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Unholy_Martyr
04-01-2010, 08:42 AM
This is the latest incarnation of my 2500 point 'Ard Boyz list. It really has a little bit of everything, nice fire base and halfway decent assault element. Also, while trying to be competitive I wanted to do something slightly fluffy in using a Grey Knight Grand Master with Terminator Retinue to kind of re-enact the First Battle for Armageddon. He has a Psychic Hood that is good, is Initiative 5 and has a Force Weapon that ignores Eternal Warrior...pretty hard to say no to the guy. I've kept Bjorn in the list because he is just an absolute pain in the dick to kill; additionally, his ability to re-roll to go first in addition to his ability to become an objective are priceless. This is the list thus far:

H.Q.

Bjorn
Plasma Cannon -270

Rune Priest
Chooser of the Slain, Psychic Powers: Living Lightning, Tempests Wrath -110
Attaches to Long Fangs

Grey Knight Grand Master
Psychich Hood, Icon of the Just, Psychic Power: Hammer Hand, Grey Knight Terminator Retinue: 1 with Incinerator, 1 Standard, 1 Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield -338


Elites

Wolf Guard Pack 4x
2x Power Weapons, 2x Power Fists, Land Raider Crusader: Multi Melta, Extra Armor -407
Split up among Grey Hunters, Power Weapons with Flamers, Power Fists with Meltas

Troops

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Lascannon -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Lascannon -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Assault Cannon -170

Grey Hunters 5x
Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Assault Cannon -170

Grey Hunters 10x
2x Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Fist -195
Ride in Wolf Guard Land Raider

Heavy Support

Land Raider Redeemer
Multi Melta, Extra Armor -265
Grey Knights Ride Here

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Total: 2495

Thoughts, comments, criticisms?

Tynskel
04-01-2010, 11:22 PM
hmmmm....

Well, initial comments:
How did you do the points for the Grey Knights? You have listed 453 I am confused: the Grey knight Master is 145, 3 terms are 138, Hammer Hand is 10, Incinerator is 15. The Icon of the Just is 25, and the Psychic Hood is 20. I am missing 100 points...

why two land raiders?

You have enough wolf guard to split them into all of the razorbacks. (which looks like whatchya want to do)

You could start either the 10 man grey hunters in the Redeemer, or the Grey Knights. But you can't start anyone in the crusader, except for the Wolf Guard. Only the Wolf Guard (as a unit) can start in the Crusader.

I would get rid of the Crusader. It is a 275 point vehicle that can fails at its function: safely transporting Mans.

Your thunder hammer man is... interesting. That storm Shield is the gimpiest (is that even a word???) in the imperium, but the Thunder Hammer is tha Mutha-F-Bomb. 'May not attack until the next assault phase' Boo-ya!

So... here we go.

Personally, you have 4 squads of six guys for troops (I am counting the wolf guard, according to the FAQ). I don't think you really need any more. What your army is lacking is long range anti-tank. (missiles are more anti-transport, my opinion, of course).

H.Q. 755
270 Bjorn
Plasma Cannon
485 Grey Knight Grand Master
Psychic Hood, Icon of the Just, Daemon Hammer, Psychic Power: Scourging
Grey Knight Terminator Retinue:
5 Terminators, Incinerator, 1 Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield


Elites 325
263 Wolf Guard Pack
6 Wolf Guard, 2 with Power Weapons and Bolt Pistols, 2 with Powerfists and Combi-Meltas, 1 With Terminator Armor an Assault Cannon and a Power Weapon, 1 with Powerfist and Combi-Melta a melta bomb and a Space Marine Bike
62 Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
Inquisitor, 2 Mystics, 3 Warriors

Troops 670
165 Grey Hunters
5 Hunters, Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Twin Linked Lascannon
165 Grey Hunters
5 Hunters, Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Twin Linked Lascannon
170 Grey Hunters
5 Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Twin Linked Assault Cannon
170 Grey Hunters
5 Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen
Dedicated Transport: Razorback w/ Twin Linked Assault Cannon

Heavy Support 545
Land Raider Redeemer
Multi Melta, Extra Armor -265
Long Fangs 6x
5x Missile Launchers -140
Long Fangs 6x
5x Missile Launchers -140

FAST ATTACK 205
205 Swiftclaw Bikers Squad
5 Bikes, Attack Bike, Multi-Melta, Meltagun, Melta Bombs

Total: 2500

What I have done is basically enhance all the squads, and added a fast attack anti tank and an anti-deepstrike inquisitor.

The Grey Knights completely fill the Redeemer. I like hammerhand, but since I couldn't figure out where those points were going, I decided to upgrade your master. A Daemon Hammer is the same thing as hammer hand but MUCH MUCH better. Scourging allows him to still have a gun (a pretty good one, too). But that's 40 points you could shave.
Your Long Fangs will have the support of a Terminator with an Assault Cannon- Some of your targets will probably be within 24", and the Assault Cannon is roughly equal in its anti-tank/infantry role. It is the same points as a Cyclone, so you could just get a Cyclone.
I added a Swiftclaw Biker Squad for anti-tank duty. This could quite suck- so you might want to switch to a bunch of Land Speeders (LS) with Multi-Meltas (MM). You could get 4 MM LS and one regular LS for the price of the Swiftclaws and wolf guard biker. Might be better.

Of course, there are probably better suggestions.

Unholy_Martyr
04-02-2010, 09:18 AM
Yeah I apparently fail at math hard after re-doing the unit...was missing quite a few more points than I imagined...Was confused by that anyway because I had always listed a Rune Priest with it, so now that makes sense.

While no one can start in the Crusader, I was planning on using it for the 10 strong Grey Hunter pack, just embarking them first turn...it is a tricky situation; however, I wanted another tough transport that can get these guys across the field.

Two Land Raiders just helps out with target saturation, I have usually been running a single Land Raider with 6 Razorbacks and 2 Vindicators to flush out the armor. I figured I would try this set up and see how it works since outside of watching Goatboy's battle reports, I've never seen a Space Wolf army field 2 Land Raiders...I didn't like the overall idea due to the fact that Land Raiders are one trick ponies; however, they do bring quite a bit to the fight.

With regards to your suggested list, I have a few comments:

a) With the Daemon Hammer in tow, the Grand Master loses his greatest asset to me: The use of his Eternal Warrior ignoring Force Weapon. To me this is something that I just really can't pass up, add in the fact that the Daemon Hammer only shines when being used against Daemons and Chaos...I'd rather stick with his Nemesis Force Weapon. On to scourging....I debated this power throughly and decided against it as it is a Psychic Shooting attack and well...I could just use Psycannon Bolts and be almost as effective without risking a Psychic Test. I wanted Hammer Hand for those times when the Knights were facing Dreadnoughts or Vehicles so that they could hit hard in that respect. Granted the Thunder Hammer Knight that's part of the Retinue can do that, I would rather have the Grand Master go at initiative so as to avoid any unnecessary casualties.

b) Swift Claw bikes have become rather appealing to me as of late, one issue is though that I do not presently own a single bike yet so we'll see where that pans out. I may try these guys out later on.

c) Inquisitor with Retinue: As much as he would be an awesome addition to this force, especially in the way of Deep Strike protection, I think I'm going to have to decline. Unless he is mounted in a Vehicle he is EXTREMELY soft, and well...Soft just doesn't fit in an army of Marines. I originally had a Rune Priest with Tempests Wrath in the list as this always drew out to 24" and caused Dangerous Terran Tests for Deep Striking units. Inquisitor with 2 Mystics Telling my Vindicator to drop a round on a Deep Striking unit would be mad sexy, but I'm just not sold yet. I'll humor you and try it a few times.

d) If I drop the Terminator Wolf Guard I could have 2 Lascannons in each of the Long Fangs squad, granted an Assault Cannon or Cyclone would be a nice addition, I would prefer taking the Lascannons as they are a hot knife through butter when it comes to light Vehicles.

I'm going to update the initial list to reflect the change in points for the Grey Knights and add in some explanation for future reference.

Jwolf
04-02-2010, 10:00 AM
The list will be great if you face Marines or MEQs. It will be bad against Orks, IG, and non-elite Eldar. Dark Eldar will turn you into a sock monkey 9/10 times.

Putting almost all your Troops in gun platforms means you either don't go for objectives (and lose) or go for objectives (and wasted a lot of points on guns). Why not go with 50/50 on Rhinos and Razorbacks and get some more bodies?

Not taking the best anti-psyker in the game who also can conveniently blow up an entire Chimera line on his own is just bad math.

GKGM is very cool, but he's a fun choice, not a Ard Boyz choice. Odds are he will never fight anything that makes his super Force Weapon worth it - there aren't that many Abaddons who will charge him in cover, after all.

Unholy_Martyr
04-02-2010, 10:11 AM
I have been toying with idea of flushing out 3 Razorbacks, 3 Rhinos so as to have some mobility as well as firepower. The reason that isn't the case here is because I decided to try the 2 Land Raider approach. I may just forgo the entire idea of two Land Raiders and try the 3/3 split and see how it plays.

With regards to the best anti-psyker in the game, I have to ask where the difference lies between the Grey Knight Grand Master's Psychic Hood and the Inquisitor. They have the same effect and the same range, so this partly confuses me.

Also, the statement concerning taking down an entire Chimera line on his own seems well...misleading. Would that be because of the Warriors in the Retinue or am I missing something else?

I appreciate the thoughts, just would like some clarification.

Jwolf
04-02-2010, 10:45 AM
Njal is the best anti-psyker, and Chain Lightning can kill a bunch of Chimeras all at once.

Unholy_Martyr
04-02-2010, 12:02 PM
I originally was using Njal with my Rhino/ Razorback hybrid list; however, his awesome powers and abilities have a major drawback in my eyes: They all have about the same range as a Bolter. How many instances are you going to find 3-4 Chimeras or for that matter, even 2 Chimeras within 12" of each other? Additionally, his Runic Staff is 24" as well so that made me consider the Grey Knight Grand Master.

Bjorn affords several abilities that I feel are pretty huge:

1) Allows you to re-roll who goes first...This is huge, especially with the way the overall game has been shifting towards a first turn Alpha Strike. This garners the ability to play the game on your footing. Granted stealing the initiative would still be a chance, the re-roll can be priceless.

2) In Death, he is still useful. After Bjorn dies in an objective mission he becomes another objective. What does this mean? If things are looking grim and you need just one more objective to pull off the win or to draw your opponent away, he can be sacrificed in a way that still benefits me in the end.

Now, I'll post my original list and see if that is more of what 'Ard Boyz is looking for:

H.Q.

Njal Stormcaller -245

Runic Priest
Chooser of the Slain, Psychic Powers: Living Lightning, Tempests Wrath -110

Elites

Wolf Guard 5x
4x Power Fists, 1 Combi-Melta, 1 Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missile Launcher -220

Wolf Scouts 5x
Melta, Melta Bombs 3x -100

Troops

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma/Lascannon -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma/Lascannon -165

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma/Lascannon -165

Grey Hunters 10x
2x Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Rhino -215

Grey Hunters 10x
2x Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Rhino -215

Grey Hunters 9x
Flamer, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Rhino -195

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf Cavalry 3x
Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield -210

Heavy Support

Vindicator
Siege Shield -125

Vindicator
Siege Shield -125

Long Fangs 6x
3x Missile Launchers, 2x Lascannons, Razorback: Twin Linked Plasma Guns/Lascannon -245

Total: 2500

Lerra
04-02-2010, 12:16 PM
I like Njal, but the GW FAQ that means Tempest is only in effect during your turn (and often doesn't affect your opponent) if you go second.

That's the major hang-up I had with Njal when I play tested him. Rolls of 2-4 on the table effectively do nothing. Local meta is very light on psykers, though, so I didn't get an opportunity to use his anti-psyker abilities.


How many instances are you going to find 3-4 Chimeras or for that matter, even 2 Chimeras within 12" of each other?
Every time you play a mech IG player. It depends on your local meta, though. At adepticon about a third of the total lists in the championship had chimera spam. Locally we don't have a lot of IG players, and they tend toward infantry-heavy armies. If you are traveling to a tournament, though, expect to see the Leafblower list over and over again.

Unholy_Martyr
04-02-2010, 12:30 PM
True, many Leaf blower lists have mad Chimera Spam and they are always bunched up together, then again, with the right application of firepower, by the time Njal gets in range and can roll high enough to use Chain Lightning, all of those vehicles should be popped...if not, the game is already lost.

In all honesty, I have only faced 4 players consistently with Mechanized Guard and 2 true Leaf Blowers. With the Lascannons, Missile Launchers and Living Lightning, most of their armor just fell apart. Granted I almost always had first turn and avoided Melta Range like the plague, overall they just made me shift to the harder hitting list that I posted originally. Marine Equivalents and such are HUGE in the Southeast from what I have seen and hell, if I even make it out of the Southeast in 'Ard Boyz, I'll have already gone 2 steps further from what I intended. At that point, I would just be happy to play.

Tynskel
04-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Well... if you are going to drastically change your list...

Get rid of the Grey Knights- nothing that they can do, your army cannot do. Plus, you can buy your guys dedicated Transports.

1 Squad of Grey Hunters should be up to 10 and in a rhino.

Njal is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cheesy, why wouldn't you take him? You need to come up with a way to deliver him into combat- either a Land Raider or Drop Pod.

I Like Bjorn, so if you like him, he should stay!

I think you just have too many marines (especially the second list). Marines are good, but just don't have the killing potential that Elites and Fast Attack do. 'Ard Boyz for Space Marines is about having juuuuuust enough troops. The rest should be spent on units that are 'inexpensive' and effective.

Bloodclaws- relatively inexpensive for whatchya getting.

Take some different options- a second drednought, in a Drop Pod- some good ole I Deep Strike- Hah! This guy can just muck around, making your opponent destroy it, while your army advances.

Wolf Priest. Take a flat Wolf Priest, and attach to one Long Fangs Squad. Sounds silly--- but a Fearless unit that can fire at 2 targets is pretty nice. Especially when they start bombing your unit with pinning weapons.

Essentially, you want such a mix of units that your opponent has trouble identifying high priority targets.

Goatboy's advice- design an army, play 20 games with them. Play against armies that you will lose too.
This is good advice-- he's essentially saying, know your army inside out n' around, and know your opponent's army.

Unholy_Martyr
04-04-2010, 08:51 PM
I've tried the latest list on about 6 occasions and well...it just plays way too bland for me. Always the same set up, always the same effect (i.e. that's total cheese) blah blah blah.

The original list I had up is the one I would prefer just because it is different and has surprise elements.

I'm scheduled to do a few 'Ard Boyz missions from last year tomorrow so I will take both lists and post reports and we'll see what the results are.