PDA

View Full Version : Adepta Sororitas & Ordo Hereticus



eldargal
05-04-2010, 10:35 PM
Well, after having it pointed out to me that Codex: Witch Hunters does in face explicity state that the Adepta Sororitas act as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus (pages two and six), this got me thinking; Does this mean that the Adepta Sororitas ARE actually part of the Inquisition?

I think not, I will explain why below. But what do other people think?

First, the fluff state that the Adepta Sororitas agree to act as the Chamber Militant of the organisation, when called on to do so by a duly appointed Inquisitor. This to me indicates that the Inquisition still have to ask, which means the Adepta Sororitas can refuse (whether they choose to exercisethis right is irrelevent). This is not the actions of a subordinate part of the same organisation.

Second, this arrangement seems to be simply a more formalised form of the usual Imperial procedure which allows an Inquisitor to requisition whatever forces he deems necessary, up to and including entire planets.

Third, the fluff goes on to state that the Adepta Sororitas remain under the auspices of the Ecclesiarchy and retain the responsibilities given to them by Sebastian Thor. This seems to me to indicate the original agenda still stands alongside that of the Ordo Hereticus and that at an institutional and administrative level the Adepta Sororitas are NOT part of the Inquisition.

Fourth, in theory at least like any treaty the Convocation of Nephilim could be revoked, meaning the Adepta Sororitas would cease to be the militant wing of the Ordo Hereticus. No indication is ever given that the Grey Knights or Deathwatch could ever split from their respective Ordos.

To sum up, I think that while the Adepta Sororitas are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, they are not part of that institution and could cease to be the Chamber Militant by revoking the Convocation of Nephilim

Melissia
05-04-2010, 10:51 PM
Which is exactly what I've been saying. The Convocation of Nephilim is nothing more than an agreement of "hey, we think alike and have similar goals; so let's help eachother".

Furthermore? The Sisters are, in the end, loyal only to one authority. It is neither the Inquisition they are truly loyal to, nor the Ecclesiarchy... but the Emperor. It is up to each Sister how best to serve the Emperor, not the Inquisition, nor the Ecclesiarchy. They will not hesitate for an instant to attack an Inquisitor that shows signs of disloyalty to the Emperor. Any Inquisitor that is not like-minded is very careful around the Sisterhood.

In Dark Heresy: Ascension, obtaining the help of the Sisterhood is second only to obtaining the help of a Space Marine chapter in difficulty.

Kahoolin
05-04-2010, 10:58 PM
I tend to think that the treaty could be revoked, but that until it is, the Sororitas are in fact subordinate to the Inquisition. As you said, they are required to serve when called upon, which of course means that they could say no, but then presumably there would be diplomatic consquences. Anyone can say no to an Inquisitor, it just has repercussions. The Sororitas seem to have formally and specifically agreed that they will serve, which is more than the general commitment all Imperial officials have.

I think the idea that the Sororitas are somehow not really under the power of the Inquisition comes from old school players to whom the current codex seems like a retcon. This view happens to prevail on these boards, so it is easy to forget that to many relatively recent players the sisters are servants of the OH, and the codex says so. That's my two cents.

This question of conflicting loyalty has bothered me before. (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3917) For example, what would happen if an Inquisitor ordered some Sororitas to capture and execute a Cardinal?

eldargal
05-04-2010, 11:11 PM
I think the key is that the Adepta Sororitas agree to be subservient, whereas the Grey Knights and Deathwatch have no choice. The Grey Knights don't agree to act as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they just are the Chamber Militant.
Saying no to the Inquisition has repercussions certainly, but the Ecclesiarchy is THE official church and most powerful organisation in the entire Imperium bureaucracy. If anyone could tell an Inquisitor were to go it would be their Chamber Militant.



I tend to think that the treaty could be revoked, but that until it is, the Sororitas are in fact subordinate to the Inquisition. As you said, they are required to serve when called upon, which of course means that they could say no, but then presumably there would be diplomatic consquences. Anyone can say no to an Inquisitor, it just has repercussions. The Sororitas seem to have formally and specifically agreed that they will serve, which is more than the general commitment all Imperial officials have.

I think the idea that the Sororitas are somehow not really under the power of the Inquisition comes from old school players to whom the current codex seems like a retcon. This view happens to prevail on these boards, so it is easy to forget that to many relatively recent players the sisters are servants of the OH, and the codex says so. That's my two cents.

This question of conflicting loyalty has bothered me before. (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3917&highlight=sororitas+loyalties) For example, what would happen if an Inquisitor ordered some Sororitas to capture and execute a Cardinal?

Melissia
05-04-2010, 11:11 PM
Anyone can say no to an Inquisitor, it just has repercussions

Not always. The Sisters, the Astartes, Imperial Navy fleet commanders, lord governors, and so on you must leverage more than just your inquisitorial authority to obtain favors from these individuals. Furthermore, in order to wield such authority, the Inquisitor must openly reveal who they are, which itself is often dangerous to both their investigations and their lives. So most of the time they don't.

And even then? It depends on the authority of the Inquisitor in specific. A newly minted Inquisitor often has less authority than a hive-world's governor, for example, while a Lord Inquisitor's reach is truly great. But even then, specific Lord Inquisitors-- the leaders of conclaves-- are even more powerful. And let's not even get into singular individuals such as the High Lords of Terra, or the Ecclesiarch...

Kahoolin
05-04-2010, 11:38 PM
I think the key is that the Adepta Sororitas agree to be subservient, whereas the Grey Knights and Deathwatch have no choice. The Grey Knights don't agree to act as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they just are the Chamber Militant.That's true. So it seems like there are different degrees of loyalty towards the Inquisition.

I suppose I thought of the Convocation as being a stronger tie of loyalty than the general responsibility of Imperial officials to aid an Inquisitor, because it is so specific. Maybe it isn't stronger though. Maybe it's just like any of the specific treaties between various Astartes chapters and the Inquisition?


Not always. The Sisters, the Astartes, Imperial Navy fleet commanders, lord governors, and so on you must leverage more than just your inquisitorial authority to obtain favors from these individuals. Furthermore, in order to wield such authority, the Inquisitor must openly reveal who they are, which itself is often dangerous to both their investigations and their lives. So most of the time they don't.Good point. I guess though by "repercussions" I was thinking diplomatic repercussions between the Orders and the Ordo. After all, what's the point of pledging aid if it's only when you feel like it? Every time the Sororitas refuse a call from the Ordo Hereticus without a damn good reason it weakens the strength of the agreement to function as Chamber Militant. So I assume they wouldn't refuse often.

Melissia
05-04-2010, 11:41 PM
But that agreement goes both ways, Kahoolin.

A Canoness might refuse an unknown Inquisitor who hasn't proven his/herself, because she already has important duties-- or because, well, he/she hasn't proven him/herself. And one whom is rumored to have veered to the path of Radicalism? They had better be good at covering up, or else they might end up being burned alive.

Kahoolin
05-04-2010, 11:43 PM
So you mean part of it is that the OH agrees not to call on the Sisters constantly for petty reasons? I can see that.

Melissia
05-04-2010, 11:44 PM
How I understand it is that they agree to help eachother out because their goals are similar.

Which could mean, for example, that the Ordo Hereticus would help the Sisters root out and destroy a Temple Tendency cell in exchange for future favors.

eldargal
05-04-2010, 11:57 PM
I think the wording 'duly appointed Inquisitor' is telling. I may well be wrong but it sounds to me as if a single Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus has to be granted permission (appointed) to invoke the Convocation, a random Inquisitor, however senior, can not just roll up to a SoB Order and request service from them. This would mean that the Convocation 'formalising' the arrangement between the Adepta Sororitas and the Ordo Hereticus is not just formalising in the sense of making it official, but also putting in place a formal structure to the requests for aid. I hope this makes sense, and all this is just my interpretation of the text so I'm not saying its set in stone.

And yes, it is a treaty so the Adepta Sororitas must get something in return for foregoing full autonomy. No mention is made of what they may be. I doubt it is anything so vulgar as wealth and resources, giving the puritan nature of the Sororitas and the fact that the Ecclesiarchy is phenomenally wealthy.

Melissia
05-05-2010, 12:00 AM
Temple Tendency, for those who don't recognize the term, are those who still hold to the pre-Thorian belief system, which ended with the death of Goge Vandire. Temple Tendency cells tend to be quite wealthy, subtle, and influential, and they absolutely despise the Sisterhood because of Alicia Dominica's "betrayal" of Goge Vandire, whom they believe is still the rightful Ecclesiarch.

Paul
05-05-2010, 12:06 AM
The impression I get from the Witch Hunters Codex is that the Sororitas are bound by the Convocation of Nephilim to come to the aid of any "duly appointed Inquisitor" who calls.

There's two ways to read this:

1) (the way I first read it) An inquisitor who is "duly appointed" is one who holds the title of Inquisitor, and is appointed to that post by his superiors through the necessary and proper rituals/procedures.

2) A "duly appointed inquisitor" means a SINGLE inquisitor who is appointed (by someone or another) to the post of calling on the Sororitas.

Melissia
05-05-2010, 12:13 AM
In the end, however, the Sisters serve the Emperor, not the Inquisition. They might be "bound" to the Inquisition, but so, too, are they "bound" to the Ecclesiarchy. And yet in the end they are loyal to neither.. only the Emperor. What matters most is whether or not the Inquisitor can convince the Sisters that what they want is also the best way to serve the Emperor. The Inquisitorial Rosette is not a ticket to ultimate power in and of itself.

Nabterayl
05-05-2010, 02:08 AM
I'm inclined to read "duly appointed" as just referring to a bona fide inquisitor - the impression one gets from the Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels is that inquisitors are too far-flung for one (or a group) of them to appoint another.

Sitnam
05-05-2010, 07:58 AM
I would like to note that while the agreement is more of a formal "we got yall's backs if yall got ours" sort of deal, the Ordo Hereticus and Eccleciarchy do have stong ties in several pieces of fiction: (Spoiler Alert)






In the Vraks books for example, the OH and Eccleciarchy are aligned in taking control of the war from the OM, and in the Souls Drinkers books the SOB are quite eager to help hunt down the renegades. So even if the Sisters are only unofficially the Chambers Militant of the OH, there are many examples of the two working alongside one another. Not that this leans the argument either which way on the status of the Sisters and Witch Hunters, but we at least know the operate together.

Also, I wonder if there are any more materials on the Death Watch. We know the Grey Knights are a much more official part of the Malleus then the Sisters are to the Hereticus. But what exactly is the process with the Death Watch? I figured it would be something similar tot he Convocation signed between the Inquisition and various chapters.

Nabterayl
05-05-2010, 11:07 AM
I agree we shouldn't exaggerate the differences between the Hereticus and the Sororitas. Yes, they are separate organizations, but that doesn't mean that in practice sisters very often find the Inquisition asking them to do one thing and the Ecclesiarchy or their own canonesses telling them to do another.

For that matter, I imagine that practically speaking, the Deathwatch and Grey Knights get asked more than ordered. I mean, even if the Grey Knights are officially part of the Ordo Malleus, they have their own representative on the innermost councils of the Inquisition - not an organization you want to be too high-handed with.

"Chamber Militant" apparently does not mean or imply subordination to a particular Ordo. I think it only means "these are the guys a particular Ordo goes to most often when it needs a small, elite strike force to execute some serious direct action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action_%28military%29)."

Old_Paladin
05-10-2010, 05:24 PM
For that matter, I imagine that practically speaking, the Deathwatch and Grey Knights get asked more than ordered. I mean, even if the Grey Knights are officially part of the Ordo Malleus, they have their own representative on the innermost councils of the Inquisition.

I think this is a very, very important difference. The Hightest ranking Grey Knights actually sit on the Inquisitorial Councils.
I'm not sure that it's the same with any of the Grand Abbesses.

When council chambers are discribed; those of the Melleous tend to usually be a semi-circle (with both Inquisitor and grey knight sitting together).
I have a feeling that with the Hereticus, the two bodies get different tables (and that one of those tables could often be empty).

Melissia
05-10-2010, 05:28 PM
The Abbess Sanctorum is a High Lord of Terra.

You don't get much more authority than that.

Faultie
05-10-2010, 05:46 PM
I think of it, at least in bureaucratic terms, as more of an MOU (memorandum of understanding) between the two organization. The OH hasn't got its own native militant arm, but they have got a series of procedures and customs in place, as part of the MOU with the Adepta Sororitas, that allow for them to acquire the service of the Sisters as needed.

The Abbess Sanctorum is a High Lord of Terra.
Sometimes.

Melissia
05-10-2010, 05:53 PM
When there IS an Abbess anyway. GW's too lazy to make a character, sadly, so they said she "disappeared" and then forgot about her.

Faultie
05-10-2010, 05:57 PM
When there IS an Abbess anyway. GW's too lazy to make a character, sadly, so they said she "disappeared" and then forgot about her.
The Abbess Sanctorum does not occupy one of the permanent seats, as does the Master of the Administratum, Grand Provost Marshal, Ecclesiarch, etc. I suppose that the influence of the Adepta Sororitas waxes and wanes, or sometimes their interests are represented well enough by the Ecclesiarch.

I'm afraid it's not that GW is too lazy, but that they actually think that's a good plot hook.

Melissia
05-10-2010, 06:09 PM
... which they did absolutely nothing with over more than a decade. Nothing in C:WH, nothing in WD, nothing in any novel.

No, they're lazy.

Faultie
05-10-2010, 06:12 PM
They're not lazy. They're just...taking their time...to make sure they do it right...hmmm.

Melissia
05-10-2010, 06:15 PM
Lol... stop making excuses for GW, they aren't paying you for it :P

Well if they are, that's kinda cool actually.

Spirit Leech
05-18-2010, 08:48 AM
The Abbess Sanctorum does not occupy one of the permanent seats, as does the Master of the Administratum, Grand Provost Marshal, Ecclesiarch, etc. I suppose that the influence of the Adepta Sororitas waxes and wanes, or sometimes their interests are represented well enough by the Ecclesiarch.

I'm afraid it's not that GW is too lazy, but that they actually think that's a good plot hook.

No one ever mentions that the Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum when speaking of the high lords. The office holds enough power to ensure a permanent seat among the high lords. Talk about GW totally ignoring something for a while, assassins get even less coverage then the sob's if that is even possible.

Necrosis
05-18-2010, 10:37 AM
GW did forget about her, they forget about the whole army.

Duke
05-18-2010, 11:03 AM
Gw doesn't together about anything... It all just gets eaten by a hive fleet and ceases to exist. It isn't thier fault

Necrosis
05-18-2010, 11:08 AM
Squats didn't even get eaten by a hive fleet. The whole getting eaten by a hive fleet never made any sense if you think about it. Squats were found through out the entire Imperium. Did an entire hive fleet just go through the Imperium tragetting nothing but Squats? They just disappeared.

Duke
05-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Es, that is exactley how it happened,lol. You see, square are just so full of protein that the tyranids sent in ninja hive fleets to collect them up, ten thy turned them into genestealers. Why do you think genestealers are so short?

Necrosis
05-18-2010, 11:35 AM
Es, that is exactley how it happened,lol. You see, square are just so full of protein that the tyranids sent in ninja hive fleets to collect them up, ten thy turned them into genestealers. Why do you think genestealers are so short?

How much longer till they do that to the Tau?

Melissia
05-18-2010, 12:52 PM
No one ever mentions that the Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum when speaking of the high lords. The office holds enough power to ensure a permanent seat among the high lords. Talk about GW totally ignoring something for a while, assassins get even less coverage then the sob's if that is even possible.
That's because Assassins do not make up an army on their own, and are damned rare regardless.


Mind you, not as rare as Marines probably.

Necrosis
05-18-2010, 04:05 PM
I think they are more rare then marines. They say the lost of 6 assassins will take an extremly long time to make up for.

Valkerie
05-18-2010, 10:08 PM
No one ever mentions that the Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum when speaking of the high lords. The office holds enough power to ensure a permanent seat among the high lords. Talk about GW totally ignoring something for a while, assassins get even less coverage then the sob's if that is even possible.

It could also be that no one wants to talk about the assassins for fear of bringing their attention on themselves. It is extremely possible that those who talk about assassins "disappear", possibly along with their entire families. That would be enough incentive for most people to keep quiet. And those who don't keep quiet, well, they aren't around to talk for long.

eldargal
05-18-2010, 11:11 PM
I thought the fluff was that the Squat homeworlds and colonies were et by Tyranids, leaving only scattered and embittered survivors around the place? That makes more sense. The survivirs would be less keen on risking their lives in battle and more keen on breeding like rabbits on some isolated world somwhere to try and rebuild their civilization.

As to assassins, it does make more sense for them to be kept mysterious and un-written about. in my opinion at least. They are covert agents, not an army like Adepta Sororitas.


Squats didn't even get eaten by a hive fleet. The whole getting eaten by a hive fleet never made any sense if you think about it. Squats were found through out the entire Imperium. Did an entire hive fleet just go through the Imperium tragetting nothing but Squats? They just disappeared.