1500pt Eldar for tournament at whw on April 4th

[bobdole4eva]

Hey guys, I've just got myself a ticket to the tournament at warhammer world in a few weeks time and I thought I'd take back out my Eldar, see what you think.

Farseer - Fortune, Jetbike, Doom, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding [175]
Autarch - Fusion gun, Laser Lance, Mandiblasters, Jetbike [140]
7 Warlocks - Jetbikes, 2 Embolden, 4 Destructor, Enhance [380]

10 Guardians - Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden [125]

10 Guardians - Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden [125]

5 Dire Avengers [60]

Falcon - Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo-fields [185]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML [155]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML [155]

TOTAL: [1500]

Its a slight variation on my usual setup, I normally take out the Autarch, the Doom and Warding on the Farseer and a Destructor for Eldrad, but I think this is more effective Btw this has a perfect win record, which no other army of mine ever has, if that helps!

[eagleboy7259]

I have always heard that Autarches were considered a pretty poor use of an HQ slot, unless you're playing an alpha strike list. I don't know what impact that 6? attacks that he adds to combats has had for you, but in my experience playing against Eldar Jetlock Councils tend to handle combats pretty decisively, like they do in all aspects of the game.

The other thing that I would reconsider would be your troops selection. With fairly static troops and units, I can see an opponent being able to hold you off from objectives pretty easily minus the council which can contest. At 1500 pts, I don't believe that you can successfully, run only one tank, even with holo-fields.

What I would do with this list would be to drop the Autarch out of the Council seeing as right now that Council takes up 695pts, close to half of our available points. It might be one awesome unit, but it is only one unit, and a good opponent will find ways around it, hoods, throw away units, etc. I would try to add a Wave Serpent, Fire Dragons, or drop the Wraithlords and go full Mechdar. Something which will allow you to rely on the rest of your army more, which will either make your troops more survivable or able to move quicker.

[bobdole4eva]

I have always heard that Autarches were considered a pretty poor use of an HQ slot, unless you're playing an alpha strike list. I don't know what impact that 6? attacks that he adds to combats has had for you, but in my experience playing against Eldar Jetlock Councils tend to handle combats pretty decisively, like they do in all aspects of the game.

The advantage the Autarch gives is that he has a power weapon, which no one else in the council has, so he's not bothered by armour. Also, his fusion gun means the unit can challenge tanks even if they have moved fast that turn. My council in every game I've played, while good, have been held up in combat by some fairly mediocre units, the Autarch will help them chew through the enemy much quicker.


The other thing that I would reconsider would be your troops selection. With fairly static troops and units, I can see an opponent being able to hold you off from objectives pretty easily minus the council which can contest. At 1500 pts, I don't believe that you can successfully, run only one tank, even with holo-fields.

It's true that having only 1 tank is a difficulty, but I've found the Wraithlords absorb a lot of anti tank fire, and take longer to go down than the likes of Fire Prisms, especially when you can find them cover.
My troops are very static, but on the plus side, theyre cheap. I used to use Dire Avengers in big units in Serpents, and I found they die just as quickly, if not quicker, even though they were more expensive. The Guardians have the advantage of being ok at a few things. I have considered changing one unit of Guardians for some Jetbikes, but sadly don't have the money at the moment.


What I would do with this list would be to drop the Autarch out of the Council seeing as right now that Council takes up 695pts, close to half of our available points. It might be one awesome unit, but it is only one unit, and a good opponent will find ways around it, hoods, throw away units, etc. I would try to add a Wave Serpent, Fire Dragons, or drop the Wraithlords and go full Mechdar. Something which will allow you to rely on the rest of your army more, which will either make your troops more survivable or able to move quicker.

Full Mech with a Council, or without? The problem with a council in full mech is that they take all the small arms fire from the enemy army, and thus they die much more quickly. Without a Council, you basically have my old list which I abandoned because it wasn't as effective as this one. Fire Dragons are an amzing unit, but they don't fit in with my current strategy (believe me, I've tried) and to fit them I'd have to drastically rearrange, and I would in effect be taking a step backwards if I went back to full Mech.

P.S. Please don't think I'm being a dick and disregarding what you say, I'm just trying to explain why some of what you said is stuff I've seen and tried before and sort of 'moved past' in a sense.

[eagleboy7259]

Haha don't worry about it. I am right with you, I believe that listing is an evolution of gameplay which differs on a level of person experience with the game. While having more troops available to alleviate some small arms fire might work in theory, I don't complete agree. 1) The Jetlock Council is the Hammer Unit and will be a higher target priority to your opponent. 2) Small arms fire and anti-infantry weapons tend to have a limited range, and shoot what it more currently available. If there is something like heavy bolters running around, bet your buck they will be aiming to kill your Council if they have LOS. 3) The speed of these two units - the Council will likely be in your opponents face on turn two, whereas the Guardian Defenders will be walking or hiding in cover. The units targeting them will be different areas typically.

Councils survive best in Mechdar is they can hide behind tanks or be supported with bikes or infantry which deploys on turn 2. As for the Autarch killing tanks, I don't believe that to be a problem for Councils, simply because if you are going to shoot a tank, you are either going to be charging it that turn or doing nothing in the assault phase. While the fusion gun extends your range a bit, you have to get within 6" to have it effectively melta S6+2D6, S6 on its own isn't reliable, and if you are that close you might as well charge for 20-ish S9 attacks with re-rolls to make sure its hella dead. Singing Spears on your Council might be something to consider, they don't have the punch that fusion guns do, but at 18" range and only being a few points over the Witch Blade anyway, your threat bubble increases allowing you to take out a tank when you aren't in range to do anything else. You don't have to get rid of the Autarch, I can see the High I power weapon hits helping a bit, just cut some fat out of that unit.

On paper I always consider the Guardian Defender to be a pretty poor choice. Deceased stat line over the Avenger to save 2pts, none of the flexibility that the assault weapons of the Storm Guardians, Rangers are better at being a static rock, and Jetbikes is just apples and oranges. Your troops are just babysitting some Scatter Lasers, they are too short ranged / too fragile to be running around. I would advocate for a single Wave Serpent, then, fitted as you see fit, and it will do anti-troop, or anti-tank much better, filled with either Dire Avengers or Storm Guardians. As for filling out the rest of the Troops, bear with me as this might sound incredibly stupid at first glance - use Rangers or Pathfinders. Static, able to deploy in cover, and able to gain 3+ or 2+ cover saves with ease. 5 come in at 90pts? While snipers have a very poor rap sheet, you are using your Guardians to fire a BS 3 Scatter Laser - comparatively its still slightly better at killing but its a survival competition.

You don't even have to do all that, the way I see it, this list is golden and perfect for tournament play with just another tank. You could drop the falcon and fit double serpents, or do any number of things with your points. While Wraithlords might take some anti-tank fire you have to keep some things in mind, that they aren't tanks, which means they are vulnerable against a different range of enemies than tanks are, high toughness or not, and that they are not your scoring unit, which in a system where 2/3 of the missions are determined by capturing objectives, having that 1 unit get knocked out early can really screw you. I think of it in this way, both you and your opponent take turns setting objectives, you can take one and sit on it, and so can he, but realistically you have to move your army to win as the rest of them will be throughout the board. Your ability to move to capture and contest them determines the outcome 90% of the time, and while this list at this point might do well with VP's and Tertiary objectives in tournament play I believe it will struggle without another mobile Troops selection.

[bobdole4eva]

Ok having taken on boad what you've said, I've come up with 2 lists, one is a drastic overhaul, the other is a more conservative rewrite. Let me know what you think

LIST 1 - Overhaul

Farseer - Fortune, Jetbike, Doom, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing [185]
7 Warlocks - Jetbikes, 2 Embolden, 4 Destructor, Enhance [380]

5 Fire Dragons [80]
Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon [110]

5 Rangers [95]

5 Dire Avengers [60]
Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, Shuiken Cannon [110]

5 Dire Avengers [60]
Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, Shuiken Cannon [110]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML [155]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML [155]

TOTAL: [1500]

As you can see I now have 3 tanks, and I even managed to fit some Fire Dragons in there as well.

LIST 2 - Tweak

Eldrad Ulthran [210]

Farseer - Fortune, Jetbike [115]
7 Warlocks - Jetbikes, 2 Embolden, 3 Destructor, Enhance [370]

6 Jetbikes - 2 Shuiken Cannons [152]

5 Rangers [95]

5 Dire Avengers [60]

Falcon - Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo-fields [185]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML [155]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML [155]

TOTAL: [1497]

I've returned to Eldrad over the Autarch, as he can do awesome things with a Wraithlord and Falcon. Instead of the Guardians I took the Rangers as you suggested, and with the spare points went for a unit of jetbikes, since they are harder than guardians, and much faster.

So, which is it to be? :)

[joescalise]

I like your first list, I would just drop one WL and get some more troops for the objectives. Nothing better then Dire Avengers.

[karandras]

I think the first list can work just fine. The Wraithlords protect the Guardian Squads against assault and the Guardian Squad's Warlocks protect them from Wraithsight. Just keep the Guardians in cover. Together those units provide long range fire support and hold objectives. They should hold their own in KP missions as well. The Dire Avengers in the Falcon advance with the Seer Council ideally blocking the opponent's ability to target the Council with massed small arms fire. It can certainly work. Thanks to the Autarch, it will do just fine if reserved as well.

The key here is that it is a very very very small force. First turn will be key, but it often is with Eldar.

Personally, at 1500 points level, I believe a foot Eldar list is far more effective and would provide you with far more models. That being said, I am apparently in the distinct minority when it comes to being able to win with non-mech Eldar.

[bobdole4eva]

I think the first list can work just fine. The Wraithlords protect the Guardian Squads against assault and the Guardian Squad's Warlocks protect them from Wraithsight. Just keep the Guardians in cover. Together those units provide long range fire support and hold objectives. They should hold their own in KP missions as well. The Dire Avengers in the Falcon advance with the Seer Council ideally blocking the opponent's ability to target the Council with massed small arms fire. It can certainly work. Thanks to the Autarch, it will do just fine if reserved as well.

The key here is that it is a very very very small force. First turn will be key, but it often is with Eldar.

Personally, at 1500 points level, I believe a foot Eldar list is far more effective and would provide you with far more models. That being said, I am apparently in the distinct minority when it comes to being able to win with non-mech Eldar.

Thank you, its rare someone agrees with me on my lists :). I hadn't thought of running the Council with the Falcon, but that might work better if I kept Eldrad in the Falcon instead of taking the Autarch, and still keeping the Guardians. What do you reckon? The Wraithlords and the Guardians do make a great tag team, good at long range anti infantry, long range anti tank, short range anti infantry, combat and close up tank busting :).

[eagleboy7259]

Oh boy I am split right down the middle with which of the two lists I prefer. I got to admit, I love Eldrad, I think that the biker squad could use one of the warlocks, I also thought it was a rule that Warlocks HAD to have a power, they have no option to run without one. If you were going to go with that second list I think what I would do would be to remove the rangers, run 2x 5 Strong Guardian Jetbikes ( 1 Cannon each & Warlock), DVU or Fire Dragons in Falcon, and Storm Guaridans (2x Fusion gun + Spear on Warlock or 2x Flamers + Destructor) in a Wave Serpent for troops. would cut the Wraithlords, move a Warlock out of the Council for the Guardian Jetbikes and get another one for the other squad. Use the remaining points to buy a Falcon / Wave Serpent and 2-3 Warwalkers coming in reserve with scatter lasers. So with some crunching you should be around 30 troops, 3 tanks, and 2 walkers. I'm probably dreaming to think that will all fit perfect like that. Its all Saim-Hanny =D

[bobdole4eva]

Lol, boo to Saim-Hann. With Eldrad, a Seer Council, Guardians, a couple of Wraithlords and a small number of Aspect Warriors, I'm cut and stick Ulthwe all the way, and I plan to stay as such! (Not least because everythings already painted Ulthwe lol)

[eagleboy7259]

Lol. Well then list one looks much better to me than list 2 does. I agree with josecalise that if you find a way to either expand the number of troops you have or find a way to move them faster then you will do much better. Squeezing in the bike squad or a wave serpent and its good to go. I suggest taking out a warlock or two, or the Autarch again to get up to 110pts either for the Serpent or Jetbike Squad and see how that goes. I would play a few test games to test the balance to see what you can go without more easily, as the extra troop mobility will greatly increase your chance of winning objectives.

[karandras]

If Eldrad is an option, he needs to be there. I think I would actually drop the Farseer instead of the Autarch. Keep the Autarch with the Warlocks and place Eldrad in the Falcon with the Avengers. Some may cry cheese, but there is nothing illegal about this to my knowledge. Each Farseer (Eldrad included allow you to purchase a squad of Warlocks). It doesn't say that the Warlock Squad has to be with the Farseer. I think we may have hit on something here!

The Autarch provides the Warlocks with a Power Weapon and Eldrad does the same for the Avengers. Keep the Falcon with Eldrad inside within range to Fortune the Warlocks with the Autarch attached. Then you still benefit from the Autarch's reserve bonus if it is needed!

On a side note, Warlocks "MAY" purchase a power. There is nothing requiring them to do so. That would allow you to drop an Embolden from your squad to free up a few points. Good Luck!!!

That being said, I am actually A dedicated Saim-Hann player! I am even fortunate enough to have my codex autographed by Phil Kelly with the passage "Saim Hann Rule (Evidently)! :) - Phil Kelly" after I gave his Ulthwe a good drubbing!!!

[eagleboy7259]

Oh that is velvetta cheesy! However this is tournament so go for it. If theres nothing preventing it, then go for it. That would amazingly. Phil Kelly's signature? freakn awesome =D

[bobdole4eva]

LOL! That would be brutal, only downside being that it would slightly limit my Councils movement keeping it withing 6 of the Falcon, but its certainly worth trying out, thanks for the ad :D.

Since I like writing out lists so much, I think I'll write out 2 now, the first is my original list (before the Autarch) and the second is with no Farseer in the Council.

LIST 1 - Original

Eldrad Ulthan [210]

Farseer - Fortune, Jetbike [115]
7 Warlocks - Jetbikes, 2 Embolden, Enhance, 3 Destructor [370]

10 Guardians - Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden [125]

10 Guardians - Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden [125]

5 Dire Avengers [60]

Falcon - Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo-fields [185]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML, 2 Flamers [155]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML, 2 Flamers [155]

TOTAL: [1500]

LIST 2 - Cheesefest!

Eldrad Ulthan [210]

Autarch - Fusion gun, Laser Lance, Mandiblasters, Jetbike [140]
6 Warlocks - Jetbikes, Embolden, Enhance, 4 Destructor [330]

10 Guardians - Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden [125]

10 Guardians - Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden [125]

5 Dire Avengers [60]

Falcon - Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo-fields [185]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML, 2 Flamers [155]

Wraithlord - Bright Lance, EML, 2 Flamers [155]

TOTAL: [1485]

Can't decide how to spend the final 15pts though. Any suggestions?

[karandras]

Limiting the movement of the Jetbikes to cast Fortune is a good point, but I think you can minimize it thanks to the 6" assault phase move getting them back within range. Certainly the Falcon should be able to keep up with an 18" turbo-boost by the jetikes if it moves 12" as Fortune would be measured from any point on the hull to the nearest jetbike. You'll just have to be mindful about that throughout the game.

15 points to spend! That's easy! I would buy 5 Singing Spears. One for each of your Guardian Warlocks and 3 in your council. Now you have a Str.9 12" weapon to discourage any deepstriking Dreadnoughts, Valkyries, or dare I say, Land Raiders (Blood Angel nonsense!) with your Guardians Squads and a bonus antiarmour capability with your Council. Now you can choose between Destructor or throwing spears dependent on target.

If it is a WYSIWYG issue with the spears, I would upgrade your Guardian Squad Warlocks to Spiritseers and just give one of them a Singing Spear. This could give your Wraithlords a little more freedom if need be, but I definitely prefer the first option! Please let me know how this turns out. Good Luck! Cheers!

[bobdole4eva]

That's a great idea! I had't even thought to give Spears to my Guardian Warlocks. That'll make them even more of an all around threat. As for the Council, if I give a Spear to Embolden a spear to Enhance, and the last one to a destructor, then I'm not even limiting my destructorlocks, meaning i could throw 3 templates out every turn along with the spears, and still get 15 Witch Blade attacks on the charge, along with the 6 Str 6 PW attacks. I will definitely give that set up a go, see who cries cheese :P.

[Tynskel]

I thought the Warlock Council MUST be joined to the Farseer. It says so on p. 60.

Well... I guess it is a little unclear... they count as the same HQ choice...

[karandras]

Just re-read everything to be sure, due to Tynskel and Darklink being pretty knowledgeable rules boys. That being said, there is absolutely nothing that requires the farseer and warlocks to form a single unit. The codex very explicitly states that each farseer allows you to select a squad of warlocks. It goes on to say that the warlocks and farseer only take up a single HQ choice of the FOC. Nowhere does it say that they must form a single unit. I think your good to go.

[bobdole4eva]

perfect, especially because my game last night highlighted that my army has a major weakness to TEQs. Nothing I have atm can effectively challenge them, I think 6 WS6 S6 PW attacks will do the trick :D.

Thanks for all your help Karandras, wish me luck for the tourney :)

EDIT: Btw, I can't seem to find a use for Eldrad. Every game I've had he hasn't done as much as he did in my previous list. Do you have any tips on what might be a good way to utilise his unique talents to the max in this list. As it stands, I might just take him out for the full Seer Council with both Autarch and Farseer.

[karandras]

In my experience, Eldrad is probably the best bargain in the Eldar Codex. I really never run a Farseer. It's either Eldrad or no psyker.

I would definitely run Eldrad. I would always cast fortune on the Warlock Jetbike Council (of course). Second spell, is if the Falcon can claim cover, cast Fortune on it. If the Falcon cannot claim cover, I would probably cast fortune on Eldrad and the Dire Avengers inside of it assuming there was something that could potentially destroy the falcon. If there was no threat to the falcon and it was not able to take a cover save, I would probably cast Guide on the Falcon. With the third power, I would generally cast doom on the unit that you need to die the most. I generally use Eldrad for 1 Fortune and 1 Doom each turn. The third spell is generally either an additional Fortune or an additional Doom. I believe these to be the two most beneficial spells.

I often don't worry with Guide or Eldritch Storm (obviously, you cannot Mind War or Eldtrich Storm from inside the Falcon anyhow). Occassionally, I will try to double Mind War a particularly nasty beast such as a Daemon Prince or Tyranid Monsterous Creature. It is devastating against Carnifex. Good Luck!!!

[karandras]

Not only can he cast 3 spells including the same spell twice, his save is better, his toughness is better, and his hand to hand attacks ignore armor saves! Even with everything listed, arguably his greatest ability permits you to redeploy d3+1 units before the game begins! Don't forget this ability! It has the potential to fundamentally alter the game! Bait your opponent to one side and then redeploy your units to the other side - instant flank attack!