Imperial elites

[Sitnam]

So it is fairly common thoguht that there are ~1000 chapters with ~1000 marines each on average, coming out to about 1 million amrines. Does anyone have guesses as to how many Sisters of Battle, Stormtroopers (Including planetary equivalents such as Cadian Kasrkin and Krieg Grenadiers.), and Titan Legion s are potentially out there?

I know from Lexicanum that the Sisters have 6 major Orders Militiant, and that a preceptory of one of these orders is about 1000 sisters, But how many preceptorys exist per order?

I reckon that there has to be more Soritas then Astartes, as the very least. The Eccleciarchy maintatians temples and shrines across the Imperium. Th enumber of shrine worlds alone must be countless, and I bet there would have to be atleast a few sisters per shrine world.

[DarkLink]

I don't think there's a good number for Sisters. As I recall, there's even some contradictory stuff claiming there's only, what, 3 major orders rather than 6.

[Melissia]

Each major order has, to quote C:WH, "a couple thousand to many thousands". There are six of them. Depending on how you define "many thousands", there could be hundreds of thousands per Order. The minor orders have never been given a number, but would likely be anywhere from a single squad to a few thousand.


DarkLink: Codex overrides rulebook AFAIK. The rulebook barely mentions anything about the Sisters anyway . According to the rulebook, the Sisters barley even exist, and they mentioned the Age of Apostasy without mentioning Alicia Dominica and the Sisters. Which is stupid, but stupidity from GW's writers is something I'm used to from reading samples of marinewank BL books.

[gwensdad]

So it is fairly common thoguht that there are ~1000 chapters with ~1000 marines each on average, coming out to about 1 million amrines. Does anyone have guesses as to how many Sisters of Battle, Stormtroopers (Including planetary equivalents such as Cadian Kasrkin and Krieg Grenadiers.), and Titan Legion s are potentially out there?


I'll just look at the Stormtroopers and Titan Legions...

Stormtroopers-if you assume less than 1% of guardsmen are chosen for stormtrooper training, the Imperium could have millions of these. In a group of 100,000 guardsmen if one assumes 1/2% being chosen you still get 500 selected for stormtrooper training. Multiply that by the thousands of worlds continually suppling troops and the Guard and the =I= get a nice, steady stream of elite troops.

Titan Legions-AFAIK, GW has never said how many legions there are, but there is the "fluff" of the novel "Titanicus" to start (~40 titans being a rearguard for a forgeworld) and Forge World's "Seige of Vraks" (a 10 Reaver "detachment" with 20 warhounds being sent as a "backup" to the main Guard drive.) It's very probable that the Titan Legions hide their true strength from everyone.

[Melissia]

Stormtroopers-if you assume less than 1% of guardsmen are chosen for stormtrooper training

Doesn't work like that. The overwhelming majority of Stormtroopers are trained at the Schola Progenium-- IE, from childhood-- to be Stormtroopers. Maybe a fraction of a percent are forwarded from the Inquisition to the Schola for training and are proven worthy of said training.

Most females in the Schola Progenium-- that is, almost half of the Schola students-- become members of the Adepta Sororitas. Some become Stormtroopers, some become Commissars, some give their loyalty to some other Imperial group (some become priestesses, for example), but because of the influence of the Ecclesiarchy as well as the built-in prejudices of the Schola, most of the end up going to the Sisterhood. There are more Sisters than Stormtroopers, at any rate-- but remember that "Sisters" in this case refers to both the Militant Orders and the Non-Militant Orders. I'm fairly certain there's more Sisters Hospitalier than there are Sisters of Battle, for example.

[Gotthammer]

Titan Legions have never really been established numerically, and most of their background is early Rogue Trader era stuff anyways so subject to change, but what is concretely said is:

There are four Divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus Collegia Titanica:

Divisio Militaris - the fighting arm, sub divided into Military Orders. Each order is an independant fighting force, numbering from a dozen to many dozens of Titans (ie Fire Wasps, Warp Runners). Adeptus Titanicus states an Order must have at least 8 titans, but that is also a game mechanic so is not concrete. Forge Worlds will often have several Orders based on them. Orders are classed by size as Legions, Demi-Legions and so forth, though the distinction is often unclear.

During the height of the Dark Age of Technology every human world had at least one Titan Legion protecting it, often several (due to the wonders of STC). However later sources mention Titans being Martian creations during the Age of Strife, but that doesn't really explain how the Legions survived on other worlds far away from Mars.

Each Forge world should have at least one military Order protecting it, and many have more than one. Fluff writers make legions a lot bigger than they should be, simply by factor of only using two or three in the background (the Fire Wasps are everywhere). Adeptus Titanicus states there are over a hundred Orders stationed around the Eye of Terror.


Divisio Investigatus - The research Orders, based on Mars, only leaving to field test new equiment. The smallesl in number or the Divisios.


Diviso Mandati - The Executive Orders are made up entirely of Emperor class titans, and travels around to spread the pax Imperia across the galaxy. Each Order has many titans (two to five per tempe-ship), and they deploy laden with Ecclesiarchical preachers and Arbites to re-enforce the Emperor's will. Some (the Missionary Orders) go outside Imperial space in support of Rogue Traders to bring the Emperor's word to recalcitrant or newly discovered worlds.

This is why Imperators have cathedrals on their backs. This is also from before the Omnisiah was writen about, so the Mechanicus worshiped the Emperor as the smartest guy in the galaxy - thus the conflict of beliefs between the Legions in Titanicus as due to the Rogue Trader era background for them Titan crews are written as all worshiping and following the Emperor, not the Machine god.

This group is fairly numerous for the resources it commands, but there are no concrete numbers.


Divisio Telepathica - Smaller than the Military and Executive Orders, the Telepath Orders operate Psi-Titans and work from a single, secret Forge World at the heart of the Imperium.



Sooooo... no real answer. The number of Legions would be roughly equal to the number of Forge Worlds, probably a bit less.

[Nabterayl]

Doesn't work like that. The overwhelming majority of Stormtroopers are trained at the Schola Progenium-- IE, from childhood-- to be Stormtroopers. Maybe a fraction of a percent are forwarded from the Inquisition to the Schola for training and are proven worthy of said training.

Most females in the Schola Progenium-- that is, almost half of the Schola students-- become members of the Adepta Sororitas. Some become Stormtroopers, some become Commissars, some give their loyalty to some other Imperial group (some become priestesses, for example), but because of the influence of the Ecclesiarchy as well as the built-in prejudices of the Schola, most of the end up going to the Sisterhood.
Do you have a quote for this? If it's an assumption, I challenge it. We know that there are female commissars, and there's no physiological reason a woman could become a battle sister but not a storm trooper.


There are more Sisters than Stormtroopers, at any rate-- but remember that "Sisters" in this case refers to both the Militant Orders and the Non-Militant Orders. I'm fairly certain there's more Sisters Hospitalier than there are Sisters of Battle, for example.
I am also pretty sure that there are more sisters hospitaller (stupid GW deliberate misspellings) than sisters militant. I'm not sure there are more sisters than stormtroopers.

It's hard to tell, because most of our information comes from the military side of the 40K universe, and three out of four of the major types of Sororitas are primarily nonmilitary in nature (although we have good evidence that even non-militant sisters sometimes accompany Imperial Guard forces into warzones). But we have some pretty high-numbered storm trooper companies, and records of storm trooper platoons being attached to regular infantry regiments. Even if we assume a very conservative estimate of two platoons per company (I've never seen a storm trooper table of organization), and assume that roughly 10% of all storm trooper companies ever formed have been retired, never to be raised again (this doesn't seem particularly Imperial to me, but let's assume), there's at least 230,000 storm troopers in service (the 2378th storm trooper company served in the 4621st Imperial Guard Army at Taros). And both of those seem like conservative estimates to me.

[Melissia]

Do you have a quote for this? If it's an assumption, I challenge it. We know that there are female commissars, and there's no physiological reason a woman could become a battle sister but not a storm trooper.From Cain's Last Stand, in describing Ciaphas Cain's female comisssar-cadet. It was described as a sociological construct rather than something based on physiology-- females as a whole tend to be pushed towards the Sisterhood, and the Stormtroopers and Commissariat were male-dominated because of this. Not EXCLUSIVELY male or female mind you.

[Nabterayl]

Ah, fair enough, Mel. Thanks! I'm still getting around to the Cain series in my search for useful background information.

[Javin]

Remember that there are many Storm trooper equivalents - aka Kasrkins. These Stormtrooper type soldiers receive the same training and equipment as inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Perhaps even better because they have been forged in combat before they can even earn the elite Stormtrooper status. Since they have been included in the IG codex, I would also think they are more common than many would estimate.

If we go from US Army figures - 570,000 with 4,000 being special ops that would be slightly under 1% would be Storm troopers. I am thinking the US Army Rangers as being veterans. In the BRB under the IG description there is a statement saying there are several million guardsman for every SM. Assuming that is 5,000,000 well, 5,000,000* 1,000,000 = 5,000,000,000,000. Do the 1% thing and you have 50,000,000,000 Stormtroopers... just in the IG.

Thats right, 50 TRILLION Stormtroopers.

Truely, the Hammer of the Emperor.

[Melissia]

No, I assure you that Schola trained Stormtroopers really ARE the best :P

They aren't random adults conscripted into duty and then they get lucky enough to survive long enough to become elite. They are trained from near-infancy as soldiers, and they get experience in combat before a most stormtrooper "equivalents" ever see their first military action.

[L192837465]

Remember that there are many Storm trooper equivalents - aka Kasrkins. These Stormtrooper type soldiers receive the same training and equipment as inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Perhaps even better because they have been forged in combat before they can even earn the elite Stormtrooper status. Since they have been included in the IG codex, I would also think they are more common than many would estimate.

If we go from US Army figures - 570,000 with 4,000 being special ops that would be slightly under 1% would be Storm troopers. I am thinking the US Army Rangers as being veterans. In the BRB under the IG description there is a statement saying there are several million guardsman for every SM. Assuming that is 5,000,000 well, 5,000,000* 1,000,000 = 5,000,000,000,000. Do the 1% thing and you have 50,000,000,000 Stormtroopers... just in the IG.

Thats right, 50 TRILLION Stormtroopers.

Truely, the Hammer of the Emperor.

Uh, that's 50 Billion. With a B. Sorry.

[Fellend]

No, I assure you that Schola trained Stormtroopers really ARE the best :P

They aren't random adults conscripted into duty and then they get lucky enough to survive long enough to become elite. They are trained from near-infancy as soldiers, and they get experience in combat before a most stormtrooper "equivalents" ever see their first military action.

And still they get whopped by one marine. tsk tsk tsk *Goes to read marinewank*

[Melissia]

Everything does in the hands of a ****ty writer. Which are most BL writers.

[DarkLink]

To be fair, a Marine is just like a Stormtrooper (trained from an extremely young age in the art of war), except the Marine has far, far, far better weapons and armor, plus a whole bunch of bio-enhancements.

[Melissia]

Marines don't start their training as young as Stormtroopers do.

[murrburger]

What ever happened to Legio Metallica (Ride the Lightning!)?

I really wish GW would expand the fluff on the Titan Legions/Mechanicus/Ecclesiarchy.

Those organisations are already far more interesting than SM. Oh, look, now they have three different types of Veterans.

1. Veterans that drop-pod in cause hell, then die.
2. Veterans that carry Captain level gear, hop out of a Land Raider and obliterate whatever is standing in front of them.
3. Veterans who suck and have wasted their lives. (The rest)

[Nabterayl]

Marines don't start their training as young as Stormtroopers do.
There's no way to be sure of that. Schola take orphans, not just those orphaned as infants. For instance, Ibram Gaunt entered at the age of what, ten? Roughly the same time as marine initiates begin their training - but while a ten-year-old marine initiate is training to be a soldier, a ten-year-old schola pupil is just going to school.

[Fellend]

As far as I know most chapter recruit from the teens, so the body is more or less fully grown and ready to adopt the modifications.

[Nabterayl]

Yes, that's correct. 10 is the earliest I've ever heard of marines recruiting.

[Kahoolin]

Divisio Telepathica - Smaller than the Military and Executive Orders, the Telepath Orders operate Psi-Titans and work from a single, secret Forge World at the heart of the Imperium.
Oooh Psi-Titans! That sounds pretty rad.


Marines don't start their training as young as Stormtroopers do.But they do have far longer active lives, barring accident. The average marine is going to be far more experienced, better equipped and a more effective warrior than your average storm trooper when taken as individuals.

[Sitnam]

No, I assure you that Schola trained Stormtroopers really ARE the best :P

They aren't random adults conscripted into duty and then they get lucky enough to survive long enough to become elite. They are trained from near-infancy as soldiers, and they get experience in combat before a most stormtrooper "equivalents" ever see their first military action.

However many of these planetary equivalents come from worlds dedicated to war, such as Cadia and Krieg, who also train their youth for war.

So is the consensus number of Sisters of Battle in the many thousands? That seems awfully and unsensibily small considering the strength of the Ecclesiarchy.

[Kahoolin]

However many of these planetary equivalents come from worlds dedicated to war, such as Cadia and Krieg, who also train their youth for war.

So is the consensus number of Sisters of Battle in the many thousands? That seems awfully and unsensibily small considering the strength of the Ecclesiarchy.Well we could make some assumptions based on what we know (although we know what they say about that...)

Premise #1: Most male progenii suited for military service become storm troopers.
Premise #2: Not all Storm Troopers come from Progenia.
Premise #3: Most female progenii suited for service become Sororitas.
Premise #4: All (or virtually all) sisters are progenii before being handed over to the Sororitas.

This is where we get into assumptions:

Say half of stormies are progenii, the other half are world-specific equivalents. I say this because even though there are presumably more Schola facilities than ST producing worlds, worlds like Krieg or Cadia would throw up far more ST equivalents than a Schola Progenium on a similar sized world.

So if we take the number of STs who were progenii to be roughly half of the total number of STs, and we assume that the number of progenii who become sisters is (very) roughly similar to those who become STs, there should be about half as many sisters as storm troopers in the galaxy. Assuming that the militant orders are only about, say 1/10th of that total, then using Javin's math (and L192837465's correction!) we get about 25 million militant sororitas (I think).

That sounds plausible, although it conflicts with the WH codex. Then again, what doesn't? That thing is leaky as a sieve.

[Melissia]

It doesn't conflict C:WH. C:WH does not give a limit on the number of Minor Orders. Not even a guesstimation.

[Kahoolin]

That's true. There could be bazillions of them, each with a couple of hundred sisters. Maybe every shrine world has its own order, and the Orders Majoris are just the ones from major shrines?

[Melissia]

The Major Orders are split between shrines Holy Terra and Ophelia VII, the second most holy world in the Imperium. The former we know quite well, and the latter already blocked a Tyranid invasion IIRC.

[imperialsavant]

Ah, fair enough, Mel. Thanks! I'm still getting around to the Cain series in my search for useful background information.

:) Ahhh Mate! You will LOVE them!
Lots of Action, Humour & good background.
I think you will love Cain's prejudces & slant on things.Look out for his first meeting with a Kroot. Incredable!:D

[Kahoolin]

I think you will love Cain's prejudces & slant on things.Look out for his first meeting with a Kroot. Incredable!:DWhich one is that in? I've read Cain's Last Stand and Duty Calls.

Anyone who likes Cain should check out the Flashman books by G.M. Fraser. They are basically the same thing, only set in the 1800s and Flashman is more cowardly, womanizing and treacherous than Cain - a true anti-hero. They are really funny and full of fantastic military and historical detail.

I can only forgive Sandy Mitchell for so shamelessly copying Flashman because well . . . even though Cain is just Flashman in space, Flashman in space is still pretty damn cool.

[Nabterayl]

Well we could make some assumptions based on what we know (although we know what they say about that...)

Premise #1: Most male progenii suited for military service become storm troopers.
Premise #2: Not all Storm Troopers come from Progenia.
Premise #3: Most female progenii suited for service become Sororitas.
Premise #4: All (or virtually all) sisters are progenii before being handed over to the Sororitas.
#2 is incorrect. If you're a storm trooper, you come from a schola progenium. Lots of Guard regiments have troopers who are arguably of storm trooper quality (e.g., Shock Troop kasrkin, Death Korps grenadiers, Tanith scouts), but they aren't storm troopers in the strict sense of the word. Storm troopers come from a schola, by definition.


So if we take the number of STs who were progenii to be roughly half of the total number of STs, and we assume that the number of progenii who become sisters is (very) roughly similar to those who become STs, there should be about half as many sisters as storm troopers in the galaxy. Assuming that the militant orders are only about, say 1/10th of that total, then using Javin's math (and L192837465's correction!) we get about 25 million militant sororitas (I think).

That sounds plausible, although it conflicts with the WH codex. Then again, what doesn't? That thing is leaky as a sieve.
So with the premise correction above, we arrive at 50 million?

I find that ... not implausible, but let me offer a couple of countervailing considerations that I don't think have been discussed:

We're assuming that roughly 50% of all progenii are women. That isn't necessarily true. You have to be the child of an Imperial servant who died in the service to be accepted, but the Ghost novels heavily imply that you still have to be accepted - i.e., it's not as if every orphan of a veteran has a right to attend. So it could be that the student bodies are weighted toward men.
The strength of the Ecclesiarchy has never been described as its standing army, as far as I know. Wars of faith are fought by the Guard, the Navy, the frateris militia (i.e., mobs of religious zealots), and the Sororitas - not by Ecclesiarchical regulars exclusively. There is no need for the Ecclesiarchy to have enough battle sisters to fight wars on its own - and indeed we have good reason to believe that is not the case, since battle sisters are not equipped to fight wars on their own. If the military strength of the Ecclesiarchy were truly founded upon the Orders Militant, we'd expect those orders to be organized differently than they are. So there's nothing in the fluff that requires millions upon millions of battle sisters.

[eldargal]

There are approximately one million Space Marines, which are considered quite rare. Nothing in the fluff says Adepta Sororitas are rare, though nothing says they aren't, either. Given that the Adepta Sororitas are the Chamber Militant of the Ecclesiarchy, which itself is the largest institution in the Imperium, I think the fighting strength of the Adepta Sororitas would have be at least one million and possibly many millions.

All this is just supposition, of course.

[Melissia]

#2 is incorrect. If you're a storm trooper, you come from a schola progenium. Lots of Guard regiments have troopers who are arguably of storm trooper quality (e.g., Shock Troop kasrkin, Death Korps grenadiers, Tanith scouts), but they aren't storm troopers in the strict sense of the word. Storm troopers come from a schola, by definition.
Not ENTIRELY true. The Inquisition can forward people to be trained as Stormtroopers, but that is usually done at a schola anyway, or at least with other true Stormtroopers.


Wars of faith are fought by the Guard, the Navy, the frateris militia (
Prove it.

Current fluff says the Sisters propogate the Ecclesiarchy's Wars of Faith . Yes, other members of the Imperium assist the Sisters, but it is the Sisters whom are the primary combatants.

[Kahoolin]

#2 is incorrect. If you're a storm trooper, you come from a schola progenium. Lots of Guard regiments have troopers who are arguably of storm trooper quality (e.g., Shock Troop kasrkin, Death Korps grenadiers, Tanith scouts), but they aren't storm troopers in the strict sense of the word. Storm troopers come from a schola, by definition.Well you're right, if we are using the term "storm trooper" literally. I thought (based on the earlier posts) that we were using "storm trooper" to mean storm trooper equivalents, i.e. any unit that you would use the C:IG Storm Troopers entry to represent in game, such as Schola trained stormies, Kasrkin or Krieg Grenadiers.

If I wasn't using the word in that sense then my premise #2 would be a bit silly now wouldn't it? ;)

In fact, by writing "not all STs are progenii" I was hoping to imply that I was including all ST equivalents. If I wasn't then that premise would indeed have been patently false.

[addamsfamily36]

Although standard Inquisition Storm troopers come from Schola Progenium variants DO come from different sources.

Kasrkin :
Kasrkin are part of the Imperial Guard Structure and are dedicated to the security of Cadia. Their name comes from the title of the cities of Cadia, which are "Kasrs". Thus, City Kin.
These are the elite of the already superior Cadian military and are picked up while still serving as Whiteshields in the Cadian armed forces. Their training is comparable, if not better to that of Storm Troopers (they are the Cadian equivalent) and they are utterly dedicated to the preservation of Cadia, whereas Storm Troopers are indoctrinated to the defense of the entire Imperium.
They are highly trained in the use of numerous weapons, and are armoured with Carapace Armour. They have an ethos of duty and honour and a devotion to the Emperor that is impressive for members of the Imperial Guard.5 Whereas the standard Storm Trooper is looked down upon in envy by Imperial Guardsmen, the standard Kasrkin is looked up to with favour. They are the ultimate warrior to fight against the enemies of the Imperium (such as the forces of Chaos), and they lead the charge in the defense of Cadia. To be a Kasrkin is to hold a position of honour, and all Cadians recognize this.

But there soul purpose is the defense and protection of cadia, whereas the storm troopers are deployed across the imperium. so its a case of whether or not you include variants in the total or if you split them down into categories.

[Javin]

In several books (I know not reliable) Storm-trooper equivalents go out with Cadian regiments. We know the Krieg regiments field Storm troopers rather frequently.

However, there are billions of them (thanks for the correction) just in the IG alone. Who know what elite militia units are hanging around in the million plus worlds of the Imperium?

Finding out how many Sisters would be more interesting to me.

[Faultie]

Well we could make some assumptions based on what we know (although we know what they say about that...)

Premise #1: Most male progenii suited for military service become storm troopers.
Premise #2: Not all Storm Troopers come from Progenia.
Premise #3: Most female progenii suited for service become Sororitas.
Premise #4: All (or virtually all) sisters are progenii before being handed over to the Sororitas.

#2 is incorrect. If you're a storm trooper, you come from a schola progenium. Lots of Guard regiments have troopers who are arguably of storm trooper quality (e.g., Shock Troop kasrkin, Death Korps grenadiers, Tanith scouts), but they aren't storm troopers in the strict sense of the word. Storm troopers come from a schola, by definition.
While we're poking holes in these Premises, I'd like to point out that Premise #1 is also flawed, if only implicitly. "suited for military service" is a very open phrase. If you mean males in good physical form with a good amount of combat prowess, you're wrong. There's a great many Commissars in the Guard, and there are also many Adeptus Arbites, all of which come from Schola Progenia as well. I'm not sure about ISTs, but while the Commissariat and Arbites may be male-dominated, they are far from solely male in terms of recruitment. I would wager that, with the assumption that there was only a handful of Adeptus Arbites on each Imperial world, and there are "over a million" worlds in the Imperium, and also assuming there was only one Commissar per Imperial Guard Regiment (and there are "millions of" regiments), at bare minimum we're looking at many millions of individuals drawn from the Schola Progenia that don't go into either the Sororitas or the IST regiments. If I recall the quote correctly, "many" of the female progena are recruited into the Sororitas. That implies are significant sum, if not a majority, I think. I'm personally of the mind that "many thousands" of Sororitas means hundreds, not tens or dozens, but that's open to interpretation.

However, "the Stormtrooper Regiment" of the IG (note the singular) is split up and sent all over the galaxy with other Imperial Guard regiments. The singular Regiment isn't incredibly numerous (5e codex doesn't specify how many in it, but the 3e codex says 10,000). They have a "constant influx" of new recruits, so we could say that they have high attrition, but there's ~10,000 at any given time (you could even say that it's a gargantuan regiment of 50,000 and it's still small relative to other forces). Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are a separate set of individuals, recruited from Schola Progenium facilities as well as certain families with histories of service, which guard Inquisitorial Fortresses, attach to individual Inquisitors for strike missions, etc.

What all this means is this: there are WAY more Sororitas (or Commissars, or Arbites, etc.) coming out of Schola Progenia than there are Imperial Guard Stormtroopers. There are also far more "Stormtrooper-equivalents" (Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, etc.) than there are proper Stormtroopers. There is an unknown number of these ISTs, but it is probably more than 10,000 (since there are lots of fortresses).

[BlackKnight15624]

Yes, that's correct. 10 is the earliest I've ever heard of marines recruiting.

That's true- generally 11 years old for marine inductions.

The Ultramarines recruit from the various training academies throughout Ultramar- most notably Agiselus Barracks, who normally take recruits at age 6. Their military training begins here, and those who do not make it into the Ultramarines normally go into the Macragge PDF.

A stormtrooper starts training at an early age (say, 5, to give an arbitrary young age), and starts at 18- that's roughly 13 years of training. A marine starts at 11, and becomes a full-fledged marine at roughly the same age. So they receive less time-in-training than a Stormtrooper before becoming a full-fledged brother. However, Marines live a heck of a lot longer than stormtroopers (in Courage and Honour, you learn that Sergeant Learchus is roughly 90 years out of the scout auxilia, putting him at around 110-120). Thus, what marines may lack in time-in-training, they make up for in longevity.

I guess it's not really fair to compare Stormtroopers' training to Marines'.

[Gotthammer]

Oooh Psi-Titans! That sounds pretty rad.

They are described in Adeptus Titanicus as 'the dreaded Psi-Titans' too boot. Unfortunately any rules for them were in a White Dwarf some twenty years ago, so I've no idea if they even had any (though I don't think they ever did).



What ever happened to Legio Metallica (Ride the Lightning!)?

I really wish GW would expand the fluff on the Titan Legions/Mechanicus/Ecclesiarchy.


Legio Metallica was prettymuch destroyed during Armageddon II, and fought in Armageddon III, and is presumably still fighting the remnants of Orks there and in surrounding systems.

'Ride The Lighting' is the battlecry of Poena Metallica, an Imperial Dreadnought unit, as opposed to a Titan Legion though.



Yes, that's correct. 10 is the earliest I've ever heard of marines recruiting.

Red Scorpions 'recruit' by taking newborns, but it's never stated as when they decide who will become a marine from those taken.

[Fellend]

Don't most take from warriors that have proven themselves? They let natural trials take and everyday life (in the 40th millenium) take care of it before they pick out which ones they want?
(reference, space wolf books, blood angels books, black templar comics, Dawn of war 2)

I'd think most kids wouldn't have full battle experience by that age. I mean sure they might have participated but I doubt any tribal village would make 11 year olds or lower into full fledged warriors.

Obviously there are to many chapters and ways of recruiting to say it isn't so but still.

[Kahoolin]

While we're poking holes in these Premises, I'd like to point out that Premise #1 is also flawed, if only implicitly. "suited for military service" is a very open phrase. If you mean males in good physical form with a good amount of combat prowess, you're wrong. There's a great many Commissars in the Guard, and there are also many Adeptus Arbites, all of which come from Schola Progenia as well.For some reason I assumed that Commissars are rarer than storm troopers. I think snippets of fluff over the years have hinted that commissars and storm troopers share their training until those with leadership potential are identified and handed over to the Commissariat. Unfortunately I can't back this up with anything specific (maybe someone else can), but if it's true then commissars are the cream of the storm trooper recruits and so would be far less numerous than stormies. Based on that, I felt it safe to assume that the number of progeny who become commissars is negligible. But I could be wrong, it's happened many times :)

I must admit I forgot about the Arbites.

[Fellend]

For some reason I assumed that Commissars are rarer than storm troopers. I think snippets of fluff over the years have hinted that commissars and storm troopers share their training until those with leadership potential are identified and handed over to the Commissariat. Unfortunately I can't back this up with anything specific (maybe someone else can), but if it's true then commissars are the cream of the storm trooper recruits and so would be far less numerous than stormies. Based on that, I felt it safe to assume that the number of progeny who become commissars is negligible. But I could be wrong, it's happened many times :)

I must admit I forgot about the Arbites.

Having leadership qualities have nothing to do with actual combat efficiency. I got 10 (out of ten) on leadership skills in the army but I'm a lousy soldier. (I play with plastic toys ffs)
So most likely they don't take the best storm troopers, the best storm troopers become sergeants of lieutenants. The commisarat probably takes the most ruthless and "inspiring" subjects.

[Melissia]

The best Stormtroopers become Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

[Sitnam]

However, "the Stormtrooper Regiment" of the IG (note the singular) is split up and sent all over the galaxy with other Imperial Guard regiments. The singular Regiment isn't incredibly numerous (5e codex doesn't specify how many in it, but the 3e codex says 10,000). They have a "constant influx" of new recruits, so we could say that they have high attrition, but there's ~10,000 at any given time (you could even say that it's a gargantuan regiment of 50,000 and it's still small relative to other forces). Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are a separate set of individuals, recruited from Schola Progenium facilities as well as certain families with histories of service, which guard Inquisitorial Fortresses, attach to individual Inquisitors for strike missions, etc.

What all this means is this: there are WAY more Sororitas (or Commissars, or Arbites, etc.) coming out of Schola Progenia than there are Imperial Guard Stormtroopers. There are also far more "Stormtrooper-equivalents" (Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, etc.) than there are proper Stormtroopers. There is an unknown number of these ISTs, but it is probably more than 10,000 (since there are lots of fortresses).

While it may only be a single regiment, the regiment never deploys in force. They deploy in companies, and we know from the Taros book that there are at least 2378 ST companies. If there are say, 150 men per company, that is well over 300,000 men.

Also, if we assume that there are IST's on every Inquisitorial fortress and Black Ship, which are numerous, then we must assume that there are more ST's out there. IST's are the best ST's out there. According to the Cain books they make up a small fraction, I think like 5% of all ST's. Giving how many inquisitors exist across the galaxy, and how danm big the galaxy is, I think there is evidence for ST's going far beyond 10k or 50k in strength. The Imperium has in-numerous planets and in-numerous battlezones to fight across. In a galaxy so large, even if every ST company was flung somewhere different across the universe, it doesn't make proper sense for them to only number in the thousands (the same thing goes for Battle Sisters).

Also, ST's and Commisars may go to the same school, but at some point they receive different training. ST's are elite combat specialists, whereas the skills needed for the Commissariat vary wildly from ST's. But commisars arent elite ST's, as Melissia points out they are IST's.

Persoanlly in a Imperium with millions of worlds, billions/trillions of Guardsmen and god knows how many battlezones, the flow of orphans to the Schola Progenium is rich and plenty. If only a fraction of orphans are accepted, and only a fraction become elite troops (SOB/ST/Commisar/Arbites.) that number could still be in the billions given how large the Guard is.

[Melissia]

Stormtroopers aren't elite combat specialists per se, so much as they are the epitome of what makes a good spec-ops unit. They are extremely efficient, highly professional, silent, sneaky, highly capable combatants. In fact they're the only thing in the Imperium that really does work as a true special forces unit (Marines don't quite do it, and certainly Sisters don't).

Sisters are the Schola's elite combat specialists. Sisters are frontline soldiers, while Stormtroopers spec-ops agents.

[Kahoolin]

Having leadership qualities have nothing to do with actual combat efficiency. I got 10 (out of ten) on leadership skills in the army but I'm a lousy soldier. (I play with plastic toys ffs)
So most likely they don't take the best storm troopers, the best storm troopers become sergeants of lieutenants. The commisarat probably takes the most ruthless and "inspiring" subjects.Sorry I guess I meant leadership potential + the other qualities of a good soldier (courage, intelligence, ability to think on your feet and remember your training at the same time, etc).

Geez every time I write a post I end up having to qualify it! :o

[Sitnam]

Stormtroopers aren't elite combat specialists per se, so much as they are the epitome of what makes a good spec-ops unit. They are extremely efficient, highly professional, silent, sneaky, highly capable combatants. In fact they're the only thing in the Imperium that really does work as a true special forces unit (Marines don't quite do it, and certainly Sisters don't).

Sisters are the Schola's elite combat specialists. Sisters are frontline soldiers, while Stormtroopers spec-ops agents.
Eh I guess that makes sense. Especially given the fact that the whole stormtrooper program may exist for the needs of the Inquisition, who can always use small efficient teams who wont break down in the face of a witch psyker or daemon.

[Melissia]

Indeed, it's pretty much explicitly stated by Inquisitor Vail in the Ciaphas Cain series taht the only reason Stormtroopers exist is to produce that top one percent of Stormtroopers that will serve the Inquisition-- all other Stormtroopers serve the Guard.

[Lerra]

We're assuming that roughly 50% of all progenii are women. That isn't necessarily true. You have to be the child of an Imperial servant who died in the service to be accepted, but the Ghost novels heavily imply that you still have to be accepted - i.e., it's not as if every orphan of a veteran has a right to attend. So it could be that the student bodies are weighted toward men.

On the other hand, it could be weighted toward women, especially if there is a strong need for Sororitas recruits. It's hard to know without a reasonable estimate of how large the sororitas is. For all we know, progenii are 90% women because they need so many sisters.

I think you could reasonably put the sororitas anywhere between 20 million and a few hundred million. Considering the massive size of the imperium and the ecclesiarchy, even a few hundred million is a rather small number.

[Nabterayl]

Prove it.

Current fluff says the Sisters propogate the Ecclesiarchy's Wars of Faith . Yes, other members of the Imperium assist the Sisters, but it is the Sisters whom are the primary combatants.
The Navy's involvement is a given, unless wars of faith are prosecuted without either troop ships or warships. The frateris militia's involvement is also a given, is it not (though as far as I understand the FM, they aren't really troops so much as angry camp followers, so I rather doubt that they're ever expected to do any heavy lifting :p).

Which leaves us with deducing the role of the Guard in a war of faith. Here I think it's worth qualifying my statement, since wars of faith seem to vary radically in size. I'd expect the Guard to play a primary role in any war of faith that involved serious resistance. Cutting a swath through hapless religious dissidents and Chaos militia is one thing, and I'm sure the Sororitas would excel at that without any outside support. But I just can't buy the Ecclesiarchy prosecuting a war of faith against a heretic army without an army of its own, much less successfully prosecuting one. And if you want to prosecute a war with an army in the Imperium, you need the Guard - they're the only army the Imperium has that is equipped to take the fight to the enemy.

By the way, on the storm trooper "regiment" fluff - I wonder if that's outdated. IA7 page 8 references "Inquisitorial storm trooper regiments," plural. If the ranks of the ISTs comprise the top 1% or so of the Imperium's storm troopers, and if there are enough ISTs to form multiple regiments - even small ones - then either there must be more than one regular storm trooper regiment or, as others have suggested, that single "regiment" must be the biggest damn regiment in the Imperium by a wide margin.

[Melissia]

But I just can't buy the Ecclesiarchy prosecuting a war of faith against a heretic army without an army of its own

... IE the Sisters.

The fluff does not always make sense or act consistently, but an army of Sisters IS an army. It's not as large as the Guard, but it's certainly more than capable of taking the fight to the enemy. If we're talking Epic level battles with titans, yes, they'd rather want outside help, but when we have stories of 1000 Sisters invading and liberating 100 planets on their own-- amongst other stories-- it seems to me to reasonably consider the Sisters an army. They have their strengths and weaknesses, but then so do the Guard, and a Major Order can certainly bring enough bodies on the field ot make a properly sized invasion force.

Thing is, we don't have enough background out there to make a determination either way, so all of this is just speculation...

[Nabterayl]

... IE the Sisters.

The fluff does not always make sense or act consistently, but an army of Sisters IS an army. It's not as large as the Guard, but it's certainly more than capable of taking the fight to the enemy. If we're talking Epic level battles with titans, yes, they'd rather want outside help, but when we have stories of 1000 Sisters invading and liberating 100 planets on their own-- amongst other stories-- it seems to me to reasonably consider the Sisters an army. They have their strengths and weaknesses, but then so do the Guard, and a Major Order can certainly bring enough bodies on the field ot make a properly sized invasion force.
We do have the story of St. Aspira, yes, but we have no way of knowing what kind of forces she faced - and in any case, the fact that she has a major relic named after her suggests that she was considered exceptional.

"Epic level" isn't that big. It would take four hundred stands of infantry to represent a single, small Imperial Guard regiment - eight times that many to represent some of the larger regiments we know of. Epic is a game of company- and battalion-level actions; it is not a game that depicts the actions of armies. It doesn't even depict the actions of regiments.

So, respectfully, I don't think we can say that an Order Majoris can bring enough bodies to the field to make a "proper" invasion force, if by "proper" we mean a force that can engage and defeat a Guard-style opponent. Judging by the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, a small Imperial Guard invasion seems to consist of three or so regiments plus supporting armor and artillery - call it five regiments total. Assuming the regiments in question are neither very small nor very large, that comes out to something like 15,000-20,000 infantry, 100 or so heavy tanks, and something on the order of 200 self-propelled artillery pieces, plus light armor to the tune of about 150 chassis, another 150 or so light walkers, and about half a dozen super-heavy tanks. Even if you cut the regiments down to 50% strength you're still dealing with a very formidable force (and one that is at least an order of magnitude outside the scope of Epic). When do we ever hear of Sororitas facing down, without ground support, 10,000 infantry, 50 Leman Russ equivalents, 75 non-artillery Chimera variants, 70-80 Basilisks, 20 smaller artillery pieces, 75 Sentinels, and three Baneblade variants? I've never even heard of space marines facing down that kind of force without ground support. And that's not even an army. A really, really small army is twice that size - at least, if it's made of opponents who know what they're doing. That's the benchmark for being able to "take the fight to the enemy" - again, excluding enemies that are not military forces.

As you know, I agree with you that the Sororitas are more of an army than the Astartes. But I don't think that even Sororitas qualify as an "army." They don't have the weaponry to hold ground for any appreciable period of time. They have heavy tanks, which is something, but they don't have any long-ranged artillery (at least as of the most recent codex). Those aren't "weaknesses." They're wholesale omissions. Calling the Sororitas an army is like calling the Marine Corps an army.

[Faultie]

While it may only be a single regiment, the regiment never deploys in force. They deploy in companies, and we know from the Taros book that there are at least 2378 ST companies. If there are say, 150 men per company, that is well over 300,000 men.I like your conjecture, but the codices say otherwise. The idea of 2378 ST Companies (at least) goes right along with what I was saying about attrition. Companies may be wiped out completely, and new companies formed, all within the 10,000 strong Regiment. Still, if we stick to the IG Codex, that's all there is at one time.

The =I= Codex (WH or DH doesn't matter) specifies that the ISTs come from both the Schola Progenia and families with a history of serving the Inquisition. Thus, they are separate, and are not part of the IG Storm Trooper Regiment. Thus, there can be >10,000.

Commissars, whatever their training, exist in vastly greater numbers than the 10,000 (or even 10 times that number) IG Storm Troopers. That was my main point regarding the Commissariat and Adeptus Arbites. Also, IGST equivalents outnumber the actual Regiment as well.

[Kahoolin]

The idea of 2378 ST Companies (at least) goes right along with what I was saying about attrition. Companies may be wiped out completely, and new companies formed, all within the 10,000 strong Regiment. Still, if we stick to the IG Codex, that's all there is at one time.If we stick to the 3rd ed IG codex that is, but should we? I can think of two good reasons to ignore that figure. Firstly, there have been two codexes since then, neither of which perpetuated the claim that there are only 10,000 storm troopers. Either or both could have repeated that number if it seemed reasonable. Secondly (and more importantly to my mind), it doesn't seem reasonable. 10,000 is a really small number in 40k terms. That would mean there are 100 Astartes bare minimum for every storm trooper. That really doesn't seem right.

Basically, Im not sure we are justified in working under the assumption that there are only 10,000 storm troopers in the Imperium based solely on the word of the 3rd edition codex.

[Melissia]

When do we ever hear of Sororitas facing down, without ground support, 10,000 infantry, 50 Leman Russ equivalents, 75 non-artillery Chimera variants, 70-80 Basilisks, 20 smaller artillery pieces, 75 Sentinels, and three Baneblade variants?

I have a better question... when do we ever hear of Sororitas, period?

You have your interpretation of events, but the fluff is so vague, so out of date, so limited, that I'm not certain either of us can prove our points of view. I imagine that deployments of a thousand Sisters or more are not uncommon in large warzones, possibly ten thousand. But I have no proof. It just somehow seems appropriate that a Major Order would gather such forces and crusade across a planet.

Do you know just how many are present on Armageddon, and were during the war for Armageddon? How many took part in stopping the Tau expansions? How many took part in fighting off the Tyranids? How many took part-- and continue to take part-- in fighting for Cadia?

[Necrosis]

As you know, I agree with you that the Sororitas are more of an army than the Astartes. But I don't think that even Sororitas qualify as an "army." They don't have the weaponry to hold ground for any appreciable period of time. They have heavy tanks, which is something, but they don't have any long-ranged artillery (at least as of the most recent codex). Those aren't "weaknesses." They're wholesale omissions. Calling the Sororitas an army is like calling the Marine Corps an army.

The are an army. They can field many companies when going to war. They can easily hold ground, hell that is what they are most famous for, holding ground when every other army would break. Exorcist tanks can be used as artillery. They are an army.

[Nabterayl]

The are an army. They can field many companies when going to war. They can easily hold ground, hell that is what they are most famous for, holding ground when every other army would break. Exorcist tanks can be used as artillery. They are an army.
"Many companies" doesn't mean much when a small army can consist of hundreds. Exorcists may be artillery, but they clearly aren't long-range artillery - if you're being shelled by Basilisks, you can't reply with Exorcists, and if you want to shell the enemy with Exorcists, you're going to have been in range of their big guns for many kilometers before you can start shooting. And Sisters may be famous for the tenacity of their defense, but they're still armed with bolters, which places certain inherent limitations on their ability to hold ground for long periods of time - besides the fact that they're all elite soldiers, and using elite soldiers for garrison duty in an active warzone where one is attacking is never a good idea.


I have a better question... when do we ever hear of Sororitas, period?

You have your interpretation of events, but the fluff is so vague, so out of date, so limited, that I'm not certain either of us can prove our points of view. I imagine that deployments of a thousand Sisters or more are not uncommon in large warzones, possibly ten thousand. But I have no proof. It just somehow seems appropriate that a Major Order would gather such forces and crusade across a planet.

Do you know just how many are present on Armageddon, and were during the war for Armageddon? How many took part in stopping the Tau expansions? How many took part in fighting off the Tyranids? How many took part-- and continue to take part-- in fighting for Cadia?
I can tell you that during the Third War for Armageddon, when the Season of Fire caused the first detente in the year's fighting after Ghazghkull's plan was in full swing, there were four commanderies and one preceptory of Sororitas on Armageddon (Epic p. 70 (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320001_EPIC_updated_rulebook-sections_5_Oct09.pdf)), which is an upper boundary of 1,800 Sororitas, contributed by four Orders Majoris and one Order Minoris (this is, it should be noted, immediately after Our Martyred Lady's stand at Tempestora).

It's hardly conclusive, since we have no way of knowing how many sisters of Our Martyred Lady were on Armaggedon before the first Season of Fire, and it may be that the other orders contributed small forces because there were so many sisters from Our Martyred Lady. Still, it's at least a hard number, which as you have noted are lamentably hard to come by. Also, for what it's worth (which admittedly is not much), the Sororitas deployment patterns are in line with those of the Astartes - even to the largest warzones imaginable, most chapters will deploy a single company. Similarly, whatever the reason, most of those Orders that responded deployed a single commandery. The space marines sent one full chapter, and the Sororitas sent one full preceptory, which seems to be the equivalent formation (in that a preceptory, like a chapter, is almost never a single fighting unit but a network of related fighting units).

[Melissia]

I always assumed it was mostly the Order of Our Martyred Lady who sent most of the forces at first so that they would lose the most forces (devastating the order, but not wiping it out), in order to cement their reputation as the Sisters' version of the Lamenters instead of trying to make the army appear epic and cool.

[Sitnam]

I like your conjecture, but the codices say otherwise. The idea of 2378 ST Companies (at least) goes right along with what I was saying about attrition. Companies may be wiped out completely, and new companies formed, all within the 10,000 strong Regiment. Still, if we stick to the IG Codex, that's all there is at one time.

The =I= Codex (WH or DH doesn't matter) specifies that the ISTs come from both the Schola Progenia and families with a history of serving the Inquisition. Thus, they are separate, and are not part of the IG Storm Trooper Regiment. Thus, there can be >10,000.

Commissars, whatever their training, exist in vastly greater numbers than the 10,000 (or even 10 times that number) IG Storm Troopers. That was my main point regarding the Commissariat and Adeptus Arbites. Also, IGST equivalents outnumber the actual Regiment as well.

However we have fluff saying that IST's are the top 1% of all ST regiments so its pretty clear the fluff is old and contradicting itself. We dont know how the Imperium considers lost companies/regiments. However we do know that some of the Vraksian Krieg regiments number as low as the 3rd and that Cadian regiments still number that low as of the 13th Black Crusade. Given their status as troop-making planets, we can assume that the Imperium reuses regimental numbers as it is doubtful those regiments weren't destroyed in their original foundings.

The fluff on 10,000 stormtroopers is quite old (2003?) whilst the IA Books are newer. Everything else we have seems to support a force >10000 ST's (Atleast in my eyes). Common sense also tells us that. Even if they deploy in company sized formations flung across the universe, 10000 doesnt make a lick of difference in 40k.

[Sitnam]

You have your interpretation of events, but the fluff is so vague, so out of date, so limited, that I'm not certain either of us can prove our points of view. I imagine that deployments of a thousand Sisters or more are not uncommon in large warzones, possibly ten thousand. But I have no proof. It just somehow seems appropriate that a Major Order would gather such forces and crusade across a planet.



Which is a good point for all the elites we have been talking about: We don't have anything one way or another thta is current; and most of what we have contradicts itself or plain ol' common sense.

[Kahoolin]

I can tell you that during the Third War for Armageddon, when the Season of Fire caused the first detente in the year's fighting after Ghazghkull's plan was in full swing, there were four commanderies and one preceptory of Sororitas on Armageddon (Epic p. 70 (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320001_EPIC_updated_rulebook-sections_5_Oct09.pdf)), which is an upper boundary of 1,800 Sororitas, contributed by four Orders Majoris and one Order Minoris (this is, it should be noted, immediately after Our Martyred Lady's stand at Tempestora).Just out of interest Nab, where do you get 1800 from? I thought commanderies and preceptories varied in size, and since we have no idea how many sisters make up an Order Maj. (let alone a Order Min.) we are going to have trouble suggesting figures for a "typical" commandery.

A commandery of the Argent Shroud might have thousands of Battle Sisters, and one of Our Lady of the Miniature Shrine only twenty or so.

[Melissia]

Kahoolin: Technically we do... second edition C:SoB (at least, IIRC) has this:

Mission: A few squads led by a Palatine or Canoness Missionary
Commandery: 200 Sisters led by a Canoness Commander, probably five missions.
Preceptory: 1000 Sisters led by a Canoness Preceptor, probably five commanderies.
Order: Several or many preceptories, led by a Canoness Superior.

And the entire organization is led by the Abbess Sanctorum, whom is also a High Lord of Terra whenever there is an Abbess.

[Kahoolin]

Oh OK.

I mean . . . ARGH! More stupid numbers that defy common sense that we now have to take into account! Thanks GW!

[Sitnam]

Well I dont think those numbers defy sense to badly, if a major order is made of a vast number of preceptories, then Sisters could well outnumber marines, which they should given their importance in the Ecclesiarchy. And even if they range in the low millions they would still be a powerful force. Sisters are well trained and well armored, so a small force can do just as much as a larger gaurd forces in many instances.

[Faultie]

The fluff on 10,000 stormtroopers is quite old (2003?) whilst the IA Books are newer. Everything else we have seems to support a force >10000 ST's (Atleast in my eyes). Common sense also tells us that. Even if they deploy in company sized formations flung across the universe, 10000 doesnt make a lick of difference in 40k.
The 5e IG codex also states "the Storm Trooper Regiment" (also says that "the Imperial Guard offers a place in one of the elite Storm Trooper companies"), so 10,000 is a usable number because it is not contradicted (and speculation does not make it so). Further, the 5e Core Rulebook states that IG regiments range from a few hundred to several tens of thousands. Thus, 10,000 qualifies as a mid-sized regiment (based on the variability), but 'several' (being a number more than two but not many) implies that there are far from 100s of thousands (much less "millions") of IG Storm Troopers. The 5e IG Codex notes the Valhallan 18th as an exceptionally large regiment (120,000men) and the Vostroyan 24th (<1500men) as particularly small. If some Black Library Novel or a FW book contradicts the core rulebook or the IG codex, that's just too bad.

Do these numbers make sense? I don't think so.
Is it the canon we have from GW? I'm afraid so.

[Kahoolin]

Do these numbers make sense? I don't think so.
Is it the canon we have from GW? I'm afraid so.That's a fair enough position to take I guess. I prefer to choose common sense over canonicity though, because to me believability is key to the fun with stuff like this. If something doesn't seem believable to me in the context of the 40k universe, even if Rick Priestley himself carved it on a stone tablet I'm going to have to go ahead and say it's wrong.

[Melissia]

Yes, well, to me it's believable for there to be tens if not hundreds of milions of Battle Sisters, but there's no canon to support it (just technically no canon that opposes such a stance, as it doesn't give an upward limit)

[Javin]

Faultie,

We can agree and both be right. Official Stormtroops may number 10,000. However Special operations troops, like the Karskin (who are only from one city in Cadia, and there are many many cities in Cadia) are numerous and all over the Imperium. These troops are equipped and trained in a similar as Storm Troops.

If you look at the military around the world special operations troopers are roughly 1% of the military. The 40K world is far more militarized and war experienced than most places (except maybe the Middle East and parts of Africa).

Too few think in the scale of 40k, and how could we? The scale of the Imperium beggars the mind. In 40K the entire population of Earth could fit into one Hive Spire with plenty of room to spare. I understand the need to shrink down the size of the Imperial armed forces so the mind can wrap around the numbers.

Since there are over a million worlds in the Imperium, and each has a massive standing army (which is actually really small when compared to the average Imperial population). On page 8 of the 5E IG codex Armageddon is said to draft at least 100,000,000 Soldiers a year (but is only a fraction of the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of the population). This is an AVERAGE :eek: draft for a hive in a warzone, and in the darkness of 40k there is only war.

If only one in 1% of all the worlds were hive worlds and only 1% of those were at war than 1,000,000 *.01 = 10000. 10000 * .01 = 100. 100 * 100,000,000 = an annual IG draft PER YEAR of 10,000,000,000 or roughly twice the population of Earth every year. And this is only from 100 planets out of over a million worlds.

I do not have a problem with Billions of Storm trooper equivalents. After all, if every world just had 100 Storm troopers (highly unlikely considering the sizes of the military and the non stop combat of the 40k universe) we are still looking at a hundred million Storm trooper equivalents. If we went with 1% of the IG, Storm trooper equivalents would be in the billions.

[Melissia]

Hundreds of billions, actually. Not that Stormtrooper "equivalents" really exist, there might be ones whom claimt o be equivalent, but very few that actually are.

That aside, however, just there being a stromtrooper "regiment" doesnt' mean anything as far as numbers go. It could merely be an organizational separation, a formal and irrelevant one at that.

[Sitnam]

The 5e IG codex also states "the Storm Trooper Regiment" (also says that "the Imperial Guard offers a place in one of the elite Storm Trooper companies"), so 10,000 is a usable number because it is not contradicted (and speculation does not make it so). Further, the 5e Core Rulebook states that IG regiments range from a few hundred to several tens of thousands. Thus, 10,000 qualifies as a mid-sized regiment (based on the variability), but 'several' (being a number more than two but not many) implies that there are far from 100s of thousands (much less "millions") of IG Storm Troopers. The 5e IG Codex notes the Valhallan 18th as an exceptionally large regiment (120,000men) and the Vostroyan 24th (<1500men) as particularly small. If some Black Library Novel or a FW book contradicts the core rulebook or the IG codex, that's just too bad.

Do these numbers make sense? I don't think so.
Is it the canon we have from GW? I'm afraid so.

However those books are also from GW-backed companies, and nothing in the ST entry in the modern IG codex has stuck to the 10,000 number. All the entry says is:

"It is rare that the entirety of the Storm Trooper regiment will fight in one place. Instead individual companies areare sent to bolster the strength of the Imperial Guard."

It doesn't hnit onto how many companies the regiment has. It gives us no information on whether or not they reuse company names. FW and BL books gives us that filler information we don't have, and the 5e codex also backs up that the IG will reuse unit numbers (the 8th Cadian is listed as participating in M41, a unit that would no doubt of been wiped out at some point given Cadia's history and the Guards attrition style tactics.)

I am gonna go with Kahoolin in common sense over canoncity. Although I still think there is an argument to be made for the ST being far large then 10,000. And as Melissia pointed out, the regiment can simply be a formal organization.


Yes, well, to me it's believable for there to be tens if not hundreds of milions of Battle Sisters, but there's no canon to support it (just technically no canon that opposes such a stance, as it doesn't give an upward limit) In such a case I would go with what is believable towards you. Absence of fluff = room for imagination

[Faultie]

Faultie,

We can agree and both be right. Official Stormtroops may number 10,000. However Special operations troops, like the Karskin (who are only from one city in Cadia, and there are many many cities in Cadia) are numerous and all over the Imperium. These troops are equipped and trained in a similar as Storm Troops.
[...]
I do not have a problem with Billions of Storm trooper equivalents. After all, if every world just had 100 Storm troopers (highly unlikely considering the sizes of the military and the non stop combat of the 40k universe) we are still looking at a hundred million Storm trooper equivalents. If we went with 1% of the IG, Storm trooper equivalents would be in the billions.I completely agree. One of my original conclusions is that Storm Trooper equivalents (Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, Harakoni Warhawks, etc.) vastly outnumber IG Storm Troopers (by an order of magnitude at least). It's the only way that this makes any sense at all.

If we go by "common sense" or one's own personal beliefs, then it gets really ridiculous.

Not that Stormtrooper "equivalents" really exist, there might be ones whom claimt o [sic] be equivalent, but very few that actually are.They don't claim to be equivalents, the GW books/publications claim they are.
Yes, well, to me it's believable for there to be tens if not hundreds of milions of Battle Sisters, but there's no canon to support it (just technically no canon that opposes such a stance, as it doesn't give an upward limit)This actually makes plenty of sense to me.

[Kahoolin]

If we go by "common sense" or one's own personal beliefs, then it gets really ridiculous.Not necessarily. Think of it this way: We are engaged in what is essentially historical analysis of a fictional history. Historians (at least modern ones) don't take everything written in a history book as fact. There are bound to be errors, bias, deliberate obfuscation, confusion, anything.

Take the battle of Thermopylae for example. The main source we have for this (Herodotus) claims that the Persian army was 2.5 million strong. The largest that modern historians are prepared to believe it was based on world population at the time and the logistical capabilities of the ancient Persians is 200,000.

When you insist on canonicity over analysis you are treating the 40k universe as a fictional universe by giving the creator the final power to decide what is true within that fictional universe. Of course nothing in 40k ever happened, so if you look in it that way, whatever the creators have written is the truth.

That's not how we look at it though when we have fluff discussions. By getting involved in these discussions I (and others) assume that we are all pretending it did happen, and so in that spirit we can apply historical analysis just like we do in the real world. We are free to argue about the validity of our sources and how likely their claims are.

Claiming that there are only 10,000 stormies based on the 3E codex is OK, but it's sort of like claiming that there were 2.5 million Persians at Thermopylae because Herodotus said so and he is our earliest source.

[eldargal]

Excellent post, Kahoolin.

For all we know the Imperium could be deliberately downplaying the size of their armed forces to heighten the perception of a heroic few fighting against overwhelming odds. Even Space Marine numbers may be deflated.;)
"We few, we lucky few, we band of one hundred million, uh, (catches Inquisitors eye) one million battle brothers..."
I'm not saying this is the case, just adding an example.

[Melissia]

The Codex Astartes is a somewhat* binding set of limitations on a chapter, however... the Sisters and the Stormtroopers have no such limitations to our knowledge.


*I say somewhat because yes, I know some chapters don't care about it at all. But most do.

[Faultie]

Claiming that there are only 10,000 stormies based on the 3E codex is OK, but it's sort of like claiming that there were 2.5 million Persians at Thermopylae because Herodotus said so and he is our earliest source.There are only 50 Space Marines...no wait...50billion.
GW's sources are erroneous, exaggerated, and Ovid didn't know crap.

We few, we lucky few, we band of one hundred million, uh, (catches Inquisitors eye) one million battle brothers..."
Exactly! You all are using outdated, mistranslated copies of the Index Astartes.

This approach works, until a creator says "No, you're wrong. The Tau really are in the Eastern Fringe."
No matter how many times you say "You mean, 'According to the erroneous book' the Tau are believed to be in the Eastern Fringe", you're wrong. It's not your universe to change.
I love postmodernism as much as anyone else, and I'll questions whether my real name even is Faultie (it isn't), but it's not my story to change.

[Kahoolin]

Excellent post, Kahoolin.Thanks! Writing it gave me a bit of a brainwave actually, so I've expanded into another thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7065) you guys might be interested in...

[eldargal]

None of this is postmodern, actually. Historians have been practising this since Thucydides, two and a half thousand years ago. The concept can basically be summarised as "Don't trust any single source". Sure, the Codex Astartes says there can only be one thousand chapters of one thousand marines. But who wrote that? High ranking members of the Imperium. Are they an unbiased source? Hardly. We know that both the Space Wolves and Black Templars have more than one thousand marines, so right there you have evidence that there may be many more Marines out there than a million. We just don't hear about them because the Imperium has a vested interest in maintaining the heroic image of the Astartes.;)


There are only 50 Space Marines...no wait...50billion.
GW's sources are erroneous, exaggerated, and Ovid didn't know crap.

Exactly! You all are using outdated, mistranslated copies of the Index Astartes.

This approach works, until a creator says "No, you're wrong. The Tau really are in the Eastern Fringe."
No matter how many times you say "You mean, 'According to the erroneous book' the Tau are believed to be in the Eastern Fringe", you're wrong. It's not your universe to change.
I love postmodernism as much as anyone else, and I'll questions whether my real name even is Faultie (it isn't), but it's not my story to change.

[Melissia]

I get the impression that the vast majority of chapters do follow the codex astartes, however.

[Sitnam]

I get the impression that the vast majority of chapters do follow the codex astartes, however.

Which is more or less true. Chapters can vary with a few small organizational differences, preference in tactics, etc. But divergent chapters seem to be fairly rare. Even

[Lord_Crull]

Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition has this:


In recent years the number of Militant Orders has declined slightly and each order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters of which 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.

It goes on to say the numbers of each order fluctuate, but not by much. To put this quote in context the numbers here refer only to the Major Orders. The only mention for Minor Orders is that they ''number a hundred perhaps each''

[Necrosis]

That was 2nd edition.

When sisters get redone for 5 edition I think their numbers will be in the millions or billions.

[Lord_Crull]

That was 2nd edition.

When sisters get redone for 5 edition I think their numbers will be in the millions or billions.

However this is what we have currently, indeed we have no word on a Sisters Codex yet.

[Melissia]

No, what we have currently-- in C:WH-- is far more vague. It's one of the few things that tiny little codex retconned aside from the obnoxious convocation of nephilim.

[Lord_Crull]

No, what we have currently-- in C:WH-- is far more vague. It's one of the few things that tiny little codex retconned aside from the obnoxious convocation of nephilim.

Not really, the ''many thousands of warriors'' does not really contridict the earlier sizes in the 2nd edition Codex. After all in the 2nd edition Codex Orders have been mentioned as growing up to 6,000 warriors, which would qualify as the many thousands to an extent. However that is vague and I agree with you that having 30,000-40,000 Sisters to patrol the Pilgrim routes and launch the Wars of Faith is ridiculous. A larger number would make sense.

[Melissia]

It doesn't directly contradict it, but it doesn't need to. It gives us a much greater upper limit.

"Many thousands" doesn't have to mean three. Or six. It can mean sixteen. Or six hundred. Or six thousand.

[Lord_Crull]

It doesn't directly contradict it, but it doesn't need to. It gives us a much greater upper limit.

"Many thousands" doesn't have to mean three. Or six. It can mean sixteen. Or six hundred. Or six thousand.

Yes, I know, I'm agreeing with you.

[Nabterayl]

Heh, I'll disagree then. If the less reliable source says 3,000-4,000, and the more reliable source says "Many thousands," you don't really have a warrant for varying much from the 3-4K number. If Aeschylus says there were "many thousands" of Persians at Marathon and Herodotus says there were 3,000-4,000, you acknowledge that the 3-4K number is less reliable than you'd like but probably in the right ballpark, right? You don't say, "Well, our best source only says 'many thousands,' so we have an upper limit of 999,999."

Sisters Militant numbering in the millions I don't think is implausible, but everything seems to point towards individual orders being less than an order of magnitude larger than a marine chapter.

[Melissia]

No, because 3-4 isn't "many". It's just a few.

[Kahoolin]

Then what would people intuitively feel "many thousands" means? I'd say it's at least 5 but less than 10. Because once you get to 10 you'd start saying "number in the tens of thousands."

[Nabterayl]

Then what would people intuitively feel "many thousands" means? I'd say it's at least 5 but less than 10. Because once you get to 10 you'd start saying "number in the tens of thousands."
In the absence of other information, I'd agree with you. My understanding is that three is several, and more than three can properly be characterized as "many."

[Melissia]

But then, in order to be properly pedantic, I would note that "many" can indicate quite a large variety of numbers. It is indicative of a collecitve indefinite large number. Inspecific, but without a true roof. hundreds are "many", as are thousands.

When overwhelmed by a one thousand strong Tyranid horde, "There are too many of them" isn't unexpected.

[Nabterayl]

That's true, but I agree with Kahoolin's intuition that if they meant tens or hundreds of thousands they would have said that, rather than many "thousands." True, 999,999 is "many thousands," but my intuition is that if they had meant over 10,000 they would have used different diction.

[Melissia]

My intuition states that they were beint intentionally inexact in order to not limit themselves in such a fashion. The six major orders having merely 18,000-24,000 Sisters makes about as much sense as the Guard only having a few million.

[Nabterayl]

Oh, I agree that they were being intentionally inexact. But that doesn't mean the sources don't say anything. It just decreases our level of certainty.

And ... why does the six major orders having merely 18,000-24,000 sisters make so little sense?

[Melissia]

Because of the sheer massiveness of the Imperium.

[Nabterayl]

Meaning ... what? That if the major orders only numbered roughly 100,000 among the six of them that the Ecclesiarchy couldn't use Sisters Militant to spearhead its Wars of Faith? Or that representatives of the six major orders could not possibly be present in all the warzones we have record of them being present?

[Melissia]

No, that's not 100,000. 3-4 thousand for each of hte major orders is merely 12-18 thousand Sisters. In order to approach 100,000, you'd need 82 minor orders each having 1000 members. In order to approach one million, you'd need 982 minor orders with 1000 members each. In order to approach something TRULY meaningful in 40k's massive scale, this would need to be multiplied by at least ten, if not one hundred. Frankly, C:WH seems to lead me to believe that the numbers within minor orders are closer to mere dozens of sisters up to a few hundred, but then I might be reading too much into it, making things even bleaker.

So effectively, with a MERE ~15k Sisters, they could deploy representatives yes, but little else. Unless you really want us to believe that 1000 Sisters is a stronger force than most Imperial Guard battleforces and can take over planets by themselves with minimal casualties in a way that makes the Guard look pathetic-- something which you have argued against previously if my memory is correct-- then it's simply a pathetic and paltry military presence in the galaxy. Even IF this is increased to ten thousand each, that's MERELY 60,000 Sisters, over an entire galaxy. More Guardsmen die in the average battle of even some notability than that. There's something along the lines of 16.67 times as many Marines in the galaxy as that. It's a PATHETIC number.

And so I choose to interpret it far upwards of that. There are hundreds of thousands of Schola Progenium Institutions across the Imperium, and yet apparently there's fewer than one Battle Sister per schola? I do not buy that for an instant. An entire squad of novitiates-- more of them than commissar-cadets-- were being trained in Cain's Last Stand. And Cain has indicated that in his own Schola, there were more than enough Battle Sister Novitiates to create a scrumball team (which was noted as a particularly devastating and brutal team at that). And that this was considered normal for a Schola.

[Nabterayl]

When you said the six major orders having 18,000-24,000, I thought you meant per order. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the major orders upgraded to something like that size next time (if ever) we get data on the subject, but I still have a hard time seeing them as huge organizations.

You seem to have a vision in your head of large numbers of Sororitas spearheading wars of faith, Guard assaults, and that sort of thing, but I don't think we have any data that suggests the Orders Militant operate on that kind of scale. It seems to me that all of our data, circumstantial though it may be, points to Sororitas as operating essentially on a space marine scale. When do we ever have records of more than a thousand or so Sisters Militant from a single order in a single place? Hive Tempestora is the only one I can think of, and all we can safely conjecture about that deployment is that there were more than a thousand sisters present.

For that matter, what fluff do we have that would require more than a thousand or so sisters from a single order to be deployed on a regular basis? If we assume that a sister militant is more like a guardsman than a space marine, we might expect large-scale deployments, but surely a sister militant is actually more like a space marine than like a guardsman in terms of her combat power? If that be the case, wouldn't we expect to see relatively small deployments? There might need to be many millions of sisters militant galaxy-wide, but no single order would need to be able to put more than a few hundred women in the field to satisfy most operational requirements.

[Sitnam]

No, that's not 100,000. 3-4 thousand for each of hte major orders is merely 12-18 thousand Sisters. In order to approach 100,000, you'd need 82 minor orders each having 1000 members. In order to approach one million, you'd need 982 minor orders with 1000 members each. In order to approach something TRULY meaningful in 40k's massive scale, this would need to be multiplied by at least ten, if not one hundred. Frankly, C:WH seems to lead me to believe that the numbers within minor orders are closer to mere dozens of sisters up to a few hundred, but then I might be reading too much into it, making things even bleaker.

So effectively, with a MERE ~15k Sisters, they could deploy representatives yes, but little else. Unless you really want us to believe that 1000 Sisters is a stronger force than most Imperial Guard battleforces and can take over planets by themselves with minimal casualties in a way that makes the Guard look pathetic-- something which you have argued against previously if my memory is correct-- then it's simply a pathetic and paltry military presence in the galaxy. Even IF this is increased to ten thousand each, that's MERELY 60,000 Sisters, over an entire galaxy. More Guardsmen die in the average battle of even some notability than that. There's something along the lines of 16.67 times as many Marines in the galaxy as that. It's a PATHETIC number.

And so I choose to interpret it far upwards of that. There are hundreds of thousands of Schola Progenium Institutions across the Imperium, and yet apparently there's fewer than one Battle Sister per schola? I do not buy that for an instant. An entire squad of novitiates-- more of them than commissar-cadets-- were being trained in Cain's Last Stand. And Cain has indicated that in his own Schola, there were more than enough Battle Sister Novitiates to create a scrumball team (which was noted as a particularly devastating and brutal team at that). And that this was considered normal for a Schola.
I agree here. It simply doesnt make sense to have such minuscle numbers of Sisters, same as I mentioned for schola stormtroopers. This is a universe where the over 1 million space marines are rare. And the Eccleciasty is such a alrge and powerful organization I see no way that they can have such a tiny number of soritas. If memory serves me right, Sisters also serve as bodyguards for the priesthood. Given 40k's vastness who knwos how many priests there are to guard. Hell, who knows how many shrine worlds there are. In a semi-theocratic empire such as the Imperium, of over 1,000,000 worlds, who's to say how many shrine worlds there are.

[Nabterayl]

I agree here. It simply doesnt make sense to have such minuscle numbers of Sisters, same as I mentioned for schola stormtroopers. This is a universe where the over 1 million space marines are rare. And the Eccleciasty is such a alrge and powerful organization I see no way that they can have such a tiny number of soritas. If memory serves me right, Sisters also serve as bodyguards for the priesthood. Given 40k's vastness who knwos how many priests there are to guard. Hell, who knows how many shrine worlds there are. In a semi-theocratic empire such as the Imperium, of over 1,000,000 worlds, who's to say how many shrine worlds there are.
The Ecclesiarchy is large and powerful in a social, religious, economic, and political sense. It is not large and powerful in a military sense. Despite how good the Sororitas are, when it comes to "militarily large and powerful" in the Imperium, there are only two games in town - the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.

I agree with you guys that there must be a relatively large number of sisters militant in the Imperium as a whole. The fact that the Sororitas provide security for each world's cathedral center is another piece of evidence towards that conclusion, as Sitnam rightly points out. But it doesn't follow from the deduction that there must be a relatively large number of sisters in the Imperium as a whole that any individual order must be very large. Is it really so strange to imagine that there are six major orders and well over a thousand minor orders? This is coming from the same pens that have focused on the seven or so "major" space marine chapters out of the thousand or so chapters supposedly in existence, after all.

Also, we needn't necessarily imagine hundreds of Sororitas securing every cathedral center in the Imperium. Remember that space marines will dispatch a single company to counter major threats, such as a tyranid splinter fleet, or an ork Waaagh! Analogizing backwards to the slightly less capable sisters militant, it wouldn't surprise me if some worlds' cathedral centers were secured by as little as a single squad of battle sisters.

[Kahoolin]

Also, we needn't necessarily imagine hundreds of Sororitas securing every cathedral center in the Imperium. Remember that space marines will dispatch a single company to counter major threats, such as a tyranid splinter fleet, or an ork Waaagh! Analogizing backwards to the slightly less capable sisters militant, it wouldn't surprise me if some worlds' cathedral centers were secured by as little as a single squad of battle sisters.That makes sense to me. Sisters are pretty kick-arse and really, defending a cathedral under normal circumstances is not going to mean repelling an army. It's going to mean scaring the bejesus out of passing civilians with your awesome power armour.

I like to think (and there is no real justification for this at all, it's just me imagining what seems cool to me) that there are thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of tiny orders minoris. Maybe every shrine world has 200 sisters provided by the closest Schola and inducted into an order dedicated to protecting the local saint's fingerbone. Maybe the Orders Majoris are the only ones that are routinely used to prosecute wars of faith, and the minor orders just join in if it's in their neck of the woods?

[Sitnam]

The Ecclesiarchy is large and powerful in a social, religious, economic, and political sense. It is not large and powerful in a military sense. Despite how good the Sororitas are, when it comes to "militarily large and powerful" in the Imperium, there are only two games in town - the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.
Good point. However given the factionalism of the Imperium, I think it is still safe to say that a organization such as the Ecclesiarchy would have a modicum of fighting power. Ofcourse not that of the IG and IN, but enough to help initiate Wars of Faith and other such tasks.


This is coming from the same pens that have focused on the seven or so "major" space marine chapters out of the thousand or so chapters supposedly in existence, after all.

I actually think thats a valid point. The way GW shows things nowadays, I think many newer fans wouldnt know who exactly made up the 20 legions. Honestly, of the Loyalists only the Space Wolves, Dark Angels Ultramarines, and Blood Angels are the most significant due to the fact that they have their own books. The other Legions only get a special character that just gives one army changing rule; and the Iron hands are barely mentioned as being an original Legion.


But it doesn't follow from the deduction that there must be a relatively large number of sisters in the Imperium as a whole that any individual order must be very large. Is it really so strange to imagine that there are six major orders and well over a thousand minor orders?
If this is true, then it could mean the major orders range into the thousands, whilst the minor orders could be in the few hundreds to maybe a thousand. Given the vastness of the Imperium, 1000 'minor' orders is really a small number. Unfortunately, we have little information on the minor orders.


For that matter, what fluff do we have that would require more than a thousand or so sisters from a single order to be deployed on a regular basis? If we assume that a sister militant is more like a guardsman than a space marine, we might expect large-scale deployments, but surely a sister militant is actually more like a space marine than like a guardsman in terms of her combat power? If that be the case, wouldn't we expect to see relatively small deployments? There might need to be many millions of sisters militant galaxy-wide, but no single order would need to be able to put more than a few hundred women in the field to satisfy most operational requirements Whilst they may have bolters and power armor, Sisters arent the same as Marines. And despite normal human genetics, they arent Guardsmen. I see them as a middle ground between the two. They can very easily spearhead a War of Faith. They would simply be the speartip that leads in, with Frateris Militia and IG acting as the shaft that makes up the weight of the army. SM however cannot act in such a role as easily. This is due to the fact that many SM do not get along well with IG high command/inquisition/etc. The arrogance of some chapters is another problem. In addition, chapters are very independent organizations. The highest ranked Soritas still has a high command above her.


That makes sense to me. Sisters are pretty kick-arse and really, defending a cathedral under normal circumstances is not going to mean repelling an army. It's going to mean scaring the bejesus out of passing civilians with your awesome power armour.

I like to think (and there is no real justification for this at all, it's just me imagining what seems cool to me) that there are thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of tiny orders minoris. Maybe every shrine world has 200 sisters provided by the closest Schola and inducted into an order dedicated to protecting the local saint's fingerbone. Maybe the Orders Majoris are the only ones that are routinely used to prosecute wars of faith, and the minor orders just join in if it's in their neck of the woods? I like this idea. I did read off Lexicanum that the "Order of the Eternal Gate" is a order minoris whose sole task is artefact retrieval. Maybe that is the type of stuff minoris are involved in. Finding artefacts, protecting small shrine worlds, giving the Eccleciarchy a small but scary presence in a area.

Also, if one looks at the weapons of the Soritas, they are very suitable for urban warfare. The Repressor transprot was actually taken from the Arbites. Perhaps the Soritas serve as back up to arbites in cities where a dangerous heresy is going on. In such a enviroment a flamethrowing riot tank carrying a squad highly trained, power armored, bolter firing fanatics can carve throguh a heresy on a hive planet. So a small order of 200 dedicated to rooting out heresy , with information gleaned from Arbites and Hereticus reports, could root out heresy across a large number of planets before it even begins. Evidence of Genestealer cult on Planet A? 2 Repressor squads, a sprinkle of flamers and an evicerator or two.. Uh-oh, Khornate Death Cult on Planet B sacked a PDF base? 2 Repressors, a excorcist, maybe some seraphim please.

[Nabterayl]

The whole war of faith thing is pretty fuzzy. Details are quite scarce, but I can well imagine that most of the time a sisters-vs.-cultists matchup would be limited by the sisters' ammunition more than anything else. Untrained irregulars against elite troops tend to ... not do very well in a stand-up fight :D So it could well be that even minor orders would suffice for at least some wars of faith.

According to the codex, when it comes to wars of faith, the sisters are "joined by ... bands of civilians, lay-people or seconded planetary defense forces" and "lead the way." That could mean an awful lot of things ... as little as a few hundred sisters at the head of many regiments of PDF and many more mobs of zealots, or as much as many thousands of sisters with a few stragglers of PDFs and zealots. And then too, the demands of a "war of faith" are pretty fuzzy. The war of faith against the Tyrant of Denescura was accomplished by St. Aspira and a thousand sisters of the Bloody Rose, but we don't know anything about the nature of the opposition. We're told that the Sacred Rose "broke the back" of the cultists' defense during the Second Halo Schism war of faith, but we don't know how many cultists we're talking about or what forces supported the sisters of the Sacred Rose. And then we have two more examples on page 7 of the codex, both pogroms against seemingly defenseless mutants. This is hardly conclusive, but in four out of four examples it seems like the Ecclesiarchical forces radically outclassed their opposition. So I'd tentatively say that most of the time not many sisters are needed for a war of faith simply because the opposition tends to be so low-quality.

[Melissia]

You mean just ilke most of the time no more than a single IG regiment is needed to break a rebellion's back?

And it really is, let's be honest-- a 2k deployment of Guard is roughly a small company, and regiments can have dozens of those.

We're not talking about most of the time necessarily. The average battle in 40k is skirmish-sized regardless; marauding Ork warbands, Dark Eldar raiding parties, a citizen riot being put down, and so on. That doesn't mean that the Guard or Sisters or Astartes can't also deal with huge battles. They just do it in different ways.

As for ammunition, keep in mind that ammunition in 40k follows plot more than logic.

[Sitnam]

As for ammunition, keep in mind that ammunition in 40k follows plot more than logic.

Well, thank god for us sensible, analytical fans to correctly summarize the fighting strengths of the Imperium. Although in GW's defence, the IA books do seem to have more thought put into them then BL stuff.

[Nabterayl]

You mean just ilke most of the time no more than a single IG regiment is needed to break a rebellion's back?

And it really is, let's be honest-- a 2k deployment of Guard is roughly a small company, and regiments can have dozens of those.

We're not talking about most of the time necessarily. The average battle in 40k is skirmish-sized regardless; marauding Ork warbands, Dark Eldar raiding parties, a citizen riot being put down, and so on. That doesn't mean that the Guard or Sisters or Astartes can't also deal with huge battles. They just do it in different ways.

As for ammunition, keep in mind that ammunition in 40k follows plot more than logic.

You know, so far all the fiction I've read (and I admit I've deliberately stayed away from the stuff that people have warned me was bad) has had a pretty realistic assessment of everybody's respective fighting strengths. In the Ultramarines trilogy, Faith and Fire, the Ghosts series through The Armour of Contempt, and IA1-7, Astartes, Guard, and Sororitas have behaved pretty much exactly as we've conjectured they ought to. Yes, people occasionally have odd ammunition issues, and protagonists do heroic things, but the organizations are presented as having the capabilities and limitations that we know they should. What exactly are you thinking of?

[Sitnam]

I dont wanna speak for Melissia, but I have a strong feeling something along the CS Goto is what she is talking about when she mentions marinewank. The Blood Angels books I feel also have the same problem.

[eldargal]

Like having Eldar vehicles destroyed by kids who stuff rocks in the gun barrels. Goto is terrible, let us never mention him again.

Check out some of the battles in the German Peasant's Revolt if you want a classic example of elite vs rabble. If the elite aren't interested in such novel ideas as minimising civilian casualties things go very poorly for the people who aren't elite. Gotz of the Iron Hand* and a couple of hundred knights killing 8000 peasants in two hours is a good example.

GW understates numbers dramatically in the fluff, to a completely incredible level. I can cope with approximately one million super human marines, but only tens of thousands of Sororitas for the militant wing of the largest institution in the galaxy? Just absurd. Its that whole 'true of fluff' thing again.

*In addition to the fantastic name, he also coined the phrase 'kiss my arse' albeit in Early New High German.


I dont wanna speak for Melissia, but I have a strong feeling something along the CS Goto is what she is talking about when she mentions marinewank. The Blood Angels books I feel also have the same problem.

[Nabterayl]

Heh, and if there's one thing Sororitas with their blood up are not, it's concerned about civilian casualties :p I don't mean to minimize the threat of heretical cultists, mind - most of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade was conducted against nothing more threatening than Chaos cultists, and that took billions of Imperial soldiers of all stripes to bring to a successful conclusion - but even if they are a big-picture threat, a relatively small number of Sororitas should be able to do for a relatively large number of cultists, at least if the cultists are willing to stand and fight.

Re: Goto and his ilk, that all seems kind of beside the point. If our bad sources say something unexpected and our good sources all say what we'd expect them to, then surely we have the basic picture down correctly? It'd be one thing if people like Abnett and Warwick had individual regiments conquering entire planets and single marines gunning down five hundred orks, but they don't.

And where are people getting this ten thousand Sororitas thing? Who's arguing for that? Not me, certainly.

[Lord_Crull]

It'd be one thing if people like Abnett and Warwick had individual regiments conquering entire planets and single marines gunning down five hundred orks, but they don't.


Abnett did that a couple times in Brothers of the Snake actually. 10 Space Marines kill off two thousand Dark Eldar. It's not an exaggeration when a Librarian comments on it and the marines are described in the pages of the book as slaughtering dark eldar into piles ''twenty deep''

Of course the story had dark eldar holding as fortress for some reason and having a couple of other things that stand out as unfluffy for them, but usually Abnett does better than that.

[Melissia]

Heh, and if there's one thing Sororitas with their blood up are not, it's concerned about civilian casualties

Part of the mission of the Sororitas is to protect His faithful and guard His Imperium. I would go so far to say that Sisters care far more for the common citizen than Marines do, at the very least.

[Lord_Crull]

Part of the mission of the Sororitas is to protect His faithful and guard His Imperium. I would go so far to say that Sisters care far more for the common citizen than Marines do, at the very least.

Actually I would say it depends on the Order and Chapter.

The Canoness in Redemption Corps showed absolutely no regard whatsoever for human life, even if it was on her side. Sister Miriya was more compassionete in Faith and Fire but sill saw little compunction about torturing a ship captain.

Meanwhile the Salamanders are known for their compassion and concern for civllians. A group of Salamanders even drops into battle in Helsreach solely to rescue trapped civllians. Meanwhile the Marines Malevolent are essentially complete jerkasses.

[Melissia]

And Canoness Praxedes took all the sisters on Ophelia VII and stopped a Tyranid Hive Fleet's invasion, so that the others on the shrine world could evacuate, both the civilians and Imperial Guardsmen-- sacrificing themselves in order to ensure that the faithful were saved. GW's depictions of Sisters has often been unfair and unkind, but that doesn't change their mission.

[Necrosis]

Actually I would say it depends on the Order and Chapter.

The Canoness in Redemption Corps showed absolutely no regard whatsoever for human life, even if it was on her side. Sister Miriya was more compassionete in Faith and Fire but sill saw little compunction about torturing a ship captain.

Meanwhile the Salamanders are known for their compassion and concern for civllians. A group of Salamanders even drops into battle in Helsreach solely to rescue trapped civllians. Meanwhile the Marines Malevolent are essentially complete jerkasses.

After reading a few pages of Redemption Corps, I had to put that book down. I'm not going to consider that book fluffy what so ever. Everything in Faith and Fire contradicts this. This is why I never talk black library books as cannon.

[Nabterayl]

Part of the mission of the Sororitas is to protect His faithful and guard His Imperium. I would go so far to say that Sisters care far more for the common citizen than Marines do, at the very least.
Most marines, anyway. Ultramarines make it a point of pride not to cause collateral damage; Captain Ventris has even twice defied Inquisitorial orders for Exterminatus.

I was being kind of tongue in cheek - I agree that Sororitas are charged with protecting the innocent bystanders of the Imperium, and in general take that duty very seriously. But at least by modern standards they're still pretty callous. A Sororitas convent can level a city because its government has gone bad and the citizens have failed to overthrow it ... to the Sororitas mindset, that's proof that the citizenry too has turned its backs on the Emperor, but I can just imagine the howling that would occur if U.S. or UK troops behaved in a similar manner :p

[Melissia]

Yes, but that's because Ultramarines are Mary Sue characters, and you can't very well have them acting mean can we?

[Nabterayl]

Sure, but so what? It's not unreliable canon just because Ultramarines are pricks instead of pricks with a callous disregard for human life.

[Lord_Crull]

And Canoness Praxedes took all the sisters on Ophelia VII and stopped a Tyranid Hive Fleet's invasion, so that the others on the shrine world could evacuate, both the civilians and Imperial Guardsmen-- sacrificing themselves in order to ensure that the faithful were saved. GW's depictions of Sisters has often been unfair and unkind, but that doesn't change their mission.

I never said it did. However not every Sister has the same regard for human life or the same doctrines. Space Marines with the exception of the Black Templars are charged with the defense of the Emperor's realm and people. I can pull out plenty of examples of Space Marines going out of their way to protect civliians. (Salamanders) as well of examples of them not doing so. Same with Sisters.

[Melissia]

Sure, but so what? It's not unreliable canon just because Ultramarines are pricks instead of pricks with a callous disregard for human life.It's not so much that, as much as it is me choosing to ignore it because it's boring and I don't care.

[Lord_Crull]

Most marines, anyway. Ultramarines make it a point of pride not to cause collateral damage; Captain Ventris has even twice defied Inquisitorial orders for Exterminatus.


Actually I would argue most marines follow the Ultramarines example. The Imperial Fists for example returned Guardsman Hawke to Joura despite the long journey. The Black Templars honored the bravery of the Steel Legion in Helsreach and theWhite consuls showed care for the average civllian. Even the Mortifactors fought to protect civillians at Tarsis Ultra.

It's really only the chapters like the Iron Hands and Marines Malevolent that act like that.

[Kahoolin]

It's really only the chapters like the Iron Hands and Marines Malevolent that act like that.The Iron Hands are jerks? I didn't know that.

[Nabterayl]

They're all jerks :p It's just a question of how that manifests.

[Lord_Crull]

The Iron Hands are jerks? I didn't know that.

There was a short story of them gunning down a bunch of Guardsmen in Index Astartes

[Valkerie]

I think a large part of the problem is that we humans have a difficult time dealing with really large numbers. The concept of armies with troop numbers in the trillions sort of overloads our brains. We just can't really comprehend numbers that large, so people have a tendency to go for lower numbers. And, as other posters have pointed out, that makes for unrealistically small forces given the size and complexity of the Imperium.

On a fluff level, the actual size of the Imperium's military is a) so large nobody really knows,[in several rulebooks and codices it explicitly says that the IG is so large no one can keep track of its size] and b) probably a state secret. As a state secret, it would be treason to reveal it. And, given how the Imperium deals with relatively minor disagreements, traitors could probably expect to face a rather rough time answering the Inquisition's questions.

[Baron Spikey]

Why are people so set on believing there's only 1 Storm Trooper regiment? I know the Codex says that it's rare that the entirety of the Storm Trooper regiment will fight in one place and that companies will be sent to bolster other Imperial Guard units present, but it's so much more logical to interpret that as meaning that a Storm Trooper regiment won't be deployed a single force (similar to how it's rare for an Astartes Chapter to fight as a whole, instead they send out Company level forces to differing areas of a theatre).

Considering the size of the Imperium are you really trying to to tell me that when Imperial Storm Troopers are present at, say, the Eye of Terror there's none on the Eastern Fringe? Seriously?
If there was only a single regiment then the wording of the Codex wouldn't state it was a rare event for the entire regiment to gather in one place, it would be an event that never took place- the regiment would be dispersed all over the Imperium and considering the vastness of the Galaxy by the time the regiment was able to assemble, any war that was deemed as needing the regiment of ST would have finished decades or even centuries ago.

Now I don't know how many Storm Troopers there are, and I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess, but there certainly more than a single regiment's worth.

[Nabterayl]

Now I don't know how many Storm Troopers there are, and I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess, but there certainly more than a single regiment's worth.
Well, yes and no. There's almost certainly more than a normal regiment's worth of storm troopers, for reasons of scale. But that's not to say that there couldn't be a single storm trooper "regiment" which is simply enormous. We can imagine a storm trooper regiment that consists of over 2,000 companies of storm troopers, for instance - that fits pretty much all of our data.

[Melissia]

How large is the average IG company? As that still might not be very much.

[gwensdad]

How large is the average IG company? As that still might not be very much.

I'll make the mistake of going to wikipedia and looking up modern companies...

In a modern force, a company is 3 platoons. Let's assume* that the IG is the same and any company with more has absorbed platoons from other companies. We'll also assume* all platoons are at full (codex) strength with 5 squads, command section, special squads, & heavy squads. I won't count commissars.

platoon command 5
squads 10X5
HW Squads 6x5
SQ Squads 6x2
=97 troops per platoon

So, assuming* 3 platoons per company, we get 291 troops + a company command (5+2 bodyguards) or about 300** not including vehicle crews (if mech).
Which now brings the question, how many companies per regiment? I can't find anything in wikipedia* so I used various other sources* that show US Civil War regiments as being 10 companies but modern US regiments being 12 companies, so ~3000-3600 combat troops (not administrative types) per regiment.
That sounds small for what GW calls a regiment so if anyone has an idea about how many companies are in a 40K regiment then sound off. But a quick (humorous) guess shows that if the US military adds 2 companies to each platoon every century then by the Horus Heresy a Guard loosely based on the US military should have 56000 companies/regiment (~168,000,000 combat troops, which starts to sound about right for a hive world)

As always, your reality may vary I could be slightly wrong*.


*trying not to make an *** of u or me.
**THIS IS CADIA!

[Legoklods]

I'll make the mistake of going to wikipedia and looking up modern companies...

In a modern force, a company is 3 platoons. Let's assume* that the IG is the same and any company with more has absorbed platoons from other companies. We'll also assume* all platoons are at full (codex) strength with 5 squads, command section, special squads, & heavy squads. I won't count commissars.

platoon command 5
squads 10X5
HW Squads 6x5
SQ Squads 6x2
=97 troops per platoon

So, assuming* 3 platoons per company, we get 291 troops + a company command (5+2 bodyguards) or about 300** not including vehicle crews (if mech).
Which now brings the question, how many companies per regiment? I can't find anything in wikipedia* so I used various other sources* that show US Civil War regiments as being 10 companies but modern US regiments being 12 companies, so ~3000-3600 combat troops (not administrative types) per regiment.
That sounds small for what GW calls a regiment so if anyone has an idea about how many companies are in a 40K regiment then sound off. But a quick (humorous) guess shows that if the US military adds 2 companies to each platoon every century then by the Horus Heresy a Guard loosely based on the US military should have 56000 companies/regiment (~168,000,000 combat troops, which starts to sound about right for a hive world)

As always, your reality may vary I could be slightly wrong*.


*trying not to make an *** of u or me.
**THIS IS CADIA!


Comparing the US army with the IG is just... stupid!
Think about what a mans life is worth in the US army. when someone dies it will be in the papers. Do you think the "Cadia Times" write about every guardsman who dies?
Think more like China.
The womens regiment numbers +500.000 armed soldiers!
and still, thats nothing compared to the way I understand the guard!*



*This is madness!

[Melissia]

Cain's regiment during most of his stories is roughly six platoons per company. And this is an armored fist regiment.

[Baron Spikey]

In 30k a regiment consisted of around 3,000 troops as that was the average number that could comfortably be transported on a Warship, which was under the individual the command Imperial Army regimental leader.

Of course 10,000 years later the numbers vary from regiment to regiment but as you can see once upon a time the Imperial Army was divided into similar numbers as gwensdad suggests are present in the US army.

And Legoklods don't say it's stupid to compare a modern nation's army to a 40k one when you turn around and do the exact same thing but with a different nation.

[Melissia]

No no no, they're saying don't compare the USA in specific. The USA's army would be closer to a full Veteran force supported by tanks, airstarikes, and artillery.

[Old_Paladin]

How large is the average IG company? As that still might not be very much.

The biggest problem with trying to determine numbers within the Imperial Armed Forces, is that each planet/system/culture is allowed to follow its own preferences/naming systems.

Let's look at the problem on the scale of a regiment: different rules/styles means different sizes. For example, many worlds found a regiment with huge starting number, but they never receive new troops. They rank combat skill as a percent of loses; the more lost, the more vetern the regiment (as survivours are combat hardened).
Other forces (like the Vostroyan's), continue to re-supply with new members so the same regiments maintain similar manpower as a founding regiment.

Even look at Gaunt's Ghosts.
At founding, they were the Tanith 1st & 2nd light infantry and Tanith 3rd armoured. After the death of their homeworld, they became the Tanith First and Only (even though they would have been larger then a normal regiment).

To further muddy the waters; what type of company?
Infantry? Mechanized? Armoured? Airborne/Air Cav.?
I bet that the Cadia 8th, Company A, is going to be different in size compared to the Krieg 177th, 3rd Company. Let alone comparing an Phantine Drop Company to an Urdeshi Armoured Company.

[Melissia]

Yes, but that's why we have general labels.

It goes like this:
Soldier / Tank / Artillery piece / Valkyrie / Sentinel
Squad/Squadron (made up of a number of of the above)
Company (made up of a number of squads/squadrons)
Regiment (made up of a number of companies)
Batallion (made up of a number of regiments)

And so on and so forth.

But for our purposes I'm thinking a Cadian Infantry Company, because that's the most generic company in the fluff IIRC.

[Gotthammer]

According to the old Space Marine expansion Armies of the Imperium each Regiment includes 10-40 companies, with companies being 160 men strong. This is based on Epic scale miniatures and the game system using them so is fairly rigid.

The Compenium mentions Regiments are raised with a strength of 2,000 - 6,000 men. It further states that companies can vary widely in their size and composition.

The Pacification of Flotis III has a breakdown of D Company of the 7th Mordian regiment:

Commander + Commisar
(2)

-First Platoon

Captain + Command section
(8, including advisors)

4 Squads
(40)


-Second Platoon

Captain + Command section
(7, including advisors)

3 Squads
(30)


- Third Platoon
5 Ogryns
(5)


- Fourth Platoon

Lieutenant + Command Section
(6)

2 Beastman Squads
(20)


- Fifth Platoon (Rough Riders)

Captain + Command Section
(6)

3 Squads
(30)

- Sixth Platoon

10 Penal Legionaires
(10)

- Seventh Platoon

5 Ratlings
(5)


Which works out at around 169 bodies.

[Old_Paladin]

Thats a great find Gotthammer.
I'd probably drop the beastman platoon and replace it with a whiteshields platoon (of maybe 20-30), fluffwise.

So 170-180 looks quite reasonable for an infantry company with minor support elements.

[Melissia]

Sounds like a light company to me.

The Valhallan regiment Cain was attached to had companies which had-- IIRC-- five or six platoons, each with five full squads and a command squad. And that was a MECHANIZED regiment.

[Old_Paladin]

The Valhallan regiment Cain was attached to had companies which had-- IIRC-- five or six platoons, each with five full squads and a command squad. And that was a MECHANIZED regiment.

That sounds like a pretty heavy company to me. I mean, that 6 medium IFV's each with a close support fire team, plus 5 additional fire teams, per platoon.


I don't disagree that companies could (and do) have 300+ bodies, but just under two hundred seems like a pretty good average for standard infantry.

[Melissia]

It's a heavy mechanized company, but I'd expect a bog standard infantry company to be at least as large in bodies, if not larger.

Something like 5-6 infantry platoons with five squads each, with 1-2 heavy weapons squads as support in each platoon.

150-ish bodies is a tiny, TINY company.

[AirHorse]

Dont the ghosts have about 14 platoons for their regiment? And that was roughly equivalent to about 2000men. Ive only read the first set of books, but they are constantly made out to be a small regiment, though I dont know how much of that is to do with them being small from conception or if thats all to do with the fact that they have no home world any longer and so cant refill the ranks in the traditional manner.

[Nabterayl]

IA is pretty useful for this sort of thing. Here's a light infantry company of the 17th Tallarn Desert Raiders, which is a very large regiment (in fact, it's commanded by a general):

HQ section, consisting of one command squad, a scout Sentinel squadron, and an artillery spotter
A heavy weapons platoon, consisting of a command squad, six mortar teams, six lascannon/missile launcher teams, and six heavy bolter/autocannon teams
Five infantry platoons, each consisting of a command squad and five squads of ten guardsmen each
Total 331 men, not counting commissariat and Ecclesiarchical personnel

A mechanized infantry company of the 12th Tallarn Armoured consists of:

One command squad consisting of ten men, with a Chimera and a Salamander at their disposal (remember that the Salamander is the IG equivalent of a Jeep or HMMWV)
Four mechanized infantry platoons, each consisting of a command squad in a Chimera, five ten-man infantry squads in Chimeras, and one heavy weapons squad in a Chimera
Total 315 men, not counting Chimera crews, commissariat, or Ecclesiarchical personnel

An airborne company of the 23rd Elysian Drop Troops consists of:

A company command squad in a Valkyrie
An attack squadron of three Vultures
A heavy weapons platoon consisting of a command squad, an anti-tank squad, a mortar squad, and two fire support squads (each of 6 men each), transported in five Valkyries
Four platoons of drop infantry, each consisting of a command squad and four ten-man squads of guardsmen, transported in five Valkyries
Total 214 men, not counting Navy, commissariat, or Ecclesiarchical personnel

A mechanized infantry company of the 114th Cadian Mechanized consists of:

One command squad consisting of ten men, with a Chimera and a Salamander at their disposal
Four mechanized infantry platoons, each consisting of a command squad in a Chimera, five ten-man infantry squads in Chimeras, and one heavy weapons squad in a Chimera
Total 315 men, not counting Chimera crews, commissariat, or Ecclesiarchical personnel

An infantry company of a Death Korps of Krieg siege regiment consists of:

A company command squad with a Centaur at its disposal
Two ten-man grenadier squads, each with a Centaur at its disposal
Ten infantry platoons, each consisting of a command squad and six ten-man guardsman squads
A heavy weapons platoon, consisting of a command squad and two anti-tank squads, three mortar squads, and four fire support squads
Total 728 men, not counting commissariat or Ecclesiarchical personnel

Based on these numbers, ~300 for a foot or mechanized company doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me. Five squads per platoon seems a little on the heavy side for a mechanized company, but not that heavy, and not heavy at all for a foot company. Mel's right that by IG standards, 150 bodies is a very small company.

And yeah, the Ghosts are tiny, but then, Tanith raised tiny regiments in the first place - who's ever heard of a foot regiment in the Imperial Guard that only numbers 2,000, which is what the 1st and 2nd were supposed to be (and what the 1st and only ends up being)? Also, kind of the whole narrative point of the Ghosts is that they're a tiny regiment.

[Valkerie]

A major problem with there only being one regiment of stormtroopers of 10,000 troops, is that there are over a million Marines. Given that it takes 4 to 10 years just to get the implants in recruits, I believe it is probably much easier to create stormtroopers than Marines. Thus, I find it hard to believe that there would only be one stormtrooper for every one hundred Marines. I think it is much more likely that there are several stormtrooper regiments numbering ten million or more. This makes much more sense than a mere ten thousand stormtroopers spread across the galaxy.

[taffy501]

tbh what about all of the recon and spec ops regiaments??? i mean.. look and the 81st(1st) (now back as tanith first and only? there are 3000 of them and who knows how many milita and other regiaments there are?? i know that the ultramar system have at LEAST six regiaments and that the volpone have their blubloods...

[Koppenflak]

"God created Earth in six days, and on the seventh he rested"

The problem with the above statement is that we didn't have a Gregorian Calendar by which to measure time until about 1580AD. For the religious out there, there are multiple interpretations of the statement - all of them valid, depending on your theological inclincations. A Roman Catholic may tell you a "Day" is merely a period of time. An evangelist Baptist may tell you that it's exactly 24 hours, backdateable and assured.

It's also worth noting that 40k has 'expanded' in terms of the scope of its fluff and the grasp of its own universe. Were we to take everything written in 40k's lengthy creative history as absolute canon, then by all rights, Lord High Inqusitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau is getting around the galaxy with an army of jetpack armed Imperial Guard veterans, all of whom possess beltpacks with multiple vortex grenades, deployable from the back of anti-grav Jet bikes, hunting down the traitorous factions of the ultramarines.

(Look the above up if you do not believe me... ;) )

The big problem with the argument is that all suggestions that the above may no longer be accurate relies on a retraction of the original author. Because of how Retcons work in literature - you will probably never get one, and the only 'retraction' you will ever see is a "reinterpretation" (or more detailed explanation) in subsequent texts.

I personally do not believe that the codex statement from ways back saying that there are only "10,000 storm troopers" is in any way accurate as to the 'true' intended figure of the current canon. 10,000^10... maybe.

(No doubt the scrivenor who wrote the ancient and revered document forgot to carry a one...)

[modelguyicmt]

The previous IG dex had half of the 8th lined up in parade formation. Company (Infantry)-- 6 Platoons of 6 squads of 10 men plus 5 man Command squad. 3 Support Weapon squads attached to Command. Then of course you can add sentinels, Heavy Weapons squads and maybe a Chimera or two, plus Commissars, Preachers, Psykers, ect. Then ~20 Companies per Regiment. A two page spread from the last IG dex- pgs 10-11. So, that's apprx 7,500 for a standard Cadian Regiment, which is considered the standard for an IG unit. Note that this figure is ACTUAL FRONTLINE UNITS, not including logistical/signals/staff,ect,ect,ect. BTW, LO is back online if you've been waiting the past 18 hrs like I have X/...

[Aknon]

Persoanlly in a Imperium with millions of worlds, billions/trillions of Guardsmen and god knows how many battlezones, the flow of orphans to the Schola Progenium is rich and plenty. If only a fraction of orphans are accepted, and only a fraction become elite troops (SOB/ST/Commisar/Arbites.) that number could still be in the billions given how large the Guard is.

On top of the number of IG orphans the scholam gets the orphans from all "imperial servants" (after all war doesn't just kill the military) although i'm fairly sure thay palm a lot of administrative clerk's children off into orphanages like the one one of Eisenhorn's team comes from