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Nabterayl
04-20-2010, 02:01 AM
Okay, trying to make up for my latest contribution to the thread hijacking rate around here:

For those of you just joining the conversation, the question being debated (at least as I understand it) is the nature of orky technical expertise. The three possible positions put forward so far:

Orky know-wots are like an STC - orks are programmed with a large number of schematics, which they instinctively (and usually sub-consciously) access in order to build their machines.
Orks are not programmed to build specific designs, but are programmed to instinctively improvise only certain types of machines.
Orks are not programmed to build machines, but are programmed with an instinctive (and usually sub-conscious) understanding of fundamental principles, allowing individual orks to synthesize almost any kind of machine according to their creativity and imagination.

Madness, as I understand him, is championing position #2. I, and I think Melissia, are championing position #3. Other forum denizens may be championing other things. Still other forum denizens may not care.

One of the pieces of evidence that has been offered is that all orks tend to make the same broad types of machines. For instance, while not all battlewagons are identical (indeed, it is possible that no two battlewagons have ever been identical), orks have a distinct tendency to build their armored fighting vehicles with front-heavy armor, tracks and/or wheels, and loud, smoke-belching engines. It has been suggested that this piece of evidence argues in favor of #2.

I contend that it argues in favor of #3, in two ways. First, while it is certainly true that orks seem to favor, say, tracks and wheels over anti-grav plates and jet engines, the very fact that orks have utilized anti-grav plates and jet engines in their ground vehicles suggests that their programming does not lock them into the tracks-and-wheels paradigm.

Second, I think the presence of certain trends in orky engineering can be more satisfactorily explained as an expression of ork psychology. We certainly know from the shokk attack gun that orky know-wots can build items that orks feel no need to build (e.g., the shokk attack gun proves that orks could build a weapon that teleports a bomb directly into the target ... but they generally don't build such weapons). I suggest that trends such as tracks-and-wheels and loud-and-smoky-engines can be explained by reference to that greatest of orky psychological imperatives: having fun. Assuming for the moment that an ork could build a grav-tank, I contend that he would not find a smooth-riding vehicle powered by efficient jet engines to be any fun, and thus wouldn't do it. On the other hand, from an orky perspective, tracks-and-wheels (particularly when combined with bad suspension) and loud-and-smoky-engines are loads of fun. Since orks do everything they do in order to have fun, it follows that most orks will favor tracks-and-wheels over grav plates, and favor loud-and-smoky-engines over quieter and more efficient jet engines.

Okay, that's my latest contribution. Have at it.

Kieranator K82
04-20-2010, 02:33 AM
I find #3 to be a more logical and reasonable explanation for the Orks' 'techspertise.'
The first is highly unlikely, as it would mean that the Ork Meks should all make identical things.
The second is a step in the right direction, although it doesn't account for Orky ingenuity. The likes of the Stompa, Deff Kopta and Tellyporta were pioneered by individual Meks.

eldargal
04-20-2010, 02:36 AM
Ditto for three, I think it makes the most sense. The fact that Orky technology has been seen to evolve to me suggests that they are programmed with the principles of technology, and given the right stimuli (ie war) they can come up with new and exciting ways of causing amusing carnage.

Madness
04-20-2010, 03:43 AM
Technically it makes no difference if it's 1 or 3, it's like asking "do the orks create noisy engines because they are programmed to like noisy engines or do they like noisy engines because they are programmed to build them that way", chicken and egg kinda dilemma.

We know Orks all share a common Kultur, and a culture is pretty central to all a race/society does, see Eldar for an example, Eldar COULD go and create far different type of technology, but they are culturally traditionalists and stuff like Void Spinners is only used by Biel-Tan because there's a cultural taboo that prevents the others from using such technology even if they have the means to.

My point here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=69526&postcount=75) was to point out how identical is the Ork Kultur all around the universe, and how that is not natural, even Hive Mind structures like Tyranids develop differences when separate strand evolve in separate situations.

Ork Kultur is fairly standard, see on Angelis, hardly anyone survived the crash, and as it is stated, there's no much oral tradition, so the society born on Angelis (aka gorkamorka, by the way) was a almost completely new one, yet, it featured the usual suspects, trukks, trakks, buggies, sluggas, shootas, burnas, and so on.

Relevant quote:

Thus primary technical skills are passed on genetically, rather than learned or taught in the fashion of Humans.

Orks don't learn. Orks don't teach. So how is an evolution possible?

Another quote:

Their scientific knowledge was intuitive and sometimes led them in bizarre and opposite directions. The existence of space itself was openly questioned, and even the true origin of the hulk wreckage and their own past was forgotten.

As you can see there are no solid scientific bases for Ork technology, they just go by their guts, and that's not a symptom of a rational behaviour, that's a symptom of instinctual behaviour.

Now most of you tend to take situations in which Orks appear to have invented, authored, created something unique, something that is the child of their very own personality and creativity (kreativity?), but the fact that even the most complex item (shokk attack gun, gargants, cybork bodies) is eventually repeated in every instance of separate settlements is a symptom that it's not actually a product of that precise Ork, but of the Ork Kulture as a lifestyle.

And I personally have no doubt that Ork Kulture in ALL its aspects (clan, castes, beliefs, superstitions, "science") is a product of the genetic encoding.

All of it, from Waaagh! to ZZap gun.

P.S.: Now, we could be arguing how much of a "wiggle room" there's to it, and that's something quite impossible to measure, but considering how constant are some elements, I think that the wiggle room is not too much. Of course we see how some Ork Clans tend to alter their behaviour when exposed to different cultures (Blood Axes for instance), but I don't have reason to believe that those "mutations" in the behaviour are so influential in the Kultur as a whole (Blood Axes are considered kind of sissies by Ork standards).

I see how hard it is to consider standard something so apparently ramshackle, something so crude and superficially inventive, but it's just a matter of looking past the superficial appearance.

Nabterayl
04-20-2010, 04:25 AM
Orks Kultur is fairly standard, see on Angelis, hardly anyone survived the crash, and as it is stated, there's no much oral tradition, so the society born on Angelis (aka gorkamorka, by the way) was a almost completely new one, yet, it featured the usual suspects, trukks, trakks, buggies, sluggas, shootas, burnas, and so on.
Sure, but those are just types of vehicles. You wouldn't say that armor didn't evolve over the 20th century because it featured the usual suspects, tanks.


Orks don't learn. Orks don't teach. So how is an evolution possible?
That quote doesn't say that orks are incapable of learning. It says that an ork acquires his "primary technical skills" by being born with them, but that doesn't mean that they can't be augmented by learning. An ork is also born knowing how to fight, but if he lives long enough, he'll learn from his battlefield experiences and becoming increasingly kunning.

Evolution is possible precisely because it is only an ork's primary technical skills that are inborn. If you're born knowing how to make a trukk, then all you can do is make trukks. If you're born with a working knowledge of various fields of physics and engineering, though, you can make all sorts of different things. That's how the evolution is possible - it's not an evolution of primary technical skills that we're talking about, but an evolution of actual machines-that-have-been-built.

That said, we clearly agree that ork kultur is broadly common across all orks, and that ork kultur has a limiting effect on the breadth of ingenuity. If it were otherwise, orks would be light-years ahead of the Imperium technologically - imagine the engineering that a race could achieve whose engineers were born with all the theory they need to build whatever they can conceive. The very fact that orky technology is as comparatively primitive as it is suggests that orky creativity is highly circumscribed in most areas.


Another quote:


As you can see there are no solid scientific bases for Ork technology, they just go by their guts, and that's not a symptom of a rational behaviour, that's a symptom of instinctual behaviour.
I'd say it's rather a symptom of creative behavior, but ...


Now most of you tend to take situations in which Orks appear to have invented, authored, created something unique, something that is the child of their very own personality and creativity (kreativity?), but the fact that even the most complex item (shokk attack gun, gargants, cybork bodies) is eventually repeated in every instance of separate settlements is a symptom that it's not actually a product of that precise Ork, but of the Ork Kulture as a lifestyle.
It sounds like we have basic agreement here that orky technology is the expression not of inborn schematics but of inborn expertise expressed through a common, and comparatively impoverished, kultur.


And I personally have no doubt that Ork Kulture in ALL its aspects (clan, castes, beliefs, superstitions, "science") is a product of the genetic encoding.

All of it, from Waaagh! to ZZap gun.
I have some doubt. I agree that there's almost undoubtedly culturally encoding as well as technical, but orks do seem to have an actual interstellar culture. Start a good fight in system A and before too long orks from system B will show up, having heard about the fight. I assume the actual information conduit is the Waaagh! manifesting itself as some sort of astrotelepathy, but whatever it is, it's surprisingly fast and reliable, and could be a conduit for the transmission of other culturally information as well. Which brings us to ...


P.S.: Now, we could be arguing how much of a "wiggle room" there's to it, and that's something quite impossible to measure, but considering how constant are some elements, I think that the wiggle room is not too much. Of course we see how some Ork Clans tend to alter their behaviour when exposed to different cultures (Blood Axes for instance), but I don't have reason to believe that those "mutations" in the behaviour are so influential in the Kultur as a whole (Blood Axes are considered kind of sissies by Ork standards).

I see how hard it is to consider standard something so apparently ramshackle, something so crude and superficially inventive, but it's just a matter of looking past the superficial appearance.
I think how "standard" ork technology is depends partially on your point of view. There are certain concepts which just seem to make sense to orks, but those aren't necessarily human concepts. It's like colors - one culture may call a color blue, while another culture calls it green. Similarly, if you have a walker above a certain size threshold but below another size threshold, it seems to just make cultural sense to an ork to call that walker a "stompa." The two walkers could share almost nothing in common design-wise except for having two legs and being within a certain height bracket, and a human might well look at the two and assume they were different classes of walker. But to an ork, they'd both be stompaz.

Similarly, if an ork looked at Predator and a Piranha side by side, he'd probably call them both "wagons" - to him, they're the same class of vehicle. But to many other cultures, a Predator and a Piranha are two different classes of vehicle.

Or to look at it from the other point of view, consider humans looking at an eldar Falcon. We call it a "tank." But it isn't a tank - it doesn't look anything like a tank, it isn't armed anything like a tank, it certainly doesn't move like a tank, and in battle it doesn't behave like a tank. But we humans think of all armored fighting vehicles as belonging to one of a few categories, and tank is the closest fit, so we apply the label "tank" to it. But restricting our vocabulary to utility vehicle, APC, IFV, self-propelled artillery, and tank (to give one example of a human AFV paradigm) isn't evidence for the uniformity of the universe's armor any more than restricting our vocabulary to buggy, trukk, wagon, gunwagon, battlewagon, and battle fortress would be.

Ferrett
04-20-2010, 05:14 AM
That said, we clearly agree that ork kultur is broadly common across all orks, and that ork kultur has a limiting effect on the breadth of ingenuity. If it were otherwise, orks would be light-years ahead of the Imperium technologically - imagine the engineering that a race could achieve whose engineers were born with all the theory they need to build whatever they can conceive. The very fact that orky technology is as comparatively primitive as it is suggests that orky creativity is highly circumscribed in most areas.


I agree with Nab, except for the above. Imperial and Ork technology are merely a sidestep to the left. Where as one covers the workings of an engine - the other revels in it to see. Where one sacrifices power for relative quietness, the other will chuck out as much noise as possible. Its about target design.

gorepants
04-20-2010, 05:29 AM
There is a significant difference between 1 and 3 - 1 posits that orks have a fixed set of templates to work with and 3 posits that they have primal urges and their technology is an expression of this. 1 (and 2) fit in with some of the sillier fluff about the whole of everything be someone's plot and everyone else just being pawns. 3 is a more naturalstic outlook.

The big problem I have with 1 and 2 is that they say everything about ork tech is like it is because that's what someone said it would be (same for culture, etc). This is a little at odds with how biology works. I'm much more comfortable with the idea ork tech is the some of their attitudes and natural abilities. From this attitude, why is ork tech so similar? Same reason human tech is - they have a narrowlly disributed set of prime drives - aggression, hierarchical society, love of noise and speed. When the odd outlier comes along and adds to this an excellent ability to intuit technology, they will make things that fullfill their primal drives. Further similarity will come from orkoporphism (eg the look of kans, gargants).

Although they can teach and learn to at least a limited degree (cf runtherds, and I'm sure I've read of mekboys passing information to each other), a fragmented society (since they come from spores, orks may appear without a functioning society to grow up in) means that direct transmission of technology across the whole of orkdom is impossible.

That dispirit orks share similar sets of klans fits (perhaps awkwardly) in with a simple evolutionary model - I imagine them being like jocks and nerds. That they are given the same names is simply an imperial construct. Similar for ork totems (look at the homogeneity of human symbology). They also get a lot of design inspiration from peoples they encounter, and since in the fluff, most of them are dealing with imperial humans, and imperial humanity is presented as fairly homogenous, they stuff inspired by that contact will be pretty similar too.

What is more difficult is that similar klans in disprit tribes addopt similar symbols, have the same gods and speek the same language (I think this is true anyway). While the other similaties are analogous to the similarities between disconnected human groups, these are very much not. I think is falacious to say that because they share these things they must be programmed to believe in them.

I may be biased by knowing a little of biology, cog-science and language learning, but I don't see the idea of detailed genetic programming fitting in with the 40K genetic science model. It appears little changed from what we currently understand, exept for additonal properties (eg psykers) and the ability (lost or otherwise) to manipulate it. From this the ability to program an ork to believe in a specific pair of gods called gork and mork is internally inconsitent. Nab's suggestion of the Waagh forming a greater ork zeitgeist fits more readily into the 40K universe. In this way common ork culture can spread across the galaxy. This can also explain the lack of surface divergence in the ork design aethsetic (which is much narrower when compared across human cultures) since when a mek has an idea, he would be sharing a set of aesthetic values subconsiously with all of orkdom.

GW covers the divergence by defining ork stuff as 'being kind of like' whatever they are describing.

Of course the main reason it all looks the same is that GW have a limited number of artists and they are going to draw and sculpt every single different ork thing ever.

Old_Paladin
04-20-2010, 06:08 AM
I still don't understand how in one breath people can say that ork kulture/clans are an inborn nature; then in another talk about Feral Orks and the Gorker/Morker division on Angelous.

I see Orks a lot like Kroot; they have a genetic memory.
Orks have a basic understand in their genes, but when something new comes along they tend to copy what they like; after it's done enough it tends to be part of their genetic sub-conscious.

You keep saying over and over, they use wheels/tracks. You know why they do that? IT WORKS! Humans have used the wheel (or axle) for at least 5000 years. It's very simple and very effective.
Orks have anti-grave, but why waste the time and materials when you could build several trukks instead. Plus tires make the vehicle bump around, which orks find fun; and treads make heavy, clunkly, grinding noises which orks like as well.


Gorepants makes a good point about saying some Meks get together to share info; they opposite is true as well; some meks keep other Meks away, so they cannot steal his ideas. If every idea was already genetically encoded, ideas couldn't be stolen.

As for language Orks tend to speak two: orkish (which sounds like grunts to humans) and crude low gothic. Clearly the later must have been learned at some point; they couldn't have been programmed for a language that hadn't been developed yet.

Madness
04-20-2010, 07:09 AM
When discussing fictional enviroments I go by 2 principles:
* Occam's Razor: The simplest solution is the most probable
* Conservative deductions: I try not to add stuff that's not explicitly there, because that's not canon, that's wishful thinking (IE. Astropathic Hive Mind)

Further premise:
As far as I know, the only way we are able to judge something is by comparison, if something is taller than us, it's tall, if something is smarter than us, it's smart.

We are obviously comparing human society to ork society and we tend to project similarities because that's what we do, but in order to define Orks we have to focus on what makes them different.

Sure, even humans tend to similar designs due to similar needs and drives, but humans also have an oral tradition and a penchant for archiving and distributing knowledge.

So where does the human model of development diverge from the Orks?
A conservative analysis tells us that:
* Orks don't really keep record of their stuff, the only oral tradition we have track of is about legends (Runtherdz)
* Orks are pretty jealous of their stuff, be it physical or intellectual property (IE. Meks don't share weapon designs)
* Orks aren't too good at replicating previous efforts, sort of forgetting how the did something in the first place (see Doks often botching "serjeries" they already did several times)

All of this and many other points tell me that Orks have no "technology" to speak of, they simply do stuff, most of the times not realizing what they are doing until they are actually done (of course orks being orks they will never admit it and claim it was what they intended to do all along).

This means that every time they do something it's not creation, it's invention, and I can't really understand how a guy that only accidentally manages to create a working gun that doesn't explode when used is able to create a perfectly functioning Mega-Gargant.

Unless there was something else driving his craftmanship. Now, an astropathic link might be an explaination for all of this, but it's a much less conservative interpretation than just reading what the authors wrote. It's in their dna.

Now, let's see if I can give an opinion on singular quotes.

The very fact that orky technology is as comparatively primitive as it is suggests that orky creativity is highly circumscribed in most areas.That very limit is what I think is the "coding", I don't mean for said "code" to be a series of blueprints, but if I create a race that likes noisy vehicles and embed the knowledge to create an internal combustion engine, the basics for fuels, and transmission, they will eventually create trukks, traks and buggies.
Similarly, if I want to create a Mutant Ninja Turtle that can make pizza, I either put in the recipe for pizza, or give it a craving for pizza and the knowledge necessary to "invent" the pizza recipe.


I'd say it's rather a symptom of creative behavior, but ...Creativity is an urge, it's not an end or a mean. Creativity gives you the drive, not the tools. Instinct or rationality give you tools.


A and before too long orks from system B will show up, having heard about the fight. I assume the actual information conduit is the Waaagh! manifesting itself as some sort of astrotelepathy, but whatever it is, it's surprisingly fast and reliable, and could be a conduit for the transmission of other culturally information as well.Yes, we've seen Waaagh! being discussed as a Zeitgeist, but it's something of a visceral and emotional thing, I don't think that it goes as far as transmitting scientific principles or lexicon. (Again it might be possible, but I want to be conservative about it)


3 is a more naturalistic outlook.Orks are not natural by any means, they were bionegineered and that's pretty established, so what is natural doesn't really apply. And that pretty much invalidated all the other points. If Orks were a race that naturally evolved to that point I would agree with what you said, but there's pretty solid evidence of tampering, so natural evolution doesn't apply as much as "intelligent design" does (in this case, mind you, I'm being tongue in cheek because I find it amusing, I'm not supporting unscientific stuff).


Plus tires make the vehicle bump around, which orks find fun; and treads make heavy, clunkly, grinding noises which orks like as well.See the TMNT argument.


Gorepants makes a good point about saying some Meks get together to share info; they opposite is true as well; some meks keep other Meks away, so they cannot steal his ideas.I honestly never read of such things happening, afaik Meks are super jealous, but then again, some Orkish stuff is stuff that can hardly be "invented" in few generation of Meks discussing things. If Orks REALLY had any desire or capacity for independent development they would be aeons ahead of any other race and a complete and utter defeat would be unthinkable.

Which brings me to my last point. Independence.
I know that Orks create stuff. I also know that Brainboyz (I like it better than Old Ones) gave them the means to do it. The question we're actually asking is: "Can Orks create stuff outside of what Brainboyz meant them to?"
In order to do that they need to have 2 things, the ability to do it, and the will to do it.
Finding out if they are actually able to is very hard, so I'll focus on their will to do it.
Basically it's a discussion of free will. Do Orks possess a free will outside of the "destiny" that Brainboyz gave them?

There's a long philosophical discussion about whether real world people have a true free will, and that we do not have the luck of knowing whether or not a race of celestial beings actually engineered us or not.

Therefore I'd say that since we DO know that Orks are nothing but a weapon created by the Old Ones (now I call them Old Ones since they look like bad Lex Luthor-like guys) they do NOT have a free will.

Orks are meant to be warlike and a constant threat, but a threat that is self-regulating none the less. After all, who designs a weapon that they can't control themself?

ashnaile
04-20-2010, 08:22 AM
One of the pieces of evidence that has been offered is that all orks tend to make the same broad types of machines. For instance, while not all battlewagons are identical (indeed, it is possible that no two battlewagons have ever been identical), orks have a distinct tendency to build their armored fighting vehicles with front-heavy armor, tracks and/or wheels, and loud, smoke-belching engines. It has been suggested that this piece of evidence argues in favor of #2.





I dont think that supports #2 at all really.

Id say the orks are more like #3, They have an innate understanding of the principles of tech

The reason why they always seem to build the same kinds of stuff? Well every single ork wants pretty much the exact same thing, to fight kill and have ded killy stuff, of course the front armor is the heaviest ... thats where you drive into their tanks ...

Theyre loud and smoke belching because to orks, a thing being fearsome and loud is directly proportional to how deadly it is, how loud a gun is is as important to an ork as how big its bullet is ...

Old_Paladin
04-20-2010, 08:24 AM
I'll use your pizza example; since I think we have similar thoughts but express them at two opposite extremes.
Orks do have genetic drives and knowledge, but I think its much more general, and you feel its more specific.

But, back to pizzas. Even with the innate ability to make a pizza, there will be some experimentation that will create non-pizzas. If you take the dough and add oil, diced tomato and herbs: you get a brushetta. Use only garlic with/without cheese and cut it into long thin slices you get garlic fingers. Fold the pizza over and seal it before cooking makes a calzone.
Your original gene-code didn't say make pizzas, garlic fingers, calzones, etc; just pizza.
Orks are like this; the gene-code isn't make gargants, trukks, kans, etc. Their genes allow them to make crude engines, hydrolics, combustable chemicals, etc. And they take the general info and make it into something useful. This usually takes the end forms of Gargants for the current generation of orks, but there is no really limit; and the fact that they display learning means they can continue expanding on ideas (like pizza dough to cake batter, opening whole new fields).

Madness
04-20-2010, 08:54 AM
Bruschetta. I'm italian man, don't be butcherin'. :P

Yes, I agree that there's no specific goal set for their stuff, but eventually having the same skills, the same goals, and the same underlying culture drives you to the same(ish) result. Specially if we consider that part of the skills/goals/culture were artifically implanted into you (as opposed to naturally evolved).

So yes, you gravitate toward pizza, and end up with many close cousins, but you never end up with a Large Hadron Collider instead of a pizza.

The original question (I think) was "do Ork actually innovate?" to which I respond "no they just rehash the stuff they already knew towards stuff they were supposed to build".

Also, I'm hungry now.

Melissia
04-20-2010, 11:28 AM
Orks don't learn.
Allow me to posit some formal logic.

Fact: Experimentation is done in order to learn something (definition of experimentation involves testing and investigating)

Inference: If Orks don't learn, then Mekboyz wouldn't experiment.

Fact: Codex: Orks says Mekboyz experiment.

Conclusion: Ergo, Orks must have the capacity to learn.

Inquisitor Soren
04-20-2010, 11:36 AM
I think it boils down to orks being predisposed to build certain things honestly. Orks like fast, so they build something fast. Orks like loud, so they make the fast thing loud. Orks like being jostled around, so they put big wheels and poor suspension on it. Orks like shooty, so they strap a gun on it. Orks like getting to their target alive so they put more armor on it. Orks like smashing things so they find a way to put a giant wrecking ball on it.

Sorry rambling. My belief is that Orks have certain techno-logic know-how encoded in their genome, but the rest of their genome encourages certain designs as well based on their behavior. This is why we such 'standardization' amongst orks, they are all predisposed to like certain things. Orks like loud, fast, red, exploding things, in fact they love them! Some orks may like shooty things more than fast things, some may like red things more than loud things. Each ork probably has his own preference for things and this is why we see orks so spread out in what they do and how they do it.

To say orks don't learn is probably foolish. We can see in the ork codex that our green friends learn new tactics based on what works and what doesn't, they just do so through trial and error rather than through simple logic. Orks may throw themselves over a cliff to get too a foe below, but assuming they survive they will probably develop a way that makes it quicker and safer just so more orks can do it and get there next time!


So my thoughts are, Orks do innovate but they are genetically predisposed to create certain things do to their personalities and genetic design. Also the Waaagh! is almost certainly a form of psychic beacon that draws more and more orks acting like an instinctual form of Astropathy, the bigger and better the fight the more orks will be drawn to it. The penultimate war-machine designed to bring the Necrons down through sheer force of stupidity. ^^ Orsk We Love You.

Melissia
04-20-2010, 11:39 AM
You mean sheer awesomeness. Because Orks aren't necessarily stupid, they just have an EXTREMELY divergent cultural viewpoint from our own.

Madness
04-20-2010, 11:44 AM
If Orks don't learn, then Mekboyz wouldn't experiment.

Codex: Orks says Mekboyz experiment.

Ergo, Orks must have the capacity to learn.

Experimentation doesn't mean drawing conclusions.One can experiment without learning anything in the process. That's a deductive fallacy.

@Soren: I still think that the "learn" is just apparent, they probably had that tactic in the head all along, they just found out about it.

Cue philosophical debate about whether ideas are discoveries or inventions.

Inquisitor Soren
04-20-2010, 11:54 AM
@ Madness: No you could be right, they could be ideas that they just 'remember' but I feel its kinda strange to 'limit' a bioweapon in that way. The race that made the Eldar would probably facepalm if they limited what their penunltimate survivor/weapon in such a way that they only have so many design ideas and could not learn new ones. It seems kinda goofy for such a wise and all-powerful race to do something like that. But it is possible nonetheless, no matter how advanced humanity is I'm sure we will goof so I don't doubt it could have happened.

As for the thought of discoveries or inventions? Eh who knows one could argue either and only waste their time, thought only matters if it leads to action in the end. =p (Does not like philosophical debates despite coming from such a family.)

Melissia
04-20-2010, 11:54 AM
Experimentation doesn't mean drawing conclusions.One can experiment without learning anything in the process. That's a deductive fallacy.

The entire purpose behind experimenting is to learn. If they had no capacity to learn they would not likely even attempt to experiment. Also, you're ignoring the current canon which gives specific examples of how Orks learn.

If you're just going to go around ignoring the canon fluff, then it's rather pointless to argue with you. So, do you care about canon, or are you going to argue your point of view instead? I do want to know, because they are mutually exclusive and if you don't care about canon I'll just ignore you in this thread. We've repeated ourselves so many times, and it's getting kinda annoying and boring.

Old_Paladin
04-20-2010, 11:58 AM
The original question (I think) was "do Ork actually innovate?" to which I respond "no they just rehash the stuff they already knew towards stuff they were supposed to build".

Maybe innovate is the wrong term, as an ork might not create an original idea out of thin air.
However, they are inovative enough to take alien technologies and include them in their own works to make something new.
This means its a technology they weren't "supposed to build," it's something beyond their 'original' scope.
If they were 'supposed' to build Gargants, they would have done so long before seeing imperial Titans; but they didn't.

Likewise, they new Kil-series Tanks, from forgeworld.
The fluff says that they are a whole new concept of ork craftmanship, never before seen by imperial forces. Made by the infamous Murder-Meks (I forget which planet) using captured forgeworld assembly-lines and reverse engineered technology (the main example being the loading gear for the Kil-Krusha Kannon; orks have never made such a system, until they studied similar imperial systems).

Inquisitor Soren
04-20-2010, 12:06 PM
Old Paladin's statement does support what I believe then. The Old One's designed the Orks to cannibalize any tech there is and use it. Which in theory could explain why the Necrons stuff all teleports away, lol, could you imagine that at one point the Orks may have had Necron tech?

The more I think on it the more it makes sense to give the Orks the ability to take any tech and use it for themselves even if they cannot understand how they use it, they just do. That seems more like an approach an all-knowing race would take right? Limiting your bio-weapon only makes sense if you have already won the war and need an 'off switch' for it. And since the Old Ones weren't really winning, more like losing more slowly I would think you would go all out and go for the throat in any weapon you design. If all else fails M.A.D. is the way to go I would say.

Nabterayl
04-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Sure, even humans tend to similar designs due to similar needs and drives, but humans also have an oral tradition and a penchant for archiving and distributing knowledge.

So where does the human model of development diverge from the Orks?
A conservative analysis tells us that:
* Orks don't really keep record of their stuff, the only oral tradition we have track of is about legends (Runtherdz)
* Orks are pretty jealous of their stuff, be it physical or intellectual property (IE. Meks don't share weapon designs)
* Orks aren't too good at replicating previous efforts, sort of forgetting how the did something in the first place (see Doks often botching "serjeries" they already did several times)
Focusing on how or whether orks progress the state of their technology kind of forces us to question how orks know things, I think. Everybody seems to know about Ghazghkull, for instance, but ... how? Large as his Waaagh! may be in terms of sheer number of boyz, it isn't very large in astrographic terms, so it can't be that enough orks have rotated through his Waaagh! for veterans to spread the news by word of mouth (and in any case, if an ork found himself in the biggest Waaagh! in history, why would he leave?). Gargants are a similar problem: everybody seems to know about them, but the codex tells us that the original idea came from one identifiable mekboy. How does a race with little to no directed space travel spread ideas like that?

Whether it's the Waaagh!, space hulk express, or some other mechanism, it's clear that actual ideas get transmitted among even very far-flung ork tribes. I'd put forward this transmission of ideas, rather than the transmission of schematics, as the mechanism for what little orky advancement we see (and I do think we see some). I don't think that mek A builds a gargant and then transmits (whether by Waaagh!, space hulk, black box, or whatever) to mek B, "Hey, here's how you build what I just did!" Instead, I think what happens is that mek A builds a gargant and mek B hears about it (again, however it is that orks hear about interstellar news), and thinks to himself, "Wow, what an incredibly orky idea! I bet I could build something like that if I tried!"

Every now and then - very rarely, I admit - an ork seems to come up with a brand new idea or incremental advance that seems to appeal to the ork psyche. The gargant is one of them, which presumably has such widespread appeal for religious reasons. The shokk attack gun seems to be another. Ditto with large-scale teleporters. But the critical quality those things have is, I think, that they seem particularly orky (as opposed to particularly effective, for instance). If ork technology was going to advance from its current state, I think it would be in that way - somebody would come up with a machine that embodied some aspect of orkyness in a way that nobody had thought of before, other meks would hear about it, and be inspired to try their own hands at creating something similar.

Madness
04-20-2010, 12:39 PM
@ Madness: No you could be right, they could be ideas that they just 'remember' but I feel its kinda strange to 'limit' a bioweapon in that way.Actually it's the starting point of my reasoning, if I make a biological weapon, I'm basically making a supersized virus, and if I make a virus, I try to give it limits, or at least, control mechanisms. The spores are described as able to figure out when they should create something


The entire purpose behind experimenting is to learn. If they had no capacity to learn they would not likely even attempt to experiment. Also, you're ignoring the current canon which gives specific examples of how Orks learn.For a scientific mind surely, but for a Mek/Dok/Runtherd experimentation is the only way to achieve results, in fact everything they do is a one-off experiment. Learning from an experiment requires a second -more reflective- stage, one that doesn't seem too Orky to me. This is corroborated by the fact that they tend to fail in creating stuff they have been creating all their life on a consistent basis. "*sigh* Orks... they never learn do they" is a fitting line.


However, they are inovative enough to take alien technologies and include them in their own works to make something new.
This means its a technology they weren't "supposed to build," it's something beyond their 'original' scope.That would mean Brainboyz would refrain from using the enemy tools against them, possible, but not too smart.

If they were 'supposed' to build Gargants, they would have done so long before seeing imperial Titans; but they didn't.

Likewise, they new Kil-series Tanks, from forgeworld.
The fluff says that they are a whole new concept of ork craftmanship, never before seen by imperial forces. Made by the infamous Murder-Meks (I forget which planet) using captured forgeworld assembly-lines and reverse engineered technology (the main example being the loading gear for the Kil-Krusha Kannon; orks have never made such a system, until they studied similar imperial systems).Again, necessity clause, Orks build stuff when they need stuff, they seem to wage war on a balanced scale, not many fights are depicted one gargant vs. a large infantry based army.


Old Paladin's statement does support what I believe then. The Old One's designed the Orks to cannibalize any tech there is and use it. Which in theory could explain why the Necrons stuff all teleports away, lol, could you imagine that at one point the Orks may have had Necron tech?

The more I think on it the more it makes sense to give the Orks the ability to take any tech and use it for themselves even if they cannot understand how they use it, they just do. That seems more like an approach an all-knowing race would take right? Limiting your bio-weapon only makes sense if you have already won the war and need an 'off switch' for it. And since the Old Ones weren't really winning, more like losing more slowly I would think you would go all out and go for the throat in any weapon you design. If all else fails M.A.D. is the way to go I would say.
Yeah but what purpose does it serve to create a weapon to win a war only to then succumb to said weapon when the Orkish version of Skynet comes online?

Madness
04-20-2010, 12:54 PM
Focusing on how or whether orks progress the state of their technology kind of forces us to question how orks know things, I think. Everybody seems to know about GhazghkullThis is true for space-faring orks, and for them word of mouth is a fair guess (with Freebooterz being the main tattletales?), but there's no mention of them in isolated settlements.
Heck you'd think that someone on Angelis would discuss such personalities, instead they only know the local boyz, and Gork and Mork obviously.


Gargants are a similar problem: everybody seems to know about them, but the codex tells us that the original idea came from one identifiable mekboy. How does a race with little to no directed space travel spread ideas like that?You already know my POV on this.


Whether it's the Waaagh!, space hulk express, or some other mechanism, it's clear that actual ideas get transmitted among even very far-flung ork tribes.Again, I don't see it happening. Consider that it's not just ideas, it's ideas, names, symbols, glyphs, legends...


But the critical quality those things have is, I think, that they seem particularly orky (as opposed to particularly effective, for instance). If ork technology was going to advance from its current state, I think it would be in that way - somebody would come up with a machine that embodied some aspect of orkyness in a way that nobody had thought of before, other meks would hear about it, and be inspired to try their own hands at creating something similar.And that orkiness requirement has me thinking. How is it that all ork stuff is orky, humans do things in a dishuman way at times, but orks always "deliver".

I might be a conspiracy theorist, but I think it's a pattern.

And since I know where Orks got (part of) their patterns, I tend to attribute it all in one place. It's simple and it's not a stretch. Adding more ways is a fun addition, one that I'd accept in fan fiction, but one that isn't conservative.

Having Orks as actual innovators leaves too many loose ends, such as why with such a great head-start they STILL manage to lose wars ("Orkses iz never beaten in battle" is a funny catchphrase but not too true).

I know Eldar have limits (population and cultural ones), and similarly I know why every other race has them. If we posit that Orks are actually able to technologically progress in a free way I can't really see a SIMPLE limit. And I prefer a simple explanation to a complex one.

Inquisitor Soren
04-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Yeah but what purpose does it serve to create a weapon to win a war only to then succumb to said weapon when the Orkish version of Skynet comes online?

If you believe you have lost the war, then I personally would make sure my enemy is absolutely unable to win the war as well. By creating a constantly growing, adapting, and ever changing force you have, in theory made it so the enemy is unable to win, even if you lose.

I feel that would be the exact tactic used in creating the Orks. I am screwed but so are you. A kind of desperate spite from the losing foe.


Again, necessity clause, Orks build stuff when they need stuff, they seem to wage war on a balanced scale, not many fights are depicted one gargant vs. a large infantry based army.

Hmm I would actually wager this one is fairly for story telling reasons rather than it has never actually happened honestly. If we look for a in-universe answer I would venture that the Orks would rather kill infantry in hand to hand if they had a chance, so they use the Gargants to butcher titans/heavy armor/things to tough to whack with a choppa.


Actually it's the starting point of my reasoning, if I make a biological weapon, I'm basically making a supersized virus, and if I make a virus, I try to give it limits, or at least, control mechanisms. The spores are described as able to figure out when they should create something

This one goes back to my original thought. The Old Ones and their Eldar were already losing, so they most likely opted simply to make a fail safe to destroy/stall/wound/weaken the Necrons. I personally believe that the Old Ones made the Tyranids after they fled and saw the Orks were not going to cut it, but that is a Whole Other thread. I see the Orks as the weapon of the desperate no sane, non-desperate man would create the Orks. Unless there was something worse, in this case the Orks are the lesser of two evils I would say. Orks could almost certainly have been handled by the Old Ones if they ever went rogue. But if you read Ork fluff they seem to revere the 'Brainboys' that made them, maybe in this way they built a failsafe into them. Orks respect big and green. And the Old Ones were said to be both of those. lol

Old_Paladin
04-20-2010, 12:59 PM
I'm starting to feel like Mel here;
Most of us are giving quotes and paraphrases; but Madness, you're just giving us your opinions and feelings.
Just because you would create orks in a certain way if you were a brainboy doesn't mean that thats how the brainboys did it, or thats how orks are.
Orks clearly act in ways you say they should not be capable of.

And like Mel, until I see some actual canon information, I'm dropping out. The love a good discussion and debate; but it's pointless if it's facts against opinion and fanfiction.

Nabterayl
04-20-2010, 01:02 PM
If we posit that Orks are actually able to technologically progress in a free way I can't really see a SIMPLE limit. And I prefer a simple explanation to a complex one.
I'm not positing that orks are able to progress technologically in a free way. But even you concede that meks are born with skills rather than schematics, right?

I think culture having the side effect of limiting orky innovation is a simpler explanation than postulating deliberately engineered limits on orky know-wots.

EDIT:
Again, I don't see it happening. Consider that it's not just ideas, it's ideas, names, symbols, glyphs, legends...
True. But ork and eldar language and culture bear very few similarities, which doesn't fit with the all-designed-at-the-source hypothesis. A number of other aspects of ork kultur don't really fit the designed-at-the-source hypothesis, either. A love of fungus beer? Pit fights?

Madness
04-20-2010, 01:07 PM
If you believe you have lost the war, then I personally would make sure my enemy is absolutely unable to win the war as well. By creating a constantly growing, adapting, and ever changing force you have, in theory made it so the enemy is unable to win, even if you lose.

I feel that would be the exact tactic used in creating the Orks. I am screwed but so are you. A kind of desperate spite from the losing foe.That's it, I'm never voting for you.

Jokes aside, that's kind of a d*ck move, I mean not only you'd screw the enemy and yourself, but also all the other races you created. That's a golden age superman level of d*ckery.


Hmm I would actually wager this one is fairly for story telling reasons rather than it has never actually happened honestly. If we look for a in-universe answer I would venture that the Orks would rather kill infantry in hand to hand if they had a chance, so they use the Gargants to butcher titans/heavy armor/things to tough to whack with a choppa.Out of universe, absolutely. It's just a literary device, but as a continuity analyst (I'm getting cards printed online) I'd say that the orkish need for a fair fight is one of said control mechanisms.


This one goes back to my original thought. The Old Ones and their Eldar were already losing, so they most likely opted simply to make a fail safe to destroy/stall/wound/weaken the Necrons. I personally believe that the Old Ones made the Tyranids after they fled and saw the Orks were not going to cut it, but that is a Whole Other thread. I see the Orks as the weapon of the desperate no sane, non-desperate man would create the Orks. Unless there was something worse, in this case the Orks are the lesser of two evils I would say. Orks could almost certainly have been handled by the Old Ones if they ever went rogue. But if you read Ork fluff they seem to revere the 'Brainboys' that made them, maybe in this way they built a failsafe into them. Orks respect big and green. And the Old Ones were said to be both of those. lolI share your hypothesis about the Tyranids, but it's a wild guess, so I'm shy to say it out loud.

You seem to see a danger in the Ork beings that I don't really see, I mean, they didn't take over the universe, and they have been around for almost as long as every other race did, so they aren't that dangerous, are they?

Madness
04-20-2010, 01:11 PM
I'm not positing that orks are able to progress technologically in a free way. But even you concede that meks are born with skills rather than schematics, right?

I think culture having the side effect of limiting orky innovation is a simpler explanation than postulating deliberately engineered limits on orky know-wots.
I can't really say if it's an explicit set of designs, or if it's something that they intended to be the result of lateral constraints. Oddboyz are surely born with skills, but they seem to be practical with an almost complete lack of theory parts. And yes shaping cultural behavior IS a simpler way to channel a society than actually hardwire the specific steps.

Fellend
04-20-2010, 01:46 PM
Notice how he is avoiding the canon issue?

But I don't think they have a need for a fair fight. I think they just have sucky logistics and most prefer the thrill of bashing things up close and personal (or shoot them up close and personal) compared to sitting in the relative safety of a Gargant and blast stuff away no matter how big the boom is

Also, transporting and keeping gargant that is power by non-futuristic means running must be such a burden. I don't really see them mining for oil (i know they have slaves doing it) I don't see them stealing all oil out of vehicles. Gargants and other things are just a burden, a neccessary and fun burden while you face other titans but after that. Well it's more fun to bash heads in.
(this is supported by their statlines as well, they were clearly designed to be melee warriors)

And still there's many examples of the orks creating new technologies, which seems to go against the whole precoded theory.
And once again, they are creating different weapons, sure they are called the same names because it provides the same function but one burna might be built using fuel, another burna might be built by salvaging the warp core of a a downed eldar ship a third might be built using tyranid pyrovore glands.
It's clearly new inventions they just share a simular function

Madness
04-20-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm also avoiding stuff like stating that the sun is kinda warm and discussions about migratory paths of pigeons, I stick to what's relevant and not obvious.

Fellend
04-20-2010, 02:46 PM
So basically, you are ignoring obvious facts that goes against your argument because it's not relevant?

Melissia
04-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Which is precisely why I'm not bothering to argue with him. Any idea, any bit of fluff, anything that disagrees with his point is irrelevant. So basically he only cares about old no-longer-canon stuff that supports his idea, not the new canon that supercedes it. It's like if I tried to argue that there was no Convocation of Nephilim (which I have never done, mind)...

You know you're doing it Madness.

gorepants
04-20-2010, 08:00 PM
* Orks are pretty jealous of their stuff, be it physical or intellectual property (IE. Meks don't share weapon designs)

Sorry, better would be, big meks steal ideas from smaller meks (or anyone they can sneek a look at).


* Orks aren't too good at replicating previous efforts, sort of forgetting how the did something in the first place (see Doks often botching "serjeries" they already did several times)

If you have ever taught you would see this is typical learning behaviour - orks are naturally very intuative, and while learning, being intuative does not make you skillful. Only practice will do this, and orks don't practice. They can also make factories, probably not ISO certifiable. The workers would be mostly slaves and grots, who have a greater ability to learn (but are more likely to be stupid).


All of this and many other points tell me that Orks have no "technology" to speak of, they simply do stuff, most of the times not realizing what they are doing until they are actually done (of course orks being orks they will never admit it and claim it was what they intended to do all along).

This is actually how most science works. A lot of 'I kind of want this to happen, lets see'. For example, I was working on some network theory for runtime optimisation of graph clustering of semantic models, but published a paper on some interesting properties that reconciled several statistical early language learning models using the structural properties produced by different semantic relationships. And damn straight that's what I wanted!


That very limit is what I think is the "coding", I don't mean for said "code" to be a series of blueprints, but if I create a race that likes noisy vehicles and embed the knowledge to create an internal combustion engine, the basics for fuels, and transmission, they will eventually create trukks, traks and buggies.
Similarly, if I want to create a Mutant Ninja Turtle that can make pizza, I either put in the recipe for pizza, or give it a craving for pizza and the knowledge necessary to "invent" the pizza recipe.
...
That very limit is what I think is the "coding", I don't mean for said "code" to be a series of blueprints, but if I create a race that likes noisy vehicles and embed the knowledge to create an internal combustion engine, the basics for fuels, and transmission, they will eventually create trukks, traks and buggies.
Similarly, if I want to create a Mutant Ninja Turtle that can make pizza, I either put in the recipe for pizza, or give it a craving for pizza and the knowledge necessary to "invent" the pizza recipe.
...
Orks are not natural by any means, they were bionegineered and that's pretty established, so what is natural doesn't really apply. And that pretty much invalidated all the other points. If Orks were a race that naturally evolved to that point I would agree with what you said, but there's pretty solid evidence of tampering, so natural evolution doesn't apply as much as "intelligent design" does (in this case, mind you, I'm being tongue in cheek because I find it amusing, I'm not supporting unscientific stuff).

The problem with this is that imprinting something so specific does not really make sense, even in 40k's science model. I agree that orks are genetically engineered mushroom men, but the ability to code for specific things and have them last millennia or eons is troubling. Since orks reproduce and are not clones, there must be some degree of DNA variance since the differences cannot be explained soley by environment. This means that there would have to be no change in parts of the DNA that provide not critical functionality (eg the pizza part) over this time. Since there is no need for this on a majority of worlds (ie uninhabited or low-tech worlds) where simple muscle will suffice in keeping orks alive.

The other part is your coding must survive the environment. The problem with your pizza turtles is that pizza is a societal construct, and (assuming brain theory of mind) is imprinted from the environment. What can be coded is the ability to detect flavour, make tools, and like certain types of things, but they may end up with pide, pasties or a whole lot of other similar things. (OK, this isn't a very well made point - the summary is that it's nigh on impossible to code specifics for artifacts, even when you can code lower level things).

If however, you code for excellent spacial reasoning (useful for both fighting and manufacturing), for creativity (though this would be recessive so you don't have too many creative orks), etc etc for what ever goes in to making orks orks, you have a much shorter list of things. Add to that aggression, love of noise, speed, obsession, short attention span, etc, and the fact orks are anthropomorphic, you have conditions in which orks will tend to develop fast, noisy, deadly things, but not do very good job because they get bored once it's working well enough.


I honestly never read of such things happening, afaik Meks are super jealous, but then again, some Orkish stuff is stuff that can hardly be "invented" in few generation of Meks discussing things. If Orks REALLY had any desire or capacity for independent development they would be aeons ahead of any other race and a complete and utter defeat would be unthinkable.

Which brings me to my last point. Independence.
I know that Orks create stuff. I also know that Brainboyz (I like it better than Old Ones) gave them the means to do it. The question we're actually asking is: "Can Orks create stuff outside of what Brainboyz meant them to?"
In order to do that they need to have 2 things, the ability to do it, and the will to do it.
Finding out if they are actually able to is very hard, so I'll focus on their will to do it.
Basically it's a discussion of free will. Do Orks possess a free will outside of the "destiny" that Brainboyz gave them?

I would suggest orks, like modern man, are constrained by their evolutionary path (natural or artificial). Some interesting work on man's rapaciousness, claims this is a hangover from early man - when it was difficult to get resources, it was desirable to hoard. So the hoarding instinct was desirable. In modern (read Western) times this is a less than desirable trait - we produce a surplus, so we don't need more, but there is a population tendency to want more. And so on for other traits.

Madness
04-21-2010, 01:58 AM
Sorry, better would be, big meks steal ideas from smaller meks (or anyone they can sneek a look at).Possible, yet not too documented?


If you have ever taught you would see this is typical learning behaviour - orks are naturally very intuative, and while learning, being intuative does not make you skillful. Only practice will do this, and orks don't practice. They can also make factories, probably not ISO certifiable. The workers would be mostly slaves and grots, who have a greater ability to learn (but are more likely to be stupid).Well but orks are somewhat industrious, shouldn't your 1000th slugga be something you sort of practiced upon? Yet they manage to make an unstable product even the 1000th time.(see gorkamorka tables for weapon modifications or surgeries)


This is actually how most science works. A lot of 'I kind of want this to happen, lets see'. For example, I was working on some network theory for runtime optimisation of graph clustering of semantic models, but published a paper on some interesting properties that reconciled several statistical early language learning models using the structural properties produced by different semantic relationships. And damn straight that's what I wanted!Galileo's scientific method requires you to form a conjecture before testing, whereas orks tend to start planning with the hammer and the screwdriver, with little time wasted on blueprints. See the whole practical skill vs theoretical skill.

Plus once the dust has settled you're supposed to analyze your results, whereas Orks seem to just throw stuff in the "doesn't work tooo well" bin and move to another project they are equally clueless about.


The problem with this is that imprinting something so specific does not really make sense, even in 40k's science model.I'd invoke some level of suspension of disbelief. But maybe I can pull it off without it.

I agree that orks are genetically engineered mushroom men, but the ability to code for specific things and have them last millennia or eons is troubling. Since orks reproduce and are not clones, there must be some degree of DNA variance since the differences cannot be explained soley by environment.That means that some of the "dna stuff" changes, not all of it. Consider they have a third artificially added spiral to their helix, one that might serve as a "support" or "storage". One that surely as hell wasn't going to be there on its own.


The other part is your coding must survive the environment. The problem with your pizza turtles is that pizza is a societal construct, and (assuming brain theory of mind) is imprinted from the environment.That is assuming that the environment has a say in what kind of society is developed. Which doesn't seem the case, the Kultur is the same whether they are on a desert barren world or on a luscious forest.


What can be coded is the ability to detect flavour, make tools, and like certain types of things, but they may end up with pide, pasties or a whole lot of other similar things. (OK, this isn't a very well made point - the summary is that it's nigh on impossible to code specifics for artifacts, even when you can code lower level things).No, but you could instill drives and inject skills, and if most people wants a specific something, and has specific abilities, they will probably end up creating the same solutions.

If I start at point A(same fundamentals for every ork society) and move in a direction X with an intensity of K(same drives and needs in every ork society) I will always end up at point B(the technology "developed" in every ork society), even if point B wasn't specifically named in the starting environment.


If however, you code for excellent spacial reasoning (useful for both fighting and manufacturing), for creativity (though this would be recessive so you don't have too many creative orks), etc etc for what ever goes in to making orks orks, you have a much shorter list of things. Add to that aggression, love of noise, speed, obsession, short attention span, etc, and the fact orks are anthropomorphic, you have conditions in which orks will tend to develop fast, noisy, deadly things, but not do very good job because they get bored once it's working well enough.The galaxy is a very varied place, creating a plethora of different challenges, to which the answer can't be a single tool all the time (unless said tool is ungodly powerful and efficient, in which case you end up creating a weapon too strong to control).


I would suggest orks, like modern man, are constrained by their evolutionary path (natural or artificial). Some interesting work on man's rapaciousness, claims this is a hangover from early man - when it was difficult to get resources, it was desirable to hoard. So the hoarding instinct was desirable. In modern (read Western) times this is a less than desirable trait - we produce a surplus, so we don't need more, but there is a population tendency to want more. And so on for other traits.There is a parallel with humans surely, and we don't have the answer for how humans develop things, we can have theories, but for all we know we might also have an artificial genetic propension for certain stuff inserted from godlike creatures.
But for orks we know it to be true, so I'd say that's a pretty conservative and simple assumption to say that the tampering isn't so limited to "ok, and then we make them knowing physics and chemistry, they will be able to build stuff with it", specially considering how (ironically) well ordinated is the development of a new ork society (I'm talking of how good spores are at creating what an ork society needs when it needs it).

gorepants
04-21-2010, 03:53 AM
Well but orks are somewhat industrious, shouldn't your 1000th slugga be something you sort of practiced upon? Yet they manage to make an unstable product even the 1000th time.(see gorkamorka tables for weapon modifications or surgeries).

Have you bought any poorly manufactured Chinese electronics (not to pick on the Chinese, but that's where the majority of our junk over here comes from)? The quality is directly attributable to the work ethic (both workers and the managers/owners who must train them and supply adequate components), and poorer stuff is strongly divorced from any sense of quality. This is what I'm think of, though the drivers that cause it would not be the same.


Galileo's scientific method requires you to form a conjecture before testing, whereas orks tend to start planning with the hammer and the screwdriver, with little time wasted on blueprints. See the whole practical skill vs theoretical skill.

Plus once the dust has settled you're supposed to analyze your results, whereas Orks seem to just throw stuff in the "doesn't work tooo well" bin and move to another project they are equally clueless about.

While it is required, it doesn't always happen this way. The impression I got was that an ork kind of wanted something, but what come out wouldn't always be the same same. The process is not rigorous like science should be, more like bodging together a scooter, where the most fundamental ideas on how something works seem to get you through.


I'd invoke some level of suspension of disbelief. But maybe I can pull it off without it.
...
That means that some of the "dna stuff" changes, not all of it. Consider they have a third artificially added spiral to their helix, one that might serve as a "support" or "storage". One that surely as hell wasn't going to be there on its own.

This is all a bit too deus ex machina for my liking. It's a shorter explanation, but it seems a little to contrived as it requires as a hell of a lot more work on the designer's part since you need to make almost all the base functionality of the drives model (less some of the higher functions), then add all the knowledge plus an interface to it.


That is assuming that the environment has a say in what kind of society is developed. Which doesn't seem the case, the Kultur is the same whether they are on a desert barren world or on a luscious forest.

The point here was that enviroment drives the little things (pizza vs pide), and genes drive the big things (food, war, sex, power, love).


No, but you could instill drives and inject skills, and if most people wants a specific something, and has specific abilities, they will probably end up creating the same solutions.

This is more or less what I am advocating, minus the support helix, though at a more basic level. What you would give a instincts, drives and abilities. Form these would emerge skill, culture, artifacts, etc.


If I start at point A(same fundamentals for every ork society) and move in a direction X with an intensity of K(same drives and needs in every ork society) I will always end up at point B(the technology "developed" in every ork society), even if point B wasn't specifically named in the starting environment.

This bit's problematic - the issue of the homogeneity of ork society isn't well addressed by GW. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Your thesis is internal consistent re this, but I still prefer the idea that it's either to do with the Imperium's view being biased or that there is a psychic zeitgeist.


The galaxy is a very varied place, creating a plethora of different challenges, to which the answer can't be a single tool all the time (unless said tool is ungodly powerful and efficient, in which case you end up creating a weapon too strong to control).

I would say that providing very basic drives is much more useful in this situation, since what you have is more adaptable - they would become a tool that can make their own tools. Of course too much adaptability can be a bad thing too.


There is a parallel with humans surely, and we don't have the answer for how humans develop things, we can have theories, but for all we know we might also have an artificial genetic propension for certain stuff inserted from godlike creatures.
But for orks we know it to be true, so I'd say that's a pretty conservative and simple assumption to say that the tampering isn't so limited to "ok, and then we make them knowing physics and chemistry, they will be able to build stuff with it", specially considering how (ironically) well ordinated is the development of a new ork society (I'm talking of how good spores are at creating what an ork society needs when it needs it).

I'd actually say, they would be doing small amounts of tampering, at lest iff we assume that all orkoid species are descendants of the brainboyz (or some other proto-ork; I'll ignore the created from scratch since that is a bit too much an anything goes theory, a bit like intelligent design). Then you already have a sentient, self-aware base. From this you code for orky characteristics. These would be (relatively) small changes.

Actually, I think this best sums up why I think what I do, if orks come from proto-orks, why would you go to all the trouble of removing higher functions, then adding in a more complex retrieval system, to have them do essentially the same thing? More so if they were made by the brainboyz, who were the proto-orks and were making slave races. The idea that ork tech is emergent seems much more pleasing to me - while it may not require the technical prowess that is required to make preprogrammed meat robots, it does require a more finessed approach to get it right.

And the ork society thing could be (sort of) code, a bit like when stem cell decide to specialise. This would mean that orks, grots and snots all share the same base DNA, but some hormonal response (resulting from, say, the density of spoors) means that they express their genes differently.

And on the topic of learning
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8631486.stm
It doesn't support either view but is quite interesting none the less.

Ferrett
04-21-2010, 03:12 PM
I always thought orks were less science forscience and more experimentation via engineering. (I'm both so I'm not downing any foreign field). Science to me is more.... precision for precision's sake, whilst engineering has a 'ballpark figure' approach. And that's how I see sluggas being made. Does it fire? Yep! Good enough.

AirHorse
04-22-2010, 05:03 AM
Thought I would add something to the discussion that i hadnt seen mentioned(though there was lots to read so maybe I missed it!).

Ork technology doesnt operate on normal scientific principles alone remember, theres a blurb in the codex somewhere that says an orks gun will work fine in his hands, even if it scientifically shouldnt be able to, as long as he believes it should work. That same gun used by a human who recovered it will never be able to make it work.

I think ork technology is similar to their comunity, its a part of the very much unexplained part of their psychic links with each other. In the same way that if a community needs a mek then meks will no doubt spawn quickly to fill that need, if the community needs any particular technology then the meks will be bodging something together very quickly to fill those needs even if he himself was not directly aware they needed some of those things.

I think this is also how orks congrugate so quickly at the biggest battlezones, the presence of so many orks having such awesome fun will inspire other orks to take to space in search of some fighting, drawn either purely by instinct or perhaps by some Waaagh prophet.

Obviously most of this is conclusions ive drawn myself from what is said, but I just thought people should perhaps remember that as much as orks have genetic advantages they also seem to have strange and subtle psychic advantages that no one can explain either.

Lerra
04-22-2010, 10:01 PM
Part of the problem with debates like this is that logic is not a great tool. The inside of a GW writer's head is a strange place, and it may or may not make sense (especially when you're dealing with a team of writers over several decades). Plus GW has a reputation for putting cool-factor and comedy over logic.

Personally, I favor the idea of orks with both internal schematics and an intuitive knowledge of mechanics. I can just imagine every Mekboy in the galaxy being full of advanced STC-style technology from the Old Ones, but they choose not to build it because it's not properly orky. Instead, they mash their internal schematics together and use their mechanical knowledge to build crazy (and properly orky) things. I'm amused by the idea of Mekboys with sleek, beautiful ships floating in their heads, and the Mekboy going "Yuk! Imma build sumtin to get that ugly bit o ick outta my head."

For all we know, maybe the Old Ones built the Orks as their lifeship. Orks were not built to just conquer the galaxy and doom all future sentient races, but to survive no matter what. Then they were loaded with instructions on how to build tech to revive the Old Ones. The Orks just choose to never use that knowledge, and who knows if it's been lost over the eons . . .

Melissia
04-23-2010, 07:54 AM
That same gun used by a human who recovered it will never be able to make it work.That's actually contradicted by later fluff.

Dark Heresy, however, has a better explanation; in the hands of an Ork, an Ork weapon is reliable (like a lasgun is reliable, or a good quality bolter is reliable, or a revolver is reliable-- weapons that almost never jam). In the hands of a non-Ork, it's unreliable, but it's still able to be used... it just jams more than it should. I know Ciaphas Cain used an Ork Trukk, and Marines have used Ork Shootaz before, as well.

Basically, Ork technology, except for the crazier things such as teleporters and such, CAN work on its own. It just works better with an Ork using it, both because half the time only an Ork truly understands the nature of the weapon and how it should be used, and because of the innate gestalt psychic fields they emit as part of their orkyness.

Necrontyr
05-01-2010, 12:58 PM
I like this summary the best, and I also think it supports theory #3: Orks just instictively make stuff up as they go, and it's fairly uniform because orks tend to think alike.

Dellamorte
12-08-2010, 02:10 PM
That's actually contradicted by later fluff.

Dark Heresy, however, has a better explanation; in the hands of an Ork, an Ork weapon is reliable (like a lasgun is reliable, or a good quality bolter is reliable, or a revolver is reliable-- weapons that almost never jam). In the hands of a non-Ork, it's unreliable, but it's still able to be used... it just jams more than it should. I know Ciaphas Cain used an Ork Trukk, and Marines have used Ork Shootaz before, as well.

Basically, Ork technology, except for the crazier things such as teleporters and such, CAN work on its own. It just works better with an Ork using it, both because half the time only an Ork truly understands the nature of the weapon and how it should be used, and because of the innate gestalt psychic fields they emit as part of their orkyness.

And that is the great crime of retconning, they went and altered a great idea to make it “logical”.
However, I believe the gist of what Boom! Studios and Black Library seemed to convey is, while ork equipment may work for other races, no one, other than an ork, can understand why it works. If a Techno priest takes apart anything other than hunk of steel hammered into a sword like shape, they can’t find a logical reason for it to work. They’ll open it up and find no power sources, inconsistent moving parts, and loose “gubbins” just rattling around. For reasons no “propa ork” would question, their equipment works because an ork thinks it should work.

That being said, I think #3 is the most likely conclusion because 1# works off the assumption that there is logic/method to their madness and 2# is entirely too limiting not taking the sheer amount of imagination and inspiration for their ability to loot and adapt nearly anything else. I wouldn’t doubt that there is a looted Necron monolith out there with a dozen or so grots swarmed all over it, and a Mek using a bridle to steer it.

Throughout the codexs, rule books, and canonical literature, warmeks, big meks, painboyz, and mekboyz have been fueled by competition, inspired by Gork (or Mork), and beaten/stolen ideas out of others to build the fastest, shootiest, stabbinest, killiest, stompinest, biggest, and bestest equipment out there. The only hindrances to their imagination is our imagination, and I rather like the thought that mine is unlimited.