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thecactusman17
05-16-2010, 11:28 PM
Here's my list, sitting at a solid 2500 points exactly with minimal fat. This list came in 5th at my local 'Ard Boyz out of 16 with 38 points. I scored 4 (major loss +1), 11 (draw +1), and 23 (Massacre +3). Yes, that last one was against Dark Eldar. 19 to 44 in my favor. Steve's a great guy playing an army that just doesn't perform as well as he deserves.

Advice for improving this list or making subtle core changes for better optimization would be appreciated. To my mind, the only fat here is the Grey Knights. but even they are a fairly dependable unit great for tying stuff up in CC or bringing down MCs and light vehicles. Also, going through the math here, I realized that I'm actually 9 points under! And 9 points in sisters is an easily doable thing. Actually, I'm realizing that this is because I forgot a wargear option on the Seraphim, but they did fine for playing without it.

HQs
1. Canoness w/ combi-melta, Book of St. Lucius
--Retinue: 5x Celestians, 2x Melta Guns, veteran w/ Combi-flamer
----Immolator transport w/ Smoke, dozer blades, Holy Prometheum
253

2. Canoness w/ Blessed Weapon (+2S), Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Cloak of St. Aspira (2+Sv)
--Retinue: 5x Celestians, 2x Melta Guns, veteran w/ Combi-flamer
----Immolator transport w/ Smoke, dozer blades, Holy Prometheum
253

Elites
1. 6x Celestians, 2x Melta Guns, veteran w/ Combi-flamer
----Immolator transport w/ Smoke, dozer blades, Holy Prometheum
201

2. 5x Grey Knight Terminators, 2 psycannons
300

Troops

1. 10 Battle sisters. Veteran with Book of St. Lucius, Combi-flamer. meltagun, Heavy Flamer.
----Rhino, smoke launchers
214

2. 10 Battle sisters. Veteran with Book of St. Lucius, Combi-flamer. meltagun, Heavy Flamer.
----Rhino, smoke launchers
214

3. 10 Battle sisters. Veteran with Book of St. Lucius, Combi-flamer. meltagun, Heavy Flamer.
----Rhino, smoke launchers
214

4. 10 Battle sisters. Veteran with Book of St. Lucius, Combi-flamer. meltagun, Heavy Flamer.
----Rhino, smoke launchers
214

Fast Attack
1. 7 Seraphim. Veteran w/ Dual bolt pistols. Dual Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers
186

Heavy Support
1. Exorcist Tank
135

2. Exorcist Tank
135

3. Exorcist Tank
135

I've been thinking that a 5th unit of Sisters would be a great option for replacing the Knights, but right now I find myself either at a loss for funds or being unable to fine the models (and usually a bit of both).

Hugz4Genestealers
05-17-2010, 12:59 AM
On a rather unrelated note, you said you placed fifth. Is this advice then for future Ard Boyz endeavors, or are you advancing to the next round courtesy of others being unable/unwilling to do so themselves?

thecactusman17
05-17-2010, 06:43 AM
Dunno yet. But (A) I think it was cool that a 3rd edition codex could do pretty decent and (B) I want to try doing even better next year.

As it stands, I'm second in line if any of the top three decline regionals admission.

Fizzics
05-17-2010, 09:41 AM
On a mechanized list like this, you should really consider extra armor. Thats great that you have dozer blades for those terrain tests, but when your army has mainly short range shooting, if you can't drive across the field that you aren't going to win.

I would really suggest dropping the blades and picking up as much extra armor as you can. It is better to be able to move, and not shoot, than to not move and not shoot. Movement is what makes mech armies so scary right now. Keep that in mind.

Melissia
05-17-2010, 09:50 AM
Can you use IA rules in 'Ard Boyz?

Tynskel
05-17-2010, 10:11 AM
Can you use IA rules in 'Ard Boyz?

Nope. The rules state only codex, no supplements. :(

Melissia
05-17-2010, 10:14 AM
Ah, well that blows. Well, at least that means Extra Armor would be cheaper... though it's still cheaper to have an Imperial Armour Rhino with extra armor than to havee a C:WH one.

thecactusman17
05-17-2010, 02:54 PM
On a mechanized list like this, you should really consider extra armor. Thats great that you have dozer blades for those terrain tests, but when your army has mainly short range shooting, if you can't drive across the field that you aren't going to win.

I would really suggest dropping the blades and picking up as much extra armor as you can. It is better to be able to move, and not shoot, than to not move and not shoot. Movement is what makes mech armies so scary right now. Keep that in mind.

Let me restate this for why this is never a good idea even on 50 point rhinos (and mind you I've only come to this conclusion recently).

Here's the deal. You can only get a 2 on a very limited number of rolls. however, you can get a 1 on a number of different rolls and a six on a few less. This is becaue the way the numbers add/subtract and hit maximum value. So hitting anything in-between consistently is a bit of a crapshoot. yesterday, I had ONE vehicle in all three games that got a "can't move or shoot" damage token. However, I had multiple vehicles wrecked, exploded, immobilized, weapon destroyed, or "can't shoot"-ed. The way the damage modifiers work means that two and three are the rarest results on the chart. So in fact, having armor to negate an unusual damage result is less optimal than being right 35 out of 36 times that you can get your models wherever they need to on a critical rush forward. Especially, on Immolators where placement is critical for maximizing damage.

Nikephoros
05-17-2010, 03:24 PM
Needs more Immolators!

thecactusman17
05-17-2010, 06:25 PM
Needs more Immolators!

Not a bad idea. But aside from the gkts what would I remove or add?

If I dropped the seraphim I could add in either 2 more celestian squads or 1 and 1 battle sisters squad in a rhinoceros. Or as a huge blob.

Fizzics
05-17-2010, 07:23 PM
Let me restate this for why this is never a good idea even on 50 point rhinos (and mind you I've only come to this conclusion recently).

Here's the deal. You can only get a 2 on a very limited number of rolls. however, you can get a 1 on a number of different rolls and a six on a few less. This is becaue the way the numbers add/subtract and hit maximum value. So hitting anything in-between consistently is a bit of a crapshoot. yesterday, I had ONE vehicle in all three games that got a "can't move or shoot" damage token. However, I had multiple vehicles wrecked, exploded, immobilized, weapon destroyed, or "can't shoot"-ed. The way the damage modifiers work means that two and three are the rarest results on the chart. So in fact, having armor to negate an unusual damage result is less optimal than being right 35 out of 36 times that you can get your models wherever they need to on a critical rush forward. Especially, on Immolators where placement is critical for maximizing damage.

Let me tell you why you are wrong.

Assuming that you aren't being shot by something that modifies the damage chart (Ap1 or something else), you stand an equal chance of rolling any number on the damage chart. On a fair die, you cannot tell me that you are more likely to roll a 3 as opposed to a 2 or 1.

So saying


You can only get a 2 on a very limited number of rolls. however, you can get a 1 on a number of different rolls and a six on a few less. This is becaue the way the numbers add/subtract and hit maximum value. So hitting anything in-between consistently is a bit of a crapshoot.

(and not clarifying what you mean) is stupid. I know that you are meaning to talk about damage modifiers. But you need to be careful about what you are trying to say.

If you have extra armor, you are "weighting" the die so to speak. Now you stand a 2/6 or 1/3 or 33% chance of rolling a "1." Sounds like you should clarify what you are tying to say.

Now you specifically mention dealing with damage modifiers. Sure Ap1 makes it impossible to role a "1," but what about glancing hits? Which is still -1 on the chart with Ap1. What about Ap2 and a glancing hit?


The way the damage modifiers work means that two and three are the rarest results on the chart.

Now I can't really disagree with this. And that's cool +1 for not needing extra armor. But now we look at the points cost. It's 5 points which begs the question of why would you not want the armor when you aren't having to deal with modifiers?

it sounds to me like it is 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other, and at the points cost... I think it is a great deal.

Melissia
05-17-2010, 07:26 PM
Because it raises the cost of the rhino to fifty five.

That's a bit expensive for a Rhino.

thecactusman17
05-17-2010, 10:36 PM
Actually, it raises the cost to a minimum 58. I can accept playing without armor/dozer blades. But without smoke launchers? We're talking the difference between a kill point and victory points (or even none at all) here, it's a huge deal. It still stuns me how many players treat their rhinos as disposable when 1/3 of all games and 2/3 of all tournament missions just about everywhere offer rewards based on kill points or destroyed units.

here's a tip: more than half of those points I scored in round three Ard Boyz were raiders. Cheapest transport skimmer in the game, and he brought a whole mess of them. With an AP1 shot, you kill them on a 3 and harm the models inside on a 4.

I only killed one on his first turn after he turbo-boosted into my lines (note: I took second and placed EVERYTHING in reserve to deny him that crucial turn one slaught the DE can pull off at range)

If he relied more on his pair of darklance weilding troops in the back field and kept his vehicles zipping around, it's highly possible that I would have lost this match. A 4+ cover save + armor is absolutely NOT to be trifled with. I only gave up 19 kill points, which included 5 transports and a few infantry squads. Why so few actual casualties (by comparison, he took 44 and the average appears to have been 30+ for winners)? Because as soon as something couldn't shoot, pop went the smoke. And for a whole turn he was stuck trying to kill only models at full strength unless he wanted half of his damage rolls to be negated.

Fizziks, you'd be right if it weren't for an important factor: the current meta game is damage modifiers for vehicles. AP1 weapons and abilities pretty much fall like leaves out of most major codices right now. I've even seen a few AP- weapons hit the table! Besides lasguns, of course.

What this means is that a lot of weapons without 2d6 damage either glance light armor (10-11) or can barely pen heavy armor (13+). AV12 seems to be the "average" that a high strength weapon like a lascannon is designed to hit. Though a few armies are proving that everything counts in great amounts.

So this means a few things:

+1 on the chart is common in the current metagame
Even on the chart is about equally common
-1 on the chart is rare in most armies
-2 on the chart is uncommon but far from rare in most armies

Basically, the chances of rolling a 2 here are ultimately minimal. Far less likely after considering the results of multiple shots than the 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 in terrain.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on that.

So here's what I'm considering: Drop the GKTs, and then drop the Seraphim. Replace with the following:

1 unit Celestians (x6) with 2 meltaguns and a vet w/ a combi-flamer mounted in an Immolator with smoke, dozers, and holy Prometheum
201

1 unit battle sisters (x20)
2x meltaguns, veteran with an eviscerator and bolt pistol and Book of St. Lucius.
285

Works out to the smae amount of points. I also get an additional immolator AND an additional scoring unit that can reliably defend against all but the most powerful CC specialists and kill tanks as necessary. This isn't necessarily the most cost-efficient use of the army in the latter instance, but it's a rock hard wall of power armor and AP1 bolters that tends to annihilate most oncomers.

Fizzics
05-18-2010, 08:11 AM
much better argument..

aren't you worried about lawyering with the holy prometheum?

thecactusman17
05-18-2010, 04:33 PM
Lawyering? What's there to lawyer? You take a ld. test as though you lost 25% casualties the minute you take a wound. It's RIGHT THERE in the codex.