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crazyredpraetorian
07-24-2009, 09:07 PM
You finally finish meticulously painting and basing your entire 40K army and you're about to play your first "painted" game. You look across the table and your opponent starts putting a bunch of unfamiliar figures on the table. It turns out they aren't GW models. What do you think of playing 40K with non GW models?

Personally, I'd feel kind of cheated.

Madigan
07-24-2009, 10:29 PM
I'd be perfectly happy to play against someone with non-GW models as long as the models look like what they're supposed to be.

If I'm playing against a Space Marine player, and he puts down a Tamiya WW2 tank and calls it a predator, we have a problem.

If I'm playing someone else and they put down a scratch-built tank cobbled together from various non-GW kits and plasticard that they use as a Rhino, and low and behold it actually looks mostly like a Rhino (proportion and general shape), then that's great!

crazyredpraetorian
07-24-2009, 11:53 PM
I'm not talking about nicely done scratch built models. I am all for creative modeling. It's part of the hobby. I am addressing the fact that there are some in the 40K community that do some pretty wacky stuff to keep from buying GW models. Two examples that I have seen online recently:

1. A "Green Army Men" Scout car repainted with a few GW guns glued to it and used as a Chimera.
2. Another company's plastic British Colonials glued to GW bases. The scale was off.

CrusherJoe
07-25-2009, 02:55 AM
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with using non-GW models in an army -- but only 1 or 2, perhaps as special characters/heroes/etc.

There's several cases where there's not an official model for a unit/character, or, the official model is less-than-stellar.

What you described, though, that's ridiculous. I hope you didn't see that in a tournament.

crazyredpraetorian
07-25-2009, 11:00 AM
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with using non-GW models in an army -- but only 1 or 2, perhaps as special characters/heroes/etc.

There's several cases where there's not an official model for a unit/character, or, the official model is less-than-stellar.

What you described, though, that's ridiculous. I hope you didn't see that in a tournament.

No, I saw it online.......and this goober was proud of it. The responses also made me think WTF??? I don't know if the posters were over compensating to try to avoid a flame war or if they too were......mentally challenged.

The use of non-GW models to represent 1 or 2 models or a special character has been done for a long time. I have no problem with that, either. However, some of the stuff I have seen on the internet recently is just.....it's enough to make the Emperor scream "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD".

splnes
07-25-2009, 01:03 PM
a friend of mine says the game sounds fun but the prices are too high and he said he would use his green army men. but that wouldnt fly with me!

RealGenius
07-25-2009, 03:37 PM
a friend of mine says the game sounds fun but the prices are too high and he said he would use his green army men. but that wouldnt fly with me!

Tell him it isn't a "game", but a hobby. Part of the game is building and painting. I call it "paying your dues".

crazyredpraetorian
07-25-2009, 11:58 PM
Check this out.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv58/gundamrx79/Picture227.jpg

CrusherJoe
07-26-2009, 01:40 AM
Wow...that's really bad.

At least they were painted, though? <--- (trying to find something positive to say here people, give me a break)

Khestra the Unbeheld
07-26-2009, 06:05 PM
I think I threw up a little. :O

crazyredpraetorian
07-26-2009, 10:19 PM
http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv58/gundamrx79/Picture237.jpg

This makes me imagine Ephialtes as a Praetorian.

Demosthenes
07-26-2009, 11:37 PM
Tell him it isn't a "game", but a hobby. Part of the game is building and painting. I call it "paying your dues".

I'm definitely more forgiving of broken armies if I see that you spent some good time building it to be wysiwyg and painting it well.

For example, I hate it when people use genestealers as psykers...*cough*...nvm, I was just using lotr ghosts as psykers the other day, lol. I swear I'll buy the real ones when GW is finished running out of them again.

And wow those are some bad Praetorians... Yours are definitely way better, John.

Oswald Shot First
07-26-2009, 11:51 PM
I don't mind as long as everything is consistent and decent looking, but that's a standard that's impossible to enforce.

CrusherJoe
07-27-2009, 01:34 AM
I don't mind as long as everything is consistent and decent looking, but that's a standard that's impossible to enforce.

In "friendly" games it's impossible to enforce, but in tournaments...no, it's not.

Tournament organizers have every right to look over an army before the game even starts and disqualify an army for not meeting a standard (which, in all fairness, should be posted clearly in the rules and made available well in advance of the tournament).

Come to think of it, it's even easier to enforce in friendly games. If you see someone with an army that offends your sensibilities...don't play against it. There's no law saying you have to play a game you know. :D

Oswald Shot First
07-27-2009, 12:33 PM
In "friendly" games it's impossible to enforce, but in tournaments...no, it's not.

Tournament organizers have every right to look over an army before the game even starts and disqualify an army for not meeting a standard (which, in all fairness, should be posted clearly in the rules and made available well in advance of the tournament).

Come to think of it, it's even easier to enforce in friendly games. If you see someone with an army that offends your sensibilities...don't play against it. There's no law saying you have to play a game you know. :D

In a tournament I think you have to more or less blanket ban them. Anything else is less than fair.

Jwolf
07-27-2009, 04:37 PM
We're pretty blanket-bannish for BoLSCon on wierd models. I think someone who has taken non GW models as a basis for extreme conversion work is fine - they're practically sculpting their own models at that point - but the guy with the Tamiya tanks is right out.

Dosadi
07-27-2009, 04:56 PM
I play at a GW store so you can imagine what that means for non-citadel models.

I have seen some really nicely done conversions of historical tank kits in some armies. German WW2 halftracks as chimeras and tigers as battlewagons in Ork armies. But all had had extensive conversions done to them. Where the line is drawn is another queston.
One GW manger told my friend that his half track wasn't converted enough. My friend pointed out the tracks had been replaced with IG ones and the turret was from FW (autocannon) with a pintle mounted stubber on it. Also the driver had been converted from a sentinel pilot and it had been painted with Citadel paints and covered with IG decals.When we pressed the manager to tell us what more could be done he simply told my friend to put more GW bits on it. We asked what specifically he'd like to see but he just walked away mumbling something about not letting my friend use it next time. I suppose the manager thought he was being fair, but my friend had bits ordered everything (save the FW turret) to convert the half track from that GW store and everything else in his army was Citadel so it wasn't like he was trying to build an army on the cheap as the examples above clearly are.


Dosadi

TheCommissar
07-31-2009, 11:34 AM
Those look really awesome! If I was playing with green army men that is....

I agree that when people bust out non GW stuff I feel cheated. Granted using some really awesome mini from another game or a Reaper mini for a hero or special wouldn't bug me much. I know a guy though that pulled out a bunch of old MageKnight orcs and tried passing them off as 40K orks. I was appalled and as a result wouldn't play with the guy. Then again this is the same guy who thinks it's ok to use blocks of foam because he doesn't want to buy a battlewagon or uses a Velveeta box instead of terrain.

Maybe it makes me a snob but it just takes away from my enjoyment of the game to face off against that.

Big_D
07-31-2009, 11:39 AM
Those aren't that bad. Better than some stuff I have seen out there. They are painted so that is a big plus. I doubt you would have a hard time figuring out what they are when they were set up on the table with the rest of the army.

Durfast Spiritwolf
07-31-2009, 11:42 AM
As long as they are based correctly, painted and the type/unit is clearly identifiable then what is the problem? When one buys any other set of wargames rules then there is no obligation to use that firms minis - this is just strong GW marketing hitting the spot.

You don't have to buy into the whole "GW Hobby" if you don't want to, there was life before GW and, I suspect (hope), that most wargamers play a spread of rules/periods. Indeed some of the firms leading figures even game (shock, horror) other systems.

Clearly, one mustn't be rude and take a load of non-citadel minis to a GW run tournament or shop for a game but otherwise, so what!

Welshman1440
07-31-2009, 11:47 AM
I've ran one or two tournaments and thankfully haven't had to turn anyone away for having a non-gw models in their army. I operate the same rule as my local store does, 75% of your model has to be GW and that's the same with the army. I tend to be more lenient towards IG and Orks as there are many different patterns but as long as

On a personal level, in pick-up games and the like as long as they look better than the GW model that's ok and are absolutely like the models they're representing. Things like the avatar of war miniatures and other high quality models are good with me.

Welshman

ChaosLord127
07-31-2009, 11:53 AM
I have no problem with proxying, as long as the models look to scale (ie no micromachine tanks) and there is some conversion work to make it look "40kish" For example, on tanks, lob the weapons off and use a lascannon that might be left over, or make a lascannon. As long as it matches scale, and looks convincingly 40k, I'm good.

thirdman
07-31-2009, 12:06 PM
I've seen much, much worse in my time, but then i do hail from the Rogue Trader era, when even GW encourged you to make hover-tanks for Imperial forces out of stick deodorant...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&aId=6700007

I also have no real issue with 40k-alike 28mm figs such as Void or Pig Iron, especially standing in for IG regiments.

Concentrate More
07-31-2009, 12:17 PM
I don't have a problem with the good ones, such as Pig Iron, but I wouldn't play against plastic army men (atleast not with my GW minis).

22metreline
07-31-2009, 12:21 PM
I thought there was a general rule that a model must be 50% GW to be legal, or is that just a local 'rule' at our store?

Blight
07-31-2009, 12:35 PM
I use some figures from Heresy Miniatures as Plaguebearers in my Death Guard army... so far, no one's had a problem with it. I've yet to enter a tournament though... would these not be allowed?

Lord Alchemy
07-31-2009, 12:37 PM
yeah that is pretty bad... the paint job is nice though. I see no problem with using 1 or 2 as stated above as special characters. I use a non-GW model for a female inquistor as the GW ones are pretty bad..:cool:

Marshal Argos
07-31-2009, 02:13 PM
I remember being poor yet still wanting to to be able to use tanks and armor. I started the same this guy did, I took old models tossed something 40k on it and away I went. Eventually this lead to converting and kitbashing, building out of cereal box or plastcard, pretty much anything that was available. But you know if A**holes like many of the people here told me how crappy my stuff was I would have probably given up long ago and left the hobby, actually prolly not because I really don't care what others think, but I feel sorry for the kid who posts up something he kit bash's so he can start learning like everyone else and he gets reply's like the ones I've read here.

Thanks for ruining my first day in the "Lounge"

OT:
- If I'm in a GW store I expect to play against painted GW Mini's. They don't have to be finished, but as long as it looks like your trying it's cool
-If it's at the LGS, I'll play against anything even a Coke bottle DP as long as it looks like your progressing on your army and it's not the same as it was a year ago.
-At home, well I only invite friends over so I really don't care what you bring in your army as long as there's a beer in there somewhere.

Magos
07-31-2009, 02:38 PM
If somebody is going to be a irritating about me using a few Microart studio minatures in my ad-mech army, then I will certainly not play with you. GW just does not have sufficent Ad-mech stuff available.

Some people try, but we're not perfect.

Also, if you jump down someones throat becouse they took the time to modify the Wargames factory British colonials so they carry guard issue lasguns, instead of buying the few praetorians on the web, then that just makes you someone I would not want in my gaming group.

07-31-2009, 03:12 PM
i'm fine with it cause i myself want to get some dinosaurs and use them as marine bikes or something (all that matters to me is the dinosaurs) dinosaurs are so cool especially for steeds

EldarWolf
07-31-2009, 03:41 PM
They supposed to be predators?

Lord Inquisitor
07-31-2009, 03:45 PM
With those Praetorian knock offs they weren't so bad. I actually had to take a little bit of a double take to make sure they weren't. As long as that guys is in the size range of my Cadian its fine, I mean he did take the time to take of whatever gun the dude had and throw on a 40k one. Those tanks earlier though, I could do it in a friendly game but would would'nt accept it in a GW sanctioned event or tournament.

warpcrafter
07-31-2009, 03:59 PM
I am pretty much in agreement with the majority of the people on this thread. However, I did just buy some micro art studios Ork greatcoat bodies and some Maxmini Ork pirate heads and the big post-apocalyptic guns, intending to assemble as Flash Gitz. At least they'll have GW Ork arms, left over from a Boyz box set I looted to make more efficient use of the contents of the Lootas/Burnas boxes. GW's aesthetic is so specific that you have to have a good deal of their stuff as components or get lucky when searching for parts. Of course, they could put out their own Flash Gitz models if they wanted to...:cool:

Javin
07-31-2009, 04:07 PM
I thought GW allowed a certain % of non GW items on a model.

Drunkencorgimaster
07-31-2009, 04:13 PM
I'm not talking about nicely done scratch built models. I am all for creative modeling. It's part of the hobby. I am addressing the fact that there are some in the 40K community that do some pretty wacky stuff to keep from buying GW models. Two examples that I have seen online recently:

1. A "Green Army Men" Scout car repainted with a few GW guns glued to it and used as a Chimera.
2. Another company's plastic British Colonials glued to GW bases. The scale was off.
Yeah, I hate to be a weenie, but I have agree that it should be GW models. I recon conversions should be about 60-70% GW stuff too.

On a similar vein, what do you all think of people who use an entirely different GW model as something else? I saw a guy use an un-painted broken lascannon to "represent" a Demon Prince. My kid similarly saw a guy use an unpainted hand grenade as a Heavy Multi-melta.

crazyredpraetorian
07-31-2009, 04:19 PM
Okay clearly this subject strikes a nerve with some people. As a former independent stockist, it drove me crazy to see the lengths some people will go to to avoid buying GW product. I had one guy that made his entire army out of other ranges . Then wrote his own codex for his own race. Of course it took all the advantages of other races and none of the disadvantages. He was always amazed that people didn't want to play him.

I love the hobby and I think supporting the hobby by buying product, when you're able to is part of that hobby. I hear alot of GW bashing all the time. Hell, I do it from time to time. But, at the end of the day, GW has to survive in order for this hobby to continue to grow. That is the bottom line in more ways than one.

If people want to play with little green army men, that's fine with me. If they want to use cheaper and in my opinion inferior models, that's fine as well. I just don't want to play against them. I'd rather invest my hobby time with other avid 40K fans. Fans that sacrifice the time, money, and effort to field a proper army. I have no problem with occasional proxies, conversions, or using models from other lines for SCs. In alot of cases it adds a tremendous amout to the game.

I play this game to enjoy it and I tend to get a little overzealous at times. Maybe I was a bit harsh in my earlier criticism, but it comes from love of the game not a need to disparage others.

Mystery.Shadow
07-31-2009, 05:52 PM
The way I see it, if I can INSTANTLY recognize what the scratch-build or kitbash model it is SUPPOSED TO BE then I find it a-ok in my book. If I have to second-guess WHAT it may be, I say no-go.

No matter what % of it is GW or not.

oni
07-31-2009, 08:20 PM
Personally, I'd feel kind of cheated.

I agree. Something just doesn't feel right when playing against non GW models.

Commissar Lewis
07-31-2009, 08:25 PM
My opinion on the matter is as long as it fits the general theme and idea of the army, fine. I haven't seen a lot of it myself, only been in the hobby for about a year, year and a half.

Personally I'm toying with the idea myself. My idea is to get some female Guard models for variety. As others have said, as long as people get the general idea of what it is at a glance it's good. Stuff like a dinosaur for a greater demon... actually wouldn't be that bad. Poor example.

Green, dollar store army guys as IG would be a slap worthy situation.

Rapture
07-31-2009, 09:03 PM
As long as the models are of decent quality and fit the spirit of the army they are representing then I don't see why it matters where the models are from. It might be hard to imagine something else as a space marine but Imperial Guard armies, for example, could easily be represented by a huge number of different models.

Lord Inquisitor
07-31-2009, 09:10 PM
Proxying is fine if it is reasonable that the model could be the other thing. The only thing I would want to proxy at the moment and use in real non friendly games would be Ratlings, but instead of the stupid little hobbits use Cadian snipers or something. At the beginnig of the game I would make sure my opponent knew that they were Ratlings but I don't feel that he could tell me that my Cadian snipers can't be Ratlings.

Drunkencorgimaster
07-31-2009, 09:25 PM
Oh, I am totally cool with that. The whole ratling concept is a tad stupid in my opinion anyhow. I never liked the idea of the Imperium accepting such mutant-runts into the IG anyhow. I just think an unpainting broken lascannon as a Daemon Prince is going too far. I suppose though, if it was a very sneaky Daemon Prince it might disguise itself as a broken, light- grey lascannon. No one would expect it.

Saint Coppella
07-31-2009, 09:35 PM
Do I dare ask what those tanks were proxies of?

kanisX
07-31-2009, 10:52 PM
I have a perfect example of an Ultraforge model that I could never refuse to play.

I got this guy for my friend who is working on a bangin' Death Guard army and he posted picts on my site:

http://www.tankwareuropa.com/node/35

check it out its the first series of picts on top named Singultus.

Lerra
07-31-2009, 11:18 PM
I'm building a heavily converted Chaos Daemons army at the moment. I love the fluff of Daemons but dislike the cheesy cartoony metal models. I'm using at least 75% GW parts in each model (nothing but GW parts and greenstuff), adding a lot of mutations and fleshy bits to the models for a darker version of Tzeentch. I've run into a few problems at local non-GW stores, much to my surprise. I'm assuming my army wouldn't fly at a GW store, either.

My Horror squads were not allowed because they are based on WHFB Dryads. Also, there is no model for the Changeling, and GW actually suggests using your favorite random model for him as he's a shape changer and can assume whatever form he pleases. I took an epic-scale Wraithlord and added some daemon features to make him look nice and twisted (but still mocking my eldar buddies ;)). The LGS disallowed them because they were not immediately recognizable. A sad day :(

So, a warning to converters! Don't go too far or you might not get to play with your toys when you're done.

The army got shelved for the moment, altho tbh it's mostly because the 8+ hours to finish each model was too much. It's a shame to not be able to play what I've completed so far, though.

edit: This is the same LGS that disallowed the Disco Necron army, so they might just be tightarses, too. Think Necrons with Afros and a Monolith with a disco ball. It was hilarious :)

Malficfret
07-31-2009, 11:36 PM
Tell him it isn't a "game", but a hobby. Part of the game is building and painting. I call it "paying your dues".

Paying our dues is all well and good, but there are many ways to go about it. I paid my dues by scratch building all the tanks in my chaos army. Everybody who faces me on the table comments on my "above and beyond" dedication to the hobby.

Malficfret
07-31-2009, 11:41 PM
I'm building a heavily converted Chaos Daemons army at the moment. I love the fluff of Daemons but dislike the cheesy cartoony metal models. I'm using at least 75% GW parts in each model (nothing but GW parts and greenstuff), adding a lot of mutations and fleshy bits to the models for a darker version of Tzeentch. I've run into a few problems at local non-GW stores, much to my surprise. I'm assuming my army wouldn't fly at a GW store, either.

My Horror squads were not allowed because they are based on WHFB Dryads. Also, there is no model for the Changeling, and GW actually suggests using your favorite random model for him as he's a shape changer and can assume whatever form he pleases. I took an epic-scale Wraithlord and added some daemon features to make him look nice and twisted (but still mocking my eldar buddies ;)). The LGS disallowed them because they were not immediately recognizable. A sad day :(

So, a warning to converters! Don't go too far or you might not get to play with your toys when you're done.

The army got shelved for the moment, altho tbh it's mostly because the 8+ hours to finish each model was too much. It's a shame to not be able to play what I've completed so far, though.

edit: This is the same LGS that disallowed the Disco Necron army, so they might just be tightarses, too. Think Necrons with Afros and a Monolith with a disco ball. It was hilarious :)
Right on! It's armies that explode with personalized character that are the best to build and play. Keep up the good work.

slovak
07-31-2009, 11:56 PM
I don't have a problem with non-GW models being played in 40k and I never have as long as I have been playing. As long as the intention of the player is to field an army that he/she sees fitting in somewhere in the 40k universe, and as long as they are making an effort to enhance the game with the appearance and play of their army, why should I care?

I personally miss the Lost and Damned (DYI list) in our hobby, I loved to see purely converted armies on the field (wherever the bits came from). I think the hobby is poorer if we accept only the look and feel of the GW designers (however talented they may be) to tell us what everything looks like in a universe with millions of inhabited planets, races, etc.. As long as they know their codex, do their best to paint and prepare their army, and play by the rules it doesn't effect the game if the models come from another game.

The issue of substituting a lascannon model for a Demon Prince is a totally different thing than a respectful player showing up with painted and appropriately based non-GW models. A lascannon doesn't represent a Demon Prince, and you need to paint amd base at least an approximate model or don't bother taking your army out to the public.

BuFFo
08-01-2009, 12:20 AM
I am perfectly fine with using non GW models.

Would I ever do that myself? No. But I don't care if my opponent does.

Inquisitor McSagington
08-01-2009, 03:59 AM
I would allow it as long as they stuck to what they say it is. Nothing worse than a cheater.
But when I (eventually) get a LatD army off ground I intend to use a lot parts from other companies-e.g Pig Iron press's gasmask heads. Simply because they're cheaper.
Proxying however is completely cool with me. I once saw a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh proxied by a Barbie doll-which makes a horrid amount of sense when you think about it.

Col.Gravis
08-01-2009, 07:17 AM
I'm gonna make a it of an iffy statement on those Praetorians here, while it's impossible to basicly prove, I'm gonna bet if I took those same Colonial and did something with them, using the same basic conversion idea of Cadian arms and/or weapon swaps, but working to the best of my abilities (http://colgravis.blogspot.com/search/label/Colonel%20Ackland) they'd get few, if any, complaints - at least compaired to what this individual is being subject too.

I think we all love to play against a well painted and modelled army, and most of us who are in the hobby for more then just the game would strive to own such armies ourselves, the problem is we all have to start somewhere, which may well not be winning demons. In our own personal quests to achieve that some people stick GW, some people scratch build, and some people use models from other ranges*, the results won't always meet with applase as in this case but it's someone taking steps on that path. Cristism is good, without exception, but only if it is constructive, how the models or ideas could be improved upon.

* I'd make the exception if no effort has been made at all to convert them appropriately.

vman
08-01-2009, 09:32 AM
A line has to be drawn somewhere... Often i see a wikkid mini on CMON and i think hey that would make an excellent figure in an army but its not GW related.

I think if it fits in well then its fine, but if it sticks out like a sore thumb then I wouldnt be too happy about it

Lord Sandwich
08-01-2009, 09:41 AM
Well, I guess it depends. If someone's put in time and effort to paint them, AND they look like what they represent somewhat, then we're fine. If the opponent throws down a pre-painted AT-ST and calls it a Sentinel, then there's something wrong there.

Nedark
08-01-2009, 03:17 PM
The first time we (my friends and I) went to the new GW store about five miles out, our 'nid player was working on converting a fake giant beetle he found in his basement into a Hierodule (I think). We walked in and started setting up. He pulled out what he had so far (a semi-painted fake beetle and a cardboard base) and set it up. Not long after, the manager came up to us and said that we shouldn't use that model. When we asked why and told him what it was supposed to be, he told that all conversions had to be 50% GW pieces. He went on to say that since this is the first time we had been to this GW and brought a conversion like this, he would let us use this time. We shrugged our shoulders and started. Halfway through the first turn, the manager walked out of the back room with a well painted store-owned hierodule (or carnifex. Can't remember). He walked over to our nid player and asked him if he wanted to use that instead. He happily put away the beetle and put the GW model in its place. I'm not sure if he is still working on the beetle though...

I personally am fine with converted models or models from a different game if it resembles the actual model somewhat. And before a game, (like a week before) the person who wants to use a non-standard model describes it (or shows us it) and asks if he can use it. We only say no if they don't intend to make the model at a later date or if it is absolutely ridiculous (Ork for a reaver titan). I remember during a game held out the 'nid player's house, another friend was using orks. Since this was an apocalypse battle, we agreed a while before the game to let him use an ork flying fortress the 'nid player was making. However, the flying fortress wasn't ready by then (he still had to attach the flying base and since the model was huge we couldn't set it on the table. So, we quickly found a tin bucket that we let him use as a flying fortress. However, had we known that the actual model wasn't going to be ready by then, we would have told him to have it in his army list.

MrGiggles
08-01-2009, 05:25 PM
Much like I don't see an issue with playing against partially painted or even unpainted armies, I don't really have a problem with playing against non-GW models. There are some fantastic models out there form other companies and honestly, I don't see a good reason to exclude them from a game. Now, this is also contingent on my being able to tell things apart and the like. If it's going to confuse the daylights out of things, then somebody needs to bust out the post it notes or something.

In terms of what's allowed in individual tourneys and stores, well, that's up to the organizers and owners. It's their prerogative to place specs on exactly what folks can bring in.

SoulFire
08-02-2009, 05:45 AM
I can understand why the stores dont want non-GW models being used in-store. Its like walking into macdonalds with a burger king meal in ur hand and sitting down to eat it. I think one or two alternative models are fine, IF they are awesome. but army men? If u put time, money and effort into your army, you dont want your opponent to break out a cheap army that took him an hour to paint. If they really hated the prices that mush I'd lend them an army.

chromedog
08-02-2009, 05:57 AM
I don't have a problem with NOt using GW minis.
I hark back to RT. There were some things back then you had to source from elsewhere. I still use my original kitbashed vindicator and whirlwind (from before there were kits for them). The base vehicle is GW, but not necessarily the rest.

Those WF redcoats make fine praetorians with a little work. My own IG in progress army involves both them and GW cadians (I'm using spare heads off the WF set on cadian bodies and spare lasguns shaped to fit the WF arms). They don't actually look that bad when DONE WELL.

I'd prefer to see them across the table than an unpainted grey tide, or bare bases (both of which I've seen at my club).
I've never played with a group that enforced a "no GW minis" or"must be xx% GW minis" policy - we've always had clubs here that I've played in, generally started by DBA/M or other ancients/napoleonics/ww2 players who let the 'new punks' in.
(It was generally let them in or die from declining numbers.) - for at least the last 20 years.

Pinky Narfanek
08-02-2009, 03:58 PM
I see these topics pop up pretty frequently, and I've got to say that it saddens me a great deal. Hell, it even makes me mad.

Think about this: How would you like it if your kids weren't allowed to play sports at the local playground because their equipment was Bauer or Majestic instead of Nike or Reebok? Or because their "uniforms" were kids in the same color t-shirts instead of custom printed/sewn jerseys? Or because the equipment was second hand or mis-matched?

Mindless-Focus
08-02-2009, 04:18 PM
personally, i have no problem whatsoever. Infact, i have aften thought of using Hasslefree Miniatures' Grymn as Squats but just using SM rules. Everything in Kev White's line looks close enough to represent what you would need it to be. But for me, thats only for casual/club games. Yeah, i can see where tourniments can be different. IDK, i still may do those Hasslefree Grymn...

Asymmetrical Xeno
08-02-2009, 04:42 PM
eh, I prefer it when people convert/sculpt or use other figures to represent more individual and unique armies. As long as I know what the rules for them are beforehand I have no problem and actively encourage more people to do this.

If anything its the stock-models and "template" armies that are making 40k less and less interesting for me (I dont play in shops or tournaments because I find the same boring established craftworld/chapter/chaos legion/orkwarband paintschemes boring to look/play against).

My Tzeentch Daemons use non-gw mdoels because I utterly f**king hate and despise some of the Tzeentch models that exist (i.e. the Greater Daemon..oh wait that is just the only model I hate) and used RAFM Call of Cthulhu stuff instead for the Greater daemon, daemon prince and other things like heralds. I dont know why I should have to use a model I dont like just to make a few people not feel "cheated". I have zero interest in tournaments or playing in the shop though, friendly house games only for me.

I've also seen people do awesome things with Hasslefree, Troll Forged and a host of other smaller companies, its a breath of fresh air and creativity for me and ill happily play against armies like that.

Slann
08-02-2009, 05:16 PM
I have been a pretty big tourny person although I play in a lot of indy GT's so iam used to see non gw stuff , but as lng as it is in the spirit of the army i say go for it , I have had the pleasure to see some fantastic non gw 40k and fantasy army's . dont blame someone if they like the game that all there peers play but don't have the money for some gw stuff . There prices are through the roof way more than they should charge , I have been playing this game a long time GW keeps on getting more for the money rather than the hobby year by year , you think it was game play that made them make troops the only unit that can claim an objective , it made almost everyone that played elite armys have to go and redo there list and buy more troops .

The above pictured stuff really ant that bad at least they changed the weapons to make it WYSIWYG .

And also indy events is where its at , little to no young rude kids , fairly priced , and offer a prize in models if you win and the trophy , they also take the time to have a hotel close by give special rates .

mono
08-02-2009, 05:28 PM
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with using non-GW models in an army -- but only 1 or 2, perhaps as special characters/heroes/etc.


Gotta agree with Joe on this...my old IG used a non-GW mini for a HSO, but it was in the process of being converted to 40K visual theme. If someone uses a non-GW mini and goes to the effort of converting it, that's cool, more power to 'em, and if it really is cool, then rock on! But a plastic army men jeep? That's just being cheap...the hobby's not a cheap one to get into, and if you want to be in it, be willing to foot the bill for it!

Slann
08-02-2009, 05:55 PM
I guess it can also be in what context like I sometimes use pre painted hero scape stuff in a necromunda/=I=munda/spacequest hybrid game I run . in the campaigns I tend to use the pre painted stuff as NPC stuff just cause its hard to play both 40k and fantasy and than have to paint up npc stuff for the games I gamemaster for .

Diagnosis Ninja
08-02-2009, 06:14 PM
Man, I'm lucky that I play down at Games of War if people are as stingy as that.

Sure, I haven't seen an army made of non-GW as a majority, but to say that everything HAS to be blah percent GW? Kinda sucks. I mean, The only reason I would be able to use my scratch built Ork Deff Dread is because I used like 70 Ork shoulder pads as armour plating on it :/

If somebody came up to me and suggested using Army Men as guardsmen, I think I would have to pull out the Bolsa Wood Manta, the Lynx Daemon Princes, and the Pirate Ship Rhinos :S

AdamHarry
08-03-2009, 12:13 AM
I see these topics pop up pretty frequently, and I've got to say that it saddens me a great deal. Hell, it even makes me mad.

Think about this: How would you like it if your kids weren't allowed to play sports at the local playground because their equipment was Bauer or Majestic instead of Nike or Reebok? Or because their "uniforms" were kids in the same color t-shirts instead of custom printed/sewn jerseys? Or because the equipment was second hand or mis-matched?

But that is not a fair comparison.

When you buy sports gear you're buying gear to play the sport. doesn't matter where it's from as long as it's regulation (meets the standards for that sport).

When you buy GW-model's you're (typically) buying them to play a GW-game.

When you buy a tonka truck to "convert" it into an ork battlewagon, you're just trying to screw over gw, local retailers, and cheating the people you play with.

Support the stores you play at, and buy the products. And yes, i realize that it's an expensive hobby, but it's a hobby...and if you aren't even trying to support the hobby then maybe you should pick a new one.

Slann
08-03-2009, 12:34 AM
I can see supporting you local game store sure , but I can also see why people are going other routs to play warhammer/40k , now I buy GW I like there stuff but they have lost there mind with some of the prices and what do you do when that happens ?

You either buy into there poor excuse for there marketing or you stop buying ther stuff til they change the price , does that mean stop playing the game you bought the rules for and have been playing for years no , but it can mean stop buying there models til they lower there price . I mean come on $45 bucks for 10 plastic great sword ! , that's the same cost as 10 chaos knights that are mounted .

Like I said I probably will always buy there stuff I love there plastics and most of there metals but Iam not going to look at someone with a crooked eye when they are fed up with the price hikes .

Diagnosis Ninja
08-03-2009, 04:43 AM
When you buy a tonka truck to "convert" it into an ork battlewagon, you're just trying to screw over gw, local retailers, and cheating the people you play with.

Support the stores you play at, and buy the products. And yes, i realize that it's an expensive hobby, but it's a hobby...and if you aren't even trying to support the hobby then maybe you should pick a new one.

The problem I have with that is that I bought my Orks army hardcore, spending £72 on boxes of Ork Boyz alone. after that, I've bought AOBR, 3 boxes of Tankbustas (when they were £15 each) Lootas, burnas, a Weird boy, and about another £50 worth of stuff. Yet, by your count, I'm stinging by making a Deff Dread from a match box, and shoulder pads, or a Killa Kan from bits off the Ork Trukk, and a paint pot? Not buying it, like. I only play GW games, so how can I not support them?

Aldramelech
08-03-2009, 05:49 AM
If I'm playing 40k then I want to play 40k, I wouldn't turn up to a game of badminton with a golf club.

I have no problem with conversions of GW models, but they have to have started life as a GW model. Scratch-building is fine as long as its well done and looks like what its supposed to be.

My main pet hates are playing with unpainted figures (people who play with unpainted figures play with themselves!) and cheating at WYSIWYG.

To combat the unpainted figure problem a local tournament introduced a rule saying each model had to have at least three colors on it.......... You can imagine what happened there! "The black undercoat is a color" what a nob.

In another tournament a guy with a white scars army was busy telling his opponents that "Yes, he has got a plasma pistol, it broke off" "Oh hes got a flamer, that broke off too" I would have walked off and let him win as winning is obviously that important to the guy.

I spend alot of time fielding well painted, properly converted, correctly WYSIWYG armies and it annoys the hell out of me when people turn up who couldn't be bothered.

Diagnosis Ninja
08-03-2009, 06:04 AM
Man, I must seem really aggravated over this conversation >.< haha.

The three colours thing seems to be a pretty decent idea, Aldramelech. Shame I could never get my Independent Stockists behind it :(

I suppose, now that I've thought about it, my answer is simply "If I can tell what it is, then I'm happy to play against it." As for the playing against a painted army thing, I'm currently trying to get through the marines my best mate gave me before he left for the army. I already had a couple of hundred points worth, and have added to it since then, but he gave me a full army, so it's pretty big now. I have about 1000-1200 of it at least started, if not fully painted.

It is annoying though that most people I'll play against down at Games of War will never have a fully painted army :( I don't feel cheated by it, but it is a little sad that they can't be bothered to spray something black, and at least dry brush everything XD

Aldramelech
08-03-2009, 06:13 AM
I feel your pain! lol

I left the hobby 7 years ago, sold the lot and walked away. Now Im back and painting furiously to get armies back on the table. Im painting a 2000pt IG army at the moment and have 1000pts done, So on wed Im playing at my local club with 1000pts, I wouldnt dream of turning up with the unpainted 1000pts, I just couldnt do it! lol 2000pts of Space Marines to do after that.

xarius
08-03-2009, 06:46 AM
games workshop are far more about the buisness now than the hobby. they used to accept that they id not produce everything you need/want for your models and even included some pictures of other peoples converted kits in their books (WD compendium) but now they have an incredibly narrow view about the hobby and want to be completely separate from anything else anything like them.

i miss pound shop trucks as battlewagons

Col.Gravis
08-03-2009, 06:49 AM
Aldramelech, Ryga's Roughnecks by any chance?

Old_Paladin
08-03-2009, 07:39 AM
I can totally understand using non-GW.

I've heard a lot of bad-mouthing that applies to ork stuff. The reality is that unless you started with orks in the last year or two, many models WEREN'T supported, and things that were, were as ugly as crap (I'm talking about you, Gorgamorka/3rd ed. trukk and 2nd ed. warbuggy!). For a decade, ork players made their own stuff however they could, why should they be told now that it's not appropriate from them to keep playing with their toys.

If GW based their IG tanks of 1920's-1930's Soviet and French tanks, then someone using a B1 should fit right in. I plan on modifying a Tiger for my Doom Legion, with a Marine standing on the back deck, firing a pintle-mounted lascannon; with a forward hullmounted lascannon.
The Tiger is just a fearsome looking tank, I love it, and will find some way of putting it in.

The Green Git
08-03-2009, 07:57 AM
For tournament games, I have no problem with non-GW models as long as:

1. They are approximately the same size and shape as the model they are meant to represent.
2. They are WYSIWYG and appropriately converted and/or built to look "40K-ish".
3. They have a nice paint job.

Just plopping down a green plastic army men jeep doesn't do it for me.

Of course in friendly games, list tuning games or other special situations they are fine. As long as we all know that upside down plastic cup is a Carnifex and my 20oz pop bottle is a drop pod who cares?

My .02.

Aldramelech
08-03-2009, 11:27 AM
Aldramelech, Ryga's Roughnecks by any chance?

Exmouth Imperials:D

Fatty Revolution
08-03-2009, 11:35 AM
My Psyker battle squad is 9 non-GW models and a Commissar as a custodian. I think it makes for an interesting and unique unit. and as long as you don't go overboard I don't see a problem. I still run 99% GW models.

Here is the model I used as my Psykers. I was going for a creepy F.E.A.R./ the Ring thing, A little bit of psychological warfare for you.

http://armorcast.com/store/images/a039rose.jpg

Col.Gravis
08-03-2009, 11:41 AM
Exmouth Imperials:D

Ah yes :) Exeter Inquisition here, must get in contact with you guys sometime before the years out, we're arranging inter-club tournaments with various South West clubs, played Rygas, making arrangements with Dice & Dagger from Stratton.

Aldramelech
08-03-2009, 11:45 AM
Ah yes :) Exeter Inquisition here, must get in contact with you guys sometime before the years out, we're arranging inter-club tournaments with various South West clubs, played Rygas, making arrangements with Dice & Dagger from Stratton.

You the guys at the shop?

The Green Git
08-03-2009, 11:47 AM
Here is the model I used as my Psykers. I was going for a creepy F.E.A.R./ the Ring thing, A little bit of psychological warfare for you.

http://armorcast.com/store/images/a039rose.jpg

Dude that is an awesome model. I would have no problems at all playing against that unit. Bonus points for making the unit unique!

Fatty Revolution
08-03-2009, 11:57 AM
Thanks. :) My buddy hates them he always says he feels bad taking a chainsword to a little girl. But I explode his stuff with MIND BULLETS!

Diagnosis Ninja
08-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Hey, if a wee girl was wearing a gas mask that big, I'd be chainswording her too. It's too Psycho Mantis to be healthy.

MerchantDragon
08-03-2009, 12:10 PM
The use of non-GW models to represent a few models or a special character has been done for a long time. I have no problem with that, either, but any non-GW model needs to be more or less in scale.

As for the “green-men” I’d say no way.

Col.Gravis
08-03-2009, 12:10 PM
@Aldramelech, have PMed you, but yes we're the club based at GW Exeter on Tuesdays.

@Fatty Revolution, yeah thats a lovely model, really fitting for a Pysker actually, reminds me of an episode from Dr.Who a few years back set during WW2 with loads of people with gas mask's for heads.

Denzark
08-03-2009, 02:12 PM
Hey chaps

What do you think of this landraider scratchbuild? This is WWI 1:35 Emhar crossed with Landraider and lots of plasticard (hull). Hoping this will pass muster for the Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World in Oct, but your opinions would be appreciated - should it pass muster and would you boycott it or not?

http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/yy257/denzark/?action=view&current=LandraiderConv.jpg

http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/yy257/denzark/?action=view&current=LandraiderConv.jpg

Old_Paladin
08-03-2009, 02:44 PM
Hey chaps
What do you think of this landraider scratchbuild? This is WWI 1:35 Emhar crossed with Landraider and lots of plasticard (hull). Hoping this will pass muster for the Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World in Oct, but your opinions would be appreciated - should it pass muster and would you boycott it or not?

Looks great, I'd let it through no problem.
With the old body, you should have tried the old over-under style for the lascannons. But it still looks great, everyone will know that it's a landraider.

crazyredpraetorian
08-03-2009, 02:45 PM
My Psyker battle squad is 9 non-GW models and a Commissar as a custodian. I think it makes for an interesting and unique unit. and as long as you don't go overboard I don't see a problem. I still run 99% GW models.

Here is the model I used as my Psykers. I was going for a creepy F.E.A.R./ the Ring thing, A little bit of psychological warfare for you.

http://armorcast.com/store/images/a039rose.jpg

Now THAT is cool.

Majorcrash
08-03-2009, 02:48 PM
I personally dont care, but they should be fairly close and representive of that they are substituting for.
Army men don't cut it but, "pig iron" models of the same scale are ok as IG, etc....

Pinky Narfanek
08-03-2009, 07:38 PM
But that is not a fair comparison.

When you buy sports gear you're buying gear to play the sport. doesn't matter where it's from as long as it's regulation (meets the standards for that sport).

When you buy GW-model's you're (typically) buying them to play a GW-game.

When you buy a tonka truck to "convert" it into an ork battlewagon, you're just trying to screw over gw, local retailers, and cheating the people you play with.

Support the stores you play at, and buy the products. And yes, i realize that it's an expensive hobby, but it's a hobby...and if you aren't even trying to support the hobby then maybe you should pick a new one.
The comparison is almost as good as it gets. It's near perfect. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it less true.


When you buy miniatures you're buying minis to play the game. doesn't matter where it's from as long as it's regulation (meets the standards for that game).

When you buy Nike you're (typically) buying them to play a Nike-game.

When you buy a Wilson glove to [use it as] a Nike glove, you're just trying to screw over Nike, local retailers, and cheating the other team.

Oh, and a nice attempt on the redirects and purposefully making incorrect comparisons as well ("regulation" games vs. pick up games in the park, on the playground, etc.). And I've got to admit that it's always a kick to watch people try to deflect from the actual issue (gaming with non-GW minis) into the traditional inflammatory techniques ("cheating", dis-loyalty to GW, dis-loyalty to your LGS, etc.).

AdamHarry
08-03-2009, 11:03 PM
Oh, and a nice attempt on the redirects and purposefully making incorrect comparisons as well ("regulation" games vs. pick up games in the park, on the playground, etc.). And I've got to admit that it's always a kick to watch people try to deflect from the actual issue (gaming with non-GW minis) into the traditional inflammatory techniques ("cheating", dis-loyalty to GW, dis-loyalty to your LGS, etc.).


You're comparing generic sports games (games with regulation equipment, made by different manufactures, all for the purpose of playing the same game) to a hobby game. a table top miniatures hobby game. this is why it's not a fair comparison.

lets take basketball for example. It was not created by nike. nike makes generic sized basketballs to play with. there are no legit leagues or tourneys where you must use nike only equipment (which to be honest, is sometimes not all that great anyhow). Unless it's some type of nike sponsored event...but whatever. Nike just happens to make very popular shoes that make playing basketball more comfortable. But if you want to play a regular game of basketball you need a 10' hoop and a basketball...preferably one that is aired up properly, of the standard size and weight.

Now if you want to play with a 5' hoop and a beach ball...sure. you go right ahead. but that's not really basketball, is it?


If you are you saying it's perfectly fine to use you're little green army men in a game of 40k. I'm respectfully disagreeing.

Now if you converted them into something that meets the same standards (ie, models have the same 'foot print' of the model they are representing, etc) then it gets sorta fuzzy. One thing i don't support is stifling creativity in conversion work. But where is the line at? is slapping a gun on a tonka truck good enough or does it need more work?

And I don't mean cheating in the since of 'one player is getting the advantage' i mean cheating someone out of a 40k game. cause, imho, I don't think you're playing 40k at that point...you're playing with green army men. Or a tonka trunk. Or with you're pet pug painted green to be a squigoth (which would be hilarious...but still not 40k).

But hey, if you want to play with your green army men, with your friends in your club house that is totally fine.

My point is this: If you're playing a GW game, use the right minis. This IS NOT basketball.

And yes, the reason people say things like the "inflammatory techniques" is because it's true. You are hurting GW by not using the mini's they sculpt and create for your purchase. You are hurting your local gaming store by not purchasing products from them so they can keep the doors open. And you are hurting the hobby by not spending the time to make your armies look and feel like 40k armies. If you don't like paying for mini's to play the hobby, get a new hobby. I hear basketball is fun.

Now, I really don't want to keep this going. I'm pretty sure you're set in your ways, and I'm set in mine. So I'll not try to convince you anymore. I think we've both said our piece.

thecactusman17
08-04-2009, 12:05 AM
If you feel cheated because your opponent didn't put a Gw model on the board, IT'S TIME TO STOP BUYING MODELS FOR A WHILE. You've clearly made bad financial decisions when you feel jealous about paying more for plastic army men.

No, I am neither joking nor trolling. I'm deadly serious.

crazyredpraetorian
08-04-2009, 12:36 AM
If you feel cheated because your opponent didn't put a Gw model on the board, IT'S TIME TO STOP BUYING MODELS FOR A WHILE. You've clearly made bad financial decisions when you feel jealous about paying more for plastic army men.

No, I am neither joking nor trolling. I'm deadly serious.


It's not about the money really and it's definitely NOT jealousy. Why would anyone be jealous of a bag of plastic figures that can be bought at any garage sale or dollar store? It's about the effort involved and the escapism of the game. I believe Adam was spot on in his arguments. So, I think if you're not into the hobby enough to atleast put forth the basic effort of having correct or highly converted non-GW/scratch built models then maybe you need to get another hobby. I hear shooting green army men with bb guns is a lot of fun.

Support your hobby and it will give you years of enjoyment. Support your local game stores and you will have a place to enjoy your hobby......The alternatives lead to a dead end hobby...and that is a FACT! I'm deadly serious.:D

A HUGE BLUNT
08-04-2009, 12:41 AM
It's a hobby, not an enlistment contract into the armed forces. Anyone can play with their plastic dolls anyway they want, just don't expect me to play with you.

Aldramelech
08-04-2009, 12:46 AM
It's a hobby, not an enlistment contract into the armed forces. Anyone can play with their plastic dolls anyway they want, just don't expect me to play with you.

Totally agree with that.

Its a free country (or so I'm told! lol) But if you want to play 40k with me turn up with a painted army of 40k figures.:D

thecactusman17
08-04-2009, 01:49 AM
I think that some people here have failed to grasp my meaning, so let me restate this in a clearer fashion:

You (and I, for that matter--all five of my Fantasy and 40k armies are 100% citadel productions) collect plastic and metal army men.

Or perhaps put another way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9XVEgNOHZE

My statement is thus: If you are playing an opponent with an army you don't wish to play against, in a casual game, then walk away. Better yet, don't even get out your models. But here's what I bet: that kid (usually a young child with little or no money) was really hoping to play with his friends and found that he could get a whole army much easier by picking up the little green army men than spending TWO HUNDRED ****ING DOLLARS to play with you. And THEN assembling between 40 and 100 models of ridiculous complexity, and then painting all of them to some unspecified standard.

But no, man. It's not GW standard. It isn't even painted right--why, he's got Ultramarines and Orks working together!

I have a recommendation: unless you are at a tournement, stop getting worked up over it. If you are going to get worked up over your opponent's plastic army men, find another hobby. There are enough *******s around already--why does there need to be even more at the FLGS?

The Headcrab
08-04-2009, 01:57 AM
Hey, If GW minis didn't cost an arm and a leg maybe 90% of the people would have an army like yours. But most of us don't have a very "disposable" income :) Especially in these economic times, one must be smart.

Aldramelech
08-04-2009, 02:06 AM
I play at a club where there are no children, Its in a pub, so the poverty stricken Oliver Twist please sir can I have some more argument cuts no ice with me! If that child plays with his mates in his bedroom and they enjoy themselves then more power to them, great!

If however an adult turned up at our club and tried to pull that they would find a distinct lack of opponents.

Its fine for the young people to start this way, but the whole point of a wargammes club is to promote the hobby and we do this by encouraging people to improve all aspects of the hobby. How can you expect to be taken seriously if you arnt going to make an effort.

If you are serious about your hobby, don't you want to do it properly? And if your not, why are you doing it?

Aldramelech
08-04-2009, 02:11 AM
Also, Isn't the collecting and painting of models over a period of time an important part of the hobby?

Do you think we all just go out and buy complete armies when we feel like it?

Are we not teaching values such as commitment, hard work and patience to new and young members of the hobby as opposed to "I WANT THAT NOW"?

Diagnosis Ninja
08-04-2009, 02:35 AM
Hmm... Cactus man... You seem to be getting more worked up than anyone else. You defending your barrel o' monkeys? The problem you're jumping at is the ideal of stupidly elitist players rejecting kids because they sprayed their marines with metallic green, or dipped their Tyranids in red emulsion (don't worry, I've seen both), but that isn't this. Look at it from any other point of view in gaming:

I'm playing Call of Duty, and you download a copy: Here, you're finding a way to pirate the game, so that you don't have to fork out the £35 it would be down at GAME. It's a lot less obvious here, but it is annoying that I wanted to play this, so out of respect for the company, my friends, and my opponent, I bought a copy, whereas you didn't. Seen as you didn't, you're probably gonna have less respect for it, and probably shout your mouth off about how 1337 you are.

I've bought a board game, and you're replicating it with Corn Flakes packaging: Here, you're going out of the way to save money again, but you're going to a ridiculous length. One, it's an inferior product, and two, you're probably not gonna get anyone to play with, seen as I have my copy over here. Pretty shabby huh? Especially when you put all that effort in. on the plus side, everyone will build up a reputation of you as a bit of a shady cheese ball. Wait, what?

As for the sports analogy, it's more like turning up to play Football with flip flops on, or Basket ball in a toga.

Now, in my eyes, if you're wanting to convert an entire army from a set of Army Men, then you better be damned ready to convert them all to the proper weaponry, and paint them all up, at least to be more that, green, or just sprayed black. Sure, I haven't got all of any of my armies finished, but that's due to coursework, and having other obligations which come before warhammer. I plan on finishing it all off. Whereas, on the other hand, if you spend like £3 for a set of ten army men, and can't even be bothered with them, your motivation will plummet, and you'll become a worse player.

It's not about disallowing people in from below a set standard, it's more ignoring them if they don't care.

And I don't play with the kids at the club, unless it's desperate measures :P

Asymmetrical Xeno
08-04-2009, 04:16 AM
Some of the attitudes towards counts-as armies disturb me in their zeal and forceful nature :confused: . I guess I can understand real cheapo crap like the army-men, but when all the bits come from mostly or entirely GW, I dont get what the problem is ??

Me and my gaming group actually spend way MORE money on GW than most when we build armies because we convert and counts-as everything. This is out of love of expanding the universe and creating unique armies.

For example my latest army is a small 500pt force of Aliens that look like flies which are chaotic/nurgle. The price for the 13 models comes to, get this : £248 pounds. They are to be a support force to our shared non-death-guard chaos marines. Also, my Krell/Enslaver army cost me so far about £100 for the first 1000pts, I plan to make it 3000pts in total, so that'll be about £300 quid going into Forge World's pocket...if you dont wanna play em cos they arent the same size/shape as Eldar jetbikes I guess thats your incentive, but id like to know what rules you'd think suit 15 converted Mietic Spores/spore mines ect.

As for non-GW stuff, I dont see the problem really...whats wrong with simple things like 1 or 2 non-GW models or Cadians all with non-GW heads to make them look like a different regiment ? it only diversifies and creates interesting armies IMO.. otherwise the hobby would of gotten painfully boring by now if all we saw were template armies (insert popular well known craftworld/ork klan/chapter/chaos legion ect here). At least for me, variety is the spice of life.

Diagnosis Ninja
08-04-2009, 04:52 AM
I have nothing wrong with actual mini's, its when people go to ridiculous lengths for counts as, like saying a Can of coke is a drop pod.I dunno, it just feels better when you have both came to a battle with an army you've slaved over. Everything gets more tense, and victory is about 7 or 8 degrees sweeter. Even more so against friends and rivals :P

Asymmetrical Xeno
08-04-2009, 05:10 AM
ah nevermind, im too blurry and dizzy today, ignore me :P

but I wouldnt mind the coke drop-pod if I got to drink it later :P

Diagnosis Ninja
08-04-2009, 05:12 AM
Only if you destroy it ;) Otherwise, it's coming back to base, lol.

Aldramelech
08-04-2009, 05:32 AM
Some of the attitudes towards counts-as armies disturb me in their zeal and forceful nature :confused: . I guess I can understand real cheapo crap like the army-men, but when all the bits come from mostly or entirely GW, I dont get what the problem is ??

Me and my gaming group actually spend way MORE money on GW than most when we build armies because we convert and counts-as everything. This is out of love of expanding the universe and creating unique armies.

For example my latest army is a small 500pt force of Aliens that look like flies which are chaotic/nurgle. The price for the 13 models comes to, get this : £248 pounds. They are to be a support force to our shared non-death-guard chaos marines. Also, my Krell/Enslaver army cost me so far about £100 for the first 1000pts, I plan to make it 3000pts in total, so that'll be about £300 quid going into Forge World's pocket...if you dont wanna play em cos they arent the same size/shape as Eldar jetbikes I guess thats your incentive, but id like to know what rules you'd think suit 15 converted Mietic Spores/spore mines ect.

As for non-GW stuff, I don't see the problem really...whats wrong with simple things like 1 or 2 non-GW models or Cadians all with non-GW heads to make them look like a different regiment ? it only diversifies and creates interesting armies IMO.. otherwise the hobby would of gotten painfully boring by now if all we saw were template armies (insert popular well known craftworld/ork klan/chapter/chaos legion ect here). At least for me, variety is the spice of life.


Now what your talking about is more then acceptable to my way of thinking. That takes time, lots of effort and to a lesser extent money. Bet it looks good too. What I'm against is people who cant be bothered to put in the work. My IG are all GW but alot has been converted for the sake of WYSIWYG and to make my army stand out. But it has been converted using GW parts, not easy endlessly trolling ebay for Plasma Pistols and Melta Bombs and not cheap either.

What I think most people have a problem with is someone who turns up with something that bears no resemblance to what it should be because their too lazy to paint, collect and model, and if thats the case why are they bothering? On a personal note I cant be doing with people who brought an alternative product out of spite because they don't like GW. If you dislike them that much play something else.

TSINI
08-04-2009, 05:36 AM
well it depends on what end of the scale we are talking about

swapping GW heads for heads from a different system isnt really changing the look of the game, it gives your minis character and makes them feel much more like your very own personal army which you are attached to and love to play games with. (all my conscripts are simply cadians with gas mask WWII heads from west wind productons, see them here (http://lucky88th.blogspot.com/2009/07/getting-there-conscripting-promotions.html))

the other end of the scale is the people who make minis from smarties tubes (i overexagerate insanely there, but you get the idea) ((or as you say, the green plastic army men)) for one, if the bases are not 25mm, then you've already skewed the game mechanic slightly.
but secondly and most importantly, if i buy a 3000 point GW army, and spend months converting the heads and armour, then painting them up, applying transfers and washing and inking in detail, then i'd like to see them on a nicely painted, terrain covered board against a similarly nicely painted army.

there is the middle ground though, for example UberKroot (http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26953) who makes some brilliant Fringe armies, by hacking apart models, re posing them and re-arming them, then using simple count as rules for the gameplay. but he doesit in a way thats not illegal because theyre all based on 25mm bases, they abide by the codex rules (in the case of that K'Nib army, they may look like spiders, but they "Count As" chaos space marines) as long as the opponent understands which unit is which its all fine. Mousemuffins on the otherhand, takes a different approach, scratch building models to count as units in his army. in the case of the steam-crons (http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67836&hl=mousemuffin) he has scratchbuilt a Tri-pod to count as a monolith, but because his whole army is victorian-esque, it works so well. his Knights Panther (http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=64691&hl=panther) are astonishing, the dreadnoughts are HUGE terminators, and his landraider, is a HUGE dreadnought. they have the right weapons, and are just simple count as models. they look amazing, in fact theres some really nice photos of the whole army here (http://www.mikesphotography.com.au/MiF_2009/index.html) (10th picture down)

so i think it's dificult to quantify what should be allowed at tournaments, simply because if you dissallow ALL non-GW models, you will miss out on some supremely fantastic armies. But a simple warning stating that Green-army men will not be tolerated should be a good indication...:)

Asymmetrical Xeno
08-04-2009, 05:59 AM
Now what your talking about is more then acceptable to my way of thinking. That takes time, lots of effort and to a lesser extent money. Bet it looks good too. What I'm against is people who cant be bothered to put in the work. My IG are all GW but alot has been converted for the sake of WYSIWYG and to make my army stand out. But it has been converted using GW parts, not easy endlessly trolling ebay for Plasma Pistols and Melta Bombs and not cheap either..


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210546&page=2

well, you can see my Krell/Enslavers there if you want. It took a long time to find an army-list to counts-as for them. But im more than open to constructive-crit on the rules used. Its really hard to find rules that work with giant killer cthulhu squids though :/



What I think most people have a problem with is someone who turns up with something that bears no resemblance to what it should be because their too lazy to paint, collect and model, and if thats the case why are they bothering? On a personal note I cant be doing with people who brought an alternative product out of spite because they don't like GW. If you dislike them that much play something else.

Ok, in that case I agree :D thanks for clarifying, im not the best at writing and explaining my thoughts so my sincerest appologies if you or any others felt I was being defensive/aggressive ect.

I rarely use other companies models in my GW armies, with the exception of 2 models for my 2000pt Tzeentch daemons. I love the horrors/screamers/flamers but strongly dislike the tzeentch greater daemon and Daemon prince models. Instead I used two RAFM models, the Flying polyp (greater daemon) cos I feel it represents change and works with the horrors/screamers/flamers imagery than the chicken model, and the daemon prince model is a RAFM Nyarlathotep model. Both the daemon prince and greater daemon have extra GW bits to show what they are/weapons ect... The rest of the army is are all entirely GW which includes 40 horrors, 10 screamers, 10 flamers, a soul grinder and a host of other stuff I havent painted yet. So for me it wasnt out of Spite, but more because I felt those two specific models just didnt fit with Tzeentch, or at least my vision of what I feel Tzeentch daemons are (lovecraftian kinda stuff).

---


TSINI,

I'm a HUGE fan of UberKroot's armies, and I also really loved Mousemuffins Steam-crons, both examples of the kind of armies I love to see. Truly works of art. I can only hope my stuff oneday looks even a third as good as theres :D

Ordsnik
08-04-2009, 06:24 AM
There's no such thing as the "GW" hobby.

There's a miniature gaming hobby, which predates GW by a long time-the oldest set of rules I know of for pitting toy army men against each other was written by HG Wells- but the separate "GW" hobby is a marketing invention. GW makes stuff for mini-gamers, really attractive minis and outstanding fluff and background materials and even some really decent rules, but they do not, by themselves, comprise the entire hobby. Pig Iron and so on are all part of the same hobby, and making your own stuff from odds and ends and plasticard and so on has always been an important part of it. You're "supporting the hobby" just as much by doing any of that as by buying GW.

More specifically, while I understand that (for example) Assault on Black Reach is priced to be a relatively cheap introduction to 40K, when I bought the box I wasn't buying a long term commitment to GW. I was just buying the rules to a game, and some minis to play the game with. I don't owe GW anything past that. When I buy GW minis to play 40K with, I'm buying them because they're nice minis, and I think they're worth the price GW is charging for them. I don't have any obligation to GW-legally or morally- to buy more of their minis to use the rules I've already paid for.

Please don't take me wrong-none of this is meant as a criticism of GW. I like their stuff, I buy their stuff, and I'm glad to support a company that's given me some pleasure in the past. Furthermore, I understand completely that in a GW store or a GW tournament they've got every right to insist that people use their products. But framing general use of GW stuff as a moral imperative is just falling into a marketing trap.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-04-2009, 07:16 AM
Well I would PREFER that they used GW models with the exception of a handful of special characters provided that they were converted for maximum aesthetic effect but IF the model looks like what it purports to represent and is modelled to a high level and not just 'I can't be bothered buying proper models nor modelling them' then I'm personally fine with it. I mean someone can scratch build a whole IG Tank army and that technically isn't using GW mini's but if he's done if because he prefers his own style and it is still intuitive, then why not?

Dannicus
08-04-2009, 06:37 PM
I have no problem using or having my opponent use non-GW models. In my opinion, if the player prefers the models, and the are reminiscent of what they are intended to represent than I have no issues. For example, I am working on a Zulu themed Imperial Guard army, and I will ensure that all of the infantry models are equipped with the correct Imperial Guard weapons.

Pinky Narfanek
08-04-2009, 07:38 PM
You're comparing generic sports games (games with regulation equipment, made by different manufactures, all for the purpose of playing the same game) to a hobby game. a table top miniatures hobby game. this is why it's not a fair comparison.

lets take basketball for example. It was not created by nike. nike makes generic sized basketballs to play with. there are no legit leagues or tourneys where you must use nike only equipment (which to be honest, is sometimes not all that great anyhow). Unless it's some type of nike sponsored event...but whatever. Nike just happens to make very popular shoes that make playing basketball more comfortable. But if you want to play a regular game of basketball you need a 10' hoop and a basketball...preferably one that is aired up properly, of the standard size and weight.

Now if you want to play with a 5' hoop and a beach ball...sure. you go right ahead. but that's not really basketball, is it?


If you are you saying it's perfectly fine to use you're little green army men in a game of 40k. I'm respectfully disagreeing.

Now if you converted them into something that meets the same standards (ie, models have the same 'foot print' of the model they are representing, etc) then it gets sorta fuzzy. One thing i don't support is stifling creativity in conversion work. But where is the line at? is slapping a gun on a tonka truck good enough or does it need more work?

And I don't mean cheating in the since of 'one player is getting the advantage' i mean cheating someone out of a 40k game. cause, imho, I don't think you're playing 40k at that point...you're playing with green army men. Or a tonka trunk. Or with you're pet pug painted green to be a squigoth (which would be hilarious...but still not 40k).

But hey, if you want to play with your green army men, with your friends in your club house that is totally fine.

My point is this: If you're playing a GW game, use the right minis. This IS NOT basketball.

And yes, the reason people say things like the "inflammatory techniques" is because it's true. You are hurting GW by not using the mini's they sculpt and create for your purchase. You are hurting your local gaming store by not purchasing products from them so they can keep the doors open. And you are hurting the hobby by not spending the time to make your armies look and feel like 40k armies. If you don't like paying for mini's to play the hobby, get a new hobby. I hear basketball is fun.

Now, I really don't want to keep this going. I'm pretty sure you're set in your ways, and I'm set in mine. So I'll not try to convince you anymore. I think we've both said our piece.
Inflammatory techniques are used to sway the argument away from the issue at hand by using words like "stealing", "cheating", etc. to elicit emotional (rather than intellectual) responses as people skim through the post. Dirty pool, old man. Dirty pool. The last thing you want is people to think about the process and make up their own minds. Were your disagreement with me respectful, you would have avoided the inflammatory comments and countered with your previous argument.

That's too bad, really. It was a [mostly] fitting argument.

And watch those "you"s you happen to be throwing around as if you knew me or knew thing one about my purchasing habits. Because you don't know one damned thing about me.

All my minis for GW games (three 40k armies--one woefully out of date) are GW produced, purchased locally (with a couple exceptions of a mail order or two and a purchase from out of state made two decades ago), and the GW store that I'm somehow "hurting" is eight hours away...

So long as individuals are broadcasting their elitist snobbery masqueraded as "concern for the hobby" and a general lack of (real) sportsmanship, I'll put my views out there as well. And maybe, just maybe, someone will give the new kid (young adult, spouse, or even retiree) the benefit of the doubt and let them get into the hobby at their own pace instead of being ridiculed for having an army of Star Wars Minis or a disgusting mass of unpainted plastic/lead/pewter.

This is about more than plastic and metal toys--it's about people as well.

Aldramelech
08-05-2009, 12:48 AM
If this was a pub, you'd both be stood up right about now an inch from each others noses lol

Aldramelech
08-05-2009, 02:35 AM
Here is something I picked up on Ebay, Part of a bunker and exactly Leaman Russ shape and size.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0207.jpg

The Plastic Surgeon
08-05-2009, 05:10 AM
Here is something I picked up on Ebay, Part of a bunker and exactly Leaman Russ shape and size.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0207.jpg

That's perfectly acceptable as a Punisher.

crazyredpraetorian
08-05-2009, 09:57 AM
I would say so.

veritechc
08-05-2009, 10:48 AM
Hi all,

This is my first post here so pardon me if I break some rules...

I play Chaos Daemons and I love the rules for the army but the models, lets just say leave something to be desired.

I take exception to the Plagebearer and Bloodthirster models in particular. I have replaced those with other models from two different companies.

Bloodthirster: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warlocks/thagrosh-the-messiah

Plaguebearers: http://www.heresyminiatures.com/hv043.htm

I know that I will have to buy some of the GW models if I want to play in a tournament but I dont really like them. The Bloodthirster looks like a bull with a colon problem and the Plaguebearers look like something off a cartoon.

I have also converted a "counts as" Keeper of Secrets" from a Eldar Wraithlord.

I do Love the plastic Daemonettes and Bloodletters and with a little conversion the Bloodcrushers are great. I have a crap ton of the Pink Horrors, and Some Flamers of Tzeench.

My point is the army is mine. I have taken the time to find the alternate models, convert the GW models I want to, buy the ones I like, base and paint them all. If I tell my opponent what counts as what way shouldn't I be able to use MY ARMY at a tournament?

I do understand GW's want to push their products only but hell they arent even doing the tournaments anymore. Why do the independents still have to follow their guidelines?

And if less then 50% of my army is non-GW what does that matter?

blueshift
08-05-2009, 11:06 AM
veritechc: those models are perfect... enjoy playing with models that don't cost a billion dollars each.

Drunkencorgimaster
08-05-2009, 11:37 AM
games workshop are far more about the buisness now than the hobby. they used to accept that they id not produce everything you need/want for your models and even included some pictures of other peoples converted kits in their books (WD compendium) but now they have an incredibly narrow view about the hobby and want to be completely separate from anything else anything like them.


I know I voted earlier for mostly GW models, but I have to agree with this post too. I personally use all GW stuff, but I also think their prices have gotten way out of line. Do you remember the so-called "oil price hike" two summers ago? Well, I did not see a reversal of that once the price of crude dropped that winter. Unfortunately nothing is going to make GW change their approach except competition. As much as I personally am opposed to it, maybe we should encourage more non-GW stuff?

It might also inspire creativity. Did not Rick Priestly himself build a hovercraft out of a deodorant package? What if there was a slot or two open to non-GW or scratch built stuff? As long as it was well-built? Would it kill the hobby?

Drunkencorgimaster
08-05-2009, 11:40 AM
In another tournament a guy with a white scars army was busy telling his opponents that "Yes, he has got a plasma pistol, it broke off" "Oh hes got a flamer, that broke off too" I would have walked off and let him win as winning is obviously that important to the guy.


So I am not the only one with a problem accepting a broken lascannon as a Daemon Prince?

BlackVise
08-05-2009, 08:33 PM
Hi all,

Bloodthirster: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/legion-of-everblight/warlocks/thagrosh-the-messiah

Plaguebearers: http://www.heresyminiatures.com/hv043.htm

I know that I will have to buy some of the GW models if I want to play in a tournament but I dont really like them. The Bloodthirster looks like a bull with a colon problem and the Plaguebearers look like something off a cartoon.



Hi there. I have no issue with your choices. I actually like the plague bearer choice you made. those look really cool. Consider that "looted" waaaagh.

Lord Anubis
08-05-2009, 09:42 PM
I think the thing that bothers me about the "GW-or-else" mentality is it makes it very, very difficult for anyone to start playing. They either have to make a huge cash investment in a game they know nothing about or a good portion of the playerbase will have nothing to do with them.

How does that encourage anyone to improve or keep playing?

To fall back on the popular sporting analogy, it's like having a World Series pitcher smack a Little League player in the head with a fastball and then berate him for not being good enough to play baseball.

Isn't it a lot more productive for "the hobby" to bring people into it and then encourage them to buy the models and put the work into building/ painting them? Yeah, heaven forbid, this guy didn't feel like dropping $200 for an army after he borrowed a friend's codex for a weekend. But he probably would after playing a game or three, getting to see everyone else's army, and having fun.

Does anyone really want this to be the hobby where people say "Well, I wanted to try it, but the players were all a bunch of $#&@s so I changed my mind..." ?

;)

crazyredpraetorian
08-05-2009, 10:18 PM
I think the thing that bothers me about the "GW-or-else" mentality is it makes it very, very difficult for anyone to start playing. They either have to make a huge cash investment in a game they know nothing about or a good portion of the playerbase will have nothing to do with them.

How does that encourage anyone to improve or keep playing?

To fall back on the popular sporting analogy, it's like having a World Series pitcher smack a Little League player in the head with a fastball and then berate him for not being good enough to play baseball.

Isn't it a lot more productive for "the hobby" to bring people into it and then encourage them to buy the models and put the work into building/ painting them? Yeah, heaven forbid, this guy didn't feel like dropping $200 for an army after he borrowed a friend's codex for a weekend. But he probably would after playing a game or three, getting to see everyone else's army, and having fun.

Does anyone really want this to be the hobby where people say "Well, I wanted to try it, but the players were all a bunch of $#&@s so I changed my mind..." ?

;)

Last week alone. I played 4 games with noobies. All had proper armies. They did vary in points. I played 2 500 pt games, 1 1600 pt game and 1 at 2000pts. I think alot of people forget that you don't HAVE to throw down 3500pts every game. I would rather play some one with 500 pts than to play a 2000pt game of proxies, match boxes, coke bottles and plastic army men. The world doesn't have to be about instant gratification and neither does 40K.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 01:12 AM
At the end of the day, it depends on common sense and reason. Nicer model finished to a good standard from another company for aesthetic and financial reasons (you don't have to say its cheaper as wel as better looking in your view! you DO have the right to silence! haha) and is reasonably intuitive as to what they are meant to represent are AOK, whereas Tonka truck battle wagons and coke can drop pods are a no no. Well if the coke cans had fins, opened up like a pod and painted with SM insignia then I would let that fly personally as that shows EFFORT and not everyone is fortunate enough to have the cash to spend to play a good game. As for army and modeling points? that gets a big fat zero. He'll be playing to show off his tactical prowess only and I think that is fair on people who do have the proper models, conversions, proper scratch builds.

That's my take :)

Aldramelech
08-06-2009, 01:24 AM
Last week alone. I played 4 games with noobies. All had proper armies. They did vary in points. I played 2 500 pt games, 1 1600 pt game and 1 at 2000pts. I think alot of people forget that you don't HAVE to throw down 3500pts every game. I would rather play some one with 500 pts than to play a 2000pt game of proxies, match boxes, coke bottles and plastic army men. The world doesn't have to be about instant gratification and neither does 40K.

Hear, Hear!

Lots of assuming hear about walking into a shop and buying a complete army. Isn't an important part of the hobby collecting? Kids love collecting and thats what makes it so popular to the younger audience.

I certainly have never walked into GW and brought a complete army in one go in my life, and never will.

Morgrim
08-06-2009, 03:20 AM
I have no objection to fitting non-GW models. Possibly because I favour the rule of cool over many other things, and because I'm already converting parts of my army heavily enough that I'm willing to use bits from other companies and places.

Example: I hate the GW warpbeasts. They look like newts that placed strip poker with a haemoculi. I am not going to use those models. However, I love the idea of warpbeasts, like the rules and fluff, and they fit perfectly with my army concept. So I'm going to use different models. When I'm running as a wych cult and have multiple units of the things, I'll probably use the WFB Chaos Hounds. But when I'm running kabal and have only one unit with my heavily converted beastmaster, I will (once I get them) want to use these Reaper minis: Hound of Judgement (http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/hound/latest/14215#detail/14215_HOJ_AF)

http://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/14215_HOJ_AF.jpg

I would also have no objections to someone using a model like the Vrock (http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/the-vrock.html) and counting it as a Lord of Change, or similar. Same reasons as above.

veritechc
08-06-2009, 04:50 PM
I have no objection to fitting non-GW models. Possibly because I favour the rule of cool over many other things, and because I'm already converting parts of my army heavily enough that I'm willing to use bits from other companies and places.

Example: I hate the GW warpbeasts. They look like newts that placed strip poker with a haemoculi. I am not going to use those models. However, I love the idea of warpbeasts, like the rules and fluff, and they fit perfectly with my army concept. So I'm going to use different models. When I'm running as a wych cult and have multiple units of the things, I'll probably use the WFB Chaos Hounds. But when I'm running kabal and have only one unit with my heavily converted beastmaster, I will (once I get them) want to use these Reaper minis: Hound of Judgement (http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/hound/latest/14215#detail/14215_HOJ_AF)

http://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/14215_HOJ_AF.jpg

I would also have no objections to someone using a model like the Vrock (http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/the-vrock.html) and counting it as a Lord of Change, or similar. Same reasons as above.

I love that model!

Digitarii
08-09-2009, 10:25 AM
IMO, if you are playing in a tournament, the 75% standard/3 colors/basing should be strictly enforced. In friendly games, the standard should be "The coke can is your monolith? Fine, hand me a beer..."

Pickup games should be a matter of recognizability. I don't know you from adam, so i'd better be able to identify the models in your army for what they are supposed to be by sight alone. Don't expect me to remember that your tonka truck Ork Battlefortress has a deffrolla if it isn't modeled on the truck. Also, I'd let someone use green army men. I would also take them apart with the true line of sight rule, since they are much taller than the GW models. "What, you want to use that wall for cover? Fine, let me get my laser pointer...Nope, I can get TLOS on every one of those models, What? Oh, no, you have to declare going to ground before now. Once I start my targeting, you're turn is past done."

I'm a big fan of the cool shiver I get from unholy glee in this situation...

Chris Copeland
08-10-2009, 07:43 AM
I say, "They're your minis... play how you want to play!" I especially like seeing a well painted and based non-standard mini in a game. It feels like a little surprise and adds extra enjoyment to the game.

Of course, if a tournament game calls for only GW minis then, at the tournament, play with only GW minis.

Chris


PS Reaper makes some great minis which have made their way into my collection as special characters.

Gavvin
08-10-2009, 12:56 PM
Back in the mid '90s, when I played WHFB with buddies on the Military base, we had a couple of players whose garages looked like gaming stores. Between them, they had every army for every game GW made, including the specialist games, with very few non-GW models.

When they had gotten me well and truly hooked on playing with thier armies, I started one of my own (Undead - Crunch all you want! We'll make more!) using GW models for a core and adding other minis as the mood struck me. Most of my Vampires were from Reaper, the old Grenadier Undead Mastadon stood in for a chariot and some 1-piece plastic skeletons with halbards (from a company I can't recall) fleshed out my troops.

It never really occured to me that I was doing anything questionable. Of course, I didn't play in tournaments, just with the small group of friends on the base. We also didn't have a FLGS nearby (Barstow, CA was nearest town and it was 30 miles away.), so I used what I could find.

Fast forward 12 years and now I have sons who got interested in the hobby. Of course, they wanted to play 40K instead of Fantasy, but I didn't copmplain. We own at least 2000 points of 6 different armies and play in our local GW store. While we have not played in any offical tournaments yet, it is something that we are planning on. Most of our armies have some scratch built or converted elements, but are recognizably GW-based.

I guess what I am saying in my long-winded, rambling way is that non-GW minis are perfectly acceptable under certain circumstances, so long as it is not terribly hard to figure out what they represent. In friendly games, I don't even mind blatant proxies if someone is testing a concept before committing money to it. I could care less if someone spent hundreds of dollars less than I did on my armies. I am simply happy to have an opponant.However, when it comes time to go to tournament, I don't want to spend precious time/brain power trying to figure out if that boxy thing is a Rhino or a Land Raider and the things that just piled out of it are Tac Marines or TH/SS Termies (It makes a differance!!).

Warbosssezhi
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
You finally finish meticulously painting and basing your entire 40K army and you're about to play your first "painted" game. You look across the table and your opponent starts putting a bunch of unfamiliar figures on the table. It turns out they aren't GW models. What do you think of playing 40K with non GW models?

Personally, I'd feel kind of cheated.

We have player that comes to our local store.... he drives 2 hours to play in tourneys.... but he uses paper drop pods and paper tanks!

Now I am all for wysiwyg, and converting for me is the most fun.... but paper?

I personally dont care if it was mdae by Tonka if it is wysiwyg...lets play. You do need to put a little effort in it though.

He did show up to an apoc game with a paper titan.

Chris Copeland
08-10-2009, 06:32 PM
Paper titan! Priceless! I have drop pods made out of PVC pipe. I made them during 4th edition when there was no plastic drop pod model. I am proud of my 5 scratch built drop pods!

Now I am constrained. Under 5th edition my drop pod army is no longer tournament legal. I intend to spend the next several months building plastic drop pods so that I am ready for whatever tourney comes my way.

It can be painful to go from sratchbuilt=A-OK to scratchbuilt=no longer legal...

Ah well. I haven't decided if I will attend BoLSCon. Jon (one of the Fly Lords of Terra) has assured me that if I do show up for BoLSCon my scratch built Drop Pods will be acceptable (he saw them in person at the Semi-Finals of 'Ard Boyz 40k).

Perhaps it wouldn't be bad if out hobby went back to a more "Rogue Trader" mindset about scratch-built models and let players' creative energies have free reign....

The Plastic Surgeon
08-10-2009, 11:10 PM
Well if the guy has to drive 2 hour each time to game, then I'd say that's EFFORT right there! He's spending all of his money on fuel too. Were they GOOD cardboard pieces?

Slaanesh
08-11-2009, 02:23 AM
Can't wait to see what Gw say's about the keeper of secrets i had sculpted out of green stuff.....

Think Super Model in Lingerie with 4 arms....the bottom two being crab claws, the top being normal but with a sword in one hand......(And yes its frilly!)

The Plastic Surgeon
08-11-2009, 05:10 AM
Pics or it doesn't exist Slaanesh! :p

imperialsavant
08-11-2009, 05:52 AM
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with using non-GW models in an army -- but only 1 or 2, perhaps as special characters/heroes/etc.

There's several cases where there's not an official model for a unit/character, or, the official model is less-than-stellar.

What you described, though, that's ridiculous. I hope you didn't see that in a tournament.

:rolleyes: Yes I agree!
The only non GW model I have used is a female enforcer from another model co. that I use as Shira Calpurnia as there was no suitable GW model available & the rest of her squad of Arbites are GW Necromunda Enforcers.

I really hate when someone fields a heap of models that look nothing like the GW model.:mad:

Chaos
08-11-2009, 06:39 AM
wow

Mystery.Shadow
08-11-2009, 10:56 PM
Awesome....

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-WarLordTitan.jpg

And yes, someone actually DID bring this to an Apocalypse Game.

Aldramelech
08-12-2009, 08:52 AM
O dear!

the_killer23
08-12-2009, 09:02 AM
...i'm kinda at a loss of words there.

crazyredpraetorian
08-12-2009, 09:07 AM
Just say it........THAT SUCKS!!!

Blowupologist
08-12-2009, 09:09 AM
Yeah that's about as bad as the time one of my friends used a Gundam model to make a Tau titan in an Apoc game.

My attitude about models is that as long as it looks good I really don't care what company made the model. It's much more important that the entire army look thematically appropriate. However it seems like a lot of players use alternative models out of laziness or as an attempt to cheat. If your battlewagon is a heavily kitbashed and painted Tonka truck that's fine (and awesome!), but if you still have the receipt from when you bought it the day before that's not cool.

L192837465
08-12-2009, 09:22 AM
Can't wait to see what Gw say's about the keeper of secrets i had sculpted out of green stuff.....

Think Super Model in Lingerie with 4 arms....the bottom two being crab claws, the top being normal but with a sword in one hand......(And yes its frilly!)

Pics or it didn't happen.

Pinky Narfanek
08-13-2009, 08:00 PM
If this was a pub, you'd both be stood up right about now an inch from each others noses lol
Naah--not even close.

I'm very pleasant when I've been drinking (which has saved bloody knuckles and noses). Somewhat less so when sober.

blueshift
08-14-2009, 04:53 PM
if this was a pub you'd all be in a corner stinking the place up

lol j/k

what were we talking about?

prophet665
08-15-2009, 06:00 PM
I thought I would throw my opinion out there. I would like to preface it by letting everyone know where I am coming from when I spout off.

I am in my mid thirties with a damn decent income. I have just started the 40K hobby. I have always been interested in it (I have been a geek since age 6, so no surprise there) but I just never had the opportunity. They finally opened a store near me and I was excited as hell.

I walked in to the official GW store and I was overwhelmed by the choices. I have since found out that my local store is relatively small compared to other GW stores. I choose to start with a Sisters army and was informed that all their models are pewter. I was not deterred until I saw the price. The prices are outrageous for a mass produced figure.

From everything I have read and having talked to the "beards", as the older players are called, GW has really been taken over by the bean counters. I hear stories about how player focused they use to be and I see the attitude that is being put forth by the company now and I never would have guessed they are one in the same.

I have no problem with GW making a profit, good for them! I want them to be around for a long, long time. I do have a problem with them taking advantage of people. They are quickly losing customer loyalty with their pricing and attitude. I would love to go back to the mid to late 90's and see posts in the newsgroups forums concerning GW. I am willing to bet that they were infinitely more positive in tone and content. I think it is a shame that it has come to this for GW.

In talking with my local GW employees, it seems that GW's strategy is to get the players involved at a younger age, thus having the new stores open near a cluster of close high schools. Where in the world do they think the kids are going to get the money to field a 1000 point army, much less a tournament legal 1850? There may be a few kids that have parents that are willing to pay $700 to $1000 for their kids to play a game, but I sure as hell wouldn't.

I guess my overall feeling is that GW has lost focus. I am hoping the people I play against make up for the lack of "fuzzy feeling goodness" from GW. I would hate to think I have spent a couple hundred dollars so far (!!!) plus countless hours of painting (at which I am absolutely horrible) for a hobby and a game I will just put away because it isn;t fun anymore.

crazyredpraetorian
08-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Okay, now that the obligatory anti-GW rant is over....how do you feel about playing with non-GW minis?

BTW, people don't like price increases. They tend to blame the company rather than blame the economy. In 1992 a loaded Ford Mustang GT had a sticker price of $17,000 and change. A 2010 Mustang GT is now in the $32,000 range. Prices rise that is a fact of life just like death and taxes. End of "Pro-GW" rant.

prophet665
08-15-2009, 07:27 PM
I guess my message got lost in there. It is not an anti-GW rant, it was a return-to-the-customer rant which is a tangent to the attitude I have recently seen with non-GW minis. I want to make one thing very clear: I want GW to be around and make money. I don't mind bending over backwards to support GW, I don't want to bend over forwards though.

If someone is using a mini that can be instantly recognized or easily recognized once you have been informed of what it is a stand in for, then what is the problem? If someone has more time than money and makes a damn good, hell, even passable Land Raider conversion then why would I be upset because his little molded plastic came from a different company?

Now, if they are using a cereal box that still says Captain Crunch with a stick glued to the top, then we have a problem.

**Edit** What were the prices for a few units back in 2000? I would like to do a little comparison to the prices now.

crazyredpraetorian
08-15-2009, 07:47 PM
Fair enough. I agree with all of that. As long as it is recognizable and to scale.

10 years ago an Independent Character was $9.99- $12.99; today that same mini is $19.99-$24.99

drummerholt1234
08-15-2009, 07:49 PM
I have a question what about models from a company like ultraforge in a tournament?

crazyredpraetorian
08-15-2009, 07:53 PM
I have a question what about models from a company like ultraforge in a tournament?

It varies from tournament to tournament. Alswys check with the tournament organizer before bringing non-GW models. It can save you alot of grief. If the organizer okays it ahead of time then you don't have to worry about anyone protesting you.

drummerholt1234
08-15-2009, 08:41 PM
Yeah thats what I thought because I think those Greater daemons from ultraforge are just beautiful (or horrid looking in nurgles case ;) ).

bartschy
08-15-2009, 09:17 PM
Hi,

Ok back to the non GW models.

For me it doesn't matter as long as it is easy to understand what I am facing and it is reasonable estetic, no cokebottle for a land raider, or papermarkers ....

The key to sfun is ho wesy it is to understand what the model is.

If somebody comes decides his starwars minis are guardsmen and darth vader is the commisar I can follow that.

If I have to guess which of the wired slightly differnt looking guys has the meltagun and it is a meltagun on squad A and a plasma gun on squad B while the all kinda look the same we are having a problem and will stop having fun.

Just think is it crystal clear to remember what he is, and does it not keep us from having fun.

One of my friends is using a bunch of domkeys with lascannons as heavy weapon teams and a model of stich for his Guardsman marbo.

i think it is just funny and it is easy to follow that the guy popping up out of nowhere is Marbo since no other model in the game does anything like that.

Morgrim
08-15-2009, 09:36 PM
Somewhat random note: I have now been convinced that cool origami dragons made from odd shimmering paper are perfectly acceptable daemon princes, especially when they are the right scale. I don't care if it was a 'paper proxy', that thing was awesome.

Granted, not a tournament legal model, but for a massive friendly apoc match at the local GW store, it was fine. And one of the most fitting Tzeench prices I've seen.

Inquisitor Lord Haestus
08-15-2009, 10:18 PM
I actually was thinking of using a Modern Leopard Anti Aircraft tank as an IG Hydra/ even though the scale of the guns is off a bit, still would look cool as a model

Aldramelech
08-16-2009, 12:51 AM
I actually was thinking of using a Modern Leopard Anti Aircraft tank as an IG Hydra/ even though the scale of the guns is off a bit, still would look cool as a model

Thats a Gepard and it only has two guns. Why not try a ZSU23/4?

mchawkeye
08-16-2009, 03:31 AM
For my part.

I come to this hobby as a modelmaker first and a game-player second. consequently I value ingenuity nd creativity above anything else. so long as it looks like you are trying to do something, attempting something different, that's fine by me. I don't care where you miniatures come from; there are so many beautifully sculpted figures out there that it seems almost insulting to ignore them. as far as tanks go, well I use M113's in my Imperial Fist army. The odd icon here and there and, once painted yellow, they look the dogs.
I played against my 12 year old nephew and his pesky Necrons; his monolith was a massively out of scale paper representation. But he was 12, therefore lacks the income to afford GW (that's a whole 'nother rant there, by the by) in any big way and had at least tried to make a proxy.

Looking (very quickly, I admit) over this thread I was slightly depressed to read the number of opinions of "if it ain't GW I don't want to know". The fact is the GW is expensive. The fact is that there are loads of other miniatures out there (or scratchbuilt) that can be used appropriately. Any of these reasons are good enough in my book.

So long as you have fun playing the game or making the models, who cares?

CrusherJoe
08-16-2009, 07:28 AM
I'm going to have to modify my earlier stance (er....I think).

Basically, I don't think I have a problem with non-GW models, so long as whatever is used actually looks appropriate -- or, for example, if you're doing some list testing/bashing with proxies before committing to model purchase/build-out. I've come to the conclusion that the majority of the time you're going to use GW's models -- it being their game and all -- but there's going to be times when OPM (Other People's Minis) are perfectly suitable.

Of course, all this pertains to friendly/pick-up gaming.

When you're playing in a tournament, there's usually some kind of "no non-GW models" rules if an official GW model exists (though there may be some allowances made for conversions, older models, counts-as, etc.). Our FLGS runs a 40K, WFB and LotR tournament every month (yep, 3 weekends out of the month are tournament-time here in Austin) and they DO have a "no non-GW models" rule as I discussed above.

But every tournament is free, with prize support...so yeah, the definitely have a vested interest in having that rule to both sell more product (it IS their line of work you know) AND keep in GW's good graces (at least I'm pretty sure that's part of it). But the rules are clearly spelled out in rules packets/FAQs that are on the store's website, so it's not like its a surprise...plus, at least where converted minis are concerned, they're more than reasonable on what they allow.

So why have I said (maybe even re-said some things) all this?

Because I don't want to be a hypocrite...


...and I found the absolute perfect mini to use for my Callidus Assassin...


...and it's not made by GW. Ooops. :)

Hey at least I'm coming clean about it, right? :) :) :)

Mystery.Shadow
08-16-2009, 09:48 AM
Ok, what do you think about these Non-GW Models/Scratch Builds/Counts-As ?


Such as this Harridan:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/EntireHiveFleet/11060011.JPG.html

Or this Trygon:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/01011042.jpg

Or this Warlord Titan:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-WarLordTitan.jpg

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/AnotherApocalypseGame/01011054.JPG.html

Or this Ork BattleWagon:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/19kApocalypse/10040003.JPG.html

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/006.jpg

Or this Dark Angels Thunderhawk:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-ThunderhawkWIP17.jpg

So, what's everyone's opinions of those? Go ahead, let um fly!!

Da Blak Gobbo
08-16-2009, 01:03 PM
Hmm i would have to say that it depends upon the type of game:

Fun/pick up game: than anything goes, these are about fun and i'm very lenient with what anyone brings. All a person has to do is explain what something is and i'm ok. Start cheating and we have a problem.

Campaign/organized play/league: the swap must be somewhat appropriate and logical, reaper model that fits fine or uses other bits go right a ahead, soda can dred...no.

Tourney: Forget it, we have the standard models and you should to.

jspyd3rx
08-16-2009, 05:07 PM
I use this conversion as my gold level necron lord
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/252699.page

Valdore
08-16-2009, 05:40 PM
Ok, what do you think about these Non-GW Models/Scratch Builds/Counts-As ?


Such as this Harridan:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/EntireHiveFleet/11060011.JPG.html

Or this Trygon:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/01011042.jpg

Or this Warlord Titan:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-WarLordTitan.jpg

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/AnotherApocalypseGame/01011054.JPG.html

Or this Ork BattleWagon:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/19kApocalypse/10040003.JPG.html

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/006.jpg

Or this Dark Angels Thunderhawk:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-ThunderhawkWIP17.jpg

So, what's everyone's opinions of those? Go ahead, let um fly!!

Ok, the Harridan I would probably allow, it looks awesome enough to be allowed on the table, and looks like it could pass for the real thing

The Trygon would be a bit more difficult, awesome model, so I'd probably let it in, it's certainly big enough, but I would be more likely to let it in if it fitted with their army, so if they had some fluff, however basic, about why it's mutated into that form.

The Warlord I probably wouldn't unless I knew it was in progress and would actually be worked on and showed progress, but that's probably just personal preference.

The first fighta-bomma, awesome conversion, and if it looked like it could hold bombs etc. (payload doors or something) I would allow it, they're orks after all ;)

Battlewagon, I would probably allow it for the awesome factor, though I might suggest they think about tracks rather than legs ;) But as above, if it is wysiwyg, I don't see a problem for orks, again, fluff would be nice with it

Second fighta-bomma, similar to the warlord, if it was showing progress of being worked on, and if it fit on the table without causing problems my opinion would be let it on, that sort of a conversion is just too awesome to be turned down!

Thunderhawk, looks pretty good, and might be roughly to scale, personally I would prefer more detail, but I don't think that would stop me saying yes to it! So long as it is roughly correct scale-wise.

As to the sort of things I wouldn't allow, I have seen someone plonk a cardboard box on a table saying it's a land-train . . . that was in a GW store and he nearly got banned (not just because of that, but it was nearly the proverbial straw) And as mentioned above, if someone came with a model that was part way finished like the Warlord, and didn't show any progress for long enough I would start to have second thoughts on letting it be used, if only as an incentive for them to try and finish such an awesome model ;)


@jspyd3rx: Those necrons are awesome, I love the WIP of the nightbringer, much more dynamic and fearsome than the standard pose ;)

Phoenikuz
08-16-2009, 07:11 PM
Personally, I wouldn't care one jolt when it came to using non-GW miniatures in a game of Wh40k.

However, I also personally think that the only place you would actually have a use for non-GW miniatures are for vehicles and for the Imperial Guard. I mean, the Guard consists of a billion different regiments, each with a somewhat unique theme. So why not allow for some snazzy conversions by using other manufacturers miniatures to represent that?

That said; then I'm not much for facing plastic toys, origami armies, pebble armies, armies of cardboard cut-outs, etc. etc. As long as I'm facing either a plastic or pewter miniature army, then I don't care much. Hate to stifle creativity in that fashion after all :)

Straha
08-16-2009, 07:42 PM
Check this out.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv58/gundamrx79/Picture227.jpg

Actually, they kind of look good. I think they need more GW bits and bobs such as searchlights, a PMSB, and such, but they look OK. Also, some plasticard uparmor would really help.

Mystery.Shadow
08-17-2009, 07:42 AM
Guess everyone would hate PaperHammer 40k !

http://www.goldenboltersociety.com/paperhammer40k

Tee hee hee.

L192837465
08-19-2009, 01:08 PM
My opinion: I don't give a flying rats *** what they use as long as it's distinguishable. A single droppod in the army proxied by a gatorade bottle is fine. 8 gatorade bottles representing 8 different things is confusing.

Skragger
08-24-2009, 03:03 PM
In our gaming group we actually encourage the use of non-gw minis as it gives an army a totally new and different look, as long as certain guidelines are met:
1) Scale, the scale must be the same as GW's, looking at those Praetorian's it looks like they're rather small and when using real LOS rules, having an army of midgets is just unfair.
2) The model be easily recognized for what its for (but not necessarily wysiwyg)

Its an expensive hobby, and people need to be prepared for that, if you're strapped for cash (aka have a girlfriend) then others will recognize that and let you proxy, that doesn't mean you should cheap your way out of supporting GW, afterall, if everyone made green army men armies then GW wouldn't make any revenue and the entire hobby would collapse.

Valkerie
08-28-2009, 02:08 PM
Much like I don't see an issue with playing against partially painted or even unpainted armies, I don't really have a problem with playing against non-GW models. There are some fantastic models out there form other companies and honestly, I don't see a good reason to exclude them from a game. Now, this is also contingent on my being able to tell things apart and the like. If it's going to confuse the daylights out of things, then somebody needs to bust out the post it notes or something.

In terms of what's allowed in individual tourneys and stores, well, that's up to the organizers and owners. It's their prerogative to place specs on exactly what folks can bring in.


I see these topics pop up pretty frequently, and I've got to say that it saddens me a great deal. Hell, it even makes me mad.

Think about this: How would you like it if your kids weren't allowed to play sports at the local playground because their equipment was Bauer or Majestic instead of Nike or Reebok? Or because their "uniforms" were kids in the same color t-shirts instead of custom printed/sewn jerseys? Or because the equipment was second hand or mis-matched?

Amen to this, bro. When I first started, I couldn't afford much GW stuff, especially the tanks. I dug out old WW II tank models I had. I proxied the battle cannon from some palstic tubing, stuck some GW heavy bolters and lascannon on them, gave it a paint job and called it good. I make sure mu opponent knows what they are, and usually they ask if that is a Leman Russ before I can tell them. I can afford the GW stuff now, but I still like to take my first tanks for old times sakes.

eldargal
08-28-2009, 10:23 PM
Proxying yes, a whole non GW army, no. The sports analogy just doesn't really work by the way.
I've not found many non-GW models I like enough to use personally.

Mystery.Shadow
08-28-2009, 11:13 PM
I still stick to my original post. If I can recognize the model it's supposed to represent, I'll allow it.

Green Army men supposed to be Imperial Guardsmen? Ok, sure.
They're supposed to be Eldar?! Sorry, no.

crazyredpraetorian
08-28-2009, 11:18 PM
Proxying yes, a whole non GW army, no. The sports analogy just doesn't really work by the way.
I've not found many non-GW models I like enough to use personally.

I agree 100% with your first statement. However, last night I played against a Nurgle army that had some really nice "counts as" models that were painted beautifully and were spot on for his theme. There are some great non-GW models out there. Although, finding the proper scale is tough.

eldargal
08-28-2009, 11:38 PM
Well, I (mostly) play Eldar and I've never seen any non-GW models I would want to use. It is a personal thing in this case. To be honest I can see the point with chaos, with all those mutations and whatnot it would be impossible for GW to produce a model for every eventuality. But for Eldar or Space Marines I would stick to converting. I want to point out I'm just expressing my views and I've got no problem with other people having non-GW mdels if there opponents and group are ok with it.


I agree 100% with your first statement. However, last night I played against a Nurgle army that had some really nice "counts as" models that were painted beautifully and were spot on for his theme. There are some great non-GW models out there. Although, finding the proper scale is tough.

prophet665
08-29-2009, 10:34 AM
Maybe I missed this in an earlier post, but why are Forge World models allowed in games that must be GW models only?

Aldramelech
08-29-2009, 11:27 AM
Forgeworld ARE Games workshop!

I really dont understand where this fantasy that their not comes from.

Games workshop own Forgeworld, they are based in the same place, they ARE the same company.

Mystery.Shadow
08-29-2009, 12:02 PM
Maybe I missed this in an earlier post, but why are Forge World models allowed in games that must be GW models only?

Because Forge World IS Games Workshop.

The same reason you can bring a Lexus to a Toyota Event.

prophet665
08-29-2009, 01:13 PM
I didn't know that Forge World was a sub division of GW.

http://thegurglingcod.typepad.com/thegurglingcod/images/2008/02/12/the_more_you_know2.jpg

Aldramelech
08-29-2009, 01:29 PM
You do now:p

Mystery.Shadow
08-29-2009, 10:06 PM
I didn't know that Forge World was a sub division of GW.

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

prophet665
08-29-2009, 10:59 PM
And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

YO JOE!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Gung-Ho.gif



I can do 80's stuff all day long.

Inquisitor Hate Machine
08-29-2009, 11:22 PM
And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

The other half is violence.

Exitus Acta Probat
08-29-2009, 11:41 PM
Last couple of posts and I nearly pee'd myself...
and felt old, recognizing that crap... :(

Seriously though,
I get (from the earlier pages in the post) the whole 'don't be a GW ****' feel, but it is more than just being TFG...it's about paying your dues AND supporting your store.

We're all gamers, and we all have our 'budgets'...I've been laid off, and I know that more than anyone. But to play cheap knock offs, and Lord it in your FLGS that is making space for YOU to play...(or your GW store) while they're trying to sell it up front? C'mon...you don't see ANY issue here?
Or playing across from someone that did make the effort, and you slapped a plasma gun on a cheap plastic crap piece? or a smoke launcher on a cheaper one? This is not something to 'win' about, this is something to say 'I'm a cheap basta#d' about.

I told someone in my store today "hey, you were talking about starting a new army...if you consider orks, lemme know and we can split a black reach box"...and the guy he was getting ready to play against (with MOSTLY GW models) jumped in with "if you want orks, I have over 100 of em I'll sell you for $1 apiece".
Now, this guy runs around and doesn't flinch...in the back of my LGS...saying things like this to people, talking about cheap replacement options...how to NOT spend money...and what replacements for certain things to use. He doesn't get it. His armies look like arse, and he undermines the store AND other people around him.

This is typical of MOST (not all...don't have a cow if this doesn't apply to you) people who don't care about the hobby...which is what this is about.
If you don't want to play with the 'real' models, why not play something else? Play AT-43...you don't have to paint, and the game's actually kinda cool...there are other options out there too.

Now, there are optional things too...companies that produce options (pig iron I believe is one of them)...but guess what. You can support your FLGS with those too, ordering them there. You have to put forth effort there too, for the hobby.

Grabnutz
08-30-2009, 01:16 AM
I've pretty much ignored most of this thread but young Exitus' last comments have finally pulled me off the fence.

I understand those who feel a great loyalty to GW, and those who've known nothing else, however they are not the only kids on the block. Getting all righteous on people who choose to include figures from other manufacturers in their armies is simply being an ignorant prat.

We play wargames for fun, for fellowship and because we love collecting, painting and presenting our miniatures. We do not play it to support a single brand. We are not part of GW's marketing and legal divisions.

I was in the queue in Dalling Road when Ian and Steve opened their first GW store. I remember the awe of having a place where all the then extant manufacturers and publishers were represented, it was like visiting Santa's workshop. I have watched GW and Citadel mature into a solid corporate organization, with all the trappings of such, and admired the fact that they kept the hobby at the core of it. They could so easily have become Mattel of Hasbro.

I regretted the day White Dwarf and Citadel closed their doors to all the other manufacturers and publishers and do wonder if the hobby would have benefited from them not turning in on themselves. But they did and there's no point in crying over it.

I also understand when they say that only GW miniatures are used at their tournaments and in their stores. They are, after all, organising and funding these events and places. But the majority of us, if truth were to be told, don't play in GW stores or take part in official tournaments. Most of us play with friends, in local clubs or in the back rooms of independent games stores.

I do not see why there is all this all the sound and fury about non-GW miniatures being used in such games, as long as they fulfil the basic WYSIWYG custom??? As for people using non-GW models being cheaparses I have seldom heard such a load of baloney. In every wargames sub-genre, not just Warhammer 40K, and in every game and club there will be people who buy cheap and field barely undercoated armies.

Does it really matter if my Lost and the Damned cultists are Pig Iron? They are painted to a reasonable standard, properly based and, I can assure you, a lot more costly than plastic guardsmen. They also look the part whereas a Cadian guardsman with a chaos symbol daubed on his shoulder pad doesn't.

Does it matter that I may have found sculptors as good as GW's, and in quite a few cases considerably better, and choose to pay for these and use them in my W40K games? After all they are WYSIWYG and add variety to my armies.

Perhaps some GW hobbyists here need to get out more and realise that there is life outside GW?

Exitus Acta Probat
08-30-2009, 01:29 AM
Now, there are optional things too...companies that produce options (pig iron I believe is one of them)...but guess what. You can support your FLGS with those too, ordering them there. You have to put forth effort there too, for the hobby.

Grabnutz:

actually, I pointed out pig iron too. You can support your local hobby shop with such materials, and shop there/order there with pig iron (et al). No problem with that stuff.
There is a mentality that goes with people who do the 'green army men' thing all the time. MOST, not all (which I believe I did say in my post as well) do not care if the place they play in makes dime one off them ever again (or ever if it's a new place to them) and won't hesitate to tell joe blow how to 'take it to the man' so they don't either. No consideration for the impact that this will have one where their hobby is played.

I know this mentality doesn't fly very far across the pond, but over here in the US we don't have the basement/pub clubs and so forth, we rely on the stores to provide us a place to play. Yes, we provide them with a customer base...but frankly it's a helluva alot cheaper to set up 30 players worth of poke-yugi-dragonruto-z tables than 12 players worth of GW space.

Again, not all...and alternatives that support the hobby are great...they SUPPORT it. but little green army men with a plasma gun or plastic hollow crap tanks?? c'mon, it makes you look like a git (or an ork)... :)

(and wow, good gawd, did I use the word 'option' waaaay too many times in that first rant...har)

eldargal
08-30-2009, 01:52 AM
I think it depends why you're doing it. If you are using other brands to add variety and such to your armies, fine. But if you are just choosing others because they are cheaper, that is bad. It is worth remembering that 40k is a GW game, the models are made for it, others may be made to be compatible but they are still seperate. (another issue entirely is the people who buy off eBay t hinking they are hurting GW, when all they are doing is hurting their local store, GW or independent. You do realise that someone has already paid GW for that, right?)
Personally, if I come to a battle with my army I've spent quite a lot of money on and many, many many more hours painting and basing and the other side is using an army of cheap models from some other company I'm going to be more than a little offended. If they are using other brands to help convert and add variety, I wouldn't be.

Bottom line, 40k (and WFB) are Games Workshop games, and they produce the models for them.

Aldramelech
08-30-2009, 02:41 AM
I think it depends why you're doing it. If you are using other brands to add variety and such to your armies, fine. But if you are just choosing others because they are cheaper, that is bad. It is worth remembering that 40k is a GW game, the models are made for it, others may be made to be compatible but they are still seperate. (another issue entirely is the people who buy off eBay t hinking they are hurting GW, when all they are doing is hurting their local store, GW or independent. You do realise that someone has already paid GW for that, right?)
Personally, if I come to a battle with my army I've spent quite a lot of money on and many, many many more hours painting and basing and the other side is using an army of cheap models from some other company I'm going to be more than a little offended. If they are using other brands to help convert and add variety, I wouldn't be.

Bottom line, 40k (and WFB) are Games Workshop games, and they produce the models for them.

Yep, agree with all of that.

On the Ebay question Id say I buy there purely because I'm not a rich man, and why pay more?
My local GW make plenty out of me in paint, brushes, glue, spray, books, and the stuff I cant get on Ebay.

ColCorbane
08-30-2009, 04:43 AM
Bottom line, 40k (and WFB) are Games Workshop games, and they produce the models for them.

It doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to use their miniatures to pay a rule set they created, and if more hobbyists did look outside the GW sphere for models, it might force GW to rethink their pricing policy due to market forces.

From my experience, it's the dedicated hobbyist who seeks outside the GW sphere for alternative models. It's rare to find non-gw models that arn't painted, whereas you'll see loads of unpainted GW armies.

For me, I'd be delighted to see a completely alternative army on the table, instead of grey marines.

eldargal
08-30-2009, 04:59 AM
Oh, I've got no problem with people buying things on eBay if they want something cheaper (and god knows I can understand that). What mystifies me is when someone says "I buy my models on eBay and from clearances to deprive GW of profits!" when the very fact that someone other than GW is selling the damn things means GW hs already got their share.



Yep, agree with all of that.

On the Ebay question Id say I buy there purely because I'm not a rich man, and why pay more?
My local GW make plenty out of me in paint, brushes, glue, spray, books, and the stuff I cant get on Ebay.

You are not obliged to do anything re this hobby, but if you are going to use a completely alternative army why on earth are you playing 40k? It mystifies me.

QUOTE=ColCorbane;12174]It doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to use their miniatures to pay a rule set they created, and if more hobbyists did look outside the GW sphere for models, it might force GW to rethink their pricing policy due to market forces.

From my experience, it's the dedicated hobbyist who seeks outside the GW sphere for alternative models. It's rare to find non-gw models that arn't painted, whereas you'll see loads of unpainted GW armies.

For me, I'd be delighted to see a completely alternative army on the table, instead of grey marines.[/QUOTE]

Aldramelech
08-30-2009, 05:06 AM
Oh, I've got no problem with people buying things on eBay if they want something cheaper (and god knows I can understand that). What mystifies me is when someone says "I buy my models on eBay and from clearances to deprive GW of profits!" when the very fact that someone other than GW is selling the damn things means GW hs already got their share.

Some people are not very bright! :)

ColCorbane
08-30-2009, 05:07 AM
You are not obliged to do anything re this hobby, but if you are going to use a completely alternative army why on earth are you playing 40k? It mystifies me.

Well, first, because I love the ruleset, it's a fast paced mobile game that relatively easy to play.

Secondly, the 40k background give me lots of opportunity to explore races that gw doesn't support. Even gw says that the amount of guard variants are huge, well beyond their supported range. I don't see why I should restrict myself to a few different types of army given all the variety in the background.

I'm currently putting together an idea for a blob army based on the necron codex, as long as I make it clear what everything is, it won't be a problem for people to play against and it'll be something different.

Grabnutz
08-30-2009, 07:28 AM
Hi Exitus,

Yup, you caught some of the flak that was really aimed at the real GW ****'s in the last 18 pages. Sorry about that. Anyhoo I can see what you mean about the prat in the LGS abusing the facilities while trying to undercut the store.

I have got a bit piddled off in the last few years with the GW ****'s. Like many more creative and less cash endowed (married, three kids, mortgage and a variable income) guys I have taken to scratchbuilding many of the more expensive pieces, vehicles especially. I began with Orks for Waagh! Grabnutz - trukks, battlewagon and dethkopta's. I'm now using plans from friends on the interweb and building Chaos Rhinos and a Vindicator.

In years past scratchbuilding was looked upon beneficiently by GW and you could turn up to official games events with them in your army no problem. Now GW have mastered plastic moulding I understand that scratchbuilds are 'illegal'. Some of my friends scratchbuilding blogs have been kicked into touch by GW's lawyers, after being 'ratted out' by GW Fanatics. You buy GW kits and bits or don't even think of taking part.

This is driving mature players away from GW with many going to AT-43 and SGII, and even to free rule sets like my own Forge of War [very cheap plug]. I think GW and its fanatical followers need to sit back and take stock of what they are achieving with this. This hobby is entirely voluntary, we actually pay to take part. If they carry on with the bully-boy attitude they will soon find themselves alone in their playground.

Aldramelech
08-30-2009, 08:38 AM
I am Married, have a child and dont earn a huge amount of money, but I still buy GW to play GW. I dont mind conversions, I dont mind the occasional non GW replacement but if you field an entire non GW army you are not playing GW with me.

I take great offence to being labled a '****' as well!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Note to BOLS: How about some moderation here!

Exitus Acta Probat
08-30-2009, 11:05 AM
Grab:
I know, I understood the reaction. I was just a store proprietor for a long time, and I have seen too many people (in other establishements as well as my own) have a disdain for the shop bordering on spite...as though they/we were responsible for the inanity that can be GW...lol
And yes, GW deserves some disdain, but ultimately they do make the best toy soldiers out there!
:)

Ald:
Sorry, I started the 'GW N#zi' comment in my post. I've actually been trying to get into the habit of saying 'fascists' instead. Grab was just responding to mine in kind. Flog me, not teh 'nutz'! :)

Grabnutz
08-30-2009, 11:55 AM
I am Married, have a child and dont earn a huge amount of money, but I still buy GW to play GW. I dont mind conversions, I dont mind the occasional non GW replacement but if you field an entire non GW army you are not playing GW with me.

So if I field my Alternative Armies Wood Elf Army, an army that is completely WYSIWYG with Warhammer Fantasy Battles requirements, you would stick your nose in the air and declare me 'excommunicatus', and 'a damned heretic'? Do you realize just how ridiculous that stance is? I expect ten year old boys to get sniffy when a friend turns up to a kickabout in the shirt of a team they don't like but not grown-ups.


I take great offence to being labled a '****' as well!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Note to BOLS: How about some moderation here!

When you feel offended consider why you feel offended, rather than striking at the offender. That you are offended often says a lot more about you that those who offended you.

At the end of the day you are either bigger than those who offended you and can rise above it whilst appreciating the wonderful right of free speech we all enjoy. Or you are less than those that offended you. In this state then you can wallow in your own self-pity and sense of persecution. May this give you some comfort.

Personally I think that the term "GW Fascist" is quite appropriate for some people here. Think about it. They are willing to snub people who may have perfectly good armies, with well-painted and appropriate figures, simply because they have not bought their stuff from Games Workshop. They are willing to ignore the fact that this is a hobby we do for fun and would rather promote and enforce the will of a Corporation which considers them to be consumers, not members.

Ithink that says it all. If the truth gets me thrown out of here well I'll go quietly.

Old_Paladin
08-30-2009, 12:24 PM
Not to go off on a rant, but...
If you showed up with Wood Elves on square bases for our game of 40K, I'd give you the finger and tell you off for wasting my time. (and I do like fantasy too, but the two systems don't work together).
This would be no better then a total proxy army. What are you playing? Tau? Eldar? Guard? What are the glade guard, eternal warriors, waywatchers and dancers? And the the heck did you do it? To get an unfair advantage, because no one will know what army it is or which units to what?

Like Aldramelech said, a few non-GW models is cool (maybe more, depending on the army [mostly ork vehicles and chaos demons]). But an entire army (unless your new and trying stuff out) is poor taste and could be poor sportsmanship.

And nearly every company is like this.
Go to a Magic game with a set of BattleTech cards (the systems are pretty much the same), it's not going to happen.
D&D or D20 games with a 3rd party handbook, better hope it's houseruled! Some people will, some won't.
It's no different here. Some will let you, and some will say come back when you've got the right stuff.

Aims
08-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Okay, gentlemen. This forum is supposed to be a venue for expressing opinions. It is not, however, to be used for flaming wars and name calling. We've gotten complaints about some of the posts in this thread, and I see a few offenders, not just one. Keep it civil. Keep it respectful. Please. :)

Aldramelech
08-30-2009, 12:41 PM
Okay, gentlemen. This forum is supposed to be a venue for expressing opinions. It is not, however, to be used for flaming wars and name calling. We've gotten complaints about some of the posts in this thread, and I see a few offenders, not just one. Keep it civil. Keep it respectful. Please. :)

My apologies, last post written before yours appeared.

Old_Paladin
08-30-2009, 12:49 PM
All this frustration aside,
Anyone remember when 'paper-hammer' was legal, because it was a GW product?

I'm talking to all you 2nd ed. players, when the box set came with a Card Ork Dreadnought?
If an old-bie showed up with that, would you let them play it? It is a GW 'model' after all, more resent then the RT stuff that comes up from time to time.

I'd allow it, simply for nostalgia's sake.

AsgeirArnald
08-30-2009, 01:02 PM
All this frustration aside,
Anyone remember when 'paper-hammer' was legal, because it was a GW product?

I'm talking to all you 2nd ed. players, when the box set came with a Card Ork Dreadnought?
If an old-bie showed up with that, would you let them play it? It is a GW 'model' after all, more resent then the RT stuff that comes up from time to time.

I'd allow it, simply for nostalgia's sake.

I'd have to say I would allow it too, for the same reason. Plus I think most people would get a pretty good laugh out of it (I know I would!).

Grabnutz
08-31-2009, 01:07 PM
First apologies to all if I have offended some of you. I am an old Grognard who remembers the days before GW" ruled the roost" so to speak. I also witnessed just how GW got to their present position, what underhand and plain dishonest business practices they used, and I have friends who lost their businesses as a result.

GW is no shining beacon my friends. Yes they produce fine figures, and some of their rules are usable but they are not necessarily the only people in town.

Anyhoo, the game is afoot:


Not to go off on a rant, but...
If you showed up with Wood Elves on square bases for our game of 40K, I'd give you the finger and tell you off for wasting my time. (and I do like fantasy too, but the two systems don't work together).
This would be no better then a total proxy army. What are you playing? Tau? Eldar? Guard? What are the glade guard, eternal warriors, waywatchers and dancers? And the the heck did you do it? To get an unfair advantage, because no one will know what army it is or which units to what?.

Get with the program Paladin. We were talking about, as the title of this thread suggests, playing with non-GW models, not specifically W40K ones. If I may quote myself I think I made plain the context of fielding an Alternative Armies Wood Elf Army in a game of WFB. To whit:

"So if I field my Alternative Armies Wood Elf Army, an army that is completely WYSIWYG with Warhammer Fantasy Battles requirements, you would stick your nose in the air and declare me 'excommunicatus', and 'a damned heretic'? "

And on we wander...


Like Aldramelech said, a few non-GW models is cool (maybe more, depending on the army [mostly ork vehicles and chaos demons]). But an entire army (unless your new and trying stuff out) is poor taste and could be poor sportsmanship.

Why are a few non-GW models cool and an entire painted army in the right scale, with the correct basing and WYSIWYG to the GW rules uncool? I really do not understand this stance. If you look about you will actually find many figures out there that match, and in some cases exceed, the standard set by GW.


And nearly every company is like this.
Go to a Magic game with a set of BattleTech cards (the systems are pretty much the same), it's not going to happen.

But Battletech cards will only work in a Battletech game, whereas a Wood Elf figure armed with a bow is pretty universal across any number of fantasy wargames systems. Thus, methinks, your example is void.

I play W40K nearly every week with a group of other old codgers. We use the GW rules as published and have armies of just about every codex between us. In those armies are a happy mix of GW and non-GW miniatures, we choose our figures based upon their merit as sculptings not their heritage. We rarely use proxies except when testing a new rule or codex. We are gamers, not GW loyalists. We play for fun, not to meet the profit requirements of that corporation.

I do wonder what you would do if GW deleted your favourite codex or army? They have done this before and will no doubt do it again. Would you continue to play with it or bow obediently to their command that this army is no more?

Are you a gamer or a GW loyalist?

Grabnutz
08-31-2009, 01:14 PM
Okay, gentlemen. This forum is supposed to be a venue for expressing opinions. It is not, however, to be used for flaming wars and name calling. We've gotten complaints about some of the posts in this thread, and I see a few offenders, not just one. Keep it civil. Keep it respectful. Please. :)

I am one such offender and apologize unreservedly. I did not introduce the words '****' or 'fascist' into the conversation, but did repeat them in context.

Perhaps the term 'GW Loyalist' would be both more appropriate and more accurate?

A small question in keeping with this thread's subject matter then. What would The Fly Lords do if, in keeping with its past precedent, GW showed up at your door and ordered that you desisted from publishing your excellent codices and campaign settings?

I do wonder how those here who get so irate about people fielding non-GW models can actually play using your works, after all they are not approved GW products?

It is an interesting cleft stick they wedge themselves in n'est ce pas?

Old_Paladin
08-31-2009, 01:39 PM
@Grabnutz:
The Topic might be non-GW models; but this is still a 40K Sub-Forum, not a general forum. Nearly the whole thread has been about 40K so far (tanks, Clockwork 'Crons, etc.).
If the poster meant showing up to a fantasy game with fantasy models, then maybe I misunderstood and appologize. But more likely they meant showing up to a 40K game with non-40k (but still GW) models; which would imply a level of rudeness.

The main difference between some non-GW, and zero GW (why one is fine and the other isn't), is the same argument as buy FLGS or buy e-bay (a little online is fine; too much isn't always good).
If the person shows up to play with no GW, then the hobby isn't being supported. GW goes out of business and we don't get to play at all.
You, and/or some other people, show up with your e-bay armies, and the place we like to play at is eventually going to shut down.


And BattleTech was based on the Magic System (same 'scale' so to speak); they only difference would be you bring your 'Black' deck and I brink my 'IS Stockyards' or 'Clan Planets' deck. It wouldn't be perfect, but they would mesh alright.

Rapture
08-31-2009, 04:22 PM
As long as an army has distinguishable units and follows the rules out of a most recent codex I base my judgments on how good the models look not which company they came from.

I don't see why think some non-GW models are acceptable as long as there are only a few. What about converting? Scratch building? If an army has visually appealing models with a decent paintjob, a theme that flows throughout, and the look comes close enough to the rules that the player is using I can't see any reason why someone should object.

Lord Anubis
08-31-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm a little unclear how buying an army off eBay leads to shutting down stores. Did the eBay seller steal it from somewhere? One person bought it. One person is using it. It's not like photocopying a codex a hundred times and selling that at five dollars a pop. That, I would agree, will cause some economic problems. But if someone bought the models, how can it be causing problems?

By this logic, I shouldn't play with anything my brother buys me in New England and ships out here as a gift.

Heck, I shouldn't even be buying from Games Workshop. They're on the other side of the country, they don't contribute to my local economy at all. Buying from GW shuts down businesses, damn it!!!!


;)

Old_Paladin
08-31-2009, 06:18 PM
Buy from ebay affects your LOCAL store, unless the person you buy from got it from your local store (and that'd be weird); and buying from a different company affects GW as a whole.

If you only get stuff from your brother in New England, but play at the local store, then you are taking advantage.

Some of what you're saying might be sarcastic, but stop and think before being sarcastic! It is true. You buy from the GW website, then you give them money, but the local business does lose income.

And you might joke, but way to be ignorant about the situation; hands up the number of people that have lost a local store?
I haven't, yet (knock on wood), but my nearest GW's are 3 hours away; so I support my local independant place.

TSINI
08-31-2009, 07:24 PM
Ok, what do you think about these Non-GW Models/Scratch Builds/Counts-As ?


Such as this Harridan:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/EntireHiveFleet/11060011.JPG.html

Or this Trygon:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/01011042.jpg

Or this Warlord Titan:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-WarLordTitan.jpg

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/AnotherApocalypseGame/01011054.JPG.html

Or this Ork BattleWagon:
http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/19kApocalypse/10040003.JPG.html

Or this Ork Fighta-Bomma:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/006.jpg

Or this Dark Angels Thunderhawk:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee221/Mystarian/Pic-ThunderhawkWIP17.jpg

So, what's everyone's opinions of those? Go ahead, let um fly!!

this was the only post i actually enjoyed reading in the last 4 pages because it wasnt an argument or telling people how to think, or that what they think is wrong.

the harridan and trygon are very nice, individual, obvious what they represent, and you can tell the owner isnt trying to "pull one over" on their opponent because they look to be pretty bang on with size (or indeed bigger than they should be)

the warlord titan didnt fly with me, (im gonna guess it was a joke one lol) i accept somebody really may have put their little heart into it, and i'd play a game against it (i've played against 2 cardboard titan feet before, the imaginary body had so many guns i lost all my tanks in turn1...), but i wouldnt be seen dead playing against it in a documented game (battle report)

the ork vehicles are absolutely brilliant! the 1st fighter bomber, hilarious (although i'd use it as a looted valkyrie, it would suit the helicopter movement wise, and the rhino transporting space) the boat on legs is just genius as a battlewagon, and the blimp, awesome (again i'd be more inclined to use different rules for it than a fighter bomber, maybe some kind of skimming baneblade... just a thought)

great post sir!

eldargal
08-31-2009, 07:44 PM
Those scratch builts are fantastic (well, not so much the Warlord titan from an aesthetic sense but kudos for making the effort), and I really love the Bismork! Almost tempted to scrap planned guard army in favour of Orks now.

Mystery.Shadow
08-31-2009, 08:00 PM
Thanks for the kind words. A little bit of background information. The Warlord Titan was built by as 12 Year-Old ! That's right, twelve. This kid KNOWS his Warhammer too! He knows the rules, the fluff, everything better than most of the players we have around here. (Obviously) he doesn't have the income that most players have, and I applaud his efforts. We DID allow him to use the Warlord Titan in a game, just for kicks. But I believe the riducule persuaded him not to bring it again.

[Back on Topic] But, what do you think. REALLY, about the above Scratch Builds/Kit Bashes/NON-GW Models?!

Katie Drake
08-31-2009, 10:09 PM
Those are some nice scratch-built models. I'm not a big fan of the colour scheme on a lot of the Orky things, but the models themselves are gorgeous, especially that Trygon! It's very appropriate serpentine, something I always thought that the Forge World model (and the Tyranid range in general) lacked. The red paint job is gorgeous too. The models look almost slick and wet, like they're covered in blood or some alien ka-ka. The Warlord is an excellent attempt. I'm 21 and I'd probably have less luck than that kid did, so kudos to him! I bet that took a while. :) The Thunderhawk was also well done, it looks similar to the Forge World model and is nicely painted.

Lord Anubis
09-01-2009, 01:07 AM
only[/U] get stuff from your brother in New England, but play at the local store, then you are taking advantage.

Some of what you're saying might be sarcastic, but stop and think before being sarcastic! It is true. You buy from the GW website, then you give them money, but the local business does lose income.

And you might joke, but way to be ignorant about the situation; hands up the number of people that have lost a local store?
I haven't, yet (knock on wood), but my nearest GW's are 3 hours away; so I support my local independant place.

The only gaming store I know of that's gone out of business in Los Angeles was the nearby Games Workshop store. Hmmmmm... I guess I should've supported them, but you just told me not to. I'm confused...

As for the rest... "you are taking advantage?" Seriously? Do you want to call "no tag-backs" on that, too, just to be safe?

:)

Grabnutz
09-01-2009, 01:30 AM
If the person shows up to play with no GW, then the hobby isn't being supported. GW goes out of business and we don't get to play at all.

Now this I do not understand at all. The 'hobby' is wargaming, in this case the sub-genre is Science Fiction or possibly Science Fantasy. The potential failure of one company, even a Goliath like GW, does not mean the hobby ceases. Are you telling me that if GW failed you would immediately stop playing? Does this seem at all logical to you?

This is a bunker mentality that is actively promoted by GW, can you not see that? They go out of their way to recruit youngster into their stores and try and keep them close to their breasts even after they have grown up, primarily by trying to fill all their gaming needs from dice to paints, and by never, ever, telling them there is hobby- life outside of GW. If this wasn't gaming it would be called a cult.

There are other games companies, there are other games as good as if not better than the Warhammer series. The main difference is that GW has grown so large, through its aggressive retail model, that it casts a shadow over everyone else's efforts with its enormous marketing spend.The prime purpose of all their stores is not to sell figures but to market the brand. This is the financial reality.

Despite all this I love their universes, I like the figures and mostly enjoy their rules (though their tendency to invent new rules simply to sell figures does grate continuously). However, I am not a GW loyalist. I love the endless creativity and variety that exists outside GW's bunkers.

Basically I am a gamer first, and always will be.

Grabnutz
09-01-2009, 01:41 AM
Those are some nice scratch-built models. I'm not a big fan of the colour scheme on a lot of the Orky things, but the models themselves are gorgeous, especially that Trygon! It's very appropriate serpentine, something I always thought that the Forge World model (and the Tyranid range in general) lacked.

This sort of creativity will no doubt have the various GW Loyalists here fuming. "How dare these heretics steal from Forgeworld and GW?" I can hear them cry.

However, scratchbuilding has been part of the GW hobby since the very beginning. Also the use of other manufacturer's models was perfectly acceptable right into the mid 1990's. Really we had no choice as GW's range was far more limited than the imaginations of its rules designers and authors.

The very first public game of Warhammer, between Rick Priestly and Gary Chalk in Westminster Hall in London, was fought moslty between Minifigs and Ral Partha figures.

Can no-one see the absurdity of this whole thread? Is it alright to use non-GW models in GW games? Since when did we have to ask permission of a manufacturer to use their goods as we please?

The main reason GW get's all huffy about using non-GW models is that they didn't make a buck out of them. Remember that. It's not about the hobby it's about money...

eldargal
09-01-2009, 04:25 AM
Actually, the OP said in his second post that this was NOT about scratch builds, but cheap non GW models being used in place of GW units. Honestly now, anyone who does have an issue with scratch builds has problems.
Personally, I'm all for scratch builds and conversion, even using the odd non-GW model if the fancy suits. What I'm less keen on is whole armies of non-GW models unless there is agood reason (the most compelling so far being the person who said he would use non-GW to represent unsupported IG units. The point I'm trying to make is there is a difference between using non-GW models to add variety or show unsupported races/units etc and using a $5 barrel of green army men to represent an entire guard army.
This is all my personal opinion and I do not wish or expect anyone else to follow it, and personally I think it is a pity this topic has been hijacked by a dogmatic approach from both camps as opposed to people merely expressing their own opinions. Which is all the OP asked for.



This sort of creativity will no doubt have the various GW Loyalists here fuming. "How dare these heretics steal from Forgeworld and GW?" I can hear them cry.

However, scratchbuilding has been part of the GW hobby since the very beginning. Also the use of other manufacturer's models was perfectly acceptable right into the mid 1990's. Really we had no choice as GW's range was far more limited than the imaginations of its rules designers and authors.

The very first public game of Warhammer, between Rick Priestly and Gary Chalk in Westminster Hall in London, was fought moslty between Minifigs and Ral Partha figures.

Can no-one see the absurdity of this whole thread? Is it alright to use non-GW models in GW games? Since when did we have to ask permission of a manufacturer to use their goods as we please?

The main reason GW get's all huffy about using non-GW models is that they didn't make a buck out of them. Remember that. It's not about the hobby it's about money...

Old_Paladin
09-01-2009, 06:18 AM
Are you telling me that if GW failed you would immediately stop playing? Does this seem at all logical to you?

Yes, I probably would (maybe not the day they had to shut down, but the countdown would likely be on at that point).
My personal hobby is warhammer (a little WHFB and a little 40K). I don't play FoW, or any of those other games; and am not really that interested in them.

Don't mistake hobby as a personal thing, with Hobby as a genre; just because its sci-fi table-top minis, doesn't mean I'm into it, just because it's painting doesn't mean I'm into it.
I like my hobby, I don't like all Hobbies.

@Anubis: Sure, I'll call 'no tag backs'; I buy all my models from my local place (the gifts I get from my family are also from that place). I support my local gaming store. I'm talking about people that don't put a dime (or just very little) into their local place, but expect to be able to play on the tables all day long whenever they feel like it.


And I'm gonna drop the 'how economics work (local business vs. corprate)' because people either really don't get it; or they're just trolling.

Aldramelech
09-01-2009, 08:30 AM
Actually, the OP said in his second post that this was NOT about scratch builds, but cheap non GW models being used in place of GW units. Honestly now, anyone who does have an issue with scratch builds has problems.
Personally, I'm all for scratch builds and conversion, even using the odd non-GW model if the fancy suits. What I'm less keen on is whole armies of non-GW models unless there is agood reason (the most compelling so far being the person who said he would use non-GW to represent unsupported IG units. The point I'm trying to make is there is a difference between using non-GW models to add variety or show unsupported races/units etc and using a $5 barrel of green army men to represent an entire guard army.
This is all my personal opinion and I do not wish or expect anyone else to follow it, and personally I think it is a pity this topic has been hijacked by a dogmatic approach from both camps as opposed to people merely expressing their own opinions. Which is all the OP asked for.

Nail, Head, on target!

Ignatius
09-01-2009, 06:18 PM
If they put as much effort into their non-GW army as I put into my all GW army, I'll play them. If it's a soda bottle with feet and they call it a titan no way. To me its the effort ,time and imagination involved for that different look. I'm converting a bunch of close-out rack figs into a zealot unit to run with Witchhunters. That led to a buddy and I planning to build an all non-G IG army from all those left over "Starship Troopers" mobile infantry (a whole bunch of converting) . Really as long as it looks decent and all the" looks like plays like" is consistent why not? I wouldn't dream of taking any non-GW figures into a GW store . Just in "friendly games of course. But even "green army men " would probably be O.K. if they were painted. The thing that gets me twisted up is the player that says "I don't' have them all painted yet" and 2 months later they use that line again and the army looks the same.

Contention
09-01-2009, 06:38 PM
I use several models in the 40k chaos army that are not GW. I dislike the current Nurgle Prince so use an Old Death from enigma miniatures (http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/product.php?xProd=4301) and have nothing but hatred for the current greater deamons while the Ultraforge ones are amazing.

mutantpoo
09-01-2009, 06:39 PM
Non-GW models have never bothered me. I routinely play against a guy who uses Heroscape robots as Crisis Suits. Long as I know ahead of time what they are acrrying it makes no difference to me. Toothpicks on a stand with a paper name of the unit tape on is okay with me too. Doesn't look great but if the games are fun, who cares . Better to let people play with what money they have to spend.

Cerberus
09-01-2009, 06:50 PM
OT:
- If I'm in a GW store I expect to play against painted GW Mini's. They don't have to be finished, but as long as it looks like your trying it's cool
-If it's at the LGS, I'll play against anything even a Coke bottle DP as long as it looks like your progressing on your army and it's not the same as it was a year ago.
-At home, well I only invite friends over so I really don't care what you bring in your army as long as there's a beer in there somewhere.

Couldn't agree more.

Later

Blue Beetle
09-01-2009, 06:55 PM
I have 4 Chronopia Firstborn Swordsmen that are painted and converted to stand in as Honor Guard since GW only has 2 sculpts and I need multiple squads of 10. No one's complained since they're there to fill out ranks.

ChrisW
09-01-2009, 07:10 PM
well little late on to this but i'll still drop a couple cents in....

as long as the sub is a painted mini/vehicle that is reasonable replacement i'd have no issue, BUT:

(following example from a gaming convention wayy back when)

the pencil top eraser figures subbing in for epic tyrinid creatures or a block of Lego (tm) subbing for a epic Banelord titian just does not cut it. it was an epic display event, not so sorry to say i embarrassed the guy who did that by plunking down my painted Banelord beside it. (got third in a my first painting contest...... there was only a few entries :P). about the only time i could have deserved an 'asshat' but subbing stuff in a display event is just not wise.

RogueGarou
09-02-2009, 12:05 AM
Personally, I'm cool with it for the most part. Someone has an old Demonblade walker, put it on the table. Got some cool looking War Machine Jack in lieu of a Dreadnought? No worries. I'm kind of laid back about things. There are a lot of very sweet minis out there. I buy minis just to paint or to use to make objectives or to add to a base to represent a slave chained to a Chaos Marine or whatever else jumps into my head at the time. However, like has been said before, the models have to be similar to what they represent. A squad of Infinity infantry standing in for Imperial Guard, OK. That squad standing in as Space Marine Scouts, maybe. Same squad as Space Marines, I am OK with that temporarily but I want to see some power armor or something that is obviously akin to power armor soon. Same with the scale. If it is close, OK. If it is way bigger or smaller, I am OK if it is a stand-in to try out the unit but not as a permanent proxy.

If someone scratch builds something and it is bigger, OK, their tactical loss with true line of sight. Trying to exploit a small size by having a head sticking out of a base? I would have to say something.

One thing that I have seen come up before that I absolutely disagree with is giving someone grief over using an old Citadel mini. I have seen people have a very aggressive discussion that an old Rogue Trader-era Dreadnought is not a real GW model. I don't like them personally but as far as I am concerned they are completely legit. They were made by/for GW so I am completely cool with that. I have all four of the old Greater Daemons. They are not as big as the new ones but I don't like the new ones. I will get some of the Forgeworld ones someday, maybe not the blob GUO but the 'Thirster and Zarakynel are nice. There is an Imperial Guard army featured in a White Dwarf where the GW-staffer who built the army is using an old Chainsaw Warriors mini as his army commander. Chainsaw Warriors were made by Citadel and no one in White Dwarf made any comment about not being able to play the model. It's a game, have fun, but be reasonable.

Tournaments are not games. Tournaments are serious. It's like putting money on the table. You are playing for something, a prize, a trophy, bragging rights, something. For tourneys, you have to pay to play. I don't think proxies are OK or using anything prohibited by the rules. Most tourneys specifically say you must use a Citadel mini, no or restricted proxies, and you must abide by WYSIWYG. Joe Montana would not go to a football game wearing a hardhat and a t-shirt. Tiger Woods would not show up at the Masters with a cricket bat and a piece of rebar(Chuck Norris could do that). And Joe Wargamer should not show up to a 40k tournament with Kryomek minis that are supposed to be Eldar Guardians or a War Machine tournament with GW Marines. My opinion entirely, though.

prophet665
09-02-2009, 08:05 AM
I think it comes down to two simple rules:

1. In a GW store or a GW tournament - all GW minis or better than average scratch built minis.
2. In FLGS or anywhere else - anything goes within reason. Over time you can call someone out for not improving their army above the coke-bottle-as-a-drop-pod standard.

prophet665
09-02-2009, 08:07 AM
I think it comes down to two simple rules:

1. In a GW store or a GW tournament - all GW minis or better than average scratch built minis.
2. In FLGS or anywhere else - anything goes within reason. Over time you can call someone out for not improving their army above the coke-bottle-as a drop pod standard.

Dahli.Llama
09-02-2009, 08:12 AM
As long as they are consistent, and at least close to the same scale, then I wouldn't have a problem. I'd be even more apt to be cool with it if it's a creative substitute. If it was obviously just a half-assed way to get away with not buying as much stuff, then I'd be disappointed.

Tsear
09-02-2009, 10:16 AM
If it's clear what's what and they look good, then it's fine by me. I've seen a lot of cool alternate treemen.

MetalStorm4786
09-02-2009, 11:43 AM
Back when I first heard about Warhammer maybe 10 years ago, there was only one thing stopping me from getting into the hobby, money. Think twice next time you're about to rag on someone for proxies, scratch built stuff or alternative models. Telling someone who can't afford to buy the models to play the game that you won't play with them may turn them off to it completely. And not everyone has hours upon hours to convert stuff either.

Not everyone HAS to the time and money to invest in this hobby. Who want's to invest that much into a hobby they aren't even sure they will like? Warhammer isn't the type of thing that you play once and decide if you like it or not. Offer help to players who have "unacceptable" conversions. Maybe what they brought to the table is the best they can do, and feel really bad when you crap all over thier army. As long as someone puts in 50%, I'm fine. Buy the models and use em unpainted for all I care. Make your own models as long as they resemble what they are supposed to be. Or do a little of both. I'm stopping here because I could on about this forever.

The economy sucks right now, if it's at your LGS, just let it go.

timbo101
09-02-2009, 02:00 PM
This is a game, and IMHO if people have put time and effort in and are having a good time playing then ultimatly what does it matter what has been fielded? - This whole hobby is about enjoying yourself and nothing else.

Don't GW themselves say that the game is just a starter for your imagination to run wild. The big caviate is that everyone's got to understand exactly what's what. With friends that's not hard, but with strangers facing off over the table I can understand that this could break-down fast without some standards.

As to that paper titan. OK it didn't look the best, but so long as it had a properly agreed data sheet i would not have a problem playing it. Not everyone can afford a spanking Forge world model, or have the skills to scratch build something to a high standard. Cutting off stuff because they do not meet you stadards IMHO is very narrow minded.

zaphod_zarniwoop
10-20-2009, 10:26 AM
The thing to remember is everybody needs to start somewhere. If some kid is using a bunch of proxies to play a few games to help him decide whether he likes the game and wants to buy the actual models at some point, don't give them a hard time for it.

Some people have less time and/or money to spend on the game as well; they might not have their army fully painted or have all the models they want - yet. If they are saving for them, and painting the stuff they have whenever they find time, should they be exiled from the playing table for that?

Of course, if someone knows the rules in and out and just uses proxies of the most powerful units to pownzor everyone, then I would object. If someone is lazy and has no intention of painting their minis to any appreciable level, that ticks me off too. I do prefer my enemies to have a cool-looking army. They don't all need to be compliant with tournament rules as long as we're playing a friendly game though.

Quite some people seem to have issues with non-GW bits/models being used. If you're at a tournament, I'd say abide by their rules. Same goes for game stores, though I'd expect them to be a bit more lenient; have enthusiastic players in your store seems to me to be a good way of promoting the game, even if they use a few bits and bobs from other manufacturers. It lets people see it's not just about spending piles of money on the same models everyone else has, but that there's room for creativity as well (and I don't mean just picking a different color scheme).

I personally prefer heavily converted models, with bits from other minis games or old toys or whatever. As long as they're mounted on standard bases and have appropriate WYSIWYG weapons, very little bothers me.

steeldragon
10-22-2009, 10:27 AM
It took like three days to read all the posts...

I truly have no problem with cool modified, properly based models, WYSIWYG. I don't care if they are GW or not. Daemons, IG and Inquisitor stuff is easier to fit models from other ranges.

Space Marines, Eldars and Tau are a little more complicated, as long as it's properly based, and not confusing I don't care if they are using a full Kryomek Aliens army instead of Tyranids to represent some lost Hive Fleet.

I do like to tinker with models, plasticard is fantastic and I do feel conversions are a great part of the hobby... denying them is like going 'you can only play with GW models on GW terrain' route, if you find that statement absurd, please apply them to miniatures too, current GW marketing is only convincing us that GW terrain is better, not the only possibility.

If someone told me I can't use this chaos lord I sculpted (only the backpack is GW... what % that is?) I will not bother to unpack the rest of the army:

http://bit.ly/quZII

My only issue, and it's a big issue (for me at least) are the argentinian recasts... I live in Chile and in the neighbor country (imagine Canada if you live in the US) and there were a whole industry of recasts of GW stuff, the copies were very good, painted they will look exactly the same, the only way to notice some of them were the bases, but if you used GW bases there was a very high possibility to not notice the recast. THAT is illegal, wrong, etc, etc... they sold them for a tenth of the GW price, making viable SoB armies, for example. The production was big enough to flood the local scene. That is cheating the system, profiting from someone else's work and it's wrong...

Andres

Duke
10-22-2009, 11:15 AM
though I agree 100% with the whole not copying and selling GW models I would like to play devils advocate.

In the US we have anti trust laws (Monopoly). Currently GW has a complete monopoly on the market of 40k models. Not only that but they don't allow others to use their ideas when casting your own models. (For example, if I casted a Space Marine I couldn't call it a Space marine I would have to call it a Space Spartan)
At what point is GW the criminal for preventing competition and hijacking the free market?

Duke

PS- Please remember that I am playing devils advocate in the above post.

crazyredpraetorian
10-22-2009, 11:37 AM
GW has a copyright on 40K and all of their other products. Therefore, they have the right to prevent trademark infringement. That is not a monopoly. If they were preventing other companies from making any miniature games, they would have a monopoly and be open to anti-trust investigation.

Duke
10-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Im not so much talking about monopoly in the entire miniatures gaming arena. Im talking about production of miniatures for the system of 40k. It almost feels like Windows and the PC. Sure you could have a different computer, but good luck trying to get a different OS.


Duke

steeldragon
10-22-2009, 11:48 AM
So basically you want to make a Star Wars movie without paying any rights to Lucas, claiming that Lucas is holding a monopoly on the Star Wars universe ¬¬

You could do other movies, you know, just not Star Wars.

Andres

Duke
10-22-2009, 12:28 PM
No, what I was going at was that GW should open up the platform (Much like Lucas has). How many companies make Star Wars materials? How many people have written Star Wars books/ games/ etc.

What I am postualting is that GW might consider the cost benefit of allowing other companies to use their IP in order to foster more efficent distribution/ creation of minis. Currently they hold onto their mini production with an iron fist. I wonder from a business perspective and from aplayer perspective if it would be more reasonable to open up the IP.

The Video game industry (I.e. Sony) has realized a long time ago that it is more productive to allow other companies to make the games for the system than for them to do it themselves. In fact, the consoles are generally loss leaders. Allowing the other companies to use you IP can lower cost and increase revenue. It could also better serve the community of players.

Duke

PS- Just reminding you that Iam merely playing counter point for the sake of discussion.

steeldragon
10-22-2009, 12:36 PM
I believe the platform is already open for 40K, with several videogames, by different companies, books, comics, FFG doing boardgames and paper RPGs... videogames ussually don't have all the sales platform GW has with hobby centres owned by themselves, so my guess is they have a better way to get bigger margins instead of volume (that videogames do get selling everywhere, but providing a distributor discount).

Andres

Lerra
10-22-2009, 12:39 PM
I don't seen any ethical issues with GW having a "monopoly" on the 40k universe. They own the IP after all and they can do as they wish with it.

The only business practice that annoys me is in GW-sponsored tournaments where every single model has to be GW or the army is illegal. It's less of an issue now that the GTs are kaput, but many private tournaments keep to this practice even though they no longer get any kind of support from GW. It seems a bit anti-competitive to force players to use GW models. Sort of like having a basketball tournament sponsored by Nike where all the players must be wearing Nike shoes or they aren't allowed to compete.

Duke
10-22-2009, 01:03 PM
...
The only business practice that annoys me is in GW-sponsored tournaments where every single model has to be GW or the army is illegal. It's less of an issue now that the GTs are kaput, but many private tournaments keep to this practice even though they no longer get any kind of support from GW. It seems a bit anti-competitive to force players to use GW models. Sort of like having a basketball tournament sponsored by Nike where all the players must be wearing Nike shoes or they aren't allowed to compete.

This is pretty much what I was presenting.

@steel: Mostly, I am talking about model production.

Duke

MarshalAdamar
10-22-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm of two minds.

One is from the fluff. A Rhino is a Rhino is a Rhino. Its call "Standard template construct" or some such.

Which I take to mean its STANDARD so using a 6 wheeled Tamia APC to represent a rhino might look cool but it messes with my world vision… man.

Now for guard; to speak to the interesting "chimeras" that were posted. I don't have that problem AS LONG AS the models are the correct scale and take up the appropriate foot print.

So if the models that were shown are the same size (roughly) as a chimera I would allow them. I figure they're some local militia forces vehicles or some such. And that person did make the models WYSIWYG, the heavy flamer, the turret (multilaser) I assume, the search light and dozer blade. I mean they were painted, modified with GW parts. Heck they even had decals! So I think those would be ok (for me)

Green army men, no, not now, not ever...

I guess my position is if it looks good, matches the fluff and is well built and matches the scale I’m ok with it.

lobster-overlord
10-22-2009, 05:07 PM
To the question of GW allowing or not allowing things to be used, for the view point of an open platform....

40k is an open platform. If you want to make models of your own, you can. If you want to build an army with Army Men, you can. If you want to build terrain and not paint it so you see the Kelloggs logo on it, you can. However, your not going to be allowed to play in anything official, no tournament, no GW events, and most of the people at the LGS will likely make fun of youto the point where you don't want to do anything again in the hobby, but technically, there is nothing stopping one from making their army out of non-GW stuff.

While ordering from GW mail order one day, I specifically asked the question "what bout non-GW models/bitz"? THe 51% rule was invoked, as well as not being able to tell what the original was.

I certainly wouldn't mind playing against a well crafted, well built, well modeled army made from non-GW models (like an IG army using iKore models...they look right, and can be well fit into the codex). I'd rather play against that than someone who doesn't WYSIWYG or even attempt to paint a GW model he has.

DOing things to avoid cost (green army men plastic tanks) is just cheap and not in the spirit of the Hobby. GW or not, a Tamyia tank is better than the Army Men tanks, which I too have seen used for predators.

We did allow it for a couple of games in our store because they were being used as proxies on a new list by a player, but he did end up buying a couple of predators once he saw that they worked well in his new list. I never saw that as a problem either, because the intent of the player was there. And I guess in the end, that's what it comes down to for me. Is the player into it for the hobby craft or just a cheap way to play a game?

John M.

Lerra
10-22-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't have any problem with gamers who are trying to save a buck or two, as long as the finished product is polished and fits the scale/feel of the army. I don't think you need to sacrifice your dollars at the altar of GW to be a proper hobbyist - you just need to put care and effort into your army. Tossing a bucket of unpainted Green Army Men on the table is never cool, but I wouldn't have a problem with a Green Army Men tank that was heavily converted into an Ork looted vehicle or something like that.

I am currently scratch-building 9 drop pods because A) it's a fun challenge and B) I can't afford the $315. This is a many-months-long project with lots of plasticard, greenstuff, and foam board. I might not be able to afford all GW models, but if someone says I'm a bad hobbyist after months of work on these things, I'd like to see them scratch build a few models themselves. It's much easier to just buy the darn things!

PhoenixFlame
10-23-2009, 12:27 AM
For my two cents I think the only things that matter are:

1) Can you tell what unit is being represented when you look at it?
2) Is it of the proper size for LoS and Basing measurements?

Between the above two that should take out most of the rules and the "braking the fourth wall" issues. Beyond that I don't care and while I lean towards having more figs clearly GW I think that trying to enforce a requirement is a slippery slope and really a non-functional stance while GW still doesn't even make (much less still support) figs for all of the choices in various army lists. As a specific example, I'll buy the daemon prince of Khorn from FW to play with my pure Khorn army but I don't even have the option to buy a Slaanesh themed "demon price" (unless you count the larger named FW keeper of secrets as an 'option' for that, but the sizes just don't work IMO tho I love the fig), also the seekers of Slaanesh aren't currently supported (and with them the chariot) etc. etc.

I totally agree that playing with foam blocks and wood chips, as well as things like green army men takes away from the enjoyment... but until GW supports all of the figs in every codex it's neither practical nor fair to start talking about imposing bans.

2c

Phoenix

Edit: Lerra covers another aspect/a lot of what I think as well (yes I posted before reading all 24 pages). So long as the size / image isn't confusing or miss leading I'd go so far as to so that scratch built should always be acceptable even if GW ever did get to the point of supporting all their army options with figs

Pi666
10-23-2009, 01:41 AM
Hard thread this is...(Must stop talkin like Yoda)

I use Rackham minis for my Mordheim Norse Warband, and for my Dark Elves Warband I use some Warcrow and Freeboteer. The reason is coolness. (Note: I own a full Space Marine Company, so I'm not suspicious of being anti-gw or something). Is like using some Avatars of War for Fantasy, Infinty suits for your Tau, etc... but you have to know they're not allowed in most of then tournaments out there. Finally my opinion is, "why not?" with a limit.

Brother Rumba
10-24-2009, 01:43 AM
I've always wanted to build a small force of infantry using quality non-GW mini's and give them a back-story as a mercenary unit. Being non-GW would just add a fun twist to the 'outsider' image mercenaries have.

NecronLord3
10-27-2009, 11:52 AM
I've really wanted to use this model for my Nightbringer:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/store/product.php?xProd=4301