup. Again, Grav Cannons are 35pts each, don't work well with mobile forces, and if you're against Daemons or any other Horde army then it's time to weep.

A bit like saying Flamers are OP because they slaughter way more than their points cost in Guardsmen in the ideal situation. IMO, Devastators shouldn't get the Grav-Amp as well because the Cannon alone is plenty good enough.

[Path Walker]

Did your opponent know what list you take? Its definitely great against your army but yeah, if he came up against a massive horde of Ork Boyz or something, he'd be screwed. Lots of grav cannons are great against the right army, like yours, but not against light infantry. Did he tailor the list to beat yours?

[Katharon]

Not really. Its pretty much hit or miss. Great if you play anything with good armor, depressing if you run into Dark Eldar or Daemons.
Let us face it. Codex: CSM is a **** codex and nowhere near the powerlvel of the SM codex. His list is pretty hard to deal with while your is... yeah... you say it is good.

If you really want to get a fighting chance, try Khorne daemonkin and stay away from overcosted characters and units when he plays a strong codex and uses cost efficient units.
40k is pretty much in favor of the post necron codices with CSM, Dark Eldar and Orks so below that powerlevel that it becomes pointless to even try.

Except that I'm not a WAAC or Power-gaming type of player. So all that advice doesn't mean much to me. Again, stressing my original point, grav weaponry needs to be adjusted somehow. To quite the fine fellows at 1D4chan:


Seriously though, Grav-Cannons+Gravamps are CRIMINALLY under-priced. According to FAXIV, the value of a 5-shot AP2 gun that has a 97% chance to wound per hit (89% vs 3+, 75% vs 4+) is a monstrously huge 75 points per gun. On average, 3 Gravcannons (i.e. 3 Dev Centurions) will kill 6-7 Terminators, or Immobilize any non-Superheavy vehicle three times (resulting in removal of 5 HP), per turn of shooting.

So that, multiplied by a factor of 4. He took a great weapon and spammed it. I ate that grav-spam sandwich with extra cheese. And while I didn't rage quit or concede turn 1 (like I almost came to wanting to do), I played it out to the end and accepted it.

I'm not gaming Daemonkin because I'm waiting for the new CSM codex that should be out sometime next year.

- - - Updated - - -


Did your opponent know what list you take? Its definitely great against your army but yeah, if he came up against a massive horde of Ork Boyz or something, he'd be screwed. Lots of grav cannons are great against the right army, like yours, but not against light infantry. Did he tailor the list to beat yours?

No he didn't know my list. He knew which army, but not the list. And he freely acknowledged that it would be much more weak against horde armies. But how many people do you see running around with horde armies these days?

[Path Walker]

Except that I'm not a WAAC or Power-gaming type of player. So all that advice doesn't mean much to me. Again, stressing my original point, grav weaponry needs to be adjusted somehow. To quite the fine fellows at 1D4chan:



So that, multiplied by a factor of 4. He took a great weapon and spammed it. I ate that grav-spam sandwich with extra cheese. And while I didn't rage quit or concede turn 1 (like I almost came to wanting to do), I played it out to the end and accepted it.

I'm not gaming Daemonkin because I'm waiting for the new CSM codex that should be out sometime next year.

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No he didn't know my list. He knew which army, but not the list. And he freely acknowledged that it would be much more weak against horde armies. But how many people do you see running around with horde armies these days?

When I play my orks I use at least 120 Boyz if not more. Hordes will make a come back to counter grav spam if it becomes a problem.

[Charon]

Except that I'm not a WAAC or Power-gaming type of player. So all that advice doesn't mean much to me. Again, stressing my original point, grav weaponry needs to be adjusted somehow.

That is a little bit odd...
You wont get any other advice that "play a stronger setup". He went with a very strong setup and you basically lost to this setup. And your conclusion is not "I have to work on my setup or play people that accept my power level" but "grav weapons need a nerf!". That is a bit wonky.

Face the fact: GW doesn't give a rats *** about their design beeing reasonable. SM got their codex recently so there will be no toning down in the forseeable future. I also can't see a new or better CSM codex coming with Khorne Daemonkin using the same point costs and stats and a rumored Tzeentch Daemonkin on the way.

[Path Walker]

Spamming anything is a dickish move, if your opponent is knowingly using an army that isn't fun for you, then he's an arse, its not the game at fault, its the player.

[Charistoph]

I'm not gaming Daemonkin because I'm waiting for the new CSM codex that should be out sometime next year.

Be aware that we many not see CSM until the other 3 Daemonkin are released... And I honestly don't know if that would be a good thing or not.

[Arkhan Land]

ive played two games now against the skyhammer+grav combo and it is a pretty tough one to go against, in one game I was able to hold it off for a decen time till turn 4/5 when it was leaning towards my opponent but we were out of time thankfully I was able to only have to endure two turns of grav fire thanks to having more units than him and being able to get into combat, he put his gravs awafully close in but they are pretty limited range.

the second time I played against that formation was with my chaos/daemonkin force and and while they were able to tank a unit a turn I just had far too many of them for him to destroy them all, as people noted daemons (and spawns for your non daemon-based armies) presented a clear challenge but I also having been aware of the what was going to happen appropriately organzied myself to leave little effective pod-plopable zones that were safe, after all these guys are only t4 with a 3+.

Altogether though I feel yah that the hammer-grav setup is nasty, really only because of the added relentless USR issue. personally maybe a proper change would be some sort of rule affecting the effects of relentless/moving on salvo but this is such a nitpicking and detalied change that affects a lot more than grav so its not a worthwhile tree to bark up.


sometimes when you just order cheese they give you extra cheese

[Katharon]

Still think that since it's so readily available and that since it's so inexpensive for what it does, that changing the grav weaponry profile is a decent enough idea. Grav cannon: Salvo 2/3; Grav Gun: Salvo 1/2.

[Path Walker]

I wouldn't disagrees but the high number of shots is the only thing that stops Grav Guns being utterly useless and unusable against other things.

You just came up against a list designed to beat lists like yours, its a hard counter, if you get enough of them in a game then the meta becomes difficult to predict and people will hopefully move towards a more balanced army in the hope of avoiding unwinnable scenarios.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's like if I took 9 Wyverns. Against Green Tide, it's gunna slaughter. Against Nidzilla, it's gunna be laughable. Grav would actually be the other way around, but still.

[Charon]

Still think that since it's so readily available and that since it's so inexpensive for what it does, that changing the grav weaponry profile is a decent enough idea. Grav cannon: Salvo 2/3; Grav Gun: Salvo 1/2.

Even if we all agree (which we do not) I doen't change a thing.

[Fueldrop]

At some point I want to run a Harlequin list against a Grav-spam skyhammer list. You know, just to drink in their tears like they do to everyone else.

Seriously though, even against a guard blob the sheer number of shots from grav-spam is considerable and the rerolls are just overkill. Add in its excellent AV capacity and you have a very powerful weapon, very easily spammed.

[Reldane]

In my Opinion Grav weapons high light two inherent flaw with a lot of the newer codexs: that with each new release there must be a new gun, and that there should be guns that mitigate/get better with the more points your opponent spends. Grav Weapons are examples of both of these. If a player pays points for models to get a better armour save, not only are those points wasted (such as Mark of Nurgle and bikes into poison) but they actually benefit the player with grav weapons.

having said that I don't feel that the Grav Guns are particularly strong even on something relentless, I think the problems only come in for the Grav Cannon and amp combination, and lets be honest if the Grav cannons where not so good we would not see Grav Centurians in ever single space marine army (though I do like the devistator centurians, they are everything that "shooty" terminators have not been... ever)

[CoffeeGrunt]

In my Opinion Grav weapons high light two inherent flaw with a lot of the newer codexs: that with each new release there must be a new gun, and that there should be guns that mitigate/get better with the more points your opponent spends. Grav Weapons are examples of both of these. If a player pays points for models to get a better armour save, not only are those points wasted (such as Mark of Nurgle and bikes into poison) but they actually benefit the player with grav weapons.

You could make the same claim for Poison, Fleshbane or Sniper with regards to Toughness, though. The Armour Save thing is a fair point, though.


Seriously though, even against a guard blob the sheer number of shots from grav-spam is considerable and the rerolls are just overkill. Add in its excellent AV capacity and you have a very powerful weapon, very easily spammed.

It costs 7x what a Guardman does, or 12x a Conscript. There's much better and scarier things to those guys than a handful of Grav Cannons. :P

[Reldane]

You could make the same claim for Poison, Fleshbane or Sniper with regards to Toughness, though. The Armour Save thing is a fair point, though.

mostly I do, its not that I don't feel there should be counters to good armour saves, or high toughness but at a design level I find it irritating when one side has payed for something better and it makes literally no difference. on a character these things are probably fine, but when a whole unit or army is ignoring the others toughness, save or whatever I think there is a problem. Fortunately the biggest offender for that dark eldar suffer from other problems.



It costs 7x what a Guardman does, or 12x a Conscript. There's much better and scarier things to those guys than a handful of Grav Cannons. :P

I was myself going to make a similar comment, but the maths is actually fairly in favour of grav cannons. they still inflict a reasonable number of wounds, sure there are better weapons for the points spent on grav, but though seer weight of fire a grav cannon and amp (1.85 wounds) will out perform a heavy bolter (1.67 wounds) so it isn't as wasted as you might think.

[Path Walker]

mostly I do, its not that I don't feel there should be counters to good armour saves, or high toughness but at a design level I find it irritating when one side has payed for something better and it makes literally no difference. on a character these things are probably fine, but when a whole unit or army is ignoring the others toughness, save or whatever I think there is a problem. Fortunately the biggest offender for that dark eldar suffer from other problems.




I was myself going to make a similar comment, but the maths is actually fairly in favour of grav cannons. they still inflict a reasonable number of wounds, sure there are better weapons for the points spent on grav, but though seer weight of fire a grav cannon and amp (1.85 wounds) will out perform a heavy bolter (1.67 wounds) so it isn't as wasted as you might think.

The Heavy Bolter is a lot less points than a Grav Cannon and Amp, so yes, it can still hurt the conscripts, you're paying those extra points for 0.18 wounds. For the price of 3 Grav Cannon Devestators, you get 6 with Heavy Bolters (and change, I couldn't be bothered to find the LCD), so for the points, you're doing (using youre calculations, not checked them) 5.55 Wounds with the Gravs and 10.02 Wounds with the Heavy Bolters.

[Fueldrop]

mostly I do, its not that I don't feel there should be counters to good armour saves, or high toughness but at a design level I find it irritating when one side has payed for something better and it makes literally no difference. on a character these things are probably fine, but when a whole unit or army is ignoring the others toughness, save or whatever I think there is a problem. Fortunately the biggest offender for that dark eldar suffer from other problems.



The real problem isn't that Grav Cannons are good against high toughness foes, or good against heavily armoured foes... it's that they're good against both at the same time, while putting out tons of shots and rerolling failed wounds AND being good against vehicles. Poisoned weapons generally have lousy AP, mediocre rates of fire, and are useless against vehicles and GMCs. Fleshbane likewise generally wounds really well, but isn't going through armour very well and is rarely on a weapon that's good against vehicles (the one exception, wychblades, was nerfed hard vs vehicles in 6th to the point that they're almost worthless against them).

Being good at everything, plus access to drop pods that let them get to where they need to be without any chance of mishap or being shot down, is really why Grav weapons are a problem. Even their price isn't an issue since SM can get 500+ points of free transports in the Gladius detachment which frees up points for expensive toys.

[Reldane]

most certainly, Grav weapons are very pricey. my point wasn't that it was the most efficient way to kill guardsmen, just that the grav cannon is all-round a very strong weapon, it does anti heavy infantry exceptionally well, anti tank well and is still passable at anti light infantry. its only real weakness is in the salvo rule and how utterly pants salvo is. if you can ignore Salvo (ie relentless) the grav cannon becomes the most appealing weapon upgrade.

[Path Walker]

The real problem isn't that Grav Cannons are good against high toughness foes, or good against heavily armoured foes... it's that they're good against both at the same time, while putting out tons of shots and rerolling failed wounds AND being good against vehicles. Poisoned weapons generally have lousy AP, mediocre rates of fire, and are useless against vehicles and GMCs. Fleshbane likewise generally wounds really well, but isn't going through armour very well and is rarely on a weapon that's good against vehicles (the one exception, wychblades, was nerfed hard vs vehicles in 6th to the point that they're almost worthless against them).

Being good at everything, plus access to drop pods that let them get to where they need to be without any chance of mishap or being shot down, is really why Grav weapons are a problem. Even their price isn't an issue since SM can get 500+ points of free transports in the Gladius detachment which frees up points for expensive toys.

for the Space Marines to get free transports, you have to pack in a lot of units, you need a full company, so two Battle Demi Companies, with everything else bare bones, you're talking 1250 points just to get the 2 Devestator squads with Gravs in drop pods, if you want anything else that's not 5 man tactical squads or attack bikes the points will add up very quickly. Hell, play 1200 point games and its not even possible.

[Reldane]

Poisoned weapons generally have lousy AP, mediocre rates of fire, and are useless against vehicles and GMCs. Fleshbane likewise generally wounds really well, but isn't going through armour very well and is rarely on a weapon that's good against vehicles (the one exception, wychblades, was nerfed hard vs vehicles in 6th to the point that they're almost worthless against them).

The existence of poison and fleshbane isn't what I am opposed to, merely making either of them army wide themes. I know dark eldar aren't in an ideal place, however with their basic weaponry all being poisoned 4+ a Nurgle Chaos Biker is slightly less effective than a unmarked Raptor despite a 9pt per model increase in cost. In my mind at least an upgrade should well upgrade your model, not leave them the same or worse.

[Charon]

You could make the same claim for Poison, Fleshbane or Sniper with regards to Toughness, though. The Armour Save thing is a fair point, though.




Armor save, no drawback against GMC, number of shots, built in rerolls, availability



It costs 7x what a Guardman does, or 12x a Conscript. There's much better and scarier things to those guys than a handful of Grav Cannons. :P

And why you do not point the gun on a that Pask Leamn Russ Punisher then? I have seen no army yet (that includes hordes) that do run without any value targets for gravguns. Every MC in a Nid army, Vehicles/artillery in an orc horde, Tanks in a Guard army, Vehicles and MC in a Dark Eldar army.
Basically the Gravcannon centurions will take out a Leman Russ behind cover in a single volley. There are ALWAYS targets.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The existence of poison and fleshbane isn't what I am opposed to, merely making either of them army wide themes. I know dark eldar aren't in an ideal place, however with their basic weaponry all being poisoned 4+ a Nurgle Chaos Biker is slightly less effective than a unmarked Raptor despite a 9pt per model increase in cost. In my mind at least an upgrade should well upgrade your model, not leave them the same or worse.

It does upgrade your model, against any other kind of weapon it gives you a slight edge. Dark Lances don't inflict Instant Death on a T5 target, Disintegrators find it tougher to Wound them, Incubi have a hard time landing Wounds, etc, etc.

Dark Eldar's ubiquitous Poison on their standard weapons makes them good against high-Toughness targets, but mediocre against low-Toughness targets, and utterly useless against vehicles.

[Fueldrop]

The existence of poison and fleshbane isn't what I am opposed to, merely making either of them army wide themes. I know dark eldar aren't in an ideal place, however with their basic weaponry all being poisoned 4+ a Nurgle Chaos Biker is slightly less effective than a unmarked Raptor despite a 9pt per model increase in cost. In my mind at least an upgrade should well upgrade your model, not leave them the same or worse.

I agree. As a Dark Eldar player myself I'm far from thrilled at the 1-note nature of the army. Ranged? You can have poison for toughness or lance for vehicle. Melee? You can have S 3, Poison, or slow moving monster.

Poison is a nice rule. It's not enough to hold up an army on its own.

RE: Upgrades and survival.

I agree that if you're paying points for something, it should measurably improve the unit in some way. In the instance of Nurgle Bikers, the increase is really a poor choice against DE since jumping from T5 to T6 has no effect on poison and no effect on S3 melee. However, it does offer protection from the only dedicated heavy-infantry killer in the army: the Disintegrator Cannon. The upgrade ends up protection you from the rapid fire S 5 AP 2 weapon that would otherwise cut through you and/or force jink.

On the flip side of that, not every upgrade should be good against every army. Using DE again as an example, Soulfright weaponry is very good against anything with mediocre leadership and without fearless or ATSKNF. Awesome verses Tau, worthless vs Space Marines. Haywire weapons: Fantastic vs enemy armour, worthless vs 'nids and daemons. Sometimes upgrades just aren't right for that battle.

[Reldane]

It does upgrade your model, against any other kind of weapon it gives you a slight edge. Dark Lances don't inflict Instant Death on a T5 target, Disintegrators find it tougher to Wound them, Incubi have a hard time landing Wounds, etc, etc.

except none of those are the basic gun of the main infantry of the army, nor does instant death come up in this case. a Dark eldar army can easily field no disintegratoes, or Incubi but can not field an army with no poison. don't get me wrong I am not trying to suggest that splinter weapons are in anyway broken, just that I don't approve of the way they where designed.


Dark Eldar's ubiquitous Poison on their standard weapons makes them good against high-Toughness targets, but mediocre against low-Toughness targets, and utterly useless against vehicles.

against most armies (why are there so many marine armies?) splinter weapons are directly comparable to bolters the closest to base line that 40k has for ranged weapons. yes into a several armies they do become weaker than bolters but in a most of cases (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Tau) those armies also field higher toughness units alongside the T3 ones.

yes they are useless into vehicles, not really much different from bolters. even into an armour 10 all round vehicle they are slightly better than splinter weapons into a wraithknight which as you have already highlighted (I believe) is not very. and that's not even taking lasguns/stubguns into account.

[Charon]

yes they are useless into vehicles, not really much different from bolters. even into an armour 10 all round vehicle they are slightly better than splinter weapons into a wraithknight which as you have already highlighted (I believe) is not very. and that's not even taking lasguns/stubguns into account.

Against most armies the DE poison is a bolter equivalent with the option of getting worse against the other armies (T3). T5+ is quite rare and even then there is some kind of save most of the time. Bolters against an AV10 vehicle are WAY more efficient that splinter weapons against a wraithknight as Vehicles do lack an armor save and do not roll FnP.
Also as a fun fact. Space Marines have better poison weapons than DE.

[Fueldrop]

Against most armies the DE poison is a bolter equivalent with the option of getting worse against the other armies (T3). T5+ is quite rare and even then there is some kind of save most of the time. Bolters against an AV10 vehicle are WAY more efficient that splinter weapons against a wraithknight as Vehicles do lack an armor save and do not roll FnP.
Also as a fun fact. Space Marines have better poison weapons than DE.
Fun fact about that fun fact: You can have your vets with underbarrel grav on their 2+ poison. Just in case.

[CoffeeGrunt]

against most armies (why are there so many marine armies?) splinter weapons are directly comparable to bolters the closest to base line that 40k has for ranged weapons. yes into a several armies they do become weaker than bolters but in a most of cases (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Tau) those armies also field higher toughness units alongside the T3 ones.

yes they are useless into vehicles, not really much different from bolters. even into an armour 10 all round vehicle they are slightly better than splinter weapons into a wraithknight which as you have already highlighted (I believe) is not very. and that's not even taking lasguns/stubguns into account.

Especially consider Gargantuans are only Wounded on 6s by Poison or Sniper. Grav really gets the edge there, as they're effectively Lascannon strength against WKs.

Just saying that Poison on basic Infantry weapons isn't that bad considering DE Kabalites cost the same as Fire Warriors or Skitarii Vanguard, IIRC. (9pts.) I'd say Bladestorm on basic weapons negates paying for good armour more, but I imagine we're all very much aware that Eldar get too many nice toys. :P

[Reldane]

T5+ is quite rare: except for Space Marine Bikes, Centurions, Eldar Wraithguard, Cult Mechanicus Kataphrons, Necron Imortals

so I would disagree, in the current meta I do not feel that T5+ is all that rare.

a poison weapon has a 2 in 81 chance to cause a wound on a wraithknight. a str 4 weapon has a 1/9 chance to inflict a hull point, before fairly easily available cover saves are taken (5+ 2 in 27, 4+ 1 in 18 and 3+ 1 in 27)

so yes str 4 weapons do better into av 10 vehicles than poisoned weapons do into wraithknights. however neither work particularly well. now I am sure that many Dark eldar players feel like bolters tear though their transports but personal experience is always subject to bias.

and yes sternguard poison irks me just as much


Just saying that Poison on basic Infantry weapons isn't that bad considering DE Kabalites cost the same as Fire Warriors or Skitarii Vanguard, IIRC.

I am not saying that Dark eldar are in any way broken just that I disagree with the design of splinter weapons for the same reason as I do grav weapons

[Fueldrop]

Having a weapon go through 1 defense reliably is fine. Having something that goes through two defenses (eg toughness and armour) should be either low rate of fire (eg lascannon) or some other similar restrictions.

I play Eldar (I switched to DE for a while when the CE codex was the most powerful thing out there, because I'd rather play on hard mode than on easy mode. ATM I pick my codex based on what my opponent brings) and I dislike having mobile ranged D in the army. Particularly D flamers. Why?

Well, because they ignore toughness, armour, and in the case of the flamers cover. There's also a shot at flat ignoring all saves and the ability to cut through wounds and hull points like they're nothing. For the most part strength D does not belong in small games, at least in my opinion, and bringing it is a cheap move. I'll make an exception for D cannons, since they have both fairly short range and are fairly immobile. They're powerful, but an opponent can reasonably avoid them and play around them.

I don't play Wraith. I don't own a wraithknight, and never will because 1) it's broken cheap and unfair to use and 2) it looks stupid.

Do I have a point with this? Yes I do.
Just because you CAN have a cheesy list, doesn't mean you should. Outside of competitive play, you're responsible for making sure your opponent has fun as well so leave the spam lists at home. Take a unit of Centurions with grav, sure. One, maybe two if your opponent likes a tough fight. Don't bring an "I win button" unit, it's not fun for your buddy and it makes your victory hollow.

[Demonus]

I think what makes the Gravs so pants to play against is the reroll to wound, and reroll to hit if you use the one doctrine.

Also I saw someone post 11 hp lost above with a volley of shots. Am I wrong, or do you not apply all results from a weapon type at the same time? So the vehicle wouldn't technically be immobilized yet right?

[Charistoph]

Also I saw someone post 11 hp lost above with a volley of shots. Am I wrong, or do you not apply all results from a weapon type at the same time? So the vehicle wouldn't technically be immobilized yet right?

All shots from the same weapon from the same unit are fired at the same time. If the target is a Vehicle, all successful To-Hit Rolls immediately roll for Armour Penetration, and all Penetrating Hits get a roll on the Damage Results section. Nothing up to this point separates out the Hits as being separate events. It is only when dealing with Squadrons that each Hit is separated out before Armour Penetration is Rolled.

So, from that perspective, there is no "already" for an Immobilized Result in the same Attack.

[Charon]

You roll the damage results after each other as it could explode for example before beeing stripped of all hull points.
Different weapon destroyed results also do not effect the same weapon over and over again. The vehicle is immobilized as soon as you roll the "immobilized" result.

[Charistoph]

You roll the damage results after each other as it could explode for example before beeing stripped of all hull points.
Different weapon destroyed results also do not effect the same weapon over and over again. The vehicle is immobilized as soon as you roll the "immobilized" result.

And the line that defines this.... where, again?

Outside of Squadrons, nothing tells you to separate the Vehicle Damage Results one after the other, and can indeed be Fast Rolled. Yes, the Explosion may happen in the same group, but then the Explodes! result also states what happens if you roll multiple. How can you roll multiple if you stop at the first? Immobilized only cares if it is "already Immobilized", or in other words, before the Damage Results were rolled.

[Charon]

In the vehicle damage rules?


Penetrating Hits
If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only loses 1 Hull Point, but also suffers additional damage.
After deducting any Hull Points, roll a D6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicle’s armour and look up the result using the Vehicle Damage table, applying any appropriate modifiers, such as those granted for high AP weapons. All modifiers on the Vehicle Damage table are cumulative. If you inflict a penetrating hit, you must roll on the Vehicle Damage table even if the vehicle loses sufficient Hull Points to be Wrecked, as there is still a chance that it might Explode!

You roll up 2 penetrations and remove 2 hull points as in "After deducting any Hull Points"
Then you take 2 dice and roll on the damage chart as in "roll a D6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicle’s armour and look up the result using the Vehicle Damage table"
After modifiers you look up the results. If roll up immobilised 2 times the vehicle loses an additional hullpoint as one of the results already immobilised it.

You can roll up multiple explosions as you go and inflict the hullpoints first and the damage after them for each hullpoint inflicted. Even if you penetrate a Venom 5 times you roll up 5 times on the damage table as it could still explode and you easily can have multiple explosions in this 5 rolls. rules just tell you to apply just one of them. No such exceptions exist for dealing immobilized results.
There is no way somebody is going to argue that you socored 2 immobilized results but I apply only one and ignore the second because they were on the same unit. Or are you gonna argue that a 2 weapon destroyed results also destroy the same weapon 2 times instead of 2 different weapons?

Also Graviton:


When resolving a hit against a vehicle, roll a D6 for each hit instead of rolling for armour penetration as normal. On a 1-5 nothing happens, but on a 6, the target suffers an Immobilised result and loses a Hull Point. These weapons have no effect on buildings.

does not follow the normal damage rules.

[Charistoph]

You roll up 2 penetrations and remove 2 hull points as in "After deducting any Hull Points"
Then you take 2 dice and roll on the damage chart as in "roll a D6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicle’s armour and look up the result using the Vehicle Damage table"
After modifiers you look up the results. If roll up immobilised 2 times the vehicle loses an additional hullpoint as one of the results already immobilised it.

That is never stated as such. Up to this point, this is all considered the same event by the game. If it is the same event, than there is nothing "already" in place for one of the Results. Just because you choose to roll the results one at a time, doesn't mean the GAME considers them rolled one at a time. You can roll all the Damage Results together with nothing in the game to stop you, which means that the Results are still occurring at the same time, which means both "Immobilized" Results happen at the same time, so one cannot happen before the other.

Remember, you "roll a D6 for each Penetrating Hit" not, "roll a D6 one at a time for each Penetrating Hit".

When you roll To-Hit, you can roll them one at a time, or all together. The game considers all the Shots from that weapon in the unit to be fired at the same time. When you are successful, you immediately perform an Armour Penetration Roll and determine Hits. This is where Gravitation stops. But this still would apply if you were firing Multimeltas or Lascannons and went on to the Damage Results, since nothing there tells you to apply the Results one at a time or in any sequence.


You can roll up multiple explosions as you go and inflict the hullpoints first and the damage after them for each hullpoint inflicted. Even if you penetrate a Venom 5 times you roll up 5 times on the damage table as it could still explode and you easily can have multiple explosions in this 5 rolls. rules just tell you to apply just one of them. No such exceptions exist for dealing immobilized results.

Except its own condition is "already", as in "before the time in question, beforehand; by now". The sequence you physically roll the Results has zero bearing as to which happens first. You need to demonstrate where it says to do that in order to apply it.


There is no way somebody is going to argue that you socored 2 immobilized results but I apply only one and ignore the second because they were on the same unit. Or are you gonna argue that a 2 weapon destroyed results also destroy the same weapon 2 times instead of 2 different weapons?

I have argued this, many times.

Weapon Destroyed is a different pile of chips, though, and makes no conditions of an "already" to apply.


Also Graviton:
does not follow the normal damage rules.

No, it just applies the Result upon a modified Hit, so its application is even before you Roll Damage Results, which further demonstrations my point that it cannot be done "already" if processed in the same moment. (Squadrons excepted).

Note, however, a Grav Pistol, Grav Gun, and Grav Cannon are all 3 separate Weapons, and will all different timings and events of Shooting, so will not interact with each other in this manner and CAN Immobilize before the others.