BT trial list

[gcsmith]

At the momenet im exploring the ideas of other armies wanting to keep the nids im started to Christmas or next year, and toying about going back to Black templars, so what do you think about this 1500 list.


Emperors champion with Accept any challange no matter the odds, (140) pretty standard

Castellen with powerfist combi flamer and bionics and frag grenades (106)
Command squad for castellen with 2 meltas term honours for champion power fist combi flamer and infiltrate and frags (158)

9 initiates with powerfist flamer with rhino and frags (164)
10 initiates with powerfist and flamer and rhino (171)

5 sword brethren with powerfist, melta gun and frags and infiltrate (125)
5 sword brethren with powerfist, melta gun and frags and infiltrate (125)

vindicator with Poms (155)
vindicator with Poms (155)

tornado with multi and HF (75)
tornado with multi and HF (75)

aparantly I still have 51 points as its 1449 anyway I Dont Know what to add. Still this list looks like the most solid one ive made. Any advice and how it will run pls??? also what should I give my rhino squads, Bp&Cs or Bolter??? any advice is good advice in my opinion Please rip it apart.

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

You MAY want to check your math...
9 initiates with only the PF and flamer are 165 pts...

I'm writing my own list as I write this comment, and my 9 man crusader squad with just a flamer and rhino comes out to 200 pts. I haven't really proofread any other of your pts values though...

A suggestion I just recieved was to have two 9 man crusader squads, and have one of each of your HQs ride with them. Maybe when I finish trimming off my list you can tear mine apart!

[eagleboy7259]

When I first got into Black Templars I received some awesome advice from Nikephoros which has carried me through to today. Basically if you are going to play Black Templars, you have to consider what our book has to offer that makes it worth playing over vanilla chapters. The more a player uses these six things the better his list typically does in a tournament setting. In no particular order they are:

1) Accept any challenge, no matter the odds
2) Assault terminators with lightning claws and furious charge
3) Neophytes to soak up wounds
4) 5 man terminators with 2x assault cannons and tank hunters
5) Marshal granting Ld 10 to the whole army
6) The old drop pod rules

now onto your list specifically - Crusaders Squads should ideally be equipped with Power Fist and Meltagun, with 5th ed rules, its just too risky to rely on only 1 power fist attack. Melta keeps the walkers away and if you can't get into a favorable assault situation you can shoot out the top hatch and play the mech game.

You cannot rely only on two Vindicators and two land speeders to effectively provide anti-tank. The nature of blast weapons, especially if you are relying on BS 2 of POTMS will usually let you down. The Land Speeders are solid, usually, but nothing else in your army can effectively deal with armor and a good enemy can knock them out of the sky the minute they show their faces.

Out flanking or infiltrating templars is usually a no go. The sad fact of life nowadays is that Black Templars are considerably lower on the close combat food chain than they where when the book was released. Combine that with the lower numbers and the low fire output compared to their cost, and you are basically wasting a whole big chunck of your army. If you want to play the outflanking melta game, go White Scars with Khan.

[gcsmith]

KK i have an updated list rethought about your guidance

Emperors champion with Accept any challange no matter the odds (140)

5 assult termies with furious charge in drop pod (245)
5 assult termies with furious charge in drop pod (245)

5 initiates and 4 neophytes rhino and melta and power fist and frags (204) emperors champion rides with these.

5 initiates with 5 neophytes in a rhino and melta and power fist (205)

Preditor destructor with lascannon sponsons (125)
Preditor destructor with lascannon sponsons (125)

Landspeeder with multimelta and heavy flamer (75)
Landspeeder with multi melta and heavy flamer (75)

Overall with CORRECT maths * my prob last time* is 1439 sp 61 points to mess with, Overall I feel this is better against troops and tanks than before and provides a somewhat hopefully competative BT list. What do you think I should do to improve more, and do you think its competative> Thanks again for any advice.

[Nikephoros]

Unfortunately, assault terminators are only great at 2000 points or above. In the list you have now you're better off dropping the assault terminators, going to a full 10 initiates in your troops choices, adding a third troops choice, and putting a tank hunting venerable dreadnaught with Multi-melta, powerfist, and heavy flamer in a drop pod.

The thing to remember with AAC is that its a flat cost. The fewer bodies you have in your army that use it, the more expensive it is per model. The opposite is true, too.

Here is the list I would play based roughly on what you have...

Champ AAC - 140
2x 10 initiates w/ Melta, PF, Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke - 486
1x 9 initiates w/ Melta, PF, Rhino Extra Armor, Smoke - 227
2x Predator Annihilator w/ LC sponsons - 290
2x Landspeed w/ MM and HF -150
1x Venerable Dread w/ MM, Heavy Flamer, Tank Hunter, Drop Pod, Deathwind Launchers - 205

1498pts

[gcsmith]

Hmm wats so weak about Termies at 1500 Ive seen them do wanders, and have done wanders for me in marines armies in the past?

[Nikephoros]

Hmm wats so weak about Termies at 1500 Ive seen them do wanders, and have done wanders for me in marines armies in the past?

Assault terminators without 3++ storm shields will not reach combat ever, unless they are in a Land Raider to deliver them. 5 or 6 terminators in a LRC is a hefty amount of points for 1500. Its not worth it really, since most times a single land raider will get popped first or second turn.

I say they get good at 2000, because at 2000 points you have enough for two land raider assault termie squads, which is enough for them to be successful. And you'll have enough points to afford support units.

If you want to do terminators at 1500, I would go for 5 deep striking shooty terminators with dual assault cannons and tank hunters. You could fit two squads of those in 1500 and they could do some serious damage.

Honestly, at 1500 the goal for BT is twofold:

1. Have enough initiate bodies to make AAC worthwhile, which is why I tend to think you need crusader squads at 1500.
2. Have enough support units to kill the things Initiates can't: vehicles, MC, dreads.

[eagleboy7259]

I agree, I would never run BT assault terminators without a LRC or Land Raider, its not worthwhile to run assault terminators without the means to stick them into assault the turn they show their faces. If you are basically dropping them straight into the enemy firing lines most opponents will have more than enough anti-troop fire to wipe them out.

Goatboy had an interesting thought in one of the video battle reports between him and Bushido when he won Goat vs Templars. Bushido had to pay an extra 60-70pts for a unit that had the same effectiveness as his (Land Raider Crusader + Assault Terminators & Heros) A lot of people are down on Land Raiders in the first place just because most people run around with sooo much dang melta. If you combine that with a unit that basically can't hurt you unless you're opponent is within sneezing distance I've been down on the eggs in a basket tactic lately too. Dakka Terminators lead by a Marshall are what I've been playing around with lately, twin assault cannons lay the hurt and a deepstriking Marshall has enough assault power to keep people from chewing through the squad before you can land the power fist attacks.

[gcsmith]

so what should I use instead of the Termies, considering I think the main bulk of my force is competative?

[Tynskel]

Unfortunately, assault terminators are only great at 2000 points or above.
1498pts

Uh... Terminators rock at 1500.

I have found that most lists do not know how to handle them. They just come up n' kill yew!

[gcsmith]

lol ty tynskel i thought that, but i trust the guys here :p

[Legoklods]

Play Orks!

Nah, I just think BT do best on a shelf - where the awesome looking minis admired, not on the board where vanilla marines can do just about anything cheaper and/or better:p

[gcsmith]

maybe but they were fun when i did them ages ago and have a certain character, plus If i can get them looking good i might be able to start doing commision :p

[Nikephoros]

Play Orks!

Nah, I just think BT do best on a shelf - where the awesome looking minis admired, not on the board where vanilla marines can do just about anything cheaper and/or better:p

Eagleboy posted a list of the things BT do cheaper and better, and it wasn't everything. BT are fail if you try to play a C:SM list with them, but if you actually play a list tailored to their specialties you will do significantly better.

[eagleboy7259]

Very simply I beleive that you can do one of two things, suck it up and drop the points to take two LRC's at 1500pts to make the Assault Terminators viable, which leaves you with Crusaders in the other LRC, and hopefully enought room to fit 2-3 Land Speeders and 2 more Rhino Crusader Squads

Roughly: (1496pts)

Emperor's Champion w/ ACC - 140pts

5 Sword Brethern Assault Terminators w/ Lightning Claws & Furious Assault - 215pts
10 Crusaders & 5 Neophyts w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 235pts

10 Crusaders w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 185pts
10 Crusaders w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 185pts

Rhino w/ Extra Armor & Smoke Launchers - 58pts
Rhino w/ Extra Armor & Smoke Launchers - 58pts

Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers - 268pts
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Laucnerhs - 268pts

I suppose it was a dream to fit in the Land Speeders, theres probably a way you could but plotting it all out thats basically what you would look like. Which isn't an ideal list but isn't horrible, I saw a 2x LRC + sloggers and terminators at the GT in '05(?) I have a picture of it, it did pretty decently for itself.

Nothing can really take the role of the terminators in the BT codex, because while most BT's might pop out ahead of regular joe marines and troops against true assault specialists they are lost justt because of their I value and standard toughness. You can make a pain of things using drop dreads, or shooty terminators, but if you had your heart set on that route then I would do the twin LRC's, and you can literally just hide stuff behind a LRC wall and run if your heart desires.

[gcsmith]

I just dnt like LRC they just seem kinda 'pants' to me I mean hurricane bolters aint spectacular :P tho this list might be good, I might just go for the cheapest money wise list 1st :p

[Nikephoros]

LRC are the best Land Raider variant, by far. It's the only one where the armament actually fits it's battlefield role.

[gcsmith]

ahh kk so any idea on how to use a LRC??

[Nikephoros]

ahh kk so any idea on how to use a LRC??

Put 6 assault terminators with furious charge in and point it at the toughest unit in your opponents army. After the terminators destroy whatever that unit is, the LRC can either mow through soft enemy troops or tank hunt as needed.

[gcsmith]

hmm kk so... The main problem of army is
3x boxes of marines £54
1x scouts £12
2 rhinos £40
2 LRC £70
5 Assult £25
man at £201 I need a job :P

[gcsmith]

Very simply I beleive that you can do one of two things, suck it up and drop the points to take two LRC's at 1500pts to make the Assault Terminators viable, which leaves you with Crusaders in the other LRC, and hopefully enought room to fit 2-3 Land Speeders and 2 more Rhino Crusader Squads

Roughly: (1496pts)

Emperor's Champion w/ ACC - 140pts

5 Sword Brethern Assault Terminators w/ Lightning Claws & Furious Assault - 215pts
10 Crusaders & 5 Neophyts w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 235pts

10 Crusaders w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 185pts
10 Crusaders w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 185pts

Rhino w/ Extra Armor & Smoke Launchers - 58pts
Rhino w/ Extra Armor & Smoke Launchers - 58pts

Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers - 268pts
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Laucnerhs - 268pts


This is 1612

[eagleboy7259]

Yeah late night math doesn't really add up... I was thinking it sounded better than I thought was possibly. It would be 2x 8 Strong Crusaders and a 10 Strong Crusader Squad.

The LRC can ideally fulfill both the anti-tank and anti-troop roll, think of it as the Baal Predators cooler older brother. If you've ever seen a break down of armor penetration and the twin-linked assault cannon you know its a damn fine tank buster. Add that to the multi-melta sitting up top and you're doing alright for yourself. The LRC can drive straight up to the opponent and deal with anything it sees as opposed to its brother the LR which is more of a sit back and pivot tank.

***EDIT***

Additional Things that we have that Vanilla, SW, and BA don't. They aren't our bread and butter but are useful

7) Vindicators w/ POTMS
8) Predator Annihilators that don't cost and arm and a leg
9) Venerable Dreadnoughts with Tank Hunters
10) Bike Squads that can take up to 3 power weapons / fists

[gcsmith]

how about something like


Emperor's Champion w/ ACC - 140pts

5 Sword Brethern Assault Terminators w/3 Lightning Claws, 2 THSS & Furious Assault - 215pts
10 Crusaders & 5 Neophyts w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 235pts

10 Crusaders w/ Meltagun & Power Fist - 185pts

Rhino w/ Extra Armor & Smoke Launchers - 58pts

Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Launchers & Blessed Hull - 293pts
Land Raider Crusader w/ Smoke Laucnerhs & blessed hull - 293pts

land speeder with multi and heavy - 75

This totals at 1494 and has more survivable Land raiders, especially for local meta :p

[Nikephoros]

Thats not a bad list at all. It may be too competitive for your local meta, 2 LR at 1500 may get a "cheese" cry from your non-mech buddies.

The blessed hulls are kinda crap, though. You can't do much with the 56 points though. Maybe drop the land speeder and get two Multi-melta attack bikes? I dunno if that is so good, but unless your meta is lots of Dark Eldar I'd say that blessed hull is a waste of points.

[gcsmith]

kk heres is new list I have made and feel is kinda better

standard loadout EC - 140

5 Assault Termies w/furious charge -215
Dedicated LRC smokes - 268

9 Initiates w/melta & powerfist - 169
Rhino w/extra and smokes - 58

10 initiates w/melta & powerfist - 185
Rhino w/extra and smokes - 58

Vindicator - 125
Vindicator - 125
Destructor with lascannons -125

total 1468 leaving me with 22 points overall I like this more, My assult termies can assault better, and my troops can fire out of the hatch, also It gives me a hella a lot more useful fire power.

[eagleboy7259]

Blessed Hull is a complete waste of points unless you are playing against someone who has Dark Eldar. The thing is that Eldar really don't have access to that many Bright Lances in the first place because they are so dang expensive for them. In most lists you'll usually face down only 2-3 of them on Wave Serpents. With DE however, everyone and their brother has a dang Dark Lance... good thing nobody plays them =D

If that's closer to what you have or what you feel like won't be called cheesy in the meta game then the one thing I would advocate for be to use the spare points to buy POTMS for the Vindicator and maybe trade up for another lascannon destructor.

[gcsmith]

In any meta 2 LRC isnt cheese, Any capable opponent can take them down after turn 2. Add gaurd here.
I like the 2nd list for the extra fire power, and POMS isnt that good, ;p and 2nd list dsnt have blessed hull.

[eagleboy7259]

I would very much like to argue that point about POTMS - to be completly honest the armor on space marine tanks just isn't that good, and with a vindicator the whole goal is to drive that often fragile tank within arms reach and shout BOOM! ALOT of weapons have the ability to consistently give the vindicator shaken or stunned results, which would basically neutralize the threat. POTMS will let you still move the tank and still shoot, and BS 2 doesn't hurt the vindicator like it does other tanks because of the way blast weapons work, its either going to hit or scatter no matter the BS. It might not be that good for other SM vehicles, but for the Vindicator POTMS is the cats pajamas.

[gcsmith]

but u dnt denie that 2 lrc isnt cheese? and yes I agree POMS is good, lol was tired when i wrote it wasnt.

[eagleboy7259]

It is and it isn't... You have to figure in the fact that BT's pay through the nose for our Land Raider Crusaders now compared to everyone else, even DA which is the same as ours starts at 250pts and Demon Hunters at 255pts with the better POTMS and the option to take Psycannon Bolts! Smurfs, Wolves, and Bangles all pay 30-40pts less for the same dang tank! Oh wait its not the same dang tank, its better... and we're supposed to be the ones who invented it during our crazy crusading... oh wells =(

There is just soo much out there that is 10x cheesier than anything we have right meow - playing BT is like playing DA, or any of the other outdated codexs we might be able to get a slice of cheese but dang it there are people running around out there with whole cheese platters. Personally I think that almost whole IG codex is cheese - especially when played like a leafblower list.

[Fellend]

yes but our lightning clawed marines with Accept any challenge makes kebab out of all the smurfs, puppies and vamps. =) Which is why i think this list is way to shootey, but hey that's my opinion, I only have enough shooting to open transports or stun things untill i can blow them up in assault

[eagleboy7259]

You can't realistically fit more than a squad of assault terminators and their ride into a 1500pt list. 2 of them plus rides and the mandatory EC is 1106pts, then 2x 10 Crusaders kitted out puts you to 1476pts... huh you know that might be fun to play with...

[Choron]

lol, what are POTMS?
list looks pretty good otherwise.

[eagleboy7259]

Power Of The Machine Spirit, the same rule that applies to Land Raiders - Black Templars have the option to take it, albeit the older worse version, as a vehicle upgrade for their tanks.