PDA

View Full Version : Paints - P3 and Coat d'Arms, any experience?



Powerslave
08-06-2009, 02:22 PM
Hey everyone!

I am a big fan of Vallejo Model Color paints (I have about 30 different VMC colors) - and I use them regularly for miniatures that I do not game with - display / collection pieces - to those, I apply a lot of different techniques with filters, oils, enamels and MIG Pigments (got almost all the pigments, effects, and Filters). I simply love Vallejo and MIG and for my main models I will always keep using them, but there is always a but...

... But for my everyday armies - I need something simpler than VMC - because VMC chips very easily and even with a coat of protective varnish, I am always worrying about touching my miniatures.

So far my regular gaming armies have been painted with 65% GW paints (I have almost all GW Citadel and Foundation colors) and 35% Vallejo paints. But, I am coming to a point where I just want to throw my GW paints out of the window (except for the Foundation paints, which are decently good). I am very tired of the Citadel paint line. My biggest concerns are - I hate the pots, I hate the coverage and I hate when the paint splits inside the pot after a while.

So I was looking for a new line of paints that can take out the GW out of my painting needs so to say. I did some research and came up with three choices to pick as a new line to compliment my VMC and MIG collections. I want a line that would be on par with VMC coverage wise.

I found these three choices: Reaper Master Series, Coat d'Arms and P3 Formula Paints. Now... Reaper paints are almost impossible to get in France, and ordering online, they still come out very expensive.

So I am torn between P3 and Coat d'Arms, who are made by the same manufacturer, but use different formulas.

So, I wanted to ask you all here - do you have any experience with P3 or Coat d'Arms? If yes, then which one is better, or are they on par? How well do they cover? And if someone can confirm that their yellows and reds are better than GW's then I will be a happy man. So what do you guys think?

I also heard that both Coat d'Arms and P3 are very good for wet blending, any thoughts on that?

I will really appreciate any feedback.

RealGenius
08-06-2009, 02:31 PM
I've got a bunch of the Coat d'Arms paint and have used it for a while. It is like the old GW paints, circa 1995. The lighter colors don't cover particularly well. I haven't tried them recently, but I'd rather use GW Foundation reds and yellows.

I do use the Coat d'Arms for blending, and they work great for that.

Súil Dubh
08-06-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm having paint problems myself.

I'd heard good things about the Wargames Foundry's (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/main.asp) line of paints so I recently ordered some. They come in sets of three: a base, a light, and a shade.

I was pretty disappointed after they arrived though: firstly, because the actual colors of the paints didn't match the colors displayed on the website; secondly, because they didn't cover much better than regular GW paints; and thirdly, because the difference between the base/light/shade for most of the colors was too subtle to notice. The sets were expensive too.

It's a shame, because I'd heard Foundry paints covered well, and the base/light/shade sets seemed like such a good idea. Before ordering, I thought that this would have been the answer to all my painting needs.

Did anyone ever use the Ral Partha line of paints from the mid 80's? These were, by far, the best and cheapest paints I'd ever used. Sadly now they're long out of production.

In the early 80's the Floquil Polly S company made an official Advanced Dungeons and Dragons line of paints, and these were quite good too. Obviously, that line is long gone as well. Only the good die young, I guess.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 08:07 PM
Well I've just splashed out on a set of Model Air paints from Vallejo to do both my WWII stuff and maybe carry some techniques and schemes over to my SM and IG tanks. My only concern is with chipping, but I'm hoping that it can be alleviated by copius coats of Testor's Dullcoat that does wonders for everything else.

I'm also toying with the Reaper Masters Series as they come in triads and I'm lazy when it comes to shades. Heard some very good stuff about them, but I'm still tempted by the Model Colours simply for their range and different pallete to standard GW and other fantasy paints. I'll probably end up using RMS for day to day stuff along with some GW for things like infantry and Model Air for vehicles. I don't mind the shades not exactly matching up since in RL vehicles more often than not have different colour schemes to the uniforms!

Powerslave
08-07-2009, 06:31 AM
Thanks for the replies!

I have done some extra research on the net and found out some interesting information - the genral consensus seems to be that P3 Formula Paints have amazing coverage and are the best choice for wet blending (also, their whites, bone / beige, yellows, reds cover much better than GW's paints).

I think I will go with P3 - as their formula and pigment is a bit richer than that of Coat d'Arms.

Although it would be good to hear some tales about P3 painting experiences.

Morat
08-07-2009, 09:26 AM
I've seen persistent rumour that Wargames Foundry's paint system is once again Coat d'Arms paint in different pots. Usually coming alongside reports of it having the same strengths and drawbacks.

The more I look into it the more I'm convinced that just buying from whichever manufacturer makes the best colour and having a mutt of a paint collection is the way to go.

I'd not heard much about Vallejo's chip resistance (or apparent lack thereof) are we talking about on metal here or on plastic and resin too. Was planning to drop a lot on Vallejo's airbrush colours soonish. But if I have to repaint my tanks after every game (or at all for that matter) I'm not interested.

Powerslave
08-07-2009, 11:28 AM
Vallejo Game Color paints have good chip resistance, but their colors and coverage are not as good as Vallejo Model Color. VMC indeed is not chip resistant both for resin and metal, and even plastic models do not fare much better. So with VMC you get the best results, but you need to varnish the miniatures like crazy.

The Airbrush series from Vallejo are fairly good - but make sure to varnish them no matter what.

Don't get me wrong - I love Vallejo and I stand by VMC as my favorite brand of miniature paints. VMC and MIG are the best things to happen to miniature paints industry.

My quest here is to find a perfect alternative for GW Citadel paints, because I use them for pieces that I handle a lot in games, for resistance purposes.

For display pieces, or for show-off armies, I only use Vallejo Model Color and MIG products - in my opinion, it's the only way (for example my Alaitoc Eldar, my Death Korps of Krieg and all CSM or SM HQ choices are all painted in VMC and MIG).

But, I saw some videos on youtube and heard some amazing reviews of P3 paints and the liquid pigmentation formula that it uses, which is totally different from Foundry or Coat d'Arms (yet made in the same factory). So, bascially I thought that P3 can be the ideal substitute for GW paints and it can also be the ideal line of paints for wet blending. P3 has amazing coverage and very deep and rich tones, yet the line is not as immense as Vallejo's, it dries in a satin / brighter finish, and it is useless for drybrushing (so it has its ups and downs).

Súil Dubh
08-07-2009, 05:01 PM
I've seen persistent rumour that Wargames Foundry's paint system is once again Coat d'Arms paint in different pots. Usually coming alongside reports of it having the same strengths and drawbacks.

Didn't know that - thanks for the heads up. I was thinking about trying Coat d'Arms someday. Now I probably won't bother.


The more I look into it the more I'm convinced that just buying from whichever manufacturer makes the best colour and having a mutt of a paint collection is the way to go.

I completely agree. That's the philosophy I use for my modelling tools anyway - most of the files, knives, and finishing paper are from Tamiya, glues and finishing sprays from Mr. Hobby, generic brushes from an artstore, generic superglue and white glue from a hardware store etc.

Súil Dubh
08-07-2009, 05:02 PM
I think I will go with P3 - as their formula and pigment is a bit richer than that of Coat d'Arms.

Please keep us updated!

Morat
08-07-2009, 05:30 PM
[QUOTE=Súil Dubh;5669]Didn't know that - thanks for the heads up. I was thinking about trying Coat d'Arms someday. Now I probably won't bother.

Heh, steady old chap. I'd stress -rumour- in my statement. Might need further study before you damn them to the pit for all eternity! ;)

RedScorpionsGirl
08-07-2009, 11:56 PM
I must say I am definately a fan of P3 paints. A friend of mine plays warmachine and had me try out a few, and I find that the color is a lot more consistent. On top of that, the bottles seal better than gw, drying out a lot less. The paint is a bit thinner, but in all honesty, it works out a lot better. I had trouble painting skin until I had a friend show me how to paint faces in 5 minutes, with 3 colors. It was awsome, and I was truly impressed with them. I haven't tried the primers yet, but I do hear good things.

A couple of other great P3 products, the Wet pallate, and their studio brushes. I have the fine studio brush, and while it's an $11.00 investment, it is well worth it when you see the results from it. The wet pallate is great especially if you are in and out working with paints in places where the humidity is high, like Baton Rouge....it's a life saver..lol

darth_papi76
08-08-2009, 09:40 AM
What colors do you use to paint skin? I've been having trouble recently because I'm down to my last bottle of GW Bronzed Flesh. GW got rid of that and I'm having trouble finding a good substitute.

Skeletay
08-09-2009, 10:32 PM
P3 paints are great! The only real complaint I have with them is that their metals are not as good as the GW ones. The best thing about P3 is that they have inks.

Skeletay
08-09-2009, 10:35 PM
What colors do you use to paint skin? I've been having trouble recently because I'm down to my last bottle of GW Bronzed Flesh. GW got rid of that and I'm having trouble finding a good substitute.

Bronzed flesh was never a good colour for skin. Unless you're painting orange people. The P3 flesh colours are also really good.

RedScorpionsGirl
08-10-2009, 01:05 PM
What colors do you use to paint skin? I've been having trouble recently because I'm down to my last bottle of GW Bronzed Flesh. GW got rid of that and I'm having trouble finding a good substitute.


From the P3 line, for flesh, I use these three layered up:

Idrian Flesh
Khardic Flesh
Midlund Flesh

There is one that is darker than Idrian and one that is lighter than Midlund if you want to expand it out to 5 colors (sorry, I don't remember them off hand) but I only use these three and if you need to go lighter than Midlund, you can mix white with it to get the desired color.

Skeletay
08-10-2009, 02:28 PM
There is one that is darker than Idrian and one that is lighter than Midlund if you want to expand it out to 5 colors (sorry, I don't remember them off hand) but I only use these three and if you need to go lighter than Midlund, you can mix white with it to get the desired color.[/QUOTE]

The lighter one is called Ryn flesh. I find Midlund and ryn flesh go well together.

Chaos
08-10-2009, 02:48 PM
im a new painter and was wondering what foundation paints are used for because i really like one of the colors but im not sure if its just normal paint or what?

Skeletay
08-10-2009, 03:01 PM
im a new painter and was wondering what foundation paints are used for because i really like one of the colors but im not sure if its just normal paint or what?

Foundation paints are paint with lots of extra pigment so they can paint over black easier. I paint over a white undercoat (which I recommend you try before you get sucked into the black undercoat propaganda:p) , so I don't have much use for them but they can be used just like regular paint. They act slightly different than regular paint, but the difference is negligible.

Chaos
08-10-2009, 04:48 PM
K thanks for the help

darth_papi76
08-10-2009, 04:50 PM
Thanks for the tips everyone.:)

Powerslave
09-02-2009, 02:44 AM
Hey guys!

I know that some people wanted to hear my feedback on Formula P3 paints, so here we go.

While visiting back home in Kiev, Ukraine (correct spelling Kyiv) - I bought 15 P3 paints and 3 P3 inks to give them a good try. Let me tell you - I loved them so much that I ordered more from the UK now that I am back in France. The paints have the best coverage that I have seen from a miniature wargaming company - the white and the menoth white base cover anything in two good coats, while paints like Heartfire can cover most stuff in one good coat - simply amazing coverage (I guess the liquid pigment formula pays off). The colors are bright and dry satin - ideal for any fantasy / sci-fi modeller who is not after gritty realism (but of course you can always use matt varnish to solve the issue if you have that need). The inks are very rich, and you can achieve some impressive washes (I am waiting for the Flesh Wash by the way, since apparently it is very, very good from what I heard).

All right, let's see how my Fire Dragons Exarch turned out with P3 Paint...

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5333/img0598e.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/img0598e.jpg/)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/337/img0599ddv.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/img0599ddv.jpg/)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4888/img0600oqy.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/img0600oqy.jpg/)

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8769/img0601r.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/img0601r.jpg/)

So... How did I achieve the final result?

Here is the walkthrough:

Always use white primer - especially if you will be painting your miniature in a very colorfull paint scheme with light colors.
Basecoat the armour with P3 Heartfire, while the flame lance, the helmet, and some decorative elements are basecoated with P3 Thamar Black.
Mix P3 Brown Ink and P3 Yellow Ink with water in a 1 : 1 : 8 ratio. Wash the armour that was previously basecoated with Heartfire.
Once dry basecoat all the metallic areas with GW's Dwarven Bronze (only have Molten Bronze from P3 right now) and wash them with Devlan Mud. Highlight them with P3 Molten Bronze.
Highlight the armour with P3 Heartfire (since the previous layer was darkened by our wash) and then proceed to make extreme highlights with P3 Sulfuric Yellow.
Highlight the black elements with P3 Coal Black.
Gems are done in the classic technique - build up your colors from darkest to lightest, and then leave the white dot on top to indicate the light source (I am still working on this technique myself). I used green gems on the armour because Green has a very nice contrast with yellow and orange colors.
The base was done with MIG pigments and two VMC colors. I used German Grey to base the destroyed tank track and then highlighted it with Fieldblue. The concrete element was covered with MIG Concrete dry pigment, while the sand was colored by the Gulf War Sand Pigment and the Beach Sand Pigment. Some Light Dust Pigment was used to show light dusting on the boots.


In conclusion - I am very happy with Formula P3 paints, and I will gladly recommend them to anybody who is looking to throw away his or her GW paints or is just starting out. P3 is simply way better than GW in terms of paint - and one more thing - their pots are bigger, hold more paint, and do not dry out - because they are well sealed.

Shadow Queen
09-02-2009, 04:33 AM
I find most of the GW paints are wartery so I tend to mostly use the P3 range.

relasine
09-02-2009, 08:29 AM
I've been using P3 a lot this summer and have noticed a few things:

The paint starts to separate when they get too watered down. I'm often having trouble working with them when I want them at a milky consistency. This problem is compounded by the fact that will they dry on the brush very quickly, so you pretty much have to water them down, particularly when doing detail work. While I haven't yet tried the metallics, I've heard a lot of naysaying about them, but I have seen some excellent results from people using their Brass Balls. On the bright side, the coverage is spectacular and they have some excellent color choices. Before their Skorne, Khador Base, and Khador Highlight Reds came out, I hated painting anything in red. No more, my friends. While I do find the line lacking of specific colors that I end up having to buy from other companies (Reaper Dragon Gold, VMC Hull Red), they do have some unique selections like their Coal Black (almost a very dark blue/green), Heartfire, and Menoth White Highlight (a tad beneath white on the bone-side). There are a lot of good complements to the Citadel range as well for those patient enough to get in there and experiment, particularly the colors I just mentioned.

AoM
09-03-2009, 01:38 PM
Whenever you're thinning your paints, matte medium and/or glaze medium are your friends. I hardly ever add water to paint anymore. It just doesn't give me the consistency I want, whether it's Reaper Master Series or P3.

P3 is very nice paint line. Great coverage, silky feel, and stands up to a bit of handling before sealing it. It's also great fro 2 brush blending and wet blending. It's the main paint line I use.

The other paints I use are the Reaper Master Series. I love these as well, but you're asking for P3 reviews.

I can't stand the citadel paint. It's thick, and dries too fast. and the bottles are not designed well at all. The metallics are the only thing I like in the regular citadel paints, and I much prefer the RMS metallics to them. I will say that P3 Pig Iron is a far superior dark silver compared to Boltgun Metal. Without a lot of ink and shading, Pig Iron ends up looking like metal at scale. Boltgun just looks like metallic paint.

Menoth White Base and Menoth White Highlight will replace Bleach Bone and it's oddly green undertones for you. And you'll find that adding Menoth White Highlight into almost any paint recipe is a great way to lighten up colors without going to pastel like white has a tendency to do.

Servant
09-03-2009, 04:17 PM
From experience, I've found P3 and Reaper Master series as the reigning champions of all miniature paints I've tried. Having worked with Citadel for almost half a decade (not that Citadels are bad, mind you), they really made my paint jobs shine despite being armed with nothing but no-name synthetic brushes.

As stated before P3 is absolutely lovely to work with, silky smooth and blends like a dream at the expense of the slightly artificial-looking sheen that occurs when it dries. Particular standouts include Gun Corps Brown, Skorne Red (strong red that colors over black in 2 coats!), Frostbite (excellent basecoat for white) and Menoth White. Perhaps the weakest colors in the range are the greys and other browns in my opinion.

In the realm of greys and browns, Citadel does quite well.

Reaper Masters are all-around good, excellent coverage and perhaps the best metal colors around in Shadowed Steel and Aged Gold. Pure Black is what it says on the tin - the smoothest black I have had the pleasure to use. Haven't taken Pro Paints for a spin, but apparently they've got even better coverage but have a slight grainy texture.

Mananarepublic
09-03-2009, 10:16 PM
I use almost exclusively P3 paints and a few Rackham/GW (especially the GW washes). They are great!

I loved the old GW paints so I have also been interested in CdA's paints. I don't know how different a formula they have to P3 though since I've heard (not through experience though - mind that) that there are problems with the same colors (yellow/red). I do feel like the P3 reds have better coverage than the old GW did. They have one shade on the website that looks just like Worm purple - which would be awesome!!

/M

Siquid
09-03-2009, 11:18 PM
I love p3's armor wash. I use almost exclusively on all my dark colors. I find it helps create a much warmer grey tone, and it's decent n metallics too!