2000pt Foot Black Templars

[blackarmchair]

So, I'm working on a new shiny Black Templars army and this is my 2000pt final goal list. Thought I'd share it with everyone and hope to get some C&C.

HQ
+ Emperor's Champion [140]
- Accept any Challenge, no matter the odds

+ Chaplain Grimaldus [195]

Elites
+ Venerable Dreadnought [165]
- Heavy Flamer, Lascannon; Tank Hunters

+ Sword Brethren Assault Terminator Squad [215]
- 5x Assault Terminators w/ Furious Charge

Troops
+ 2x Crusader Squads [274]
- 10x Initiates: BP&CCW, Frags; 1x Powerfist & Crusader Seals, 1x Meltagun
- 7x Neophytes: BP&CCW, Frags

+ Crusader Squad [264]
- 10x Initiates: BP&CCW, Frags; 1x Powerfist & Crusader Seals
- 7x Neophytes: BP&CCW, Frags

Fast Attack
+ Attack Bike Squadron [195]
- 3x Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas

Heavy Support
+ 2x Vindicators [129]
- Smoke Launchers, Searchlight

Total: 2000
------------------------------------------------------------------

The plan would be pretty straightforward, the troops footslog it and Righteous Zeal toward the foe while the Vindicators provide fire-support for anything even these crazy crusaders won't charge. The Terminators come in turn 2 or 3 hopefully and clean house while the Dreadnought and the Bikes pop any heavy armour.

It's very killy and very fun and hopefully still pretty competitive; have at it!

[Nikephoros]

Foot-slogging anything is a challenge, so good lucky with keeping it competitive at all.

Couple notes...

1. Deep striking assault terminators are really bad. Given the firepower and mobility of modern 40k armies I would expect these to never actually make it to assault unless your opponent is really bad. BT assault terminators need a LRC, and there is just no way around it. Since you don't have the points and its not your theme I would instead do deep striking normal terminators with 2x assault cannons and tank hunters. They are excellent at shredding light mech and aren't bad in hand to hand, either.

2. Chaplain Grimadlus is over priced. I would try to find the points for two basic chaplains instead so there is one each in the big crusader squads.

3. The attack bikes should be three squads of 1. I know this gives up more kill points but it gives you more versatility. Actually, they should be changed to 2x Landspeeders with HF and MM. That will free up some points to get a special weapon into your third crusader squad, as well as help pay for the chaplains and assault cannons. Plus landspeeders have game vs hordes and mech.

4. Vindicators are really, really bad even with PotMS. Predator with Autocannon and Lascannon sponsons will be much better for you.

5. Dreadnaught does not need the heavy flamer because he is not in a drop pod. In all probability he will never use it. He should be shooting at a Rhino or Razorback every turn.

[blackarmchair]

Hrmmm...

1) That's a good point. My plan was to Deep Strike them behind infantry or behind a big LoS block but the shooty Terminators might just be better.

2) I know he's expensive but I do love my black knight, plus I plan to do a themed Armageddon war thing so I do have to keep him.

3) This I really like, thanks!

4) I know that Vindicators are very typically frowned upon, but generally I will not need the added anti-tank of the preds given the tank-hunting dreadnought, extra meltas, and the new addition of tank-hunting Terminators so I just figure that big boom is good supporting fire for the infantry and will draw some fire as well.

5) Good point.

Thanks!

[Nikephoros]

The terminators and the melta stuff is all good, but its not quite enough anti-tank when you consider 2k imperial guard usually bring 12+ pieces of armor and space marines in razorbacks can bring 7+. Yes the Dred is super good, you really need the heavy support to be strong vs troops and mech, and AC/LS Predators can do both, and most importantly: they can kill tanks on turn one which your melta units and terminators cannot. Shaking or killing the Leman Russ Executioner turn 1 could be the difference in your guys getting there or getting blown off the table.

[blackarmchair]

Yeah..I'm familiar with IG...grrrr.

I might just have to swap out at least one of em, I do love that fire support but you make a good point.

[blackarmchair]

Okay, so after some helpful suggestions from Nikephoros here is the new and improved list!

HQ
+ Emperor's Champion [140]
- Accept any Challenge, no matter the odds

+ Chaplain Grimaldus [195]

Elites
+ Venerable Dreadnought [155]
- Storm Bolter, Lascannon; Tank Hunters

+ Sword Brethren Terminator Squad [245]
- 1x Terminator Sergeant with Power Sword & Storm Bolter
- 2x Terminators with Storm Bolter & Powerfist
- 2x Terminators with Assault Cannon & Powerfist
- "Tank Hunters Veteran Skill"

Troops
+ Crusader Squad [272]
- 10x Initiates: BP&CCW, Frags; 1x Powerfist, 1x Meltagun
- 7x Neophytes: BP&CCW, Frags

+ 2x Crusader Squad [274]
- 10x Initiates: BP&CCW, Frags; 1x Powerfist & Crusader Seals, 1x Meltagun
- 7x Neophytes: BP&CCW, Frags

Fast Attack
+ Attack Bike Squad [195]
- 3x Attack Bikes with Multi-Melta & Twin-Linked Bolter

Heavy Support
+ 2x Predator Destructor [126]
- Sponson Lascannons, Searchlight

Total: 2015
==================================================

So, after deliberation I took most of the advise I got, I think I want to keep my bikes though. Their twin-linked bolters + Multi-Meltas can dish out only a couple less wounds to hordes than the flamers (I crunched some numbers and I'd have to hit 7-8 models with a flamer to make a real difference) plus the bikers are more durable.

Still gotta drop 15pts somewhere. I really don't want to lose a biker but I suppose I can swap one out for another Terminator and be around 2000...other options include removing the powerfist from Grimaldus' squad seeing as he has 6 power weapon attacks on the charge but then I get worried about Dreadnoughts and creatures...

Ideas?